Is this vet lying to me about my barn dog?

[RnR]

Hey, I am sorry if this is way off topic, I usually post on the eventing forum, but I ran across this dilemma today and did research online, but needed some more knowledge before I made myself look stupid.

First things first. I found a dog at my barn January 3rd, 2009. She was skinny, but very sweet, and wouldn't leave the barn, so I took her home since it was late and the barn is in the country. The next day, I brought her to the animal services to report a found dog but I didn't want to leave her. They said there were no reports of her missing. I went up and down the barn road knocking on doors, no luck. I put a sign up, still nothing. Three days later, I realized why no one was claiming her when she gave birth in my bed! (Jan 6th, 2009).

For the first week or so, she was kept inside with the pups and we took her out when she wanted to on a leash. Fastforward about 8-9 weeks. All of the pups have been FINALLY given away to good homes, and we have decided to keep her. Of course I wanted to get her spayed/shots the whole time she had her pups, but could not since it would not be safe for the puppies.

In that time, we found out she was an AMAZING escape artist. She knows how to open doors (with extreme ease) and can even get the spring loaded doors open from the outside. She also jumped a 6 foot fence when we tried to pen her. Then we tried tying her, and she pulled out of her collar, so we tightened it and tied her again, and she CHEWED the leash off. It's odd, she just doesn't like being confined because she doesn't really go anywhere once she is loose. We just come home and find her sitting in the driveway waiting for us.

So, March 21st, 2009, (that was when all her pups were gone, 10 weeks after birth) I was able to get her to a clinic to get all her shots, get her dewormed, get rabies, and a heartworm test. I went that same day and got approved for a No cost spay from animal services since I am a college student. I was elated. The reason she was not yet spayed was because she needed rabies first, and her udders (? I am a horse person haha) were very swollen.

I scheduled the appt to get her spayed at a place the No Cost Spay papers were written out to (not my normal vet), and brought her in today, March 31st, 2009, at 9AM. I called the vet at 5PM to make sure all was well. I never got to talk to a vet, and they never asked me if she had pups or anything so I never said it. So, when I talked to her she said the surgery went well, but it is going to cost me $100 extra even though I had the no cost papers because I did not know my dog was pregnant right now, and the surgery was therefore harder and longer.

I was SHOCKED. I really didn't think about it, and I was just like, "wow, ok.. I guess I'll pick her up in the morning. Wow.. I had no idea. hmm"

Then I got home and got to thinking. She is kept inside (except for her occasional escape artist ways) and I would have very easily KNOWN if she were in heat/bleeding, and she NEVER was. PLUS, it hasn't even been 3 months since she gave birth. How could she possibly be pregnant again? Even if they go in heat every 6 months, they have a 2 month gestation period meaning the last time she was in heat was 2 months before she gave birth to the pups Jan 6th. Therefore, she was in heat Nov 6th (roughly) and shouldn't have been able to be BACK in heat until another 2 months or so!

Now, that being said, I know my horse facts, but am nowhere near a dog expert. Is this very likely she was pregnant again? I DEFINITELY do not want to offend this vet if I ask her to explain to me tomorrow just how she thinks she was pregnant. I don't want to seem like I am accusing them of trying to rip me off for an extra buck either. I am very grateful I got the free spay (well, kinda free), I just don't see how this is working out...

Am I crazy?

P.s.- I also forgot to say she also asked me how long I have had the dog now, because she looks too skinny. I was a little put back, but hey I guess it's her job, I told her almost 3 months, but she was skinnier when I found her. So she said, well after 3 months she should look a lot better than this, I think you should get a fecal and test her for worms if you think you are feeding her enough. I told her she just got wormed last week, and she was like Oh.. I see that on my file now. Well, that probably didn't take care of everything, do you want me to go ahead and do the fecal? I politely told her, after an additional unplanned $100, I am not spending anymore. And now tell me.. Does this look like a skinny/wormy dog to you?

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSCF1095.jpg
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSCF1090.jpg

[Simkie]

Yeah, I'd say she's bullshitting you.

Tell her the dog had puppies on x date and ask her how she could possibily be pregnant again.

[Evalee Hunter]

I can't remember about how often dogs come in heat. However, IF they are pregnant, it is a longer & more difficult procedure - that I remember as true. However, you would think the "free spay" people would still cover it, since the whole idea is to avoid more unwanted puppies!

[Bluey]

Ask your vet about it first?

Then ask them if they may have mixed the paperwork of your dog with another, as your dog just had puppies, could not have been pregnant quite yet again.
This way they won't get defensive, maybe.

[Horsegal984]

In the early stages of pregnancy it can be very hard to tell for sure if they are really preg, or if the uterus is still swollen from heat. I'm suspisious that she was in fact still swollen from having pups, and since they don't cut the uterus open to see whats in it they were mistaken. If they are in heat or the uterus is enlarged it really is a more prolonged and difficult surgery, there is often more bleeding pain and bruising post op, and the doctor has to put more sutures in to ensure no vessels are leaking. I'm honestly too tired to look it up on the calender to figure out her estrus cycle, but if she escaped it's always a possibility that she did meet someone, esp since most females start being receptive to the male before they start to bleed.

