"Buying an event horse, an insider's guide"

[TB or not TB?]

I read Craig's articles (posted here http://www.aikeneventhorsesale.com/) and I have to say I'm a little put off. I think he broached some topics quite well, like really identifying your wants (scopey and pretty) versus your needs (sane, safe), but the overall tone was rather condescending.

Additionally, he says that most ammys should spend around $25k, or $10k for a purpose bred 2 y/o, which felt really weird in this sport of "ride what ever is in your backyard." Coupled with the fact that he also says most people don't need a horse capable of Prelim (which I agree with), he is basically recommending that most people spend $25k for a N/T horse. Sure, if you have the extra cash for something fancy, why not? But really, MOST horses can get around Novice just fine, and it doesn't take a unicorn to do T. You don't need a purpose bred eventer for those levels, and you don't need to spend that much money. $10k ought to be able to buy something that maxes out at T, and if you're willing to take green or unproven, you can probably get one free. :lol: Now don't get me wrong, I understand where he's coming from as a Professional Event Horse Seller, but I think the low level ammy market values those QHs and Appys and Mutts as much as those purpose bred Breed du jours.

Furthermore, a few lines really made me :eek:
"It’s hard enough for professionals to make money on horses; amateurs shouldn’t even try." I understand the sentiment. People shouldn't buy a horse and expect to be able to sell it and make a profit. That is a point most people (especially parents of young riders!) are missing. I find it rude though that just because someone doesn't make their living being a Professional Eventer, they lack the eye or ability or make a profit from OTTBs or retraining or putting miles on a greenie. :confused: I guess I get a similar sense of frustration from this quote as well:

As for racehorses, amateurs should not go to the track and buy a horse. Nor should they buy a horse that is recently off the track.A 10 y/o kid who is just moving off a small pony competing at BN? No, probably not a canditate for a horse off the track. An adult ammy who has been competing for a number of years at the N and T levels??? That is definitely where I would look for someone on a budget. I mean really, you get the sense that he's worried people will stop lining his pocket when they find they can get a horse as nice as that $10k 2 y/o for a 10th of the price, and compete it that summer. Maybe I'm just oversentitive to OTTB criticism.

None of those quotes really compare to this one, that utterly and completely boggles my mind:

"In our business, we won’t necessarily let a rider try a horse over cross-country jumps."Okay, screeching to a halt and doing a double take. If I am going to be shelling out that $25-50k for my Novice purpose bred, I am damn sure going to ride it over some XC jumps. :eek: I'm really shocked at this mentality. Yes, insurance sucks and there is risk of a fall. Gosh, it seems to me that that is something you factor in when you are an Eventing Professional. I just can't fathom not letting someone try a horse XC. It would make me wonder if he is insanely strong, hates water, or has the tendency to dump his rider in the ditch, and I would walk away from that sale in a second.

Individually, none of these quotes are too horrible (well except maybe the last one), but the overriding theme of the articles is quite disheartening to me. That and the emphasis on making sure your trainer gets his commission kind of rubs me the wrong way. Hey, I'm all about paying for services rendered and having my trainer's input. But you know, most Novice horses who are selling for $25k are probably decent enough that I could toss a dart and pick a suitable one. I would hope that I have enough experience that when I'm shelling out that kind of cash, I give myself some credit, despite the amateur status that renders me blind and deaf and dumb. I suppose that I'm being a little harsh, but I didn't realize that we were Hunters. Oddly, I suppose that $25k isn't too much money comparitively speaking, but for most of my adult ammy friends, that's not even a possibility. :no:

What are your thoughts? Feel free to disagree, I am open to reconsidering my stance, but I was terribly disheartened with this article. Hopefully it's one of those cases where Equestrian Professionals just aren't good at communication.

[retreadeventer]

That's OK. You're alright to say what you said.
I went to the site and read it.
Yes, I think it's pretty bald about profit motive, isn't it.
Isn't it scary to think he is just ONE of many in the new Professional Riders Association that may take over the leadership of our sport? (evil grin)

[bambam]

This article was in Eventing magazine a few of years ago. At the time, I found it condescending and it certainly rubbed me the wrong way (I do not believe anyone who commented on COTH about it, liked it). But you have to remember his bias- he sells event horses for a living and so he is not going to advocate buying whatever is in the backyard on the cheap- he gets no commission for that and his horses sure as heck ain't cheap. Yeah, it would have been nice if the article was not so biased and condescending but it is what it is and this is hardly the only piece I have seen from him that comes across to me as condescending to the adult ammie eventer (and the target audience is not experienced eventers clearly).
No idea where the "you don't get to try xc jumps" came from- he and Jan let me try the horses I looked at over xc jumps and I would have walked away if they had not.

[Thomas_1]

I've not read the whole set of articles but they seem pretty sensible and realistic to me.

[TB or not TB?]

No idea where the "you don't get to try xc jumps" came from- he and Jan let me try the horses I looked at over xc jumps and I would have walked away if they had not.

Interesting. Odd that he would put that in print if he doesn't stick to it?? I found the article insulting but not overly bizarre until I read that sentence. I'm glad he is more realistic in real life. Like I said, I'm sure some of the tone is just from horse people not coming across well in print, but it makes me wonder how people attract business with such poor marketing skills.

Oh well. I didn't actually post this thread to "pick on the Pros" or do the "us versus them" stuff. I wouldn't expect someone who sells horses for a living to encourage people to not use their services, but I strongly oppose this H/J business model. Where are the "Eventing on a budget: creative solutions to finding an event horse" articles? Heck, we don't have to go that far. How about injecting a dose of reality into an article about buying from a horse trader?

[4cornersfarm]

Well, I have to say, I went to the page and won't be bothering to even click on the articles, as the headers say "Buying and Event horse, an Insider's guide." If they can't check for such major typos right on the front page, I'm not going to bother to read any further.

Just call me a persnickity English major. (How *do* you spell persnickity?) :D

[eventmom]

As the mom of a "10 year old eventer":) I think it smacks of the same attitude I find everywhere in america today. "Hire and expert!".
I am not equipped to handle teaching my children.
I'm not equipped to handle consoling a friend in trouble. For that they either need counseling or drugs.
I'm certainly not equipped to handle fixing my plumbing or electricity.
So why should I feel that I have the necessary skills to buy a horse?
This is one of the many reasons we chose the sport of eventing. All those experts can just keep telling us what we need to do. But in the end, you can't ride papers and everybody rides the same dressage test.
So, they start looking pretty stupid when my backyard econonag kicks their $30,000 guy in the buns.
Oh, and while my kid does it, they develop the skills to go buy the next econo-nag and keep kicking!
I can't say we will ever reach the top echelons of the sport this way. But boy are we having fun and learning a ton in the process.
I just don't think spending $30,000 on a horse that can break just as easy as a cheaper model sounds like that much fun.

[Flying Hill]

Okay, I haven't read the article, and I'm not sure I want to, but the actual quotation was:

"In our business, we won’t *necessarily* let a rider try a horse over cross-country jumps."
(My emphasis.)

Presumably the market for these expensive N-T horse's are people who are learning the sport and need something that they can learn on. Unfortunately, he uses the term "amateur" as opposed to inexperienced, and unfairly (IMO) casts aspersion on the many excellent riders who don't happen to make any money off of horses. (Not to mention that anyone, regardless of skill or experience, now qualifies as a pro if they have accepted any money for teaching an up-down lesson or two). Anyway, I wouldn't *necessarily* let the wannabe eventer who has barely graduated cross-rails to try my sale horse over xc jumps either! :)

I don't agree with the premise of the article, as I understand it from your post: eventing is all about taking the horse from the backyard or the OTTB and developing it, as far as I am concerned. But, a lot of our modern American culture is about having it now and having "the best." Why take your time and put work into something if you can BUY it now? :)

[Wee Dee Trrr]

I'm inclined to agree with TB or not TB. One of the things I love the most about eventing is the fact that everyone on pretty much anything can be included.


Horses/eventing is an INCREDIBLY expensive sport and I fear the day it becomes so elitist that I can't participate anymore.

[ThirdCharm]

Well, look at it this way. Any potential buyer who would actually believe the information in this article is probably so inexperienced that they probably DO need a trainer to hold their hand, a $25K horse to cart them around low-level XC in safety, and probably should NOT be dealing with OTTBs (or trusted with a potato gun for that matter, but that's another article *grin*)

Jennifer

[Gry2Yng]

I hate to agree with Craig, but on this one point I do, I have had too many friends and acquaintances that think they can turn that OTTB into an eventer end up hurt. It is not a task for the timid rider. Not everyone can do it and some of our friends need to hear that they are not up to the task. Especially when we are in our 40's and 50's and we don't bounce and healing is a slow process both physically and emotionally.

Other than that, I think I read the article the first time and found it insulting overall.

[Couture TB]

I have always said OTTBs are the greatest horses in the world. That said I ALWAYS tell people that they need to go to a trainer/rider/owner that has the know how to reschool them to make them into the type of horses that others can ride. They can be the greatest horses in the world, but DO NOT BELONG IN BEGINNER HANDS

[retreadeventer]

Econonag! I LOFF it! Let's write an article: "Finding your own Econonag" and the sequel, "Kicking $30,000 Butt With Your Econonag".

[subk]

I also think you have to remember what he sees day in and day out. There is a big culture of eventing that is "do it yourselves," but if you're in his business you very rarely ever deal with them. Why would you? I'm an adult amateur and even with a 5 figure budget I didn't call on the Craig Thompsons of the world. I didn't even call on the BNT that I've worked extensively with in the past! If these guys don't work with us on a daily basis why would you assume they understand either the mentality much less the size of that market?

