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MintHillFarm
Mar. 30, 2009, 07:19 PM
:mad:I will make a long story short...I had the boundary line surveyed after my non-horsey neighbor and I both noticed on-line, that the county had it all wrong in their ariel photo. The line the county had indicated as the boundary, was going through my top paddock, through my outdoor arena and large pond; all these improvements I paid to have put in years ago. My neighbor, thinking (wishing is more like it) that he owned more then he thought, approached me about it. I agreed to split the cost of the survey ($2300 each) and sent in my deposit. He agreed, though not in writing. Fast forward to today and the suvery is done, (the county had it wrong, he lost land and now has 19 acres not 25 and I have 45 instead of 40) AND he refuses to pay his share, has threatened to have anyone he deems is on his property (they are not) arrested and the kicker to it all is HE MOVED THE SURVEYORS MARKERS to where it suited him in the woods. The surveyors and I walked the property line today and they were very quick to point that out and where the markers were originally placed.
He denied it (of course), when after I called the police and the Trooper went up there. Now I have to pay to put the markers back (Not going too, he will only move them again) and take him to court if I want to press charges. What a pathetic person; to live lies like that! I am trying to look on the positive - the arena is mine and I have 5 more acres than I thought. I am really trying too, not to dwell (this is hard!) on this horrible person. I hope that his heart was beating a little faster when he answered the door and saw the police...
I also pray that he does not harm my horses, that has been my biggest concern. He has hunting rifles and a very bad temper, which I have seen. NOT a good combination...

Has anyone else experienced a property line issue?

CJBean
Mar. 30, 2009, 07:31 PM
Sorry I haven't had to go through property line disputes.

Sounds like the guy is a total dink. But unfortunately I'm not sure if you will be able to get that $2300 bucks out of him if it was just a verbal contract for you two to split the cost of the survey.

But I would say congrats to you on getting five more acres:) And I bet, like you said, his heart was probably beating pretty hard when the cops showed up at his door:lol: Considering the sound of this guy, I would just leave it be. But that's my thought.

MintHillFarm
Mar. 30, 2009, 07:39 PM
I think I have to just let it be, like you said. I made my point with the trooper and perhaps I have to be satisfied with that. Thanks for your note!

JSwan
Mar. 30, 2009, 07:39 PM
Not personally. But my old boarding barn experienced a problem. A new owner moved into an adjoining lot and one night he just tore down the fence. No warning, no phone call - just decided to do it.

There were 20 horses in that field.

You can imagine the BO had a conniption. He'd owned the land for 50 years - the new owner's surveyor had made an error.

However, police were involved, lawyers were involved - and we feared for our horses for a long time. A few years later I guess that guy sold his house and moved - never had any problems with the new owner.

Don't know all the details but things were pretty tense for a while.

Hope everything settles down soon.

bambam
Mar. 30, 2009, 07:49 PM
I would not assume you own that extra 5 acres- in addition to other possible variables, if your state recognizes adverse posession and it has been long enough (usually a very long time), it is possible to lose land to a neighbor if the neighbor occupies it and openly claims it as their own for the requisite period time (I do not recall the exact requirements for adverse posession, plus they vary by jurisdiction anyway). You might want to consult a local real estate/real property attorney.

equinelaw
Mar. 30, 2009, 07:57 PM
I think since she was openly possessing it--she had an indoor on it and it was fenced--he is out of luck. I think that would have been her case had it turned out he owned the land.

Either way, lawyers will most likely become involved. I don't think he wants to give up 5 acres without a fight. Hopefully that fight will be in a court of law and not in some night time sneak attack. I would start by getting a court order for him to stay off YOUR property.

MintHillFarm
Mar. 30, 2009, 08:05 PM
The new boundary line map was filed today, so unless he wants to pay to have it resurveyed he is out of luck. Since I had fenced and made that land my own, my lawyer feels I am fine. The deed was correct, the only thing that wasn't was the overhead view the shot from the plane and the line they drew through it...I may ask for that court order in the future, though since he is such a hot head, I may also leave it as is, for now. My lawyer knows all that has gone on and so far feels we have done enough and all that we can without spending more money. The neighbor does not have the $ to do anything on his end. I could take him to small claims court for the share of the survey, but there was nothing in writing. The surveyor said they would testify so maybe I will. I am so mentally tired from this whole thing that I need to refresh my mind to fight another day...thank you all for your thoughts...

Hilldale
Mar. 30, 2009, 08:25 PM
I don't know how it is in New York but...did your neighbor physically move the permanent markers (i.e. rods, metal pins) or just the temporary flagged stakes? In Virginia, if you move the permanent markers I believe it is a felony. You may want an attorney to look into it.

Cherry
Mar. 30, 2009, 09:12 PM
MintHillFarm, I'm sorry you have to live next to a person who is like this.

I have a neighbor who seems to be encroaching on our property as well. I'd like to have it surveyed but I fear she, too, will move the flags and then what??? I think if you take this person to court that he would have to pay for reflagging the property line--at least I would hope so.

Since this person came to you about this situation and offered to pay he is on the hook for that portion of the survey--regardless of how the survey turned out.

