Co-Dependency; and a poll

[altering2]

Not sure if "co-denpendency" is the correct term for this...but I feel like I'm absolutely dependent on my trainer (both for lessons and for training rides on my horse). When we're on a full (and very $$$) training program, my horse and I go wonderfully...but we seem to always go downhill within a week or so without my trainer (mostly when she's out of town). I've been in full training (trainer rides 4-6x a week, I take 2 lessons a week) for a year now, and feel it's time I become a bit more independent when it comes to riding.

Ideally, I'd like to reach a point when I no longer need trainer to ride my horse for him to stay "tuned up". I need to slowly wean myself from this, though it's difficult since trainer really has a way with my horse...every time she rides, horse is literally perfect for the next couple days (soft, supple, relaxed, etc...)....not so after I ride during the days when trainer is out of town :cry: I guess to gain my next level of independence, I'll have to accept that our (horse and myself) progress will slow and may even get worse...

I am curious though...how many of you have your horse on a program with your trainer, or otherwise need your trainer to ride horse for your equine partnership to continue to be succesful? (please answer poll)

Aside: I know that riding ability and experience have a lot to do with this...and I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage here. I'm relatively new to eventing, only been "involved" for a little over 2 years, and only at the BN/N level. But I'm beginning to think that if my horse and I are unable to work well together with 2-3 lessons/week (no training rides), that maybe I'm just not good enough to work with him :cry: At this point, I'm really not willing to think about selling him though...he's super talented and could easily be successful at the upper levels...if only my riding were better :(

[Hony]

There was no option on the poll that fit my situation which I think is the same for many people. I lesson once a week. Every so often my coach will hop on my horse to help me sort something out. For instance, a few weeks ago I was having trouble picking up right lead canter on a left circle. This was something new for my horse and me so my aids were out of whack. My coach got on, helped my horse through it, showed me what he was doing and then I got back on to do it.
I will never expect to be able to do everything without a coach. Even top level riders need coaching. We're never finished learning.

[flyingchange]

Wow, your trainer has you right where s/he wants you. Consciously or sub-consciously. This is the model that the Hunters have used for years. Rider must have show horse at trainers barn in order to be competitive. Trainer must ride horse for horse to be OK. Rider must take at least weekly lessons or the sky will start to fall down and everything will fall apart. Horse will turn into a pumpkin and all that.

If you feel the need to move beyond the confines of the training board barn you are in, then do it. It seems like you accept that things might not go "perfectly" - but that's part of the experience. The downs are where we learn the most. If we don't allow ourselves to experience them, then what are we? Pretty much just passengers on a ship - and the trainer is at the helm. This situation is perfect for some people. They want it and that's fine. But if you want to be in control of your horse and your riding, which is a big part of your life in general, then there is nothing wrong with going out on a limb and weening yourself off your dependence on your trainer.

Depending on the trainer, s/he might or might not be OK with this decision! But that's another discussion.

Oh, and the whole issue of the horse being talented and could do the upper levels but for it's rider, etc - really that is such poisonous thinking. Your horse is perfectly happy to be doing the LL with you. They.Don't.Care. what level they are doing as long as the level and workload is fair to them.

Edited to add: I trailer to bi-weekly lessons and the trainer never gets on my horse. For better or worse!

[Eventer13]

While I do think it is important to get lessons, both for your and your horse's training, I also think trainer-dependency is not a good thing. I think the *average* student should be able to function at least a week between lessons, hopefully applying what they learned and improving on it. Of course, no horse and rider need the same program, and maybe you and your mount need more regular tune-ups. If things completely fall apart if the trainer is not there, however, I would wonder why your riding suffers when you are alone. Are you just not understanding what she tells you in lessons? Maybe she isn't explaining all the theory behind it? Do you get nervous? Do you need to be told every.single.step to be able to ride this horse?

Also, and I really hate to say this, but I don't think a BN/N rider should be holding onto a talented upper-level horse if she feels like she isn't learning and actively improving while riding him. Actually, that goes for all levels of riders ;) If I were in your place, I would sell the horse and get something a little easier. Doesn't have to be a packer, but do you really want to risk your confidence riding something that difficult/green? You sound a little defeated in your post. He may be uber talented, but maybe you could lease him for a year or two, try riding something with a bit more mileage, and then re-try him again? This is supposed to be fun, not stressful.

Also, I just have to ask, but did you come from h/j land? I think it will be hard to find many eventers who are on such a trainer-dependent program (i.e. all the training rides). You do see more of the do-it-yourself types over here.

If you do feel comfortable with this horse, maybe you could just try dropping the training rides and see what happens? Sure, your progress might be slow for a while, but that might be what you need to learn to be a more independent rider. And I might also try getting more feedback from your trainer after a ride- what do you want me to work on between lessons? Make sure you understand the theory and technique of everything, too. You have to learn how to be able to work through training problems yourself. And remember, training is not always a bed of roses, so if you feel like its not going well, just try working through it and see what happens.

[mvp]

As someone two years in, you have a great (if dearly bought) opportunity in your trainer. Don't squander it.

You will learn how to do things the right way from the beginning. That's so much easier than relearning later.

But, you may only learn how to ride and not to train. That's a waste of time and ultimately unfair to your horse.

Make sure you ask your trainer questions that allow you to learn how to make your own decisions about improving your own horse and caring for him. Your goal with your first trainer ought to always be able to answer the question "What would BNT do here and why?" After that, you ought to broaden your education so that you build a large repertoire of riding, training and horse care/management strategies from which you can pick and choose.

Ultimately, you are responsible for your own progress and your horse's well-being. You will be unsatisfied if you become so co-dependent as to think you somehow can't cope alone.