[eventmom]

Can't claim that one! I stole it from a very funny thread in the off course forum a couple of weeks ago:lol:

[yellowbritches]

"In our business, we won’t necessarily let a rider try a horse over cross-country jumps." Okay, screeching to a halt and doing a double take. If I am going to be shelling out that $25-50k for my Novice purpose bred, I am damn sure going to ride it over some XC jumps. :eek: I'm really shocked at this mentality. Yes, insurance sucks and there is risk of a fall. Gosh, it seems to me that that is something you factor in when you are an Eventing Professional. I just can't fathom not letting someone try a horse XC. It would make me wonder if he is insanely strong, hates water, or has the tendency to dump his rider in the ditch, and I would walk away from that sale in a second.

Keep in mind he says "necessarily", not "definitely not". And I understand that sentiment wholeheartedly. I wouldn't necessarily let someone ride one of our sale horses over xc fences, whether the horse is 5k or 50k, if they aren't riding competently and safely over show jumps in the ring. Not worth the risk of someone getting hurt or someone scaring my horse because they were ridden poorly. So, if someone comes and tries a horse and scares me here at home, if they ask to try it on xc, there is a good chance I'll say nope. But if they get along well and have a good ride here and ask, I'd be far more inclined.

I think you have to take most of what Craig writes with a grain of salt. He does say a lot of useful things, but occasionally you get smacked in the face with a bit of ego or pompousness. And while I don't agree with the 25k price tag (because we have a couple of really nice ammy horses that were bought for way, way, way less than that), I do tend to agree, to a small degree, that OTTBs aren't the best way to go for a lot of ammies. Some, sure, but I think more ammies end up frustrated, hurt, or scared with their OTTBs than a lot care to admit.

[enjoytheride]

I agree with TB and I think the buying the OTTB is a big "it depends." Someone who has evented at the lower levels on an older slower horse, has shown hunter jumper, or has done lots of dressage would probably be fine with an OTTB that has had some off track training. They'd need to have a trainer and they'd need to be able to ride forward but isn't that every horse? I don't think going from being an adult ammy who brought your ex dressage morgan to BN before it retired and then buying an OTTB in hopes of actually making the time (not that morgans can't!) is bad pair.

I think the plodding horse that would rather sleep then gallop is just as bad as a hyped up ottb that wants to run at mach 10.

[Ajierene]

I have always said OTTBs are the greatest horses in the world. That said I ALWAYS tell people that they need to go to a trainer/rider/owner that has the know how to reschool them to make them into the type of horses that others can ride. They can be the greatest horses in the world, but DO NOT BELONG IN BEGINNER HANDS

I think this is where people diverge. Those that have grown up riding and continue to ride sometimes do not see the issues involved with throwing a beginner or timid rider on a horse that lacks training or more especially needs to be retrained.

I have bought two horses from the auction and have been to the auction countless times with a horse dealer experienced in buying horses from this auction. I would NEVER tell the average person to just go to the auction and buy a horse. There are so many factors, including limited room at some auctions to try horses, unscrupulous dealers, etc.

I would NEVER suggest to anyone to just go to a racetrack and buy a horse - for the same reasons.

These kinds of buys are for people who are willing to resell and willing to take the 'pet' out of the picture. People who are better at judging a horse from the ground. The average amateur does not have the time, money, skill to deal with this. I do not think the average amateur adult that has been competing at Novice or Training for a few years necessarily has the skill and contacts to buy an appropriate thoroughbred directly from the track and retrain it. I think that is a mistake a LOT of people in all disciplines make. Riding that packer around does not make you a trainer.

I do agree with Craig on that. I do thinks $10K for a horse that will top out at Training level is a bit much -but what price would you put on getting the perfect horse for that timid amateur? Craig also does miss the whole backyard horse concept. For Training and below, I think these are fine - someone who wants to be competitive above training or someone that wants a guaranteed clean round on cross country coupled with clean stadium and nice dressage - a purpose bred may be nice to have.

[JER]

Craig would do himself a favor by not sounding like such a snob.

But then maybe he's looking for that special breed of 'discerning' client. :winkgrin:

[Bobthehorse]

There is a HUGE gap between OTTB and 30k. And I would say if someone paid over 15k for a horse that isnt going above Training, they got swindled! Especially if that 30k horse is also a purpose bred 2 year old, because for that kind of dough I would expect an obvious world class 2 year old, or an already trained mid level packer, not a an average 2 year old that wont make it past Training. You really dont need to spend that kind of money for a sane and sound N and T horse, not even close. I have had 2 very safe, very sane horses like this and both were under 8k.....and they were also both very winning boys! No fairy tale there, thats pretty much the norm IME. We have several LL provincial champs and reserve champs in my barn, all of them under 8k and most of them stock breeds.

[RAyers]

Mr. Thompson suffers from a regular case of athlete's mouth. Some of his ideas are sound but he can't get his ego out of the way when he presents them.

[Whisper]

It sounds like he meant "adult amateur who is new to eventing," specifically one who is looking to go BN or Novice. Sure, he probably should have been more specific, but I doubt he feels that all amateur adults are bad riders, just that the majority of AAs who come to him for help with horse shopping are in that category. I agree with other people that 10k sounds like way too much for a horse to do BN/Novice, since there are a lot of suitable horses who cost less. Also, keep in mind that the economy is different now than it was in '04, so the prices, and horse market in general are quite different. Even so, it sounds like most of the price on the horses he sold, at least the lower-level ones, were priced based on his connection to them, not their value based on what they'd done or their capability.

[enjoytheride]

I believe the article said that you should expect to spend 10K on a 2yo. If you want something you can event now you should expect to pay 15 - 30k.

What kinds of horses cost 10k as a 2yo? Warmbloods? Or do some TBs cost that much from small breeders not racing?

[LisaB]

:yes: Reed :yes:
His ego got in the way again when he didn't pass the icp
Ooops, did I just spread some gossip? Silly me.

[gardenie]

Hi,
I really get frustrated when folks have no idea how much it costs to produce a young horse and MAKE A PROFIT!

If you want a nice horse, then you should want the people producing them to make a good profit so they can have a life, maintain their farm, pay for vet bills that come inevitably with young horses.

So look at stud fees, 1500 for example. There are plenty of higher ones. Mare care at a stud farm is usually 10 a day. Low ball that at a month...300. Shots and vet care to bring mare into heat check for follicle check for foal...hmmm....lets low ball that 300. So we'll assume that the colt only needs shots and regular vet care and trimming...300 as a ball park per year...and then we have to feed that foal and mare, and so that is variable. No board fees...1500+300+300+600=2700 to get to two years old, and that doesn't even include feed, and the fact someone spends 15 minutes a day with that foal to two year old hopefully to make it a nice handleable horse. What is that worth in dollars? If you factor in what most Americans expect to be paid then 10k pays cost.

I get grumpy about this subject obviously, and I don't breed horses. But I know what it takes to produce a nice horse, and sorry folks, 3500 doesn't cut it.

[Janet]

I believe the article said that you should expect to spend 10K on a 2yo. If you want something you can event now you should expect to pay 15 - 30k.

What kinds of horses cost 10k as a 2yo? Warmbloods? Or do some TBs cost that much from small breeders not racing?

It really does COST $10,000 to raise a horse to 2YO. Whether you can SELL for that much is a different question.

Without boarding, and without factoring in labor, mortgage, insurance, and maintenance, I estimate about $2500 / year for feed, hay, bedding, ver and farrier. (Phyllis Dawson estimated twice that in a panel discussion about "breed ot buy".)

Add another $4000 to $5000 for stud fee, vet fees for breeding and foaling, and coat of keeping the mare.

The price of an object is what you can get for it, and many 2yo sell for less than that. Many breed and raise horses as a hobby, and don't need to recover all their costs. But it is a realistic estimate of what a 2 yo COSTS.

[Jagged]

Are Craig and Jan "together"????

[LisaB]

Uh, no. He's still with her ex-groom.

[magnolia73]

Hmmm- don't buy an OTTB, but go ahead and spend $10k for a purpose bred baby? Because it is so much safer and easier to have ammies out there training purpose bred horses than on OTTB's?

I suppose if your goals are to be very competitive and you are not that great of a rider, his advice is sage. (Except the 2 year old.) There is generally a safe horse for lower level eventing at any price point- you just need to compromise. For $25 k max out at training, you'd better win dressage, vet clean, be 8yo, pretty and self load on a trailer. :)

[Jealoushe]

I believe Mark Todd's Charisma was a backyard pony, good thing he didn't look that one by.

[deltawave]

Maybe some of these BNTs are just reflecting what their clientele is like. The "average" event rider, an amateur with one horse who does BN/N, maybe T with their good-but-not-great horse is not GOING to a BNT and working with them regularly, and is probably not shopping with one, either.

Riders who are "clients" of a BNT who trains and competes a lot are a little different, it seems to me, than this type--they may have more time and money to spend, and naturally that can often manifest itself as more skill and more competitiveness, when compared with someone who works, has a family, and maybe gets one lesson a week. (Hmmm, I resemble that remark!) :lol:

Since the dedicated "amateur" who really works hard at eventing, with a couple of horses, a long competition year, trips to Florida, intense and regular lessons, etc. is lumped in under the word "amateur" with the backyard riders who think it's great to get to 4-5 shows a year with their homebred critter or OTTB, I think it's not unreasonable to be surprised that the BNT definition of "amateur" is not applicable to everyone.