Take him in front of Judge Pirro or Judge Judy--they'll tear him a new one! :yes: :winkgrin: :lol:

Frankly, I am all in favor of taking people like this to court (small claims)! Sometimes it's enough to get them to back off. Can you talk to a lawyer about this situation and your fear of retribution??? I just hate bullies!!!!! :mad:

bambam
Mar. 30, 2009, 10:06 PM
I think since she was openly possessing it--she had an indoor on it and it was fenced--he is out of luck. I think that would have been her case had it turned out he owned the land.
.
I was talking about the 5 acres she previously thought the neighbor owned but per the survey are actually hers- not the property that the aerial photo cut off that both her and her neighbor had believed that OP owned and on which her fields and indoor are.
If she has consulted a lawyer, I assume that this lawyer knows the relevant facts and she is fine but based on the post, that was not necessarily the case because your legal ownership of the property even if it is supported by deeds and filed surveys and all the documentation does not necessarily defeat adverse posession. Glad she consulted an attorney because it is unfortunate how few do and how often it comes back to bite them in the butt

tkhawk
Mar. 30, 2009, 10:13 PM
The new boundary line map was filed today, so unless he wants to pay to have it resurveyed he is out of luck. Since I had fenced and made that land my own, my lawyer feels I am fine. The deed was correct, the only thing that wasn't was the overhead view the shot from the plane and the line they drew through it...I may ask for that court order in the future, though since he is such a hot head, I may also leave it as is, for now. My lawyer knows all that has gone on and so far feels we have done enough and all that we can without spending more money. The neighbor does not have the $ to do anything on his end. I could take him to small claims court for the share of the survey, but there was nothing in writing. The surveyor said they would testify so maybe I will. I am so mentally tired from this whole thing that I need to refresh my mind to fight another day...thank you all for your thoughts...

I don't know much about property rights in my state -much less New York. But I think if you could get the overhead view corrected too-that would make it clear that you are the owner. Just covering all your angles. As for the 2,500 -if you can afford it, let it go-you have 5 extra acres and if you can instead put in fencing or some such-try and distance yourself from him. He seems mad right now-well he just lost 5 acres when he thought he would gain some!:lol: So understandable- so as long as you can make your case legally non questionable and can afford to let it go for the balance amt-let it go. No point in aggravating-unless you absolutely have to-you do have to live next door.

deltawave
Mar. 30, 2009, 10:31 PM
I'd sure take it hard if I lost a huge chunk of my property! Not condoning the infantile and ugly behavior, but I wouldn't hold my breath for the other half of the survey fee--a couple of grand for five acres isn't a bad price, though. ;)

He doesn't have a leg to stand on threatening people on "his" land, so I'd just give him time to simmer down. Be pleasant, take the high road. No doubt he's smarting pretty badly over HIS own stupid idea. I'd be inclined to let the half of the survey fee go. You still have to live next to him, and from his perspective I'm sure he'd rather forget the whole thing, is embarrassed and humiliated, and might--someday--appreciate your NOT drilling down on him for the money.

MikeP
Mar. 30, 2009, 10:35 PM
I'd fence it according to the newly surveyed lines, while the issue is fresh in everyone's mind.

Just to be safe, if I were you I'd fence my "new" five acres right now and just pay the surveyor whatever is owed. Depending on your location, $2300 might not be that much for five acres, so look at it that way.

At the very least, put some permanent markers where they belong. Blue paint on trees works well, if there's a tree or trees on the line. Another thing you can do is drive metal stakes (concrete reinforcing rods come to mind) into the ground where you can find them but the neighbor doesn't know they are there. Great for future reference.

Good luck!

deltawave
Mar. 30, 2009, 11:38 PM
There should already be permanent markers in the ground, shouldn't there? It will say on the survey. Those little flags are just for visualization--usually unless there is a definite boundary (a street, etc.) there have to be permanent markers sunk into the ground, or so I thought.

Alagirl
Mar. 30, 2009, 11:46 PM
I think now a days markers are more like the invisible kind put in the ground and not easily moved, unlike the orange flags or old fashioned stones.


It is not legal to move those boundary markers, not in old world measures anyhow, folks have been known to haunt the area after their passing suffering for their miss-deeds! :lol:

frankly, I'd pay the surveyor. Keeps your reputation in check, and I'd proceed according to layers instructions on fencing the new 5. (around here land is cheap, so 2300 bucks for 5 acres is a good deal!

But I know what you mean, I don't even want to go to the back side of my front yard, because my neighbors are such non people... :no:

what ever you do, stay safe. (document, document, document!)

Chall
Mar. 30, 2009, 11:55 PM
Must be a New York thing. My neighbor did the same with us and his neighbor on the other side. Moved the markers after we had just had the land surveyed.
I contemplated having a fencer put in stone pillars where the markers were, you know dig 5 feet pour in cement and put nice stone pillar on top. But I didn't. He is absurdly sneaky and keeps on cutting and putting his grass on our side. Honestly ? I think he has a mental tick. Every once in a while we push the grass back. Oh well, "there's none so queer as folks" :winkgrin:

Renae
Mar. 31, 2009, 12:00 AM
Just watch what you do with your manure. The next thing thses kind of neighbors do is file a complaint that you are not handling your manure properly.

silver2
Mar. 31, 2009, 01:06 AM
Usually those aerial photos are "for visualization purposes only and owner to verify etc etc". In my neighborhood they show everyone lot lines about 50ft south of where they really are.

Sithly
Mar. 31, 2009, 02:15 AM
Fun times. Your neighbor is a dick. But look at the bright side: Now you can sell your new 5 acres to someone equally obnoxious, and use the proceeds to pay the surveyor and put up a very tall privacy fence. With enough left over to buy nice, prickly hedges and a big dog. :D











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Just kidding. The above does not constitute legal advice. Read at your own risk. Valid in 49 out of 50 states.*










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*Sorry, Iowa.

