Pit bulls maul pony in CT - link to story

[innisfreed]

This is very sad. I don't know why someone would own dogs like this.
All dogs can bite, but these dogs were predators. Thank god no child was hurt or killed.

Some of the article comments say that it's the owners, not the dog. The owners weren't with the dogs, and one doesn't teach a dog "not to kill ponies". Either it's in their nature or it's not. My collies would never attack my horses but it's not something I had to TEACH them. :(

http://www.newstimes.com/latestnews/ci_12049915

[Crooked Horse]

Great actions taken by the postal carrier and the responding police officer!

My pittie is afraid of horses...my gelding wanted to say hi to her last night and you should have seen her put it in reverse! Every dog is different, regardless of the breed.

[MistyBlue]

Excellent jobs done by the mail carrier and officer though! I give him kudos for beating the dogs off. And that would indicate that the dogs weren't acting abnormal for their breed because they're supposed to be animal aggressive and not human aggressive. Few other breeds would take a beating and not turn on the person. And the owner was apologetic...good for him.
Most likely we'll hear the dogs never did any such thing and they probably didn't. But does go to show that animal aggression is not bred out of all of them and they're just plain unpredictable around other animals. Attacking repeatedly during a chase without making a noise is a fatal attack in the making and not an "excited about the chase" attack. :no:
Glad to hear the horse will survive, hopes it's injuries aren't too bad.

[WorthTheWait95]

Most likely we'll hear the dogs never did any such thing and they probably didn't. .

:confused::confused::confused:

I don't get it....sounds like there were many witnesses. Or were you referring to something else?

[Guin]

Horrible! That poor pony. If he recovers, I bet he'll be shell-shocked for months. Forget about ever bringing him near any kind of dog ever again.

I'd have hugged the mail carrier, too.

[Trakehner]

"Most likely we'll hear the dogs never did any such thing and they probably didn't"

According to one of the commentors in the story...these dogs had attacked animals in the past and killed one...all in the last 4 weeks.

Sorry, bloody dogs should have been shot the first attack. Some breeds don't deserve a "one bite" rule...bite = dead dog. If a human's attacked, the owner should go to jail for having a dangerous weapon.

[MistyBlue]

I don't get it....sounds like there were many witnesses. Or were you referring to something else?
My mistake...I meant to say "never did anything like this before." Not that they didn't actually do it this time.
Trak, was the commentary about past issues like this in a video, I don't remember reading that in the story.
If they did have past histories....there's no reason they should have been left alive. Period. Because obviously the owners weren't vigilant enough to keep them fenced in, fences are 100% unless 10' tall and hot and set in concrete so they can't dig out and if the dogs ran past the owner when s/he opened the gait and didn't obey a call back then they were piss-poor trained. If the owners didn't call the dogs back, they were piss poor owners. And if it was that nobody noticed them missing for a time they're also piss-poor owners.
Disturbing whatever the scenerio was. :no:

[Sansena]

I've had some indirect contact w/Billy's owners. She states the dogs jumped out of their 4' fenced yard.

Billy seems to be doing remarkably well, considering his ordeal. And he's quite the sweetheart...
...............
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[LaurieB]

I hope the dogs' owner ends up with an absolutely freakin' enormous vet bill to nurse that pony back to full health.

[twobays]

Any dogs that rush their own owner and then attempt to run a pony into the ground need to be put down, like yesterday.

[BaroquePony]

Billy seems like a really nice pony. Love his color. I hope his eye heals up alright.

I am so tired of the dangerous dog issues in America. These dogs were bred to fit in pits and fight to the death. I don't really care how sweet some of them are with responsible owners, their breeding is an issue. It is genetic and they are hard wired to fight aggressively. They should be considered a leathal weapon and the owners should be held responsible for the actions of their dogs and damage to another's property.

[MistyBlue]

Sansena...the dogs were two pits. The owner also has a boxer. The two pits have killed 2 cats and are responsible for 3 more attacks in the lst 16 days. The owner of them has a construction company and he keeps the pits as "property protection dogs." And they are pits according to animal control who went out on the other calls. The entire Candlewood Hills community have been trying to get those dogs seized for weeks now, other pet and livestock owners have been terrorized by these two dogs. :no: (just made a quick phone call to verify)

[corgigirl14]

That poor pony! Those dogs should be put down immediately. Don't get me wrong I am a dog person but that type of behavior is not acceptable. I don't care if this is the first offense or not. Those dogs had one thing on their mind and that was to KILL. You can't "rehab" that type of mentality in any breed of canine. Those dogs are a liability to not only the owners but to anyone who lives nearby. I know I would have no problem putting a bullet in those dog's heads. I hope the pony heals up and takes his young owner on many more rides! Kuddos to the police officer and the mail carrier. I would be taking them out for a nice steak dinner!!

[Riley0522]

Sansena...the dogs were two pits. The owner also has a boxer. The two pits have killed 2 cats and are responsible for 3 more attacks in the lst 16 days. The owner of them has a construction company and he keeps the pits as "property protection dogs." And they are pits according to animal control who went out on the other calls. The entire Candlewood Hills community have been trying to get those dogs seized for weeks now, other pet and livestock owners have been terrorized by these two dogs. :no: (just made a quick phone call to verify)

This owner is clearly an uneducated dog owner and probably shouldn't have owned the Pits in the first place. Yes, Pits were bred to fight and have dog aggression, but they were also bred to have absolutely NO human aggression. Pits make TERRIBLE guard dogs as most (even trained fighters) would much rather lick a person to death than attack. I'm sick of people blaming the dogs for doing something instinctual (aka having a prey drive), why don't we look at the OWNER who should have kept these dogs properly contained and didn't? And it's not just the American Pit Bull Terrier that has a natural prey drive, it's most terriers...

My 3 Pits don't look twice at any of the horses I've had them around. Two of them are actually terrified to get within 100ft of the horses.

Hope the pony makes a full recovery and the owner of the dogs pays for every cent of the vet bills, and also never owns an APBT again.

[SarahandSam]

The dogs I'd like to see humanely euthanized; the owners I'd like to see shot. I know so many responsible people with pit bulls who do everything right with them, and then I find out about a hundred more people that are irresponsible and ruin the breed. I teach in the inner-city and although the kids know better than to talk about dog fighting to me now, I know they know about it and see it regularly. Lots of them are terrified of dogs because all they know are "mean pits" that drug dealers keep for "protection" or fighting; those are the people breeding those dogs and not caring for/socializing them properly, and then down the road when they end up in shelters, they can't be adopted because they're so messed up and nobody wants to take a chance rehabbing a dog that could kill your other pets or yourself. So dogs that might have had a chance to have a happy, friendly life don't get it because of ignorant people, and rescues can't find responsible owners anymore who are willing to take that kind of chance.

Man, the more I hear about humans the more I really do love my pets.

[MistyBlue]

Update on the story:
http://www.newstimes.com/ci_12059210

[innisfreed]

Unbelievable. I mean, as a libertarian, I am all for freedoms, but it is ridiculous that someone can get their dogs back after multiple attacks. The community that these dogs live in is densely populated (<0.5 acre lots) and has many children. I am terrified that a child or elderly person will be next. I love the Dog Whisperer too, but the truth is that he has the red zonew dogs for a reason - they don't go back to the owners in most cases. You need to devote so much time and careful energy to owning a dog like that, and most people don't have time or dedicate for that.

It's a shame when these beasts were running down the double-line state highway to get to the pony's property, that they managed to escape getting hit by cars. I am not, but if I were neighbors of these dogs, they would be finding some delicious warfarin in their pens.

(these were pit bulls, not another nully breed - someone earlier seemed to have some misinformation).

[Boomer]

I have two pit bull mixes - they were strays that showed up on the farm. One 8 months old the other about 1.5 years.

They don't bother the horses unless they are running or rolling - it really gets them wired to chase. So, they are behind a fence at all times.

There is just too much risk/liability to let them out. If they took out my neighbor's calves my neighbor would've finished the job the old fashioned way - which I couldn't blame him for.

I would feel that putting them down would be my only option if they mauled someone's animals. I hope I never have to stand in those shoes.

There was a pony that got killed in NC when I lived there years ago by dogs running loose. They were not pitbulls, so it is possible that any breed can be deadly when uncontrolled.

A 4' fence just doesn't seem high enough to keep gaurd animals in. My guys could easily go over that.

[MistyBlue]

Good for you Boomer for being safe and containing your dogs and not having Breed Blindness.
I personally have nothing against a good pit or pit cross. Not a thing. They're very loveable goofballs. But....very very very few people get them from long term professional breeders who have made sure their animals have the proper personalities bred into them as much as possible.
The vast majority of pits are rescues or bought from newspaper ads or from a friend of a friend. While that doesn't make them ALL bad it does mean that not a single one was bred for generations to have the best possible traits. Most of the ones around today are not the ones we had as fantastic family pets in the 50s. Given the purpose of the breed, badly bred or ones bred willy nilly have a much higher chance of being unpredictable. Add in that many owners (not counting thugs, regular families) do not ever believe their dogs have any possibility of ever acting badly so do not train them properly (a lifelong thing, not just a few tricks as pups and then you're done) or keep them properly contained because "Poopsie" would never do that!
I do blame the dogs and the owners in cases like this. Bred by the uninformed and sold/adopted/given to the irresponsible. Bad combo. And yes, I know many people who have rescue ones and the owners are beyond excellent dog owners and have still had them go after something totally out of the blue. You can never predict behavior on ill bred dogs. Look at all the badly bred goldens and labs...well bred ones aren't obedience nightmares until they're too old to act up. But overbreeding due to popularity has made for some dingbat freaking dogs out there. Who bite a lot. Same with other breeds. It's just that other breeds weren't genetically selectively invented for mauling things. It's not an inherently bad pit that attacks/mauls...it's a badly bred dog. And a potential time bomb.
I have a niece who has a pit...and a farm. Her pit is never ever off leash outside. Ever. He was a rescue and she knows he can never be trusted and won't take the chance. Why set him up for possible failure? He does cause some damage with that happy wagging tail of his...ouch! :winkgrin:

[vacation1]

Poor pony and poor cat, jeez. I'm not a cat person, but I sometimes wonder where's the sanity in dog owners, that we tend to blithely accept that dogs prey on cats as 'normal.' It doesn't have to be. If we can create breeds of dog that don't bark, are willing to tackle lions or that can't breathe because their faces are completely flat, we should be able to eradicate the desire to kill cats. Or other dogs or animals, come to that.

Sansena...the dogs were two pits. The owner also has a boxer. The two pits have killed 2 cats and are responsible for 3 more attacks in the lst 16 days.

Typical. As long as the dogs don't attack people, it's very, very difficult in most suburban or urban areas to have anything done about attacks on animals. It sucks, and it's a mistake. Sooner or later, a dog who attacks another animal is going to bite a person who is trying to defend the animal. But law enforcement and the courts don't seem to get this; a lot of dogs who attack humans have a history of aggression toward other animals, and a history of the owner getting his/her wrist slapped for it.

And it's not just the American Pit Bull Terrier that has a natural prey drive, it's most terriers...

There's prey drive, then there's prey drive backed up by a physical being that can withstand massive physical violence and a mental state deliberately created to arouse into fight mode and stay aroused despite discouragement that would end most dog's desire to engage. Trying to reduce the issue of pit bulls as being simply a matter of 'prey drive' is misleading, at best.

I find the whole idea of using drives to explain away bad behavior in dogs to be bizarre anyway. The basic argument may be sound, but it completely ignores that dogs aren't just pure instinct, that our entire history with dogs is about mental and emotional interaction and adaptation.

edit to add - a 4' fence is not high enough if the dogs are getting out. Many dogs can climb higher than this. I had a mix who could climb six feet, jump five feet, and climb trees.

[MistyBlue]

At least here in CT we have the legal right to kill any dog chasing, worrying, harassing or injuring domestic animals or livestock. The owner of the problem dog has zero legal recourse on that and *also* must pay for any loss of animal or damage done and vet bills. That law extends to owners of land/animals that were attacked/chased, law enforcement, AC, etc.
Unfortunately...if the dogs aren;t killed in the process or immediately after (owner/LEO catches dog on property and then destroys them) then the issue must be determined by a judge in court. :no: I think it should be that after the fact the owner can request that LEO or AC take immediate possession of the dogs and have them euthanized. (not that the owner can go to the dog's house and demand to shoot them or anything like that)
But CT does not allow dogs to bother ANY other animal, pet or livestock, and live if the owner or a police officer or ACO decides to shoot it in the act or while still off it's own property.
In this case the horse owners should be able to take the owner to court to force euthanizing them, they're legally allowed to. I hope they do.
And almost ALL dogs have prey drive...instinctual chase. Something moves fast, most breeds will give chase without even thinking. Very very few will attack. Herding dogs chase all day and have an excessively powerful prey drive, but are controlled and don't bite/maul. There is a killing drive too...which is what terriers have. It's genetically bred into them to kill stuff, not chase it or find it or point to it or herd it. Try calling a JRT off a rat. Pits were selectively and genetically made to fight/bite/maul. It's the exception to the breed to find one without this instinct ingrained. And it's the exception to find an owner who accepts this 100% and has the proper socializing, containment, control and training for the animal. Just because it lives with children and cats and kisses everyone and is happy go lucky does not mean it will not act like it's genetically predisposed to ever.
The dogs can be fine...if all the owners stopped getting them from rescues/careless breeders and then not handling them correctly because they're breed blind. "Oh mine never would!" is not an excuse and doesn;t change reality. The proper mindset is "Mine is capable of it and even though it's not likely I will make sure it never ever has the chance to even try it." I've had issue breeds my entire life...by accepting them for what they are and acting accordingly at all times there wasn't ever any issues with a single one. And I've wildlife and wildlife crosses...the responsibility is MUCH higher with certain breeds and owners cannot close their minds due to their perception of their own dog.

[Jealoushe]

This makes me so sad. That poor pony was probably such a good boy, and to have to go through that crap. It breaks my heart. Then you have these 2 beasts terrorizing the neighbourhood and they have no injuries, no pain, and get to home to a nice cozy bed.

The owners are appologetic? Sorry ISN'T good enough.

Whoever said it is right, it will be a human soon.

sad, brutal, and uneccessary!

[gieriscm]

Breed is irrelevant in this case; the dogs should have been put down months ago. Read comment #38 in the second article - this is not the first time the dogs have attacked a horse. That attack just wasn't reported in the news.

[VAHorseGurl]

Regardless of being the owner of 3 Pit bulls who I love dearly and will do anything to protect from themselves, and one of them very highly prey driven; I will not sit back and condone what the owner of these dog's has been allowed to get away with for the last few weeks. :mad:

There is no reason those dogs should be allowed to live, you find them on your property, shoot and ask questions later!!! You have a right to protect your livestock and other pets! And WHO in their right mind thinks a 4foot fence is enough to contain these type of dogs. TRUE IGNORANCE and a risk to the community!!

As for using those dogs as Protection, that right there says the Construction owner is an Ignorant individual and doesn't know the history of this breed. They are NOT protection dogs, nor have they ever been used as such successfully. They are hunters and fighters by nature/breeding and regardless of breeding away from prey drive, it will always be there.

I really dislike folks like this Pit owner, it makes it harder for Pit owners like myself to own this breed and not have folks like some of you here look down your nose at me for MY choice to do so. :mad:

[anita m]

I guess since it wasn't proven that the cat was killed by the dogs, and the attack on the pony is the first on the record, the owner gets a slap on the wrist and he gets to keep his dogs. What's the fine for the misdemeanor, anyone know? I hope it is steep. I would be fearful is I owned any sort of animal, pet, or livestock if I lived in the area. What a nightmare. And WHY, when the dogs escaped on the two occasions THAT WE KNOW OF (I'm sure there have been many others) did the stupidass owners apparently not even bother to go out looking for them? F-ing morons.

[Riley0522]

Good for you Boomer for being safe and containing your dogs and not having Breed Blindness.
I personally have nothing against a good pit or pit cross. Not a thing. They're very loveable goofballs. But....very very very few people get them from long term professional breeders who have made sure their animals have the proper personalities bred into them as much as possible.
The vast majority of pits are rescues or bought from newspaper ads or from a friend of a friend. While that doesn't make them ALL bad it does mean that not a single one was bred for generations to have the best possible traits. Most of the ones around today are not the ones we had as fantastic family pets in the 50s. Given the purpose of the breed, badly bred or ones bred willy nilly have a much higher chance of being unpredictable. Add in that many owners (not counting thugs, regular families) do not ever believe their dogs have any possibility of ever acting badly so do not train them properly (a lifelong thing, not just a few tricks as pups and then you're done) or keep them properly contained because "Poopsie" would never do that!
I do blame the dogs and the owners in cases like this. Bred by the uninformed and sold/adopted/given to the irresponsible. Bad combo. And yes, I know many people who have rescue ones and the owners are beyond excellent dog owners and have still had them go after something totally out of the blue. You can never predict behavior on ill bred dogs. Look at all the badly bred goldens and labs...well bred ones aren't obedience nightmares until they're too old to act up. But overbreeding due to popularity has made for some dingbat freaking dogs out there. Who bite a lot. Same with other breeds. It's just that other breeds weren't genetically selectively invented for mauling things. It's not an inherently bad pit that attacks/mauls...it's a badly bred dog. And a potential time bomb.
I have a niece who has a pit...and a farm. Her pit is never ever off leash outside. Ever. He was a rescue and she knows he can never be trusted and won't take the chance. Why set him up for possible failure? He does cause some damage with that happy wagging tail of his...ouch! :winkgrin:

This is a great post. I am 100% with you that they are badly bred dogs and breed is pretty much irrelevant. So many people can't see past the label "Pit Bull", but really any dog can attack with an intent to kill if it is poorly bred. I, myself, have seen many poorly bred labs/goldens/my mom's Old English that were backyard bred and do not think twice about aggressing at a human or another animal, and then redirect back on the person that tries to stop them.

I have 3 rescued Pits, and one that was suspected to come from a fighting ring. She is a GREAT dog, and awesome with her pack and dogs she knows, but I would never let her off leash at a dog park, or unsupervised with other animals for that matter. We know she hates cats, and would maul one if given the chance, so she is never around small animals unsupervised. With us, she's great...very intelligent dog, and we have put a lot of time into her training. She is the most loyal dog I've ever owned and would do anything to please us. She loves EVERYONE (human-wise) and I trust her 100% with anybody...even young children. Does that mean I'd leave her alone with a kid? Of course not, but then again no animal should be left alone with a child...an animal is a living being with their own brain!

This makes me so sad. That poor pony was probably such a good boy, and to have to go through that crap. It breaks my heart. Then you have these 2 beasts terrorizing the neighbourhood and they have no injuries, no pain, and get to home to a nice cozy bed.

The owners are appologetic? Sorry ISN'T good enough.

Whoever said it is right, it will be a human soon.

sad, brutal, and uneccessary!

I actually doubt it will be a human next. These dogs were fought off by a human and did not aggress back - which is true to their breed nature. They have been bred for centuries not to be human aggressive, even in the heat of a fight.

That does not dismiss the fact that they have a high prey drive and have proven to attack on multiple occasions and are clearly not in a home that should be owning Pit Bulls since they have allowed the dogs to aggress on multiple occasions. In the right home, these dogs probably could be great, but obviously not in their current home and if that is their only option, they should be humanely euthanized.

[SaturdayNightLive]

I haven't read the whole thread, mostly because I'm tired of reading thread after thread of the COTH Death Squad yelling for something to be put down, but I can't help but be curious about something...

Is there some sort of double standard with dogs? Because it seems like there is. What I mean is, for example, you have two dogs: Dog A is a pit bull, typical of the breed, very friendly with people but with a high prey drive. Dog B is a Shiba Inu, also with a high prey drive. Say Dog A is the pit bull in the news story and he attacks the pony. You all want him shot. Say Dog B attacks and kills the neighbors pet bunny. Do you want him shot too? I'm just confused about the logic here... Is it not okay for dogs to act on instinct at all? Or is it okay as long as it's not around someone's horse?

Now I do think that the owners of the dogs are the responsible party in this story, but I don't see the logic behind putting the dogs down. They were acting on instinct, and it's not as if they attacked a person.

[VAHorseGurl]

I haven't read the whole thread, mostly because I'm tired of reading thread after thread of the COTH Death Squad yelling for something to be put down, but I can't help but be curious about something...

Is there some sort of double standard with dogs? Because it seems like there is. What I mean is, for example, you have two dogs: Dog A is a pit bull, typical of the breed, very friendly with people but with a high prey drive. Dog B is a Shiba Inu, also with a high prey drive. Say Dog A is the pit bull in the news story and he attacks the pony. You all want him shot. Say Dog B attacks and kills the neighbors pet bunny. Do you want him shot too? I'm just confused about the logic here... Is it not okay for dogs to act on instinct at all? Or is it okay as long as it's not around someone's horse?

Now I do think that the owners of the dogs are the responsible party in this story, but I don't see the logic behind putting the dogs down. They were acting on instinct, and it's not as if they attacked a person.

I do not consider myself apart of the COTH death squad as you put it. However, the reasoning behind my feelings is that these dogs were not protected from themselves.

That being said, they were allowed to run free of responsibility by the owner. They were 'At Large' on someone elses property and causing damage to someone else's property.

And Yes, if Dog A got out and killed neighbor's bunny, if first offense, owner should pay compensation to owner of killed bunny and a large fine for allowing Dog A to run 'At Large' and terrorize the community. Should Dog A 'escape', 'get out', 'jump said fence' a second time, the dog (for the protection of the community) should be put down because the owner is irresponsible enough NOT to protect the dog and the community.

[Ambrey]

They were not poorly bred- they were bred that way on purpose. People knew exactly what they were doing when they bred for viciousness in a dog with the physical ability to do a great deal of damage.

[MistyBlue]

Is there some sort of double standard with dogs? Because it seems like there is. What I mean is, for example, you have two dogs: Dog A is a pit bull, typical of the breed, very friendly with people but with a high prey drive. Dog B is a Shiba Inu, also with a high prey drive. Say Dog A is the pit bull in the news story and he attacks the pony. You all want him shot. Say Dog B attacks and kills the neighbors pet bunny. Do you want him shot too? I'm just confused about the logic here... Is it not okay for dogs to act on instinct at all? Or is it okay as long as it's not around someone's horse?


A dog that attacks and kills any other animal without a command or training to do so, especially someone else's pet..needs to be fined, contained and second strike done.
Because a common fallacy is that a dog with a high prey drive is acting normal killing stuff. It's not. (disregarding dogs specifically bred and trained for certain types of hunting) If this was true then there would be countless attacks and deaths of other animals all the time from almost all breeds except for toy breeds. Any dog has a prey drive because all dogs are carnivorous and are genetically programmed to find and obtain meat. A properly bred, properly handled and properly trained dog of any breed will not attack and kill pet bunnies, cats, goats or horses. Period. Because the right owner will not allow that. The right owner lets them know it's okay to go after varmints like rats or opossums and will correct bad unwanted behavior.
2 pits (or Shibas, chows, GSDs, whatevers) systematically chasing down and attacking a horse is NOT normal prey drive. The prey is too large...ever see a JRT (who have an extremely high kill drive for rodents) go after and try to take down a hog? or large goat? Or Donkey? Probably not.
And in a perfect world all animals everywhere would act exactly like they should in our imaginations. In real life...with irresponsible owners...they don't. So these dogs aren't euthed. Their owners aren't going to be 100% watchful for the rest of those dogs' lives. Next summer the pony is healed, the now 10 year old owner is riding and the dogs get out...remember how much fun it was chasing the pony and go after it again. Do you think the child will get injured or worse on a freaking out pony with 2 pit bulls hanging off of it? But hey...at least the scary mean ol' Death Squad didn't humanely end the poor widdle doggies lives. :rolleyes:
Real world isn't the same as Perfect World. We do the best we can to remain humane and keep up welfare standards...and we avoid possibly catastrophic happenings.

[SaturdayNightLive]

.at least the scary mean ol' Death Squad didn't humanely end the poor widdle doggies lives. :rolleyes:


Easy killer, I was just asking a question. No need to get sarcastic and nasty.

The COTH Death Squad thing isn't exactly limited to this thread you know, and it surely doesn't apply to everyone. However, it does seem to be a trend with some who post here to suggest euthing anything that breathes. I guess some people have different standards for what constitutes a capital offense.

[Jealoushe]

SNL - if that little fluffy dog you mentioned attacked a horse I'm sure the death squad would be saying the same thing.

Any dog who is constantly attacking neighbourhood animals needs a new home - either in heaven or somewhere where someone can properly keep it out of trouble.

[Huntertwo]

I actually doubt it will be a human next. These dogs were fought off by a human and did not aggress back - which is true to their breed nature. They have been bred for centuries not to be human aggressive, even in the heat of a fight.



:confused: Then why do I constantly either read or see it on the news where a Pit savaged a small child or even a grown adult?

[MistyBlue]

Easy killer, I was just asking a question. No need to get sarcastic and nasty.

The COTH Death Squad thing isn't exactly limited to this thread you know, and it surely doesn't apply to everyone. However, it does seem to be a trend with some who post here to suggest euthing anything that breathes. I guess some people have different standards for what constitutes a capital offense.
Sarcasm was meant, but not in a nasty way. More of being exasperated. I can't understand wanting to keep alive dangerous animals with a serious history of repeated attacks. especially when the chances of it happening again are very high and the chance that a child can most definitely get injured or even killed if another attack happens is to me and most of the world a much larger problem than two dogs being humanely euthanized. Dogs do not think in terms of life and death as people do. One minute they'll be alive, next they'll be asleep, next they'll be no more. The dogs won't care no matter how much we anthromorphized their feelings.
And it's extremely sad and upsetting when animals have to be destroyed due to being dangerous. But it's still necessary. And it's the right thing to do.
To refer to folks as being part of a "Death Squad" just for being responsibly minded and realistic is insulting. And to then expound on that with "However, it does seem to be a trend with some who post here to suggest euthing anything that breathes" is being a tad overly emotional and quite a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? Or do you truly believe folks just want anything breathing to be destroyed?
How would you feel if those pits were rehomed through a rescue to a home near you? And even to a responsible oowner...at this point a future attack is pretty much a given. And very few owners of any type can be 100% vigilant 100% of the time. Now you're walking your own dog, these dogs got out and they attack and kill your dog while you're holding it's leash? You find out they had a history of animal attacks...do you now want them humanely euthanized or do you want them rehabbed again, rehomed again and give someone somewhere else the possibility of the same thing happening to them? It wasn't a one time excited chase where they bit the horse a time or two nipping at it. They quietly and systematically pursued and attacked it, they've done the same with other animals and another horse and killed at least one cat. The history states they should have been destroyed. No matter how sad that is...it's the mature and responsible thing to do.