Since the "amateur" described by most pros doesn't even come close to resembling ME, I don't sweat it. I don't begrudge anyone the goal of making a living selling and training event horses. We wouldn't have a sport without trainers. But it is pretty clear that there are some BNTs out there with their heads in the clouds (not necessarily this author) who delude themselves that NOBODY can enjoy the sport unless they're riding a professionally chosen, schooled, and purchased horse. And that NOBODY can enjoy the sport without aspirations to be winning all the time. Phooey! :)

[Hony]

I believe Mark Todd's Charisma was a backyard pony, good thing he didn't look that one by.

Actually, I think Charisma had already done a great deal when Todd got him. If you look at his breeding you will see that although small he was a purpose bred horse, sired by Planet who had quite a bit of jump breeding in his pedigree.

The difference between an average TB and a horse bred to do the job is astronomical. Training a purpose bred horse is simpler because they are built and bred to do the job we ask of them. It's easy for them.

This is not to say that there aren't a ton of great TBs out there who will do the job but we need to remember that we get TBs cheap because to someone else (race trainer) they have failed and the money is already lost.

It costs on the low end $5000 to produce a foal. Tack on a few years of living and training and the cost goes up. Wait 'till they have failed at their job like a race horse and the cost goes down so that the owner can minimize the loss.

I did not find the article unreasonable, just realistic.

There are always going to be $1000 horses that go on and do more than the others but when you are looking at minimizing your own risk it makes sense to buy something that is bred to do the job.

[GotSpots]

I do think Craig unfortunately sometimes doesn't come across well in print, but there are some positive things in this article. The biggest issue I see here is that he conflates "amateur" with "beginner or inexperienced" - which is, I think, incorrect. Amateurs span a pretty wide scope of the sport (as do professionals) and there are certainly those amateurs who have eons more experience evaluating horses than your run of the mill entry level professional who has hung out a shingle.

That said, I don't disagree with the advice to get knowledgeable help when you're starting out, and to have a reasonable expectation for what is an appropriate horse for you. With the growing emphasis on safety, I think it's almost always a good thing to have the advice of folks who are actively competing in the sport and have a good idea of what your riding capabilities and goals are: someone who is familiar enough with you and educated enough to accurately assess a new horse to be able to remove the rose-colored glasses of "he's got a really pretty head" or "wow-look-at-that-trot" that we all can get and focus on the questionable conformation, funky jump, or refuses-to-go-into-water issue that might come along with it.

We've all seen the horse/rider match that is perennial evergreen: the pair who is a disaster in warm up, who gets around the course by dint of willpower leaving the spectators gasping, or the pair who cannot ever seem to lay down a round without a bowling score or a dressage test under 50 or the horse who will never be sound enough to go above BN even though its rider has dreams of a one star (in other words - not the pair that isn't winning all the time, but the ones who are so seriously and unsuccessfully struggling to get to competent at the level or to achieve their goals). I think many of these could be forestalled by having good help going in: by helping the rider/owner get a more educated sense on what horse would best suit them. I disagree that you have to pay serious money for that horse in all circumstances - but I do think that sometimes it's not a bad thing to find (and even pay a bit more upfront) for a horse who is a better fit for your needs/goals/life circumstances.

Look, I lived the Disney dream story: I had a spotted horse built with a post at each corner who moved like a sewing machine, and we brought him from the back of beyond/bucking off people at every ride/fire sale horse to successful eventer, top ten at Radnor, competing in the ribbons at Advanced. I can tell you this: we were amazingly lucky. We had very very good help along the way. And it was a ridiculously hard, expensive, and long process. I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunities that horse opened, and I loved him more than you can possibly imagine, but in hindsight, when it came time to buy the horse that would be "my" next horse, we found one who had been there/done that, and would already be a safe and appropriate amateur ride. And you know what? I'm having the time of my life on the new horse. He's not my spotted horse - he's entirely his own ride - but he's absolutely wonderful and I'm having a blast. The sport is supposed to be fun, particularly as an amateur. If a good professional or educated friend can help you find the horse that makes it fun - I saw go for it.

[bambam]

I doubt anyone disagrees with the idea that, while it may not be necessary, it doesn't hurt to have the input of your trainer in the purchase process and that, as a general proposition, inexperienced folks will be better off if they have a trainer involved in the process and probably stay away ottbs that came off the track yesterday. I certainly had my trainer look at my horses after I found and tried them but before I made the final decision to buy and so obviously I don't have a problem with that concept.
I think, however, the numbers he throws around are misguided and it smacks to me of "this is what I want/do sell my horses for and so I will write an article pitching those prices as necessary to get a decent horse". I also found the tone generally condescending towards all ammies and I am not convinced that this is not actually how he feels and it is merely a matter an inability to communicate well in writing.

[Kementari]

Well, I have to say, I went to the page and won't be bothering to even click on the articles, as the headers say "Buying and Event horse, an Insider's guide." If they can't check for such major typos right on the front page, I'm not going to bother to read any further.

Just call me a persnickity English major. (How *do* you spell persnickity?) :D

:lol:

Persnickety (;)) English majors unite!

Funny you should post on this thread, as I was about to say, "Let me tell you about the TB I got off the track (I didn't buy him from the track, but he hadn't had any training besides racing) as a teenage ammy, and somehow managed to not only survive with, but turned into a kids' packer." :winkgrin:

And then there's my Arab mare who I bought as a weanling for even less than the TB who, though she has yet to event (through time and financial constraints, not any lack of talent or training), gets tons of complements on her training and athleticism.

I'd buy an OTTB again in a heartbeat, too, if I were in the market for another horse. In fact, the track is the very first place I'd look - and I'd be looking to spend a FRACTION of $10 K. Though I grant you, I wouldn't be able to try the critter out over xc obstacles... :lol:

[Jealoushe]

Actually, I think Charisma had already done a great deal when Todd got him. If you look at his breeding you will see that although small he was a purpose bred horse, sired by Planet who had quite a bit of jump breeding in his pedigree.

The difference between an average TB and a horse bred to do the job is astronomical. Training a purpose bred horse is simpler because they are built and bred to do the job we ask of them. It's easy for them.

This is not to say that there aren't a ton of great TBs out there who will do the job but we need to remember that we get TBs cheap because to someone else (race trainer) they have failed and the money is already lost.

It costs on the low end $5000 to produce a foal. Tack on a few years of living and training and the cost goes up. Wait 'till they have failed at their job like a race horse and the cost goes down so that the owner can minimize the loss.

I did not find the article unreasonable, just realistic.

There are always going to be $1000 horses that go on and do more than the others but when you are looking at minimizing your own risk it makes sense to buy something that is bred to do the job.


My mistake, I thought when he tried him he was just a fattie in a feild.

[eventmom]

We've all seen the horse/rider match that is perennial evergreen: the pair who is a disaster in warm up, who gets around the course by dint of willpower leaving the spectators gasping, or the pair who cannot ever seem to lay down a round without a bowling score or a dressage test under 50 or the horse who will never be sound enough to go above BN even though its rider has dreams of a one star (in other words - not the pair that isn't winning all the time, but the ones who are so seriously and unsuccessfully struggling to get to competent at the level or to achieve their goals). I think many of these could be forestalled by having good help going in: by helping the rider/owner get a more educated sense on what horse would best suit them. I disagree that you have to pay serious money for that horse in all circumstances - but I do think that sometimes it's not a bad thing to find (and even pay a bit more upfront) for a horse who is a better fit for your needs/goals/life circumstances.

Yes, and we have also all seen the ones who buy more horse than they will ever be able to ride, and are just as unsafe as the former, if not more. It seems to me that it is ultimatly very dangerous to give people a false sense of their abilities by putting them on nice horses and not really developing then as riders. The bottom line is, you can't buy safety.

[LLDM]

The average amateur does not have the time, money, skill to deal with this.

The sad thing to me is that we have a whole bunch of people who are trying to buttonhole the "average amateur". None of the ami's I know are average. They differ drastically in skills, goals, circumstance and commitment level.

The whole Pro/Ami division is ridiculous and arbitrary - it's no wonder there is such a schism where there is no real basis for one. I know ami's with whom I would trust my horses and pro's - even BNT's - I would not let near my horses. And I know some Pro's I would trust completely and Ami's who aren't ever going to set foot in my barn. It has nothing whatsoever to do with their "status" as a Pro or Ami.

Equally - very few Ami are what the Pro's would like them to be and very few Pro's are what the Ami's want them to be either. At some point, those two want lists might grow back toward something that is more realistic on both sides and there might be room in the middle again.

The bottom line is, you can't buy safety.

Unless, of course, you have $250,000 and know the "right" BNT's with the "right" ponies that are guarenteed to pack Poopsie around 2' hunter courses and always finish in the ribbons. :winkgrin::lol:

Unfortunately, I want to know who is trying to convince perfectly good eventer Professionals that this is A) a good idea and B) that this business model actually works without C) selling one's soul to Satan.

Making a living in the horse industry is beyond hard - at least if you want to do so working with horses (not products or shows/events and even then it isn't much easier). But I swear by all that is Holy, if what happened to the hunters happens to eventing it will take what's left of the last bastion of real, fundamental horsemanship with it. :sigh:

SCFarm

[KSevnter]

This thread is an interesting read in conjunction with the one on codependency and trainers.

[Lori B]

Does anyone else think that it's a ridiculous oversimplification to lump all OTTBs together? There is such a wide variation in what one can find called an OTTB. It can go from horses you really do go up and buy at a track's backside, can't ride 'em there, etc. to horses who have been let down and will politely WTC and hop over little X's but haven't done much else but who have great quiet minds and are ready to go BN in just a few months, with the assistance of a good trainer and an appropriately competent rider.