Guilherme
Mar. 31, 2009, 08:51 AM
In most places I've ever been a legal survey trumps a county map or aireal photo.

In many places it's a crime to move survey stakes.

First, consult with your attorney to see what steps you need to take to protect your interests.

Second, sue the neighbor in small claims court for his half of the survey fees and the cost of re-setting the stakes, if your attorney agrees.

Third, file a criminal complaint with your local police agency over the moving, if your attorney agrees. You might not get a conviction due to the State's burden of proof requirements, but you'll rattle his cage real hard (particularly if you can get an arrest warrant and have him spend a few hours in jail while making bond).

In that complaint be sure to include criminal tresspass (all or part of him had to enter your property to move the stake) and vandalism (damage to your property caused by the moving).

By far the better course would be some sort of agreement between you. Based upon his conduct this is unlikely. And, based upon his conduct, further criminal action against you is not out of the question. You might want to consider some sort of "recording security system" to monitor you barn, pastures, house, etc.

Good luck in your problem. I fear this will not be an easy one to solve.

G.

horsemom429
Mar. 31, 2009, 09:39 AM
a farm i once boarded at had a very similar problem. And this guy was horrible!!! he would throw broken beer bottles and cans right over the fence into the paddocks!!! he just HATED the horses! (go figure!) Anyway..even restraining orders did not help because it was hard to prove it was him. Final solution was that the barn owner put up 8 foot stockade fence along that entire property line and even installed one of those foaling cams. it was expensive but he finally gave up. of course...i am talking about a 15 acre farm. depending how long your property line is this might not be possible!!! but good luck!!! geeezzz.....i just dont get people sometimes.

MistyBlue
Mar. 31, 2009, 10:08 AM
This is one benefit of living in the land of ledge and trees. Our property lines are legally defined and recorded both in degree locations and by landmarks that can't be moved. My property starts at "split V oak" and runs along the road to "triple stand white poplars" and runs back to "15' ledge outcrop with depression" to "5' by 14' ledge outcrop."
I had one single attempt from my neighbor to move the lines. We bought the house and property off of a real shyster. He sold us this house and 4.5 acres and built himself a new house on the 7.5 acres directly behind us, shared driveway. That 7.5 acres is mostly unusable due to much of it being a huge chunk of ledge with a cliff. After we moved in he decided he wanted more flat space and took his big Case and tried to move the ledge outcrop further over...moron didn't realize that "outcrop" means "tip of the iceberg" and that there's a small ledge mountain underground attached to it, LOL! He did some damage to his Case...my ledge property marker is just fine, maybe a few scrapes on it. :winkgrin: We did a happy dance when he sold and retired out of state...the new neighbors are great.

pony89
Mar. 31, 2009, 10:31 AM
You know, it would just not even occur to me to try to move a ledge outcrop, regardless of the heavy equipment I had on hand. I must have no imagination at all.


This is one benefit of living in the land of ledge and trees. Our property lines are legally defined and recorded both in degree locations and by landmarks that can't be moved. My property starts at "split V oak" and runs along the road to "triple stand white poplars" and runs back to "15' ledge outcrop with depression" to "5' by 14' ledge outcrop."
I had one single attempt from my neighbor to move the lines. We bought the house and property off of a real shyster. He sold us this house and 4.5 acres and built himself a new house on the 7.5 acres directly behind us, shared driveway. That 7.5 acres is mostly unusable due to much of it being a huge chunk of ledge with a cliff. After we moved in he decided he wanted more flat space and took his big Case and tried to move the ledge outcrop further over...moron didn't realize that "outcrop" means "tip of the iceberg" and that there's a small ledge mountain underground attached to it, LOL! He did some damage to his Case...my ledge property marker is just fine, maybe a few scrapes on it. :winkgrin: We did a happy dance when he sold and retired out of state...the new neighbors are great.

MintHillFarm
Mar. 31, 2009, 10:50 AM
I can't really fence in the 5 acres...it is in the woods and basically an area that would be tough to do. Even in wire (which I detest) I would be concerned deer would get hung up in it. I will never use this portion of the property for my horses as it is wooded. It's an area the deer like and this neighbor wants to use when he hunts. I did file the complaint with the police, which my lawyer wanted done. I am getting a letter from the surveyors who will atest that the stakes were moved (they are really very angry!!) and will send a copy of this letter to the police to add to the file. Had they not walked back there yesterday with me, I would never have known the line was any different.
If I have any extra money before hunting season this fall, I will have them go back into the woods and mark the trees, high up, with an orange circle on the correct line. I may also hang a few trail cameras along that line and try to catch this creep, the police suggested this too...

MintHillFarm
Mar. 31, 2009, 10:54 AM
a farm i once boarded at had a very similar problem. And this guy was horrible!!! he would throw broken beer bottles and cans right over the fence into the paddocks!!! he just HATED the horses! (go figure!) Anyway..even restraining orders did not help because it was hard to prove it was him. Final solution was that the barn owner put up 8 foot stockade fence along that entire property line and even installed one of those foaling cams. it was expensive but he finally gave up. of course...i am talking about a 15 acre farm. depending how long your property line is this might not be possible!!! but good luck!!! geeezzz.....i just dont get people sometimes.


