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View Full Version : Took a header off a greenie...what to do about my GPA?



TheHunterKid90
Mar. 31, 2009, 11:17 AM
So last Wednesday I was mounting my 2y/o DWB (it was his....4th ride) I had a ground person and he had been lunged for about a half hour before hand and had some drugs in him...He was perfectly quiet for his first 3 rides but for whatever reason, when I got on him (Swung my leg over...stood in the stirrups for a few seconds) when I sat...he exploded into bucking...basically knocked my ground person over and went flying across the arena...I didn't have my balance...(behind the motion a tad) and came off...and landed squarely on the back of my neck and head....passed out for about 2 minutes or so. Took a lovely visit to the ER where I was in the Trama Unit in a neck and back brace for the night...along with a gazillion ct scans among other things...Anyways! Besides a concussion and some bruising on the neck, I'm okay....now my question is...while my GPA doesn't squeak and is in perfectly fine looking condition I'm not going to ride in it anymore. However I now need a new helmet! How is GPA about replacing helmets when you fall and what do you need to show them as proof of purchase? (ie; reciept etc.) As of right now I have my CO hunt cap and my CO Skull cap left to ride in and goodness knows neither of those would fit in at a hunter show! :lol:

scheibyee
Mar. 31, 2009, 11:26 AM
I would definitely look into it but I think for $50.00? GPA will replace the helmet after a fall if you send it back to them. I thought it might be required that you register it to do that but thinking about it, I think the receipt would suffice. Glad you're okay. Good luck with him!

Mara
Mar. 31, 2009, 11:42 AM
Wow, glad everyone's okay. Frightening episode.

warmbloodzrock
Mar. 31, 2009, 11:51 AM
Glad u are okay! Do you still have your warranty information that came in the box?? If not just contact the company and they should help you.

May I ask why you were riding your 2y.o. DWB, anyway? The warmbloods grow a LOT slower (physically AND mentally) than the TBs, QHs, etc. Perhaps this is your boy's way of saying "wait til I'm 3 or 4 to start me". ;)

ExJumper
Mar. 31, 2009, 11:54 AM
Glad u are okay! Do you still have your warranty information that came in the box?? If not just contact the company and they should help you.

May I ask why you were riding your 2y.o. DWB, anyway? The warmbloods grow a LOT slower (physically AND mentally) than the TBs, QHs, etc. Perhaps this is your boy's way of saying "wait til I'm 3 or 4 to start me". ;)

Many people back their horses for a few rides while they are young and then turn them out for another year or so to finish growing. Just because she is sitting on it doesn't mean she's entering it in the 1st years at the end of the summer.

My young WB mare is on the same schedule. She's getting 6-9 rides now as a 2 year old and then nothing but manners and ground work for another year.

warmbloodzrock
Mar. 31, 2009, 11:55 AM
Many people back their horses for a few rides while they are young and then turn them out for another year or so to finish growing. Just because she is sitting on it doesn't mean she's entering it in the 1st years at the end of the summer.

My young WB mare is on the same schedule. She's getting 6-9 rides now as a 2 year old and then nothing but manners and ground work for another year.

As long as thats ALL shes doing :yes:

JB
Mar. 31, 2009, 11:59 AM
I'm less concerned about backing a 2yo WB that I am about the "drugs". Why? Which drug? I would lay odds the drug was a player in the explosion. If it was ace, that has a reputation for either being very good, or causing a horse to suddenly blow out of it, violently, for no apparent reason.

ExJumper
Mar. 31, 2009, 12:03 PM
As long as thats ALL shes doing :yes:

Agreed :)


I'm less concerned about backing a 2yo WB that I am about the "drugs". Why? Which drug? I would lay odds the drug was a player in the explosion. If it was ace, that has a reputation for either being very good, or causing a horse to suddenly blow out of it, violently, for no apparent reason.

I skimmed over the drug part...





As to the original question, I thought it was more like $150 to replace the helmet, and it couldn't be more than a year or two old. I'd call the place where you purchased the helmet. They should have the details for you and be able to tell you if you are eligible.

And maybe a $50 plastic troxel for the rest of the baby-breaking season ;) ?

TheHunterKid90
Mar. 31, 2009, 12:10 PM
Agreed :)



I skimmed over the drug part...





As to the original question, I thought it was more like $150 to replace the helmet, and it couldn't be more than a year or two old. I'd call the place where you purchased the helmet. They should have the details for you and be able to tell you if you are eligible.

And maybe a $50 plastic troxel for the rest of the baby-breaking season ;) ?


He is 2...but he's from Holland and their seasons are different over there so he turns 3 in August or something silly. I'm just w/t him for about 10 minutes..working on steering at the walk mainly and voice commands....I'm also about 115lb soaken wet. :lol:

As for the "drugs" part...he had a little ace in him...like I said...I had 3 rides prior to Wednesday in him and he was perfectly fine. My guess was maybe I sat down a little too quickly and he had a cold back? I dunno.
And last but not least, there is no way in helllll that I'm wearing a plastic troxel to break a young horse in....if you saw the difference between the shock absorbtion of a basically...foam troxel and a $400+ GPA you'd understand. :yes:

ExJumper
Mar. 31, 2009, 12:14 PM
And last but not least, there is no way in helllll that I'm wearing a plastic troxel to break a young horse in....if you saw the difference between the shock absorbtion of a basically...foam troxel and a $400+ GPA you'd understand. :yes:

It was always my understanding that all ASTM certified helmets are created equal as far as protection.