I think their price for an in-heat/preg spay is a little high though, we only add $25-50 depending on the size of the dog, and thats at the regular clinic, not the low cost spay/neuter.

Katherine
Vet Tech

[MelodyMaker]

Yup, what Horsegal said. In early stages its very hard to see if she's in fact pregnant or engorged from recently given birth. It is a much bigger, riskier surgery..but thats an excessive amount to pay I would have thought?

[SLW]

Triple ditto Horsegal984. However, the swollen teats should have been a clue that she just weaned pups.

[Seven-up]

google says gestational time is 63 days. I couldn't find anything on how soon after having puppies she could get "in foal" again.

One thought...even if she wasn't wandering the neighborhood, she could have gentlemen callers coming to visit her. Just because they're not there when you get home doesn't mean they weren't there.


Another thought...I'd ask for some proof. They must do an x-ray, blood test, something, to find out if she's preggo, right?

[abbydp]

I don't know for sure about dogs, but I think the time line is similar to cats, is it not? If so then, yes it is possible. I adopted a cat from the pound a few years ago. When I went to pick her up we realized she was pregnant. The poor AC officer just shook her head and said "bring em back when they are old enough if you want." We kept her in a crate since we had no idea how pregnant and didn't want to have to search for the kittens. She had one very large kitten that didn't live. I was told that day I could not get her spayed for 6 weeks, but yes she could get pregnant in that time. I brought her in on the first day they said she was able - and yup sure enough she was pregnant. The vet was NOT happy. After the problem with the first kitten, though, he agreed it was best. But yes pregnant at 6 weeks.

If they are very different time lines, then disregard my whole post!

[RnR]

Thanks so much for the fast advice everyone. It really helps out a lot.

Horsegal- that makes sense. So is it likely she is just swollen from the previous pregnancy? If so, that still upsets me, because I specifically asked the animal services if it would be any problem that she had pups, and they said nope, it shouldn't be and it will still be no cost. Hmm...

So if that was the case, and she was still just swollen, do vets still normally charge extra even if she wasn't in heat or pregnant?

Sevenup- good point. It is possible, more unlikely though. And proof would be excellent, but that (I think) would definitely rub the vet the wrong way. She may really take offense to it. I know vets get it all the time where people walk in and suddenly think they have a PhD and know more than vets. That wouldn't be the case at what I would be trying to present with me, but I bet it would be looked at like that...

[Go Fish]

My mother used to raise show dogs. If I recall correctly, bitches would come in heat approximately 90 days after giving birth, so this sounds about right.

She only needs to be outside about an hour to get bred again.

[RnR]

I don't know for sure about dogs, but I think the time line is similar to cats, is it not? If so then, yes it is possible. I adopted a cat from the pound a few years ago. When I went to pick her up we realized she was pregnant. The poor AC officer just shook her head and said "bring em back when they are old enough if you want." We kept her in a crate since we had no idea how pregnant and didn't want to have to search for the kittens. She had one very large kitten that didn't live. I was told that day I could not get her spayed for 6 weeks, but yes she could get pregnant in that time. I brought her in on the first day they said she was able - and yup sure enough she was pregnant. The vet was NOT happy. After the problem with the first kitten, though, he agreed it was best. But yes pregnant at 6 weeks.

If they are very different time lines, then disregard my whole post!


I looked it up, and you were right, they do have the same length gestation period, but the BIG difference is that cats can come into heat as much as once a month, whereas dogs, it only happens twice a year, therefore, I can see how a cat is able to get pregnant that often.

Thanks for the help though!

[FlashGordon]

It is very possible they got in there and the surgery became more complex than they anticipated or quoted, especially given the fact that she has had pups.... especially very recently.

I'd just call and ask for clarification on the bill.

[Seven-up]

I think if you approached it as being inquisitive, as opposed to accusitory, you wouldn't offend. Like, "Really? I didn't know she could get preggo so soon after having puppies! How did you know?" Or, "Boy, it's a good thing you checked before you popped her open, do you take x-rays or something?" Or, "Man, I just thought she was fat. How could you tell?" Etc., etc.

[Evalee Hunter]

Just to add a little more confusion, here's a story.

We bought this farm in August 2004. A feral cat that came with the farm had a kitten (one, or only one lived), probably in Dec. We accidently caught her & the kitten in late January/early Feb. (A door to one of the heated rooms in the barn was left open & they went in to enjoy the warmth - my daughter saw them & slammed the door.) So, it didn't seem likely she would be pregnant as it is usually (according to my references) about 8 weeks after giving birth before a cat will get pregnant again. But, we took her & the kitten (who was sick) to the vet. Mom cat was ultrasounded & pronounced pregnant. I said, "Well, I've had a pregnant dog spayed & it was a sorry mess so I'll wait till she has kittens, keep her shut up in the barn until then & we'll spay as soon as the kittens are weaned." But, Mom cat never had kittens - don't know why, she was in the room the whole time, did not escape. I thought ultrasound was pretty definitive??

