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Newyorknewyork
Apr. 1, 2009, 12:42 AM
Got in a bit of a tiff with a trainer at the horse show this past weekend in FL. Said trainer has quarter horses and does all the big QH shows. Her exact words "Our horses could kick all of these horses &%$# because they're trained to carry themselves correctly". We were watching a Jr. Hunter class which was full of very good company. I just found this so frustrating and wrong. Their dicipline is completely different than ours, horses are trained differently. I feel that their horses aren't carrying themselves correctly, am I the only one? So what exactly is it that differs our horses, the typical hunter jumper from the quarter horse? Training wise what is it that differs our methods and theirs?

CaliforniaSyndrome
Apr. 1, 2009, 12:46 AM
Got in a bit of a tiff with a trainer at the horse show this past weekend in FL. Said trainer has quarter horses and does all the big QH shows. Her exact words "Our horses could kick all of these horses &%$# because they're trained to carry themselves correctly". We were watching a Jr. Hunter class which was full of very good company. I just found this so frustrating and wrong. Their dicipline is completely different than ours, horses are trained differently. I feel that their horses aren't carrying themselves correctly, am I the only one? So what exactly is it that differs our horses, the typical hunter jumper from the quarter horse? Training wise what is it that differs our methods and theirs?

I actually had a similar convo today with someone, it was one I don't look forward to ever having again - no end. I would just agree to disagree. Different discipline's call for different ways of training, and riding etc ... :yes:

AGRHJRider
Apr. 1, 2009, 12:56 AM
I think in the hunter/jumper section there is a very similar question posted...
actually i know there is because I asked the question. If you look up previous posts that i have posted you can see the thread. sorry i don't have a link off hand.
Varying responses really, its hard to justify a validation for your question becuase the training methods differ by the trainer not by the discipline or breed.
One thing i can say about the QH thing is that the horses are expected to be dead broke and usually are very quiet on the flat.
Now although the rule book states one thing (as far as the QH hunters go) you do see a lot of Winglish (western/english) horses placing very well in the AQHA stuff. But if a horse is winning at the "A" level as well then they have to be doing something right? agreed???
Take it with a grain of salt, 95% of people think "their" way is correct... you'll fare way better off if you allow yourself to have an open mind.
Im just delving into the QH world. I have two students that ive worked with for the last year and a half and in that time one has placed top 25 in youth, and another is 9th in the Select jumpers. I have learned so much from the QH world in this time. I love it really. Im really looking forward to world in August and November.
Now you're not gonna see me stop going to the "A's" :winkgrin: but its a fun circuit.

Plumcreek
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:02 AM
Trainers in both worlds could learn a lot from each other. The QHs are broke to death on the flat, but if they had to gallop and jump with freedom in a plain snaffle, maybe some would act a little less broke. USEF hunter horses could, as a group, use more flat work and gain whole body adjustability. I used what I learned from the QH world and reining on my young hunters and my very good, very traditional USEF trainer really liked the feel.

But rail class showing frames? It is really different, like oil and water. The top QH hunters cross over just fine to USEF, as many threads here have stated.

Seven-up
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:03 AM
Choo, choo, here comes the train...:lol:


Like I told someone else before, you can't compare apples and oranges. You can have the prettiest, juciest, most perfect orange in the world, but no matter how wonderful it is, it still makes a shitty apple.


End of story. Don't get into a fight trying to compare things that aren't the same.

CaliforniaSyndrome
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:23 AM
Choo, choo, here comes the train...:lol:


Like I told someone else before, you can't compare apples and oranges. You can have the prettiest, juciest, most perfect orange in the world, but no matter how wonderful it is, it still makes a shitty apple.


End of story. Don't get into a fight trying to compare things that aren't the same.

Amen, that almost just brought me to tears.

jetsetter
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:29 AM
Choo, choo, here comes the train...:lol:


Like I told someone else before, you can't compare apples and oranges. You can have the prettiest, juciest, most perfect orange in the world, but no matter how wonderful it is, it still makes a shitty apple.


End of story. Don't get into a fight trying to compare things that aren't the same.






BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!:yes:

cssutton
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:47 AM
Just tell them to go get their horse and put him in the class.

Then go get a cup of coffee and forget it.

CSSJR

mvp
Apr. 1, 2009, 08:59 AM
Or perhaps you are right about training at the bottom of each discipline.... or maybe you are correct when you look at 3/4ths to the traditional hunters vs. the AQHA variety.

But when you get to the very top, you will find correct horses and correct self-carriage in both worlds. Witness the instances of dressage riders switching horses with reining riders.

I adore the traditional hunters and think that a kid's or my own (amateur) show hunter or field hunter ought to be as broke and easy to ride as Western Pleasure horse. He just happens to gallop and jump (and make his own good decisions) while he's doing it.

I am very grateful for exposure to the Western world. They do get a young horse started well and produce horses that are mentally and physically easy to ride. Isn't that what "we" want too? If so, take a look over there. They are doing somethings very, very right.

Dinah-do
Apr. 1, 2009, 10:21 AM
Very early in the morning and I should know better but....the QH are not in front of the leg, the hands are not slightly in front of the withers, much further apart than H/J. QH fourbeat and they do not gallop. Put your leg on a QH and they "bridle up" not move forward. We have a friends in the WP world and they would never say a QH could kick but. When the WP had to "trot out" the coaches had a real problem as the horses just would not move. Look at the conformation - WP horses are built level, hunters are more uphill. I could gon on and on. Apples and oranges.

tidy rabbit
Apr. 1, 2009, 10:36 AM
I think the two are getting closer and closer.

In either group you'll see the horses going around with their poles lower than their withers. Look up the thread on here about hack winning trot and look at the pictures of the those (USEF) horses.

Compare them to the HUS horses..... USEF stride is bigger and faster and they ride with a slightly shorter rein, not much else different in the over all picture, except the horse obviously, but the overall impression is, well, of a horse traveling on it's forehand (in both groups). The speed at which they go around may differ but I think they have more similarities now than they used to.

Of course I'm sure I'm wrong about it all and don't know nut'n about nut'n as I'm constantly reminded on a daily basis.

grayarabpony
Apr. 1, 2009, 10:43 AM
QHs have been very successful in the hunter world. Look at Cactus Jack. Years ago there was a story in PH about an amateur rider who successfully showed him in the indoors with an Appendix QH. She bought him for 20K, sold him for 40, and this was 20 years ago.

Not all QHs are short-legged, long-backed and downhill. Depends on the horse.

caradino
Apr. 1, 2009, 10:49 AM
for the most part, i agree with the apples/oranges folks. a good AQHA hunter is not necessarily a good USEF hunter. the judges just want different things.

but lately i've been spending a lot of time with friends who do the AQHA circuit, mostly WP and other western disciplines. and i am really beginning to appreciate the "western" and "QH" ways of doing things. i would love it if our hunters were expected to behave like QH's are. there is no "oh well he doesn't LIKE when i brush him there/picking up his feet/that end of the arena/jumps that are blue...etc." if it doesn't hurt the horse, he's expected to just deal with things that we often 'let' our hunters spook and fuss over. they're expected to stand until told to go, either on the ground or under saddle. i'm just loving the attitude towards the horses that when they're around people, they're on the job, and there is no time for nonsense or silliness.

riding wise, if you sit on a well-trained, properly muscled WP horse, it's OBVIOUS that they carry themselves 'correctly' by any standard. you feel that back round up, and the hind end drop down and under to power them forward. even though they go a lot slower than we're used to, and have a lower neckset, the good ones don't plop around on the forehand. to go slow the correct way takes just as much conditioning as forward.

that said... i think both disciplines have things to learn from each other, and i'm always glad to be exposed to something i'm unfamiliar with!

pattnic
Apr. 1, 2009, 10:51 AM
Technically, a well-trained (correctly-trained) QH should be responsive to leg, should NOT four-beat, and should still be working off its hind end, even if the horse has a more level topline (naturally, as some do, or through training). Unfortunately, shortcuts taken have given a bad name/impression to almost all QH hunters/HUS.

A well-trained (correctly-trained) hunter should also be responsive to leg and should also be working off its hind end.

I think in both worlds we see more horses pulling themselves along on their forehand than we really ought.

My understanding is that what we should see in both worlds is a horse that carries their head naturally, is accepting of the bit (but not "on the bit" the way we would expect an upper-level dressage horse), is responsive to leg, mannerly, good gaits (whatever the speed), and working off the hind end.

WorthTheWait95
Apr. 1, 2009, 10:52 AM
Got in a bit of a tiff with a trainer at the horse show this past weekend in FL. Said trainer has quarter horses and does all the big QH shows. Her exact words "Our horses could kick all of these horses &%$# because they're trained to carry themselves correctly". We were watching a Jr. Hunter class which was full of very good company. I just found this so frustrating and wrong. Their dicipline is completely different than ours, horses are trained differently. I feel that their horses aren't carrying themselves correctly, am I the only one? So what exactly is it that differs our horses, the typical hunter jumper from the quarter horse? Training wise what is it that differs our methods and theirs?

There are horses out there that win at both the AA H/J shows AND the very big QH shows in the hunters. The Doddriges' (sp?) on the west coast have several QH's and win a ton in both circuits with them. The daughter also has several nice WB's and wins a ton on them. So it is possible to be successful in BOTH worlds.