[Ambrey]

SNL - if that little fluffy dog you mentioned attacked a horse I'm sure the death squad would be saying the same thing.

Any dog who is constantly attacking neighbourhood animals needs a new home - either in heaven or somewhere where someone can properly keep it out of trouble.

The double standard comes into play when people see the kind of damage one breed can do vs. another when they DO act on those instincts. The Shiba Inu can get the neighbor's bunny- ok, keep him away from small animals. But an animal that can take down a horse? How do you keep the world safe from that?

A dog bites the mailman and the mailman needs 7 stitches- OK, keep that dog away from strangers. A dog mauls and kills someone? Yikes.

[Riley0522]

:confused: Then why do I constantly either read or see it on the news where a Pit savaged a small child or even a grown adult?

Because they have idiotic owners that leave them unattended with their children or who train them to be vicious. As I said before, Pit Bulls are very loyal and will do anything to serve their human, and while human aggression is not a breed characteristic, there are plenty of monsters out there who do train these dogs to be vicious towards human beings (ie: gang bangers, drug dealers, etc). It's not the Pit Bulls fault that many people who probably shouldn't procreate or own an animal choose to "own" them because they look tough. The sad reality is there are many more bad, inept Pit Bull owners than good ones. The Labrador simply doesn't cut it in the 'hood if you know what I mean.

Plenty of Golden Retrievers, Labs, Huskies, Akitas, German Sheperds, Poodles etc ALSO maul children and adults, you just don't see it because the people that own these dogs aren't nearly as unqualified dog owners as a lot of those that own pits, and when these attacks happen they rarely specify breed, it's just labeled "DOG ATTACK."

[Riley0522]

The double standard comes into play when people see the kind of damage one breed can do vs. another when they DO act on those instincts. The Shiba Inu can get the neighbor's bunny- ok, keep him away from small animals. But an animal that can take down a horse? How do you keep the world safe from that?

A dog bites the mailman and the mailman needs 7 stitches- OK, keep that dog away from strangers. A dog mauls and kills someone? Yikes.


The same way you keep the Shiba Inu from the bunny, put it behind a fence or on a leash. It's really not rocket science. And I like how you state we have to keep the world safe from a dog that can take down a horse...the world isn't in danger, maybe horses yes, but it is just as easy to keep the Pit Bull that doesn't like horses away from horses as it is to keep the Shiba Inu away from rabbits that doesn't like rabbits.

And there are many breeds of dog that could easily take down a horse, so please tell me how we keep the world safe from Rottweilers, any Mastiff, Great Danes, St. Bernards, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Irish Wolf Hounds, etc???

I'm really not trying to be rude and hope I don't come off that way, it's just so sad that the media loves to prey on Pit Bulls. I whole-heartedly agree that they are not a dog for just anyone, and they require a lot of training, but in the right hands they are fabulous, loving pets...even rescues who have been rehabbed. I don't believe they're the only breed of dog that requires an experienced hand either. It just sucks that people look at the dog as the problem, when in most cases it's the owner's fault and most of these owners are just not good/educated dog owners and they have a Pit Bull - really bad combo. Instead of attacking the breed, I wish more people would be open-minded and help those of us who love the breed educate the public. These dogs are falsely idolized in the wrong eyes and used for the wrong purposes, but those that are human aggressive are MADE to be that way by a human. In my mind, if they are aggressive towards other animals, they don't need to be euthed, they just need a much more experienced home...just because they have animal aggression doesn't necessarily make them a bad dog.

[Ambrey]

And there are many breeds of dog that could easily take down a horse, so please tell me how we keep the world safe from Rottweilers, any Mastiff, Great Danes, St. Bernards, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Irish Wolf Hounds, etc???

When they start roaming in packs and attacking people's ponies, I'm sure that will be something the public will concern themselves about.

[Jealoushe]

The double standard comes into play when people see the kind of damage one breed can do vs. another when they DO act on those instincts. The Shiba Inu can get the neighbor's bunny- ok, keep him away from small animals. But an animal that can take down a horse? How do you keep the world safe from that?

A dog bites the mailman and the mailman needs 7 stitches- OK, keep that dog away from strangers. A dog mauls and kills someone? Yikes.

Hey, I agree with you. I just wanted to point out that the death camp on CoTH aren't breed biased for the most part.

[paohatch]

Mistyblue says ...systematically chasing down and attacking a horse is NOT normal prey drive. The prey is too large...ever see a JRT (who have an extremely high kill drive for rodents) go after and try to take down a hog? or large goat? Or Donkey? Probably not.
And in a perfect world all animals everywhere would act exactly like they should in our imaginations.

Years ago my mother had a pet sheep. She put a dog collar on it, staked it on a long rope and moved the stake around the 4 acre yard. It was a lawnmower and a pet :). Then one day, a pack of neighborhood dogs, led by a golden retriever and collie ran the poor thing down and ripped its throat off. The neighbors confronted with the bloody evidence on their dog and the carcass said "Are you sure? My little poopsie.. yes..I'll admit that he/she was loose.. but he/she would never do such a horrid thing." Something about sheep/fear element brings out the wild in a dog running in a pack.

[Riley0522]

When they start roaming in packs and attacking people's ponies, I'm sure that will be something the public will concern themselves about.

Or the media will report it as a Pit Bull attack just like when 2 Mastiffs left unattended with a 12 year old mauled him to death...they instantly became Pit Bulls. I like the media magic there.

[arabhorse2]

When they start roaming in packs and attacking people's ponies, I'm sure that will be something the public will concern themselves about.

Ambrey, a Great Dane doesn't need to be in a pack to do major damage.

My girl, who is about average size for a female Dane, weighs 140 lbs.

In some places Great Danes are on the restricted/dangerous animal list because they're so huge, and being sight hounds will chase livestock.

Dane females are also notorious for not allowing another female dog of any breed anywhere in what they construe as their territory. They can and will rip another female to shreds.

I love my girl, but if she got loose and took down or injured any of the neighbors' animals, I'd expect them to shoot her. Here in my part of VA it's SSS, and too bad so sad.

Which is why I keep Lexi either on a very strong tie out, or on a leash when she's outside. I love my dog, and I don't want something to happen to her through my own ignorance and negligence.

[VAHorseGurl]

:confused: Then why do I constantly either read or see it on the news where a Pit savaged a small child or even a grown adult?

First off, 6 out of 10 times, a dog's breed is improperly ID'd because it has a blocky head and has mauled a human, it's very obviously just has to be a Pit bull. :rolleyes:

Generally speaking, most TV anchors couldn't tell you what the physical characteristics of a Pit bull is, just what they've seen, like yourself, labeled a Pit bull.

And just because these dog's have attacked other animals does not mean their next 'obvious' target is a human. Human aggression and Animal aggression are ENTIRELY different issues. :uhoh:

[Aubreyyy]

I love dogs, and have met many Pits that were great pets.

However, I have also heard of about 4 getting PTS for various agression issues. One was just a couple of months ago- a friend had to put down a younger rescue because after a year she started attacking her larger male QUITE viciously. I've never heard of anyone else with any other kind of breed have to be PTS from that kind of agression.

The problem with Pits is that they have the "bite" to back up the bark. My parents dog is the most insane little dog ever- if she were a larger dog, she would not be alive. She barks and bites and is terrible to be around if you aren't in her "family", but she only weighs 10lbs so its manageable.

[arabhorse2]

I've never heard of anyone else with any other kind of breed have to be PTS from that kind of agression.

There are quite a few Danes put down for aggression with other dogs and people.

Some factors seem to be age and neurologically related, but it can also be how the puppy was treated once it left its mother.

As far as those yippy-snippy, nasty, bitey little dogs? Those things need to have the same standards applied to them as to larger dogs. Aggression in a dog of any size is intolerable.

A 10 lb. dog can do a heck of a lot of damage to a baby or small child. It's inexcusable to let that dog act the way she does. Your parents are opening themselves up for a major lawsuit.

[VAHorseGurl]

The double standard comes into play when people see the kind of damage one breed can do vs. another when they DO act on those instincts. The Shiba Inu can get the neighbor's bunny- ok, keep him away from small animals. But an animal that can take down a horse? How do you keep the world safe from that?

A dog bites the mailman and the mailman needs 7 stitches- OK, keep that dog away from strangers. A dog mauls and kills someone? Yikes.

You do realize that any large breed dog has the ability to take down a horse? Not just a Pit bull.

And yes, I know exactly where you will go with that... I cannot say I've ever seen any other breed of dog make the news for having taken down a horse. But that does not mean it has not happened. There are a number of reasons why it didn't make the news, one is the most obvious, it wasn't a Pit bull so it wasn't sensationally news worthy. :sigh:

I don't want this Construction owner owning this breed anymore than any of you want this breed on this earth. It's ignorance like this guy is displaying that makes it hard for those of us responsible enough to own and who choose to own this breed. YES, those dogs either need to be rehomed with a more responsible owner or humanely euthenized.

Please understand, that for the outrageous number of 'killer' Pits out there, there are just as many if not more Productive Pits. Search & Rescue, Police Dogs (both narcatics and bomb detection among other things), Therapy dogs(YES, therapy Pit bulls for both the elderly and child), Agility titled, Dock Diving titled, Comfirmation titled, Weight Pulling titled, and the list goes on.

While none of mine are overly productive, other than loving and being loyal to me, they should have the right to live in peace and not the fear of being Banned because a select few HUMANs are ignorant enough not to pay close attention when owning this breed.

Put the blame where it lies, with the HUMAN who fails to protect their dog and the Public at large from their breed of choice.

[Aubreyyy]

Aggression in a dog of any size is intolerable.

A 10 lb. dog can do a heck of a lot of damage to a baby or small child. It's inexcusable to let that dog act the way she does. Your parents are opening themselves up for a major lawsuit.

Shes been MEDICATED for almost 9 years- shes on Prozac. So its being managed. Shes still pretty hyper but it way took the agression away.

But thats the drastic (and INCREDIBLY expensive) my parents took to make their dog safe. She gets boarded only at her vet with people who understand how she is, and she isn't taken out of their house. Literally, in 9 years of owning her they've never been able to take her on walks or anything like that. Just a huge fenced in backyard that is literally inescapable for her.

[MistyBlue]

The media does get overly excited about dog attacks and do sometimes misidentify breeds. Although it's not close to "6 out of 10 times."
According to the insurance institute who researches anything insurance has to insure and/or pay out for...and this covers ONLY the claims they've paid by insured people....the vast majority of "catastrophic bites/maulings and deaths" by canines is done by pits or pit crosses. Which cover the top 65-70% of these types of insurance claims. They categorize catastrophic as anything requiring hospital stay/more than general treatment and anything worse. The dogs caught and quarantined and/or destroyed are identified and reported by the vets who tend them.
Now the media might get the breeds wrong once in a while, but vets rarely do.
FWIW...the vast majority of the pits in the top 65-70% are intact male pits. They also sub-categorize by gender/whether fixed or not.
Also a good percentage is from dogs biting and seriously injuring or mauling their own people. So it's not just loose dogs. Almost half are to children under the age of 12 IIRC.
So it's not a fallacy that pits do indeed cause more serious injuries than any other breed. The key word is "serious injuries." Now there are more dog bites from goldens or labs, but less requiring treatment and maulings don't even make the list because the percentage is too low. There are more goldens than pits...but the pits are still popular and have different bite styles. They bite hard and they bite repeatedly. Few other dogs keeping biting after the initial snap. Once their biting starts, their genetics kick in and most keep biting.

[arabhorse2]

Aubreyyy, it's great that your parents have taken responsibility for their dog, and tried to make her as secure and easy to deal with as they can. That's all anyone can ask.

I still stand by my statement that the size of the dog doesn't matter, though. Intolerable actions aren't acceptable just because of diminutive size.

Every dog needs training, and it's not "cute" to allow aggressive behaviour in any animal. It makes me pukey to see those America's Funniest Video tapes where they're showing a small dog growling, snapping, and acting like a total heathen.

If it's not acceptable behaviour in a larger dog, it's not acceptable in a smaller one.

[VAHorseGurl]

I've never heard of anyone else with any other kind of breed have to be PTS from that kind of agression.

Then you very obviously haven't participated in any kind of Dog rescue. I've been active in all breed rescue for nearly 20yrs now and have had far more different breeds put down for aggression than Pit.

I had a finger severed by a 1yr old female Mastiff out of the blue. I've been attacked by a DDB from the back of my Element during transportation. I've been bitten by a Lab and attacked by a Poodle.

None of them Pit bulls or anything close to a Pit mix. All pure breds, all humanely euthanized for aggression.

[Aubreyyy]

^^

Definitely. I think the only reason my paren'ts dog could do the meds is b/c she was so small... I couldn't imagine the dosage on a large dog. The price would be staggering!

[arabhorse2]

Yep, which is why a larger dog would have been destroyed.

Glad your parents love their dog enough to have given her a chance.

[VAHorseGurl]

^^

Definitely. I think the only reason my paren'ts dog could do the meds is b/c she was so small... I couldn't imagine the dosage on a large dog. The price would be staggering!

I don't know the whole story on your parent's dog, but I commend them for their efforts.

I had a 150lbs. English Mastiff (poorly bred) with a brain tumor who at the tender age of 1yr became stranger aggressive. Yes, human aggressive and the cost was stagger, no only financially but physically on me.

I often look back and ask myself, while he was completely and entirely loyal to me, was it humane to keep him alive? For he may not have been suffering physically, but he was mentally, as your parent's little dog seems to be.

We walked very very early in the morning, and very very late in the evening. We didn't have a mid-day walker, just couldn't trust that he's recognize them. He was always kept on a double leash when we had to take him out during 'normal public hours' and we were the ones who crossed the street when we saw folks coming.

I did everything I could for 6 LONG years to provide him the quality of life I thought was right. But was it really? He eventually spiraled so far down hill before I caught it that he bit me one morning during feeding. I knew at that moment it was time to let him go. Perhaps it was far past time to let him go.

[Aubreyyy]

Then you very obviously haven't participated in any kind of Dog rescue. I've been active in all breed rescue for nearly 20yrs now and have had far more different breeds put down for aggression than Pit.

I had a finger severed by a 1yr old female Mastiff out of the blue. I've been attacked by a DDB from the back of my Element during transportation. I've been bitten by a Lab and attacked by a Poodle.

None of them Pit bulls or anything close to a Pit mix. All pure breds, all humanely euthanized for aggression.

I haven't, which is why its significant (potentially only to me) that I've heard of so many people having to put their pits down. These people have been friends and aquaintances, not sensationalized stories churning through the rumor mill.

I'm sure all dogs can be agressive and all dogs can cause injury to other animals and people- but why does it seem much more prevalent with pits?

[Aubreyyy]

I often look back and ask myself, while he was completely and entirely loyal to me, was it humane to keep him alive? For he may not have been suffering physically, but he was mentally, as your parent's little dog seems to be.



(Wow, threadjack! lol)

Thats the hard part. When her agression started to manifest itself, she was pretty young, but we were attached. She was SO GOOD with our family, seemed so normal- how do you put a dog like that to sleep?

We are all VERY lucky that the prozac helped- we sent her to 3-4 trainers first and they all told us to put her down.

[VAHorseGurl]

I haven't, which is why its significant (potentially only to me) that I've heard of so many people having to put their pits down. These people have been friends and aquaintances, not sensationalized stories churning through the rumor mill.

I'm sure all dogs can be agressive and all dogs can cause injury to other animals and people- but why does it seem much more prevalent with pits?

Piss poor breeding and inconsistant training. HUMAN error, and just because these people were 'friends and acquaintances' doesn't mean they are less likely to purchase a puppymill Pit or a BYB pit and then work consistantly on training and soicalization.

With pits, training and socialization is COMPLETELY different, it is a 24/7, 365 day a year training and socialization. It's understanding that regardless of loyalty, they are NEVER to be left alone with children or other animals, big or small.

I don't know these peoples story, you don't know the WHOLE story, just what they feel is relevant enough for you to hear. But what I can tell you is without a doubt in my mind, those dogs gave a sign, a signal, something to indicate there was a potential problem in their lives. It was up to their owners to read and understand the next step.

Look, I'm not doggin' ya, I hope you know this? And while I'm a huge advocate for the breed, what the owner in this story fails to understand is that this dog was not ever meant to be used for protection. And it's obvious that they do not intend to keep the dogs safe from themselves or keep the public safe from the dogs. So the dogs and the pony have suffered do to the lack of responsibility by the owner.

So, yes, put them down.

[Aubreyyy]

Look, I'm not doggin' ya, I hope you know this? And while I'm a huge advocate for the breed, what the owner in this story fails to understand is that this dog was not ever meant to be used for protection. And it's obvious that they do not intend to keep the dogs safe from themselves or keep the public safe from the dogs. So the dogs and the pony have suffered do to the lack of responsibility by the owner.

So, yes, put them down.

Oh god! I know :) And I understand totally about agressive dogs- they're the exception of ANY breed, not the rule.

I was just curious to why it seemed like it happens so much more often with the Pits- but then again, everyone loves to villify them...maybe you only hear the stories b/c their pits? Like, nobody thinks its newsworthy to have to kill a poor innocent cutey Lab b/c it was (of no fault of its own) a little imbalanced. Oh the shock! lol

(and I just remembered that when I was a kid, I think the next door neighbors Border Collie went to "live in the country" b/c she was very whacko and escaped often. So I just proved myself wrong lol)

[Chall]

Anyone heard of dogs having all their teeth filed down and canine teeth extracted?
Seems to me that would render a dog pretty harmless. And if an owner loves it (but can't control it), then he could feed it canned mush the rest of it's life. Any reason this isn't done or offered as an alternative to euthanasia ?

[MistyBlue]

With some dogs the lbs of pressure alone on the bite can break bones. The teeth cause punctures and allows them to hold on, but the strength/pressure alone is what breaks bones. You'd be amazed at how hard some animals without teeth can bite. :eek:

[WorthTheWait95]

Anyone heard of dogs having all their teeth filed down and canine teeth extracted?
Seems to me that would render a dog pretty harmless. And if an owner loves it (but can't control it), then he could feed it canned mush the rest of it's life. Any reason this isn't done or offered as an alternative to euthanasia ?

That's a tough one. While I see your point I don't really think that's fair to the dog in the long run. I'd almost rather euth them then put them through the pain of extractions and then have them live tooth less for the rest of their lives unable to eat anything but mush. And as someone else pointed out they force of the bite can still be very strong.

We had a pit bull who was the sweetest most affectionate dog ever. He would sit outside the horses stalls and lick their faces/noses when they hung their heads over the half doors. As much as I loved that dog I would also like to see the end of pit bull breeding...too many people are just too clueless.

[CATransplant]

I absolutely HATE, I mean really HATE pits. Totally useless breed IMO. They are dangerous and unpredictable and known to attack, more so than any other breed of dog. My brother in law was mauled by two pits while on duty last year. He was lucky to get away with his life. I am a dog owner myself, but I would never, ever bring a pit into my family, near my kids or animals. Don't waste your time trying to convince me otherwise, I have always hated and always will... no matter how "sweet" your pit is...... We catch a pit on or near our property, its as good as dead.....

[Riley0522]

I absolutely HATE, I mean really HATE pits. Totally useless breed IMO. They are dangerous and unpredictable and known to attack, more so than any other breed of dog. My brother in law was mauled by two pits while on duty last year. He was lucky to get away with his life. I am a dog owner myself, but I would never, ever bring a pit into my family, near my kids or animals. Don't waste your time trying to convince me otherwise, I have always hated and always will... no matter how "sweet" your pit is...... We catch a pit on or near our property, its as good as dead.....

I don't really care about your opinion, you are entitled to it by all means, but what does your dog do that makes it so much more useful than a Pit Bull? Do you consider yourself enough of a breed expert to be able to ID a Pit Bull from far away and then kill an animal simply for being near your property and being what you think is a waste of life Pit Bull? I'd like to see you tell that to a judge or a little girl who's best friend you killed.

[Ajierene]

.

I was just curious to why it seemed like it happens so much more often with the Pits- but then again, everyone loves to villify them...maybe you only hear the stories b/c their pits? Like, nobody thinks its newsworthy to have to kill a poor innocent cutey Lab b/c it was (of no fault of its own) a little imbalanced. Oh the shock! lol

It happens more often with Pitbulls because people do not know how to raise pitbulls. Pitbulls are popular because of their look and the idea of them being mean, but unlike other popular breeds, pitbulls need different training and different environments. Many pitbulls are nice, but they are usually because people either NEVER let them near other dogs/animals or the pitbull has been properly socialized.

They are not labs or shepherds or collies.....you MUST socialize them 24/7 from the moment they are weaned until the moment they die.

They are not breed for hunting or protection, they are breed for fighting. Because of this, they also have 'rage' breed into them. It has been breed into them to latch on and not let go and movement and fighting makes them more crazy. In a dog fight, it is VERY hard to call a pitbull off of another dog, which is why one is usually dead.

A friend bred pitbulls. He would try to sell them only to appropriate homes. This man wanted two pitbulls. My friend cautioned him about taking care of pitbulls and did a site check, he was told to get rid of the monkey (the man owned a small farm). The buyer agreed. A few weeks later my friend received a phone call that there was a problem with the pitbulls and he had to come over. The scene was carnage - one dead, the other almost dead....and a dead monkey. My friend yelled at the owner.

What happened was these puppies were 'harassed' by the monkey, teamed up to kill the monkey, but when they were done, they were in rage (adrenaline coupled with genetics) and turned on each other (puppies from the same litter).

Other dogs do display aggression and there are anomalies in all breeds, but pitbulls were bred to be aggressive, couple that with people that don't know how to raise them (they ARE NOT housepets) and you have an issue.

[MistyBlue]

I don't hate the breed...I'm not fond of it either but I don't hate the breed. I distrust strange ones...especially loose strange ones. Same with a few other breeds...and frankly I remain semi-cautious with any breed loose and roaming dog because to me anyone who owns a dog and lets it roam free probably didn;t have enough brain cells to socialize it either.
I don't think banning the breed across the country (which it would be at state level anyways) is a solution though.
I do know some cities have banned them...with good enough reason since inner cities seem to have more than their share of irresponsible pit owners.
IMHO...an idea that might work would be to choose certain issue breeds and require special "extra" licenses to own one. The breeds that do have genetic dispositions or traits that make them "not for beginner or fools" dogs. Pits would be included in that. Some sort of extra license stating that the breed can be owned as long as:
*they are neutered of spayed. (breeders to have separate license for breeding purposes so only decent breeders remain legally)
*they complete a certain level of obedience training
*the owners agree and sign off on the dogs having certain containment rules such as a certain level/height/type of fencing and leashed at all times off property with the violation being instant seizure.
*That each owner and dog is tested as to socialization levels and training.
*No cross breeding allowed.
*approved dogs to be chipped and ACO/PD to have scanners and to confiscate any non-chipped dog at any time whether it's terrorizing something or not.

And whatever other things to be added or changed...not sure what would work best overall. Something like that shouldn't be an issue for the responsible owners at all...a good "problem breed" owner will be doing these things anyways and the fees involved would be nominal. The less responsible owners wouldn't want to go through the hassle and would rather have an "easy" dog to own that they didn't have to work towards. And the thugs wouldn;'t go for that at all since it "ruins" the purpose of having a big bad dog with a set of fleshy danglies to parade around.
I'm just thinking of having a special wildlife or exotic license and how that's done and why it couldn't be modified for certain breeds of animals...there may be a way to do that somehow.
That way it doesn't affect the good owners or good dogs of certain breeds out there and it does remove the potential problem dogs from the public and it ensures that only approved breeders can produce more...which would hopefully return the personality, traits and even appearance back to the beloved family pet of the 50's. And if most or all of the potential issue breeds had the same type of licensing...then there's not much left for the thugs to screw up. They will find something I'm sure...but hopefully not.
Does this sound like it might have some merit?

[Sansena]

Sansena...the dogs were two pits. The owner also has a boxer. The two pits have killed 2 cats and are responsible for 3 more attacks in the lst 16 days. The owner of them has a construction company and he keeps the pits as "property protection dogs." And they are pits according to animal control who went out on the other calls. The entire Candlewood Hills community have been trying to get those dogs seized for weeks now, other pet and livestock owners have been terrorized by these two dogs. :no: (just made a quick phone call to verify)

You are correct.. Thank you.

[CATransplant]

I don't really care about your opinion, you are entitled to it by all means, but what does your dog do that makes it so much more useful than a Pit Bull? Do you consider yourself enough of a breed expert to be able to ID a Pit Bull from far away and then kill an animal simply for being near your property and being what you think is a waste of life Pit Bull? I'd like to see you tell that to a judge or a little girl who's best friend you killed.


Totally a waste of space. I despise the breed and usually the folks that own them and adore them....

Our neighbors have pits, they are fully aware if fido comes to our property, he won't be coming home.... we've done it before a few times actually... wouldn't hesitate to do it again... here where we live, its legal to protect your livestock, no questions asked.
My dogs, have a job, thats to protect our property and our children, I don't let them roam around off the property, which is more than I can say for most people out here, they are specifically trained to do their jobs and stay on our property and not harm livestock. And its not just pits that will get shot if they come on our property, that goes for any breed....

[SaturdayNightLive]

Totally a waste of space. I despise the breed and usually the folks that own them and adore them....