I ride in GPA and GR8s, but I also don't break babies.

scheibyee
Mar. 31, 2009, 12:14 PM
Agreed :)

As to the original question, I thought it was more like $150 to replace the helmet, and it couldn't be more than a year or two old. I'd call the place where you purchased the helmet. They should have the details for you and be able to tell you if you are eligible.


That sounds a lot more correct, sorry I was going from memory. I think it's my new cell phone insurance that's $50 for a replacement.

Wow, i have too much going on in my head right now haha. I need a vacation.

Nottingham
Mar. 31, 2009, 12:15 PM
Shouldn't have to use drugs to break a young horse in either.

JB
Mar. 31, 2009, 12:32 PM
ASTM-SEI certified is ASTM-SEI certified. A certified Troxel can save your head just like a GPA.

I really am sorry to say this, but if you feel the need to ace a young horse just to get on, then there is a lot missing from his prep work. Ace is not to be taken lightly. A horse blowing through it can be a whole heckuva lot more dangerous of an animal than if he were allowed to have his full mental capacity to deal with whatever "got" him.

ExJumper
Mar. 31, 2009, 12:34 PM
Apparently Troxels may be safer than GPAs according to a post on this thread.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=192957&highlight=gpa+troxel

WorthTheWait95
Mar. 31, 2009, 12:41 PM
And last but not least, there is no way in helllll that I'm wearing a plastic troxel to break a young horse in....if you saw the difference between the shock absorbtion of a basically...foam troxel and a $400+ GPA you'd understand. :yes:

As someone else said there was some sort of study done that showed the Troxel may do a BETTER job then any of the other $$$ helmets.

I too rode in GPA's only until I came across the IRH Elite but a certified helmet is a certified helmet regardless of price.

TatteredDaydreamer
Mar. 31, 2009, 01:12 PM
Why are we aceing the baby to break him? I've started several horses and ponies and NEVER ever would use ACE or any drug to alter the mindset of a baby....I want them fully functioning. And I agree, if you have to drug them to get on there's a lot of prep work that hasn't been done and you need to take a few steps back, or pump the breaks.;)

Sorry, that got a bit of a bug up my butt. Continue.....

Mara
Mar. 31, 2009, 01:37 PM
Ace is funny stuff, as someone else mentioned. I used to work for a vet who used it as a pre-surgical relaxant, and the reactions to it could sometimes be in direct opposition to what it was SUPPOSED to do. And more than once I saw the same animal react completely differently on two different "ace" occasions.

BestKept
Mar. 31, 2009, 02:36 PM
Hate to tell ya, but the GPA is mostly white styrofoam inside...I know because my hubby ran over mine with the truck this weekend...only 3 months old of course....it has basically the same stuff inside as a troxel, except that 2'' wide strip of metal at the top....oh, and the GPA logo.... sooo much safer, i don't think so....

mcm7780
Mar. 31, 2009, 02:51 PM
And last but not least, there is no way in helllll that I'm wearing a plastic troxel to break a young horse in....if you saw the difference between the shock absorbtion of a basically...foam troxel and a $400+ GPA you'd understand. :yes:

An approved helmet is an approved helmet. They both meet or exceed the standards.

I actually took a HAMMER to my Troxel this weekend. I wanted to get rid of it since it's old and doesn't really fit but thought I'd play around with it, see how it's put together, etc. before I threw it out. The hammer did crack it when I took off the plastic shell, put it on it's side, and slammed the hammer into it. It cracked where I hit it, no visible damage to the side that was on the ground. When put the helmet down so the opening was on the ground and swung the hammer into it, there was very little noticeable damage: you could see where the head of the hammer hit, but not much else. It was quite interesting! They are very good protection even though they may not be pricey and trendy.

horsestablereview
Mar. 31, 2009, 03:05 PM
I recently had a similar experience with a slightly older horse. I had been riding her for about three months and the wet season set in and she only got out sporadically. I was getting back into it all with her and had three fantastic rides in a row. Had a day off and the next day, I mounted and...EXPLOSION! Hit the ground HARD and my head (in my GPA) hit the ground and rattled. Oh man it hurt. I was loopy for almost an hour - ER, CT Scan. Everything is okay. GPA held up well but I put it on the shelf and bought a new one just in case. (Mine unfortunately didn't qualify for replacement.)

Moral of the story. Wear the helmet that you like because you'll wear it. If you're comfortable in a $50 Troxel great. If a GPA or Charles Owen fits better, wear that because it'll protect your head better if it stays in place. $500 for a helmet is a hell of a lot cheaper than permanent brain damage. I would also venture to guess that the GPA might be better if you hit your head on something that might try to go through the helmet (fence, jump cup, inconveniently placed pointy branch). I also remember a story about a girl whose head was stepped on by a horse and the GPA held its shape and her head was fine. That would be my only thought on purchasing a GPA over other options.

I looked into the GPA warranty. You have to go through the dealer you bought it from and show a receipt of purchase. It has a one year warranty from date of purchase and an 18 month warranty from date of manufacture. I believe it's $175 for a replacement. I've also heard of some people pleading with the local rep and getting away with getting it replaced even if they didn't meet the above mentioned criteria.

They recommend buying a new helmet every 5 years in general just from normal wear and tear.

As for the horse, she'll be fine. She's still growing and there's some soreness involved that we're getting taken care of. Wish it hadn't taken a nasty fall for me to realize it but live and learn! Glad your story ended okay as well.

BE SAFE! ALWAYS WEAR A HELMET!