But I do agree that the majority of the QH hunters from the QH world would be lost in the H/J world but certainly not all.

kellyb
Apr. 1, 2009, 10:54 AM
Choo, choo, here comes the train...:lol:


Like I told someone else before, you can't compare apples and oranges. You can have the prettiest, juciest, most perfect orange in the world, but no matter how wonderful it is, it still makes a shitty apple.


End of story. Don't get into a fight trying to compare things that aren't the same.

Thank you.

We also just had this discussion a couple weeks ago, so here are four pages for the OP to sift through. (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=194238)

findeight
Apr. 1, 2009, 11:53 AM
Well, having shown both, have to say the QH show horses ARE usually better broke overall then your average Hunter Jumper. Dead broke, bomb proof every place all the time.

That does NOT neccassarily translate into making it down the lines or any brilliance over the fences themselves. And the H/J set does tolerate what they call "exhuberance" or "porpoising" while the QH types just call it "bucking".

So my old QHs and Paints back when could go in a halter and lead rope, would all ground tie, allow me to open AND close the gate from the saddle (without letting go), mount/dismount from either side, tolerate kids under their bellies and even let you slide off down the rump.

My TB and WB Hunters? Not so much. And it is not considered important.

So, Yeah, QHs may be dead broke as a rule-that does not help them get around that course.

And even in the HUS, the Open Hunter is judged on quality and movement, the QH is mistake and OUT. It's a different world.

JB
Apr. 1, 2009, 12:25 PM
QH fourbeat and they do not gallop.
I'd hope a USEF Hunter isn't galloping around the ring either ;)

It's rare to see a HUS horse doing the 4-beat "canter", and they don't do the gawd-awful trope that is common in the WP ring. Perhaps you are confusing the two - HUS vs WP? A HUS horse is actually moving out a bit. By the same token, it's not uncommon to see a USEF Hunter flat class, at anything but higher divisions, where the horses have zero suspension in their canter - still 3 beats, but not very impulsive.

SHOULD it be that way? No. There are HUS horses who 4-beat - it's wrong, and they know it.


Put your leg on a QH and they "bridle up" not move forward. We have a friends in the WP world and they would never say a QH could kick but. When the WP had to "trot out" the coaches had a real problem as the horses just would not move. Look at the conformation - WP horses are built level, hunters are more uphill. I could gon on and on. Apples and oranges.
It's apparent now that you're talking about WP and not HUS - very very different.

mvp
Apr. 1, 2009, 12:37 PM
I don't think all QH's are down hill.

They don't all 4-beat at the canter

They don't all curl up when leg is applied.

Again, I think you might be comparing bad apples to ok oranges. And if you haven't ever seen a USEF hunter offer a 4-beat canter or one verging on that, you haven't been watching carefully.

So even if the average USEF hunter goes more correctly than the average QH HUS horse (not the WP) horse, I do give credit to the Western world-- even the average part-- for making really broke horses. Good to see some other H/J people finding value in that, too.

FairWeather
Apr. 1, 2009, 12:38 PM
Carrying themselves correctly *For The Job* is a whole lot different than saying "carrying themselves correctly"

There is no "correct" across the board, if there were, a racehorse could win dressage a grand prix and vice versa.

FindersKeepers
Apr. 1, 2009, 12:57 PM
as others said, apples and oranges.

I have been around both worlds, and honestly a well trained horse is a well trained horse. Period.

My first horse was a QH. She didn't have perfect hunter confirmation, but we did very well in the Children's at the USEF shows. Always in the tricolors. She was dead broke, did anything I asked, and had decent enough confirmation and movement to make it a nice picture.

you just can't compare a horse trained to rope or cut to a horse trained to do the jumpers... that's like comparing a football player and a pro bowler. Really? Would it make an sense at all?

SmokenMirrors
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:06 PM
Being a QH owner, I am pretty fond of the breed. Could it be that down the years, a good honest QH could be trained to do pretty much anything? And in that because they have good minds, are tractable to what they do, are willing and able? Look at Rugged Lark and his offspring, all horses who can do it all, and I got the pleasure of seeing Lynn Palm ride Rugged Lark some years back at an expo and she put him through is paces. His offspring are doing quite well in all different disciplines too.

Just my .02 worth. Some great comments on the aspect of the breed.

GoshenNY
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:11 PM
A QH western pleasure horse is totally different than a QH HUS, they are even bred differently,,,,, one sire is a western pleasure sire and one would be a HUS,,,,,,,, even the reiners are different, I really don't think there is a QH that sires both WP and Reiners.
Each class has its specific desirables that they breed for. Pleasure breeds for shorter flatter movement, HUS breeds for that big floaty trot, Reiners breed for a super strong hind end for the slide and spin, but must be light in the front to get the change.

Mara
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:25 PM
WP horses aren't SUPPOSED to 4-beat, but you do see it. And I know there are a lot of people in that discipline who can't stand the "peanut-rollers", but right now it's what pins. Some of the AQHA HUS classes I've seen look like the tack and clothing were simply switched out - the horses carry themselves the same way.

Perfect Pony
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:26 PM
The QH HUNTERS absolutely can and do cross over quite well and successfully. I almost bought a horse from two top QH/Paint trainers that take their horses to the bog A shows on the west coast as well, and do very well.

The QH classes over fences are completely different than the HUS classes.

JB
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:29 PM
And I know there are a lot of people in that discipline who can't stand the "peanut-rollers", but right now it's what pins.

It's been a rule for at least a couple of years now (2?) that the poll cannot be lower than the withers, or the horse is DQ'd and for SURE not pin. If you see anything to the contrary, you should report the judges :)

SmokenMirrors
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:30 PM
A QH western pleasure horse is totally different than a QH HUS, they are even bred differently,,,,, one sire is a western pleasure sire and one would be a HUS,,,,,,,, even the reiners are different, I really don't think there is a QH that sires both WP and Reiners.
Each class has its specific desirables that they breed for. Pleasure breeds for shorter flatter movement, HUS breeds for that big floaty trot, Reiners breed for a super strong hind end for the slide and spin, but must be light in the front to get the change.


While the disciplines are different Goshen, there are QH sires out there who do both quite well and their offspring do well in both fields too.

There are two "types" of QH builds out there, those who are taller, leggy, more TB in look and the shorter, stockier foundation bred and build who are better suited for the cutting and western aspects. However, to say that there isn't a QH that has sired both is false. Here are some sires who have sired both that you describe:

Hollywood Jack 86
Rugged Lark
Skipper W
Royal Chick O Lena


Those are just a few...I could name more but you get the hint. It is how the horse is trained and if it is right for that discipline, not always has to do with the breed or blood lines.

findeight
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:38 PM
Those sires named are not currently active, believe most are dead, one for 50+ years.

Today not so sure there are any at all as the horses have become increasingly discipline specific right down to the needed conformation-that does not translate to any great talent in another area that requires a different skill set. Bloodlines do get you specific conformation for a specific job, even within broader breed and type requirements that make a breed a breed.

Doubt you could get a top 10 Reiner and top HUS out of the same sire. Maybe 30 years ago, you'd see some, not in today's ultras specialized QH arenas.

Kementari
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:39 PM
As others have said, neither (when trained correctly for their field) is "correct" or "incorrect." They are different.

My eventer carries himself differently in dressage than he does on cross country and somewhat differently again in stadium. That doesn't mean that he's WRONG 2/3rds of the time!

Oh, and the poll below the withers rule has to be at least 15 years old (I was in 4-H when they passed it, but I don't remember how old I was...); it's just that they decided in the past couple of years that it might be fun to actually ENFORCE it. :lol:

farmgirl88
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:47 PM
I personally think the QH world has lost what the true meaning of a hunter should be. Hunter should carry themselves forward , off the front end, and propelling forward from the hind end, covering significant amounts of ground in a single stride. the stride and way of going should be effortless. The horse should not be heavy on the forehand with its poll below the withers. if hunters actually carried themselves in this manner in the hunter field, if they tripped they would fall on their face.

Since hunters should be bred and trained as if they should exhibit the same behavior in the hunt-field. Forward, ground covering, sweeping strides the exhibit the least of amount of effort to minimize exhaustion over long distances.

when watching QH hunters go, they tend to be heavy on the forehand, many times behind the verticle, with their head and necks below the topline of the back. They show at a jog and lope more often than stretching through the forelegs and propelling forward from the hind end. Qh hunters are not trained through Forward riding. They are trained like western pleasure horses. The riders seem to be more proped on the horse, with exagerated posture. If the horses were more forward and had more elasticity in their gates, i really dont think some of the riders would be able to stay on. They just seem "perched" and dont tend to follow the horses motion as fluidly as the main h/j riders.

Even in Hunter undersaddle classes, not just o/f classes, hunters should exhibit the same qualities of that of a horse in the hunt field. Forward, ground covering, and effortless. Not behind the bridle and behind the motion, sucked back, and collected.