[altering2]

Hony...that would be what I consider my ideal arrangement :yes: Take lessons, and try to work through as much myself as possible...and have trainer hop on when I'm seemingly at a dead end.

Flyingchange...I think you might be right. "Pretty much just passengers on a ship - and the trainer is at the helm."--I've felt like that on many occasions, and it's not a situation that I wish to be in permanently :no:

This made me :lol: "Oh, and the whole issue of the horse being talented and could do the upper levels but for it's rider, etc - really that is such poisonous thinking. Your horse is perfectly happy to be doing the LL with you. They.Don't.Care. what level they are doing as long as the level and workload is fair to them." .... I didn't mean that the horse would feel cheated by only being allowed to compete at the lower levels...I just meant I wish I could tap into or use his full potential. This has everything to do with my desire to progress/competitiveness and nothing to do with my horse's own self image ;)

[Kairoshorses]

I WISH I had the opportunity to become co-dependent!

No one around here "does" eventing.

So I try to lesson 1X a month, do lots of clinics, and I DO take lessons locally for dressage and jumping.

What happens is this: I end up getting a LOT of (seemingly) conflicting advice.

BUT when in a dressage lesson, my coach said 'rather than YOU trying to sort it out, see what your horse responds to'. We were working on sitting the trot, and I had breakthrough based on the Mary Wanless clinic I went to re: my position. When I sat the trot like my eventing coach told me to (or at least what I understood her to say), my horse hollowed and slowed; but when I used the new seat, he was "up" and forward.

So it's really frustrating, but I'm having to piece things together. But it would be great to ride w/ someone regularly, too, I think.

[Hony]

When you do a lot of the training yourself then you will go through tough times. However, when you 'get it' you really 'get it' and the lesson sticks with you forever.

The thing with my lessons is that generally I decide what we're working on. I work on things throughout the week and when I come across somthing I have trouble with I'll discuss it with coach at my lesson and we'll work through it. The first part of the lesson is usually working through things that I have questions about or me showing off things that I am now doing well! The second half is working through new stuff.
Lessons need to be a dialogue. Don't show up without anything to say or to work on. Having input shows that you have been thinking about your riding and helps you to develop the skills to be a thinking rider. Being a thinking rider is what will help you to school on your own in the future.
Why don't you consider going to a once or twice a week lesson plan. It will probably feel awful for months but in the end you'll save money and become a more thinking rider.

[altering2]

If things completely fall apart if the trainer is not there, however, I would wonder why your riding suffers when you are alone. Are you just not understanding what she tells you in lessons? Maybe she isn't explaining all the theory behind it? Do you get nervous? Do you need to be told every.single.step to be able to ride this horse?

I've never reached a stage where things completely fell apart...trainer is usually not gone for more than 5-7 days at any given time. At the end of that period, horse is usually not as good as when we started out. I'm not sure if things would eventually progress to "completely fall apart" if I forego training rides altogether. She is excellent at explaining the theory...but there seems to be a hidden/elusive element in riding this horse. Sometimes I (and trainer) don't know what I'm doing different, but horse just goes better for her. I do get nervous sometimes, and do border on the edge of needing to "be told every.single.step" once in a while.


Also, and I really hate to say this, but I don't think a BN/N rider should be holding onto a talented upper-level horse if she feels like she isn't learning and actively improving while riding him. Actually, that goes for all levels of riders ;) If I were in your place, I would sell the horse and get something a little easier. Doesn't have to be a packer, but do you really want to risk your confidence riding something that difficult/green? You sound a little defeated in your post. He may be uber talented, but maybe you could lease him for a year or two, try riding something with a bit more mileage, and then re-try him again? This is supposed to be fun, not stressful. I know :( I do kind of agree with you. But the little voice in my head keeps telling me that if I try hard enough, I can make our partnership work. I've already been approached by a couple UL rider/trainers that they'd be interested in buying if I ever decide to sell. His seeming popularity with these "pros" in the field makes me even less willing to give up...it's not often that I'm fortunate enough to have something this good. [/QUOTE]


Also, I just have to ask, but did you come from h/j land? I think it will be hard to find many eventers who are on such a trainer-dependent program (i.e. all the training rides). You do see more of the do-it-yourself types over here. Haha...no, I did not come from h/j land. I'm the product of a modern eventing barn :lol: OK...all joking aside...most people at my barn do have their horses ridden by trainer on a regular basis. I think there's an option of "full training" at most of the eventing barns with BNTs. Isn't that where they make a lot of their money? In addition to lessons, clinics, and sales, of course.

If you do feel comfortable with this horse, maybe you could just try dropping the training rides and see what happens? Sure, your progress might be slow for a while, but that might be what you need to learn to be a more independent rider. And I might also try getting more feedback from your trainer after a ride- what do you want me to work on between lessons? Make sure you understand the theory and technique of everything, too. You have to learn how to be able to work through training problems yourself. And remember, training is not always a bed of roses, so if you feel like its not going well, just try working through it and see what happens. Thanks for the advice...I think I'm going to do just that. Not sure if trainer will like this arrangement though.

[flyingchange]

:lol: OK. Gotcha. I think that when you have a nice one with potential, you just have to try not to let that desire to bring it out/be competitive overshadow the experience. Otherwise it's easy to be overwhelmed by it and be freaked out by every little "stumble" that you perceive as possibly inhibiting your path to your goals. I've had/have one with a lot of potential for ULs, and that pressure sometimes really got to me. When I finally took "ownership" of my relationship with that horse and our path together, things got a bit easier. Sometimes it's easier with a horse that is perceived as "average" - they really amaze you when they show you they are more than "average" - but that's also another discussion!