Czar
Mar. 31, 2009, 03:28 PM
I've started several & never resorted to this but I wouldn't completely discount it for a horse that needed to have the edge taken off of it to make the first few rides pleasant.

However, I will agree that ace can have the adverse affect - I witnessed a horse kill itself by flipping over while trying to be loaded. She was tranqued as she was 5 & had barely been handled but it was if the ace nixed her self preservation. She reared so high that when she came down she smashed her poll & hemmoraged. It was difficult to say if she wouldn't have done that anyway but we did wonder if the ace contributed negatively to the situation.

BAC
Mar. 31, 2009, 03:54 PM
ASTM-SEI certified is ASTM-SEI certified. A certified Troxel can save your head just like a GPA.

I am always surprised by the number of people who think the GPA is safer than any other helmet, just because it costs more. In fact I think that's how they justifying paying so much money for a GPA, telling themselves its worth the money for their self-preservation. :yes:

TheHunterKid90
Mar. 31, 2009, 04:05 PM
LOL....so what most of you are trying to tell me is that a troxel...btw with the little vents in the head and stuff too is going to hold my head together as good if not better then 1...a GPA...or lets say 2....my CO Skull Cap...sorry, I beg to differ....I'm not one of those pricks who buys a GPA just because of the price tag...I have one because it is simply safer then a plastic Troxel....
BUT...besides the point....I really only asked one question....what is the steps of action I should take to get my helmet replaced? NOT....if I should be breaking my baby or not...NOT if I should have given him ace or not...that's besides the point.... :no:

ExJumper
Mar. 31, 2009, 04:11 PM
LOL....so what most of you are trying to tell me is that a troxel...btw with the little vents in the head and stuff too is going to hold my head together as good if not better then 1...a GPA...or lets say 2....my CO Skull Cap...sorry, I beg to differ....I'm not one of those pricks who buys a GPA just because of the price tag...I have one because it is simply safer then a plastic Troxel....
BUT...besides the point....I really only asked one question....what is the steps of action I should take to get my helmet replaced? NOT....if I should be breaking my baby or not...NOT if I should have given him ace or not...that's besides the point.... :no:

Well, since you apparently neglected to read the part about how a troxel IS as safe as a GPA, perhaps you missed the multiple posts where people told you what to do about your helmet and answered your specific question:

Contact the place you bought it. If it is new enough, you will be able to get a new helmet. This will cost between $150 and $200.

And if you didn't want people to talk about using ace to ride a baby, perhaps you should have left that little nugget out of your OP.

dghunter
Mar. 31, 2009, 04:25 PM
And if you didn't want people to talk about using ace to ride a baby, perhaps you should have left that little nugget out of your OP.

Ditto. You could have just as easily said "I took a spill off of my horse today and hit my head quite hard, was knocked unconscious. I have a GPA etc..." You opened the can of worms by including it in your first post.

Tini Sea Soldier
Mar. 31, 2009, 04:44 PM
Why can't you just her question???? Why must everything be a platform for everyone's soapbox?


OP... I'm so relieved that you are ok. Head injuries are serious... so even though it's been some time... PLEASE be aware of any changes and go see a doctor IMMEDIATELY if you feel any sort of nausea, headache, extreme fatigue, etc. Thank your lucky stars!

I'd ditch the GPA also. Probably contacting the place of purchase (if you don't have warranty info) or even a local distributor would be your best bet and probably most factual. Based on your location... I'm sure Rick's, Bucks Cty Saddlery, or Bevals would be happy to assist you if you gave them a quick call. If you feel like the GPA played a role in saving your noggin...by all means, get another one. People complain about prices.. but let's face it... We get ONE HEAD... so if we're paying $1k+ for custom boots... $2k for board and training, etc... nobody should be complainig about $300 for a helmet. It's YOUR HEAD... where, in case you missed it, YOUR BRAIN LIVES.

Have you considered Medieval armour for this particular baby? Just kidding. :winkgrin:

Today isn't bad.. but the weather has been CRISP and CHILLY up here. For what it's worth, whether it was a 2 YO or a rehabbed horse comign back from injury, I'd be weary about hopping back up on something without a little chill-out meds either. It's not like it's 100 degrees out... wind was whipping yesterday... poured rain this weekend. NJ/PA/NYC hasn't quite accepted spring weather yet.


Ok... I'm sure I've just added fuel to the fire...

mcm7780
Mar. 31, 2009, 04:44 PM
LOL....so what most of you are trying to tell me is that a troxel...btw with the little vents in the head and stuff too is going to hold my head together as good if not better then 1...a GPA...or lets say 2....my CO Skull Cap...

Yep.

JB
Mar. 31, 2009, 05:07 PM
Then just consider it a PSA to save someone else from thinking it's *really* a good idea to ace a baby just to be able to get on :rolleyes:

dab
Mar. 31, 2009, 05:12 PM
And last but not least, there is no way in helllll that I'm wearing a plastic troxel to break a young horse in....if you saw the difference between the shock absorbtion of a basically...foam troxel and a $400+ GPA you'd understand. :yes:A 2003 helmet test sponsored by the Mark Davies Injured Riders Fund found a Troxel schooling helmet to be among the top performers and the GPAs to be among the worst -- http://www.troxelhelmets.com/pdf/ENHAP-Article.pdf

twobays
Mar. 31, 2009, 05:13 PM
LOL....so what most of you are trying to tell me is that a troxel...btw with the little vents in the head and stuff too is going to hold my head together as good if not better then 1...a GPA...or lets say 2....my CO Skull Cap...sorry, I beg to differ....I'm not one of those pricks who buys a GPA just because of the price tag...I have one because it is simply safer then a plastic Troxel....