You can find many attractive non-firebreathing OTTBs who have been let down and lightly restarted for under 10k here in MD. Hell, the reason a lot of them are ex-racers is that they are like my mare and have, instead of the look of eagles, the look of Bambi.

I think this guy sounds like a snob who doesn't much care that he doesn't understand what goes on outside of the stratosphere. I hope all of my friends on OTTBs tearing around the midatlantic regularly beat his clients who have more $$ than sense.

[ThirdCharm]

Re: OTTBs... I bought my TB stallion the day after his last race and he went on to compete successfully at Training and through 4'3" Jumpers and 2nd level dressage. When I bought him I was 22 and certainly nowhere near a professional. One of my students rides a mare I bought for $550 2 weeks after her last race, she has been a "student ride" since day one. Another OTTB (thrown in for free as a "twofer" deal when a client bought another horse) was packing a timid, elderly rider around the hunt field about six months later, went on to be the MFH's 12-year-old daughter's favorite hunt horse. Whip AND spurs to ride him, the first time I got on him I had neither and could barely make him walk!!

OTOH, most dangerous and difficult horse I ever rode would be a $15K purpose-bred warmblood bought by an Amateur on the advice of her trainer.

Assuming that all TBs are crazy/difficult is as useful as assuming that all Amateurs are incompetent, timid, weekend warriors, and that all Pros have their client's best interests in mind.

Jennifer

[deltawave]

It's silly to lump ANY group of individuals. Pros, amateurs, Thoroughbreds, warmbloods, young riders, etc. I am with LLDM on this one--there are "professional" riders out there who scare the cr*p out of me, and amateurs who are absolutely wonderful riders and horsepeople. Pigeonholing is a great way to rouse the rabble, but it's a lazy person's shortcut or a very blunt tool for actually making a compelling argument.

[Couture TB]

What I was talking about for the OTTBs are the ones that I buy RIGHT off the track. I don't even see these guys. Just purchase a few at a time from a trainer. Heck I use to get discounts after a certain horse number:lol: But that was back in the day that I could re sell them within a few months after re schooling. Would never sell them till they were safe though.

[tractor queen]

My frustration is with the seemingly interchangeable use of the word 'ammie' with 'inexperienced' whether it be to riding or just to eventing. Most of the ammies I know could ride circles around all but the most elite prof's in our sport.

Professional does not equate to competent, nor does adult ammie equate to incompetent.

If you mean inexperienced or novice then use that word!

...steps down off of soap box



K

[Ajierene]

The sad thing to me is that we have a whole bunch of people who are trying to buttonhole the "average amateur". None of the ami's I know are average. They differ drastically in skills, goals, circumstance and commitment level.

I was not clear in my original post. I did not mean to imply that all amateurs lack all these qualities, just that they lack one or more that make it more difficult to bring up a young horse or take a chance on a Thoroughbred bought from the track.

I do not consider this forum 'average', the majority here have been riding all their lives, working for trainers or live on a farm, among other things that makes them 'not average'. The average horse rider has to board a horse somewhere, work a minimum of 40 hours a week (often more, especially if they are in management), haul to a trainer, go a winter without a trainer if they live in the Northeast/Midatlantic region and the top trainers fly south for the winter.

These average people lack the time (jobs), or money (low paying jobs) or skill (reriders, people coming to the sport at a later age, people coming to horses at a later age), or a combination of the above.

There is nothing wrong with this, but there is something wrong with people chastising other people for a: advising that the above do NOT go directly to the track, especially by themselves to buy a thoroughbred, b: buying a purpose bred or a packer so that they can just go out and have fun at a show.

Some people like the training process. Some people that fit into the above category like the training process and are willing to accept lower goals in trade for training themselves. Some people just want a nice ride. There is nothing wrong with either one.

Also, Craig does not, anywhere, say 'don't by an ex-racer, ever', he suggests against buying a horse directly off the track or very recently off the track. I agree with this. This is not to say never by a horse that used to race, this is to caution your average (as described above) amateur against thinking their next advanced horse is that scrubby looking thoroughbred sitting in the trainer's barn with two bowed tendons, jewelry and that wild look in his eye. Or that really seemingly nice and quiet one with the oddly acting trainer.

Whether it is from the track or the auction, it is better for the average amateur of any sport to go to someone who works with horses from these areas and has taken them from the situation, worked with them, judged their 'real' personality and skills. That horse may be there for a month or a half a year or more, depending on the trainer, the horse, etc. (as an example - in high school the horses came straight from the track into the riding ring, were ridden right away by the experienced students, given 60 days of walk/trot -went from there. My current trainer likes to toss them out in a field for at least 3 months and not riding).

[IFG]

Tone of the article aside, the reality is that there are very few Amateurs who have $25,000 to spend on a horse. If eventing wants to grow, this is not the path to travel.

Frankly, my husband blanched at the $3000 I spent on my OTTB. As working middle class folks, that was hard enough for us to scrape together.

I left hunters because the cost had gotten out of sight. I don't think that eventing has a base to support a business model in which lower level horses routinely cost this much. IMHO, if you spend that type of dough, you want to get ribbons when you compete. Have we forgotten that in hunters or dressage you have a chance to get 2-8 ribbons in a day because you enter several classes per show per day, and these shows often run for multiple days landing a potential boat load of ribbons. In eventing, it is one ribbon per week-end. Maybe that is what is behind the loss of the long format.....

[Lori B]

ajierene, your post accurately and practically discusses the specifics when the article in question does neither. I think that most of the critics on this thread are offended by the general suggestion of the article that the only way to successfully participate in this sport is to throw a giant pile of money at the process, hand it to a BNT, and hope for a miracle. That's what many people came to eventing were seeking to avoid (ethos of hunter / jumper world)!!!

[IFG]

Forgot to add. Go back and read Sally O'Connor's Practical Eventing book section on selecting a horse, then read Craig Thompson's article.

What has happened to eventing?

[magnolia73]

I left hunters because the cost had gotten out of sight.

I moved my $3500 OTTB to a hunter barn. Suprisingly affordable and very supportive of me and my amateur unfriendly :lol: OTTB who is very quiet and reliable given pasture board. They focus on local shows. My horse could not win at an A show, but should do fine locally. Very fun people. Remind me a lot of some eventers! ;)

Probably eventing will get like hunters- local people with local horses going to local shows at affordable prices. Then there will be a top tier of people who spend, only do recognized and pay a lot of money. I think CT is probably catering to that top tier. And that advice is probably for that top tier.

[eventmom]

I suspect there are people at the top who would love the money involved with making eventing more like hunters. Problem is, it can't possibly happen, because unlike hunters, you are never going to ribbon based one who you know, your horses breeding, or how much you may have paid.
So, there will always be people riding "econo-nags":), and still being competitive:lol:
I think these guys look foolish when they start talking big money in eventing horses.
I don't have a problem with people spending lots on a horse. If that is what they want to do, go for it.
But, if the other half (the half that is out there successfully competing on backyard pets, OTTB's, or auction finds), is just ignored as though it does not exist, or is irrelivant, it makes these guys look dishonest.
If they have a place in the market, they should hold their head high and speak up about why it is appropriate to offer horses at that price. What makes these horses more valuable to your average eventer than buying , say, an OTTB? Otherwise, they just look like swindlers.

[Lori B]

There is nothing I love more than going to an HT and looking into the warmup ring and seeing little fat ponies, draft x's, TBs, paints, WBs, shaggy grade horses all cleaned up and trotting around happily. It's a democracy that arises from caring what horses and riders can do together and not what they look like. I never hear anyone say about an eventing prospect that they can do the job but they don't have the right 'look' and are therefore not a good prospect.

CT's article seems to be completely out of touch with this ethos. And that is why it frosts my cupcakes.

[JER]

Great post, LLDM.

[eventer80]

I agree completely Lori B!! I have shown successfully in tons of different disciplines but choose eventing because of the diversity. Not only in the training but in the horses. A horse is worth what someone will pay for him and to some people just to ride a horse they like is meeting their goal. Don't discount the little QH cross that doesn't move well and always takes rails. He may be worth $300 to the rest of us but is worth $150,000 to his rider!!! It's about what the rider wants and his or her goals are!!!

I do take offense to the tone of the article. Eventing is very much an independent sport and he is missing the point, I think, as to why people event............We like our horses, we like the process, and we like the challenge. Now, maybe his clients DO just want to be packed around on fancy horses. That is fine and I think they should get what they want. JUST DON'T PRESUME US (the ammy's)TO ALL HAVE THE SAME GOALS, ASPIRATIONS, AND SKILLS!!

Also, I (this is a collective I, not me specifically) don't buy a $30,000 horse just because I am too poor................I just have other goals and things that are of value to me........


** Please excuse me for any misspellings..........I am trying to type fast and get back to work***

[ThirdCharm]

Great point, eventmom. When EVERYONE in eventing knows some kid or amateur who is in fact competing, winning, etc. with a $500-3000 horse, it makes trainers who spout the "$25K for a Novice horse or if you want a bargain get a $10K baby" looks like idiots or crooks.

A far more realistic (and less offensive) article would have pointed out the pros and cons of the different approaches, or at least ACKNOWLEDGED that an amateur with the skill, time, etc. to replace a big wallet can have success--since all of us know many people fitting that description. Might not have helped the pro's agendas though!

I, alas, disagree that it is not possible for eventing to go the route of hunters, EVENTUALLY. Sure, the judging is more objective, and riders who are willing to put in the hours instead of the bucks will always exist.... BUT.... in a couple generations, who will be left to TEACH future ammies who do choose the cheap route? If the current crop of UL pros are mostly interested in teaching "deep pockets" to pay a commission and collect ribbons instead of ride...? Ten, fifteen years from now who is going to teach the ammy with a OTTB how to train it? Fewer and fewer pros know what to do with a horse that didn't come out of the womb in collected canter.