Anyway, we finally had her spayed in June & had her kitten neutered in June. In the meantime they had had shots & been wormed, etc. Mom cat decided she didn't like the vet visits & I got bitten & ended up in the hospital, but it was, on the whole, successful as she did not have more kittens & did get spayed. The only thing I still don't understand is the ultrasound showing pregnancy.

Neither mom nor son ever got friendly. They were turned loose. I can't get within 6 feet of the son, even though I picked him up & cuddled him twice a day every day for 6 months, tried to engage him in play, fed him, etc. (Of course, I also doctored him which is what he remembers.) I can pet mom cat but I'm not dumb enough to try to pick her up.

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . but the BIG difference is that cats can come into heat as much as once a month, whereas dogs, it only happens twice a year, therefore, I can see how a cat is able to get pregnant that often. . . .

But there is another difference with cats ... they ovulate in response to the stimulation of mating (unlike most animals). It makes pregnancy pretty certain.

[Simkie]

Cats and dogs are VASTLY different in this area, and really cannot be compared to each other.

[equinelaw]

She does not look skinny to me. She does appear to be a mix of a Boxer and some sort of hunting hound. May the force be with you. She is too smart to keep penned up and too stubborn to stop trying.

[eventchic33]

Here is a possibility. I took my cats in to be spayed and was charged $20 extra because the receptionist said my cat was preggers. Well I was pretty upset as this was a house cat who had not been outside for 3 years and my other house kitties were female. Turns out my cat had cysts and on the bill it was billed as preggers as the same procedure was used. So the dog may have had some cysts.

[Woodland]

Does this look like a skinny/wormy dog to you?

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSCF1095.jpg
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/RhythmRomance/?action=view&current=DSCF1090.jpg


No she looks GREAT! And where ever you live I want to vacation! Lucky dog gets to go boating. Get a new vet ASAP!

[CatOnLap]

Yes, good on you RnR for doing so many things right with your extra smart bitch ( and I mean that in the nicest way! :lol: ) She looks terrific.
I have no idea about the vet bill. It does sound like spaying so soon after whelping would be more complex surgery whether or not she was preggers again. But its usually not worth it to me to argue over $100 if I otherwise trust the person I am dealing with.

[BuddyRoo]

I would doubt very much that she was pregnant...

When we did spays on pregnant dogs or dogs in heat, we did charge more...more blood, hence more supplies and it took longer, hence more anesthesia. 100 bucks more? No.

This is the type of thing best discussed with your regular veterinarian though.

[Mav226]

When my rottie got spayed (at nearly 3 yrs. old), we got charged extra b/c of her super-expanded/large uterus. She had 11 puppies about a year before. I think the extra charge was $85.

I'm thinking they couldn't tell the difference between the dog's stretched uterus and a pregnant one. Or maybe the charge is the same and they just worded it wrong on the invoice?

I think she looks to be in great shape.

[RedMare01]

Hmm, interesting. I don't know that much about dogs, but I will say that I had a stray pregnant cat spayed a few years ago at one of those low cost clinics sponsored by the Humane Society. I think it was $40, and it made no difference that she was pregnant. And by pregnant, I mean VERY pregnant...probably a couple of weeks from delivery. That kitty has made the best house kitty ever since then BTW.

Was the vet sponsored by the Humane Society? If so, maybe ask them? I don't think they'd be to happy to find out that the vet is charging extra to owners who are doing the responsible thing and getting their pets fixed...especially when they are already getting paid by the Humane Society?

Caitlin

[Marshfield]

First off, it sounds as if this dog is very lucky to have had you come into her life. Unfortunately, yes it is possible that she was already pregnant. I have spayed dogs at ten weeks post delivery and in the uterus has always been completely back to normal. So, if it was swollend when they opened your girl that could indicate pregnancy. As for not seeing any bleeding, it's a myth that you'll see blood for any bitch in estrus. My GSP who is currently pregnant never bled at all this most recent cycle. Because of the timing of when the litter of pups arrived she may have essentially "short cycled"

Spaying a pregnant cats adds little to the complexity of the procedure. The blood vessels are still easy to work with. Spaying a pregnant dog or a dog in heat adds massively to the time and complexity of the procedure. Cost of supplies also goes up a fair bit due to increased suture and anesthesia use.

[Milocalwinnings]

I would ask the vet, as if you were curious, how soon a dog can get pregnant after having puppies. Once she gives you an answer, say something like "wow, I didn't realize she could get pregnant after having puppies x weeks ago!" or something along those lines. I would also do what someone else said and ask how she knew she was pregnant again, and request pictures/x-rays/whatever.

[Ibex]

I can't comment on the pregnancy part, but she looks a lot like my sister's Boxer/Hound mix when he's at a healthy and fit weight.

He's a very cool dog, and it sounds like yours is as well!

[JSwan]

From the pictures you posted -that is a lovely dog in good weight.

Maybe the vet is so used to seeing obese dogs, a normal one looks skinny.:confused:

Dunno.