That's an even bigger jerk that you had to deal with!
My property line is over 1500 ft, alot of which is visable, but some is in the woods where this a*****e can basically do what he wants as he knows I never go back there.

MintHillFarm
Mar. 31, 2009, 10:57 AM
I don't know how it is in New York but...did your neighbor physically move the permanent markers (i.e. rods, metal pins) or just the temporary flagged stakes? In Virginia, if you move the permanent markers I believe it is a felony. You may want an attorney to look into it.

It is a crime, though not a felony in NY and hard to prove on any level, However, who else would have done it? The trooper suggested trail cams, I may do that.

deltawave
Mar. 31, 2009, 11:21 AM
The moron brought it all on himself. Lay low, give him some time to digest the fact that he is the only one to blame for losing "his" 5 acres. It won't be hunting season for another 8 months. :)

I do like the idea of orange circles on the relevant trees, about 15 feet up! :lol: And "no trespassing" signs at the same level. :p

MintHillFarm
Mar. 31, 2009, 01:06 PM
Thanks to all of you for the suggestions and encouragement!

goodhors
Mar. 31, 2009, 04:35 PM
I would pay the surveyor, you may need him if this continues to court. I would pay him for a second trip, IF surveyor did not put down metal markers. Ours used the 8ft reinforcing rods, so even if stakes got moved, you can go locate the rods. They had nice plastic caps, but they disappear after a few years, AND you may not want to call attention to the rods location with the neighbor.

We had a property line dispute, and it was ugly. Our neighbor waited for a YEAR after surveying AND building the fence. Never protested, husband actually asked if we wanted him to pull down his fence that was on our side. We said no, was farm fence, kept his dogs home. She got angry, hired the lawyer, when her call about the tall horse looking in her window, didn't get the proper attention! Their house was built too close to the property line, is only about 12ft over from the fence. Before our ownership, they had mowed more yard for themselves, which the fence had cut off. Again, they never said a word over that long time between fencing and suit filed.

We hired a very good lawyer, who did a very good job. We went before the Judge, told our side. It was a case of "Our Survey" and "Her Survey", because Surveying is NOT an exact science!! We called our Surveyors immediately when served with the papers, he redid everything, came up with the same results. Her Company was a reputable one, but came up VERY differently in results.

She told her side, reasons why her Survey were MORE correct than ours. Judge tossed out the Adverse Possession idea, MI law changed on that years ago, her lawyer didn't tell her for some reason! Then our lawyer said with her markers where they were, it would change ALL the property lines for the WHOLE three miles of suburban properties on her side of the road. We have roads on both ends of our property. Then as we previously agreed with our lawyer, he offered her the disputed footage, if she would pay to have fence moved over. Fence has driven posts, was put in by a crew, so very well installed. NOT something anyone could redo on the weekend with a shovel and posthole diggers. Lawyer said she would not take the offer, since she was the aggrieved party, should not have to pay for fixing it. He was RIGHT!

Judge is faced with two reputable Surveyors, their work in starting with the basic description and measurements. This is when the "Surveying is not an exact science" thing became apparent! Judge decided in our favor, didn't want to face the idea of all those property line disputes, ruled she must pay court expenses. She ended up appealing the decision, took it to Appeals Court. They tossed it out as unworthy, again ruled she had to pay court costs. The family ended up moving out (skipped town) without paying their lawyer or ANY Court costs. Last I knew there was an open warrant on her. Quick claimed the home property to her son, and it eventually was sold.

We ended up with fence unmoved, some nicer new neighbors and our lawyer expenses. He charged by the quarter hour, a lot!! We asked about if they could have won, and he gave us the smirk. Sure glad we never had to go up against him! I believe he could have won either side of the case!! Whole thing was an expensive headache, dragged out over a year. Just nuisance because we thought her complaint of horse looking in the window was unimportant.

Get the metal markers in the ground. You will have markers for proof of your property dimensions. You can put up a cheap perimeter fence, posts and smooth wire, electric. Shows where the line is, so crossing it is obvious. Maybe you didn't want to spend the money now, but if lawyer agrees, you can later go for his part of the NOW PAID expenses. The $2300 is pretty cheap for the newly discovered extra acreage. Heck they sold one acre here, for over $10,000. You got a bargin!

I have another long survey story, about property being surveyed. Surveyor who did his own good research and started with the BASIC corner of the Township. Measured, MARKED, and got my survey done. Turned in his results, which threw off ALL the properties lines along the way for several miles. Created a HUGE uproar and required MUCH resurveying from the correct marker to get things corrected on ALL THOSE PROPERTIES. Those were lakefront cottage properties, sold by the inch of frontages. Sure glad I wasn't living there at the time, took a few years to get totally corrected. Evidently previous surveys had all started at the wrong basic marker. Each new survey job just automatically started at that wrong point. New surveyor to area, did not know that marker, used Court records for references for basic starting point, came up with very different answers, which Court upheld later on.

So best of luck with your situation, don't wait till situation gets cold to do things that need doing. Make sure you show ownership of disputed ground, try to get a line fence up on there. Needs your driven in markers put down. Paint on the ground is visible, don't mark the driven in markers. Again, 8ft reinforcing rod is a good marker, stays down in the ground, top end below the dirt with rock over it, easy to find later on. Get them done promptly, so then the wounds heal along the lines YOU draw with the Surveyors help.

tazz001
Mar. 31, 2009, 05:02 PM
Can I say BTDT one prpoerty line disputes...and according to our neighbors we are the bad eggs...