Jennifer

[Brandy76]

Exactly, I was having this conversation about this article this am at my lesson - my trainer is an ULR. I was sitting on my ottb econnag.

I agree with thirdcharm, there will always be those of us for who the ride and the horsemanship is the point, but there are an alarming number of those coming to the sport who have lots of money, and essentially want the ribbons and glory, and are willing to pay for it. Nothing wrong with that, but it is already inherently changing the culture of the sport - and may even be part of the reason for the increase in accidents? This sport has always seemed to me to be designed around the good horsemanship, hours in the saddle types. Not to take anything away from other disciplines, but in eventing you can't just buy the made, fancy horse and always get it done. The possibility for injury is way higher. The stakes are not just a stinky dressage test, or a not so pretty round.

It seems that everything CT puts out there is to driver the "new business model" - and if it works for him, so be it, I just still hope the sport does not become dominated by those like that and the minority are the old timers.

And, yes, I am a 40 something ammy, and yes, I picked him up directly from the track! And so far, he's doing great.

I hope there are still enough of us out there to continue on...

[Duramax]

If you mean inexperienced or novice then use that word!


Agreed! :yes:

[Jagged]

Great point, eventmom. When EVERYONE in eventing knows some kid or amateur who is in fact competing, winning, etc. with a $500-3000 horse, it makes trainers who spout the "$25K for a Novice horse or if you want a bargain get a $10K baby" looks like idiots or crooks.
A far more realistic (and less offensive) article would have pointed out the pros and cons of the different approaches, or at least ACKNOWLEDGED that an amateur with the skill, time, etc. to replace a big wallet can have success--since all of us know many people fitting that description. Might not have helped the pro's agendas though!

I, alas, disagree that it is not possible for eventing to go the route of hunters, EVENTUALLY. Sure, the judging is more objective, and riders who are willing to put in the hours instead of the bucks will always exist.... BUT.... in a couple generations, who will be left to TEACH future ammies who do choose the cheap route? If the current crop of UL pros are mostly interested in teaching "deep pockets" to pay a commission and collect ribbons instead of ride...? Ten, fifteen years from now who is going to teach the ammy with a OTTB how to train it? Fewer and fewer pros know what to do with a horse that didn't come out of the womb in collected canter.

Jennifer

Exactly. I also find it great when children, on their half-bred quarter ponies that cost them a few pennies, beat the Craigs of the world, on their imported blah-blah-blah horse. :lol: I find it entirely satisfying. I am such a bad person!

[blackwly]

My frustration is with the seemingly interchangeable use of the word 'ammie' with 'inexperienced' whether it be to riding or just to eventing. Most of the ammies I know could ride circles around all but the most elite prof's in our sport.

Professional does not equate to competent, nor does adult ammie equate to incompetent.

If you mean inexperienced or novice then use that word!

...steps down off of soap box



I agree completely. I am happily in possession of offical amateur status. But, I got my USPC "A" at 16, and have brought 2 horses from unbroken to the CCI** level. I rode one of those in the NAYRC CCI** and won a long format 3 day in a field of >100 on the other. I've also brought 2 OTTB (directly from the track) to intermediate before lameness issues sidelined them. When my mother was alive, she ran a breeding/training business and I broke probably between 20 and 30 young warmbloods and crosses, and did all the jump training and competing on any horse we still owned by the appropriate age.

I am in no way ashamed to be an "amateur" now...in fact I'm proud of the fact that I've accomplished a lot on horseback WHILE pursuing a non-horsey career. But it is quite irritating to me that the word "amateur" is someone synonomous with "green" or worse yet "bumbling idiot on horseback that needs a $35,000 saint to survive XC." There are amateurs that ride at Rolex. There are amateurs who can outride most pros. There are also amateurs who are pleasure riders. Painting all with one brush is idiotic. Just because someone doesn't CHOOSE to make a living with horses doesn't mean one couldn't, or that one is an inferior horseperson.

Don't get me wrong...I know I don't ride as well as most pros. These days I ride one horse 5 or 6 times a week and compete when I can, purely for the enjoyment of it. But to say that I'm not enough of a horseman to make decisions for myself about what mount I need/want to buy is insulting.

[silver pine]

I believe the Olympic gold medal winner this year is an Ammie. He is a full time dentist and managed to beat out all the BNT and BNR on his TB. Thats getting the job done in my mind. I have far more respect for his accomplishments than people who do not have to balance the "real world" with riding.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I
What kinds of horses cost 10k as a 2yo? Warmbloods? Or do some TBs cost that much from small breeders not racing?


10K for well breed (sport breed) TB, TB cross or Warmblood cross is a deal. If they are correct, good movers, and have shown a little scope/good form free jumping....first, you will be lucky to even be able to buy them...and second...they will be more than 10K unless the breeder is in a fire sale situation. At 10K...most breeders wouldn't be making any money on them. Most will price them at least at 25K if not higher and not necessarily expect them to sell....because they will hang on to them a bit longer, start them and make substantially more than that. There are rather large up front costs and time in cooking that nice prospect....and they expect to see a return. An OTTB, on the other hand....was probably already bought and sold for well more than that....and then failed at the job for which they were breed so are basically worthless to the race folks...which is why they are cheap.

I love OTTBs....and will have another in the future I'm sure...but I do admit, not having to deal with the track baggage is very very nice. I also don't think the average EVENTER (not amateur) needs to buy a youngster....as with the OTTBs...you need a certain skill set to bring along a young horse or retrain an OTTB. It is a great skill set to develop....but it isn't for everyone and you run the risk that the youngster doesn't want to be an eventer and must be ready to deal with that.

Didn't read the article.....figured, I know how to buy and how to make an eventer....and yes, I'm also an amateur....and agree, being an amateur doesn't mean you don't know what you are doing. Even if your riding may not be as sharp as someone who rides 10 horses a day....you can still have the knowledge, experience and eye.....and sometimes still ride better than those that DO ride 10 horses a day;).

[deltawave]

I believe the Olympic gold medal winner this year is an Ammie. He is a full time dentist and managed to beat out all the BNT and BNR on his TB.

I don't think Marius is a TB, but would love to be shown to be wrong. :) I love that horse and rider pair--they gave me goosebumps! :yes:

[eventmom]

10K for well breed (sport breed) TB, TB cross or Warmblood cross is a deal. If they are correct, good movers, and have shown a little scope/good form free jumping....first, you will be lucky to even be able to buy them...and second...they will be more than 10K unless the breeder is in a fire sale situation. At 10K...most breeders wouldn't be making any money on them. Most will price them at least at 25K if not higher and not necessarily expect them to sell....because they will hang on to them a bit longer, start them and make substantially more than that. There are rather large up front costs and time in cooking that nice prospect....and they expect to see a return. An OTTB, on the other hand....was probably already bought and sold for well more than that....and then failed at the job for which they were breed so are basically worthless to the race folks...which is why they are cheap.
The real kicker to me is that there is in fact room in the market for those expensive purpose bred eventers. Bornfree makes some good points. I know they are expensive to breed, and I don't begrudge anybody an income.
I have no problem with folks breeding and selling and making money on them. I suppose that my family might even end up buying one some day (if we win the lottery!) To have the luxury of buying a nice horse bred for the job would be awesome! And well worth the money if you can afford it.
My problem is the arrogance in not acknowledging that there are other ways to be successfull in the sport.
Again, just ignoring what is painfully obvious to most of us is not going to help the cause.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I don't think Marius is a TB, but would love to be shown to be wrong. :) I love that horse and rider pair--they gave me goosebumps! :yes:


Not a full TB...he is a Holstiener (sire was a TB and dam a Holstiener). Actually very well bred for sport.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/marius25

[sidepasser]

I don't event but I do go to eventing shows to watch and have jump judged in the past and also scribed a time or three. What I have always loved about eventing is that "anyone can do it". Anyone being a person who has the determination, drive and dedication to put into developing themselves and their pony into a great team.

I've seen all sorts of horses at eventing shows. Some were probably high bred high dollar horses, but then I've seen the OTTBs, the backyard poneighs, the little thelwells for the kids, just hopping over the wee fences, the QH's, Apps, Paints and literally everything in between.

Some do well and some don't but it doesn't appear that any were "locked out" because they didn't spend uber amounts on their horse. What did appear to happen (after talking to many folks who were competing) is that they took their horse and made the horse the best they could be.

Seems that eventing is an equal opportunity club, where you can take lessons, and yet still be independent enough not to require a trainer on hand at every turn.

I wanted to event, even adopted an OTTB just for the job, but he proved to be a bit too much for my old body to handle, but..he's a happy horse doing his job foxhunting. I have 3 OTTB's. One I rode extensively, she was a bit "hot" but not mean just excited, like "ooh mom, we are going trail riding???" (imagine Odie the dog from the comic strip!) never had a mean bone in her body and tried her little TB heart out for me. I mostly pleasure rode her, but did do a lot of arena work as well. My other OTTB was a handful and sent straight off to a trainer to be educated, again never mean, just more horse than I bargained for, he's had a LOT of training and is a super citizen for his younger rider. The third, goodness, you need dynamite to set him off - lol.. He's a class act all the way, and in training for hunter classes..and just went to his first "big" show..and placed well in all his classes. He's still a baby brain though at age 6 and so didn't expect great shakes out of him.