But to me - I'd consider this dog weight normal. I see hound in her and in my experience... that explains the escapes and fence climbing. :lol: Good luck with that.... they are sneaky little devils!

[Bluey]

She looks like a fun dog.
Glad that you could make it work for you both.

[Alagirl]

No ideas on the question, but one awesome looking dog! :yes:

[RnR]

Thanks for all the replies again, I really appreciate it!

Well, since I haven't had her long enough to have a real "regular vet" she has only had to go in once for her shots. So, I called that vet just to ask, and he basically just told the receptionist to tell me, she could be pregnant, she could not. He can't answer unless he had seen what they did. So that was relatively.. useless, haha.

So, I ended up going to get her after my classes today ( I missed her to darn much to wait any longer for research!). I walked in and just sounded miffed when I asked the receptionist if there was ANY other way there could have been a mistake and maybe she was swollen but not pregnant? The vet tech/receptionist told me probably not. So I was just like, "Well I just wasn't sure since she DID just have pups about 10-11 weeks ago?" and the woman just said, "O she probably just went into heat as soon as she had her pups and went and bred something that same week." I told her it isn't likely since we kept her locked in with her pups the first week, and if that was the case, wouldn't there be NO doubt that she was pregnant since (if she bred within the 1st week of giving birth) she would already almost be ready to pop again, which, since the vet said she looked skinny, she obviously is not.

So she told me, which I wasn't aware of (and still am not sure about since I haven't thoroughly researched) that dogs are able to be stimulated into heat anytime like cats, so she could have done that too. Ok, in that case, I told her, "Wow.. Didn't know that, but it would still have been fairly hard for her to get pregnant I would think, since she is almost always with me." The lady said, "Well 'almost always' isn't enough in this case is it? It only takes a few minutes being unwatched."

I finally just gave up pushing the poor woman, I could tell she was sick of me, haha. I've probably never made any vet tech think about pregnancy so hard. In the end, she said she could try to fill out the No cost papers to include that cost, but she said it would be up to them if they want to pay for it, and most do not. I said that's fine, at least I tried.

So.. it comes to an end.. almost. I guess I wait to see if animal services accepts to pay for the extra fee or not. And her "pregnancy" remains a mystery. :confused:

[RnR]

O! I forgot to say thanks for the compliments on her! She's very bashful actually, she doesn't know she's so pretty. The vet's papers even commented on her temperament. It had the scale from 1 to 9, and she was a 1 (as in docile) and under it in the notes margin it said, "very quiet." haha! Poor thing.

And Hound I think is a definite, what she's mixed with always changes. I have always said hound/boxer but my bf disagrees. A LOT of people ask if she's a pit-bull. Which I find odd, because she doesn't look pit to me at all. And like you said, lord help me.. she's too smart, whatever breeds are in her!:lol:

[plazar20]

I am a Vet Tech and I would be very angry with the vet she should have told you how she knew the dog was preggers and stuck with the program as it is stated, unless she had proof ie. ultrasound x-rays, palpatations etc. Sound like she just found a way to make some money off the program. Also, your dog looks pretty damn healthy to me, not at all underweight, I think I would say something to the people that sponser that program!:mad:

[danceronice]

I would definitely talk to the people who sponsor the program. I don't recall if it cost more to have our dog spayed while pregnant, but we had other issues at the time (she came from the pound pregnant and loaded with heartworm, so that was the priority.)

And what a gorgeous dog!

[Meredith Clark]

O! I forgot to say thanks for the compliments on her! She's very bashful actually, she doesn't know she's so pretty. The vet's papers even commented on her temperament. It had the scale from 1 to 9, and she was a 1 (as in docile) and under it in the notes margin it said, "very quiet." haha! Poor thing.
:

OMG! She reminds me so much of my Bella dog!

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2877521950068747398FPGVzi

Bells was a rescue and was thin when I got her, she gets great food now and she's still slim. She's just a ridiculously athletic dog; she chased down a rabbit in the field the other day and caught it!

You're dog doesn't look thin at all, they're just ripped!

[Calamber]

Okay, I have to say that perhaps your dog could go down in the medical books as a very unusual case (to say the least), or maybe the "vet tech" can be included. I have had dogs for better than 30 years, we used to breed AKC competition beagles, and I have had my share of puppies some purposefully bred and many, many rescues when I was able to do such things. In no instances were any of these dogs able to be "stimulated" into heat (other than the usual situation with females in the same kennel coming into season at the same time). Nor did any of the females come into season other than every 5 to 6 months when they were not so "stimulated" (has to do with scents and hormone production as a result). Usually, when the female whelps pups, her time frame is altered a bit one way or the other, mostly by a month in either direction. I have had a female labrador come into season later than six months after whelping. I have known dogs that only come into season once a year.

But never in all my born days have I heard that a canine can be "stimulated" into a heat cycle like a feline by mating.:eek: Dogs are not receptive to being bred unless in season so how does that work?

I am always willing to learn new and fantastic things about nature but this is stretching it a bit for me. It is more likely that she was swollen from the recent birth especially since she was in such poor health when she found you. The uterus most likely bled more as a result but their story just does not hold water, much more suspect is someone who thinks a dog that looks like the one in the picture is thin. I am sorry if I missed something somewhere but were the pictures recent ones?