[deltawave]

For me it varies on time of year, finances, and how busy I am at work. During the summer and fall I keep my eventer at home, ride 3-4x a week including one lesson at the trainer's, and compete once every 6 weeks or so. During the winter, if finances are OK, I love to send my horse to my trainer's for full training, and I keep taking my one lesson a week.

My horse very, very definitely goes better with my trainer, but that's kind of what I'm paying her for! :) I don't sweat it--I have an easy, amateur mount and although her talent is not boundless, neither is mine. We have fun. :) What I define as a "successful partnership" between my horse and me is continued improvement, being safe and competent, and enjoying her. I don't include "winning" or "being competitive" even though I enjoy those things when they happen.

If my number one priority was having my horse in the ribbons all the time, I'd just have my trainer compete her. But that's not my goal, so I have to be honest about my abilities and my time to dedicate to riding--both limited--and set goals accordingly. If you can redefine your "successful partnership" as being improvement over time, you will probably be happier than if you hold yourself up to the standard of a professional rider all the time. :)

Your horse doesn't care if he makes it to the upper levels. Honest. You really need to define YOUR GOALS, and allow your horse to be your partner. By all means, everyone needs help, but just because you don't ride him as well as your trainer doesn't mean the progress you DO make is less important to your development as a rider.

[Ajierene]

I am generally against trainers getting on the owner's horse. I can understand a young horse learning something that the owner does not know - but to get on a horse three or four times a week just to keep it 'tuned'?

Something not right about that. My trainer has never been on my horse. Now, I have a lot of skill in starting horses and started her from scratch. Would she have gone farther/faster with another rider? Entirely possibly. Entirely possibly my trainer (who does not have the same fretful mother emotional attachment I have, let alone talent) could have hopped on her a few times and gotten her going good.

For me, that's part of the fun - everything my mare knows, she knows because I taught her - better or worse. My Trakehner issue, trainer could have gotten on and made my mare take the jump, but that's not the point. I need to learn to make her take the jump!

To me, that's what their ultimate goal should be - not to have the horse go up the levels, but to make horse and rider a better partner.

[altering2]

If you can redefine your "successful partnership" as being improvement over time, you will probably be happier than if you hold yourself up to the standard of a professional rider all the time. I think you're right. I guess it's really not realistic for me to expect myself to produce results as good as the BNT that rides 6+ horses a day and competes every other weekend. Maybe I've been fed too much of the "nothing's impossible if you set your mind to it" soup growing up :lol: Sometimes, I think my life would be a lot easier if I could be happy with small progress...perhaps not considered excellent or even good...but at least a nice, safe, competent average :)

[joharavhf]

Definitely NOT dependent on the trainer - my beasts are here at home with me and I ride independently all the time. However, when they are not BROKEN (grrrrrr) I do try to take 1 lesson a week - or maybe one every other week, depending on my schedule, the weather and what's coming up competition wise!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Umm....we ALL ride better when we have good ground people helping us.....EVEN TRAINERS. Our horses almost ALWAYS go better when a more experienced better rider rides them...EVEN Pros. Sorry...that is the honest truth. You are NOT unique in this respect :) No...you shouldn't be *dependent* on a trainer...but come on. Wake up. EVERYONE rides better with help. Trainers have to take lessons too...and get help. A second set of eyes...learn a different technique....or be reminded of things they already know.
No one is perfect. Learning how to school a horse and IMPROVE them takes years and YEARS of riding multiple horses AND taking lessons.

You have to decide what you want and having a horse in full training isn't always a bad thing...but take steps to increase your OWN learning. Make sure that you are riding at least 4-6 times a week. READ the masters, really develop a plan for each ride and really try and understand the exercises that your trainer is teaching you and what they are intended to do. Your partnership with your horse will grow and your riding will improve. Probably faster than if you tried it own your own....ask me how I know ;)

[jn4jenny]

You've gotten some great advice here, but as another smurfy type who's only been "in the eventing world" for two years, here's my thoughts. For the record, I own an 8-year-old horse that I've largely brought along myself--my arrangement with my trainer is very similar to Hony's.

In my experience, part of this is about the rider being assertive about their goals. I made it clear to my trainer from the beginning that I wanted to be the primary rider, and that if that meant things were going to take 2 or 3 or 4 times as long as it would take compared to having the trainer ride the horse, I was fine with that. And I told the trainer that if she ever felt I was in over my head and that that plan simply would not be possible with this horse, to let me know.

If you've got a good trainer, they should be THRILLED to hear this. My trainer is delighted that I know what I want from my horsey experience and that I'm 100% clear on what is realistic/non-realistic given my choices. My horse is relatively sane and can take a joke, so we've done fine on this plan. My friend's horse, by contrast, is a "professional's ride" and has required far more intensive support from the trainer.

If you are only riding 2x a week, then I'm not surprised that your riding isn't improving. I find that for horse OR for rider, it takes 4 rides weekly to really see an improvement. Like a green horse, I retain skills at 3 rides a week, bu it takes 4 or 5 for me to actually get BETTER. And frankly, I suck so much that there is no point in me taking more than 1-2 lessons per week; it takes me 3 or 4 more rides weekly to master the "homework" and come back for more, so on the rare occasions when I've tried to do more lessons, my trainer just ended up babysitting me through the same ride I would have executed on my own.

Your horse has also come to expect the consistency and quality of the trainer's riding, so it's hard to say whether the horse truly is a "professional's ride" that is beyond your means to ever effectively partner with OR if the horse could get used to your less-competent riding if you were the primary rider. And I say this as someone who is not even 1/4 the rider that my trainer is--while my horse may go much better for the trainer, he adapts back very quickly to my incompetence when I get back in the saddle. I can almost feel him under me thinking, "Oh it's The Weak Legs and Leans Forward Girl Again. Time for me to start responding to loosey goosey half-assed aids."