Original property deed stated the northern boundary was a road, deed dated late 1890's, road has moved south over the years due to farming and hte road being nothing more than a cowpath,. Original deed did have specific distances from corner to corner. Anyway after years of fighting with nieghbors and township supervisors we finally got our property back and the road is not were it ariginally was but close enough...and we own both sides of said road for quite a distance. Kinda locked the adjoing landowner out for a subdivision across from our home.

anyway...thats the short story but it did cost us $7500 in just surveyors...gave up on trying t figure out the lawyer bill..

Do you have anyway of videotaping the re-setting of boundary pins?? That will work to show proof of loacation and who set them...get your surveyor to say hello and identify himself on tape....still have our old VHS tape from 10 years ago and it will still hold up the location of set pins...also you can get a bag of Quik-Krete and did a small hole around pins and set them that way...they are MUCh harder to pull out and have disappear.

AdAblurr02
Mar. 31, 2009, 06:00 PM
Speaking from the perspective of a surveyor - who are the only people who spend more time in court than lawyers.
AKA the second oldest profession - in ancient Egypt, moving or otherwise obliterating survey markers was a crime punishable by DEATH.

Yeah, if the jerk actually pulled your corner pins, call up the surveyor and have them reset - it will be a field time only thing, as he's already done the control traverse work to locate your property and can come right down to within inches with GPS, then put in new markers on your corners and line...
Have him/her document photographically that they did set the points, and how they marked them - Rebar/cap, concrete monument , whatever. Your Record of Survey (may be named slightly differently in your area) is a recorded document depicting exactly what was located and marked. It DOES hold up in court over "occupation", or stuff on the ground that may be on or near the boundary lines.

Even if the other guy has an adverse possession claim, he has to make it stick - and adverse possession is not nearly as easy to prove as some folks think. Your surveyor and his good work are your (and your property's titles) best friend.

Best of luck with the turkey on the other side! I lived next to one of those years ago - I was surveying then in the field - and renting from another civil engineer/land surveyor. Dink neighbor pulled the pins in my back yard - there were three, from three different surveyors (common corner of three properties, surveyed over a five years' period) that fit under the span of my hand. The fence wire literally ran between them... She managed to pull two, but had to resort to driving number three down in the ground - I picked it up with the metal detector to report it was still there :) She's the same one as put her fifty mile hot fence on the inside of MY back yard - to keep my 1-1/2 year old son from "breaking down her fence by climbing on it". Right.... I am soooo glad that twit is in FLORIDA now!

passtime
Mar. 31, 2009, 08:06 PM
I would pay the surveyor what he is owed. Small price to pay for 5 acres. Cement in the pins as well as fence in your new property.

cloudyandcallie
Mar. 31, 2009, 08:13 PM
I think since she was openly possessing it--she had an indoor on it and it was fenced--he is out of luck. I think that would have been her case had it turned out he owned the land.

Either way, lawyers will most likely become involved. I don't think he wants to give up 5 acres without a fight. Hopefully that fight will be in a court of law and not in some night time sneak attack. I would start by getting a court order for him to stay off YOUR property.

Equinelaw is right. Every state has "adverse possession" laws or cases determining how long improved or unimproved property is "adversely possessed" i.e., claimed, until it become the property of the person claiming it. The # of years varies by states, and by whether the property is improved or unimproved, like either a driveway or a wooded area.

Best to, when you buy a house in town or land in the country, have the property surveyed before you buy, buy insurance to cover any disputes, and then as soon as you purchase the property, put up a fence on your side of the line.. If you put your fence up on the line, then you neighbor can "use" the fence, if you put it an inch inside the surveyed property line, the neighbor cannot legally touch your fence without your permission.
Google "adverse possession" in your state and see what the law is there.

HighFlyinBey++
Mar. 31, 2009, 11:02 PM
In most places I've ever been a legal survey trumps a county map or aireal photo.
:yes: GIS/computer mapping is what feeds my horses. Even though I use legal surveys to place my parcels, the actual individual survey does trump the entire digital county map. In fact, the surveyor's measurements trump the paper it's printed on because distortion can occur during the copy or print process. There are also times that I do adjust neighboring parcel lines based on a new survey or the aerial photos. Aerials are great tools for locating where lines "should" be, but they're not gospel.


This is one benefit of living in the land of ledge and trees. Our property lines are legally defined and recorded both in degree locations and by landmarks that can't be moved. My property starts at "split V oak" and runs along the road to "triple stand white poplars" and runs back to "15' ledge outcrop with depression" to "5' by 14' ledge outcrop."
I despise deeds with references such as these or to property owned by "J. Doe."

Um, seriously? Won't the trees will die at some point & the neighboring property sold or J. Doe die? Those references are not permanent! Why oh WHY couldn't the surveyors be omniscient and realize this and make my job easier?! :winkgrin:

Guilherme
Apr. 1, 2009, 09:37 AM
:yes: GIS/computer mapping is what feeds my horses. Even though I use legal surveys to place my parcels, the actual individual survey does trump the entire digital county map. In fact, the surveyor's measurements trump the paper it's printed on because distortion can occur during the copy or print process. There are also times that I do adjust neighboring parcel lines based on a new survey or the aerial photos. Aerials are great tools for locating where lines "should" be, but they're not gospel.