Most judges at the AQHA shows, i think, lack education in what a true hunter should be, and they tend to know a lot more about the western dicipline- this is how the favoring of AQHA hunters who went like western pleasure horses began. These judges liked the horses who went more like western horses, and therefore the trend began.

farmgirl88
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:59 PM
i looked at this horse before finally making my decision to buy my OTTB, and for other reasons decided not to take a chance on this horse, and this is what a AQHA hunter should be in my eyes...

hes a very good jumper, could be more forward, but hes collected, and quiet, but not behind the motion. he shows a rythmic stride, without being too slow or too forward while still making it look effortless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDEu264vA34&feature=related

findeight
Apr. 1, 2009, 02:20 PM
The AQHA never had the "true meaning" of Hunter in mind when they started offering AQHA classes in a hunt seat saddle for AQHA registered horses.

They are first and foremost QHs bred to that standard that also can do some of the Hunter stuff...and I am sure there are a few permanent registered AQHA (not appendix) Field Hunters out there chasing the hounds-because they are quiet and will try anything for you. But it is not and never has been the breed of choice.

Posted before, I saw Wrapped in Red win the HUS at Congress the same year he won at Indoors and everywhere else...and he was loudly booed as "too fast", "too high in front" and "off type".

It's just not the emphasis of the breed. Some can do it but it's not a priority for most breeders to produce actual Hunters that jump when the big money is elsewhere.

Plumcreek
Apr. 1, 2009, 02:22 PM
Here are examples of what is winning today at top levels of AQHA. This is the same horse/rider in:
working hunter..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G6W4MLQeks&feature=related

Flat equitation pattern...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZPeVaCtQQ8

and the rail portion of the flat equitation....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgbjfZZUR30

dags
Apr. 1, 2009, 02:52 PM
Here are examples of what is winning today at top levels of AQHA. This is the same horse/rider in:
working hunter..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G6W4MLQeks&feature=related

Flat equitation pattern...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZPeVaCtQQ8

and the rail portion of the flat equitation....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgbjfZZUR30

Quarter horses must be the new rust breeches . . .

So, for this one. Honest evaluation, there's just no reach in the shoulder. Aside from the unavoidable shortness in stride this produces, he can't even land in balance from a fence because there is sooo much head and neck in front of him. Really, I love a quarter horse for the reasons they are quarter horses- good brained working animals. But in this video I see an orange when I'm looking for an apple. Or vice versa, whichever way you want to work the analogy.

And, the tactics of training and what it produces is a separate arguement entirely. This animal looks well trained (despite poll being way too low in one of the eq videos). Take it to a HJ trainer to prep for real HJ competition and they might fix its jump a little, and get a little more length out of the stride, but they won't be able to magically transform it into a Working Hunter. The conformation's not there. The one's who do have the angles to get the step and stride have so much TB blood in them I think it only proves the point that the otherwise AWESOME quarter horse simply doesn't have the body build that lends itself to A Circuit competition.

What was the question? :D

Plumcreek
Apr. 1, 2009, 04:11 PM
Dags, I have to agree with you. This is a really nice homebred gelding with his amateur owner riding. They have won a lot (anad some in USEF A, I believe) on pleasant presentation, precision and good horsemanship from the owner. I know there are a some QHs that absolutely have the shoulder and stride for USEF AA competition. I owned one, and he could not fit even his slowest lope stride into QH rail or pattern classes. I think he was an orange, with apple papers.

TrotTrotPumpkn
Apr. 1, 2009, 04:17 PM
Sincere question--How much TB blood can these quarter horses have? For example, what is the percentage of TB blood in the bay shown in the video?

GoshenNY
Apr. 1, 2009, 04:41 PM
Thank you for the back up Find Eight;

You are very correct about the stallions listed. You don't breed a reiner and try to turn it HUS, you don't breed a wp and try to turn it into reiner.

RoyaL Chick Olena is going strong, but his notable get are reiners. Some do go into the working cow horse divisions, but with the economy, I don't see too many ppl doubling up on both divisions.

Like my favorite cross is a hony, I have two notable stallions to breed my -self for my want, but it is sort of foolhardy to do so as there is no market for that horse,, QH breeders are more specific and want to sell that long yearing prospect.
Ruggard Lark was a very nice horse but he did not produce large, he was sort of a novelty; good pr rep for the breed, but die hard QH breeders bred to other stallions like Investment Asset.
I have ridden some reiners that placed at the congress, along with some very well know ROM western pleasure horses, I took on a prospect that I got at a Jenning sale, I wanted to show her at Congress but she got sold as a USEF Jr Hunter for enough money to continue my pony breeding adiction. But all of those horses were very different.

J

Plumcreek
Apr. 1, 2009, 04:45 PM
Appx. QHs can have any amount of TB blood (7/8 is common) as long as one parent had a permanent registration number. A registration number can be EARNED by an appx. QH horse thru competition by winning 10 points.

I guess the main factor in all this is that exhibitors and breeders concentrate on producing what wins in the show ring. In QH, attributes rewarded are good movement incorporating MANNERS , no mistakes, and ...consistancy, above all else. In USEF, the movement, jump quality, the performance matters more and inconsequential boo boos are not cause for elimination, just taken into account. Training practices for those divergent goals would HAVE to be different.

I showed the horse referenced in my above post at 3 years in the hack, in one USEF A Baby Green and one AQHA Junior horse HUS class. In the USEF class he was third out of 14 good horses. In that class, he had scooted briefly when crowded behind, shied a bit around a jump standard, and generally made baby errors. I (as rider) asked my trainer how the judge had missed all those transgressions, and she said judge absolutely had seen them, but it was a baby horse class and baby mistakes were overlooked in favor of good quality. So the next weekend he did about the same in the AQHA Junior HUS class. The judge came up during the line up and said "I REALLY like this horse, but he needs to be lot more broke before I would be able to have him place high. We got the gate. So, apples and oranges.

KristieBee
Apr. 1, 2009, 05:13 PM
for the most part, i agree with the apples/oranges folks. a good AQHA hunter is not necessarily a good USEF hunter. the judges just want different things.

but lately i've been spending a lot of time with friends who do the AQHA circuit, mostly WP and other western disciplines. and i am really beginning to appreciate the "western" and "QH" ways of doing things. i would love it if our hunters were expected to behave like QH's are. there is no "oh well he doesn't LIKE when i brush him there/picking up his feet/that end of the arena/jumps that are blue...etc." if it doesn't hurt the horse, he's expected to just deal with things that we often 'let' our hunters spook and fuss over. they're expected to stand until told to go, either on the ground or under saddle. i'm just loving the attitude towards the horses that when they're around people, they're on the job, and there is no time for nonsense or silliness.

riding wise, if you sit on a well-trained, properly muscled WP horse, it's OBVIOUS that they carry themselves 'correctly' by any standard. you feel that back round up, and the hind end drop down and under to power them forward. even though they go a lot slower than we're used to, and have a lower neckset, the good ones don't plop around on the forehand. to go slow the correct way takes just as much conditioning as forward.

that said... i think both disciplines have things to learn from each other, and i'm always glad to be exposed to something i'm unfamiliar with!


cheers, cheers, cheers. couldn't agree more.

i'm assuming the qh person who made the original comment the op referenced was referring to hunters that cruise around the ring with hind ends trailing and totally inverted. and if that is what that person was referring to - i have to say they had a point.

Chancensassy
Apr. 1, 2009, 06:47 PM
If anyone was in Ocala, they probably watched David Connors, Bill Ellis, Linda Caruthers and other trainers that do both "A" circuit Hunters and AQHA Hunters, same horses, same training, winning or being regularly in the ribbons. Not just in fence classes but under saddle.

Just because people don't tell you what breed they are riding (most are 1/2 T-bred, anyway) doesn't mean that they are ashamed of riding an American Warmblood.

My trainer is best friends with an upstate New York trainer she is riding one of my favorite horses, and he, along with his owners' other QH's, are amazing. We regularly see them at Hunter shows. Deadly lead changes, really broke and riding in a rubber snaffle.

AGRHJRider
Apr. 1, 2009, 08:28 PM
Most judges at the AQHA shows, i think, lack education in what a true hunter should be, and they tend to know a lot more about the western dicipline- this is how the favoring of AQHA hunters who went like western pleasure horses began. These judges liked the horses who went more like western horses, and therefore the trend began.

Amen Sistah! lol

FliteQH
Apr. 1, 2009, 09:51 PM
Posts like these are so repetitive, it drives me nuts.

I do both USEF & have some customers doing the HUS and Eq at the breed shows. I have also shown NRHA and loved it. Occasionally, I get a ride on Western Pleasure horse.

My opinion is that I encourage everyone to try these different disciplines (just take a lesson or 2) on a good quality animal for its discipline. It really is a neat experience. I love what I have learned from doing these different types of riding and that is what riding should be about... trying things and learning from them.

Heineken
Apr. 1, 2009, 10:23 PM
Plum...thanks for the video. Now I'm DYING to show at Congress again!! I miss my AQHA!

That said, when I got my first horse I blew off the flatwork and just went and showed...we won a lot. Then, I got another horse, a TOTALLY broke, awesome AQHA horse who also showed and won on the AHSA circuit in the Children's and the Small Juniors.

When I got my most recent OTTB I made sure he was "broke like a QH" on the flat. He stops, stands, backs and does AMAZING eq patterns (for fun). There is something to be said for a well broke horse on the flat and I'll never have one without the "QH buttons" installed again!

findeight
Apr. 2, 2009, 10:57 AM
RoyaL Chick Olena is going strong, but his notable get are reiners. Some do go into the working cow horse divisions, but with the economy, I don't see too many ppl doubling up on both divisions.