Our neighbors have pits, they are fully aware if fido comes to our property, he won't be coming home.... we've done it before a few times actually... wouldn't hesitate to do it again... here where we live, its legal to protect your livestock, no questions asked.
My dogs, have a job, thats to protect our property and our children, I don't let them roam around off the property, which is more than I can say for most people out here, they are specifically trained to do their jobs and stay on our property and not harm livestock. And its not just pits that will get shot if they come on our property, that goes for any breed....

You must be super fun to live near.

[Pirateer]

Breed regs are a) stupid and b) wouldn't work, since 80% of the non-APBT owning world can't even identify them.

[WorthTheWait95]

Breed regs are a) stupid and b) wouldn't work, since 80% of the non-APBT owning world can't even identify them.

It always amazes me how many can't actually identify a pitbull. When I worked in an animal shelter we'd have people thinking everything from american bulldogs (that one is understandable at least) to bull terriers to shepards were pits!

[Trakehner]

Years ago my mother had a pet sheep. She put a dog collar on it, staked it on a long rope and moved the stake around the 4 acre yard. It was a lawnmower and a pet :). Then one day, a pack of neighborhood dogs, led by a golden retriever and collie ran the poor thing down and ripped its throat off. The neighbors confronted with the bloody evidence on their dog and the carcass said "Are you sure? My little poopsie.. yes..I'll admit that he/she was loose.. but he/she would never do such a horrid thing." Something about sheep/fear element brings out the wild in a dog running in a pack.

And I would have demanded every one of those dogs be killed...or if I could, I would have done it myself.

[MistyBlue]

And we do realize that what the media portrays and what the BBs portray is not the majority? :winkgrin: Just the most publicized.
And the general public wouldn't have to identify them as long as ACOs or LEOs could.
But then again...far better to dismiss things out of hand rather than offer constructive criticism, advice or suggestions.
:sigh:
The system works for wildlife and exotics. Not 100%, but very well. (no system is 100%)

[Rivermeer]

i am really disgusted to read the uneducated discrimination towards the bully breeds, or "pit bulls".

In my experiance, they are a clean slate when they are born. They bad ones are the same as cocker spaniels, poodles, labs, and golden retrievers. I have owned most of all the "deadly" dog breeds in my life. Mainly because I prefer large dogs, and do rescue.

I years ago posted a picture of my now deceased pit "Hunter" with our kitten curled up sleeping with him. Certainly not a viscous dog. Hunter I received as a 6 week pup, because his dirt bag breeders. His mother was bred to her son,so he was certainly imbred. But was not to smart as he was, his only issue was food aggresion with other dogs only. I rescued 3 ferrets, from a really nasty home. He would literally stand like a statue, afraid to move when they were out jumping around him, on him and whatever, he was afraid to move and step on them. He would sit at the doorway of our bedroom and moan if there was a cat laying there in front, and he couldnt figure how to get in, to lay on the bed. He was a good citizen, regardless of his breed or his inbreeding. In fact when I went to pick him up his mom and father weren't to friendly. RIP to Hunter who lost his life to cancer.

Since, I have other dogs in my life, I have one I want to tell you about. She was a rescue pitt named Mustang. Story on her was that she was owned by a deaf man, and he had to rehome her. She basically landed in the hands of a drug dealer, who fought her( It was a major bug drust in our city). She was incredibly really smart, smartest dog I ever owned. One time when I was walking her down the stairs from the house to the dog run, I missed a step and fell on my tail bone, I sat down on the step and started crying of the pain. Mustang came back up to me and laid her head into my chest. She knew I was hurting, and was trying to comfort me. Also a situation with a boyfriend, we were wrestling around in the dinning room and she was just sitting and watching. And when she thought he was getting too rough, she went and grabbed his pant leg, released and just sat down to see if he respected her. Pretty smart girl! Unfortunately she died in her sleep, the vet thought she had a stroke at age 12.

I am not at all against euthanizing these dogs that did that horiffic damage to the poor pony.

but please dont't say these breeds are the devils spawn and should be done away with. I can even tell you stories about the rotties I have that are rescued :)

Heather

[CATransplant]

And I would have demanded every one of those dogs be killed...or if I could, I would have done it myself.

Amen to that. As gruff as it may seem to shoot a "dog" that wanders on our property, its our right to protect our livestock or pets or whatever... I've had it with neighbors dogs or strays coming onto our acerage and harrasing our cattle, horses, goats, chickens... its the only way. I wish people would be more responsible with their dogs. I have large dogs, but we go to great measures to keep them confined to our property and train them. We use to chase the dogs off or take them back to the neighbors and ask them to keep them out, but after countless attacks and several losses, we had to take matters into our own hands.

[twobays]

Totally a waste of space. I despise the breed and usually the folks that own them and adore them....

Our neighbors have pits, they are fully aware if fido comes to our property, he won't be coming home.... we've done it before a few times actually... wouldn't hesitate to do it again... here where we live, its legal to protect your livestock, no questions asked.
My dogs, have a job, thats to protect our property and our children, I don't let them roam around off the property, which is more than I can say for most people out here, they are specifically trained to do their jobs and stay on our property and not harm livestock. And its not just pits that will get shot if they come on our property, that goes for any breed....

You regularly kill dogs just for coming onto your property???? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Rivermeer]

Ya know what Ca, I can respect your last response, but your attitude towards "pit bulls" is scary. If you have said that you protect your property from a "menacing" dog what ever the breed than that would have been in my eyes respectible. Your views on pits are not in my book.

Heather

[CATransplant]

You regularly kill dogs just for coming onto your property???? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


if they pose a threat to any of my animals...... absolutely.

[Rivermeer]

I understand and agree with protecting your property and livestock from nusiance dogs, but your aggression and hatred towards pits are totally off the wall.

Heather

[twobays]

if they pose a threat to any of my animals...... absolutely.

How do you determine if they're posing a threat?

[Rivermeer]

And for infor: pits are a medium sized dog, not large. I can't remember what post I saw that referred to.

Heather

[CATransplant]

How do you determine if they're posing a threat?

Chasing livestock, stalking, being chased off once and returning shortly after, growling or barking at cows or horses in pasture.
It's not really hard to determine at all. Most are up to no good, there is no reason whatsoever to come onto the property other than cause rukus.

[CATransplant]

Ya know what Ca, I can respect your last response, but your attitude towards "pit bulls" is scary. If you have said that you protect your property from a "menacing" dog what ever the breed than that would have been in my eyes respectible. Your views on pits are not in my book.

Heather

perhaps you should go back and read my post then, because I did say that, no matter the breed. I have a particular dislike towards pits, yes, I do. And your view on pits is not in my book either, but thats ok with me. I hate them and always will. I will never, ever welcome one into my home. If thats "scary" then so be it. I've felt this way for as long as I can remember and nothing will change that. Not my cup o tea.... if you like em...... cool. beleive it or not, we actually are friendly with the neighbors who own a few and we've warned them in a respectable way and they understood and didn't get hostile towards us. I will not allow my children to go over to their place to play with their children because of the pits, not something I am comfortable with at all.

[Riley0522]

Totally a waste of space. I despise the breed and usually the folks that own them and adore them....

Our neighbors have pits, they are fully aware if fido comes to our property, he won't be coming home.... we've done it before a few times actually... wouldn't hesitate to do it again... here where we live, its legal to protect your livestock, no questions asked.
My dogs, have a job, thats to protect our property and our children, I don't let them roam around off the property, which is more than I can say for most people out here, they are specifically trained to do their jobs and stay on our property and not harm livestock. And its not just pits that will get shot if they come on our property, that goes for any breed....


I'm saying this as respectfully as possible, but I usually feel the same way about people as ignorant and closed-minded as you, but that's why we live in America and are allowed to have our own opinions :)

[gieriscm]

You regularly kill dogs just for coming onto your property???? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I have a neighbor who does the same. If he's feeling benevolent he'll toss the carcass onto the dog owner's driveway. Otherwise he just leaves it lay for the scavengers.

I really don't blame him as he tried to play nice with the a$$hat dog owners for years to no avail.

[vacation1]

Anyone heard of dogs having all their teeth filed down and canine teeth extracted? Seems to me that would render a dog pretty harmless. And if an owner loves it (but can't control it), then he could feed it canned mush the rest of it's life. Any reason this isn't done or offered as an alternative to euthanasia ?

If the dog is large enough, or the victim is small enough, the sheer force of an attack will kill without needing to have deadly tearing from teeth. Removal of teeth would probably prevent even a huge dog from successfully killing an adult human, but it would not prevent lethal attacks on children, infants or other animals. I've heard way too many stories of cats and small dogs killed when a larger dog grabbed it and shook it hard.

It always amazes me how many can't actually identify a pitbull. When I worked in an animal shelter we'd have people thinking everything from american bulldogs (that one is understandable at least) to bull terriers to shepards were pits!

Funny, the thing that always strikes me at shelters is how creative and optimistic and, dare I say, dishonest people are. Or they really do think dogs that are clearly pit bulls are actually lab, dalmation, hound or dane mixes. If you get really lucky, you find an ubercreative soul who'd labelled a poster child pit bull as something super exotic and unlikely like a Carolina Singing Dog/PBGV mix.

Apart from that little issue, the problem with this particular complaint is that there is not much difference between the American Pit Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier, the Staffordshire Terrier, the American Bulldog, the Bull Terrier, etc. It's like Whippet owners complaining that people mistake their breed for a Greyhound. Same family, same issues. The sighthounds tend to be bad with cats, the collies tend to bark horrifically, the hounds tend to wander, etc.

[CATransplant]

I'm saying this as respectfully as possible, but I usually feel the same way about people as ignorant and closed-minded as you, but that's why we live in America and are allowed to have our own opinions :)

Ignorant, no.... close minded when it comes to that breed of dog, you betcha! I can't think of one good thing when I think of a pit bull. One of my best friends owns two of them, shes about to have a baby, all I can say is I hope they get rid of those two dogs soon, I tell her all the time shes asking for trouble having them around with a newborn. She says the same crap everyone who owns them says.. Oh so and so would NEVER hurt anyone, shes a big baby, blah blah.... for her newborns sake, I sure hope shes right about that.... useless. :no:

[CATransplant]

I have a neighbor who does the same. If he's feeling benevolent he'll toss the carcass onto the dog owner's driveway. Otherwise he just leaves it lay for the scavengers.

I really don't blame him as he tried to play nice with the a$$hat dog owners for years to no avail.

I cannot tell you how many times we've pleaded with certain neighbors to keep their dogs home. After having a few goats killed, some barn cats killed, and horses ran thru the fence being chased... thats when we had to draw the line. I would only blame myself if my dogs got capped.

Never tossed a carcass back to the owners, but not a terrible idea for a certain few!

[twobays]

Chasing livestock, stalking, being chased off once and returning shortly after, growling or barking at cows or horses in pasture.
It's not really hard to determine at all. Most are up to no good, there is no reason whatsoever to come onto the property other than cause rukus.

Alright, I understand more where you're coming from. From your original post I thought you meant any dog, however docile and unmenacing, would be shot upon crossing your property line. Which would be kind of terrifying.

[twobays]

I have a neighbor who does the same. If he's feeling benevolent he'll toss the carcass onto the dog owner's driveway. Otherwise he just leaves it lay for the scavengers.

I really don't blame him as he tried to play nice with the a$$hat dog owners for years to no avail.

As long as the dogs weren't posing a threat to his animals, that guy is a nutcase. Sounds like he has a few loose...

[Ambrey]

I find the attitude that pit-bulls are the same as any other breed very scary. They are being purpose bred in large numbers for aggression. Meaning, that if someone has a particularly aggressive dog, they will breed it on purpose to get more of the same.

Telling people that pit bulls are like cocker spaniels is frightening.

Now, I *know* these aren't reputable breeders doing this, but it is being done and so when you see a pit bull on the street there's no way to know whether or not it has come from a long line of house pets or a line of fighting/aggressing dogs. Seems to me erring on the side of caution is not a bad thing.

[Riley0522]

I find the attitude that pit-bulls are the same as any other breed very scary. They are being purpose bred in large numbers for aggression. Meaning, that if someone has a particularly aggressive dog, they will breed it on purpose to get more of the same.

Telling people that pit bulls are like cocker spaniels is frightening.

Now, I *know* these aren't reputable breeders doing this, but it is being done and so when you see a pit bull on the street there's no way to know whether or not it has come from a long line of house pets or a line of fighting/aggressing dogs. Seems to me erring on the side of caution is not a bad thing.


First of all, I don't think any reputable breeder/breed enthusiast is ever saying Pit Bulls are like Cocker Spaniels or that just anyone can own them. Any reputable breeder or rescue has intense screening processes for the applicants for their dogs, and does extensive evaluation on any dog before it is placed. A good breeder or rescue would never place a dog in a home that could not handle it. The rescue I volunteer for hardly even place dogs in homes with no breed experience, and they WILL humanely euthanize a dog if they deem it too dangerous to place in a common home.

I do understand they are big, powerful dogs and I do not think just anyone should own a Pit Bull. When friends/family are looking for a new dog, I do not recommend everyone get a Pit Bull....sure, I do recommend rescue, but I realize these dogs do not work for a lot of people. I also think it is important to know your breed's history...and with Pits that means knowing they have been bred for over 100 years to fight in Pits, AND have ZERO human aggression. That being said, not all of them are dog aggressive w/prey drives, and most of them are not human aggressive. Human aggression in this breed is NOT a bred in trait, it is taught by the scumbags that try to use them as guard dogs!

Also, there are FEW reputable breeders of American Pit Bull Terriers. More reputable breeders of Staffordshire Bull Terriers and American Staffordshire Terriers, but those dogs are usually for show. Obviously if you're buying a dog off the internet or in the newspaper, you are buying something from a backyard breeder and fueling the overpopulation of poorly bred dogs. As a person from rescue, I really don't support breeding at all....but for the few that do it responsibly and breed to the breed standard, fine...I love the breed and we do need these people to keep the breed alive. All the backyard breeders breeding "hippos" (which are roided out versions of what these people think Pit Bulls are and not really Pit Bulls) and the thugs breeding them to sell for drug money can rot in hell as far as I'm concerned. In rescue, the first thing that is done when we intake a dog is spay/neuter. Out of every 600 Pit Bulls in the shelters across America, 1 will find a home...that is a devastating statistic.

If you got to know the breed, you would see the atrocities these dogs live through, the God awful things that "human beings" do to them, and see how loving and caring they still are towards people. That is a resiliency that a lot of breeds do not possess. So, in the right hands, I believe they make phenomenal pets, are MUCH more intelligent than many other breeds, and they will always be a part of my family. The bottom line is to be a responsible dog owner, you need to know your dog, know it's breed history, and act responsibly in all situations. Regardless of breed, you are still dealing with a dog, a live animal, something with it's own brain that is essentially unpredictable.

[Pirateer]

Telling people that pit bulls are like cocker spaniels is frightening.


Cocker spaniels are actually worse than Pits. Cockers have the worst Jekyll/Hyde personality of any dog I've seen. Anybody that has been around them would tell you the same.

If you look at statistics, most dog bites come from Golden Retrievers...
And Pits aren't categorized as Human Agressive - but Akitas and others are.

Just because a dog was bred to look a certain way doesn't mean its going to maul your child.

And just because the majority of you people sound like idiots, doesn't mean you really are.

Although if any of you THOUGHT you might shoot my dog, you'd have a bullet in you faster than you could release the safety. I live in Alaska, and I have a wee arsenal and know how to use it to protect "my property".

[SaturdayNightLive]

That's the coolest part about living in Alaska - it's legal to shoot humans that threaten your animals. :yes:

[Ambrey]

First of all, I don't think any reputable breeder/breed enthusiast is ever saying Pit Bulls are like Cocker Spaniels or that just anyone can own them. Any reputable breeder or rescue has intense screening processes for the applicants for their dogs, and does extensive evaluation on any dog before it is placed. A good breeder or rescue would never place a dog in a home that could not handle it. The rescue I volunteer for hardly even place dogs in homes with no breed experience, and they WILL humanely euthanize a dog if they deem it too dangerous to place in a common home.

The Cocker Spaniel comment was from this board, and not a generalized feeling of what Pit breeders think.

I *totally* agree that the problem is human caused. There is no such thing as an evil animal... or, I should say, an animal acting on instincts and doing the things it was bred to do is not evil or bad. People who raise animals to spend their lives fighting are pretty close to my idea of evil.

[Ambrey]

If you look at statistics, most dog bites come from Golden Retrievers...
And Pits aren't categorized as Human Agressive - but Akitas and others are.

Just because a dog was bred to look a certain way doesn't mean its going to maul your child.

And just because the majority of you people sound like idiots, doesn't mean you really are.


Living in Alaska might be your issue here, and why you are calling people idiots when actually you're quite separated from the issue and really not clear on what's going on.

I live in the "greater Los Angeles area" and pit bulls are one of the most popular breeds to be owned by... a certain less savory segment of society that is more violent than most of us are willing to accept. The majority of pits found in animal shelters, which are a huge percentage of the shelter animals, are bred in less than reputable conditions, and often have genetic backgrounds that the AmStaff society or whatever pit-type associations exist are turning a blind eye to.

And the majority of severe human maulings in this area over the last several years have been pit bulls. That is just the plain truth.

[twobays]

If you look at statistics, most dog bites come from Golden Retrievers...
And Pits aren't categorized as Human Agressive - but Akitas and others are.



I don't know what the statistics are, so I can't really say, but that may be because goldens are so popular as a breed. Even if goldens bite 1/10th as frequently as a pit, if there are 15x as many of them, more bites will come from goldens.

I'm not saying that's the case, but it is a possibility.

[twobays]

... a certain less savory segment of society that is more violent than most of us are willing to accept.

Can you explain what you mean by this? :confused:

[Ambrey]

Can you explain what you mean by this? :confused:

Gang members.

[twobays]

Gang members.

Who doesn't accept that gang members are more violent than average members of society? :confused:

[MistyBlue]

If you look at statistics, most dog bites come from Golden Retrievers...
And Pits aren't categorized as Human Agressive - but Akitas and others are.

Just because a dog was bred to look a certain way doesn't mean its going to maul your child.

And just because the majority of you people sound like idiots, doesn't mean you really are.

Although if any of you THOUGHT you might shoot my dog, you'd have a bullet in you faster than you could release the safety. I live in Alaska, and I have a wee arsenal and know how to use it to protect "my property".
Goldens and labs are the top 2 for most dog bites in this country.
However..65-70% of all catatrophic dog bites/attacks are done by pits and pit crosses according to the insurance institute. They define catastrophic as requiring medical care/hospital stay or worse. The next is responsible for 23%, Rotties. They track these by insurance claims made on insurance companies to cover dog bites/attacks. And they track the ones by breed only when the dog(s) responsible were identified by the veterinarian who had them in quarantine or euthanized them. Vets aren't likely to constantly misindentify breeds.
The majority of human attacks are to children 12 and younger, the majority of those are by their own dogs.
Pits when bred correctly are not human aggressive, very true. The vast majority of pits in this country weren't bred by anyone who knows a darned things about breeding though. So while it is true that a properly bred pit has little chance of being human aggressive, it's also true that a majority of pits weren't bred for temperament anyways so that makes the point null and void.

As for the last paragraph...it depends on state and state laws for protecting your property. I'm in CT...our state law says that if a dog comes onto my property and harasses, worries or chases my domestic animals or livestock it's perfectly legal to shoot the dog to protect my property and the owner of the dog is legally bound to pay any and all damages and has zero legal recourse for the death of their dog. However, if that owner came and shot the person who shot their dog, they'd go to jail for pretty much a very long time.
Keep your property on your property and nobody or anything gets shot, simple as that. :winkgrin:
I'm still trying to figure out why Alaska as a state means people have small arsenals. :confused: As a collector and instructor myself...it wasn't a requirement of my state. Although it might be in TX. :D

[twobays]

I'm still trying to figure out why Alaska as a state means people have small arsenals. :confused:

Because Alaska is the last line of defense against the Canadians! :lol:

[Brave2Xrails]

The majority of pits found in animal shelters, which are a huge percentage of the shelter animals, are bred in less than reputable conditions, and often have genetic backgrounds that the AmStaff society or whatever pit-type associations exist are turning a blind eye to.

I don't understand your statement about AmStaff organizations (as well as those of the other "bully breeds") turning a blind eye to the problem of irresponsible breeders who breed for aggressive traits. AmStaffs went from being the "All-American Dog" to a breed that are reviled by folks who don't have much contact with them due to the asshatted practice of breeding for aggression. Reputable AmStaff breeders and owners are appalled by this practice and actively working to promote responsible breeding and end breeding of aggressive dogs, a practice that is threatening to ruin our breed.

These ill-bred dogs who are, through no fault of their own, bred and TRAINED to be aggressive are NOT the "breed standard" for AmStaffs. And any legitimate organization is pursuing the standard: This is not done sweeping undesirable genetic traits under the rug or choosing to ignore them.

[Ambrey]

These ill-bred dogs who are, through no fault of their own, bred and TRAINED to be aggressive are NOT the "breed standard" for AmStaffs. And any legitimate organization is pursuing the standard: This is not done sweeping undesirable genetic traits under the rug or choosing to ignore them.

What I wonder is why there are so many pit-type owners such as Pirateer who do not understand that there is a real problem with aggression among pit type dogs (I don't think most of the dogs in question are purebred AmStaffs). If they are not getting it from their breed associations, where are they getting it?

[Ambrey]

Who doesn't accept that gang members are more violent than average members of society? :confused:

Um, no, it's their violence we don't accept, not the premise that it exists.

[twobays]

Um, no, it's their violence we don't accept, not the premise that it exists.

Ok, it was ambiguous in the original post. I understand what you intended now.

[Ambrey]

Sorry :)

[bayou_bengal]

How sad for the pony and its owner. I do hope the vet can save his eye. The owners of the pits should have to PAY for all the pony's vet bills AND they should have had to PAY for the cats their dogs killed. I am tired of dog owners hiding behind the old dodge-- well, cats are natural prey to dogs.

MY cats are not NATURAL prey to anyone's dogs. I have dogs, too, but mine are kept in the yard and under control. If one of my dogs ever got out and killed someone else's cats, they would not even have to ask me to have the dog PTS, I would do it immediately. My dogs are not pits, but they are German Shepherd Dogs. They are obedience trained, but GSDs are also known for trying to chase and kill cats.

We have had a pack of 5 stray pit bulls terrorizing our small town for months. By the time you can get the police to respond, the pits are gone. If they see an officer get out of his car, they are off like lightening.

A month ago, we heard our horses running around their pasture at night and snorting. Yep, those 5 dogs were after our horses. We called 911 -- the dispatcher told me not to wait for the police, but to shoot them if I could before they injured or killed one of my horses.

My son tried to get a clear shot, but couldn't (too many horses and dogs all together) When the dogs heard the police siren, they took off running through the back fence and into the woods.

The officer said they drove with the siren on purposely to scare the dogs off so they wouldn't get a horse before the officers could arrive. He said they did manage to kill a sixth dog during a previous attack on someone's chickens, so the dogs know what the siren means. He said they would have preferred to arrive silently, but since the dogs were already chasing the horses they thought it best to try to scare them off.

He said the dogs know they are after them, and will run the minute they hear a siren are see officers. He said the same pack has also attacked a rabbit breeder's hutches, and killed 20 or so rabbits earlier in the winter. They have also attacked and killed numerous pet cats and smaller dogs.

They don't have collars, and no one will admit to owning them, so the police can only try to shoot them on sight. They are too smart to go into the traps the police have set, and they appear to be well fed so hunger hasn't driven them to try the traps.

I wish people would bee more responsible and careful, especially with breeds like pit bulls that are naturally animal agressive.

[twobays]

Sorry :)

It would help if I could at least attempt to read for comprehension. :winkgrin:

[Ambrey]

It would help if I could at least attempt to read for comprehension. :winkgrin:

LOL, only helps if the person is writing for it!

[twobays]

Bayou Bengal

We have one pit like that in my parent's neighborhood. No one owns him and he just trolls around looking for dogs to attack. He actually attacked my parent's lab, and when my dad went in to pull him off, he bit my dad right through a leather jacket. :eek: He literally had to beat him to get him off (and my dad's a big, 6'1 225 pound ex. college hockey player). I'm sick at the thought of what would have happened if it had been my mom.

While the dog is a total asshat, I don't blame him so much as the moron owners who think its OK to let a pit run wild, terrorizing a family neighborhood.

[bayou_bengal]

On a similar topic, have any of you ever heard about the Louisiana pony with the artificial limb? The pony survived Hurricane Katrina only to be attacked by pit bulls while she was in foster care.

I can't remember her name, but I believe she is a POA. Anyway, vets at LSU couldn't save her leg, but they did fit her with an artificial limb. Today she works as a therapy pony and visits disabled chindren. A book about her was published last year.

[WaningMoon]

I don't hate the breed...I'm not fond of it either but I don't hate the breed. I distrust strange ones...especially loose strange ones. Same with a few other breeds...and frankly I remain semi-cautious with any breed loose and roaming dog because to me anyone who owns a dog and lets it roam free probably didn;t have enough brain cells to socialize it either.
I don't think banning the breed across the country (which it would be at state level anyways) is a solution though.
I do know some cities have banned them...with good enough reason since inner cities seem to have more than their share of irresponsible pit owners.
IMHO...an idea that might work would be to choose certain issue breeds and require special "extra" licenses to own one. The breeds that do have genetic dispositions or traits that make them "not for beginner or fools" dogs. Pits would be included in that. Some sort of extra license stating that the breed can be owned as long as:
*they are neutered of spayed. (breeders to have separate license for breeding purposes so only decent breeders remain legally)
*they complete a certain level of obedience training
*the owners agree and sign off on the dogs having certain containment rules such as a certain level/height/type of fencing and leashed at all times off property with the violation being instant seizure.
*That each owner and dog is tested as to socialization levels and training.
*No cross breeding allowed.
*approved dogs to be chipped and ACO/PD to have scanners and to confiscate any non-chipped dog at any time whether it's terrorizing something or not.