Point is...getting an OTTB is like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates..you never know exactly what you may get, but none of mine have ever been mean, or lacking try or work ethic. I don't recommend them for people who have never ridden (straight off the track that is), or people who don't have a trainer (straight off the track again) as they do come with some things that some folks wouldn't understand...like standing still to mount, tying in cross ties, etc. But if the person getting one would do as I did and send the horse to a qualified trainer for a period of time, they would be amazed at the difference when the horse comes back.

BTW - all of mine are leased..the mare I rode all the time..she's toting tots around at therapy riding, (loves her job getting fussed over and brushed), the hunter - and the foxhunter - any can come home here and if I never ride them - they have a home for life.

I'd adopt another now that I have a trainer, but sadly I can't ride the trotters anymore and have a wonderful pleasure walking horse that I ride. I like OTTBs, they are FULL of personality and I love watching the eventers go..they too are full of personality and a "stick to itness" that I admire.

While I can't event, I can go and show my support and if time allows, volunteer to jump judge again and scribe if needed. I know that there are great people in eventing and unlike other disciplines, even a backyard "mutt' can succeed give a chance and the opportunity!

[frugalannie]

Going to make some huge generalizations here; please do not flame, but feel free to express otherwise.

Based on the thirty or so horses I have owned, (1/3 have been homebreds that I trained to be rideable, 5 have been OTTBs with no middleman and 4 were warmblood or WBXs with the remainder repurposed from some other career) I have to say that the "pretrained", WB or WBX horses were in many ways more user-friendly. They were more tolerant of my mistakes because they were less sensitive in the sense of going zero to 60 in an explosion, which has been a feature of every TB I've had. The "tolerant" group almost had to be trained to be more sensitive. The TB group has to be trained to accept the aids without explosion if it isn't perfect (which given it's me is rarely achieved). I can see folks paying for that: it does translate to greater rideability for the less experienced pilot and it has a worth.

So having said, my most recent acquisitions have all been direct OTTBs, but my breeding plan is to cross them (all mares, natch) with an exceptional warmblood stallion to get the horse of my dreams for my retirement. Because I love, LOVE working with OTTBs and babies. I don't think in any way that I'm the typical amateur, however, and for anyone, pro or otherwise to denigrate the process I have chosen, educated myself for and been successful at strikes me as short-sighted and small-minded.

[magnolia73]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't event but I do go to eventing shows to watch and have jump judged in the past and also scribed a time or three. What I have always loved about eventing is that "anyone can do it". Anyone being a person who has the determination, drive and dedication to put into developing themselves and their pony into a great team.

And that is true of all disciplines. If your goal is to be the best you and your horse can be, safely.... please, money doesn't matter.

I do think that the desire to win and be the best is different from taking satisfaction in your own performance. It does take a little more to be a consistent winner in any company, and it does take a fancier horse. Truth is, not so likely that homely QH/Appy cross is going to have the dressage score that tops a 20 horse BN division full of warmbloods at a big show. BUT, the other truth is that for most of us, whatever discipline, it isn't about the ribbons.

I think BNT are expected to provide success for some clients. They don't have the luxury of clients who giggle at a dressage score of 50 or a run out. Or who are just happy they got around with no stops.

[LLDM]

What did appear to happen (after talking to many folks who were competing) is that they took their horse and made the horse the best they could be.


Sidepasser - I think I love you! :winkgrin:

SCFarm

[clm08]

I am sure glad I didn't read Craig's articles before my DD decided to try eventing! We have 2 econo-nag Arabs - yes the breed everyone seems to think cannot jump, is too wound up for a decent dressage test, etc etc. DD did her second eventing season last year on one of our horses and brought home some nice looking ribbons. She went to AEC's and lamented how "out of place" her horse looked against those very nice warmbloods and TB's around us. It didn't help that we were stabled next to the gorgeous young WBs competing in the YEH, and a few rows down from Windfall...:cool:
But this is eventing after all, where success is not measured by what your horse looks like, but by how strong a partnership you have forged with your mount. DD is qualified again for AEC's this year, this time at Novice, and we will proudly bring our econo-nag Arab again!:)

[Gry2Yng]

I believe the article said that you should expect to spend 10K on a 2yo. If you want something you can event now you should expect to pay 15 - 30k.

What kinds of horses cost 10k as a 2yo? Warmbloods? Or do some TBs cost that much from small breeders not racing?

There are plenty. That is not to say that anyone/everyone needs one, but they are out there. There are also OTTB's for $20K straight off the track. A lot of those horses could continue to race and might eventually become $5K horses. High goal polo players tend to pluck the nice ones at that price. The occasional eventer will do it too. People place different values on different things. A $10K 2yo has some qualities an OTTB won't and vice versa. I think someone else mentioned, it does cost $10K to get them to 2 years old.

[enjoytheride]

So then how many ammys would purchase a 10K 2yo to jump around BN and Novice?

[Kap]

So then how many ammys would purchase a 10K 2yo to jump around BN and Novice?

Hell to the no.

[Bensmom]

I am one of those ammies that Craig would say has no business with an OTTB, though I've had 3 so far, and I've never gone above Novice and scared plenty of people who have watched me jump.

But, I'm not commenting here to make that point, but rather to make the point that the most challenging ride in my barn isn't the OTTBs with the track jewelry. It is the already made, has done a couple of 1*s and done well, jumping machine.

I would guess that 90% of the people that get on him cannot ride him or cannot ride him well. And some of those have been pros. If he can, he'll unload you quickly if he doesn't like the way you ride, if not, well, he just won't go well for you.

Buying a horse like that, even if you have the $25k he was priced for for several years ago, would have fit Craig's article, but wouldn't have been any safer ride for many folks than a green OTTB.

I think the biggest problem with the article that has been pointed out here is that it is just too simple. The best way to buy a good event horse is to consider your needs, your abilities and get some honest, non biased help in looking. There just isn't any a+B =c formula for how to do it and an article like that one misses the boat.

Or, you could do what I do and let them find you. (WARNING - not recommended! very expensive and occasionally heartbreaking! :lol: )

[Ajierene]

ajierene, your post accurately and practically discusses the specifics when the article in question does neither. I think that most of the critics on this thread are offended by the general suggestion of the article that the only way to successfully participate in this sport is to throw a giant pile of money at the process, hand it to a BNT, and hope for a miracle. That's what many people came to eventing were seeking to avoid (ethos of hunter / jumper world)!!!

Thank you for the compliment. I guess that is where I read Craig different than other people. I think he has a different worldview than some people and possibly a more narrow one. He works with clients looking for something akin to a Prelim or Intermediate 'packer'. That is not to say an already made horse, or a complete push button ride, but the amateurs he most likely works with are the ones that have a higher goal than other amateurs, or ones that have been around the block a few times on some rank horses and just want something they can enjoy, and have more extra money than time to put towards a horse. Nothing wrong with that, just when you are working 70 hours a week in upper management you most likely have more money than time.

Due to the nature of his business, he doesn't 'see' the amateur out there on the backyard pony having fun with a dressage score of 50. His clients want at least a good chance of a 30 dressage score and at least not jumping faults.

I liken it to a lady I worked with one summer. She was old money - her great grandfather had made the family fortune and her father had never worked a day in his life, let alone her. She was in her 70's when I worked with her and would often make comments wondering why people didn't just buy what they needed or pay for medical care that was necessary for themselves or their horses. Without blinking an eye, she sent and overweight gelding in his mid to late 20's to New Bolton for colic surgery (and unintended liposuction). He recovered fine - but she just did not understand why everyone didn't do this. She was VERY nice, just a different worldview.

I liken Craig to this - he's not trying to seem arrogant or mean to the 'average amateur', just trying to help what he sees at the average amateur buy a horse for eventing.

[magnolia73]

Due to the nature of his business, he doesn't 'see' the amateur out there on the backyard pony having fun with a dressage score of 50. His clients want at least a good chance of a 30 dressage score and at least not jumping faults.


I agree- you have two groups- people who do it to win and people who do it for fun.

I think there will always be a place for both. Honestly, there are a ton of people who ride for whom $25,000 is a downpayment on a house. Or a year's income. They will never be accomodated by BNT's and will always appreciate the smaller local trainer. I switched back to hunters- totally braced for the barrage of "sell the horse", "OK, fee+fee+fee+fee...". Pleasantly suprised by the quality of my trainer, the reasonable fees, the respect for my opinion and my desire to train and care for my own horse. I can even jump on my own! That this type of barn is flourishing in the hunter world probably bodes well for the event barns where the unfancy horses and riders on a budget exist. It doesn't mean that I will win the AO classes at Devon next year, but it means I can participate in a discipline I enjoy on my horse at my budget.

Looking back at that article- some people write articles to support a business. Usualy we write about our experiences. A great counterpoint would be if someone wrote an article "Event on a Budget" and recorded how to do it- and what to expect from the view point of someone "on a budget".

[Kairoshorses]

oooohhh, I love that idea--"Buying an event horse, for the rest of us" or "Buying and event horse, for those of us on a budget"!

I don't know if I qualify, though until recently I never spent more than 3500 on a horse, and I've had....several.....ranging from QH to arabs to OTTBs to WBs.

I learned to ride on a QH (and my neighbor's welsh pony).

I learned to jump on an OTTB.

I learned to "listen" on a WB.

I've never ridden above N, AND never gotten anything trained more than *I* was.....but as I age (and DANG, that's happening fast!), I'm thinking I really WOULD like a horse who knows more than I do...and I think that's what folks should pay for. But it's taken me until "old age" to be able to afford those miles!! And what a long, strange, but FUN trip it's been....