Actually, and interestingly, specialization is even occuring in these somewhat related divisions and it's getting to be a different type horse. The Reiner is going to be lower in the front, they do love the ultra low poll on the stops with them just about bent in half at the shoulder to keep both ends down. All they do is the dry work. The WCH has to do a dry pattern, cut a cow from a group and then work a single cow (they cannot select) in a variation on the dry work pattern, figure eights, run down the fence and turn back and so forth.

WCH people (as my connections are) want them a little more athletic, not so low in front and that is meaning a different kind of shoulder and a little more upright in front...they also say the Reiners have created a whole different horse with that low headed stop that scores so well (that's the polite translation of what they say).

Whatever...point being it's conformation for the specific job and training for that job. And that can be very different depending on the job, even within a breed.

Different job? Different conformation and different definition of "broke".

GoshenNY
Apr. 2, 2009, 03:28 PM
Whatever...point being it's conformation for the specific job and training for that job. And that can be very different depending on the job, even within a breed.

Different job? Different conformation and different definition of "broke".
__________________


So true, findeight

Regards,
J

mypaintwattie
Apr. 3, 2009, 01:29 AM
There are horses out there that win at both the AA H/J shows AND the very big QH shows in the hunters. The Doddriges' (sp?) on the west coast have several QH's and win a ton in both circuits with them. The daughter also has several nice WB's and wins a ton on them. So it is possible to be successful in BOTH worlds.

But I do agree that the majority of the QH hunters from the QH world would be lost in the H/J world but certainly not all.

They are at my barn- very nice family. The 3 QH's they have you would not know they were QH's by looking at them.

Personally, I have moved from a BNT H/J barn to a smaller QH/Paint all-around barn. I love the atmosphere of the breed shows, and will show my paint in whatever she can do: be it only the breed shows or both. I do like the training style- dead broke no matter what the situation. I think it also depends on the horse, conformation, training, and rider. Some can make the crossover- some cant. I have a friend with an older foundation style QH (think big butt) who was trained in reining. After 6 months, they are now schooling 2nd level dressage.

Ozone
Apr. 3, 2009, 10:55 AM
for the most part, i agree with the apples/oranges folks. a good AQHA hunter is not necessarily a good USEF hunter. the judges just want different things.




Yes very true because the USEF judge is basis and thinks only Melckenburgs, Dutchies, Selle's, and TB's make the grade. No place for a QH to be obviously.

AQHA... they are called the AQHA for a reason. Shows for QH's.

Apples and Oranges to a degree. I personally know of a QH that can hold the company of the WB ... yes, I own him.

However, if he shows at QH shows he would get boo-ed out of the ring because he is not your AQHA trained breed.

I don't understand the comparison with this thread?

mvp
Apr. 3, 2009, 11:19 AM
Yes, there are horses of all breeds that can cross the USEF/AQHA border.

My DWB smoked a bunch of QHs and other breeds in a versatility class at a local show (can't go farther than this, right?). According to the judge who spoke to me later, he won because he was broke in both the English and Western senses of the word. I do think the Western people expect a better broke horse than do the USEF hunter people, so I took that as a great compliment coming from a Western judge.

She also thought he had a beautiful canter. I put his nose right down so that his ears were just a bit higher than his withers and he cruised along in gaits that I consider heinously behind my leg. He had that canter, even imitating a peanut roller, because the horse has been ridden like a dressage horse-- from back to front-- his whole life. He has no idea that you are allowed to drop your shoulders and pull rather than push even if your head is way low. At the very top of the Western world, they want this as well. It's just really, really hard to teach horses and to express or demonstrate to people.

So I don't think the crucial difference between good QH HUS and USEF Hunters are breed or conformation, but how the horses are taught to go. You will find good and bad everywhere.

seeuatx
Apr. 3, 2009, 12:18 PM
I generally think there is something to be said for a "QH Broke" horse. I don't mean anything like "spur stop", or other trendy over the top buttons. I mean, pick up the lead I am asking for, spooking is done in place... no spinning and bolting necessary (and since I am sitting on my couch in a back brace because of a spin/bolt/buck spooking incident... I *reeeaaaalllly* like this one), they TIE... usually anywhere, They have good brakes, good steering, etc., etc.

I love, love, love my OTTB's... but with current injuries and discovering that I am mortal, next horse will probably be a QH of the appendix variety. Actually I already have my heart set of a 4 y/o that is 90% TB (yes I did the math, I am a geek) just no money to buy with.

The only thing that drives me nuts is the head set... but heck, I see that same sort of crap on the local dressage scene. At least the QH hunters that actually jump have level heads. I would love to see a tad bit more pace... but on the other hand, that pace is perfectly appropriate for a nervous ammy or junior and would pin in the lower heights. Plus, it is easy enough to kick a horse on and open the stride up a bit at the regular hunter shows.

[edit]

Plumcreek
Apr. 3, 2009, 12:27 PM
mvp , this is a very good post. Any discipline has top competition where watching the riders is enjoyable, and the lower levels where some are copying the look without knowing how to achieve it and watching is painful.

In top AQHA competition, your horse had better be in front of your leg, or you won't win much. If the haunches are driving deep enough and the withers ar elevated, the head and neck can be put wherever the rider wants and the horse has been trained to understand. Training them back to front is basic good horsemanship.

One of the problems with AQHA is their age categories which heavily rewards 2 & 3 year old futurity horses. A 4 year old must show in the Maturity class. When your horse turns 6, it must show in the Senior- all ages - division against seasoned horses. So rushing them, unfortunately, is built into that system that was developed 50 years ago mostly for cattle events, and for foundation bred horses that mature much earlier than horses with much TB in them. The raising of the Senior age group to 6 and up just changed - maybe 8 years ago? - it used to be 5 and up was a senior horse. When I show in USEF Baby Green, those "babies" are 6-8 years old.

mvp
Apr. 3, 2009, 01:03 PM
You guys add a lot to this thread!

Plumcreek: Thanks for the video of a QH doing both jobs-- even being the equitation packer. Good for him! So don't tell me the breed can't be athletic and useful or that Western people can't make a broke horse. I'd like to ride one that pleasant and versatile.... and then ground tie him afterward.

Seeuatx: You make a really good point about the AQHA world rushing these kind, tractable horses along and inviting people to take short cuts that leave them incorrect. I think it takes at least a couple of years to create a horse that understands self-carriage and is also strong enough to do it. Quarter horses-- in general-- have such lovely minds that you can really abuse and rush them in a way you might not with a hotter TB or a WB that says "No!" in his own recalcitrant, effective way.

Of course, futurities have come to the USEF world, too. People are jumping three-year-olds, and wrecking many along the way who would have done plenty over the course of their career had they had a slower start. If the H/J people do this long enough, or make futurities a driving force in their neck of the show world, we should not be surprised if short-cuts become the expectation in the USEF Hunter scene too.

The saddest thing to me is that the tractable QH mind puts these horses at risk in the way that our less-"user friendly" USEF breeds do not.

chawley
Apr. 3, 2009, 01:17 PM
When I got my most recent OTTB I made sure he was "broke like a QH" on the flat. He stops, stands, backs and does AMAZING eq patterns (for fun). There is something to be said for a well broke horse on the flat and I'll never have one without the "QH buttons" installed again!


I trained my TB hunter this way and it gives us a huge edge in the Equit ring. My sister shows AQHA pleasure and horsemanship (she also showed hunters in both AQHA and USEF), and she's taught me lots about installing these so called QH buttons! :)

luvs2ridewbs
Apr. 3, 2009, 01:40 PM
I'd like to know how the AQHA people "train" away the spook. Personally, I just assume the breed doesn't spook much at least not the way Tbreds and WBs can.

Plumcreek
Apr. 3, 2009, 01:56 PM
I'd like to know how the AQHA people "train" away the spook. Personally, I just assume the breed doesn't spook much at least not the way Tbreds and WBs can.

I'd like to know that also. One of my Appx. QH geldings is as spooky a snake hunter as they come - got that from his racing TB grandfather, I have heard. My mare, who has more TB blood, has no spook. It is just that the spooky ones seldom make it to the show ring as they will be wasting their entry money, big time. Even though there is no testing of stallions as in the WB world, the QH stallions are "tested" and culled by the resale market place per the dispositions of their foals, which comes to light much sooner than foals in USEF due to the QH showing at a young age..

kellyb
Apr. 3, 2009, 02:13 PM
I'd like to know how the AQHA people "train" away the spook. Personally, I just assume the breed doesn't spook much at least not the way Tbreds and WBs can.

I don't think they do. It's just that typically most QH's are a lot more laid back than your average TB. You can't train out something that wasn't there in the first place. Granted, I have had some QH's that were spooky as all get out, but the majority of the ones I have ridden just aren't the type to care enough to do so.

chawley
Apr. 3, 2009, 02:30 PM
I'd like to know how the AQHA people "train" away the spook. Personally, I just assume the breed doesn't spook much at least not the way Tbreds and WBs can.

While many QHs are pretty laid back, some can have a heck of a spook. We have one that has the worst one I've seen. The way we 'contain'ed him was by tons of ground work (he showed Showmanship successfully for years). That respect on the ground, including being voice command and body control trained, goes a long way when he's in one of his 'freak' moments because even if he's scared and wants to spin and take off, he will always whoa when you tell him too because it's so imprinted into him.