I also have to ask where the doggie was vacationing as I would sure love to go there. BTW, thank you for taking such good care of a throwaway lovely doggie and her babies. Glad to see you love her so much.

[bf1]

Just looked at the pictures - what a great looking dog!! The body definately looks like a boxer (I have one) - not "skinny" - just healthy. Perhaps could use a couple of pounds, maybe not - hard to tell from the pictures. Have a great time with her - my boxers have been fabulous barn dogs.

[WaningMoon]

In the early stages of pregnancy it can be very hard to tell for sure if they are really preg, or if the uterus is still swollen from heat. I'm suspisious that she was in fact still swollen from having pups, and since they don't cut the uterus open to see whats in it they were mistaken. If they are in heat or the uterus is enlarged it really is a more prolonged and difficult surgery, there is often more bleeding pain and bruising post op, and the doctor has to put more sutures in to ensure no vessels are leaking. I'm honestly too tired to look it up on the calender to figure out her estrus cycle, but if she escaped it's always a possibility that she did meet someone, esp since most females start being receptive to the male before they start to bleed.

I think their price for an in-heat/preg spay is a little high though, we only add $25-50 depending on the size of the dog, and thats at the regular clinic, not the low cost spay/neuter.

Katherine
Vet Tech

Well, that is the first time I've ever heard that. Now I sure don't know it all but I did work with a vet for many yrs and used to raise Dobermans and Himalayan cats as well as inseminating cattle for a long time and owned a dairy. Far from knowing it all but.....

Never in my life of 50 yrs have I ever heard of a dog breeding before bleeding. The smaller dogs breed earlier. Sometimes from day 3 on, with the larger dogs such as mine not usually accepting the male until day 10. Never have I heard of this. We always start counting the days of heat with the first day being the day they start to bleed. With large dogs you then attempt to mate around the 10th day. I have never seen a dog stand to be bred before bleeding and don't believe it. Never heard of it in all the yrs I worked for the vet, not even once unless the owner just didn't know the dog was bleeding which does happen.

And the dogs uterus should be expected to return to normal size before the time frame the op is stating. But I do agree with the extra time and sutures required if an animal is in heat or recently had pups.http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/whelping.html
I think you will find the correct info there just a couple paragraphs down they surely mention the time frame for breeding AFTER bleeding.

[WaningMoon]

But there is another difference with cats ... they ovulate in response to the stimulation of mating (unlike most animals). It makes pregnancy pretty certain.

Absolutely. There are barbs on the males penis which signal the queen to ovulate. Nothing at all like a dog.

[slc2]

The dog does look thinner than the average family pet. By a fair amount.

And OH YES she is very, very likely to be pregnant. Almost every animal that exists has a 'fertility feature' to get repregnant right after giving birth.

There are two kinds of unspayed female dogs. Ones that are pregnant, and ones that are about to become pregnant. I doubt very much it was a mistake OR a lie. Say toodle-ooh to your 100 bucks.

[Cielo Azure]

Yeh, that whole fecal thing belongs in that other vet thread.

Just worm the damn dog (which you did), it often costs more to run a fecal than to worm!

I once had a puppy, took her to the vet, they did a fecal, came back neg. So they suggested worming anyway, in case they missed something:(

It is all $$$$.

B.T.W. being on the thin side is good in dogs. Obesity is bad (just like in people and horses). I bet if you had fallen for the "you dog looks thin" routine, she would have been selling you "perscription" dog food and testing for food allergies next. Sigh. Sorry all the hard working, honest vets out there but I have five dogs and hear the stories all to often. Certain DVMS fit a pattern...run, don't walk when you discover the truth.

Sounds like your vet and you aren't a good match (if you value your money), time to move on before she finds more reasons to open your pocket book that next time you go in.

[RedMare01]

The dog does look thinner than the average family pet. By a fair amount.

And OH YES she is very, very likely to be pregnant. Almost every animal that exists has a 'fertility feature' to get repregnant right after giving birth.

There are two kinds of unspayed female dogs. Ones that are pregnant, and ones that are about to become pregnant. I doubt very much it was a mistake OR a lie. Say toodle-ooh to your 100 bucks.

The average family pet is overweight. And the pregnancy does not sound physiologically possible. But other than that...sure, anything is possible...carry on.

Caitlin

[Mav226]

I would contact the company that sponsors the program.

I'm not a dog expert, nor do I play Cesar Milan on TV. But, I have a small amount of experience with breeding and whelping dogs.

Since when can dogs be stimulated into going into heat? Either the vet and vet techs don't know much about breeding or they're trying to take you for $100. Although, it is possible that you (I) learn something new every day...

[onetrickpony]

The dog does look thinner than the average family pet. By a fair amount.

:rolleyes:

Yes, and considering that most family pets are OBESE, this is a Good Thing. You should be able to easily feel the ribs of a cat or dog and see a definite "waist" when looking at them from above.