And whatever other things to be added or changed...not sure what would work best overall. Something like that shouldn't be an issue for the responsible owners at all...a good "problem breed" owner will be doing these things anyways and the fees involved would be nominal. The less responsible owners wouldn't want to go through the hassle and would rather have an "easy" dog to own that they didn't have to work towards. And the thugs wouldn;'t go for that at all since it "ruins" the purpose of having a big bad dog with a set of fleshy danglies to parade around.
I'm just thinking of having a special wildlife or exotic license and how that's done and why it couldn't be modified for certain breeds of animals...there may be a way to do that somehow.
That way it doesn't affect the good owners or good dogs of certain breeds out there and it does remove the potential problem dogs from the public and it ensures that only approved breeders can produce more...which would hopefully return the personality, traits and even appearance back to the beloved family pet of the 50's. And if most or all of the potential issue breeds had the same type of licensing...then there's not much left for the thugs to screw up. They will find something I'm sure...but hopefully not.
Does this sound like it might have some merit?

I sure learned to distrust the ones I know well too. Have had bad dealings with several pits on farms as I went about inseminating cattle as my job. But the worst was a horrible attack from one I knew. I was there the day the dog was born. I had known the owners of the litter for 30 yrs. I saw these pups grow up, leave home, them keeping one of hte pups, a female brindle one. I knew this dog for 5 yrs, had gone for rides in my car with me and her "mom" dozens of times. Each time I went over, I lived less than a mile up the road, the dog insisted on laying on my lap. I liked her and she liked me, I thought. Then one evening when I was about to leave just as I had for yrs, I put my hand on the doorknob, and that was it. The thing latched onto my leg, wouldn'/t let go, it was horrible. Oh, my god it hurt. The owner grabbed the dog by the collar and pulled it off my leg leaving gaping gashes. Then the dog quickly lounged for me again this time much higher, definitely was at my neck level when the owner was able to stop her in mid air, he still had hold of her color. That is how quick she decided to go at me again. Nope, never convince me any different, I watched these dogs be raised. I know how well socialized they were. I know they were not asked to be or trained to be aggressive. I don't have to wonder, I KNOW, was there, seen it all.

Best friend recently was attacked by her pit which the trainer she hired to help her out with aggression issues told her that she was dog agressive. Yup, well Kelly is not a dog, and she has only given this dog the best of care in the three yrs she has had her. She lives alone and houses an elderly lady. I fear for her life.

So yah, I'd want them all away from me. I gave them a real good chance. I liked one a lot, and I got attacked by it, after 5 yrs of being liked by it. Now no one will ever convince me that those dogs are right. And I know that all like to debunk the Merrit Clifton report but in the last few pages they say that the brains of pits is wired differently than other dogs, Rotts too. I don't know, I've never looked into the brains of either but it would explain something so odd I do believe. Why do they do things just out of hte blue like they seem to be notorious for. Other dogs just don't do that or not very darn often if they do. Pits seem to very often. The gov of Montana sure has it out for them. I wish there were none here, thats for sure. Just my opinion from personal experience but I will never change my mind, ever. And almost 26 yrs later I still have those scars, not hard to find at all.

[Brave2Xrails]

What I wonder is why there are so many pit-type owners such as Pirateer who do not understand that there is a real problem with aggression among pit type dogs (I don't think most of the dogs in question are purebred AmStaffs). If they are not getting it from their breed associations, where are they getting it?

I won't presume to speak for Pirateer but I can speak for myself. It pains me to admit it is a problem with the breed. All my personal experiences with AmStaffs and other pitty-type breeds, including having pets of this breed, has been very positive. I have found them to be loyal, friendly, smart, blah, blah, blah - all the pro-breed hype you hear. My poor recently deceased AmStaff had to put up with the shenanigans of three cats and he never once displayed any aggression - not toward cats, visitors in my home (including children), or other dogs.

I blame the people (maybe gang members, as you suggested, but also the crazy crackers you see on the news, coming out of their trailer in a big, baggy house coat after their dog maimed somebody, putting their dentures in their mouth and saying, "But he ain't never attacked nobody before...") These are instances, as you suggested, of people purposefully breeding a dog for aggression and then either training the animal to be aggressive or simply not properly socializing what is a very strong, smart, dog who, yes, like most terrier breeds, has a prey drive. But their prey drive is no different than that of, say, a JRT. In both breeds it MUST be managed appropriately. Sure, due to their strength and size, a pit breed who is not properly trained is more dangerous but, still, you don't want your JRT chasing everything in site because it is going to end up putting itself in some kind of danger.

The unfortunate thing about the pits is that they have size and strength so they were chosen by the nuts who wanted something "macho". These folks are NOT legitimate breed organizations any more than a puppy mill is a legitimate breeding operation. And these nuts had to work to get pits to be aggressive toward people. In pit fighting, handlers needed to interact with their fighting dogs so a dog that showed aggression to its handler was NOT something desirable.

I agree with you that people are breeding and training aggressive dogs but it is something that most lovers of this breed are angry and saddened by - not something we support at all. It is heartbreaking that these people are in danger of ruining a really great breed and that the "good dogs" of this breed, the dogs who are examples of what this breed is supposed to be, are being tarred with the same brush.

[WaningMoon]

On a similar topic, have any of you ever heard about the Louisiana pony with the artificial limb? The pony survived Hurricane Katrina only to be attacked by pit bulls while she was in foster care.

I can't remember her name, but I believe she is a POA. Anyway, vets at LSU couldn't save her leg, but they did fit her with an artificial limb. Today she works as a therapy pony and visits disabled chindren. A book about her was published last year.

Your talking of Molly.

[CATransplant]

I thought about this thread at 5a.m. this morning while I was watching the local news, was up feeding my 3 week old son. Two more child deaths, one a 7 year old child, mauled by a pit... the other was an 18 month old baby, killed by a pit in Luling, TX. This was within the last few weeks aparently... sickening, absolutely sickening if you ask me... just validifys my hatred for those puke dogs:mad:

Also said on the news that they are trying to pass some lame ass law that no one under 21 can own a pit now.. what good is that going to do?? Not a damn thing..... I know just as many idiot 21 and overs as unders that shouldn't own a killing machine.....


Defend them all you want pit lovers...... lets hear how your pit would NEVER ever, do something like this:yes:

[CATransplant]

I am glad to see someone mentioned "gang members" being part of the problem associated with the breed. We do not see much "gang" activity here where I live, but I've seen some pretty stupid music videos with pit bulls with large spiked collars on hanging out with ummmmm, so called "hood rats" Guess its "cool" to own a pit if you wanna be a gangsta or be considered hardcore.. dont get me wrong, I've seen some white trash with pits too, IMO, they are just as bad, perhaps worse..... part of the bad image for the pits.... dog fighting, etc......


Ok, there is only 1 pitbull I sorta think is nice.... Ceasar Milans "Daddy"

[Ambrey]

I agree with you that people are breeding and training aggressive dogs but it is something that most lovers of this breed are angry and saddened by - not something we support at all. It is heartbreaking that these people are in danger of ruining a really great breed and that the "good dogs" of this breed, the dogs who are examples of what this breed is supposed to be, are being tarred with the same brush.

I agree, but how does one tell the "good" dogs from the "bad" dogs? I mean, it's not a case of a poorly considered generalization- there ARE really people breeding these dogs for the worst possible characteristics.

I didn't mean to imply that the breed orgs support the bad breeding at all. It's just that, as you said, nobody wants to ADMIT that there's a problem with the breed. And so, you end up with people who think they understand the breed but don't have both sides of the story.

There was a case very near my house recently. Pit bull, no idea of origin. Bit some kid, AC argued for euthanasia, the owner fought like hell. The dog was provoked, no previous problems, pit bulls are friendly, etc. etc. etc. Sure enough, within about 2 years the dog mauled a mailman pretty badly. It's the failure to admit to the problem that I'm concerned about.

Every time I hear someone say that pits are great dogs without reservation, I know that they only know part of the story.

[Pirateer]

What I wonder is why there are so many pit-type owners such as Pirateer who do not understand that there is a real problem with aggression among pit type dogs (I don't think most of the dogs in question are purebred AmStaffs). If they are not getting it from their breed associations, where are they getting it?


I don't own pits.
That said, I have known and been around MANY, MANY "bully breed" dogs and haven't seen many more (or even an equal number) aggression problems than any other breed of dog, including mutts.

Yes, I live in Alaska but we do have "gangs" of wild dogs running around- lots of them actually, because of the high costs of taking care of animals up here we get lots of them abandoned. Many of these are in urban areas. We also have black bears in urban areas. Which one do you think we are more concerned about?

I have seen big dogs and small dogs attack people and kids- never was any of these a bully breed (unless you consider a Boston T a bully- lol). Most of them were improperly socialized. Akitas? Husky Mix? GSD? Golden Retriever? Cocker Freakin Spaniel? Yes.

My dogs are and will always be properly socialized- they are not animal, people, or food aggressive.

[vacation1]

It's the failure to admit to the problem that I'm concerned about. Every time I hear someone say that pits are great dogs without reservation, I know that they only know part of the story.

That's what ultimately made me quit supporting pit bulls and their owners. The owners. And I don't mean the gangsters or the trailer trash. I mean the lazy-minded, bleeding-heart, victimization-as-a-sign-of-moral-character owners who never found a problem they couldn't hand off. The man who thinks he's following in the footsteps of Dr. King when he rips someone for saying they don't like pit bulls, the woman who sees a news story about a pit bull biting someone and immediately complains that the reporter probably didn't even correctly ID the breed. Forest? What forest?

[Brave2Xrails]

Well, like just about everything else in the world, there are nuts on both sides. There are the morons who are, through irresponsibly breeding and purposefully training animals to be aggressive, creating a dangerous subset of dogs. Then there are certain supporters who refuse to acknowledge this issue. The second group of nuts is just as damaging to the breed, imo.

But, for the folks who genuinely love these breeds, honestly, what more would you suggest we do?

The normal folks have, time and again, spoken out against dog fighting, improper training, breeding for aggression and other undesirable traits.

Legitimate, responsible breeders will do their best to NOT sell a dog to anyone who might use these dogs illegally or attempt to train them to become aggressive. Besides the fact that it is dangerous, training these dogs to fight/attack is cruel to the dogs and no breeder with a heart is going to want to sell a puppy into a situation like that. But, I'll admit, aside from some type of "profiling" activity, you can never be 100% positive of anything when you sell an animal. Most crackers who want to buy a pit to guard their meth lab and make a little money fighting the dog on the side, probably don't walk in and admit that to a breeder.

Many breeders have it in the contract that you must get the dog spayed/neutered and NOT use it for breeding. (This is common practice for many breeds, not just for the bully breeds.)

Pit rescues, who sometimes do not have the luxury of knowing anything about the dog's background, have an extensive evaluation process to test for aggression . They are also very careful about placement of these dogs who do not test as aggressive. (an aggressive dog will not be placed.)

So, speaking for myself, I acknowledge the problem! But I see it as a problem with "bad people" who have created dangerous dogs. Supporters are doing everything they can to address the problem and stop it.

[Ajierene]

Pit bulls are currently banned in Wilmington, DE. They are not allowed within the city limits. Part of this is, as Ambrey stated, gang members and gang member wannabes not raising these animals correctly. Part of it is your average citizen not understanding that pit bulls are not the greatest 'housepet', meaning you cannot just toss them in a house with kids and no training and expect them to be good.

Prior to the ban, there were fighting rings broken up, leading to euthanasia of pitbulls that could not be rehomed due to aggression, there were incidents of pitbulls jumping 6' fences to attack passing joggers and neighbors. Several also attacked children, some members of the household and some friends.

There was arguing from pitbull breeders about the ban - but the local government has to do what it can to protect its citizens from each other. Enough people had a failure to accept education that the dogs had to be banned.

Pirateer - the dog you mentioned is a Boston Terrier...pitbulls are also a terrier breed. Aggression is common in Terrier lines, as can be seen in several posts on this thread. The problem with a pitbull and some other terriers is that the pitbull is bigger and stronger and especially has such a fierce bite.

You are not going to see nearly as many pitbulls running loose in Alaska. They were not designed to live in the wild in Alaska - that is why statistically you will see a lot more dogs better designed for colder weather out there - dogs with thicker coats, the double coats, etc - such as Akitas, Huskies, Retreivers. Next time you see the pack running - count how many in the pack are shorthair dogs.

[JanM]

I don't think it's just pits--remember all the stories on here about animal/human victims and even with evidence of the perpetrators the owners still maintain their animal didn't do it. An aggressive animal needs to be either properly contained or PTS-and letting any animal run in packs is probably going to result in aggressive behavior of some kind. Bad owners of any animal seem to specialize in denial.

[Bobthehorse]

The "dangerous dog problem" in America is in fact a "dangerous person problem". If its not training a dog to be aggressive, its breeding aggressive dogs or simply not doing right by them and neglecting to socialize and train them properly. So to those who condemn a breed for actions they do not understand, I say you put some more thought into that, because the human behind such tragedies will forever be on the prowl for another weapon once you are successful and euthanizing all pit bulls.

This is very sad, the dogs should be PTS and the owner punished, he sounds like a tool. But to use such an incident to condemn innocent members of the same breed based on physical similarities is beyond ridiculous, unless youre really into regression.

[Ambrey]

But, for the folks who genuinely love these breeds, honestly, what more would you suggest we do?

If everyone had your attitude, I'd have no complaints. You're really the first pit enthusiast I've "met" who is willing to embrace the issue, though.

It's like the "elephant in the living room" analogy- people just talk around the issue of the dangerous pit type dogs but never really acknowledge that they exist.

[Ambrey]

The "dangerous dog problem" in America is in fact a "dangerous person problem". If its not training a dog to be aggressive, its breeding aggressive dogs or simply not doing right by them and neglecting to socialize and train them properly. So to those who condemn a breed for actions they do not understand, I say you put some more thought into that, because the human behind such tragedies will forever be on the prowl for another weapon once you are successful and euthanizing all pit bulls.

But all dogs are the product of human beings. These "weapons" don't stay with the people who created them- they end up out there with people who need to understand that not all Pits are safe for the average person to own.

I do think it's scary to think how quickly an animal can be turned into something different through selective breeding.

I don't really think BSL is the answer, but I do think that shelters need to be more careful (by this I mean public shelters) in adopting out these types of dogs (and it's not just pits, it's rotties too, although the pits are so much more common). I know they have some sort of aggressiveness evaluation, but I'm not sure I trust it, especially with very young dogs.

But nobody is arguing that this is coming from people who are doing bad things for bad reasons. The problem is that these dogs are hurting people and animals.

[Riley0522]

If everyone had your attitude, I'd have no complaints. You're really the first pit enthusiast I've "met" who is willing to embrace the issue, though.

It's like the "elephant in the living room" analogy- people just talk around the issue of the dangerous pit type dogs but never really acknowledge that they exist.

I think every true pit enthusiast/rescuer/breeder more than acknowledges these problems exist and do everything we can to stop the problems (aka the bad owners) from continuing this cycle. I know people who literally dedicate their lives to pulling these dogs out of bad situations and evaluating and rehoming or humanely euthing an animal that has never seen or felt a loving hand in it's life.

To say all pits are bad based on the ones that are trained to be vicious by morons is as good as being racist in my mind. A breed doesn't make a dog bad, the people who own it do.....

I just wonder if all the people who say "I hate ALL Pit Bulls because this one attacked my friend" thinks the same thing about all African Americans they meet because statistically there are more African Americans in gangs than caucasians. I was held up at gunpoint by a group of African American boys when I was 10 years old, but I do not go around spending my whole life being racist because of it.

I also grew up in an area where Pit Bulls were a status symbol and were trained to be vicious and used for protection. My landlord's at one point had a Pit that I was absolutely terrified of and had many close encounters with because he was so human/dog aggressive. Instead of living in fear my whole life, I decided to educate myself and now would not own another breed.

[Ambrey]

The pure and simple difference between this and racism is, in my book, that there is genetic manipulation going on in the form of selective breeding, and that dogs are highly instinct-driven. So, it IS possible to breed for a vicious dog.

And these dogs aren't going to turn into family dogs by lots of love and socialization, they are going to always have a higher drive for aggression.

These are the kinds of things racists like to say is happening in people, but it's just not true- in the dogs, it is true.

[grayarabs]

I don't understand the increasing fascination over the years of the PitBull.
With so many other breeds/mixes to choose a dog from - why choose the most controversial?

[Riley0522]

I don't understand the increasing fascination over the years of the PitBull.
With so many other breeds/mixes to choose a dog from - why choose the most controversial?

Because I like them more than any other breed??? Why do you have Arabs and not Quarter Horses? Quarter Horses are so much quieter, why the hell would you want an Arab (note: sarcasm)?

[grayarabs]

I note your sarcasm but here is my truthful reply in regards to horses. The only breed of horse that has ever deliberately hurt me is a QH. I mean kicked at and connected (arm)- or kicked and BTGOG missed. The latter - I was leading my horse and the other horse came at us - turned around and fired - missed my head by inches - my horse ended up receiving the blows. Another time leaving the barn for a ride - I bent down to re-tie my shoelace before mounting - and the other gal's QH kicked at me. I did not think her horse had it in him to do that - and I was fortunately out of range - or it would have been bad. I was not even behind him - was to his side - and he turned to kick.
OTOH - years ago - one of my Arabs - I had him tied - was walking back to him from the barn and tripped over a root - ended up crashing into his hind legs- I think his legs kept me from hitting the ground. He just turned around and looked at me with an odd expression on his face. Kick - no. Whatever - Arabians are my favorite breed - for many reasons - but I do like and admire other breeds. But we are not comparing the same things.
Dogs live in neighborhoods in close proximity to lots of people and other dogs - unlike horses. But that was not your point. Interesting folks that live around me that walk their dogs - we all know exactly where the Pits live and we talk about it - as now we feel we have to look out for each other and our dogs due to recent influx/increase of Pits around.

[Brave2Xrails]

I don't understand the increasing fascination over the years of the PitBull.
With so many other breeds/mixes to choose a dog from - why choose the most controversial?

These dogs were much more popular years ago and their popularity is actually diminishing with "mainstream" American families. AmStaffs, in particular, were extremely popular family dogs. As for why someone would continue to choose this breed in spite of its becoming controversial, anyone who has ever had properly bred and trained bully breed will attest to their making a great companion animal and won't really care about the opinions of others.

Some of the nut breeders seem to be moving on to other breeds: Cane Corso, Dogo Argentino, Presas, etc. So, if people continue to think this is a pitbull problem, and just want to get rid of these dogs all together, there will always be another breed of big strong dog that can be genetically manipulated and trained to become dangerous to take the place of pits. It really is not a dog problem, it's a people problem.

[Ambrey]

Some of the nut breeders seem to be moving on to other breeds: Cane Corso, Dogo Argentino, Presas, etc. So, if people continue to think this is a pitbull problem, and just want to get rid of these dogs all together, there will always be another breed of big strong dog that can be genetically manipulated and trained to become dangerous to take the place of pits. It really is not a dog problem, it's a people problem.

Unfortunately, the best efforts to get rid of the people responsible aren't particularly effective. But this is entirely true- you can ban pit bulls, and they'll just find another breed to ruin.

So sad :( The entire concept of turning a living, breathing, feeling creature into a weapon of destruction is just so heartbreaking.

[WaningMoon]

I think every true pit enthusiast/rescuer/breeder more than acknowledges these problems exist and do everything we can to stop the problems (aka the bad owners) from continuing this cycle. I know people who literally dedicate their lives to pulling these dogs out of bad situations and evaluating and rehoming or humanely euthing an animal that has never seen or felt a loving hand in it's life.

To say all pits are bad based on the ones that are trained to be vicious by morons is as good as being racist in my mind. A breed doesn't make a dog bad, the people who own it do.....

I just wonder if all the people who say "I hate ALL Pit Bulls because this one attacked my friend" thinks the same thing about all African Americans they meet because statistically there are more African Americans in gangs than caucasians. I was held up at gunpoint by a group of African American boys when I was 10 years old, but I do not go around spending my whole life being racist because of it.

I also grew up in an area where Pit Bulls were a status symbol and were trained to be vicious and used for protection. My landlord's at one point had a Pit that I was absolutely terrified of and had many close encounters with because he was so human/dog aggressive. Instead of living in fear my whole life, I decided to educate myself and now would not own another breed.

You know, the area where I live is very, very far from a large city, there are no gangs, and the ppl who own pits are NOT training them to be agressive, or I have not seen any. The problem here is composed of situations where ppl have had the pit from a youing pup, or ppl who are adopting them at the shelter. There is not a lot of this scenario where ppl use them as protection for their drug business and whatnot. Just families wanting a dog as a family member, nothing else. The one that tore me apart was never trained to be aggressive, not at all. I have known these ppl for many many yrs. So, that is not where I am coming from with my pit facts at all. The others who harrassed me as I went about my work were also just farmer owned family dogs. The one that just attacked my best friend who adopted her from the shelter has NEVER been trained to be aggressive either. She got it as an 8 week old pup and has now had it for four yrs, there is nothing but the right things going on in that household.

[Riley0522]

You know, the area where I live is very, very far from a large city, there are no gangs, and the ppl who own pits are NOT training them to be agressive, or I have not seen any. The problem here is composed of situations where ppl have had the pit from a youing pup, or ppl who are adopting them at the shelter. There is not a lot of this scenario where ppl use them as protection for their drug business and whatnot. Just families wanting a dog as a family member, nothing else. The one that tore me apart was never trained to be aggressive, not at all. I have known these ppl for many many yrs. So, that is not where I am coming from with my pit facts at all. The others who harrassed me as I went about my work were also just farmer owned family dogs. The one that just attacked my best friend who adopted her from the shelter has NEVER been trained to be aggressive either. She got it as an 8 week old pup and has now had it for four yrs, there is nothing but the right things going on in that household.

I appreciate your point, but I would not adopt a Pit out to any of these people you described. Adopting a puppy w/unknown lineage from a shelter at 8 weeks is pretty risky for someone not versed in Pit Bull ownership...assuming this was her first Pit. A dog's personality isn't really set in stone until 3ish years old, so you don't know what you're getting...and if that dog was not hardcore trained/socialized and your friend was not pack leader, it was a gamble. This is exactly why my rescue will not place puppies in a home with no breed experience...we choose to adopt out much older dogs (aka 5,6,7 years old) that we feel are very solid citizens into first time owner homes if they are approved for adoption. Unfortunately, many shelters do not have the luxury of this sort of screening process, but are still bursting at the seems with these Pits...backyard bred, unknown lineage, probably VERY poorly bred for color or size...etc. I've said it in multiple posts, PIT BULLS ARE NOT FOR JUST ANYONE. They require a strong hand/mind and there is really no room for slacking. They are an intelligent terrier, and you MUST be pack leader at.all.times.period!


Yes, they can be great family dogs, but you can't throw out the window the whole knowledgeable home part. You probably wouldn't want an untrained, unsocialized Mastiff who thinks he's head of the household in a home with young children either, but fortunately for Mastiffs MOST people who own them have done extensive breed research and have owned the breed before. I realize the problem not only lies with those individuals directly exploiting these dogs for protection purposes and beating them to be aggressive, but also from the careless, uneducated people who breed them in their backyard in rural Alabama for the blue dilution, which is an unnatural coloring in this breed that often have skin/allergy/neurologic problems among many other health issues. These people are breeding just to make a buck, they could give two s*its where these dogs end up.

[VAHorseGurl]

if they pose a threat to any of my animals...... absolutely.

Your hatred is something you'll have to live with and justify to whom ever you hold as your God, but you do realize that if your dogs are not on a leash or contained properly, they run the risk of finding a neighbor with similar views as yours and might not come home one day.

As for hating any owner of the bully breed, hate away, for you do not know me and you strike me as someone I'd not hold in high regard, but nor would I openly disrespect you for your views as you have done with ANY Pit owner in one of your previous posts. I'd just not associate with you.

[VAHorseGurl]

Ignorant, no.... close minded when it comes to that breed of dog, you betcha! I can't think of one good thing when I think of a pit bull. One of my best friends owns two of them, shes about to have a baby, all I can say is I hope they get rid of those two dogs soon, I tell her all the time shes asking for trouble having them around with a newborn. She says the same crap everyone who owns them says.. Oh so and so would NEVER hurt anyone, shes a big baby, blah blah.... for her newborns sake, I sure hope shes right about that.... useless. :no:

Your statement above is incredible ignorant!! :mad:

Useless? You tell that to those whose lives have been saved by a SARs Pit or a Police officer who's partner saved him during a narcotics bust, or those children and elderly who live every day just waiting for a visit from a Therapy Pit bull.

You truly are a hateful individual with little knowledge of the true breeds worth. You do realize that this nation held many Pits as hero during both WWI and WWII?

And I am truly sorry for what happened to your brother, but it's not right to sit in judgement of all dogs who hold the same breed title. It is ignorance at it's best. Saddly.. And if I were your friend, I'd ask you to stop visiting me and if you don't visit, then I'd ask you to stop talking to me when it regards my dogs.

[chancellor2]

Billy seems like a really nice pony. Love his color. I hope his eye heals up alright.

I am so tired of the dangerous dog issues in America. These dogs were bred to fit in pits and fight to the death. I don't really care how sweet some of them are with responsible owners, their breeding is an issue. It is genetic and they are hard wired to fight aggressively. They should be considered a leathal weapon and the owners should be held responsible for the actions of their dogs and damage to another's property.


Wolfhounds were originally bred to hunt wolves. Know any that are hunting wolves?
How about Rhodesian Ridgebacks? They were bred to fight lions. I know there are plenty of Rhodesians in this country....not so many lions. I guess the Rhodesians must have killed all of them.

The Labrador....yeah, I'm SURE all the family pets are out there retrieving ducks etc.

Educate yourself before spouting off media drivel. American Staffordshire terriers have been bred for years to be COMPANION ANIMALS. Amstaffs are part of the pit bull group.