So as others have said, it's time for you to make a decision. If he is indeed a professional's ride and will probably never be an enjoyable experience for you even if you ride him 5 days a week with 2-3 lessons a week, you need to sell him and move on. If you are not sure whether he's a professional's ride or whether he can learn to work with you, you need to find time in your week to ride at least 4x and start weaning yourself off the 4-6 training rides a week schedule. You don't need to go cold turkey--for example, maybe at first you have the trainer hop on for half the ride and you ride for the other half (my trainer and I do this pretty regularly these days--I do the warmup and flatwork, then trainer hops on for the over-fences stuff). Or maybe you pay your trainer to just watch you ride without saying anything for 5 or 10 minutes at a time, then ask her to diagnose what she is seeing (for example, is she seeing the horse start to be a jerk and get insolent, or is she seeing you getting loosey goosey with a certain aid or with your position, or is she seeing you working on the wrong material or working on material in an illogical order, etc.)

Good luck to you. Try to remember that it's supposed to be FUN. Even when my horse and I are having a rough day and we're having "discussion" after "discussion", I try to step back and see the progress and think about how far we've come. For example, if he's anticipating the canter transitions, I think about the days when he didn't even know how to DO a proper canter transition. If I am having a Brain Fart Day where I just can't seem to keep my hands high enough or low enough, I think of the months upon end where my trainer had me ride with both hands clasped together because I couldn't even keep my hands in the right spot on the NECK, never mind the right spot vertically. If you find that you can't celebrate your progress and laugh at your momentary challenges, it's time to sell the horse.

[deltawave]

Maybe I've been fed too much of the "nothing's impossible if you set your mind to it" soup

:lol: But that BNT would probably find it impossible to get THEIR results if they had to go to a regular job 50 hours/week, provide for their family some other way than via horses, and spend time on their education, etc. EVERYTHING requires compromise. The things we sacrifice tend to be the things we spend our time daydreaming about--I always fantasize about going to Florida for the winter circuit, schooling every day, showing in the lovely weather, etc. etc. . . BUT, how to afford that while ditching my job for the 6 weeks? Who's going to pay the mortgage? What about my family, and my patients, etc. etc. etc?

So you have to try to be realistic, or you will always be pining away for something that's just not realistically achievable. When I had a horse who could take me to a three-day, I made ALL KINDS of sacrifices at work, with family, etc. to make that happen. And there are times when I don't do anything more than feed, clean stalls, and make sure my "at home" horses are breathing for days and days in a row when work or family demands a re-shuffling of who goes on the front burner. I don't aspire to the upper levels, I don't aspire to be super-competitive, I have learned to set goals that are actually realistic, and you know what? They turn out to be MORE fun for being actually attainable. :)

[Thames Pirate]

It sounds like you need a gradual weaning. If the trainer is currently riding 4x/week and you are riding 2x/week in lessons, maybe gradually cut the trainer days. Have the trainer ride 1-2x/week (to keep the horse "tuned") while you ride in your lessons 2x/week and work on what you did in your lesson the other 2x. This way if you run into a problem you can TRY to figure it out on your own, but if you struggle you have another lesson coming right up. Once you're comfortable with that, cut it to one lesson a week. That gives you several rides to figure out where you struggle, to experiment with what you know and how to apply it, and to work on any "homework" from your lessons. If you were working on lengthening the stride, for example, you can go on a hack and practice lengthening in the field. Don't drill it, but do work on it in between other things. By the next lesson you should be much better at lengthening. You shouldn't expect to have it nailed down, but you should see that you can lengthen on your own at least a little bit. During your next lesson, you can review the lengthenings and then add in something else (let's say a leg yield). You continue to work on the lengthening and the leg yield (and so on).

Once you are comfortable with the one lesson, one trainer ride a week model you can even cut to either alternating (lesson one week, training ride the next) or keep the weekly lessons and go to trainer every other week or once a month. Over time you'll find you might just enjoy the solo stuff as much as you do your lessons!

So what if you take a step or two backwards? You're not dumping the trainer--just scaling back. Honestly the best way to learn is to figure something out for yourself and to spend more hours in the saddle. You'll be a better rider for it.

[RAyers]

I think this is a hard question. I take 2 lessons a week (1 dressage, 1 jump) but that is because the upper levels are at a point where I need to be a TECHNICIAN/Super Skilled rider to be safe and competitive. So, am I dependent on a trainer? I don't think so as my XC trainer said he is confident I can run OI without him. However, he wants to be there when I run Advanced.

I built both of my eventers from ground up so I am pretty sure I can do it but I recognize that having good training is an advantage. Thus I have a dressage trainer, a jump trainer and an eventing trainer.

Reed

[altering2]

If you are only riding 2x a week, then I'm not surprised that your riding isn't improving. I find that for horse OR for rider, it takes 4 rides weekly to really see an improvement. Like a green horse, I retain skills at 3 rides a week, bu it takes 4 or 5 for me to actually get BETTER. And frankly, I suck so much that there is no point in me taking more than 1-2 lessons per week; it takes me 3 or 4 more rides weekly to master the "homework" and come back for more, so on the rare occasions when I've tried to do more lessons, my trainer just ended up babysitting me through the same ride I would have executed on my own. Too true. Many times I feel gulity about having horse "work" 2 times a day, so that's part of my reason for not riding more (even though I'm at the barn most days).