Fat pets are one of my major pet peeves! OP, your dog looks great. Don't change a thing!

[jherold]

Is there any fine print on the forms stating that you are responsible for extra charges for a more complicated procedure? If not, I would tell the vet that you were approved for a "free" spay because you couldn't afford it. The spay is to be paid by the organization, not you. If the vet thinks he should have extra money, he can try to get it out of the organization.

[short strided]

The average family pet is FAT! I have to bite my tongue about my friend's dogs all of the time. Sausages with legs. Your dog looks great!

[silver2]

My parents dog is obese and the vet keeps telling them she's fine. I think there are a lot of vets out there that really don't know very much about animals outside of books, lol.

Your vet sounds like she's trying to take you for a ride though. I'd report it tot the program that sponsored the dog.

[SEPowell]

She's beautiful and in great weight, and she sounds like an exquisite escape artist. I have a fox hound who's equally talented. So glad she has a home with you.

[Simkie]

There are two kinds of unspayed female dogs. Ones that are pregnant, and ones that are about to become pregnant. I doubt very much it was a mistake OR a lie. Say toodle-ooh to your 100 bucks.

Excuse me?

I have an unspayed bitch that's 9 years old. She's never been pregnant. She never will be pregnant. It wasn't difficult to keep her from getting pregnant.

Dogs DO NOT cycle directly after having puppies. They're not cats or horses!

[dacasodivine]

Excuse me?

I have an unspayed bitch that's 9 years old. She's never been pregnant. She never will be pregnant. It wasn't difficult to keep her from getting pregnant.

Dogs DO NOT cycle directly after having puppies. They're not cats or horses!

I have two unspayed doberman bitches. One is 8 year old and 6 year old. Neither one have had unplanned litters. It's not impossible.

For the OP, I would talk to the vet personally and the program and let them know what the vet clinic is trying to pull. I doubt the dog was pregnant that soon after having puppies. It would be pretty unusual.

Good luck

[Cielo Azure]

I have five dogs, three were unspayed and one was an intact male. I just got a number of the older (seven years, five years, three years) spayed and the male neutered.

I have never, ever had an unplanned pregnancy.

It is called baby gates, shut doors and keeping dogs with you or indoors.

It isn't hard to do and there are responsible breeders, who don't keep their dogs in cemment kennels all over the world doing it.

[RnR]

Thanks again guys!

I am glad to see I may not be crazy after all. Some people agree that she shouldn't/couldn't possible be pregnant that soon after pups, and a few object (the vet included).

And thanks for the weight comments. I just always thought she looked like the energetic, athletic dog she is. She gets full access to her food whenever she feels like it since it just sits there, so it isn't like I am withholding anything from her, she just goes to the beach often and plays in the ocean, goes to my horse barn everyday and follows horses on trails, and goes on my afternoon 3 mile jogs. And then also manages to find her own "play" times (normally at 3 or so in the morning unfortunately:lol:).

Meredith- she DOES have a similar face to your dog, how funny!

Cielo- That is exactly where I saw the fecal heading... (not literally of course). But just down that path of having to spend more money, haha.

jherold- The vet took my papers to bill animal services, so I can't check if there was anything mentioning those conditions. If not, I am definitely checking into that more.

Simkie- Funny you should mention they aren't cats or horses. Those are the two animals she DID compare them to. First cats coming into heat when stimulated, and when I looked skeptical, she knew I had horses so she mentioned them as well and said dogs are like horses where they can get pregnant right after having a foal. I was baffled by both examples...

I am definitely going to mention this to the animal services about their program. I don't think they should be recommending people to this vet if this is how they do business.

O, and for those who asked, this lucky dog vacations (lives) on the Florida beaches :winkgrin:

[etc.]

I used to breed corgis. Dogs don't come in that quickly after puppies. Also, many will look skinny for a while after nursing. I think she's doing great all considered!

[idtogo]

Just my 2 cents (probably about all it is worth)....

dogs come into heat approximately every 5-6 months, your dog was spayed at about that 5 month mark, maybe she was coming into heat, maybe her uterus was still quite enlarged from her pregnancy and maybe she was in a state of very early pregnancy, either way it was likely NOT a routine, easy spay.

In our practice we also participate in a low cost spay/neuter program and the certificate given to owners actually states it is for young, routine spays and neuters and that the vet at discretion may charge additional fees (ie older, over 50#, pregnant ,retained testes in males etc). Again, the mistake made was lack of communication to you that there may be an additional charge for a large breed, over 1 year of age, recently pregnant and possibly in heat female (anything BUT a routine spay). A dog like yours is a more difficult surgery, the uterus is likely to be friable and easily torn and the vessels more likely to tear and bleed, it likely takes the vet longer, may require a second vet to assist and likely requires more anesthetic time etc....

You did great to adopt this dog and give her a safe home and even though you do not agree, $100 is a deal for her surgery. I can promise you that the $100 plus the very small amount given to your vet by the animal services did not come close to covering the costs
associated with that spay.