[Ambrey]

I have an Elkhound and she has a very high pray instinct- and when we used to play with her, she'd run around nipping at people's ankles in a playful way just as she was bred to do. She knows the cats are part of her family, but if a stray possum comes into the yard it's dead meat (or was, when she was younger).

When we were dog shopping, all of the breed descriptions included the instinctual drives that were bred into the breed and how they affected owning them as pets. For example, protection dogs often have a very strong territorial instinct, and can have trouble dealing with "outsiders." We nixed that as we didn't want to have problems with kids having friends over and "play fighting" and having the dog misunderstand.

There's not much point to arguing that what a dog was bred for makes no difference.

[VAHorseGurl]

... a certain less savory segment of society that is more violent than most of us are willing to accept.

Can you explain what you mean by this? :confused:

Gang members.

I think what is missing here is that while yes, LA is known for it's gangbangers, it's not entirely that acult that is the issue.

There are other 'normal' or blue collar folks who choose to own this breed because of a number of reasons and they end up failing the dog in one way or another by being irresponsible enough not to understand that this breed may not suit their life style needs.

[VAHorseGurl]

What I wonder is why there are so many pit-type owners such as Pirateer who do not understand that there is a real problem with aggression among pit type dogs (I don't think most of the dogs in question are purebred AmStaffs). If they are not getting it from their breed associations, where are they getting it?

Ambrey, folks like myself and Pirateer do not fail to see anything with regard to the breed(s) we choose to own, and we surely do not sit back and watch as folks indiscriminately breed dogs, aggressive or otherwise.

The problem being is that the 'pit type dog' is registerable under a number of monickers; American Staffordshire, American Pit Bull, Staffordshire Terrier, etc. There is the UKC, AKC, and the worthless CKC or Continental Kennel Club among other individually setup Registerable Clubs and their Ethical Guidelines.

I liken the Pit problem to that of our national debt, we know it's there, but we don't do anything about it. Or that of our nations drug problem, we all know it exists, but heaven help the person who goes out of their way to help those lost souls.

Until people stop being irresponsible, stop seeing puppies of any breed bred indiscriminately as a value in which to line their pockets, there is no solution to this problem. There is nothing to be done to prevent it from continuing to happen because no one wants to take it on.

They merely want to hate the breed, threaten to kill it should it step out of line and NEVER hold the owner as responsible for the animal's actions.

[Ambrey]

I think what is missing here is that while yes, LA is known for it's gangbangers, it's not entirely that acult that is the issue.

There are other 'normal' or blue collar folks who choose to own this breed because of a number of reasons and they end up failing the dog in one way or another by being irresponsible enough not to understand that this breed may not suit their life style needs.

I agree, but I do think it's important to recognize that there are those who are breeding them FOR aggression- making more aggressive bloodlines, which are then excaping back into the gene pool.

To me, there is a big difference between "not suitable for the average owner" and "liable to maul children if allowed."

eta: I don't think you and Pirateer are in the same group. I am talking about people who think that the pit bull issue is blown out of proportion, that they are not really an issue, that they are just like any dog and don't need special handling or anything.

[VAHorseGurl]

I thought about this thread at 5a.m. this morning while I was watching the local news, was up feeding my 3 week old son. Two more child deaths, one a 7 year old child, mauled by a pit... the other was an 18 month old baby, killed by a pit in Luling, TX. This was within the last few weeks aparently... sickening, absolutely sickening if you ask me... just validifys my hatred for those puke dogs:mad:

Also said on the news that they are trying to pass some lame ass law that no one under 21 can own a pit now.. what good is that going to do?? Not a damn thing..... I know just as many idiot 21 and overs as unders that shouldn't own a killing machine.....


Defend them all you want pit lovers...... lets hear how your pit would NEVER ever, do something like this:yes:


What an awful waste of energy. :mad: Concentrate on your baby and leave those of us who are responsible enough to want to own this breed alone!

You are working your way on my ignore list and I don't ignore anyone.

[VAHorseGurl]

If everyone had your attitude, I'd have no complaints. You're really the first pit enthusiast I've "met" who is willing to embrace the issue, though.

It's like the "elephant in the living room" analogy- people just talk around the issue of the dangerous pit type dogs but never really acknowledge that they exist.


What, I'm easily that forgotten? I'm heartbroke now. ;)

[Ambrey]

LOL, you didn't embrace it until later in the thread.

[VAHorseGurl]

LOL, you didn't embrace it until later in the thread.

LOL actually, I've embraced those very same views from the first time I realized I had just adopted a controversial breed and from there, it just spiraled out of control for me.

I would never tell someone they should own a pit, because like an English Mastiff, Pits aren't for everyone. Oh, and I have one of those too. ;)

I now own 3 Pits, my eldest being 14yr and she's never harmed a hair on a a living being, human or animal, but then I would have never left her alone with children or anyone who didn't understand her abilities. She is very dog aggressive, but loves and grew up with several cats. Still, would never leave her alone with a strange animal and she's never alone with my 3yro female.

My 3yro male is so heavily prey driven, I've already made arrangements that should anything ever happen to me, he's to be humanely euthanized instead of rehomed or passed off to a Rescue.

My 3yro female who started out as a foster, is also to be humanely euthanized should anything happen to me and I'm unable to care for them any longer.

And to those who ask me why I choose to own this breed, I cannot answer your question with a response that would satisfy your curiousity. It's like asking you why you choose to own the dog you do or the horse you do, every one will have some horror story about that breed of dog or horse to justify why you or I shouldn't own it.

I just thank my GOD daily for allowing me to live in the US where, at the moment, I'm still FREE to make my own decisions and live as I see fit. And hold my own opinions regardless of how everyone else may feel.

[Ambrey]

Interesting, VA. I must say your honestly about your dogs is refreshing!

I'd love to think BSL would help- having to have a special license to breed pits, etc. But as we've already established that the people breeding the bad dogs really could give a flying fig about the law, and we can't even keep them from killing other people much less breeding dogs, I can't see how it would hurt anyone except people like you.

As far as I know, here in "bad pit central" BSL is generally discarded as unworkable. Animal Control just doesn't have the manpower to enforce it.

[Sansena]

He was moved to a rehab facility today.
His eye is fine.. the eyeball was unscathed, and the scar will be on his upper eyelid only, thank goodness.
His sutures on his forearm are still in place but the puncture wounds are healing nicely. He no longer requires a bandage.. tho' he's being watched for swelling.
Billy's biggest complaint these days is he's itchy (you know how wounds heal), and he misses seeing his kid all the time.

I'll send him all your well wishes.

[grayarabs]

Thanks for the update. Glad he is doing so well.

[MistyBlue]

Sansena...wonderful to hear. :D And very relieved his eyeball is okay.

[vacation1]

But, for the folks who genuinely love these breeds, honestly, what more would you suggest we do? The normal folks have, time and again, spoken out against dog fighting, improper training, breeding for aggression and other undesirable traits.... Pit rescues, who sometimes do not have the luxury of knowing anything about the dog's background, have an extensive evaluation process to test for aggression . They are also very careful about placement of these dogs who do not test as aggressive. (an aggressive dog will not be placed.)... So, speaking for myself, I acknowledge the problem! But I see it as a problem with "bad people" who have created dangerous dogs. Supporters are doing everything they can to address the problem and stop it.

I completely disagree with that last statement, and would argue with much of the rest. The people running the pro-pit show are doing their breed no favors with their focus on PR spins and 'saving' pit bulls as individuals, and they do indeed place dogs with aggression - as long as it's aggression toward other dogs. They 'speak out' against dog fighting without committing to the one thing that could actually limit fighting - ie, elimination of dog-aggression as an acceptable trait in the breed(s). Which means, given the pit population, both accepting and participating in the euthanization of pit bulls who exhibit dog aggression, and the exact sort of bred-focused measures the pit bull rescues and fans fight constantly, calling it breedism and racism and Nazi-like. But what's the point of saying that dog fighting is wrong and Michael Vick was a monster (which he was, absolutely) if your official position on DA in pit bulls is that it's a breed tendency and some levels are acceptable? Dog fighting is already a federal offense; it gets taken about as seriously as you can take a crime. And it's rampant; I am continually amazed at how common it is. And that's because it is so easy to get a hold of a pit bull that can be made to fight another dog seriously. It is not going to go away until you change the breed, and the only way to change the breed is to eliminate the ones who have that trait. I don't mean you go into people's houses and kill their pets; I mean when you run a 'rescue' you don't give them a pass for being pits with DA, you actually hold them to a higher standard than you would a Dachshund with DA.

The thing that gets me is that DA is such an ugly, twisted trait. I can see fighting the idea of getting rid of a collie's herding instinct or a setter's pointing instinct, but why is it so unthinkable to eliminate one of the most abnormal things we've ever done to a domesticated animal, making it want to automatically kill one of its own species? I've seen DA dogs in action, and they're happy. They're like a Lab with a tennis ball, their tails are wagging and they're loving life. As they try to kill another dog, a dog they should be ignoring or playing with or mating with or sparring with - it's a really artificial and sick trait we created, and it needs to go.

[Rivermeer]

I don't expect small minded people to understand the breed. They obviously have tunnel vission. What I can say as a person who has done numerous rescues and adopted many of the undesirables, that the dogs mostly I have had are truely thankful for a home with rules, boundries, and love.

Most have flourished. Some don't bounce back, because of uprbringing and circumstance, but when they come to my house, they are either pts., adopted, or they have a forever home, like my beloved Mustang. Who was dog aggressive to other especially female dogs. She was really decent with others.

But ya know what, I knew her limitations, and didnt put her in a position to get her in trouble.

I live in a city and put up a 6 foot privacy fence around the property.

I am tired of the crazy attitude of "they will eat your kids" attitude.

I heard that from one of the workers from my dads business, about my beloved Billy, my first Rottweiller.

I had brought Billy in my dads shop numerous times and he quickly became a favorite of Gary who "stereotyped" him. He used to say that he would take Billy home with him any time.

Billy at 11 1/2 got pancreatitus and then bloated and had to be euthanized, truely the worst day of my life. Billy was my first ever dog after being an adult and living on my own.

RIP Billy, good show Rottweiller, and best friend ever!

Heather

[Rivermeer]

Ambrey,

I am not a breeder, but a rescuer. I live unfortunately where pits are common. They are certainly not taken care of, loved, vet care, etc., as a person that has seen the good and bad, I can tell you that they are not a loose cannon. They are a breed who tell you who they are. They want love and stability. Most people don't see that because of their breed. I have yet to see ANY breed not limited to pits who, just turn on people. There are always clues that the dog needs work. The NILF program works wonders with any breed. If a unstable animal attacks, there are clues. And i do not believe for a minute that they just become mean or unstable at any given time.

Heather

[Blinkers On]

I cannot tell you how many times we've pleaded with certain neighbors to keep their dogs home. After having a few goats killed, some barn cats killed, and horses ran thru the fence being chased... thats when we had to draw the line. I would only blame myself if my dogs got capped.

Never tossed a carcass back to the owners, but not a terrible idea for a certain few!

I was actually not going to comment, but CA, you make some disturbing, interesting and contradictory statements. And of course as a pit owner and a shepherd mix owner I will tell you the prey drive in the shepherd mix is a million times what the pit is. Infact the pit exhibits none. The shepherd is aggressive. So I do have a hard time buying in to the pits are a waste of space mentality. Maybe had I not met and researched and lived with the breed I might be able to buy it, but I can't. I have no prove that my pit is bad. She always proves how kind and fun and adaptable she is. The shepherd is fun and has a load of personality, but he isn't the dog to take to a dog park or let run loose. He would have to herd and chase and cause a problem. The Pit I wouldn't take to a dog park just because of the uneducated views of many such as yourself. I value the lives of my dogs and therefore recognise what is good and bad, their strengths and their weaknesses. Needless to say people do get pits for the look of tough or the presumed protection. People who don't know how to own or raise ANY dog. The Shepherd had/has a 3 strikes you are out rule. He made it to two, he is almost 10. The pit has one strike and she is out. She is no where near one. Different dogs, different personalities, more experience at the helm of their educational needs. I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT think that pits need to be owned by just anyone. Lord knows it gives them a bad name and enough ammunition for the haters to build up steam, and responsible owners pay the price.
My older dog had a history of getting out of the yard. No fence was high enough, digging was his friend, IF I hadn't found a way to make him want to be home, he would have been euthanized or in a pen with a top and cement bottom. That would be the responsible thing to do. Same goes for the pit. BUT she loves to be at home and has never been a problem.
The breed is paying the price for the ignorant people who own them and the rest are just victims in the witch hunt... speaking of witch, how many burned at the stake were witches? None.
So I ask you this CA, what breed were the dogs that numerous times killed or maimed your animals. Dogs you "continually requested be corralled??? So?? I am confused .When you say that all dogs who pose a threat to your animals are dead dogs, esp the one breed that you think is a waste of space, why then do you have numerous incidents of injury?
Since you have neighbors with pits and clearly other breeds as well, which breed has been the biggest offender. One would assume that if the pits in your neighborhood were the culprit you would be on a killing spree and yet you say you have had numerous attacks on your stock. Which breed of dog is responsible for the attacks on your animals? Enquiring minds want to know. After your grandios statements, it would be hipcritical to allow one breed to terrorize your stock while taking a show no mercy on another breed. So how many notches on your belt and how many are or are not pits?

[Blinkers On]

Living in Alaska might be your issue here, and why you are calling people idiots when actually you're quite separated from the issue and really not clear on what's going on.

I live in the "greater Los Angeles area" and pit bulls are one of the most popular breeds to be owned by... a certain less savory segment of society that is more violent than most of us are willing to accept. The majority of pits found in animal shelters, which are a huge percentage of the shelter animals, are bred in less than reputable conditions, and often have genetic backgrounds that the AmStaff society or whatever pit-type associations exist are turning a blind eye to.

And the majority of severe human maulings in this area over the last several years have been pit bulls. That is just the plain truth.


Ambrey, I live in the burbs of LA and a large # of dogs in rescues and the SPCA are pits. Mine one of those. Pasadena SPCA to be exact.
People here don't hae to fight dogs on American soil. Mexico is so close. They still fight c*cks as well. It's not right but hey lets eradicate c*cks also. Are roosters bad?? Only if they are brought up to be and have blades attatched to their legs. Then they are brutal. Yay TJ!!
Bad or lazy people don't have the majority of owned pits, but it is the responsible people that do. My pit would be a waste of dog in a fight. She would be the first one dead for loosing. The shepherd is every dog fighters wet dream.
Breeds are only as good as their weakest link. And the weakest link for pits is the human.

[gieriscm]

He was moved to a rehab facility today.
His eye is fine.. the eyeball was unscathed, and the scar will be on his upper eyelid only, thank goodness.
His sutures on his forearm are still in place but the puncture wounds are healing nicely. He no longer requires a bandage.. tho' he's being watched for swelling.
Billy's biggest complaint these days is he's itchy (you know how wounds heal), and he misses seeing his kid all the time.

I'll send him all your well wishes.

Thank you for the update. I hope the dog owner ends up paying the bills for this.

[Auventera Two]

Well, for what its worth - here's my "killer."

http://www.hphoofcare.com/LocheNLoad.jpg

I love him! :D He's a GREAT boy. Abused of course, came loaded with physical and mental scars, intact male, absolutely NO training, terrified of everything - including humans and his own shadow. He was full of worms (puked them up on my carpet), bolted his food until he would puke. He would stroke out if he saw a broom or a manure rake. He's now the best dog we've ever had. He is 110 pounds of pure bumbling silly antics and big sloppy goofiness. Could he just "snap" one day and kill us all???? Well sure - but so could the UPS driver, the kid bagging groceries at the store or my next door neighbor. ;)

He is the 2nd Pit in our family and they have both been absolutely fantastic family dogs without a mean bone in their bodies.

Stupid morons should not own powerful breeds. The dogs are NOT the problem - the idiots that tie them up to dog houses under the old pine tree are the problems.

[Angela Freda]

He was moved to a rehab facility today.
His eye is fine.. the eyeball was unscathed, and the scar will be on his upper eyelid only, thank goodness.
His sutures on his forearm are still in place but the puncture wounds are healing nicely. He no longer requires a bandage.. tho' he's being watched for swelling.
Billy's biggest complaint these days is he's itchy (you know how wounds heal), and he misses seeing his kid all the time.

I'll send him all your well wishes.

Goodness thank you for updating us on the PONY.
So glad to hear he's healing.

Any news on whether the person who caused the injuries is paying for his recovery?

[Auventera Two]

I don't expect small minded people to understand the breed. They obviously have tunnel vission. What I can say as a person who has done numerous rescues and adopted many of the undesirables, that the dogs mostly I have had are truely thankful for a home with rules, boundries, and love.

Most have flourished. Some don't bounce back, because of uprbringing and circumstance, but when they come to my house, they are either pts., adopted, or they have a forever home, like my beloved Mustang. Who was dog aggressive to other especially female dogs. She was really decent with others.

But ya know what, I knew her limitations, and didnt put her in a position to get her in trouble.

I live in a city and put up a 6 foot privacy fence around the property.

I am tired of the crazy attitude of "they will eat your kids" attitude.

I heard that from one of the workers from my dads business, about my beloved Billy, my first Rottweiller.

I had brought Billy in my dads shop numerous times and he quickly became a favorite of Gary who "stereotyped" him. He used to say that he would take Billy home with him any time.

Billy at 11 1/2 got pancreatitus and then bloated and had to be euthanized, truely the worst day of my life. Billy was my first ever dog after being an adult and living on my own.

RIP Billy, good show Rottweiller, and best friend ever!

Heather

Excellent post Heather, I agree with everything you said. I had to quote it just for emphasis. :)

The first Pit our family had was a purebred from a breeder. She was a super duper great dog. Pits are so loveable and silly. They truly have a sense of humor. They'll crawl right in your lap and go to sleep on your shoulder - like they're a house cat or a 6 pound Chihuahua. They don't know the difference! LOL. They see a LAP! And they need to SIT IN IT!

Not everyone should own a breeding stallion, and neither should everyone own a powerful breed dog. But just because somebody else can't handle them, doesn't mean that some of the rest of us can't either. ;) A Pit is NOT the dog for everybody. No matter how great your dog is, you still have to be aware of laws, and other people who are terrified of them. Same as people who own stallions and compete them with the general public. Your horse may not be the problem but all the other terrified people running around with a crucifix ARE the problem.

We all know that animals feed off of OUR emotions. When the human is scared, the animal can be uneasy also.

My dad farm sits for us when we're not home, but he's scared of my guy just because he's a "big ugly monster." So - the dog does not stay at home with dad. I can't set either of them up for failure like that. I have to make other arrangements for him and that's that. Not that the dog is vicious or untrustworthy, but because leaving a 110 pound Pit in a house with a person who is terrified of him is just plain not smart. You have all that tension and unstable energy flying around and it's a bad situation for all involved.

There have been LOTS of dogs over the years that I did not trust, and did not feel easy around, and none of them were big powerful breeds. They were all your typical "family breeds" that were agressive, loud and obnoxious, untrained, abused, etc....

Whenever someone asks what breed of dogs I have, I tell them - Weim, Hound, and a Pit Bull. "Ohhhhhhh, my god, really???? Wow." Like you just said you are keeping an alien from the planet of Zardon in your basement or something. I mean really people. Good grief.

[VAHorseGurl]

I completely disagree with that last statement, and would argue with much of the rest. The people running the pro-pit show are doing their breed no favors with their focus on PR spins and 'saving' pit bulls as individuals, and they do indeed place dogs with aggression - as long as it's aggression toward other dogs. They 'speak out' against dog fighting without committing to the one thing that could actually limit fighting - ie, elimination of dog-aggression as an acceptable trait in the breed(s). Which means, given the pit population, both accepting and participating in the euthanization of pit bulls who exhibit dog aggression, and the exact sort of bred-focused measures the pit bull rescues and fans fight constantly, calling it breedism and racism and Nazi-like. But what's the point of saying that dog fighting is wrong and Michael Vick was a monster (which he was, absolutely) if your official position on DA in pit bulls is that it's a breed tendency and some levels are acceptable? Dog fighting is already a federal offense; it gets taken about as seriously as you can take a crime. And it's rampant; I am continually amazed at how common it is. And that's because it is so easy to get a hold of a pit bull that can be made to fight another dog seriously. It is not going to go away until you change the breed, and the only way to change the breed is to eliminate the ones who have that trait. I don't mean you go into people's houses and kill their pets; I mean when you run a 'rescue' you don't give them a pass for being pits with DA, you actually hold them to a higher standard than you would a Dachshund with DA.

The thing that gets me is that DA is such an ugly, twisted trait. I can see fighting the idea of getting rid of a collie's herding instinct or a setter's pointing instinct, but why is it so unthinkable to eliminate one of the most abnormal things we've ever done to a domesticated animal, making it want to automatically kill one of its own species? I've seen DA dogs in action, and they're happy. They're like a Lab with a tennis ball, their tails are wagging and they're loving life. As they try to kill another dog, a dog they should be ignoring or playing with or mating with or sparring with - it's a really artificial and sick trait we created, and it needs to go.

What do you suggest other powerful breed owners do once all pits are irradicated and the irresponsible are looking for yet another breed to use? :mad:

Why the hell not just get rid of all powerful dogs? *last part was complete sarcasm :mad:

PETA friendly are ya?

[Riley0522]

Glad to hear Billy's doing fine and will make a full recovery. I sure hope the dog owners are paying for his vet bills.

Auventura, your guy is BEAUTIFUL!!!

[dragon1958]

In the end, whether the dog is a toy breed or power breed or a herd breed or a hunting breed, if it belongs to me...I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT IT DOES. If my dog bites people, kills animals, chases cars, scares small children etc. I AM RESPONSIBLE. If I go on vacation and leave it with the wrong people and it gets into trouble...I AM RESPONSIBLE. If I own a dog and I can't keep it contained and it hurts others....I AM RESPONSIBLE.

I wish we could get passed the breed issue and get to a responsiblity issue because the bottom line to me is that if I choose to own any breed of dog and it gets into trouble....I AM RESPONSIBLE.

[bort84]

On a similar topic, have any of you ever heard about the Louisiana pony with the artificial limb? The pony survived Hurricane Katrina only to be attacked by pit bulls while she was in foster care.

I can't remember her name, but I believe she is a POA. Anyway, vets at LSU couldn't save her leg, but they did fit her with an artificial limb. Today she works as a therapy pony and visits disabled chindren. A book about her was published last year.

I know a couple other people probably responded to this, but I wanted to post after I saw it so I didn't lose the post in this thread that has gotten pretty lengthy.

Yes, it's Molly, and one of the local New Orleans vets that took care of her was Dr. Allison Barca. She was my vet while I lived in New Orleans (pre and post-Katrina). She's a super dressage rider and a fabulous vet. I can't remember what the article was in... There was a write up in one of the local horse club's news letters I think...

As to pit bulls - I've only known good ones, but I think it would be great if something could be done to control the ownership and containment of these dogs. Honestly, I've been bitten by labs, cocker spaniels, schnauzers, little dogs, etc, but never a pit (or a rottie/dobie/boxer/etc), haha. This is not to say they aren't often dangerous dogs, but I think it's usually when they are owned/bred by unsavory folks.

I think they have developed into a more dangerous breed because of the jerks that own them. It's super trendy to have a pit as your dangerous accessory. I don't get it. But because of this, they are bred by BYBs that make money selling them to craptastic folks...

I've known too many fabulous pits to think they should be outlawed, but I do wish there was a good way to keep them owned by good people. Because of their look and repuation, they are sought after by people that aren't always the best doggie owners. It's unfortunate, and I like some of the ideas presented on here to have a license required or whatever, even if it would be challenging to regulate. You have to start somewhere.

If some of the people that owned pits knew they could be fined HEAVILY for improperly containing their pit or not registering their ownership, I think you'd see some people pass. A lot of the folks that are not such great dog owners that choose to own pits often can't afford proper dog care (vets, food, etc) let alone a fine for having a pit improperly registered or whatever. Again, hard to implement, but a nice start.

I'm sure there would be some unintended consequences (some dogs might be euthanized instead of rescued, but that's a better choice than letting an innocent dog go to a bad owner).

[Auventera Two]

I don't understand the increasing fascination over the years of the PitBull.
With so many other breeds/mixes to choose a dog from - why choose the most controversial?

And I don't understand the fascination with Arabians. :confused: They are smash faced, cow hocked, flat crouped, flippy tailed, stupid, hot, unpredictable, spindly legged, majikal lunatics that can't trot their way out of a paper bag.

;)

By the way - my Arabian mare gets my best stall, and always will.

The truth is, whatever your chosen breed of dog, horse, cat, bird, SOMEBODY somewhere won't quite embrace your breed of choice the way you do. I don't need to justify my connection to Arabians or Pit Bulls to anyone. And neither does anyone else. Every dog and every horse is an individual. Are there stupid Arabians with horrible breeding and conformation that can't be ridden? Sure there are. Are their killer Pit Bulls that can't be trusted not to eat the house cat? Of course. But to condemn an entire breed and those that love them and own this is ignorant and silly.

[Ambrey]

Sorry, A2, it's more "not getting it." The dogs I'm talking about don't turn magically into nice doggies when they are put into a loving home. They are dangerous. Pit bull owners need to know that those dogs are out there and, when faced with the "wow, you have a pit bull?" comments, explain the situation (that there are people breeding for family dogs, and people breeding for violent dogs, and that one doesn't turn into the other). If you got your dog from a shelter, you just got lucky.