Your horse has also come to expect the consistency and quality of the trainer's riding, so it's hard to say whether the horse truly is a "professional's ride" that is beyond your means to ever effectively partner with OR if the horse could get used to your less-competent riding if you were the primary rider. And I say this as someone who is not even 1/4 the rider that my trainer is--while my horse may go much better for the trainer, he adapts back very quickly to my incompetence when I get back in the saddle. I can almost feel him under me thinking, "Oh it's The Weak Legs and Leans Forward Girl Again. Time for me to start responding to loosey goosey half-assed aids." :lol: Thanks for this last part. Can't help but think my horse feels the same way :lol:

[Jazzy Lady]

So your trainer rides the horse 5-6 x a week and you lesson 2x a week and then sometimes your horse gets worked twice a day?

He must be super fit for a bn/n horse, which could be part of the problem!

Can you cut out trainer days. Have her ride him 2x a week and you ride him 4x a week and he gets a day off to be a horse. You can lesson all of those and then gradually cut it back as well, so you have more independent rides in which to practice the things you get taught in your lessons.

It's great that you are getting coaching. EVERYONE should get coaching regardless of their skill level or experience or level. It's important to have a good ground person to point things out and help you.

BUT, you need to get to know your horse and develop a partnership, and you can't do that when you aren't riding except for in lessons and only a few times a week.

If my horse didn't go better for my trainer than for me... then why would I pay the trainer anything? That's why we pay.

[Brandy76]

Wow, your trainer has you right where s/he wants you. Consciously or sub-consciously. This is the model that the Hunters have used for years. Rider must have show horse at trainers barn in order to be competitive. Trainer must ride horse for horse to be OK. Rider must take at least weekly lessons or the sky will start to fall down and everything will fall apart. Horse will turn into a pumpkin and all that.

If you feel the need to move beyond the confines of the training board barn you are in, then do it. It seems like you accept that things might not go "perfectly" - but that's part of the experience. The downs are where we learn the most. If we don't allow ourselves to experience them, then what are we? Pretty much just passengers on a ship - and the trainer is at the helm. This situation is perfect for some people. They want it and that's fine. But if you want to be in control of your horse and your riding, which is a big part of your life in general, then there is nothing wrong with going out on a limb and weening yourself off your dependence on your trainer.

Depending on the trainer, s/he might or might not be OK with this decision! But that's another discussion.

Oh, and the whole issue of the horse being talented and could do the upper levels but for it's rider, etc - really that is such poisonous thinking. Your horse is perfectly happy to be doing the LL with you. They.Don't.Care. what level they are doing as long as the level and workload is fair to them.

Edited to add: I trailer to bi-weekly lessons and the trainer never gets on my horse. For better or worse!

That is me to a tee. I trailer for lessons a couple times per month. I have an ottb, that I started, did the basics, then started taking lessons. I even asked my trainer - who is a GODDESS - luff her - "do you want to get on him?" She says "why?" By the way, this woman never misses a trick, either. Fabulous upper level rider - very safety oriented, very fun.

I hear the "oh he is so talented" from friends about their horses, they are having the trainer ride nearly daily - they want him to do the upper levels, etc - not with them, though. It is poisonous thinking. It's not like your horse sits in the field going, "I just want to do Rolex!"

[Finn'sMom]

[QUOTE=

:lol: Thanks for this last part. Can't help but think my horse feels the same way :lol:[/QUOTE]


Same here!! This cracked me up!

My horse has been in training down south all winter. I'm really hoping when he and my trainer return that we can whittle down the training rides. Last year when we did this it took a while, but he started being really bratty with just me riding him. (he is still young - I think the bratty thing is almost gone now). I do ride 5 -6 days a week so I do see progress. :yes:

I think that in many aspects of our lives, "progress" happens fast. We are used to expecting quick results from everything from exercising, to diets, to learning new things at work. I find my riding progress to be sometimes excruciatingly slow, yet when I look back to a year ago, I think I am a much better rider. (and yet I am STILL having trouble making it around BN with Finn.. YIKES)In a way, that is what keeps riding interesting year after year - it doesn't happen overnight.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

I take one lesson every other week.

I could take one more frequently if desired or have the trainer come down if a problem arises but I am not made out of money. One hour lesson can be $45.00-$100.00 depending on the instructor you have and I am sorry but I cannot afford that 1 or more time a week. For those of you who can, good for you, I'd like to know how you have so much money on top of board, feeding, tack, farrier and other equine expenses. That doesn't even factor in personal expenses/cost of living.

For the most part I ride my horse and my instructor...well...instructs :) And I get "homework" to do between lessons.

[yellowbritches]

There was really no good option on the poll for me, and I am now the only one who picked "lesson 3-4 days a week." However, I WORK for my coach, and since I spend all day, every day with him and we are often riding in the ring together, I get a lot of feedback from him on my riding. So, I might get some instruction or some constructive criticism on a near daily basis. I do get usually one jump school a week and he might give me an honest to God dressage lesson once a week or so. He does also occasionally ride my horse (he'll ride Vernon, but not Paco. We have found out the hard way that this just totally un-does Paco for a few days, which is part of the reason I ended up with him in the first place!). But, I'm also to the point in my riding that I can get on either of my horses and pretty much every other horse in the barn and school it and school it well without the boss in the ring talking me through it. I don't NEED the daily feedback, but it's there and welcomed.

What a rider like you, the OP, need to decide, is what kind of rider you want to be. If you like the feeling of almost always having a great ride, even if that means lots of schooling rides and lessons, then there is nothing wrong with that (as long as you can survive the three phases without sideline coaching ;)). But if you think you want to be more on your own with less constant feedback, AND are willing to accept the limitations that might bring you, then that's totally cool, too. Yes, your trainer is probably really liking your money, but MOST event trainers are not like a lot of h/j trainers and understand that eventers are fairly independent minded and like the feeling of figuring it out on their own.

Good luck!