Indeed. The deed defines the metes and bounds and the survey puts them on the ground (or maybe it's the other way 'round ;) ). In any event it's the combination of the two that determines legal ownership.


:I despise deeds with references such as these or to property owned by "J. Doe."

Um, seriously? Won't the trees will die at some point & the neighboring property sold or J. Doe die? Those references are not permanent! Why oh WHY couldn't the surveyors be omniscient and realize this and make my job easier?! :winkgrin:

We owned a farm north of Milwaukee in the '70s. I got the abstract of title prior to closing and was able to review all the way back to the Federal land patent in 1845. There were multiple references to rocks and trees and other "permanant" feature in early deeds.

The place I'm on now was part of a 10,000+ acre land grant in the 1790s. My deed still refers to a 36" oak tree on one corner that was cut down about 25 years ago. :cool: The legal description takes almost a page and a half, as one boundry is the meander line of a ridge about 2500 feet long and another follows a creek bed. Lots of turns there, don't you know!!!!

I attended a "surveying for lawyers" seminar back in the early '90s. In most surveys in TN the old "rocks and trees" methods of description are giving way to stakes, metes, and bounds. That's generally good, I guess, but it's a whole lot easier to move a stake than it is a 36" oak tree. :lol: It is a crime, though, to remove a survey stake.

The OP should also seriously consider fencing the woods in spite of difficulty and risk to deer. If the neighbor takes domain of the area under a claim of right then he beings the running of clock on a claim of "adverse possetion." While this a very long clock (20 years in most places; I don't know about NY) it has to start someplace. Indeed, it may have already started based upon the photos and county map. So, again, she should consult a local attorney and get The Word on what she needs to do to protect her interests.

A few hundred spent now may save several tens of thousands in the future.

Good luck to her in whatever she does.

G.

MintHillFarm
Apr. 1, 2009, 02:08 PM
My attorney as well as the surveyor & county tax person at the courthouse, all said that as long as the boundary line map is filed (it was on 3/30, Monday) there is nothing, short of this jerk re-surveying just to make an issue, that he can do. He has no money to fight this, I would bet on that...

I am going to pay the surveyor in full and will contemplate taking the idiot to small claims court for his share.

I spoke to the surveyor again this morning and I want them to reset the pins (likely in concrete) in the fall when it is closer to deer season. We will go onto my wooded property from the back so my neighbor does not see us entering the woods. We will also mark with orange surveyor's orange paint, high up on the trunks of the trees next to the re-set pins.

My attorney said it may take some months, but eventually the county will update the arierl showing the new property boundary...thanks again everyone.

ejm
Apr. 1, 2009, 06:09 PM
Sounds like you are doing everything you can. He is still your neighbor, and you still have to get along as best you can, even if he is being a grade A jerk right now. Honestly, if we lost 5 acres off our farm in a new survey, I'd be upset for a while even if I knew the survey was accurate. If he has been hunting on the land in question, and you have no philosophical objections to hunting, maybe you could let him continue to hunt there.

omare
Apr. 1, 2009, 06:23 PM
I have nothing valuable to add-but I had a neighbor that also pulled up surveyor markings to the best of his ability-a smarter person than myself suggested getting those long metal stakes (I think they use them for cement-re-bar ??) about 3 foot long--and drive them in at /close to the surveyor stake and pound it so it is covered --does not need to be covered by much--my guy never figured out it was there--but I can still find it! Good luck!

RegentLion
Apr. 1, 2009, 07:36 PM
I can't really comment on the survey issue, but I CAN comment on deer-fence issues....

We have deer run through our horse pasture ALL THE TIME. Some times they take down the fence but since we've planned for this eventuality by the way we fence, it isn't a hard thing to put back up and doesn't seem to harm the deer any.

So what I would do is put fence posts of some sort up (T posts or cedar posts) and then an insulator and a single strand of hot wire a few feet up off the ground. You wouldn't even need to electrify it. If you flag it pretty well the deer will get used to it and it won't be a problem for them. You may have to check it and put it back up if they pull it down but that is not a big deal as you're talking a single wire.

We've never had a deer "caught" in the fence either, because it is two rows of single wire (about 5 inches apart several feet off the ground) it seems to snap/break and little to no damage to the deer. The horses are contained in this type of fencing as well.

Not "ideal" but because my in-laws had a horse severely damaged by a 3 strand fence that got tangled, they REFUSE to have anything more than the bare minimum to keep the horses in. They do have a really good fencer. My horses are obviously kept @ my in laws and so I have no say in the fencing, but it WORKS!

When the deer ran through the fence the last time, the horses didn't even go through the opening--I guess they still thought the fence was up.


Good luck with your neighbor and fence your woods without delay. Good fences make good neighbors.... or maybe at least an honest neighbor!

Alagirl
Apr. 1, 2009, 07:46 PM
Sounds like you are doing everything you can. He is still your neighbor, and you still have to get along as best you can, even if he is being a grade A jerk right now. Honestly, if we lost 5 acres off our farm in a new survey, I'd be upset for a while even if I knew the survey was accurate. If he has been hunting on the land in question, and you have no philosophical objections to hunting, maybe you could let him continue to hunt there.


But 5 acres is not a whole lot in terms of hunting. It's a big back yard or a long narrow strip of nothing.