[retreadeventer]

My thoughts so far:

1. This thread, and comments, and frequent mentions of names....has done MORE to PROMOTE this person's business than thousands of dollars worth of ads in horse magazines like The Chronicle. Discussion has unintended consequences...driving awareness to someone's website and business.

2. Read the press release about the Professional Event Riders' meeting. There is no mention of other competitors at all. They are only interested in what they term "professional event riders", owners, organizers, and spectators. (If any). Among the many items mentioned in the organization's purpose statements, I just could not find anything really there along the lines of "pledging the professionals to high standards in training students", or "attention to safety among students and clients while eventing or participating in the sport" etc. If anyone can remotely stretch something in those statements to the majority of the people involved in this sport, please point it out - and then explain why it isn't prominent. If this group is modeled after European counterparts, well, there is a reason we fought the Revolutionary War - to get out from under tyranny -- hello? Anyone there? Earth to PER?

3. Conclusion: ignorance of 90 percent of eventing will sink your boat before it sails. I have one caveat, however. Unity, no matter what form, is a good thing for the sport.

Putting together a group and having a good set of rules and principles is a good thing.

Keep it simple.

Think of the big picture.

Be inclusive, if not, to your peril.

Be mindful of the press and of your perception and publicity, however intended, or unintended.

That's my warning. (Been there, done that - have had many many nights of meetings forming committees and purpose statements and the scars to prove it.)
Good luck! :)

[LisaB]

Hmmm, unintended consequences. Maybe, maybe not. Bad press is better than no press is my impression. He has unintentionally painted himself into a corner. Us, the majority of amateur eventers, will probably not look at his site for our next eventer. Why? Because we don't have 25-50k to plop down on a horse. I think in his world, he doesn't see the majority of eventers out there who go out, maybe have a good day, maybe not, but we certainly don't have a spotlight shining on us. We go about our business with our econonags and he doesn't see us. And we probably won't ride with him.
So, here's a question. How many riders have the expensive experienced horse and consistently won over the econonags? I mean besides having an experienced horse that you don't have to teach what the hell a water/bank/ditch are, do they really win over the econonag that's been trained well up to that level?

[Lori B]

ajierene, I think you accurately read that article. But it's the narrowness of CT's view of eventing that is as troubling as anything else he says. I think folks like the heterogeneity of this sport's participants, both human and equine, and efforts to narrow it are rightly perceived as an affront to the spirit of the sport.

I cannot help but add that my OTTB and I stayed well below 50 last season in dressage, somehow, without a BNT or a 5 figure cash injection. ;-)

[magnolia73]

do they really win over the econonag that's been trained well up to that level?

I think if you had a class:
#1. $25,000 Novice Eventer Warmblood " Talent Mc Good Mover"piloted by an excellent rider
#2. $3500 OTTB "Sort of Tense, But Floaty" with talent piloted by an inexperienced rider
#3. $25,000 Novice Eventer Warmblood "Mc GoodMover and Dead Easy" piloted by inexperienced rider
#4. $3500 OTTB "Nice, nice horse- Second Time Out!" piloted by hey, technically you could be a pro
#5. $7500 QH- "Nice Guy, moves like a cement mixer and always 4 faults jumping" ridden by inexperienced rider

I think #1 would always win, #2 would always be last. 3/4/5 would always compete with each other and it would come down to who has the better day.

A nice horse ridden by an excellent rider- always going to be hard to beat!

[RAyers]

This is a sad statement on the pitiful state of eventing and I believe exemplifies why the sport has changed for the worse (in my opinion). If a good mover "always" wins then the focus on the horse and rider is in the wrong place based on what eventing's once was. Yes, this is what eventing is now and this is why Craig Thompson and others like him will have a strong clientele.

I agree with Lori B. CT has insulted, unintentionally, many amateurs at all levels of the sport but he seems to do that on a regular basis.

I think if you had a class:
#1. $25,000 Novice Eventer Warmblood " Talent Mc Good Mover"piloted by an excellent rider
#2. $3500 OTTB "Sort of Tense, But Floaty" with talent piloted by an inexperienced rider
#3. $25,000 Novice Eventer Warmblood "Mc GoodMover and Dead Easy" piloted by inexperienced rider
#4. $3500 OTTB "Nice, nice horse- Second Time Out!" piloted by hey, technically you could be a pro
#5. $7500 QH- "Nice Guy, moves like a cement mixer and always 4 faults jumping" ridden by inexperienced rider

I think #1 would always win, #2 would always be last. 3/4/5 would always compete with each other and it would come down to who has the better day.

A nice horse ridden by an excellent rider- always going to be hard to beat!

[Janet]

So, here's a question. How many riders have the expensive experienced horse and consistently won over the econonags? I mean besides having an experienced horse that you don't have to teach what the hell a water/bank/ditch are, do they really win over the econonag that's been trained well up to that level? I think the point is that, once it has been "trained well up to that level", it is unlikely to still be an "econonag".

If the rider is not capable of doing the "training up" herself (which seems to be the audience he is addressing) then "the econonag that's been trained well up to that level" is not really an option.

[LisaB]

I've been out of the buying loop Janet so forgive me. You're saying that my econonag, not pretty but a decent mover but not great that I trained from nothing with the help of my trainer is now worth a lot of money? Like more than 15k?

[magnolia73]

If a good mover "always" wins then the focus on the horse and rider is in the wrong place based on what eventing's once was.

It's not just good mover (lol, bad name on my part)- the really nice horses are generally a package that doesn't pull a rail either. Who spends $25,000 on a nice mover that pulls rails and stops too? Unless they are doing dressage?

There are just some nice horses that you are not going to beat on a modest horse unless you have pilot error. I've sat with many dressage judges- that fancy warmblood comes in and 9 times out of 10, it is better than the performances of the other horses. A trot circle with a horse that naturally carries himself perfectly is going to get better points than one that does not. They can't take points off for spurious reasons. And at novice and BN speed is not a factor, and the jumps are simple enough.

It's really hard to create a level playing field in equestrian sports. I think that is why people who last a long time don't really care about winning ribbons. Someone always just bought the best horse ever.... You can't "handicap" them. It just is what it is.

[Janet]

I've been out of the buying loop Janet so forgive me. You're saying that my econonag, not pretty but a decent mover but not great that I trained from nothing with the help of my trainer is now worth a lot of money? Like more than 15k?
Not sure about this year. But up until last year, (Training or above, and will go well for others, not just you) probably.

[Ajierene]

ajierene, I think you accurately read that article. But it's the narrowness of CT's view of eventing that is as troubling as anything else he says. I think folks like the heterogeneity of this sport's participants, both human and equine, and efforts to narrow it are rightly perceived as an affront to the spirit of the sport.

I cannot help but add that my OTTB and I stayed well below 50 last season in dressage, somehow, without a BNT or a 5 figure cash injection. ;-)

I'm not arguing that! I am just saying I do not think he realizes it. Like people that lived in the country their whole life and are astounded by the size of the buildings when they get to the city -or that the city is actually cleaner than they thought, etc. Of course, if they never get to the city, they never realize these things.

I think this is where Craig is - he has yet to 'get to the city'. Poor guy, but reading the article from that perspective makes him seem less arrogant and more ignorant - poor ignorant man!

And my mare has not gotten about a 42 in dressage in years, mostly in the low 30's. Unfortunately she is not off the track and appreciates if the other thoroughbreds would stop making fun of her for not having a tattoo when she goes to shows - it really hurts her feelings. It is not, after all, her fault that she was born on a race horse breeding farm with an owner so out of whack people refused to train his horses! Poor girl....

[Hilary]

But in this example:

think if you had a class:
#1. $25,000 Novice Eventer Warmblood " Talent Mc Good Mover"piloted by an excellent rider
#2. $3500 OTTB "Sort of Tense, But Floaty" with talent piloted by an inexperienced rider
#3. $25,000 Novice Eventer Warmblood "Mc GoodMover and Dead Easy" piloted by inexperienced rider
#4. $3500 OTTB "Nice, nice horse- Second Time Out!" piloted by hey, technically you could be a pro
#5. $7500 QH- "Nice Guy, moves like a cement mixer and always 4 faults jumping" ridden by inexperienced rider


Number 1 is not JUST a good mover. He is also ridden by an excellent rider. That's why he wins over the rest of the class. The best mover in the world won't win if he isn't ridden well (so horse #3 will place behind horse #1) but he does have a step up from the sewing machine mover if both are ridden by the same rider. Because like it or not, gaits ARE part of the judging in dressage.

Also, we need to remove "warmblood" and "OTTB" from these examples - because I've seen lots of crappy warmbloods and lots of really nice TBs from the track and purpose bred. People get all riled up when they think someone insinuates OTTBs are not nice horses or that the easy good moving horse is always a warmblood.

I were of unlimited funds and needed a new event horse I would probably buy one who has been trained to the level I wanted to compete at and doing well there. I have had plenty of opportunities with horses "2, 4 & 5" and it would be nice to have a horse who is really easy to ride and already trained and they aren't cheap because someone else has already taken the chance on them and put in the time to train them.

[Centuree]

Craig wants to make money. Thats the bottom line, and I'm sure he is fully aware that people can develop cheap horses and win and be safe, but why would he say that on his event horse sales webpage? He is a businessman.

Now - I have to disagree with a lot of you guys on this thread saying you need an expensive horse, good mover, purpose bred to win the dressage, or at least score well consistently. I think dressage is truly an equalizer, a talented rider can make a shetland pony look fancy!

Yes, you need to do way more work to build up muscles for your ottb to collect, engage, and sit, as they are not bred for that. But I have seen it done countless times.