[Shrunk "N" Da Wash]

I have a naughty, young wb that has a good bronco impersonation... :eek:Therefore, we have him in full training with my coach and I head down 2+ times a week to have a lesson on the pony. Luckily I have my mare at home so I can ride her everyday by myself... I'm rather independent with her training but I still get lessons quite a bit. Then at events I have my coach warm me up and walk courses. The more lessons you get the better you ride! and your parents barking orders at you doesn't count as training...:lol:
Nothing wrong with being co-dependent.

[Liebe-ist-Krieg]

My first real eventer and I both started out together equally green (not something i necessarily recommend). He had never really jumped before, and I had just done 1 or 2 bn events with my previous horse (who had also never really jumped when i got him). I worked for my trainer for a summer, and got mini lessons about 4 times a week. By the middle of the summer we did our first novice, then that fall our first training, and by the spring preliminary. To this day, my trainer still has not sat on him! Although I think that having such an intense schedule of lessons in the summer really helped, i don't believe it is the only way to progress as a green rider with a green horse (once the school year started, i went back to 1 lesson/week).
that being said, in the fall i also bought a more experianced horse from my trainer (they did not get along at all, to this day he refused to give me dressage lessons on him :lol: ) the combination of having an experianced horse and a green horse was probably one the best things that I could have. Riding 2 horses 6 days a week also greatly improved my riding.
Idk what your budget is, but if its possible, I would recommend getting a somewhat experianced horse and keeping your greenie (who really should not be all that green after being ridden by your trainer for a year)

[GotSpots]

As an aside, I can't imagine having a coach or trainer who doesn't occasionally get on my horse: I want him/her to feel what I'm feeling so we can sort out what's the hole in my ride, and what's the horse's resistance/lack of strength/training/etc. Particularly as I move up the levels, it's important to me not only to get the best coaching I can find, but to have the best possible help as we try to meet our goals and to do so safely and successfully and for me, because I'm not always certain that I'm giving the correct cue, having a coach or trainer who can help me learn it and then teach it to the horse is very helpful.

As far as "co-dependent" it's much more a matter of what your priorities are. If you're working full time, trying to balance work/family/life/horses, having your horses in a full care program can make alot of sense: there are only so many hours in the day, and it's really nice to have someone else take care of making sure the farrier is there, the horses get turned out wearing the right jammies, and someone else is handling hand-walking. Sure, you give up knowing intimately every single inch of your horse and riding six days a week, but you find good people and you trust them, and you gain back some portion of your personal life or family life. Alternately, you cut the time out of your career, your family, your personal life and spend that time with your horses. There's only so many hours in the day - it's up to you to figure out the balance.

None of these are inherently "bad" or "wrong" choices - just different. Figure out what's the best combination for your life/job/horse/family and make it work for you.

[Kementari]

At the moment I am not taking lessons, though I would always like to be, as we all have something to learn still and even just having another set of eyes is invaluable - and all the more so when they are pro eyes. That said, when I AM taking lessons, I usually do every other week, because I like the time that gives me in between to really sift through things and learn to take the next step on my own (riding at BN/N, that is). After all, my trainer isn't going to be there in the middle of the xc course! (As a novice, I took lessons once a week, though, because then you don't have the skills yet to work out quite so much on your own. ;) I'd been riding 3 or 4 years before I went to bi-weekly.)

I have an OTTB (who I bought with nothing but race training) and an Arab (who I bought as a weanling, but trained from the time she was 2 days old). A trainer has literally swung a leg over ONE of them ONCE - when I first got the TB, my trainer at the time hopped up for about ten minutes just to see what he was like. Other than that, I've done all the work, which is how I and my trainer(s) prefer it. I'm not going to get to Rolex, but for me, personally (and nothing against those who feel differently!), I'd rather be able to say that I did ALL the work to get my horse to Novice than say that I relied on trainer rides to get my horse to Advanced. :yes:

[Fence2Fence]

All good comments.

I don't think I've seen anyone mention this (sorry if someone has)... Do you have another horse available to you to ride the days your trainer is riding your horse?

If I miss a day riding, no big deal. If I miss two days, I can tell. If I miss three days, my horse can tell and we're both miserable. And if I had someone who was a little better than me riding everyday and I was missing saddle time... Yikes, that wouldn't be good! He's getting tuned up while I'm getting tuned down!

I think you have a very nice situation, and I don't think you should devalue it or think there is something 'wrong' with you. If you had a second horse to ride while your's is being worked, I don't think you could have a better educational opportunity.

In the past, I've taken daily and three a week lessons. I currently take 1-2 a week (mostly one a week), but I'm currently thinking about boarding my horse at my trainer's and take a lesson everyday for a week or two for a very serious boot camp.

And I second throwing out and never allowing yourself to think "My horse can be an upper level horse if I was better." Maybe he'd get to prelim with Ms. Pro Trainer and hate it? How do you know? Maybe he just wants to smurf out with you all day.

And another type of thinking I'd throw out... is the thought you can't be 'successful' or have 'good rides' without your trainer. Trainer is there saying "Do this, better...do that, good!" You get constant feedback during your ride. Unless you are talking or thinking "I need to do this, ah! better! Or "I need to do that and more of that, Ok, great!" then you aren't getting positive feedback. It's hard to avoid a negative thought/speech process with yourself, but it's crucial since it's just a downward spiral.

[Catalina]

As an aside, I can't imagine having a coach or trainer who doesn't occasionally get on my horse: I want him/her to feel what I'm feeling so we can sort out what's the hole in my ride, and what's the horse's resistance/lack of strength/training/etc. Particularly as I move up the levels, it's important to me not only to get the best coaching I can find, but to have the best possible help as we try to meet our goals and to do so safely and successfully and for me, because I'm not always certain that I'm giving the correct cue, having a coach or trainer who can help me learn it and then teach it to the horse is very helpful.