I did this with my TB too, and he never does more than lift his head when he spooks. He's not naturally spooky, but they all spook sometimes.

I was riding outside the other day and it was pretty windy. A newspaper came out of nowhere blowing right at my horse's head. Poor thing was terrified, but I said whoa firmly and he stood there square and let it hit him. He was quivering so hard, but he stayed still until it blew off. I was so proud of him.

caqh
Apr. 3, 2009, 02:46 PM
Every western trainer I have worked with has utilized the same principle: LET THEM GET OVER IT. lol. Seriously.

Example, unless a horse is legitimately being an *ABSOLUTE* spaz-attack and seriously on it's way to killing itself, we leave them where they are and let them work it out. My trainer had a horse (poor judgment on her own breeding, lol) that wasn't the brightest. He was cross-tied in an aisleway, and decided he'd had enough of being tied. He fretted and pranced and acted foolish in such a way that he ended up backwards on the cross ties. I asked my trainer if I should get him out and she said "no, he'll work it out". Once he figured out he actually couldn't go anywhere, he managed to get himself untangled and stood quietly until my trainer was ready for him. Never saw him do that again. He didn't have a single mark on him, he didn't tear up anything, no damage done.

We're about manners and obedience all the time. A lot of one's results come from expectation, i.e if I expect you to behave, there's a good chance you will (in theory, right?). We don't baby, or coddle. We harness energy for the power of good rather than evil, i.e. if you have the energy to be silly, you have the energy to be good. There is no excuse for a delayed response (we don't like to be ignored, lol). If I say "whoa" that means stop right now, not "slow down" or "stop in a few strides". You can teach a horse anything with enough repetition and reinforcement. And for the record/for what it's worth, I've never ridden with a trainer that had (or encouraged) me to ride heavy handed, or in spurs, or with a crazy bit, or any combination thereof. As we like to say "sweat makes them smarter".

Whenever I would ask my h/j friends why they didn't instill such "buttons" I'd usually get a response of "it takes too long" (training wise) or "we don't really need that". I can't speak to what a USEF judge would reward on an eq test, for example (stop on a dime 1 stride after landing, vs asking during strides 1 and 2 and getting it on 3?? just an example, I'm not an eq rider, lol), but there's nothing nicer than a horse knows how to listen and obey.

I could go on and on but this post is already long enough...lol...

caradino
Apr. 3, 2009, 02:54 PM
Every western trainer I have worked with has utilized the same principle: LET THEM GET OVER IT. lol. Seriously.

Example, unless a horse is legitimately being an *ABSOLUTE* spaz-attack and seriously on it's way to killing itself, we leave them where they are and let them work it out. My trainer had a horse (poor judgment on her own breeding, lol) that wasn't the brightest. He was cross-tied in an aisleway, and decided he'd had enough of being tied. He fretted and pranced and acted foolish in such a way that he ended up backwards on the cross ties. I asked my trainer if I should get him out and she said "no, he'll work it out". Once he figured out he actually couldn't go anywhere, he managed to get himself untangled and stood quietly until my trainer was ready for him. Never saw him do that again. He didn't have a single mark on him, he didn't tear up anything, no damage done.

We're about manners and obedience all the time. A lot of one's results come from expectation, i.e if I expect you to behave, there's a good chance you will (in theory, right?). We don't baby, or coddle. We harness energy for the power of good rather than evil, i.e. if you have the energy to be silly, you have the energy to be good. There is no excuse for a delayed response (we don't like to be ignored, lol). If I say "whoa" that means stop right now, not "slow down" or "stop in a few strides". You can teach a horse anything with enough repetition and reinforcement. And for the record/for what it's worth, I've never ridden with a trainer that had (or encouraged) me to ride heavy handed, or in spurs, or with a crazy bit, or any combination thereof. As we like to say "sweat makes them smarter".

Whenever I would ask my h/j friends why they didn't instill such "buttons" I'd usually get a response of "it takes too long" (training wise) or "we don't really need that". I can't speak to what a USEF judge would reward on an eq test, for example (stop on a dime 1 stride after landing, vs asking during strides 1 and 2 and getting it on 3?? just an example, I'm not an eq rider, lol), but there's nothing nicer than a horse knows how to listen and obey.

I could go on and on but this post is already long enough...lol...

:yes: this is what i love about my western friends and their horses!

although i do find that only learning to ride and handle horses that are super duper broke can sometimes lead to people not knowing what to do with a hot/spooky/misbehaving horse.

chawley
Apr. 3, 2009, 03:03 PM
Every western trainer I have worked with has utilized the same principle: LET THEM GET OVER IT. lol. Seriously.

Example, unless a horse is legitimately being an *ABSOLUTE* spaz-attack and seriously on it's way to killing itself, we leave them where they are and let them work it out. My trainer had a horse (poor judgment on her own breeding, lol) that wasn't the brightest. He was cross-tied in an aisleway, and decided he'd had enough of being tied. He fretted and pranced and acted foolish in such a way that he ended up backwards on the cross ties. I asked my trainer if I should get him out and she said "no, he'll work it out". Once he figured out he actually couldn't go anywhere, he managed to get himself untangled and stood quietly until my trainer was ready for him. Never saw him do that again. He didn't have a single mark on him, he didn't tear up anything, no damage done.

...


I do agree with everything you said. I will add, having bred, raised, and trained many TBs, you can't always let them work it out. Some can be left there and are smart enough to not hurt themselves, while others lose their minds and will do serious damage. I think when dealing with a hotter horse, it's better to assess the individual and then put them in situations where they can figure it out without hurting themselves. One of the things we've done a lot is to teach them to tie in a stall where they can't fly backwards and flip over. The wall is a reminder to them and keeps them from doing anything too crazy. When my horse was 2 years old, he decided that he didn't need to tie, stand still, or do anything else I was asking of him. I tied him in his stall (w/ only water) and pulled up a chair. We stayed there for 6 hours through many temper tantrums, etc. Finally, he raised his flag and we've never had a problem to this day (he's 16 now). He ties, stands still, ground ties, etc. and there's never an argument. But, had I done this with him in a cross tie or open area or whatever, I think he would have hurt himself as upset as he got.

My mom has an old saying about training and breaking colts: "You better have more time than they do, and they have all the time in the world." So true!

caqh
Apr. 3, 2009, 03:10 PM
:yes: this is what i love about my western friends and their horses!

although i do find that only learning to ride and handle horses that are super duper broke can sometimes lead to people not knowing what to do with a hot/spooky/misbehaving horse.

I feel fortunate that my horse life started off as a barn brat that did everything *except* ride, so I understand what goes into "gettin' 'em broke!". When I was still teaching, I did have a few riders that only knew what it was like to handle the uber quiet ones, so I'd put them on the "work-in-progress" horses to learn how to not accept bs. :-) Again, it was all about expectation: "So what if he spooks at the poles in the corner! Go to that corner, work his brain, and he'll forget they're even there!" My riders learned to expect obedience, and anything else was considered rude and would be corrected. No excuses. Ever. But the key to that rule is not setting them up to fail (the correction for a horse learning to get with the program is very different than the correction for the horse that actually knows better and is being a jerk, lol).

When I was still riding for my trainer and she'd have me schooling something, the very first thing I did once we started walking was test the brakes. If it tried to go through my hand on a simple walk-halt transition, I'd school that first (then trot/jog-halt, etc) until I felt sure it had the idea. Then and only then did we address the actual problem (sticky leads, heavy on the forehand, etc etc). I figured if it learned nothing else from our schooling session, it would hit the brakes when told.

Though my knowledge base is almost exclusively in western, training wise, I do ride english (currently lesson with a h/j barn) and my number 1 pet peeve is the lack of brakes (at least on the school horses)!!!!! Why, oh why, must I wait several strides to get a canter-halt transition? lol.

caqh
Apr. 3, 2009, 03:20 PM
I do agree with everything you said. I will add, having bred, raised, and trained many TBs, you can't always let them work it out. Some can be left there and are smart enough to not hurt themselves, while others lose their minds and will do serious damage. I think when dealing with a hotter horse, it's better to assess the individual and then put them in situations where they can figure it out without hurting themselves. One of the things we've done a lot is to teach them to tie in a stall where they can't fly backwards and flip over. The wall is a reminder to them and keeps them from doing anything too crazy. When my horse was 2 years old, he decided that he didn't need to tie, stand still, or do anything else I was asking of him. I tied him in his stall (w/ only water) and pulled up a chair. We stayed there for 6 hours through many temper tantrums, etc. Finally, he raised his flag and we've never had a problem to this day (he's 16 now). He ties, stands still, ground ties, etc. and there's never an argument. But, had I done this with him in a cross tie or open area or whatever, I think he would have hurt himself as upset as he got.

My mom has an old saying about training and breaking colts: "You better have more time than they do, and they have all the time in the world." So true!

My example worked with that particular horse because we already knew how his brain worked, if that makes sense. As a general rule I don't like cross-tying in aisleways for that reason (the flip/serious damage factor) but my example was a situation that I wasn't fully in control of, and my trainer definitely knew what was up. I hope to own an OTTB one day, and there's no way I'd try that with it, but I'm pretty sure he'll spend some quality time with random things in his stall (or round pen)...and a western trainer, lol.