Prove it. Seeing as you're currently nursing a concussion (and paying ER bills, I can only assume) that you sustained while wearing a GPA, I don't think we need to get into a conversation about how a GPA is sooooo much better than a troxel.

All helmets have to meet a certain standard established by the ATSM, HunterKid. If they meet the standard, they can be sold. There aren't varying degrees of protection. A troxel is as good as a GPA is as good as a CO is as good as an IRH. As long as it fits your head, the protection is the same.

And yeah, the idea of breaking a two year old doped-up warmblood is a little cringeworthy...

Pirateer
Mar. 31, 2009, 05:33 PM
Seriously.
Maybe Darwin is at work here.... ;)

msw104
Mar. 31, 2009, 06:51 PM
I promise I'm not a troll or anything, I simply can't remember my old user name and such, it's been a while. I just want to add my two cents about helmets.

I've worked in a saddlery, and spoken to CO and GPA representatives about their helmets. Yes, you are paying for the name, but you're also paying for additional testing. They do meet all the same ASTM approvals as Troxel or International, but these go above and beyond in terms of testing. They go through more intense testing. When they are tested, it is done in batches of however many, generally a large number. If one helmet fails, then the whole batch fails and must be thrown away.

Also I believe I remember that CO has something like 8 layers that absorb a certain amount of impact each...

Anyways, I'm not really justifying their price, but just wanted to say that their is some reason for them being so expensive.

poltroon
Mar. 31, 2009, 07:26 PM
I promise I'm not a troll or anything, I simply can't remember my old user name and such, it's been a while. I just want to add my two cents about helmets.

I've worked in a saddlery, and spoken to CO and GPA representatives about their helmets. Yes, you are paying for the name, but you're also paying for additional testing. They do meet all the same ASTM approvals as Troxel or International, but these go above and beyond in terms of testing. They go through more intense testing. When they are tested, it is done in batches of however many, generally a large number. If one helmet fails, then the whole batch fails and must be thrown away.

Also I believe I remember that CO has something like 8 layers that absorb a certain amount of impact each...

Anyways, I'm not really justifying their price, but just wanted to say that their is some reason for them being so expensive.

I think all of them do this kind of testing. The issue of the batch testing is required as part of the ASTM/SEI certification. All of them carry substantial liability if they should have defective product.

I still find it interesting that for the first few years that GPA was on the market, they were unable to pass the ASTM/SEI acceptance tests. Even then, their marketing that they were the safest was in full swing.

GPA is a good helmet, but there's zero evidence that they're any better than any other, and some evidence that they might not be quite the best. If you like it and it fits you, excellent - go for it. My biggest concern with them safety-wise is that it is very difficult to talk yourself (or even parents) into replacing a $450 helmet if you had a questionable knock in the head - not the obvious kind, where you got a headache or concussion, but the kind where you fell and didn't think you hit your head, but there's mud on the top.

Paint Hunter/Jumper
Mar. 31, 2009, 07:30 PM
I have heard that GPAs are great with replacing. And a little word of advice, go to a sports concussion specialist! The ERs have not been updated with the new knowledge about concussions yet. The people studying concussions have found a lot of alarming stuff about them and some of it is pretty scary. If you are anywhere near Chester County, PA, I can give you the name of the doctor I went to when I got a concussion, and my trainer had to end up going to! So please don't treat this as "just" a concussion, go to a specialist!

2ndyrgal
Mar. 31, 2009, 08:08 PM
It truly isn't Volvo vs. Yugo. Troxels are ugly, but may be safer. Doesn't mean you have to wear one. But if you have to lunge a coming 3 yr old for half an hour THEN ace him, then there are some BIG holes in your program. It's like getting a little kid drunk. Having watched literally hundreds of horses be tranq'd over the last 25 yrs, I can tell you that a lot of them don't like the feeling and fight it, sometimes quite hard. A well behaved but frisky horse that HAD to be only handwalked and was way too fresh? Ok, I'll buy that. But if you have to tranq one to get a leg over, you aren't doing it right and it's dangerous. I've started an awful lot of TB race babies, no way are they gonna tranq one. If you can't stick through the rodeo, then find someone who can, but at some point, you're going to have to get rid of the crutch. And your 2 yr old learned a new trick today. I can dump her, even if I'm impaired. Have fun.

ImJumpin
Mar. 31, 2009, 09:29 PM
Your original question has been answered, but I have another question from your OP-- why is a Charles Owen hunt helmet not acceptable in the h/j ring????

And to echo others and to discount your "troxels have so many vents into them"-- GPA Speed Air has many vents as well-- what makes GPA's vents safer than Troxel's?

Addison
Apr. 1, 2009, 08:45 AM
Until 3 years ago, GPAs were the trendiest helmet in the ring but that did not make COs unacceptable.

I can not even begin to agree that a 2 year old warmblood should be backed (even lightly). What can they possibly learn at this age that they will not learn when they are older? On second thought, this particular horse did learn one thing--how to get someone off his back!

The whole idea of aceing a two year old to ride it, defies logic and good basic, horse sense.

I'm glad the OP is okay but for her own safety, I do hope she will reconsider her training methods.

Czar
Apr. 1, 2009, 09:26 AM
I can not even begin to agree that a 2 year old warmblood should be backed (even lightly). What can they possibly learn at this age that they will not learn when they are older? On second thought, this particular horse did learn one thing--how to get someone off his back!