:yes: I totally agree with GotSpots. If I am having an issue with my horses I want my trainer to get on and sort it out so I can be more effective when I get back on. Having said that, my trainer has only ridden my horses a few times (except for when I go on the rare vacation and I want to keep them in work). At shows she is there if she can, but she knows that I am perfectly capable of doing it myself. The only time I insist that she be there is when I move up a level, and that is more for moral support then anything else.

I came from H/J land about three years ago where people are so trainer dependent that it is ridiculous. I have actually seen people scratch classes because their trainer wasn't there to warm them up :eek:.

[Bobthehorse]

There was no option on the poll that fit my situation which I think is the same for many people. I lesson once a week. Every so often my coach will hop on my horse to help me sort something out. For instance, a few weeks ago I was having trouble picking up right lead canter on a left circle. This was something new for my horse and me so my aids were out of whack. My coach got on, helped my horse through it, showed me what he was doing and then I got back on to do it.
I will never expect to be able to do everything without a coach. Even top level riders need coaching. We're never finished learning.

Thats my situation. Except in the winter, when Im at school, I can only ride 4 days a week, friday through monday. So she rides them both on wednesdays, just to keep their work up.

[scubed]

I take one or two lessons per week (always a dressage lesson, sometimes a jump) and my trainer rides one day a week plus when I travel for work or vacation (I have always had horses that need to be on the 5-6 days a week program and I typically ride 4-5 days per week). I like my trainer routinely riding my horse so that she knows where he is and can help me more effectively because of it. However, I would never have a horse that I couldn't successfully progress on myself (no matter how slowly) with just a lesson every week or two. I like the faster progress that comes with a little more lessoning, but I like the advancement in my riding ability (feeble as it remains) and the partnership with my horse that develops from being the primary rider.

[flyingchange]

Maybe he just wants to smurf out with you all day.


:lol:

O.M.G. This is my new favorite quote. And I think you just invented a new phrase!!!! Thank you!!!!

[RAyers]

...he's super talented and could easily be successful at the upper levels...if only my riding were better.


Karen O'Conner offered to buy my horse several times. Then she told my trainer, that my horse can go "all the way," if I didn't screw him up. My trainer then told me. Well, my response - on the inside - was fuck that I am going to become a better rider and go all the way with my horse! Because she said that there was no way I was selling the boy. It has been a hard and brutal road but worth every moment.

Reed

[Bobthehorse]

It's great that you are getting coaching. EVERYONE should get coaching regardless of their skill level or experience or level. It's important to have a good ground person to point things out and help you.

BUT, you need to get to know your horse and develop a partnership, and you can't do that when you aren't riding except for in lessons and only a few times a week.

Agreed. While regular lessons are great for skills, things like feel and problem solving only come when you get to work things through on your own. With the voice of your coach nagging in your head, of course ;).

[denny]

Have you ever watched a trainer take a bunch of students on a course walk?
It resembles a mother duck with a flock of dependent little ducklings.

At some point in a rider`s life, isn`t it time to shed the fluff, and become a full fledged duck?

I was warmup steward at an event a couple of weeks ago, and some young rider almost eliminated herself because her trainer wasn`t there to warm her up before xc.

This kid was going intermediate, and was at least old enough to be serving in Iraq.

Where`s the self sufficiency?

[Kementari]

That is so apt, denny! :lol:

I walk courses with my trainer whenever I have the chance, even at events that I'm not riding in, because I figure I can never learn too much about different ways of riding different questions. BUT, if it's a course I'm riding, I always ALWAYS walk it without a trainer, too, and that's when I make the decisions about how best to ride it myself, bearing in mind any advice she or others may have had (assuming I've walked it with her at all - plenty of times I only walk it myself), but also what works specifically for me and my horse. :yes:

[joharavhf]

Have you ever watched a trainer take a bunch of students on a course walk?
It resembles a mother duck with a flock of dependent little ducklings.

At some point in a rider`s life, isn`t it time to shed the fluff, and become a full fledged duck?


:lol::lol::lol:

OMG, I have SOOOO seen this. Makes me feel left out sometimes!

I'm the kind of rider who actually prefers NO COACHING at events (except *maybe* xc warm-up!). I kinda get in this 'zone' where I know what I need to do and I try to visualize it happening at the event.

Unfortunately that makes me also feel like a bit of a loner, since there *are* so many people out there (at least in the barns I've ridden at) that seem to need their hands held.

[technopony]

When I was in dressage land, I was definitely dependent on my trainer in this way (I was also a YR with a string of green horses). Since venturing out into Eventer Land, I've made a conscious effort to become more independent in my dressage. My horse definitely doesn't go as well as consistently as when she was in full training (I usually do 1 lesson a week, me riding). But, I really am learning how to train now, and for the one or two dressage shows we do a year, I get extra help the week before from trainer and have an "instant dressage pony" for the weekend :D

[Bobthehorse]

I have a naughty, young wb that has a good bronco impersonation... :eek:Therefore, we have him in full training with my coach and I head down 2+ times a week to have a lesson on the pony.

Nothing wrong with being co-dependent.

I have a young bouncy bronc too (teleportation is his speciality), but I am the better for learning how to ride him through that myself. He will always have that side of him, and I need to know how to deal with it calmly and effectively.

I guess Im just the kind of gal who finds codependency toxic, whether it be boyfriends or coaches. This one likes to know she would be fine on her own :D.

[catmchorse]

I don't ride with any one trainer exclusively - I'm in Pony Club, so I get access to different trainers or clinicians fairly frequently, although there is a consistent weekly lesson that I go to most often.