As for the fecal, routine wormers will get only a portion of the parasites your stray may carry, they will not get giardia or coccidia. A vet recommends a fecal on every pet because it is pounded into us the importance of zoonotic infection potential of rounds, hooks , giardia etc.... If you do not see the value, it is your choice to decline, it is my job to recommend and educate...

She looks like a nice dog and she landed in a good place. Have fun with her...

[spurgirl]

OP, Your dog's weight and coat condition look great, for a Boxer/hound cross she is in fabulous condition...Anyone who thinks she's too thin needs their head examined. The Boxer's body (which her cross favors), is described as lean and muscular, with a short, smooth haircoat. You can see she has great muscling, and no doubt a lovely "waist" when viewed from the top-in most dogs, when they lose that waist, they are overweight or obese....She looks like a great companion. She's lucky to have you!

[Donkey]

Just my 2 cents (probably about all it is worth)....

dogs come into heat approximately every 5-6 months, your dog was spayed at about that 5 month mark, maybe she was coming into heat, maybe her uterus was still quite enlarged from her pregnancy and maybe she was in a state of very early pregnancy, either way it was likely NOT a routine, easy spay.

In our practice we also participate in a low cost spay/neuter program and the certificate given to owners actually states it is for young, routine spays and neuters and that the vet at discretion may charge additional fees (ie older, over 50#, pregnant ,retained testes in males etc). Again, the mistake made was lack of communication to you that there may be an additional charge for a large breed, over 1 year of age, recently pregnant and possibly in heat female (anything BUT a routine spay). A dog like yours is a more difficult surgery, the uterus is likely to be friable and easily torn and the vessels more likely to tear and bleed, it likely takes the vet longer, may require a second vet to assist and likely requires more anesthetic time etc....

You did great to adopt this dog and give her a safe home and even though you do not agree, $100 is a deal for her surgery. I can promise you that the $100 plus the very small amount given to your vet by the animal services did not come close to covering the costs
associated with that spay.

As for the fecal, routine wormers will get only a portion of the parasites your stray may carry, they will not get giardia or coccidia. A vet recommends a fecal on every pet because it is pounded into us the importance of zoonotic infection potential of rounds, hooks , giardia etc.... If you do not see the value, it is your choice to decline, it is my job to recommend and educate...

She looks like a nice dog and she landed in a good place. Have fun with her...

And this is what the vet should have said to the OP in person instead of letting the assistant blunder her way through a bad and uneducated explanation...

[Sing Mia Song]

IME, bitches generally cycle back in 2-5 months post whelp. Every animal is an individual, of course, but I find it difficult to believe this bitch was pregnant. In heat, yes. Pregnancy is doubtfull, given your monitoring her so closely.

We generally charge extra (as mentioned earlier by Katherine) for dogs who bleed excessively. We usually refer to this as a "in heat charge," whether the dog was actually in heat, pregnant, or had some freaky clotting problem not picked up on routine bloodwork. It covers the excess time and anesthesia for the surgeon to tie off those bleeders. Your $100 charge sounds excessive (we also charge $25-50), so either you are in a high dollar area, your dog bled a LOT, or your vet is rooking you.

And the receptionist (please don't dignify her with the title of vet tech, because no real tech could possibly be that much of an idiot) is full of it. Dogs are NOT induced ovulators like cats.

In fact, just for giggles, please call and ask to speak with the vet who did the surgery, and ask her if they are induced ovulators. And when she tells you no, let her know what her receptionist told you. They need to know that their staff is telling such crap to clients.

[philosoraptor]

Spays on pregnant dogs and cats are traditionally more expensive. That's just how it is. If she was loose and she was unspayed, it was probably safe to assume she was out breeding. I think the vet was not doing anything wrong with the surcharge. Maybe they didn't tell you, but you also didn't tell them she was running loose, unspayed, for 5 months. Chaulk it up to a misunderstanding.

Getting the entire spay for only the $100 sounds like a steal to me! Count yourself lucky. :)

If she gets out over fences, try a kennel with chain roof. If you have to tie her and she gets loose off a rope, try a steel cable. My parents have escape artist dogs, and the're kept indoors when not supervised in a fenced yard.

Thanks for taking her in, giving her a home, and getting her spayed.

[Liz2642]

Another vet tech chiming in... I don't think that the extra $100 is unreasonable. As others have stated, if in fact your dog was pregnant or in heat, the surgery becomes longer and more involved. The clinic I work at will accept spay/neuter certificates from a local shelter. If the surgery is anything other than routine, an extra charge is added. Over 1 yr old, in heat, retained testicle, etc. This extra charge is also applied to surgeries that aren't part of the shelter program. The form from the shelter does state that they don't cover any extra charges. I don't know what type of arrangement your vet has with this organization, but we only get reimbursed for half of the price of the surgery. Since our charges are usually double our cost, we don't make any money on these surgeries. We feel that it is a service to the community and that we may bring in new clients this way. Therefore, if the surgery ends up costing us more, we need to make up for that by adding the extra fee. The possibility of the extra fee is clearly stated on our consent forms and gone over with the client when the animal is dropped off for surgery. I don't think what your vet did was unreasonable, it just seems like there was a lack of communication.