[grayarabs]

I am looking at this from the angle of when I go out and walk my dogs. Suburbs with lots of people and lots of dogs. There are probably ten PB's that live within 100 yards of me.
A few years ago there were none. The ones around here are owned by folks that should not even have a dog - much less a PB. While the average dog owner around here takes their dogs to the vet, spays and neuters and shots, walks their dogs on proper leash, provides shelter and hopefully picks up after their dogs - we see the PB owners not doing these things. Yes - this is owner mistake but it still makes things difficult for the rest of us. The other day I opened my front door and there was a pitbull right there on my front steps - on a leash - with the owner - WTH? The owner could not handle the dog - it was dragging her all over the place - I guess to my front door where it smelled my dogs.
I am so glad I was not heading out to walk one of my dogs at that time - it could have been bad - ie my dogs defending their territory etc. I guess it is knowing what PB's are capable of doing and seeing so many of them around here and seeing that the owners are the least responsible - it is just really a problem. I am sorry - just seeing a loose pit bull scares me. There just have been too many close calls. Perhaps folks that live in the country don't see as many PB's as do folks that live in cities and suburbs.

[Auventera Two]

If you got your dog from a shelter, you just got lucky.

I did not get my dog from a shelter, and there is no such thing as "luck" in taking in a rescued Pit. It is called informed decision based upon personality analysis and knowledge of the breed. When the dog started "showing up" at my farm, my intent was to catch him and euthanize him. I didn't need a 3rd dog. Say nothing about an intact male who was obviously very abused and neglected. I didn't need more vet bills and work added to my itenerary every day.

It took over 2 months to even CATCH the dog, he was so wild. The day I finally did catch him, it took 2 hours with a can of dog food and a leash, sitting on the driveway in my PJs have a conversation in pack dynamics. Did I take a chance with my safety by catching him? Sure I did. But it was my decision to do it. I also take a chance with my safety everytime I mount a horse, but I choose to do that as well. ;)

I spent all day working with him intensely, evaluating his behavior and reactions to my body language. I walked him all over the farm endlessly to form pack boundaries and heirarchy. I lead - he follows. End of discussion. His head doesn't go forward in front of my knee. I stop, he stops. I look at him in the eyes - he looks away. And so forth.

I did all that to evaluate whether he was even WORTH saving. It was not "luck" you can be assured of that. For the first month he stayed in a kennel on the porch. He was on a very strict schedule. He was neutered. He was nutured and trained every day.

His body language has NEVER even once told me that he has any tendency to be dominant. A dog NEVER just freaks out and attacks somebody one day. There is ALWAYS warning signs but most people just never see it coming. A dog is either a born leader or a born follower, or they may become a leader when theirs doesn't exist anymore. As long as this dog always has a stable, benevolant leader, there will not be any issues with him. People like to sensationalize the big scary monster Pit Bulls, but the truth is - it's a DOG. Unless the animal is mentally unstable, the dog will follow the given pack order until the day it dies.

Pack leaders determine when the pack eats (takes down prey), sleeps, mates, and plays. Subordinate pack members don't just decide to go tearing across a field and take down a prey animal without the rest of its pack. When any dog attacks another animal or human, it is because that dog was left alone without pack leadership, or that dog believes that he/she is the pack leader. And these are HUMAN ERRORS.

When we all go through a door, Loche hangs back and goes out last. When met with eye contact, he turns his head away. When I step into his space, he moves back. When you do these things to a dog, and they stand their ground, or they challenge you by flying through a door first, knocking you out of the way, or they stare back at you, or the lip curls up, or any other agressive body language, then you know you have a dog with agressive tendencies.

Why do you think in that photo I posted, he is looking away - not looking at the eye of the camera???? I couldn't get him to look straight at me for anything. Me staring straight at him with a camera made him turn his head aside in submission.

This dog, given consistent and stable leadership, boundaries, and pack structure is about the LAST candidate for "suddenly turning agressive."

Our other Pit was just like this guy. Now, if you have a Pit (or any dog!) who meets your eye contact with a hard stare, or rushes your space, or continually disrespects pack order, you better take serious inventory of what's going on because you're headed for trouble. The difference in a Pit and Yorkie is that the Pit has more power to back up the aggression.

If Lochey had shown ANY and I mean ANY tendency toward disrespecting pack leadership, he would not be living in my house today, but he would be buried behind the barn. It has nothing to do with luck. ;)

[Ambrey]

If Lochey had shown ANY and I mean ANY tendency toward disrespecting pack leadership, he would not be living in my house today, but he would be buried behind the barn. It has nothing to do with luck. ;)

I meant luck in that he was that type and not the other- because far too many people believe that all pits have the potential to be great family dogs, and I firmly believe (as do many pit owners/breeders) that this is not the case.

It's that thinking- that it's always a person problem, with the (not logical but still constantly present) corrolary that the right person can fix the dog that I fear. Because the fact that bad people caused the dog to be born in the first place doesn't necessarily mean that the dog can be made into a dog that is safe for anyone to own.

[Auventera Two]

The ones around here are owned by folks that should not even have a dog - much less a PB.

And that's the real problem - not the dogs.

While the average dog owner around here takes their dogs to the vet, spays and neuters and shots, walks their dogs on proper leash, provides shelter and hopefully picks up after their dogs - we see the PB owners not doing these things.

If every owner of every Pit Bull in your neighborhood espouses the mentality of neglect, then they shouldn't own ANY dog, Pit or otherwise. The breed they own is completely irrelevant. If the people are white trash losers, and they choose to own Pits, how is that the fault of the breed?

Yes - this is owner mistake but it still makes things difficult for the rest of us. The other day I opened my front door and there was a pitbull right there on my front steps - on a leash - with the owner - WTH? The owner could not handle the dog - it was dragging her all over the place - I guess to my front door where it smelled my dogs.

Ever been to the pet store or dog park? They are FULL of owners who cannot control their dogs. You see Black Labs, GSDs and mixed breed hauling their owners all over the place. Has nothing to do with the breed.

I am so glad I was not heading out to walk one of my dogs at that time - it could have been bad - ie my dogs defending their territory etc. I guess it is knowing what PB's are capable of doing and seeing so many of them around here and seeing that the owners are the least responsible - it is just really a problem. I am sorry - just seeing a loose pit bull scares me. There just have been too many close calls. Perhaps folks that live in the country don't see as many PB's as do folks that live in cities and suburbs.

I think a lot of the problem with Pits is the media hysteria, hyping them up to be monsters. Everybody run for the storm cellar! There's a killer Pit Bull walking down the street! This kind of nervous, unstable energy only fuels the fire. It is not in a dog's nature to live with nervous, unstable energy. Dogs with unstable personalities are kicked out of their packs, or killed by pack members. Unstable personalities get the pack in trouble. They cause discontent, and strife. When a human is reactive and fearful around any dog, that dog is much more likely to also become nervous, flightly, and reactive.

What if a horse owner handled their horse with fear and unstable energy? What if you screamed and ran to the tack room and hid everytime your horse pinned his ears at you? The animal would end up unstable, spoiled, and aggressive.

Your mentality is why I will never ever take my dog to the pet store, or a dog park, or anywhere in public where there will be nervous scared people acting fearful around him. It's not that the dog is bad, but that people have been conditioned to act so fearful and eratic around them, that honestly I don't want my dog exposed to that kind of unstable energy. He's a great boy and he's really pulled his load to become a useful, functioning member of our pack, and it would not be fair to the dog.

[Auventera Two]

I meant luck in that he was that type and not the other- because far too many people believe that all pits have the potential to be great family dogs, and I firmly believe (as do many pit owners/breeders) that this is not the case.

It's that thinking- that it's always a person problem, with the (not logical but still constantly present) corrolary that the right person can fix the dog that I fear. Because the fact that bad people caused the dog to be born in the first place doesn't necessarily mean that the dog can be made into a dog that is safe for anyone to own.

I agree with you completely in this regard. Not every dog will be a good dog. And sometimes the dog might be great in the right family, but a terror in the wrong hands. That is true of all animals. And even kids! :lol:

[bort84]

I think most people agree not every dog is going to be perfect even if put in a good home. There are a few people out there that are just gifted and could deal with almost any dog (or horse) that came their way, but these types of people are certainly not the majority.

I think pit bull owners have been backed into a corner by people constantly saying how freaking crazy psycho their breed of choice is. It's natural for them to say that most pits are actually good dogs if they are handled appropriately (this is true of almost all "bad" horses and dogs). That's not ignoring a problem. I think most of the pit bull owners out there realize that the dogs often require more ability on the handler's part because they have certain traits bred into them. I think most pit bull owners will tell you this. Many do say, "My dog would never..." and many of them are right and take the precautions to make sure they would never...

I would hardly go so far as to say that responsible pit bull owners are the problem because they ignore the fact that the dogs can be dangerous. Few responsible pit bull owners actually think their dogs are perfect and could NEVER NEVER be dangerous. It's the idiots out there that aren't educated about dogs and decide to get pit bulls that cause the issue - this includes well-meaning folks that just don't know as well as jerks that try to create a dangerous dog to look cool.

The pit bull advocates are hardly trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the unsuspecting public so that everyone in the country decides to go get a pit bull... Unfortunately, that seems to be the attitude of people that are freaked out by the breed.

Responsible owners just don't want their right to have their dogs taken from them because of the idiots out there that don't understand the responsibility that comes with owning a powerful dog. That's completely fair. There are far far too many of these dogs that are wonderful citizens and have wonderful qualities.

Also, another interesting point - there have been a few places that have reversed bans on pit bulls because they found it did NOTHING to help reduce the number of dog fighting operations or the number of dog attacks... Just saying that maybe the current regulations to try and make the streets safer from bad pit bulls aren't all that helpful - might be time to try something else.

[Riley0522]

Thank you Bort! Excellent post!

We got our first girl from a shelter in a high volume fighting area, being told she has high prey drive, a ton of energy and she was marked very dog aggressive. She was 37lbs when we got her. She is also blue brindle and has bad food allergies. Now that she's fed properly (which wasn't the shelter's fault, I don't expect them to feed premium dog food), she is literally 60lbs of solid muscle. The vet was like "Wow, I can't find any fat on her!"

Could this dog be a disaster in the wrong hands? Absolutely! Is she the PERFECT dog in my home, living happily in our pack of 3 Pit Bulls? ABSOLUTELY! Hands down the best dog I've ever owned....the easiest, no, but she is awesome!

[turningpointequine]

My lord, did we forget the Michael Vick case already? Those were obviously "fighting dogs" yet I belive all but one were rehomed due to wonderful personalities. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[vacation1]

What do you suggest other powerful breed owners do once all pits are irradicated and the irresponsible are looking for yet another breed to use? :mad: Why the hell not just get rid of all powerful dogs? *last part was complete sarcasm :mad:

I did pick up on the sarcasm, but thanks for the heads up. If dog-aggression was eradicated in the general population of pit bulls, that would force people who wanted to fight dogs to breed their own. No more picking up strays, no more getting them from lax shelters, no more stealing someone's pet. They'd be forced to spend serious money breeding the DA back into the dogs, and that would cut the problem way down. That would leave other 'powerful' breeds right where they are now - a mixed population, some bad and some good but none with a huge target on their back. The breed with the worst problem after pit bulls is probably the Rottie because they're common enough to make getting hold of one fairly simple. The nightmare scenario of breeds like Cane Corsos and Filas becoming the new faves - well, that hasn't happened yet because pit bulls are cheaper and easier. Take away the cheapness and availability of pit bulls, and sure some people might turn to these breeds. But like pit bull fans always say, pit bulls tend to be fairly tolerant of bad human handling. A lot of 'powerful' breeds aren't. Some macho kid tries to beat up his Fila to teach it toughness and he's going to be an amputee.

PETA friendly are ya?

Apart from how embarassing it is to put forth an argument that's the canine equivalent of calling someone a Nazi, it's a gross misrepresentation of what I said. PETA has in the past promoted the idea of eradicating the pit bull as a breed. I am saying the pit bull as a breed needs to change. Hardly the same thing.

[bort84]

My lord, did we forget the Michael Vick case already? Those were obviously "fighting dogs" yet I belive all but one were rehomed due to wonderful personalities. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Nope, you're right = ) I think they had to euthanize a few that were in horrible shape and couldn't be saved, but the rest went to the Best Friends shelter. There was an episode about the Michael Vick dogs on that show Dog Town (takes place at the Best Friends sanctuary).

Granted, all of these dogs had the best care and training possible and were constantly monitored. Unfortunately, a lot of pit bulls cannot get this kind of attention at a typical shelter and also are not placed as carefully.

But that was a good case to show that even dogs bred specifically to fight and used for fighting or fight training can become wonderful companions with the right handling. We just have to keep them out of the hands of the idiots out there... Seriously, I've said it before, but I really want to win the lottery and buy my own island where only people I like are let on. And I have complete veto power about who gets kicked off, haha = )

[bort84]

Take away the cheapness and availability of pit bulls, and sure some people might turn to these breeds. But like pit bull fans always say, pit bulls tend to be fairly tolerant of bad human handling. A lot of 'powerful' breeds aren't. Some macho kid tries to beat up his Fila to teach it toughness and he's going to be an amputee.

Those are both great points. For some reason, pit bulls seem to handle the abuse that often goes into teaching a dog to fight or the abuse that goes with an idiot trying to teach his dog to be a "guard" dog or "tough." Also, there are so many of them now that are often unwanted that they are easy to acquire and breed.

I get so upset about the mistreatment of animals. Anyone who likes to abuse or mistreat something that is smaller than them or unable to fight back just makes me want to vomit. I don't get it, and there is a LOT of it that happens...

[Ambrey]

I agree with you completely in this regard. Not every dog will be a good dog. And sometimes the dog might be great in the right family, but a terror in the wrong hands. That is true of all animals. And even kids! :lol:

But more so for Pits and other dogs that are being bred for aggression. It's just not the same as other dogs that don't have that issue.

[Pirateer]

My lord, did we forget the Michael Vick case already? Those were obviously "fighting dogs" yet I belive all but one were rehomed due to wonderful personalities. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought they were all sent to Best Friends to get evaluated and properly socialized- the first one was just adopted, I think, very recently.

[JanM]

Some of the Vick dogs were already adopted, and some are still at Best Friends and will always stay there-some because of background (at least one was still very aggressive and some have foster homes near there I think) and some because of psychological or health issues. The Dogtown- Best Friends special about the Vick dogs was heart breaking-one female had her teeth pulled (professionally apparently-great vet ethics there-so she couldn't fight males off during breeding), and one male was so terrified of people that he sat huddled on the ground paralyzed with fear (they suspect he was a bait dog) and the rest were so abused and neglected. There should be lots of articles out there about the fate of the dogs.

I'm not sure it's the dogs-I think it's the clueless owners. How many threads have been on here about fools that don't keep their dogs confined, or the horse owners who never teach the horses ground manners or discipline and the animals become a danger to themselves and others? I think the problems are basically stupid people who just don't know what they're doing and don't feel any need to make their animals good citizens.

[CATransplant]

What an awful waste of energy. :mad: Concentrate on your baby and leave those of us who are responsible enough to want to own this breed alone!

You are working your way on my ignore list and I don't ignore anyone.






GASP!! NO!! Please don't ignore me...:rolleyes:


In my eyes, pits are useless killing machines.... no pit lover advocate is going to convince me otherwise so chill the hell out already..... why do you care so much what I, a total stranger thinks anyway..... seriously....

[CATransplant]

whoever asked about what breeds I have shot on my property... I don't know, I really don't make notes or keep track... to be honest, most are mutts probably, tagless. we have a problem out here with people dropping off and dumping dogs all the time, they sometimes start running in packs and thats where the real problem starts.

Unless you depend on some of your livestock for income, you will never understand needing to protect them and keep from losing any. It hurts the bottom line, so don't judge. I dont go out looking to kill dogs for sport.... If my animals are threatened or attacked, I will shoot first, ask questions later... Most everyone around us subscribes to the same theory. Its just the way it is. My dogs are locked up secure and will not harm livestock, they are bred to protect. IF and IF they wandered off and got capped, I already said I would only be able to blame myself.

[turningpointequine]

In my eyes, pits are useless killing machines.... no pit lover advocate is going to convince me otherwise so chill the hell out already..... why do you care so much what I, a total stranger thinks anyway..... seriously....

We care because it's people/strangers that are not knowledgeable about the breed or have never met the breed who are putting BSL into place. Obviously those of us who own and adore our loving Pits are against BSL and want to educate others about what Pits can truly be like.

I don't understand why it's so hard to realize that there are good and bad in any species and breed. The mentality that "all are horrible" just astonishes me. Not all TB's are hot, not all Arabs are psycho, not all poodles are ankle biters and not all Pits are aggressive. I believe we've been through this before.

It just bothers me because I don't know what I would do if I couldn't come home to my lean, mean kissing machine Pit everyday. :) Can you tell I love her dearly?

[turningpointequine]

If I had any kind of political power what-so-ever one of the first things I would do is setup a system of testing before animal ownership (any species) was allowed.

The equilvalent of the written drivers test would be to determine "are you responsible enough to even own a pet" Once you've had your permit for a while you would then take the equivalent of the driving portion of the test to determine "what breeds are you capable of properly caring for".

LMAO :) I think it sounds good anyway.

[JanM]

I know shooting strays that turn into packs and prey on other animals sound mean but it sometimes is the kinder death for these abandoned animals. As I learned from my relatives who live way out in the countryside and have no animal control (actually he's worse than the SSS option-believe me) available,--they shoot strays because the other options are they starve to death, are killed by coyotes (not quickly either), or the strays attack their own dogs and other animals. It's not the fault of the landowner, it's the fault of the idiots that dump dogs off by the side of the road because they don't want to take care of them, or someone gave them a surprise gift animal they didn't want and dump. I think that if someone gets caught dumping animals it should be an automatic jail sentence and have your information published just like the sex offenders do.

[Swampskeeter]

I don't really want to get in the argument, just wanted to share.

http://www.akronnewsnow.com/news/itemdetail.asp?ID=31304&section=news&subsection=localnews


http://www.newsnet5.com/news/19120848/detail.html

[turningpointequine]

I think this page has enough examples to mae my point . . .

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/OtherBreedBites/AllDogsBite.htm

[shanky]

I think this page has enough examples to mae my point . . .

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/OtherBreedBites/AllDogsBite.htm

Point well made. I think there should be laws outlawing all terrier breeds not just pit bull terriers.


http://www.herald-dispatch.com/homepage/x607061059

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/3816542.Toddler_scarred_for_life_after_dog_attack/

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2009/03/19/family-fury-after-scottish-highland-terrier-attack-leaves-girl-5-scarred-100252-23183142/

Terriers are simply unsafe and a denger to human beings. No people would debate putting down a dangerous horse or a cougar so why do people continue keeping dangerous terriers as pets? The safety of humans must be placed above the desire of some people to have a dog that is bred for nothing but terrorizing. :mad:

[Riley0522]

Point well made. I think there should be laws outlawing all terrier breeds not just pit bull terriers.


http://www.herald-dispatch.com/homepage/x607061059

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/3816542.Toddler_scarred_for_life_after_dog_attack/

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2009/03/19/family-fury-after-scottish-highland-terrier-attack-leaves-girl-5-scarred-100252-23183142/

Terriers are simply unsafe and a denger to human beings. No people would debate putting down a dangerous horse or a cougar so why do people continue keeping dangerous terriers as pets? The safety of humans must be placed above the desire of some people to have a dog that is bred for nothing but terrorizing. :mad:

Okay.

http://dogsinthenews.com/stories/070301a.php

Damn, wish we pointlessly put down their Pit Bull, so these 2 people would be dead.

[bort84]

Point well made. I think there should be laws outlawing all terrier breeds not just pit bull terriers.

Terriers are simply unsafe and a denger to human beings. No people would debate putting down a dangerous horse or a cougar so why do people continue keeping dangerous terriers as pets? The safety of humans must be placed above the desire of some people to have a dog that is bred for nothing but terrorizing. :mad:

Hahaha, I can't decide if this is serious or not... Pretty funny either way for a variety of reasons (your statement, not the stories). Honestly, give me a pit bull any day over a jack russell = )

[bort84]

I know shooting strays that turn into packs and prey on other animals sound mean but it sometimes is the kinder death for these abandoned animals. As I learned from my relatives who live way out in the countryside and have no animal control (actually he's worse than the SSS option-believe me) available,--they shoot strays because the other options are they starve to death, are killed by coyotes (not quickly either), or the strays attack their own dogs and other animals. It's not the fault of the landowner, it's the fault of the idiots that dump dogs off by the side of the road because they don't want to take care of them, or someone gave them a surprise gift animal they didn't want and dump.

I don't think anyone really disagrees with that in most circumstances. I think the way CATransplant originally presented her stance on shooting pit bulls and all things that come on her property was just a bit, um, intense. I think if random animals come on your property and terrorize your animals, fine, do what you need to do. However, there are definitely exceptions in many cases.

For example, there is this little pit cross that has a collar on (and his testicles... silly male owners that don't understand why the balls need to come off, ick) that always comes across the street and hangs out at our barn. He never chases the horses, and he's an all around good citizen. The barn owner has repeatedly asked the owner to keep him contained but mostly because we are worried the poor thing is going to get hit by a car. I would never dream of just shooting every animal that came on my property. It's pretty easy to tell which ones are going to start trouble and which ones are just too friendly for their own good.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that I think most people on this board would agree that it's your right to protect your animals and also that there are some situations where shooting a stray might be the best option for all involved. But the way it was originally presented by CAT was not very pleasant. I think most of those posts are intended to rile and not to add anything useful to the current discussion...

[VAHorseGurl]

In the end, whether the dog is a toy breed or power breed or a herd breed or a hunting breed, if it belongs to me...I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT IT DOES. If my dog bites people, kills animals, chases cars, scares small children etc. I AM RESPONSIBLE. If I go on vacation and leave it with the wrong people and it gets into trouble...I AM RESPONSIBLE. If I own a dog and I can't keep it contained and it hurts others....I AM RESPONSIBLE.

I wish we could get passed the breed issue and get to a responsiblity issue because the bottom line to me is that if I choose to own any breed of dog and it gets into trouble....I AM RESPONSIBLE.


ABSOLUTELY PERFECT!!! Regardless of the breed of dog, it is ULTIMATELY the RESPONSIBILITY of the HUMAN owner.

[turningpointequine]

Terriers are simply unsafe and a denger to human beings. No people would debate putting down a dangerous horse or a cougar so why do people continue keeping dangerous terriers as pets? The safety of humans must be placed above the desire of some people to have a dog that is bred for nothing but terrorizing. :mad:

Hmmm, yes, horses (very large animal that can bite w/ teeth, kick with hooves) . . .lets put them all down.

cats (sharp teeth, sharp claws and agile) . . .let's put them down too

dogs (teeth and aggressive) yup, put them all down

Heck, let's just put all animals down that are a hazard to humans. I got bit by my mothers bunny when I was younger so they better go too.

Can we see the hysteria coming? If only we were at the mercy of the animals in the world . . .the world might just be a better place.

[shanky]

ABSOLUTELY PERFECT!!! Regardless of the breed of dog, it is ULTIMATELY the RESPONSIBILITY of the HUMAN owner.

And when people own a dangerous dog, they get what they deserve!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1126136/Former-French-President-Chirac-hospitalised-mauling-clinically-depressed-poodle.html

The crime is when these animals hurt OTHER PEOPLE. There is no excuse. Any dog that displays this type of aggression should be euthanized.

[MistyBlue]

So license the owners of bully breeds. License to be given on basis of behavior eval, vet referrences, must be spayed/neutered if not a breeder, etc.
Because on these BBs we're only going to see/hear from responsible owners with dog experience. So that's hardly the point to argue from.
But the facts remain that 65% or more of serious dog bite related injuries come from the recognized bully breeds or ASTs, PBs and SBTs.
Yes, that does mean that 35% come from other all other breeds. Of *serious* dog bite injuries. Not snaps, not single bites from small dogs that don't require medical help, etc.
But that doesn't change the fact that there are way too many people out there who should not have these breeds...the good owners with good dogs on here aren't responsible for the attacks that happen all too often but the ones who are causing so much pain need to be culled.
And just IMO...past fighters shouldn't be rehomed. They're too likely to have dog aggression and that's not the type of dog that needs to be out in the public being walked by Suzy Homemaker casual dog owner. Just because it won't attack people doesn't make it a great pet to have. I'd still be pretty pissed if it left me alone and went after my dog out on a walk.

[Ambrey]

Your points are based on faulty information. 50% of fatal maulings are caused by either pit bulls or rottweilers- pretending that it's not a breed specific issue is more of that "missing the point" I was discussing earlier and is not helpful to the breed.

This whole "any breed can be bad" thing is my biggest pet peeve with the pit bull action squad. Sure, any breed CAN be bad, but the Pit IS bad and is powerful enough to do more damage with their bad more often than other breeds. Just deal with that fact rather than putting out a lot of bull pretending that there's no difference between a Pit and a JRT.

[VAHorseGurl]

GASP!! NO!! Please don't ignore me...:rolleyes:


In my eyes, pits are useless killing machines.... no pit lover advocate is going to convince me otherwise so chill the hell out already..... why do you care so much what I, a total stranger thinks anyway..... seriously....

I don't care about you or what you think, what I care about is ignorance like yours that will eventually take MY RIGHT to chose to own this breed away from me. That is what bothers me.

I have 3 Pits and none of them are 'Killing Machines'. None of them have ever run amuck on someone elses property, none of them has ever harmed a living soul. And all of them came from a shelter with an unknown background and all of them are my baby's.

I should have the right, as a hard working, law biding citizen to own them without fear of ignorance like yours forcing me to put them down or move out of the rural area I chose to live in.

Vacation: My apologies for equating you to PETA/NAZI, it was not my intention, however, changing the breed and the way it's bred is or will be as easy as ridding this country of DRUGS.

I am not as elaquantly spoken as others here are, and I am a bit hotheaded. That is why I typicall avoid this topic like the plague! Because I am so attached to my Right as an American to responsibility own Pit bulls. Because I do work with a vet, a trainer, and others in this community who are just as responsible for their Pits.

What bothers me is I don't go around spouting off at the mouth about how I absolutely HATE Dobermans or Shepherds because I was viciously mauled as a child by a single dog of both breeds. Or how I can't believe someone would choose to own an Arab or some other high strung horse when there are a dozen or more calm horse they could choose from. I don't put others down or critize them for their choices to own those breeds. I don't force my opinion on others as some here are trying to do regardless of what they say to the contrary.