Some months I take a lesson every week plus one or two PC clinics/rally prep/whatever. Some months, like this month, I'll go to one lesson and one clinic because I want to spend the rest of my time working on my own, really thinking through the things I've learned. It also depends on the size of my paycheck and how much I've had to spend on board/feed/etc for the month ;)

I really prefer to be independent [though I'm a teenager, so it might just come with the package]. I go to lessons to get insight into how to fix my own problems and help my horse go better - in the last five years a trainer has been on my horse maybe five times. I like it that way.

That being said, I started off really stupidly with a fresh green OTTB and, while I had frequent lessons, I did a lot of thinking and learning and training on my own. So it's kind of ingrained in me to want to work through things by myself!

[Lincoln]

Maybe the consistent theme that comes out of this is that there isn't a one-size fits-all answer. Most of us do this for fun, and at the end of the day it's got to scratch whatever itch got you into riding to begin with. Sometimes it's a bit of not so fun to get to the funner bit, but it doesn't make sense to spend so much time and money on something that doesn't make you really, really happy.

Also, what makes you happy changes over time - How intense you want to be, how much risk you're willing to take, as well as how independent you feel comfortable being.

If you want to be a baby duck while you're learning how to fly, that's cool, and probably pretty smart and safe. If it's time to spread your wings, go for it. If you discover that your flying technique isn't working for you, time to go back to flight school. (So much for that metaphor.)

The thing that makes me sad is people torturing themselves and their horses because whatever they've got going isn't working for them. The trick is to try to be honest with yourself about what you really want, take responsibility for determining a path to get there and go for it. Not so easy to do, but satisfying.

[Tucked_Away]

Man, I love eventing. And eventers. I adore this thread. (And OP, I hope you find a solution that works for you and for your horse--best of luck!)

[Miriam]

I try to take one dressage and one jumping a week. My horse and I moved up to Prelim this spring, and it's the first time at that level for either of us. My instructor will get on if I ask, especially to help with new things that I've never done before, like introducing changes. For the most part, I work through things on my own. For example, yesterday I had a crappy lesson. It was raining, I had no leg, and my horse was being difficult. At one point I pulled up and said that I just didn't have it in me, I didn't have the strength or control, etc. She looked up and said, "well, you better find it then." You know what? I did. I dug down deep, and I got it together. She didn't offer to get on, and I didn't even think to ask.

I appreciate that I can work through things, and I'm glad she was there to help me do it. On the other hand, if she'd gotten on to help straighten him out some, I wouldn't have learned anything besides getting off. I know she could get on and "fix" some of the issues, but he's my horse, and I'm proud of the progress we've made together. I think it's all about finding a balance. A good trainer enables you, helps you, and encourages you to do better. I'm not saying your trainer isn't all of those things, but if you aren't satisfied, then make the switch to fewer lessons, training rides, etc. It's all about the process. I can't wait to go on through the levels, but I want it because my horse and I got there together.

[asterix]

You've gotten lots of good advice here.

I'll assume you have two main goals -- I think this assumption probably underlies most of the answers you've received, so hopefully we are all on the right track:

1. You want to have fun (this implies, for me, being safe/not overwhelmed, and having some sense of forward progress)

2. You want to compete, and have fun while doing it (again, feeling safe/not overwhelmed, perhaps some sense of forward progress)

If your current set-up isn't getting this done for you, then change it! I think you can see from the answers that most of us do not have as much trainer time (certainly not trainer ride-time) as you do, but that doesn't mean it's wrong for you!

I will repeat what others have said -- you need to ride at least 4 times a week, consistently, to get better, and to feel comfortable with this sport. Heck, I ride 6 days a week, 2 horses, and I often feel like I don't have enough time to do what needs to be done in a week -- conditioning days, for horse's fitness and my comfort going at speed over terrain; dressage days; jumping days; hacking out with friends, fun for both of us. Whoop, another week goes by!!!

It's a sport with a lot of skill sets, including knowing how your horse feels in the field, in the dressage ring, in the jump arena, that you just can't replicate without saddle time.

Also, when you compete, as you know, you are pretty much on your own out there -- so I think there is a real benefit to working on your own enough that you learn how things feel when they are going right or wrong. Obviously you shouldn't school xc "on your own" but fixing problems with help from the ground rather than a training ride can be really valuable.

One last thing -- your horse will NEVER go as well if you ride it all the time vs. having your trainer ride a bunch. Probably your horse would go even better if Karen O'Connor rode it every day. But so what??? You HAVE to give that up in our sport. Heck, your horse would do better dressage if it practiced dressage every day, right? But you can't do that. First, your horse would kill you (well, if it were mine he would). Secondly, yeah, what about all that other stuff? So the inherent nature of our sport is to be a bit of a compromise about being well-rounded vs. "the best you can be" at one thing.

the same goes for balancing getting training lessons or rides vs doing it yourself -- in the end, you are riding your horse for you, right?

Just keep telling yourself that it is OK to have fun, ride as best you can, and know that it is never going to be "as good as it could be" in a perfect world.

[Bobthehorse]

I think once you get past the rough transition from trainer to you, you will start to feel better about it. If you only ride him twice a week, its easy to feel like nothing is going right, because a) you arent used to him and b) you arent that saddle-fit. If I dont ride nearly every day, I feel like I cant make my body do anything I want it to. Its frustrating for sure.

But I do think in order to compete you have to commit to riding your horse at least 4 days a week. I know people manage without that (one in my barn, she did pretty badly at PT last year, but wants to upgrade to training, but doesnt want to ride more than twice a week.....I know) but often they dont have good results on show day, because they end up not knowing their horse inside out. If the horse has a moment, they freak out because they arent used to riding through that. Such a valuable part of riding for sure. And the more time you spend in the saddle, the better your stick will be too.

My horses go better for my coach, but *I* want to ride them. And maybe one day they will go just as well for me. One day.