I love the "tied him and pulled up a chair"! I think that for a lot of horses, what's lacking is the patience in training certain things. Not many people will take the time to "pull up a chair" and would rather learn to just deal with the problem. I'm a "pull up a chair" type too. :-)

mvp
Apr. 3, 2009, 03:47 PM
I don't think there is a TB WB QH mind per se. There is more variability within each breed than between them. I also think the hot heads of any sort can be taught to think first and run later. It just takes patience and intelligence on the trainer's part.

If you set up a situation that is simple enough, any horse with an ounce of self-preservation will "work it out" as the Western world advocates. I want a horse who has been taught from the beginning to think and take some responsibility for how his life goes. It makes my job as rider and trainer so much easier and more rewarding.

One good cowboy I knew who regularly broke and "fixed" warmbloods explained that the spookier the horse, the more he flapped equipment around while tacking up. He did the same while riding. The job got more complicated when the horse had enough extra brain cells to stop paying attention to him. In short order, with no Majik or violence, he got the stupidest, hottest, work-avoiding-est spookers to look for instruction from him. And (even better) he'd explain all this to you so you could ride and train just as well as he did.

That's why I like the western world.

damecheval
Apr. 3, 2009, 03:53 PM
There are a lot of problems with training in both disicplines. For one, there are a lot of horses in USEF shows that don't do their lead changes correctly, and don't bend correctly either. The QH world deffintaly has it's peanut rollers, though. However, there are some very nice quarter horses that can do both. My sister's horse for example, isn't on the forehand and has a very nice headset that judges from both circuits seem to like. She's not really broke to death, she's actually kind of a spaz sometimes. She jumps very nicely, has square knees and knows her changes. She bends well, too. Bottom line, there are horses that can do both, just as there are horses on both sides of the fence that are trained well and correctly, and others that are trainer not-so-well. Unfortunately, I've seen plenty more quarter horses these days that aren't trained very well...

PolarPony
Apr. 3, 2009, 03:59 PM
[I]Like I told someone else before, you can't compare apples and oranges. You can have the prettiest, juciest, most perfect orange in the world, but no matter how wonderful it is, it still makes a shitty apple.

That made my day. Mostly because it's totally true.

I also agree with the people who said that the current hunters could use more flat work. I have a friend with a TB, not a QH, but she is constantly schooling on the flat and it shows in her jumping rounds.

chawley
Apr. 3, 2009, 04:01 PM
My example worked with that particular horse because we already knew how his brain worked, if that makes sense. As a general rule I don't like cross-tying in aisleways for that reason (the flip/serious damage factor) but my example was a situation that I wasn't fully in control of, and my trainer definitely knew what was up. I hope to own an OTTB one day, and there's no way I'd try that with it, but I'm pretty sure he'll spend some quality time with random things in his stall (or round pen)...and a western trainer, lol.

I love the "tied him and pulled up a chair"! I think that for a lot of horses, what's lacking is the patience in training certain things. Not many people will take the time to "pull up a chair" and would rather learn to just deal with the problem. I'm a "pull up a chair" type too. :-)


You will do great with an OTTB! If you take the necessary time with them, they tend to be the most wonderful horses. I've retrained many of them over the years and really enjoyed it. The nice thing about them is for the most part they are pretty good about standing for the farrier, wrapping, etc. Most of them I have found don't spook a lot because they've seen so much too. I hope you get to do that - good luck!

chawley
Apr. 3, 2009, 04:04 PM
There are a lot of problems with training in both disicplines. For one, there are a lot of horses in USEF shows that don't do their lead changes correctly, and don't bend correctly either. The QH world deffintaly has it's peanut rollers, though. However, there are some very nice quarter horses that can do both. My sister's horse for example, isn't on the forehand and has a very nice headset that judges from both circuits seem to like. She's not really broke to death, she's actually kind of a spaz sometimes. She jumps very nicely, has square knees and knows her changes. She bends well, too. Bottom line, there are horses that can do both, just as there are horses on both sides of the fence that are trained well and correctly, and others that are trainer not-so-well. Unfortunately, I've seen plenty more quarter horses these days that aren't trained very well...

Having done hunters my whole life, but having a sister who shows AQHA, I agree with you. The good hunter trainers take the time and teach proper bending, carriage, leads, etc. But, I've seen a lot of people training that have no business doing so and as a result, the horses going through their system aren't brought along correctly. As you said, it's like that in ever sport.

Kementari
Apr. 3, 2009, 04:43 PM
Every western trainer I have worked with has utilized the same principle: LET THEM GET OVER IT. lol. Seriously.

I own an Arab and a TB (though I've worked with QHs), and despite the calls the the contrary, this is RIGHT ON for the hotter breeds, too.

When my Arab was a baby, she was tied and got a leg over the leadline (a combo of her being tied on the low side of OK and babies just being able to do the darndest things ;)). I saw it, and saw that she wasn't in danger of breaking a leg (ie, the leadline wasn't wrapped around her or stuck on her lower leg), and just kept an eye on her. A couple of people said, "Oh my God! Your horse is tangled!" and I said, "I know. She needs to learn what to do in the situation now while it's minor." And you know what? She was irritated for a few minutes, and then figured out that it worked best to just stand quietly and wait.

Same thing happened hand grazing her when she stepped on the leadline: "Oh no! Your horse is standing on her lead!" Yup, she is. And she's going to sit there and fight it out with her own foot until she works out that the solution is to calmly pick up said foot and put it down on solid ground. Which is, for the record, precisely what she did.

Horses, in the course of everyday life, get tangled (REALLY tangled, even, as opposed to just a lead in the wrong place). They step on leads when we turn around for half a second to close the gate. And if the first few times you just let them work it out for themselves (in a supervised setting), the vast majority of them make saner, safer citizens in the end. :yes:

But the trainer has to have two things: first, the ability to NOT coddle a horse (which may sound funny, but is true), and second, the time to actually sit there and wait it out (whether under saddle or on the ground). Lots of people don't have one or both of those things.

(Same techinique goes for spooking, too: we're going to keep right on doing whatever it was we were doing, regardless. And a) it's going to be easier if you (horse) aren't spooking, and b) you (horse) are going to learn that the tarp in the corner just isn't that scary after all, because no matter how many times we go by it, my attitude never changes and it NEVER jumps out and bites you.)

chawley
Apr. 3, 2009, 05:06 PM
I own an Arab and a TB (though I've worked with QHs), and despite the calls the the contrary, this is RIGHT ON for the hotter breeds, too.

.)

Not sure if you were referring to my post, but I wanted to clarify. It agree completely with the concept, but feel it's sometimes best to place a hotter horse in a situation where they can figure it out without killing themselves.

Kementari
Apr. 3, 2009, 05:24 PM
Not sure if you were referring to my post, but I wanted to clarify. It agree completely with the concept, but feel it's sometimes best to place a hotter horse in a situation where they can figure it out without killing themselves.

I wasn't referring to anyone specifically (and I could have worded it better ;)), but more to the "Well you can do that with a QH because they are calm to start with, but never with a [insert breed here]" idea, which is often (not always - well, maybe always when it comes to blanket statements about breed ;)) a cop-out and certainly also not exclusive to this forum!

I think a lot of people would be surprised what you CAN do with a hotter horse and have them survive unscathed and having learned something - but on the other hand, it is most definitely important to KNOW your horse, too. There are many, many things that I would do/have done with my TB that I wouldn't dream of doing with my Arab (yet, anyway) just because I know each of their limits. I push those limits in order to teach them new things and improve their attitudes (well, mostly the Arab, as she's still young - the TB is 23 and pretty much BTDT, so he doesn't have as much to learn ;)), but always bearing in mind how FAR I can push before it becomes a disaster. :yes:

mew
Apr. 3, 2009, 05:40 PM
You will do great with an OTTB! If you take the necessary time with them, they tend to be the most wonderful horses. I've retrained many of them over the years and really enjoyed it. The nice thing about them is for the most part they are pretty good about standing for the farrier, wrapping, etc. Most of them I have found don't spook a lot because they've seen so much too. I hope you get to do that - good luck!

I was a QH person though and though showed them on both the circuit and A shows. My grey wasn't a GP horse or anything close. But he was amazing at the lower hunters and the 3'6 jumpers and above all was a *saint* Leave from any distance jump anything with a sack of potatoes (or me on this back) He knew his job to the point that he finished a course after bucking me off at a show (hunters finished the last diagonal line) the judge said had i stayed with him he would have won.

For learning to ride at 3'6 and under not much beats a good QH not every one can afford that said of a wb but needs a saint to learn to see distances. To gain confidence before they are ready to move up onto another horse or level.

That said I have an OTTB right now who while being touchy about a lot of things is well on his way to being a packer under saddle. And he is the exact same if you ride him every day or every month. OTTBS are wonderful horses but they can have more touchy-ness than most QH's

chawley
Apr. 3, 2009, 05:52 PM
I wasn't referring to anyone specifically (and I could have worded it better ;)), but more to the "Well you can do that with a QH because they are calm to start with, but never with a [insert breed here]" idea, which is often (not always - well, maybe always when it comes to blanket statements about breed ;)) a cop-out and certainly also not exclusive to this forum!

:

Completely agree....Stereotyping horses makes for ineffective training. Now, knowing a breed's tendancies is probably a good idea. :)

caqh
Apr. 3, 2009, 06:29 PM
I own an Arab and a TB (though I've worked with QHs), and despite the calls the the contrary, this is RIGHT ON for the hotter breeds, too.