Lots of breeds of WB's come into their own at a young age which is why the Europeans jump 3 yr olds over courses and whatnot. I do agree that just b/c they are physically ready does not make them mentally ready but backing is fairly non demanding.

All horses are individuals so blanket statements usually don't apply. Case in point, if you have a rather unruly 2 yr old that is naturally assertive and BIG; it would be wise to back him BEFORE he comes into his own. The process of starting a young horse is associated with submission and acceptance of human rules - some horses need to learn this at a younger age b/c of their temperament.

Furthermore, most people that back 2 yr olds do just that, back them & turn them out again.

RAyers
Apr. 1, 2009, 09:26 AM
....I still find it interesting that for the first few years that GPA was on the market, they were unable to pass the ASTM/SEI acceptance tests. Even then, their marketing that they were the safest was in full swing...



Clarification here. The reason GPA had difficulty with the ASTM/SEI had nothing to do with the shock absorption test. There is a stipulation in the ASTM standard (F-1163) as to marking and labeling that the GPA did not meet as it was being manufactured by a different company that was selling.

Reed

TheHunterKid90
Apr. 1, 2009, 09:32 AM
Your original question has been answered, but I have another question from your OP-- why is a Charles Owen hunt helmet not acceptable in the h/j ring????

And to echo others and to discount your "troxels have so many vents into them"-- GPA Speed Air has many vents as well-- what makes GPA's vents safer than Troxel's?


I said hunt cap...meaning an unapproved helmet.....that I use for dressage.....

Madeline
Apr. 1, 2009, 10:32 AM
Glad u are okay! Do you still have your warranty information that came in the box?? If not just contact the company and they should help you.

May I ask why you were riding your 2y.o. DWB, anyway? The warmbloods grow a LOT slower (physically AND mentally) than the TBs, QHs, etc. Perhaps this is your boy's way of saying "wait til I'm 3 or 4 to start me". ;)

My question is not "Why were you riding him?" but "Why in the world would you lunge a 2 YO full of drugs for a half hour and then try to ride him?"

And on the hunt cap thing..because the rules are that you need to wear an approved helmet.

JB
Apr. 1, 2009, 11:32 AM
I can not even begin to agree that a 2 year old warmblood should be backed (even lightly). What can they possibly learn at this age that they will not learn when they are older?
I'd rather get on a 2.5 yo a few times while he's still "little", learn to walk and stop and some steering, then put him back out 'til 3+, then get on a 17h 3yo and work things out. Yes, it's all about prep work. But there's a human mental aspect to getting on a 16.2h 2yo vs a 17h 3yo that works to everyone's advantage :) No 2yo was ever harmed by someone of not-extraodinarily-heavy-weight getting on a few times and doing the above :)


Lots of breeds of WB's come into their own at a young age which is why the Europeans jump 3 yr olds over courses and whatnot. I do agree that just b/c they are physically ready does not make them mentally ready but backing is fairly non demanding.
No horse is physically ready to be jumping courses, especially 3' and higher. Their knee growth plates are barely closed, and their backs *and hocks* still have another 2 years or so ;)


All horses are individuals so blanket statements usually don't apply.
Except I doubt you'll ever see a 3yo whose spine and hock growth plates are done growing :D


Case in point, if you have a rather unruly 2 yr old that is naturally assertive and BIG; it would be wise to back him BEFORE he comes into his own. The process of starting a young horse is associated with submission and acceptance of human rules - some horses need to learn this at a younger age b/c of their temperament.
Exactly, you said it better than I did :)

scheibyee
Apr. 1, 2009, 11:44 AM
No horse is physically ready to be jumping courses, especially 3' and higher. Their knee growth plates are barely closed, and their backs *and hocks* still have another 2 years or so ;)



I don't know that I can agree here. Plenty of horses do just fine jumping courses at 3 years old. How do you expect a horse to be ready to do 3'9-4' in the extremely competitive 5 year old jumper division if they have only been jumping courses for less than a year?

RugBug
Apr. 1, 2009, 11:46 AM
Approved helmets are approved helmets. More expensive doesn't necessarily mean safer...just trendier (or show ring acceptable).


I've started several & never resorted to this but I wouldn't completely discount it for a horse that needed to have the edge taken off of it to make the first few rides pleasant.


Sure...but shouldn't the "edge" have been taken off by the 30 minutes on the longe line? (which, IMO is long for a horse of any age and is REALLY long for a 2 year old.)

I'm currently working with a coming three year old. I've 'ridden' him 5 times..and the most I've done with him before getting on is a hand walk around the farm, some trotting in hand (not much because I get tired) and an attitude assessment at the mounting block (pounding on his back, sides, neck, butt, flopping stirrups, standing in stirrups, laying on him, etc). 'Course part of what I love about this baby is his temperament. He's got a 'whatever' attitude about most new stuff.

If you have to longe for 30 minutes and use drugs...maybe more time needs to be spent on the basics.

JB
Apr. 1, 2009, 12:07 PM
I don't know that I can agree here. Plenty of horses do just fine jumping courses at 3 years old. How do you expect a horse to be ready to do 3'9-4' in the extremely competitive 5 year old jumper division if they have only been jumping courses for less than a year?

What's to argue? It's a fact that the growth plates of the spine and hocks are not fully closed until around age 5. That's science, not opinion, doesn't change based on when the horse is started or how he was started. It's fact.