Unless he put feed plots out there he won't miss it much. Would be his turn to kiss up to the OP if he wants to hunt there...but that's just me... ;)

cloudyandcallie
Apr. 1, 2009, 08:55 PM
Who has been paying the taxes on that land all this time? OP or neighbor?

ttldr1
Apr. 1, 2009, 11:27 PM
I know all too well about neighbors and property disputes been going through it for a few years now. Property was surveyed when I bought it 5 years ago (and still lived in MI) by the time I got down to SC the neighbor had moved and/or removed all of the flagged stakes and pounded the metal stakes so far into the ground that I had to get a metal detector to find them. OK had a general idea where the property line was so I didn't encrouch with any fencing, buildings, landscaping etc. Let neighbor use the back end and left side of property to get behind thier pasture without having to get on and off vehicle (tractor, gator, etc.) to open and close gates.

Well neighbor started to get ugly about all sorts of things and it was time to break off the good neighbor policy. Had to have another survey done. When survey was done I went out and took pictures of exactly where stakes were placed by surveyors with unchangable points included in pictures. Neighbor is caught by my mother a few days later pounding a t-post into the ground at the front end of the property by where the driveway comes off the road a good 10 feet inside the property line on my side, now mind you there is a line of flagged surveyors stakes that were just placed there a few days earlier, but she put this post in where she felt the property line was. I got home from work, took a picture of her ratty old t-post with the surveyors stake in the same picture, pulled her post out and tossed it back onto her property.

My brother came down and helped me build a run in shed/hay storage barn that I researched the permit requirements and how far off property line it had to be placed. We measured the placement 3 times prior to placing footings to make sure it was within county guidelines. Put perimeter fencing up around entire property on behind the house and cemented the flagged surveyors stakes in with the fence posts except for one where we came off of the property line to tie the fenc into the back of the shed (just made it easier/cleaner than running the fence on the line in this short area) but stakes was left where it had been placed. Neighbor proceeds to cut a access line on her side of the property line to get behind her pasture that she used to cut accross my properrty to get to but can not any longer due to my fence being there and while doing this pulls the one stake that is not cemented in and moves it closer to the fence so that at first glance it looks like my building is too close to the property line then files a formal complaint with the county about my building being to close to the property line and my not getting a permit for installing the building. I respond to said complauint to the county with a few sworn statements from friends and brother who witnessed (and even helped) with the building construction as to the measurements that wre taken prior to placement, where the stake was prior to neighbor moving it and what the cost of the building (if the cost is under X$ and is owner built no permit is required and we were well below that limit) was along with stake placement pictures. Never heard from county again and still have complaint letter hanging on the side of the fridge in case crazy neighbor ever comes around again.

I have since fenced in most of the front of the property, again cementing the flagged stakes is with the fence posts and sent neighbor a registered/return reciept letter advising her to stop trespassing onto my property and harrassing me or there will be legal ramifications.

MintHillFarm
Apr. 2, 2009, 10:20 AM
CLOUDYANDCALLIE - I have been paying taxes on 40 acres (though now I have 45.52 acres) neighbor has been paying on 25 which has been diminshed since the boundary line has been surveyed, now he owns 19.52 acres.

MintHillFarm
Apr. 2, 2009, 10:24 AM
TTDLR1 - What a PAIN! I would use another word but I am respectful enough not to do so! I feel terrible for you. How do these creepy people sleep at night; especially under that rock they crawl out of everyday...

nightsong
Apr. 2, 2009, 10:31 AM
Must be a New York thing. My neighbor did the same with us and his neighbor on the other side. Moved the markers after we had just had the land surveyed.
I contemplated having a fencer put in stone pillars where the markers were, you know dig 5 feet pour in cement and put nice stone pillar on top. But I didn't. He is absurdly sneaky and keeps on cutting and putting his grass on our side. Honestly ? I think he has a mental tick. Every once in a while we push the grass back. Oh well, "there's none so queer as folks" :winkgrin:

Hold your ground, literally AND figuratively. When someone uses your land for a certain period, it becomes THEIRS, legally. And he's trespassing, with your knowledge. Not good.

MintHillFarm
Apr. 2, 2009, 10:37 AM
But 5 acres is not a whole lot in terms of hunting. It's a big back yard or a long narrow strip of nothing.

Unless he put feed plots out there he won't miss it much. Would be his turn to kiss up to the OP if he wants to hunt there...but that's just me... ;)

He wants that strip of woods. He has feed lots right on the other side in his field so the deer must cross there. He moved the stakes to incorporate more woods off the food area he plants...
I had originally suggested to him that we swap some land. I would give him the land in the woods in exchange for the partially wooded/semi field that I thought was mine, as the folks I bought the farm from indicated it was. The way the boundary line now comes out is, instead of following the tree/brushline as the old owners had told me, it actually cuts through the small field on a diagonal. I don't use that field really but it makes the visible boundary line very screwy and the road I do use is now useless. We know what the line was intended to be (surveyors said that too) but what went on the deed is not what we had thought. Not to mention the road I had cut in around the large pond to go my manure pile now is 1/2 his and 1/2 mine so I have to go around another way. I also offered him sole lifetime hunting rights to all my woods and would not let anyone else back there. Now he has screwed himself as I intend to let friends from NJ come and hunt there (I am certainly no fan of it, but don't want him shooting on my property). I think he will frankly be very ticked off about that when he sees other hunters out there. He should have taken the land swap, but he is not reasonable and frankly I don't think he realized that the new boundary line took away woods from him. I do know from someone else that I allowed back there last season, is he is all over my woods based on his boot tracks. What crap this is!