When my Arab was a baby, she was tied and got a leg over the leadline (a combo of her being tied on the low side of OK and babies just being able to do the darndest things ;)). I saw it, and saw that she wasn't in danger of breaking a leg (ie, the leadline wasn't wrapped around her or stuck on her lower leg), and just kept an eye on her. A couple of people said, "Oh my God! Your horse is tangled!" and I said, "I know. She needs to learn what to do in the situation now while it's minor." And you know what? She was irritated for a few minutes, and then figured out that it worked best to just stand quietly and wait.

Same thing happened hand grazing her when she stepped on the leadline: "Oh no! Your horse is standing on her lead!" Yup, she is. And she's going to sit there and fight it out with her own foot until she works out that the solution is to calmly pick up said foot and put it down on solid ground. Which is, for the record, precisely what she did.

Horses, in the course of everyday life, get tangled (REALLY tangled, even, as opposed to just a lead in the wrong place). They step on leads when we turn around for half a second to close the gate. And if the first few times you just let them work it out for themselves (in a supervised setting), the vast majority of them make saner, safer citizens in the end. :yes:

But the trainer has to have two things: first, the ability to NOT coddle a horse (which may sound funny, but is true), and second, the time to actually sit there and wait it out (whether under saddle or on the ground). Lots of people don't have one or both of those things.

(Same techinique goes for spooking, too: we're going to keep right on doing whatever it was we were doing, regardless. And a) it's going to be easier if you (horse) aren't spooking, and b) you (horse) are going to learn that the tarp in the corner just isn't that scary after all, because no matter how many times we go by it, my attitude never changes and it NEVER jumps out and bites you.)

One day my trainer asked me to put her freshly gelded AQHA yearling in the round pen for a little exercise (few minutes each direction to get him moving). I pulled him out of the paddock, went to the round pen, it was in use, so I take him in the barn and put him on the crossties. He looked at me a little cock-eyed (I had never handled him before, so I think he was like "wtf are you?" lol). I did some stuff around the barn, periodically talking to him or giving him a pat on the forehead between little tasks. Round pen opens up, and in we go, etc etc. My trainer arrives at the barn and asks how he was, so I said "well I had to put him in the crossties for about 20 minutes first, but he was fine". Her eyes kinda bugged a bit, and she says "I've never put him crossties before!". So I said "well you can now!".

I've read plenty of articles on how to start a baby on crossties, so I wouldn't recommend just throwing them in there, lol. However, I didn't know he didn't know how to tie! I firmly believe that because I didn't EXPECT him to act a fool, that confidence made him feel ok. As did the frequent talking, petting, etc. And the one or two times he perked up when something "scary" occurred (wheelbarrow in the aisle, horses going to the indoor ring), I just watched him "work it out" (which ended up being straining to see what was going on and then settling back down). My trainer was never one for coddling, so I know that whenever he was handled for anything before, the expectation was that he would be civil and polite, so this was no different.

cyberbay
Apr. 3, 2009, 06:33 PM
Not so sure if western and hunters comes down to just a matter of different worlds, different expectations. All horses function the same biomechanically. And a properly moving horse is one that is moving properly biomechanically -- a greener horse in a less polished or refined way and an accomplished horse in a more complete way -- but, in each case, it's biomechanically accurate.

From what I've seen in the WP world, a horse moving with the poll below the wither and the tail flush to the rump is not a horse that is moving correctly. Why? B/c as the hind legs become more 'engaged,' the more the poll naturally rises. The tail bone floats behind. I just can't get thrilled with the WP look (or I guess the english hunter u/saddle look, if I'm saying it correctly), b/c the horse has been trained to move against his better interests and his natural abilities. To me, the good reining trainer is one whose horse's head comes up in a sliding stop, not one whose head has been trained to drop between the scapula during the slide.

Doesn't mean you don't see this same sort of stuff at Ocala or Wellington or Indio, but that's why I don't get any 'pleasure' out of WP.

Coreene
Apr. 3, 2009, 07:27 PM
Two days ago, my 17.2hh dressage horse went from the former trainer to the QH/PAINT WESTERN & ALL AROUND TRAINER.

Oliver is now working with the same trainer that BBer Mypaintwattie is working with. And he will LOVE it. It's like everyone has wisely said here, it's all about work. Sweat makes them smarter. The new trainer had never ridden a dressage horse, and Oliver never went in a western saddle until a few days ago, but this is going to be the best thing of all.

With that magic of 20/20 hindsight, what I should have done when I came home with a six year old that had spent three years standing in a field was given him to a western trainer for at least six or seven months, then switched over. So now we're doing it the other way around, and now he's having his miles and sweat put on him. Love it. Horse is going in a French link eggbutt, same as I ride him in, and a nice big stock saddle, and this can only benefit him.

And, really, at the end of the day Ollie's just taking after his mama's side of the family. Papa is one of the big Hols jumpers from The Oaks. Mama is a tiny paint mare; Saint Siemon on top, appendix on the bottom.

No, I'm not crossing over to the western world! Though I will admit to looking for a 17" Circle Y dark oil / acorn tooling / silver / buckstitching / full QH bars saddle for trail riding. How much did THAT just date me?
Giddyap!

Chancensassy
Apr. 3, 2009, 08:32 PM
I have that saddle! I'll take one million dollars for it! Good Luck!

Coreene
Apr. 3, 2009, 08:49 PM
I have that saddle! I'll take one million dollars for it! Good Luck!I have found four over the last month. They either have full QH bars but are too small, or are the right size but with semi QH bars.

It will turn up one day. I will find it. I saw one earlier today that had me doing the diner scene from When Harry Met Sally, and when I saw those fringey things on either side behind the cantle I nearly blacked out from excitement. Semi QH bars though. :(

Like I said, it will turn up one day. Then I have to find an appropriate WB sized Pimp My Ride bridle to go with it. :lol:

willowoodstables
Apr. 3, 2009, 10:57 PM
Not having read the whole thread I apologize if this has been mentioned. In breed shows I find the hunter version is has a definate different look than say a "true" hunter (shown strictly hunter say at WEF ect). They are nice versions of a hunter in their breed show but not against a WEF hunter. I come from the saddleseat world where the ASB (saddlebreds) are trying (in a good way) to find disciplines for their breed that match various owners. For example, a Hunter Saddlebred or Morgan (has classes at breed shows for owners that want to show that disciplines) IMHO are not true hunters as based on WEF criteria. BUT in their breed arena they are outstanding examples.

For instance, say I have a nice ASB who IMHO could do WEF hunters...that is where I focus my training. BUT if I have a nice ASB who doesn't cut it as a ASB Show Pleasure, I may focus his training breed standard-wise for the hunter classes. In an open hunter show..he is not the same....

Morgans I feel are in the same boat. I see pictures of winning hunter morgans and IMHO they do not look like WEF, Devon, Thermal hunters, but there is a niche for them in their breed arena. Good on breed specific horses to find various disciplines that allow for owners of that ilk to participate with a breed horse. BUT if the horse was noticed as a hunter prospect, I believe it would be geared to that arena, not the breed specific arena??

IMHO this is not a hunter..this is a morgan showing in a breed specific show under their standards as a hunter..

http://www.taylorriverfarm.com/images/stevie_worldchampionbig.jpg

Now if someone could find me a nice picture of a nice hunter on the flat to compare I would appreciate it..I found a million pictures of hunter over fences!!

In truth I love my specific breed (hackney ponies) but appreciate the disciplines that all horses can do..face it a draft horse can jump if asked. My ponies can jump like deer, but their inherited "action" does not make them hunters..jumpers yes but the very rare one has hunter movement. Each breed has a specific job it was originally bred for back in the day..draft horses to pull and work heavy, thoroughbreds..fastest wins, hackneys..pretty fancy driving horses etc etc. But each horse has the capacity to do anything we want it to, some just look way better at it.

Kim

mypaintwattie
Apr. 4, 2009, 12:33 AM
Two days ago, my 17.2hh dressage horse went from the former trainer to the QH/PAINT WESTERN & ALL AROUND TRAINER.

Oliver is now working with the same trainer that BBer Mypaintwattie is working with. And he will LOVE it. It's like everyone has wisely said here, it's all about work. Sweat makes them smarter. The new trainer had never ridden a dressage horse, and Oliver never went in a western saddle until a few days ago, but this is going to be the best thing of all.

With that magic of 20/20 hindsight, what I should have done when I came home with a six year old that had spent three years standing in a field was given him to a western trainer for at least six or seven months, then switched over. So now we're doing it the other way around, and now he's having his miles and sweat put on him. Love it. Horse is going in a French link eggbutt, same as I ride him in, and a nice big stock saddle, and this can only benefit him.

No, I'm not crossing over to the western world! Though I will admit to looking for a 17" Circle Y dark oil / acorn tooling / silver / buckstitching / full QH bars saddle for trail riding. How much did THAT just date me?
Giddyap!

And as a shout out- Ollie is very handsome in his western tack and he is loving it!! But be careful- and this is a fair warning- never say you will never cross over- I did, and look at me now:winkgrin:

Plumcreek
Apr. 4, 2009, 12:36 AM
Correne, please, no buckstitching! Acorn tooling - yes!
So now you will have to make the pilgrimage to the Congress. Everyone should do that once in their life, just to experience the thing.