I don't HATE anything or anyone and it just bothers me that folks cannot simply leave those of us who are RESPONSIBLE for our dogs alone. Why not take that hatred to your local Congressman/woman or Sentor and ask them to put into law something that would make it heard for those who display irresponsibility to own a dog of any breed.

Instead of killing a dog for simply setting foot on your property (not speaking of a vicious dog terrorizing your home, property, and livestock; that is entirely different), why not catch the dog and turn it over to AC and then AC will force the owners to either 1 be responsible for the dog or 2 surrender the dog for adoption.

I am not entirely opposed to BSL, however, the old BSL has proven NOT to work in a number of communities. Why not work to enact laws that will hold people responsible for their dogs, ALL BREEDS of dog, not just the Pit bull. Impose heavy fines for aggressive dogs, stiffer penalties for dog attacks regardless of the breed. Require owners of said dogs to pay the expenses of the one(s) their dog attacked, etc.

There are a number of things that can be done, but without true enforcement, it's simply not going to get any better for anyone. And I guess that bothers me, because all I ever get is those dogs should be banned, translation, "I should have the right to RID you of your RIGHT as an American Citizen to chose the breed of dog you want, regardless of how responsible you are, it's all because of those who fail to be responsible."

[VAHorseGurl]

And when people own a dangerous dog, they get what they deserve!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1126136/Former-French-President-Chirac-hospitalised-mauling-clinically-depressed-poodle.html

The crime is when these animals hurt OTHER PEOPLE. There is no excuse. Any dog that displays this type of aggression should be euthanized.

Again, ignorance and hysteria at it's very best. For MY 3 Pit bulls have never harmed anyone!

[bludejavu]

Instead of killing a dog for simply setting foot on your property (not speaking of a vicious dog terrorizing your home, property, and livestock; that is entirely different), why not catch the dog and turn it over to AC and then AC will force the owners to either 1 be responsible for the dog or 2 surrender the dog for adoption.

[/I]"

I was with you and in agreement with your post until this paragraph. This is exactly what I did when we moved to our present farm 13 years ago. A neighbor a mile or so down the road had three pits that would roam. I'm no Pit expert, but when they come on my property, growl at me in my horse barn, growl at my horses, I see this as a real threat to my personal safety. I called AC the first time, after luring two of the pits into a horse stall and slamming the door. They came out, got the pits, and RETURNED them to the owner. This happened again less than a month later with the same exact pits. Again, AC came out, picked the dogs up and RETURNED them to the owner. A few months later, they showed up yet again. This time, they chased a newborn foal in our pasture but we managed to lure them into the barn with food. I raised absolute cain with AC and FINALLY, they did not return the dogs but euthanized them instead.

My point is that not all county AC's operate with intelligence. The "good ol' boy's club" is alive and well in my county and in neighboring counties. In fact, one county really doesn't even have an AC. After our incident with those pits and an irresponsible neighbor, we keep the shotgun handy. It works a whole lot better than our AC does.

[VAHorseGurl]

I was with you and in agreement with your post until this paragraph. This is exactly what I did when we moved to our present farm 13 years ago. A neighbor a mile or so down the road had three pits that would roam. I'm no Pit expert, but when they come on my property, growl at me in my horse barn, growl at my horses, I see this as a real threat to my personal safety. I called AC the first time, after luring two of the pits into a horse stall and slamming the door. They came out, got the pits, and RETURNED them to the owner. This happened again less than a month later with the same exact pits. Again, AC came out, picked the dogs up and RETURNED them to the owner. A few months later, they showed up yet again. This time, they chased a newborn foal in our pasture but we managed to lure them into the barn with food. I raised absolute cain with AC and FINALLY, they did not return the dogs but euthanized them instead.

My point is that not all county AC's operate with intelligence. The "good ol' boy's club" is alive and well in my county and in neighboring counties. In fact, one county really doesn't even have an AC. After our incident with those pits and an irresponsible neighbor, we keep the shotgun handy. It works a whole lot better than our AC does.

Blu,

I think you misread that part of my thread. I personally feel you had ever right to shoot those dogs, even with the first offense! Heavens, they growled at you.

The point of that paragraph was that if a dog simply meanders across your property without incendent, but those dogs growled at you and threatened a foal; by all means, shoot, sholve and forget about it.

As for your AC, I see a huge problem with their laws and rules, and potentially their lack of fines for irrepsonsible owners. It shouldn't have taken 4 incidents with these dogs for the AC to do something about it.

If I were you, I'd begin sitting in on the Town Council meetings or volunteer on the Board that governs the AC unit. Anything to help prevent that 'good ole boy' mentality and enforce and strength your local AC laws and fines.

[shanky]

I don't understand these areas that have all these packs of dogs roaming loose. Goodness! I do not care what breed of dog it is, any off the leash dogs out wilding in a pack need to be caught and contained by local officials and the owners need to pay heavy fines. If the owners are unwilliing to do this or if the authorities can not locate the owners, these dogs must be put down, end of story.

It sounds like sheer lawlessness (http://www.aitkenlaw.com/verdicts_settlements/golden_retriever.html) to me and wouldn't fly in my town!

[bludejavu]

VAHorsegirl - we're definitely on the same page then. I wasn't sure you knew how irresponsible AC could really be.

[arabhorse2]

I don't understand these areas that have all these packs of dogs roaming loose. Goodness! I do not care what breed of dog it is, any off the leash dogs out wilding in a pack need to be caught and contained by local officials and the owners need to pay heavy fines. If the owners are unwilliing to do this or if the authorities can not locate the owners, these dogs must be put down, end of story.

It sounds like sheer lawlessness (http://www.aitkenlaw.com/verdicts_settlements/golden_retriever.html) to me and wouldn't fly in my town!


Baahaahaaa!!!! You so funneeee!!! :lol:

Darlin', many of us live out in rural areas where there are no leash laws.

I'm surrounded by nothing but land, trees, and beef cattle. There's one ACO for my whole county, and he only works Monday through Friday.

Deer dogs are left loose, as are many people's pets. I don't let my dog run loose because I think it's illmannered, plus I don't want her shot for chasing anyone's livestock.

God knows what you'd do if you saw a pack of coyotes, a bobcat, or even a bear. Probably expect ACO to come out and shoot them immediately!!!!

Not everyone lives "in town". It's a big world out there. Maybe you should get out in it once in awhile!

[tkhawk]

Baahaahaaa!!!! You so funneeee!!! :lol:

!

:lol::lol::lol: Yup -Shanky sounds more like an alter having fun.:winkgrin:

[MistyBlue]

Arabhorse2...isn't VA also the state that has the right to hunt with dogs? Where private land owners have to allow hunters onto their property to look for loose dogs...which would mean to me that their dogs are allowed to roam.
Now most WELL TRAINED hunting dogs wouldn't bother anything...but they do tend to entice pet dogs to start running with them.
Shanky...there are many places in this big ol' country that dogs roam loose. There are even states that allow that. :eek: Try doing a search on this BB alone looking for roaming dog stories harassing livestock. It's definitely not uncommon. Heck, I live in CT and we're pretty densely populated...and I've had issues on and off with roaming dogs. I live in what would be termed "country" area for this state so people move to this area and think it's finally okay to let their dogs run free.
I also shoot on sight...but....I start off with a paintball rifle. Loose dogs aren't uncommon, anywhere. You may be lucky enough to live in an area that doesn't have issues with that. Consider yourself lucky. But please don't consider that the "norm" just because you personally don't experience it.

VAHorse...breath easy there. ;) Few people are trying to rid you of yoour right to own any breed of dog you choose. And posts on here stating otherwise still aren't likely to be magically transported to Congress, seen and agreed with and then passed as law nationwide. IOW...words on this BB won't change your rights. So no need to froth. :D
So howzabout licensing risky breeds/types? That way the @sshats who do own these types of dogs and don't handle them correctly and most likely have a time bomb of a canine on their hands can have their dogs removed BEFORE they eat someone's cat or tear up someone's dogs or take chunks out of someone's horse or chomp on little kids playing. That way *your* rights aren't affected at all.And the removed dogs can be evaluated and the offered for adoption to approved owners only or if determined to have a screw loose they can be humanely euthanized. And if someone has an unlicensed problem type dog removed more than once (they keep finding/getting new ones) then they're fined heavily enough to make them think before doing that again.
So how's that for a possible option?

[arabhorse2]

Arabhorse2...isn't VA also the state that has the right to hunt with dogs? Where private land owners have to allow hunters onto their property to look for loose dogs...which would mean to me that their dogs are allowed to roam.


Yes ma'am, you're correct.

I have no problem with the dogs roaming, but if they chase my horses or attack my dog in her own yard, they're going to meet Mr. Rifle and then Mr. Shovel.

Everyone who owns hunting dogs in this area knows if their animals chase livestock, that they'll be shot. We landowners know that the dogs are allowed to roam, and as long as they do it peacefully, I don't have a problem with it.

It's not the hunting dogs who tend to be the problem anyway; it's the former city/suburban pets who have no manners, and who tend to freak out with all that space and no discipline.

Most of the people who own hunting dogs also own livestock, so those dogs are taught to leave people and livestock alone.

To be honest, I have yet to meet any working dog who isn't friendly. They usually come up to you with big smiles and wagging tails.

[grayarabs]

FWIW - this was on today's Houston Chronicle's front page: article:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6363585.html

[VAHorseGurl]

FWIW - this was on today's Houston Chronicle's front page: article:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6363585.html

I'll have to sit down and read through the bill myself, but requiring an owner to hold Liability insurance is a good thing! BUT only if it is a requirement for ALL DOG Owners and not specific breed owners. As for the third and second felony charges, why not make it a felony one charge and be done with it.

As to the 2 toddlers killed in a span of a month, it's a shame, but again, the adults here are the ones who need to be help just as responsible as the dogs themselves.

I don't care who you are or what breed of dog you have, you NEVER leave a child unattended for any reason or for any amount of time with a DOG.

The female Pit had probably spent her life on that chain, never having been properly socialized or trained. But then I'm speculating, and that is a shame, for that dog will and SHOULD pay the ultimate price for it's owners ignorance and irresponsibility.

As for the grandmother, yes she's suffering emotionally, but as an adult, she should have known you never leave an infant alone with a dog, much less 2 dogs.

[JSwan]

I don't understand these areas that have all these packs of dogs roaming loose. Goodness! I do not care what breed of dog it is, any off the leash dogs out wilding in a pack need to be caught and contained by local officials and the owners need to pay heavy fines.


Well, bless your heart. Wilding in a pack? Are you talking about bored urban teenagers or dogs?


Mistyblue - your state permits hunting with dogs, too. Working dogs are usually exempt from leash laws WHEN working. When not working or in training, any leash laws apply. In this state, a hunter is required to retrieve his dog or it is deemed running at large.

[CATransplant]

I don't care about you or what you think, what I care about is ignorance like yours that will eventually take MY RIGHT to chose to own this breed away from me. That is what bothers me.

I have 3 Pits and none of them are 'Killing Machines'. None of them have ever run amuck on someone elses property, none of them has ever harmed a living soul. And all of them came from a shelter with an unknown background and all of them are my baby's.

I should have the right, as a hard working, law biding citizen to own them without fear of ignorance like yours forcing me to put them down or move out of the rural area I chose to live in.

Vacation: My apologies for equating you to PETA/NAZI, it was not my intention, however, changing the breed and the way it's bred is or will be as easy as ridding this country of DRUGS.

I am not as elaquantly spoken as others here are, and I am a bit hotheaded. That is why I typicall avoid this topic like the plague! Because I am so attached to my Right as an American to responsibility own Pit bulls. Because I do work with a vet, a trainer, and others in this community who are just as responsible for their Pits.

What bothers me is I don't go around spouting off at the mouth about how I absolutely HATE Dobermans or Shepherds because I was viciously mauled as a child by a single dog of both breeds. Or how I can't believe someone would choose to own an Arab or some other high strung horse when there are a dozen or more calm horse they could choose from. I don't put others down or critize them for their choices to own those breeds. I don't force my opinion on others as some here are trying to do regardless of what they say to the contrary.

I don't HATE anything or anyone and it just bothers me that folks cannot simply leave those of us who are RESPONSIBLE for our dogs alone. Why not take that hatred to your local Congressman/woman or Sentor and ask them to put into law something that would make it heard for those who display irresponsibility to own a dog of any breed.

Instead of killing a dog for simply setting foot on your property (not speaking of a vicious dog terrorizing your home, property, and livestock; that is entirely different), why not catch the dog and turn it over to AC and then AC will force the owners to either 1 be responsible for the dog or 2 surrender the dog for adoption.

I am not entirely opposed to BSL, however, the old BSL has proven NOT to work in a number of communities. Why not work to enact laws that will hold people responsible for their dogs, ALL BREEDS of dog, not just the Pit bull. Impose heavy fines for aggressive dogs, stiffer penalties for dog attacks regardless of the breed. Require owners of said dogs to pay the expenses of the one(s) their dog attacked, etc.

There are a number of things that can be done, but without true enforcement, it's simply not going to get any better for anyone. And I guess that bothers me, because all I ever get is those dogs should be banned, translation, "I should have the right to RID you of your RIGHT as an American Citizen to chose the breed of dog you want, regardless of how responsible you are, it's all because of those who fail to be responsible."


I really don't think you need to worry here...... I don't have the time or want to outlaw pits, but I am entitled to my opinion and I am certainly entitled to make it known, just as you have the right to love your pits and make that known. I highly doubt my opinion will make or change any laws for heavens sake! I hate them, yes I do.... so what.... My hatred or "ignorance" for feeling that way will not keep you from owning them.... if only I had that kind of power! geesh!


My aunt, of all people owned a pitbull, she bought from one of these so called "reputable" breeder, passed a in home inspection (from the breeder), the whole nine yards.... Dog was supposed to be well bred, etc... she paid a pretty penny for that dog too. well, long story short.... She lives in a very populated neighborhood in the city.... She was coming in the front door, a neighbor was out walking her dog and pushing her small child in a stroller across the street, my aunts beloved pitbull WHO NEVER showed any agression before bolted out the front door and ran herself across the street to attack and was struck and killed (thankfully) by a passing car before she reached the woman and her dog and child.... My aunt was devastated.... stupid damn dog got herself killed trying to go after another dog. :no:

I am not going to lie, but I chuckled to myself when I heard the news. I was glad that dog was gone.. knew it was just a matter of time before that dog did something like that.


Now, back to my right to shoot strays and protect my animals. Most of these dogs that come on our property are strays, I know for a fact that they have not been properly vaccinated against rabies, etc... they get into a tangle with a skunk, rabbit, possum, coyote who has rabies and then come onto my land and harm my animals or small children?? then what??? Sorry, I am not taking the chance.... they are going to be shot and killed before anything can happen like that and I have no qualms about it....

[Blinkers On]

ABSOLUTELY PERFECT!!! Regardless of the breed of dog, it is ULTIMATELY the RESPONSIBILITY of the HUMAN owner.

Amen to that!

Funny today I took my pit for a little bike ride to let her blow off some steam and a yellow lab and a small mixed breed were running loose in my neighborhood and guess which dogs were the "problem" dogs. Yep, not the pitbull. Who is on a leash and jogging happily beside my bike, but both of the dogs were aggressive in her direction. Both running at us as we plodded by. Her reaction is a wagging tail. oooh, scary!

[Blinkers On]

whoever asked about what breeds I have shot on my property... I don't know, I really don't make notes or keep track... to be honest, most are mutts probably, tagless. we have a problem out here with people dropping off and dumping dogs all the time, they sometimes start running in packs and thats where the real problem starts.

Unless you depend on some of your livestock for income, you will never understand needing to protect them and keep from losing any. It hurts the bottom line, so don't judge. I dont go out looking to kill dogs for sport.... If my animals are threatened or attacked, I will shoot first, ask questions later... Most everyone around us subscribes to the same theory. Its just the way it is. My dogs are locked up secure and will not harm livestock, they are bred to protect. IF and IF they wandered off and got capped, I already said I would only be able to blame myself.

I asked. And I do get looking after the stock that is your livelihood. But more my point is you loathe and despise pits and yet you have had numerous issues with "mutts" and though a pit is going to be shot without question (whether it is a pit or just falls into the vague description of one) and yet the "mutt's ...what became of them? Were they also executed for their sins? or did they get a pass because they are mutts or nondescript breeds. One can't breathe hatred and venom for a specific breed, and not have the same actions for others. That is purely hypocritical.
And hating Pits and owning dogs that are purely bred to protect??? You are such a contradiction in terms.
Pits are not created to be human aggressive. And those of us who own them do exactly what you do. Look after our dogs, ensure that they are contained, educated, and socialized. You won't find someone here on this thread that won't agree with taking responsibility for their dogs and as such I know I personally and multitudes of others go to great lengths to ensure that our dogs have a complete education and home structure so that they can be productive dogs in society.
And what would your bred to protect dogs do if the by some freakish accident were wandering around the countryside? It's not just pits that fall into BSL or into the hating surrounding "aggressive breeds."

[Ambrey]

I don't understand these areas that have all these packs of dogs roaming loose. Goodness! I do not care what breed of dog it is, any off the leash dogs out wilding in a pack need to be caught and contained by local officials and the owners need to pay heavy fines. If the owners are unwilliing to do this or if the authorities can not locate the owners, these dogs must be put down, end of story.


Yes, and gang members should all just be arrested and put in jail, and we'll never have graffiti again once the police start just putting all those bad kids away!

We live in a city of several million people, there are not just wandering AC officers to keep every dog under control.

And your little link fest is really pointless- the singular of "data" is not "anecdote."

[bort84]

My aunt, of all people owned a pitbull, she bought from one of these so called "reputable" breeder, passed a in home inspection (from the breeder), the whole nine yards.... Dog was supposed to be well bred, etc... she paid a pretty penny for that dog too. well, long story short.... She lives in a very populated neighborhood in the city.... She was coming in the front door, a neighbor was out walking her dog and pushing her small child in a stroller across the street, my aunts beloved pitbull WHO NEVER showed any agression before bolted out the front door and ran herself across the street to attack and was struck and killed (thankfully) by a passing car before she reached the woman and her dog and child.... My aunt was devastated.... stupid damn dog got herself killed trying to go after another dog. :no:

I am not going to lie, but I chuckled to myself when I heard the news. I was glad that dog was gone.. knew it was just a matter of time before that dog did something like that.

Wowie. Had the dog ever given you reason to suspect it? Maybe it did, that would make your comment a little less disturbing. Also, are you certain the dog was running across the attack another dog? I don't know, some dogs are pretty bad about running off.

Anyway, just had to comment on your polite comment about laughing that your aunt's dog got killed. Yikes! I just don't understand how people get in such a blind rage about things like this... I'm open to listen to both sides of the argument if they're presented intelligently. Unfortunately, nothing intelligent has been stated in any of your posts in regards to this discussion about pit bulls, just blind hate. Bleh. Since you're obviously not popping in on this discussion to seek enlightenment, perhaps you should pop out for a bit?

[Huntertwo]

Okay.

http://dogsinthenews.com/stories/070301a.php

Damn, wish we pointlessly put down their Pit Bull, so these 2 people would be dead.

What a sad story.... :cry:

[VAHorseGurl]

My aunt, of all people owned a pitbull, she bought from one of these so called "reputable" breeder, passed a in home inspection (from the breeder), the whole nine yards.... Dog was supposed to be well bred, etc... she paid a pretty penny for that dog too. well, long story short.... She lives in a very populated neighborhood in the city.... She was coming in the front door, a neighbor was out walking her dog and pushing her small child in a stroller across the street, my aunts beloved pitbull WHO NEVER showed any agression before bolted out the front door and ran herself across the street to attack and was struck and killed (thankfully) by a passing car before she reached the woman and her dog and child.... My aunt was devastated.... stupid damn dog got herself killed trying to go after another dog. :no:

I am not going to lie, but I chuckled to myself when I heard the news. I was glad that dog was gone.. knew it was just a matter of time before that dog did something like that.


Now, back to my right to shoot strays and protect my animals. Most of these dogs that come on our property are strays, I know for a fact that they have not been properly vaccinated against rabies, etc... they get into a tangle with a skunk, rabbit, possum, coyote who has rabies and then come onto my land and harm my animals or small children?? then what??? Sorry, I am not taking the chance.... they are going to be shot and killed before anything can happen like that and I have no qualms about it....

You know this how? Oh wait, you are a mind reader (not to mention heartless) and all knowning, that has to be it. LMAO


As for your poor aunts dog, proper training regardless of 'breeding' standards rules out behavior such as disobedience. And proper training is a 24/7 a week thing, not just an 8wk course purchased at your local PetsMart or Petco.

And yes, you have a right to your opinion, as do I, but to think your opinion holds no weight what so ever when someone is surfing the net to gain support for a bill they plan to propose is silly. Those with such outspoken views on this breed attrack the attention of those working hard to ban this breed and remove my Rights as an American. Don't be silly enough to think it doesn't.

[MistyBlue]

Mistyblue - your state permits hunting with dogs, too. Working dogs are usually exempt from leash laws WHEN working. When not working or in training, any leash laws apply. In this state, a hunter is required to retrieve his dog or it is deemed running at large.
Yup, we allow hunting dogs to hunt off leash. :) As we should IMO...as long as they're well trained hunting dogs. And so far in my lifetime in this state I've yet to come across a bad one. We have mostly bird dogs...so rarely more than one to three out at a time. But we also have a healthy population of hunting dog trials...I love seeing trucks with crates parked in a field because I'll stop and watch them run/trial their dogs. :yes:
What we have different is allowing trespass by dog hunters. But then since we don't run packs or free hunt dogs it wouldn't be needed anyways. Bird dogs don't generally run off...hard for the hunter to see them point, LOL!

And hating Pits and owning dogs that are purely bred to protect??? You are such a contradiction in terms.

Guard dogs are a world of difference from fighting dogs. Pits are bred to fight other dogs, to have dog aggression. Guard dogs aren't. And there's also a difference in guard dogs and "attack" dogs. There are specifically bred and trained dogs for going after people, grabbing and holding them. Guard dogs are bred and trained to "hold" a person without touching them. My GSD is trained to do that...it's a game to him since he adores people. On command he'll approach barking and make sure the person doesn't leave a certain spot or progress past a certain spot. Mixes his urge to herd and his loves of games. Once the person stands still and stays quiet, Chase sits and stops barking. What the "bad guy" doesn't know is that Chase is waiting for pats and "good boy" from them. As soon as I "release" him from the game he runs right for his ball, brings it back to the person and drops it at their feet waiting for them to throw it. His job is to guard the property and the people...not attack anyone ever.
If my guard dog ever got loose? He doesn't leave the yard. Even if there's a cat, deer, turkeys, other roaming dogs, whatever off property he won't pass a certain line without a release. Would he never ever? You can never say never with any animal. But I have seen him slam on his brakes from a dead run chasing deer right on the property line I trained him to. He's not animal aggressive at all either...he chases animals to play with them. If the animal stops, he slams on his brakes and sometimes even runs full tilt back to me. (he can be a chicken sometimes, LOL)

[Blinkers On]

Misty, I politely disagree. Socialize, educate and pits are rather fun lap dogs whos tail and tongues are overly busy.
Which dogs are bred to protect? The Rottweiler, the Doberman, the shepherd. BSL can and does affect those breeds as well in some areas.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/06/german_shepherd_congo_involved.html
http://forums.doghobbyist.com/view.php?id=140702,140702
http://scottishterrierdogs.blogspot.com/2009/02/welsh-heros-save-scottie-from.html
http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/636/baby-killed-by-labrador-puppy-is-named/
http://www.standunited.ca/sourcesforreading/regardlessofbreed.html

It goes on and on and on. Breeds perceived by the public to be aggressive, protective, big, loyal etc all get lumped together at the end of the day.
ANY dog can be animal aggressive without socialization and education. Same goes for being human aggressive. We can create any kind of dog we want through education an the lack of education.
Pits are police dogs, Border patrol, narcotics dogs, cadaver dogs, used by bomb squads, in the military (Sargent Stumpy!!!), Helen Keller had a pit, The little Rascals had a pit, they are therapy dogs, the things that one can teach this breed is pretty much unlimited.
In every breed that is thought of as harmful to the public, animal, etc there is always a common weak link. The human that should have been at the end of the leash..
Ignorance breeds fear.

[bort84]

Ignorance breeds fear.

So true. Someone mentioned earlier that they think part of the problem is the way people act around Pit Bulls or dogs they assume are dangerous. Cesar Millan at least has that "energy" thing right despite what some people think of his methods. If you start freaking out around a dog because you think, "OMG, it's a PIT BULL! It's going to EAT me!!!" Well, that dog is not likely to have a great response to you.

Because dogs are owned by SO many people, I think it would be really great if schools did doggie courses for little kids. Imagine if the public had to interact with horses on a daily basis, classes like that would certainly be necessary. And horses are prey animals not inclined to attack things but run instead.

I just think it could be very useful to spend a little more time educating the public on how to behave around dogs. SO many people have them, and I think most are just lucky to have a naturally quiet dog. I see so many uneducated people with obnoxious dogs that are on the way to becoming dangerous, and it's so frustrating. Those dogs then become somebody else's problem once little Pookie nips at little Cindy, and then little Pookie ends up at a shelter then getting euthed because stupid family couldn't teach Pookie manners and couldn't teach Cindy not to grab at Pookie's face while he's eating.

[Auventera Two]

My lord, did we forget the Michael Vick case already? Those were obviously "fighting dogs" yet I belive all but one were rehomed due to wonderful personalities. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Yep, there was an awesome article in Sports Illustrated documenting the case. There was only ONE dog who was so aggressive he had to be euthanized.

[Auventera Two]

Heck, let's just put all animals down that are a hazard to humans. I got bit by my mothers bunny when I was younger so they better go too..

The worst animal bite I ever received was from a show rabbit. ;) He managed to sever nerves and nick a tendon when he sank a mouthfull of teeth into my forearm. I was going to put him up on the table for judging and he just freaked and latched onto my arm. I still have the scar today - shaped like a half moon and I still have no feeling within about an inch all around the scar.