We used to also accept Friends of Animals certificates which worked the same way. The only problem was that there is no screening process, anyone can go online and pay $12 (I think) and get a certificate for a free spay or neuter. We ended that program when we had clients driving in BMW's with the puppy they just paid $1000 for at a pet store with a Friends of Animals certificate.

[Sing Mia Song]

Ha! Liz, we've had the same experience. I had a woman who bitched up and down about her bill after driving in with a Mercedes, and I just had to say, "Gosh, I just LOVE your purse, is it a Dooney & Burke?" :sleepy: Pu-leeze.

[S1969]

When I looked skeptical, she knew I had horses so she mentioned them as well and said dogs are like horses where they can get pregnant right after having a foal.

How could anyone possibly compare dogs to horses? Comparing an animal possible of producing ONE [or rarely twins, but you hope not!] live birth in an 11 month gestation to a dog that could produce two litters of 6-12+ puppies a year? Why not compare them to a frog or a chicken, while we're at it! And if only it were so easy to breed dogs by having the male stimulate the female into ovulation! I'll tell my breeder friends that they've been trying too hard all this time! (Trying to ship the bitch to the stud at the right time, yada yada yada. Apparently they could have just sent her anytime they thought having puppies would work best for them...!)

The $100 is the secondary issue here; of course you would expect a more difficult surgery to be more expensive, regardless of the reason...excessive bleeding caused by any factor, any other major incidents, drug reactions, recovery problems, etc. It's the unclear explanations that are the problem. I would definitely call back another time and speak to the vet who performed the surgery, just because this would annoy me to no end!

Good luck!

[yellowbritches]

I can't help at all with the whole gestation/ovulation thing of dogs (never ever had a pregnant dog and never plan to unless in a situation like yours!), but she is LOVELY and in good weight. I don't think she needs more weight, or, what little she does, I'm sure will get put on quickly as she catches up after nursing her pups. Definitely a hound mix, maybe a ridgey? :) Better watch it...I might come steal her!

I think the whole vet thing is just one giant blunder. If there are charges above and beyond what the no spay program charges, they should have told you in advance. They should have also discussed the dog's history a bit more with you, and the nimrod receptionist should have kept her mouth shut or gave you to a real vet tech or vet. Hopefully, the program with pay for it, but, if they don't $100 is a deal on a spay of any kind (I think I spent close to $500 nuetering a kitten last fall and having his sister die on the table while being spayed. They didn't charge me for most of her work).

[WaningMoon]

I can't help at all with the whole gestation/ovulation thing of dogs (never ever had a pregnant dog and never plan to unless in a situation like yours!), but she is LOVELY and in good weight. I don't think she needs more weight, or, what little she does, I'm sure will get put on quickly as she catches up after nursing her pups. Definitely a hound mix, maybe a ridgey? :) Better watch it...I might come steal her!

I think the whole vet thing is just one giant blunder. If there are charges above and beyond what the no spay program charges, they should have told you in advance. They should have also discussed the dog's history a bit more with you, and the nimrod receptionist should have kept her mouth shut or gave you to a real vet tech or vet. Hopefully, the program with pay for it, but, if they don't $100 is a deal on a spay of any kind (I think I spent close to $500 nuetering a kitten last fall and having his sister die on the table while being spayed. They didn't charge me for most of her work).

Paying almost $500 for a neuter is just plain a rip off, I don't care where you live. There is nothing that goes on in a neuter that should cost that kind of money. That is ridiculous. Sorry to hear about the sister, death during spaying must be pretty rare. In the yrs I worked at the vets it never happened, not on a healthy normal cat who was there just for the spay.

[Marshfield]

I'd say unlikely the vet was trying to scam you. Given the timing of the litter she had, still possible for her to have come into heat and gotten pregnant; though more likely she was coming into heat at the time of surgery. And, they don't always bleed when in heat. I have an intentionally pregnant dog at home right now, she never bled, just some swelling. I have a second one in heat righ now who hasn't bled at all. I've been following her through cytology.


Spaying a dog who is pregnant or in heat is much more time consuming and costly in terms of anesthesia and suture material. Spaying a pregnant cat doesn't up the difficulty much.

Kudos to you for taking in this girl and doing the right thing for her.

[yellowbritches]

Paying almost $500 for a neuter is just plain a rip off, I don't care where you live. There is nothing that goes on in a neuter that should cost that kind of money. That is ridiculous. Sorry to hear about the sister, death during spaying must be pretty rare. In the yrs I worked at the vets it never happened, not on a healthy normal cat who was there just for the spay.
She ended up having a congenital heart issue that we didn't know about (they were just little strays). They tried very hard to save her...very sad. The one thing I'll say about the price tag is that I think they might have gotten a bunch of vaccines at the same time (again, strays. We were catching up on what they missed), and that can add up. Oh well...the kitten I found this year I didn't get charged a dime for with any of the stuff we've had done to her, plus all my other small animals have gotten cared for as well. Different vet, but it all comes out in the wash in the end in my book!