What has not been mentioned is that QHs start to be tied as yearlings (even weanlings) , before they get enough body weight to do serious injury to themselves. If people waited until QHs were 3 and weighed 1000 pounds, or more, like a 3 year old TB-WB starting training, the outcomes would be similar.

Coreene
Apr. 4, 2009, 02:15 AM
Okay, so I could skip the buckstitching, but lots of silver. Mypaintwattie, I forgot to ask you to snap a pic, I have yet to see him cowboy-ized - I am so looking forward to having a horse with good western manners. :sadsmile:

SmileItLooksGoodOnYou
Apr. 4, 2009, 06:52 AM
Just tell them to go get their horse and put him in the class.

Then go get a cup of coffee and forget it.

CSSJR

That's what I would have done.

I can see the frustration of someone telling you that a QH would kick butt in a good company in the Jr's. I've done APHA and AQHA judging contests and can pick a nice HUS horse easily. But I have real doubts about most of those horses jumping a course at 3'6" square.

Parrotnutz
Apr. 4, 2009, 11:22 AM
Yes very true because the USEF judge is basis and thinks only Melckenburgs, Dutchies, Selle's, and TB's make the grade. No place for a QH to be obviously.

AQHA... they are called the AQHA for a reason. Shows for QH's.

Apples and Oranges to a degree. I personally know of a QH that can hold the company of the WB ... yes, I own him.

However, if he shows at QH shows he would get boo-ed out of the ring because he is not your AQHA trained breed.

I don't understand the comparison with this thread?

And I own 2 :D
My mare, at 3 showed AQHA.....with her former owner....she either won the class or didn't place, depending on the judge, because she was a bigger mover than they liked. I bought her and as an over fence horse she is awesome! She can walk into a ring of WB's and place 1st.....but then I always get the question....what is her breeding oldenburg/Tb cross? I giggle and then tell them her name......that says it all,,,"Sheza Snappy Gator"

superpony123
Apr. 4, 2009, 11:59 AM
Don't forget that the QH woman is taught to have her QH's moving in the way that they do at their breed shows, and while that is incorrect in HJ world, it's totally correct in theirs. Therefore, if shes winning in QH hunter classes, she would probably think she can win in a HJ class too. (it's possible of course but unlikely for a peanutroller to do well in HJ land) We think our top hunter movers are great but they obviously dont think so.

That being said, i DO think HJ hunters with good movement move a lot nicer than a QH peanut roller, but that's my opinion, just like the QH woman thinks her QH is the best mover.

However it's not to say that there arent QH's in the hunter world that have been trained as hunters and jumpers that do well. My first pony was a quarter pony, and he was a lovely little mover and jumper. Had a big ugly head (okay, not ugly, but it looked pretty funny. we called it a dinosaur head) and a stocky body but he got the job done and was the perfect lower-level pony (beginners, short stirrup, etc.). He's now in 1st place in a local hunter circuit for mini stirrup and beginner eq with this little girl from my barn. When i showed him years ago, we won hack classes with a ton of entries, too.

Another girl from my barn has an appendix qh and he's an amazing child/adult jumper and also does level 4. she has another horse that she does bigger stuff with (like level 5 +) but hes a gargantuan WB. but still, her appendix is a great jumper!

Flash44
Apr. 4, 2009, 02:04 PM
My son has a pinto Chincoteague pony who is a beautiful mover. She has mostly been showing Western, but we don't let her shuffle around the ring, she actually takes steps that can be measured in feet, not inches. Her lope is also a true 3 beat gait that actually covers a little ground. She's always done very well in WP, even against QHs with QH judges. Here are some pics -

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/565689791cRBLkI?start=0

And most of her training has come from the kid, not a pro.

Coreene
Apr. 9, 2009, 03:05 AM
Quick bump to say the western people on this thread are so right. My big fat dressage WB is having the time of his life with a talented young western/all l around trainer. He's supple, relaxed, forward and happy. It's doing wonders for him! :yes:

ccoronios
Apr. 10, 2009, 05:18 PM
Here's a link to what comes up when you google "AQHA western pleasure photos" - most, obviously, taken at shows. The rulebook can say whatever the H#!! it wants about poll/withers - but the pictures show what wins.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&rlz=1T4DMUS_enUS268US271&um=1&sa=1&q=AQHA+western+pleasure+photos&aq=f&oq=

Yes, there's a world of difference between WP/HUS and HOF - and those differences are more like apples and spinach.

The QH - by itself - is a versatile, capable horse. What has been done to it in the name of showing is appalling.

Oh - in case ANYONE wonders - that's IMO.

Carol

Plumcreek
Apr. 10, 2009, 05:38 PM
Here's a link to what comes up when you google "AQHA western pleasure photos" - most, obviously, taken at shows. The rulebook can say whatever the H#!! it wants about poll/withers - but the pictures show what wins.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&rlz=1T4DMUS_enUS268US271&um=1&sa=1&q=AQHA+western+pleasure+photos&aq=f&oq=

Yes, there's a world of difference between WP/HUS and HOF - and those differences are more like apples and spinach.

The QH - by itself - is a versatile, capable horse. What has been done to it in the name of showing is appalling.

Oh - in case ANYONE wonders - that's IMO.

Carol

Just to clarify: "Poll level with or above withers" applies to english. Western rule is "tip of ear level with or above withers". With a certain mare I own, that would be about 3 inches.

Chuckles
Apr. 10, 2009, 07:36 PM
ccoronios,

What I saw was a few pictures of horses in action, a bunch of horses in win pictures, some that really needed to get their heads up, some that were just fine.

I also noticed that there were more than a few that were quite a few years old, and that we cant be sure which ones have won recently. I guess I am an not sure which pictures you were referring to when you said
The QH - by itself - is a versatile, capable horse. What has been done to it in the name of showing is appalling..

Equino
Apr. 10, 2009, 08:53 PM
It really is apples and oranges to compare the two even though both are SUPPOSED to represent hunt horses. Just like those who Fox Hunt feel our typical Hunters don't make the grade, same with AQHA Vs H/J Hunters. And just like most top level Dressage horse probably wouldn't have the desirable movement for a H/J under saddle class, same for AQHA hunter Vs H/J hunter.

That said, I owned a Rugged Lark grandson that I wanted to do a bit of both types of showing with. He would never hack in either world, too much knee, but he was pretty decent over fences in the 3' classes. I went to a double judged AQHA show and was 1st under one judge, out of the ribbons under the 2nd judge. His reasoning: "I like to see a horse's knees parallel with the ground over the jump. Your horse's knees were too high, makes him look like he's peaking." Honest! I told that story to another reputable QH judge and he laughed and said he was judging at the World show in Hunt Seat Eq and one judge actually asked him if the rider was on the correct diagonal!

Right now, I have a 5 year old Last Captive-who is 3/4 TB himself, and the dam is a TB mare-gelding I'm playing with. He's almost 17 hands, all leg, moves like a dream and so far is showing nice form over fences. We haven't decided what his job will be yet, but my feeling is he could be fabulous in the QH World with the right owner/trainer-great mover, right look and way of going. I don't "peanut push" him, and he doesn't lope. My dream would be for him to be an O/F horse, but he probably could be made up to be a QH U/S horse if jumping isn't his forte. Definitely not as typey as my WB mare, but a nice horse regardless.

Plumcreek
Apr. 11, 2009, 08:57 PM
Quick bump to say the western people on this thread are so right. My big fat dressage WB is having the time of his life with a talented young western/all l around trainer. He's supple, relaxed, forward and happy. It's doing wonders for him! :yes:


Welcome to the Dark Side, Coreene!

diva4ever
Apr. 11, 2009, 09:32 PM
So my OTTB went to a QH barn first before coming to us...from what I can tell he went there straight off the track. We had so much to correct in the beginning that he would've been better off without their help! This probably isn't all barns, but they had no clue what to do with a fresh track horse. He couldn't lunge to save his life and we're still working on his head carriage. Everyone who saw him in the beginning was shocked at how horribly (kneesy) this nice moving (now) TB went..they tried to make him a show-worthy QH but failed miserably. So not all QH barns/people are bad, but they didn't make my horse any better...that was all me :D

mvp
Apr. 11, 2009, 10:26 PM
There is a difference between something like a working ranch or a guy with his own little place who starts colts and "fixes" problem horses of all persuasions.

The best part of the Dark Side is this talented, under-the-radar cowboy guy you only found through word of mouth.

I had my WB show hunter "ranch broke" and everyone-- show peeps riding animals worth more than a full-price Harvard education, fearful DQs full of philosophy, casual trail riders who claim that nice horses are over-rated, many BOs who deal with my gelding day in, day out on the ground all comment on this horse's nice manners and ability to think his way through any situation.

Ranch broke... It's what's for dinner.....absolutely everywhere.... and it comes from the purest part of the Dark Side.

Plumcreek
Apr. 11, 2009, 11:01 PM
Heh. The "Dark Side" trainer that started my colts is a very competative reiner. He uses a dressage whip (at home) instead of spurs on colts (the spurs are on, he just does not use them much). You cannot believe the advantage of daily training in an arena full of reiners to a young horse who is headed for a horse show warm-up ring environment.