That's entirely different from saying a horse needs to be jumping 3' as a 3yo in order to be ready for the 4' 5yo Jumper division - no disagreement there.

However, I DO strongly disagree with a 4' 4yo Jumper division for the reasons I stated. Just like I strongly disagree with 3yo Hunter Futurities. Just like I strongly disagree with Yearling Longe Line classes. Or 2yo Reining Futurities.

JB
Apr. 1, 2009, 12:09 PM
I'm currently working with a coming three year old. I've 'ridden' him 5 times..and the most I've done with him before getting on is a hand walk around the farm, some trotting in hand (not much because I get tired) and an attitude assessment at the mounting block (pounding on his back, sides, neck, butt, flopping stirrups, standing in stirrups, laying on him, etc). 'Course part of what I love about this baby is his temperament. He's got a 'whatever' attitude about most new stuff.
Yep, do some prep work to get his mind focused on you, and you can assess whether it's safe to get on the beast or not. If not, do more groundwork, and if you're still doing groundwork after an hour, that's not the day to get on. I never got on my youngster without first doing something to assess his mental state, get him paying attention, ease him into work mode, make things good, set the 2 of us up for success.

Kenike
Apr. 1, 2009, 12:39 PM
I would also think the 30 minutes of lunging should be more than sufficient to take the edge off. And that's a LONG time to be lunging, especially a baby!

I've often wondered why it's not okay for a human to even consider driving or "operating heavy machinery" on something that *might* make them a little sleepy or loopy (key word being "might," which means you stand at least as good a chance of the med not bothering your senses), but it's okay to ace a large animal and then climb on its back. Especially the youngsters, and especially since ace is known to cause a reaction like the OP experienced from time-to-time.

Definite holes in the program here. I think it's beyond time for going back to basics....

Addison
Apr. 1, 2009, 01:12 PM
JB: "I'd rather get on a 2.5 yo a few times while he's still "little", learn to walk and stop and some steering, then put him back out 'til 3+, then get on a 17h 3yo and work things out. Yes, it's all about prep work. But there's a human mental aspect to getting on a 16.2h 2yo vs a 17h 3yo that works to everyone's advantage :) No 2yo was ever harmed by someone of not-extraodinarily-heavy-weight getting on a few times and doing the above :)"


I seriously doubt a 2 1/2 year old warmblood is going to learn much while sedated. The brain is not there to begin with and then to medicate on top of that!!! I just don't see how this is a positive experience for either the horse or the rider.

CZAR The OP did not actually say that she was just backing the horse or that she intends to turn the horse out for a year. I used the term as a point of reference for the least amount of U/S training a young horse gets.

She did say in a later post that she did not want suggestions or comments regarding her training methods so I refrain from any further comments.

Instant Karma
Apr. 1, 2009, 02:07 PM
Wow, this post is mindboggling. We back babies at our farm at the age of two, we are working with one mare who back in the fall we taught to lunge, backed her, taught her the basic concept of stop, go, steering, then gave her the winter off. She will be three soon and will then go back to work.

At no point would it ever be acceptable to lunge down a 2 year old for thirty minutes, and then to ace a two year old just to back them? Then put those two things together:eek::eek::eek: It seems like you are just setting him up for failure.

I am sorry you had such trouble, but maybe your guy is trying to tell you something.

And like another poster said, if you didn't want any comments on drugging, you shouldn't have even mentioned such a controversial practice in your original message!

JB
Apr. 1, 2009, 02:27 PM
JB: "I'd rather get on a 2.5 yo a few times while he's still "little", learn to walk and stop and some steering, then put him back out 'til 3+, then get on a 17h 3yo and work things out. Yes, it's all about prep work. But there's a human mental aspect to getting on a 16.2h 2yo vs a 17h 3yo that works to everyone's advantage :) No 2yo was ever harmed by someone of not-extraodinarily-heavy-weight getting on a few times and doing the above :)"


I seriously doubt a 2 1/2 year old warmblood is going to learn much while sedated. The brain is not there to begin with and then to medicate on top of that!!! I just don't see how this is a positive experience for either the horse or the rider.
Where did I say medicate? I was the one who originally pointed out how bad an idea that was.

TheHunterKid90
Apr. 1, 2009, 03:49 PM
Wow, this post is mindboggling. We back babies at our farm at the age of two, we are working with one mare who back in the fall we taught to lunge, backed her, taught her the basic concept of stop, go, steering, then gave her the winter off. She will be three soon and will then go back to work.

At no point would it ever be acceptable to lunge down a 2 year old for thirty minutes, and then to ace a two year old just to back them? Then put those two things together:eek::eek::eek: It seems like you are just setting him up for failure.

I am sorry you had such trouble, but maybe your guy is trying to tell you something.

And like another poster said, if you didn't want any comments on drugging, you shouldn't have even mentioned such a controversial practice in your original message!


Did I say I galloped his ass around the ring for 30 minutes on the lunge tape? NO.......lunging isn't really very good for any horse not to mention a baby....Most of my lunging work focuses on voice commands...walk...halt (woah)...walk...trot...walk....
With breaks in between where I pat him all over flop the stirrups put the lunge tape over his haunches etc....He was given a very small amount of ace AFTER he was lunged....


In answer to everyone freaking out about me backing a coming 3y/o...he's going to be a big strong powerful tank of a horse....as I could obviously already tell with his bucking....I've been on him since then and he's been fine....without the ace as well.....I don't intend to continue riding him through the summer...I'll probably sit on him for another week or 2 and then turn him out for the year...maybe pack him along to a few shows to see the sites.....