The rider is what makes the difference in dressage. If you had two equally talented riders, one on a purpose bred Wb, the other on a QH, your right, the WB would win. But rider talent carries as much diversity or more as horse talent. You put in the work, the time, the discipline, you can seriously kick butt in the dressage ring on your Qh or Tb or whatever. You can significantly change your horses trot if you have the know how.

[LisaB]

Centuree, I think you're hitting upon something.
So, how many of us really really really want to learn how to ride? Most us will raise our hands and most of us have the econonag. How many of us want to go out and do novice next week on a new horse and have a shot at winning even if we don't really know how to ride the horse? I've been in the situation where a person wants me to buy an expensive horse so I can show and win. Why? Because they couldn't teach me how to win on an average horse. So, basically buy the ride.
At the AEC's, I saw a lot of ex-Adv/Int horses doing the lower levels with riders that weren't as knowledgeable as they were. Which is great. They get to get hooked on the eventing drug but at what expense? Do they really want to learn to ride a horse? Or, do they just want to win a ribbon?

[LisaB]

Eh, true Born. BUT I am seeing quite a bit that those ex ULH's are much more packer-like than in years past. They basically have that proverbial wart on their back and still winning.
Sure, that's great. It's ideal in fact when starting out. I guess what I'm saying is that in year's past, we would never see a rider continue with the 'eventing packer' and keep buying the 'eventing packer'. They would move on to more of a challenge (i.e. a greenie) or more than likely, move up the levels.
So, Craig has to make a buck. What else can he do but get a dressage horse that can jump a little. Have it winning at the low levels and sell it for big $$.
He really isn't far off the mark about what's needed in order to do really well. Or, make your life easier when buying a horse. I guess I'm old school because I had the funds to buy and expensive horse and I get an Amish reject on the side of an icy mountain that's been ridden 4 times.

[yellowbritches]

Thanks, BFNE. You beat me to it. Just because someone goes out and buys a horse that was going at a level way above them doesn't mean their ass is getting packed around and they aren't learning anything. Yes, that can be what happens, but that isn't the rule. In fact, one of our clients struck gold late last fall when she was able to buy a nice intermediate horse to do BN and N on (and maybe training, one day? ;)). He is everything she needs. Safe, reliable, sound (well, except for that abcess he has right now), cute, friendly. BUT she has definitely had to learn to ride him. You don't get on him and push a button and he automatically goes round. He isn't point and shoot at the fences, and he's a little quirky. He's a much different horse from her last horse (who draaaaaggggged her down to the fences), and a lot different from everything else she has ridden a great deal (first full TB, which can be hard to get used to when you aren't used to that kickass TB canter!). He's a good, good boy and worth his weight in gold and precisely what she needs. He probably falls into the "packer" category, but he isn't a push button, show him the dressage test and the course map and he'll take care of the rest kind of a horse. She got him so she can have fun and be safe and so she can learn from HIM, not so she can go out and win without putting in the effort. And I think the majority of people who buy this type of horse probably would tell you the same thing. They buy it because it has been there and done that and is safe, reliable and fun to ride. But it isn't because the horse is going to win them lots of ribbons. Ribbons are probably just a bonus (as they should be for everyone).

[poltroon]

I think I'd like to add to this discussion that you can still get hurt on an expensive horse. Even an expensive packer horse. In fact, one might be safer on a less expensive, less athletic horse.

[retreadeventer]

Wins are incredibly elusive in this sport. Ask Phillip Dutton. Hell, ask anyone who has competed at the recognized level more than twice in the last five years.

I think you can WANT fancy movers. But that's not quite what the sport has come down to, yet, I don't believe (don't panic, Reed, just yet.)

You still have to win. And, you can NOT win the dressage and still win the event. That happens a lot, still. Granted at the LOWER levels often the dressage winner emerges unscathed, especially at wimpy XC and stadium events. But....I have faith that econonags will always outjump the fancy movers with no heart for cross country. As long as the cross country remains somewhat true to what the framers of the sport intended.

Now, if the "professional" group starts to change the basic tenets of cross country and de-emphasizes the heart of the sport -- then, Reed and Lisa, we panic! :0)

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Eh, true Born. BUT I am seeing quite a bit that those ex ULH's are much more packer-like than in years past. They basically have that proverbial wart on their back and still winning.
Sure, that's great. It's ideal in fact when starting out. I guess what I'm saying is that in year's past, we would never see a rider continue with the 'eventing packer' and keep buying the 'eventing packer'. They would move on to more of a challenge (i.e. a greenie) or more than likely, move up the levels.
So, Craig has to make a buck. What else can he do but get a dressage horse that can jump a little. Have it winning at the low levels and sell it for big $$.
He really isn't far off the mark about what's needed in order to do really well. Or, make your life easier when buying a horse. I guess I'm old school because I had the funds to buy and expensive horse and I get an Amish reject on the side of an icy mountain that's been ridden 4 times.

Sorry guys...not sure what happened to my post. I guess I don't totally agree but I do understand your point. In years past...there wasn't even novice or training level. The goal of most eventers was to go to a CCI* (classic format) or higher. Most eventers also didn't start out as eventers and were not novice riders....they fox hunted, showed and did a little of everything. Now people start out with eventing and specialize as just eventers. Not all riders want or have the desire to ride green horses. Hell, I like to ride green horses but can say that all my many trips to the ER have been from riding green horses. And not all riders want to go up the levels. Nothing wrong with that. Just because someone is on a packer doesn't mean that they are not trying to be the best rider they can be. I personally would get bored riding a packer (and it sounds like you would as well) but that is a personality type, not a requirement for a good rider...and I don't think it is wrong if someone else feels differently. I also would continue to advise anyone who asked my opinion that when starting out, spend the money you have available to buy or lease a horse more experienced than you to learn the ropes on before taking on that project horse...and with a project horse, depending on your goals, get the best raw material you can. But if you don't have the funds....there are of course alternatives....but still seek out the horse with the best MIND that you can....because you can improve jump and movment to a certain extent...but it is very hard if not impossible to tighten screws that might be loose in their mind!

[asterix]

I agree with bornfree completely.

[Ajierene]

Sorry guys...not sure what happened to my post.

OK, that make's LisaB's post make more sense...I thought she was arguing with herself or something and got confused.

I do agree with this. LisaB, you made my point- put a Quarterhorse next to a Warmblood with the same rider and the Warmblood will do better. Well, if you don't have the time, but have the funds and really just want a fun ride - get the horse that is more designed for the sport. Do you expect a win every time? No - but if you are in it for the fun, you would like to be in the top half of the field most of the time. Being at the bottom of the field, never coming home with a ribbon, having to work twice as hard for the same results, not everyone's cup of tea.

As Bornfreenowexpensive said- that is perfectly fine. As far as people wanting to shoot up the ranks on a horse that is better than them, I am just not seeing it. I see a lot of the same people at the lower levels year after year. I see people move up as well, but most likely the people the Craigs of the world cater to are the ones that I see at the lower levels year after year - amateur adults who likely have a demanding, though higher paying, job and want to have fun in a sport they participated in as a child or a sport they found at a later age. These are the people that will buy a 'purpose' bred instead of a backyard pony or thoroughbred directly off the track - for the reasons above.

Not every adult amateur falls into this category, but a lot do.

[LisaB]

I'm completely arguing with myself :D I don't want to see the sport change! And yet, in order for the popularity to rise, we need the great folks who don't want to move up the levels. And so, since they stay at a certain level, it becomes highly competitive. The only way to get more competitive is to have a nicer horse and better training. Hence money money money.
And yet, I don't want to see the sport change. I would love for everyone to experience a full format 3 day. I did just a bit and it got me hell bent on getting to that *. I think that it completely elevates your level horse partnership and horsemanship which is what we've lost.

[chism]

In my area (Mass) the article rings true. Pretty much every new horse purchased at my barn in the last year has been $20-$30K. Each has been brought along by a professional and is at least a Novice level packer, some have gone training with their pro's. Their new owners are by and large middle age women with jobs & families who want to go out and compete on an uncomplicated horse, not necessarily ribbon, but get around safely.

[Ajierene]

And yet, I don't want to see the sport change. I would love for everyone to experience a full format 3 day. I did just a bit and it got me hell bent on getting to that *. I think that it completely elevates your level horse partnership and horsemanship which is what we've lost.

This is where I differ with a lot of other eventers. I do not think the long format is the only way to enhance the partnership and horsemanship between yourself and your horse. My formerly non-trusting horse and I spent the last 10 years enhancing our partnership, our abilities, our talents, our skills. When she came into my life, she was an unbroke four and a half year old with a bad childhood that would not come near me if she thought all I was going to do was 'make her work' (her former owner was using her to practice John Lyons techniques so the work started with roundpen work). We have gone from her flipping out if my toe hit her side as I put it in the stirrup to her being rather confused by standing calmly while I got on bareback.

We went from fear of fancily decorated crossrails to bravely taking on any jump that I put infront of her, and ride to bravely.

Could a long format further enhance our partnership and horsemanship? Sure, but so could fox hunting, or cow penning, learning Western, trying an endurance trial, going on a camping trip....

Many people, as chism mentioned, are completely content to run around a Novice or Beginner Novice course and could be enhancing their own partnership in learning to trust horses again, expanding their horizons from the hunter world or the dressage world, or the team penning world....it takes all kinds.

LisaB, you seem to be exhibiting something I used to have to caution myself against doing when I used to teach lessons - not everyone wants to compete, not everyone wants to get to the Olympics or stretch as far out of their comfort zone. Not every comfort zone is the same. Someone that never jumped in their 20 years of riding may find Beginner Novice a great challenge.