It was kind of funny when I was sitting in the emergency room while the ER doctor was trying to figure out what exactly bit me. I told him a rabbit. He said "A rabid WHAT?" I said, no a RABBIT. He was like "Ok, focus, WHAT was the rabid animal? Was it a dog, a cat, a raccoon?" :lol: LOL, No a little furry bunny that hops and eats carrots. A RABBIT?!?! A rabbit bit you?!?! Are you sure it was a rabbit?!? Hahaa. Yes, I'm sure. We were all laughing. He didn't speak english that great anyway and he said he had never seen a rabbit bite before.

[bort84]

OH! I used to have this AWFUL little rabbit that a training customer had given me. She was like, well, just take her for a couple of weeks, and you can give her back if it doesn't work out. This little rabbit was gorgeous. Certainly show quality. What an awful little pet!

The customer had given another guy at the barn this great little black rabbit (apparently not show quality though). He was the sweetest, cutest little thing you could ever have had. But mine! Oh my, she would scratch and bite if you tried to do anything with her. I'm sure she would have come around, but I wasn't really interested. So she went back home, haha.

[MistyBlue]

Misty, I politely disagree. Socialize, educate and pits are rather fun lap dogs whos tail and tongues over to be busy.

Yes, they are. No argument from me on that. But the facts remain that *far* too many owners aren't the correct owners for that breed, thus the fact that they are the #1 dog for serious attacks and injuries. That's not a media fallacy, it's the truth. It doesn't matter what the breed is...but if that specific breed is causing by far the most damage then it can get to a point where someone has to step in and say, "Okay, time to try controlling this."
I don't have an issue with BSL in many forms...I *am* licensed for risk animals and wildlife. And almost every dog I've ever owned was considered a high risk breed. Because I got them from being seized. So license those who want a high risk breed...not saying it has to be only pits. It can be any of the breeds/types with a higher than average attack problem. GSDs, Rottie, whatever.
The pounds and shelters wouldn't be packed to the ceiling with certain breeds if it weren't for the fact that a ridiculous amount of people aren't caring for them properly. The same breeds seen most in shelters and pounds also happen to be the ones causing the most problems. It's not coincidence.
A good pit (or whatever) owner shouldn't mind being licensed for that dog. So if the BSL goes for special licensing/permit to own or breed those breeds, what's the issue? It won't affect the good owners because they'll pass the permit process and get to keep their dogs or get additional ones. The people who shouldn't have them would be more easily weeded out. I don't see how that's an issue.

[Auventera Two]

FWIW - this was on today's Houston Chronicle's front page: article:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6363585.html

Who in the frick lets their 18 month old baby "toddle" into the neighbor's yard anyway?!? Good lord. Whoever was watching (NOT watching!) that kid is the one responsible.

If I let my 18 month old toddle out into the highway and get creamed by a mail man, is it the mail man's fault, or mine?

Seriously people, get a grip.

The problem with these stupid news reports is that you never get the full story. Reporters have a duty to create drama and shock and awe for ratings and sales. They always make it out to sound like the Pits were just beloved family pets that licked milk off the kid's face every day and then turned around and ripped their throat out. You NEVER hear the whole story.

I remember one that when it was finally all hashed out, the dogs were an INTACT male, and INTACT female. The female was in heat. The family had been keeping the Pits locked in the basement. Then the dogs get loose and kill a kid. THINK ABOUT IT. That is not responsible down ownership on any level.

If Suzie Q let her 2 year old kid loose in a paddock with a breding stallion and a mare in heat, and that kid gets killed, who would be at fault then? Would we all be screaming to ban that breed of horse? Doubtful.

[JSwan]

Wasn't criticizing you - just explaining, and it's not a dog trespass law. Your state permits free casting, and chances are they wander onto private property too. Plenty of states have these laws - and not all of them involve hunting. This one is worded oddly I grant you. It's old timey. But - the AG has been pretty specific about what crime a hunter commits by NOT retrieving an errant dog. Any type of hunting dog. Been a bit of hollering about it - mostly by Free Staters. Yes, we have them here too.

Personally, I'm more concerned about loose pets. Free ranging dogs are a real PITA for rural dwellers. The worst offenders are urbanites who move out to the country and let their dogs and kids run around like they own the place. Kids trespassing, dogs chasing livestock... it's a darn mess.

Oh - bird dogs trespass too. If in doubt just ask any waterfowler (around here) if a McMansion owner has screamed at him about owning everything to the middle of the waterway, or yelled about high water marks. Honestly... it's starting to get ridiculous.



Yup, we allow hunting dogs to hunt off leash. :) As we should IMO...as long as they're well trained hunting dogs. And so far in my lifetime in this state I've yet to come across a bad one.

[Sansena]

And I've read enough sanctimonious crap on this thread to exercise my 'ignore' button at least once.. again.

Honestly, I've met vicious dogs of many breeds.
The most vicious was a Golden Retriever.
I don't hold it against any specific breed, per se.
...Incidentally, I own a Chow, and see the fear in ignorant people's eyes all the time.

Prejudice will do that.

The nickname of the JackRussell 'Terrorist' has never been applied to a Pit IIRCC...

[bort84]

A good pit (or whatever) owner shouldn't mind being licensed for that dog. So if the BSL goes for special licensing/permit to own or breed those breeds, what's the issue? It won't affect the good owners because they'll pass the permit process and get to keep their dogs or get additional ones. The people who shouldn't have them would be more easily weeded out. I don't see how that's an issue.

Yeah, I don't think many people think that's an issue. In fact, I think most of the pit people on here have said they would push for it, if only because it would help their breed in the long run. What's an issue to me is counties outlawing certain types of breeds. It's ridiculous, and there have been a few places repeal those outlaws because they've found them to be completely ineffective in reducing the targeted behavior.

[ayrabz]

why can't we just realize Pit Bulls ARE in the news, ARE often destructive and dangerous dogs. No one is making this up. The facts are there, and the stories are reported and documented.
Of COURSE there are good pit bulls, and good pit bull owners. No matter anyones stance on this, IF a pit bull has a BAD owner, things can go badly very quickly. THAT has to do with a breed. Many breeds have BAD owners, and very few sustain this history and this REPEATED horrific scenarios SPECIFIC to a breed.
Whats the rocket science here? Why the bruhaha?

[Ambrey]

why can't we just realize Pit Bulls ARE in the news, ARE often destructive and dangerous dogs. No one is making this up. The facts are there, and the stories are reported and documented.

No kidding. "Properly socialized" doesn't make up for several generations of breeding for aggression.

At least the point I was making earlier to VA and others about how so many pit owners seem oblivious to the fact that there are dangerous pits being bred has been proven.

[bort84]

why can't we just realize Pit Bulls ARE in the news, ARE often destructive and dangerous dogs. No one is making this up. The facts are there, and the stories are reported and documented.
Of COURSE there are good pit bulls, and good pit bull owners. No matter anyones stance on this, IF a pit bull has a BAD owner, things can go badly very quickly. THAT has to do with a breed. Many breeds have BAD owners, and very few sustain this history and this REPEATED horrific scenarios SPECIFIC to a breed.
Whats the rocket science here? Why the bruhaha?

Though your post is a smidge incendiary, I don't think that many people on here are disagreeing. Most owners realize pit bulls are dogs that require more responsibility and dog handling skills. So what's the rocket science there?

Still, there are a LOT of good pit bulls out there despite what has been done to them in the past, so most pit owners get upset when someone comes out and says "ALL PIT BULLS ARE BAD! THEY SHOULD BE ILLEGAL!" Etc...

Is it really that hard to understand why a responsible owner of a pit bull that is a good citizen would want to stand up for the breed so that the public's hysteria doesn't lead to a ban on ownership? MANY pit bull owners (the responsible ones that should actually be allowed to have dogs) I have met understand the responsibility that goes along with owning a more dangerous breed. Many pit owners on this board have said they would be very happy to see some regulations put in place on the ownership of this breed. Most responsible pit bull owners are very upset that there are many idiots breeding and buying pit bulls for ALL the wrong reasons. These owners want to see something done so the good characteristics of the breed are allowed to continue.

There's not all that much bruhaha at this point in the thread (except for people getting riled up after CAT's posts, which isn't hard to understand).

Once again, how do you expect people to respond when someone spouts off that all pit bulls are bad and a good one is the exception to the rule? That's just ignorance. It's like when people tell me all saddlebreds are crazy and abused. Most of those people have only seen saddlebreds from afar at a show...

Obviously there are more reported cases of unfortunate incidents involving pit bulls. Certainly a bit of that is that the media reports pit bull attacks more often and that some dogs are mistakenly identified as pit bulls. However, I wouldn't say most people think that is the only reason the statistic is so skewed - obviously the breed requires more care.

It would be interesting if there were some sort of way to breakdown which pits responsible for the really nasty attacks were owned by the jerks that mistreat them to make them "guard" dogs or fighting dogs. I really think that a LOT of these people that own pit bulls because they look tough and mistreat them to make them mean are people that wouldn't consider another type of dog and wouldn't treat a non "tough" looking dog this way. I have no idea how a husky or a lab would behave under this type of treatment. Now, this isn't to say that all pit bulls that have attacked have been treated this way, but it's something to think about.

Obviously pit bulls as a breed require a LOT of responsibility from owners, it just gets frustrating to hear people write off the whole breed. It's silly. It makes people that are more educated and open minded about the situation want to share their views. Not really that hard to understand...

[Ambrey]

Though your post is a smidge incendiary, I don't think that many people on here are disagreeing. Most owners realize pit bulls are dogs that require more responsibility and dog handling skills. So what's the rocket science there?

I think that most of the posters in the first part of the thread seemed to be pretty reasonable, but the posters on the latter half seem to be not agreeing that pits have any unique characteristics that make them possibly dangerous in the wrong hands.

[bort84]

I think that most of the posters in the first part of the thread seemed to be pretty reasonable, but the posters on the latter half seem to be not agreeing that pits have any unique characteristics that make them possibly dangerous in the wrong hands.

I don't know that I would completely agree with that. I think, more than anything, they are trying to show that pit bulls aren't the only dogs out there being bad - just to prove that owners really are usually the problem. I think most of the people that have spoken about not all attacks being done by pits and how they are often GREAT dogs have also generally said that they realize these dogs REQUIRE good handling skills.

So the owners are telling stories about good pits and showing that other breeds of dogs can be bad too. Well, the people against pits (PAPs?) are telling stories about how pits are bad and other dogs are good. Standard procedure.

Anyway, though there have been some posts from pit lovers saying that a lot of the problems are handler problems, I would say the majority of them have also piped in to say that they would be GLAD if there were registration requirements or some sort of licensing requirements. It keeps good dogs out of the hands of bad people.

I think the pit owners tend to fly off the handle after the PAPs (that's a funny acronym to me, haha) make some ridiculous statement. Granted, there have been a few ridiculous statement on the part of the pit owners. But I think the majority of the incendiary posts have come from the PAPs - then the pit owners respond in kind, as is to be expected on this board, haha = )

Anyway. All pits aren't bad (I'd say most even are good). They need to be owned by people with experience - perhaps regulation and licensing could help with that, but bans don't help the situation and only serve to keep good owners from having dogs they love. What's there to argue with about that?

[Ambrey]

I don't know that I would completely agree with that. I think, more than anything, they are trying to show that pit bulls aren't the only dogs out there being bad - just to prove that owners really are usually the problem.

Saying the owners are the problem is not the same as admitting that many pits are problem dogs that need a special kind of owner, and that beyond that there are many who aren't really safe for any owner.

[shanky]

Saying the owners are the problem is not the same as admitting that many pits are problem dogs that need a special kind of owner, and that beyond that there are many who aren't really safe for any owner.


LAWLESSNESS!! (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10652469/)

[bort84]

Saying the owners are the problem is not the same as admitting that many pits are problem dogs that need a special kind of owner, and that beyond that there are many who aren't really safe for any owner.

Meh, I wouldn't say there are many that aren't safe for any owner. I also wouldn't say most pits are problem dogs - sort of like one of my horsie favorites - there are no problem horses, only problem riders - but they do often require someone who knows more about dogs. That doesn't mean the breed should be banned. Neither should rotties or GSDs etc, and I put them in a similar category.

I know a lot of people follow the fugly horse of the day blog. Well, she always says a lot of gaited breeds seem to end up with the worst owners because they are tolerant and easy to ride. I think pits end up with a lot of the worst owners because they are "tough" dogs. Remove those people from the equation for 5 years, and I bet pits would once again be consistently great dogs for the majority of handlers.

Anyway, I would disagree with you because I think many people have posted that pits often require more knowledgeable handlers, especially in the case of a rescue. Many pits become bad because of bad owners and then require experienced owners. That's admitting the dogs are sometimes more difficult.

Again, there are certainly pit owners out there that feel they're an easy breed for everyone, but not very many knowledgeable animal/dog people will say that.

[grayarabs]

The pit owners on this board are obviously responsible with their dogs and love the breed.
I have two dogs - a GSDmix and a border collie/ACD mix - the former is stable - the latter is unstable - both rescues. The BC/ACD we found at three weeks of age. I had never had a difficult dog, but soon realized the BC/ACD mix had some issues - starting with resource guarding. I hired a doggie behaviorist. I read and watched tapes of Donaldson, Rugas, etc - watched C.Milan - developing a good understanding of energy etc. But still - when out walking my dogs - if I come across a loose dog or two - or see a breed out that I think could be a problem - I don't have it in me to "be cool" about the situation.
The pits around here are mostly confined to their backyards - not walked - which must be frustrating for them. But, this is what I see/feel when out walking one of my dogs and see someone heading my way walking their PB. Usually it is a large confident man - afraid of nothing. The dog exudes confidence. They both know they are powerful and could take on all comers. So I am out walking with one of my dogs - thinking "isn't that a cute poodle", or "what a lovely collie" - then "s**t - there is a PB". If it is far away I can be cool but turn the other way. If it is close - then I tense up - and think - how do I get out of this mess. I am not concerned about myself - I am concerned about my dog. One of my favorite places to walk - a local retention pond - I invariably run into a guy that arrives and turns his PB loose. Do I chance it - or get in the truck and go home? I load up and go home. I guess I am a wimp. Around here I don't think the PB owners are lovers of the breed - just lovers of the image. As in: http://www.realpitbulls.net
Advertised as "muscular, big-headed and huge-chested" - to be admired when out on walks, etc. Curious - the dog walkers here - with PB's or other breeds - how often do you run into PB's and what do you think/do?

[Blinkers On]

Yes, they are. No argument from me on that. But the facts remain that *far* too many owners aren't the correct owners for that breed, thus the fact that they are the #1 dog for serious attacks and injuries. That's not a media fallacy, it's the truth. It doesn't matter what the breed is...but if that specific breed is causing by far the most damage then it can get to a point where someone has to step in and say, "Okay, time to try controlling this."
I don't have an issue with BSL in many forms...I *am* licensed for risk animals and wildlife. And almost every dog I've ever owned was considered a high risk breed. Because I got them from being seized. So license those who want a high risk breed...not saying it has to be only pits. It can be any of the breeds/types with a higher than average attack problem. GSDs, Rottie, whatever.
The pounds and shelters wouldn't be packed to the ceiling with certain breeds if it weren't for the fact that a ridiculous amount of people aren't caring for them properly. The same breeds seen most in shelters and pounds also happen to be the ones causing the most problems. It's not coincidence.
A good pit (or whatever) owner shouldn't mind being licensed for that dog. So if the BSL goes for special licensing/permit to own or breed those breeds, what's the issue? It won't affect the good owners because they'll pass the permit process and get to keep their dogs or get additional ones. The people who shouldn't have them would be more easily weeded out. I don't see how that's an issue.


I can agree with that. Though I'd have to say that many dog owners ought not to be dog owners. Small dogs included. With my neighbor's two midgets included. One of them is terribly aggressive, I'd rather be on my side of the fence!
The bad pit owners disgust me because their bad deeds are creating so much fear of really genuinely loving dogs. And yes, loving of animals too with education and leadership. I think that is where I get so frustrated with the whole "pits are evil and a waste of life" argument. People who are irresponsible and want these dogs to help out their tough guy image should not own these dogs. People with experience, a fence or enclosure capable of keeping the dogs confined when not supervised, with time to spend raising a dog right should be allowed to own these dogs. They are a wonderful addition to the right home.

[Brave2Xrails]

Curious - the dog walkers here - with PB's or other breeds - how often do you run into PB's and what do you think/do?

It's funny, because, although I am a lover of the pit breeds, I have still felt occasional twinges of "breed prejudice". When I would be walking my AmStaff and I would see another pit type dog, if it was dressed in one of those studded collars or the owner was some muscle guy who was strutting along with his dog in one of those spikey training collars - I don't know, anything that gave me a "macho vibe", I would not let my dog get near them. Most times, the owner would start bringing his dog near me and start asking questions about my dog and I would make some excuse (okay, a LIE) and say something like my dog wasn't well socialized or something so they wouldn't get close b/c I didn't trust THEIR dog.

As far as how people viewed my dog - most people were friendly and would approach us but they did usually ask, "Does he bite?" But I think that is a normal and appropriate question to ask when wanting to interact with any unfamiliar dog.

Lots of folks have been talking about dogs running around in neighborhoods off leash. I honestly wouldn't want ANY free roaming dog approaching any of my animals b/c, no matter what the breed, any unfamiliar dog MIGHT become aggressive...you have no way of knowing if you don't know the dog. Now, an unfamiliar pit breed running free in the neighborhood? I certainly wouldn't be happy about that - it would be a pretty clear indicator to me that the owner was irresponsible and didn't really give a shit what his dog was up to. Not the type of owner you want for any strong dog who tends to be dominant when not properly socialized.

[Blinkers On]

I think that most of the posters in the first part of the thread seemed to be pretty reasonable, but the posters on the latter half seem to be not agreeing that pits have any unique characteristics that make them possibly dangerous in the wrong hands.

Ambrey, ANY dog is intrinsically a predator, and without proper socialization, education and "pack" order, ANY breed of dog can become a problem. From toy breeds on up. Please pay attention.
As others have said my pit is a pound pup of surely less than stellar breeding. I didn't get lucky, I got a dog. A dog that is currently warming my feet. A dog that doesn't push limits, a dog that is a little stubborn (kind of like me), a dog that has adapted to more adversity in her short life than most would handle well. She adapts to ALL situations with grace and kindness and has nothing but enthusiasm for the world around her. Top of her obedience class till physical issues removed us from the class. She rarely barks, she growls when she is concerned. I have left her alone with my nieces who were lavished with kisses (I was spying) while she was on "stall rest."
She is a dog when at the summer retreat in San Diego alone with my dogs, if she heard something she didn't like would sit over me as I slept and would wake me. Once I was awake would growl quietly until she thought I was safe. Not growling threateningly, but warning me that she was concerned. She will not leave my side.
ALL OF THE ABOVE ARE GOOD QUALITIES. And it would take a blessed lot to convince me that the breed is bad, because where I am sitting, it's the best breed I have ever owned or been closely a part of.

[Ambrey]

Ambrey, ANY dog is intrinsically a predator, and without proper socialization, education and "pack" order, ANY breed of dog can become a problem. From toy breeds on up. Please pay attention.

I am paying attention. I believe you are completely mistaken if you believe that the genetic predisposition of pit bulls to aggression is not part of the issue.

Go through any breed listing- it will list personality traits of the breed. Temperament in dogs, as in horses, is partially genetic. When you have people breeding for a violent dog, you get a violent dog... and that's exactly what is happening in the case of the pit.

I hope you continue to get lucky and your own experiences continue to bear out your beliefs.

[Brave2Xrails]

Go through any breed listing- it will list personality traits of the breed. Temperament in dogs, as in horses, is partially genetic. When you have people breeding for a violent dog, you get a violent dog... and that's exactly what is happening in the case of the pit.
.

These dogs just can't catch a freakin' break with you. Irresponsible people are selecting and breeding for undesirable traits. These traits can be found in MOST DOGS but certain morons are going out of their way to breed for it in these dogs. Violent and unpredictable dogs are not part of the breed standard! Anybody can pick a bad quality that occasionally rears its head in the gene pool and select for it. I feel horrible for anybody who was ever harmed by a bully breed but I also feel a great deal of sympathy for the dogs themselves. These dangerous, mistreated dogs are not what the breed is about. It is everyone's misfortune that folks are allowed to mistreat animals in this manner but please stop grouping every bully breed dog in with dogs who were bred for aggression.


The following quote is not from any pro pit website but is from the online Encyclopedia Britannica:

In the United States, the American Staffordshire terrier was bred for a stable temperament and adapted for hunting vermin and game and for farm work, taking advantage of the breed’s strength and courage. Over time, larger dogs became the norm. American Staffordshire terriers reached a peak of popularity in the first half of the 20th century; “Pete the Pup” appeared in the Our Gang comedies, and the breed personified the all-American pet. It is affectionate and loyal and is good with children, making it an outstanding family pet.

[Blinkers On]

That's actually something that interests me about the breed Ambrey. The supposed predisposition to violent behaviour. I did do extensive research into the breed prior to bringing one home. Pitts that end up in shelters aren't at the top of the well bred list generally.
The genetic predisposition of the Pitt is actually rather kind. Believe me I watched a load of dog fight crap and saw so many dogs in their owners hands scrambling to get away from a fight, and when engaged with no other out, an emaciated dog fights for it's life. The only option available. Who is at fault? It's not the dog. I have a tough stomach for alot (not always a blessing) but watching dogs who really don't want any part of what is being asked of them turned my stomach. And knowing that the loosing dog will die.. awful. BUT show me a "good" pitt that is "well bred" The losers die, the winners live and the exceptional procreate. THAT is what is snoring as she warms my feet. AND YET she is as kind as the day is long. They are fiercely loyal. That is their only fault. If that is a fault at all.
I DID the research. I was not blinded by media hysteria like so many. And I am so glad I did and have the best dog I could have asked for!

[Ambrey]

That's actually something that interests me about the breed Ambrey. The supposed predisposition to violent behaviour. I did do extensive research into the breed prior to bringing one home. Pitts that end up in shelters aren't at the top of the well bred list generally.

Sigh. That's exactly the point. People are breeding them for aggression and THOSE are the dogs that are ending up in shelters.

They are being bred for violence by people who like and enjoy voilence. Yes, those are bad people. Yes, I blame the people. No, I don't think their violence rubs off on the nice pits of the world.

But those are what is out there, and if people are looking at pits in the shelters and thinking that the dogs they see have the temperaments described in the pit literature they could be in for a rude awakening.

[shanky]

“Pete the Pup” appeared in the Our Gang comedies, and the breed personified the all-American pet. It is affectionate and loyal and is good with children, making it an outstanding family pet.

I actually believe that Pete the Pup was implicated in the death of Carl "Alfalfa" Switzer.

[Blinkers On]

Oye.. sigh.. good God... Ambrey. You really have no idea, do you. You speak english and yet the point floats blissfully out of your grasp. The point is that the dogs you assume are being bred for malicious intent are residing in homes as kind and loving dogs.
I challenge you to watch real footage of dog fights and tell me how many dogs want to fight for their lives. F*cking few if any. I watched it ad nauseum.
If you don't believe that the violent tendencies and likes rubs off on dogs, you are right, but the need to survive is real for dogs, cats, horses, humans. They all do what they need to to live. You and I are no different. If pressed to fight or shoot someone to continue living would you not? I would, without question. Survival of the fittest, it is not just for one breed of dog.
And the Vick dogs are case in point. Bred to survive dogs, saved and thankful and re homed successfully.
Fighting dogs.. no winning fighting dogs re homed into society. Yep, they sure are killers.
Have you ever met a Greyhound rescued off track? You will rarely meet a dog more grateful to be saved. The Vick Pitts are the same. Those too were fighting (running) for their lives and know it when they are in a place of love and their lives are not threatened.
I would fight for my life too, as would you.

[Ambrey]

Oye.. sigh.. good God... Ambrey. You really have no idea, do you. You speak english and yet the point floats blissfully out of your grasp. The point is that the dogs you assume are being bred for malicious intent are residing in homes as kind and loving dogs.

Just because I discard a point as invalid does not mean I didn't understand it.

[Blinkers On]

And yet oblivious to what is reality.

[Ambrey]

And yet oblivious to what is reality.

You know, not to bring in the subject of another thread, but my son had an entire section in his 3rd grade curriculum on discriminating "fact" from "opinion." Seems like a lot of people should have studied harder on those days :yes:

[Blinkers On]

Yes, I struggle with English as a first language.. and confuse fact from fiction regularly ... what is your problem?
Interestingly when people have no other recourse, they love to offhandedly insult other's intelligence or comprehension. Bless you Ambrey for following suit to the mindless and argumentless before you.
You ARE valuing your tainted by media "opinion" over many very well spoken people who actually have first hand knowledge of the breed. Yay (doggie) racist
Let me think, who IS more relevant... media hysteria vs real life.. hmmm that is a tough one! :eek::no: Britney Spears melt down vs Jessica Simpson's weight gain? Hmmm which way does the media go??? Which is relevant. Is Britney teatering on the brink of mental instability? OR Is Jessica a porker or just healthy and eating like a human not in the lime light?
Media is so damaging and so bias. They do it in humans. What would hold them back from doing it to animals? It's only a small needle for animals.....

[Walk_N_Gal88]

I love the Dog Whisperer too, but the truth is that he has the red zonew dogs for a reason - they don't go back to the owners in most cases.

I am not, but if I were neighbors of these dogs, they would be finding some delicious warfarin in their pens.

So you're saying that you would take it upon yourself to poison another person's dogs? Not in self-defense or even defense of another person or animal, but sneakily, for retaliation? Nice to know someone can come up in my yard whenever they feel like it and slip my dog some poison because they felt she was dangerous.

Who said anything about the Dog Whisperer?

BTW, for everyone else, Warfarin is an anticoagulant drug also used as a rodentcide.

[Moderator 1]

No longer horse-related.