Czar
Apr. 1, 2009, 03:58 PM
Did I say I galloped his ass around the ring for 30 minutes on the lunge tape? NO.......lunging isn't really very good for any horse not to mention a baby....Most of my lunging work focuses on voice commands...walk...halt (woah)...walk...trot...walk....
With breaks in between where I pat him all over flop the stirrups put the lunge tape over his haunches etc....He was given a very small amount of ace AFTER he was lunged....



I was going to say something to this effect & I'm glad to hear you subscribe to the same train of thought.

Lunging goes a long way for obedience & isn't just about wearing them down. I suspected the OP was probably doing a fair amount of "teaching" on the longe & not merely running her coming 3 yr old into the ground.

On a side note...I really don't agree with jumping 3 yr olds over courses either - I was just using it as a reference point to how lightly backing a 2 yr old is fairly non aggressive training-wise in comparison.

twobays
Apr. 1, 2009, 06:08 PM
I was going to say something to this effect & I'm glad to hear you subscribe to the same train of thought.

Lunging goes a long way for obedience & isn't just about wearing them down. I suspected the OP was probably doing a fair amount of "teaching" on the longe & not merely running her coming 3 yr old into the ground.



Now that the OP has come back to explain, it makes more sense. But when all the OP said was, I lunged him for a half hour, drugged him and then he bucked me off, it sets up a very different scenario in our minds.

Although it does raise the question in my mind, if he was so quiet on the lunge, why the ace?

Kenike
Apr. 1, 2009, 06:38 PM
It's not the lunge line or the teaching that goes on with it that's the problem (vs. the galloping around thing that some people do without any training), it's the drugging that I have a problem with. 30 minutes still seems like a very long time for a youngster to me, but I guess to each their own.

Tha Ridge
Apr. 1, 2009, 07:12 PM
Now that the OP has come back to explain, it makes more sense. But when all the OP said was, I lunged him for a half hour, drugged him and then he bucked me off, it sets up a very different scenario in our minds.

Although it does raise the question in my mind, if he was so quiet on the lunge, why the ace?

Because A LOT of horses are dead heads on the lunge and then can be explosive under saddle. I mean, are you asking that because you legitimately were wondering or do you just want to continue to pick on the OP?

twobays
Apr. 1, 2009, 07:22 PM
Because A LOT of horses are dead heads on the lunge and then can be explosive under saddle. I mean, are you asking that because you legitimately were wondering or do you just want to continue to pick on the OP?

I was legitimately wondering. A 30 minute lunge + ace seems like a lot for a fourth ride...especially he was fine during the lunge.

ef80
Apr. 1, 2009, 07:27 PM
A 2003 helmet test sponsored by the Mark Davies Injured Riders Fund found a Troxel schooling helmet to be among the top performers and the GPAs to be among the worst -- http://www.troxelhelmets.com/pdf/ENHAP-Article.pdf

This info should be in every helmet thread, on every page and probably the general H/J Faq up at the top :X

shalomypony
Apr. 1, 2009, 07:52 PM
I'm a bit confused about your statement concerning "different" seasons in Holland.What exactly does that mean?All four seasons coincide with ours.

TheHunterKid90
Apr. 1, 2009, 08:45 PM
I'm a bit confused about your statement concerning "different" seasons in Holland.What exactly does that mean?All four seasons coincide with ours.

the breeding season is different....which is why he is born in August......

Silver Snaffles
Apr. 1, 2009, 08:59 PM
I would get the GPA replaced. You really should replace after any fall where the helmet is used.

When I was a kid at Pony Club, we had a man come around with all sorts of helmets, he had some which were cut in half / dismembered that had been in falls. No visable damage on the outside, but inside it was smashed to pieces.

Think about what happens to the helmet after you have disposed of it, cut the harness off so it can't be used by an unsuspecting person. Some people try and resell helmets if they have no visable damage. Highly unethical, but there was a place which was taking helmets to "dispose" however they were really cleaning them up and reselling them.

horserider12
Apr. 1, 2009, 09:26 PM
As a trainer who has seen kids fall, I personally hate the plastic troxels. Not neccesarily because of their lack of protection for a fall as I've never seen one actually stay in place during a fall. And yes, they are properly fitted to the kids, they just don't stay on their heads!
As far as GPA's, I have had two very serious falls, both times with minor concussions which the doctor told me I would have been dead or had serious brain damage if not for that helmet. I had an adult rider take a header into a fence post, broke her back, surgeon told her that helmet saved her life, no head injury at all. I have had riders have minor falls in Irh and troxel helmets and end up with serious concussions...........so just my opinion on gpa's, well worth every dollar spent! There is a difference for some reason.
As far as riding two year olds, we break all our babies in the spring as they are turning 2, get them lightly started steering, moving off the leg etc through the summer, then they get the winter off. This is quite common and there are many studies that horses that do light work at a young age have stronger bone structure later in life. I do not agree with ace when riding any horse though, way too unpredictable.

Kementari
Apr. 1, 2009, 10:42 PM
As a trainer who has seen kids fall, I personally hate the plastic troxels. Not neccesarily because of their lack of protection for a fall as I've never seen one actually stay in place during a fall. And yes, they are properly fitted to the kids, they just don't stay on their heads!
As far as GPA's, I have had two very serious falls, both times with minor concussions which the doctor told me I would have been dead or had serious brain damage if not for that helmet. I had an adult rider take a header into a fence post, broke her back, surgeon told her that helmet saved her life, no head injury at all. I have had riders have minor falls in Irh and troxel helmets and end up with serious concussions...........so just my opinion on gpa's, well worth every dollar spent! There is a difference for some reason.


And I've personally escaped NASTY falls without damage to my head in my Troxel, which has never shifted on my head in any fall (nor in the course of riding, except when I have left the chin strap too loose).

Which proves...nothing. Because it's anecdotal, and no one knows exactly how I've hit my head in those falls, how it fits, or how my helmet may or may not have been compromised beforehand (though I'd vote for "may not" since I'm very careful about how it's stored and replacing it after every fall ;)).

I could find hundreds of people who've fallen and hit their heads with no helmet at all and not sustained any serious injury. That doesn't make no helmet just as safe as a helmet - which is why anecdotal evidence is not useful in this sort of situation.

I'd far rather look at the actual scientific tests posted earlier in the thread than rely on what "looks" safer or what "seems" safer. :yes:

JumpWithPanache
Apr. 2, 2009, 10:22 AM
I would get the GPA replaced. You really should replace after any fall where the helmet is used.

When I was a kid at Pony Club, we had a man come around with all sorts of helmets, he had some which were cut in half / dismembered that had been in falls. No visable damage on the outside, but inside it was smashed to pieces.

Think about what happens to the helmet after you have disposed of it, cut the harness off so it can't be used by an unsuspecting person. Some people try and resell helmets if they have no visable damage. Highly unethical, but there was a place which was taking helmets to "dispose" however they were really cleaning them up and reselling them.


Yikes! Thanks for the tip. I will definitely cut the harness off anything that crashes or expires from here out.

OP: Glad to hear you're ok, new helmet time!

Vero
Apr. 14, 2009, 07:58 AM
I would definitely look into it but I think for $50.00? GPA will replace the helmet after a fall if you send it back to them. I thought it might be required that you register it to do that but thinking about it, I think the receipt would suffice.


As to the original question, I thought it was more like $150 to replace the helmet, and it couldn't be more than a year or two old. I'd call the place where you purchased the helmet. They should have the details for you and be able to tell you if you are eligible.

I just received an email back from GPA, as far as the GPA employee I heard from is concerned there is no such program.

FlyingSwap
Apr. 14, 2009, 09:24 AM
Not to hijack, but I have a similar issue to the OP---

I just had a BAD fall off of a roguish critter, and landed right on the back of my head. The difference is that I have a CO Hampton---does anyone know if they have a replacement policy similar to GPA and some other helmet makers? My helmet is not that old and I don't want to shell out $200 for a new one, but I understand the safety issues of riding with a compromised helmet. Any suggestions?

Hunter Mom
Apr. 14, 2009, 09:39 AM
I know CO does replace helmets (or did last year). Send them an email to get specifics - I think they were about $75 to replace but don't remember for sure. Their Customer Service email is charles.owen@ukonline.co.uk

FlyingSwap
Apr. 14, 2009, 09:40 AM
Thank you!!! :D

Addison
Apr. 14, 2009, 11:04 AM
Dover Saddlery replaced my CO John Whitaker after a bad fall a couple of years ago. I have been a customer of theirs for about 15 years and they replaced out of apprciation for my business. If The GPA people won't help you maybe the shop where you purchased it will.

Pirateer
Apr. 14, 2009, 06:06 PM
I just received an email back from GPA, as far as the GPA employee I heard from is concerned there is no such program.

Generally you call the GPA retailer. I got mine from Dover, so I called Dover and they replaced mine for $150 (this was last summer).

Phaxxton
Apr. 14, 2009, 06:10 PM
As a trainer who has seen kids fall, I personally hate the plastic troxels. Not neccesarily because of their lack of protection for a fall as I've never seen one actually stay in place during a fall. And yes, they are properly fitted to the kids, they just don't stay on their heads!
As far as GPA's, I have had two very serious falls, both times with minor concussions which the doctor told me I would have been dead or had serious brain damage if not for that helmet. I had an adult rider take a header into a fence post, broke her back, surgeon told her that helmet saved her life, no head injury at all. I have had riders have minor falls in Irh and troxel helmets and end up with serious concussions...........so just my opinion on gpa's, well worth every dollar spent! There is a difference for some reason.


I think there are similar anecdotes for almost every helmet out there.

When I fell and broke my back, I landed FLAT on my back (on top of a ground pole), slamming my head into the ground. I cracked two vertebra and had only a very minor concussion. Doctor told me I'd have serious brain damage if I hadn't been wearing my helmet -- a plastic Troxel. That said, I attribute this to the fact that I was wearing a properly fitted, approved helmet, not because I was wearing a Troxel. FWIW, I now ride in a CO.

gloryeyes
Apr. 14, 2009, 11:36 PM
More important than the brand is the fit, I think - I've noticed that some people have "GPA-shaped" heads (rounder), and others have "CO-shaped" heads (more oval). If your approved helmet fits your head well, then it's doing its job.

When your head hits something very hard, your brain is gonna rebound inside your skull. It's better if your head doesn't also rebound inside your helmet. :)

JA
Apr. 15, 2009, 12:03 AM
The GPA replacement policy several years ago was as follows the helmet must have been manufactured within the last year, the date is stamped on the orange tag or you must have your receipt of purchase, date within one year. a letter must accompany the helmet explaining why it should be replaced however there is no guarantee it will be replaced. The cost used to be $150 but that may have changed. Contact the tack store you bought it from because this policy may have changed.

Either way after a fall the helmet should be replaced