SGray
Apr. 2, 2009, 10:50 AM
CLOUDYANDCALLIE - I have been paying taxes on 40 acres (though now I have 45.52 acres) neighbor has been paying on 25 which has been diminshed since the boundary line has been surveyed, now he owns 19.52 acres.

shouldn't you refund neighbor the taxes he has paid on that 5 acres in order to solidify your claim vs his claim?

MistyBlue
Apr. 2, 2009, 11:08 AM
I despise deeds with references such as these or to property owned by "J. Doe."

Um, seriously? Won't the trees will die at some point & the neighboring property sold or J. Doe die? Those references are not permanent! Why oh WHY couldn't the surveyors be omniscient and realize this and make my job easier?!
I wouldn't be happy either if that was the only boundary description. We also have bearings. But since CT is one of the thirteen original colonies we do have legal descriptions as metes and bounds after England's system. We never went legally to the PLSS way of determining property bounds.
The good news is...the ledge outcrops were there before humans and will be here forever unless someone blasts them out. We do have some areas that use cement markers...they're pretty massive with a brass or copper top so you can find them via metal detector when they grow over.
But the metes and bounds have their benefits...if a neighbor says their property starts HERE all we have to do is grab the sheet explaining the metes and bounds and point to the ledge and so, "Nope, it starts THERE." No need to pay for surveys every time there's a property dispute, they can't move the ledge and can't argue it's location. If the land isn't exactly square or rectangle it gets a tad harder but they do add descriptions like "so many degrees n/nw to ___ and then so many degrees north to ____."

MintHillFarm
Apr. 2, 2009, 12:00 PM
shouldn't you refund neighbor the taxes he has paid on that 5 acres in order to solidify your claim vs his claim?


No need to as per my attorney. Apparently there is no recourse for him to do that...thank goodness.

ttldr1
Apr. 2, 2009, 10:05 PM
TTDLR1 - What a PAIN! I would use another word but I am respectful enough not to do so! I feel terrible for you. How do these creepy people sleep at night; especially under that rock they crawl out of everyday...

If I find that rock while they are under it one gay I may pour some concrete over it so they can not get out again. They have been better as far as we know since getting the letter (haven't caught them on the cameras yet) except for one time about 3 months ago when they were working thier manure mountain that is in thier lot next to my property. Apparently they found a piece of black plastic sheeting (that they use under thier round bales in thier storage shed) in the manure and neighbor grabbed it and was walking towards the fence by my gelding and would of thrown it into his pasture had my mother not stuck her head out the back door and looked at her. She propmtly huffed, turned tail and headed back to her golf cart with the plastic in her hand.

Joanne
Apr. 2, 2009, 10:29 PM
Is it time for a new place to dump the manure? Maybe near the official border?

MintHillFarm
Apr. 3, 2009, 03:24 PM
Is it time for a new place to dump the manure? Maybe near the official border?


But I will certainly try doing that when the ground gets drier.

maunder
Apr. 4, 2009, 07:22 AM
I've had trouble with an encroaching neighbor for 20 years. He (allegedly - since he won't admit to doing it) pulls out survey stakes, crosses the property line with his backhoe, tampers with a stream on my property, etc... He dumped horse manure over the line last summer. He had no idea that wasn't an insult to me:lol:.

The concrete in the survey stakes is a good idea. I've also had the sheriff up and the sheriff was disappointed that there was no way to charge the neighbor for making the survey pins and stakes disappear. If the man pushes me hard enough I will get him for trespassing and surveillance is important for that.

Trail cams are good - but the sheriff indicated that these can be tampered with even if chained to a tree. He said I should try wireless surveillance! Costly. I document the line as often as I'm up walking in the woods - it's a long line at 1500 feet. I take photos when I'm walking anyway so to snap a few along the line helps. What I'd really like is one of those little helicopters that you can fly remote control to patrol your land. Wouldn't that be great?!

I should note that I do have full, correct documentation to my ownership of the land filed with my County. Paperwork is exact and correct.

cloudyandcallie
Apr. 4, 2009, 09:01 AM
Paying taxes on property is one indicia of ownership that the courts in my state look at to determine ownership of disputed land.
But if the OP made improvements, such as the arena being build without the neighbor complaining about it, and by fencing off a pasture pr paddock, then the land becomes "improved" land and in my state, just needs to be claimed by OP for a certain number of years before it becomes hers.

I assume NY has similar laws, and that OP has met the requirements of the number of years since she "claimed" the land and improved it.

Just watch out for retaliation from the neighbor.

Renae
Apr. 4, 2009, 09:36 AM
Is it time for a new place to dump the manure? Maybe near the official border?

As I said before you should be watching yourself with what you are doing with your manure if you have an upset neightbor. Do this and they may have every reason to call the EPA on you. One farm I was at had a neighbor dumping his lawn clippings, kicthen waste, etc. over the fence into the pasture behind his back yard and when we asked him to stop he called the EPA and complained about how we were spreading and we had to have an inspector come out.

ayrabz
Apr. 4, 2009, 11:38 AM
interesting thread---
right now, we're finalizing a deal on fencing. I purposely asked fence installer to be sure to set the fenceline back from the property line a few feet on 'our' side...thinking this was best, and most correct, even though county says it could be directly on the line. Fencer guy told me that often, once a fence does go up, it can 'redefine' the property line! Anyone else ?
(and again...didn't mean to hijack)

BasqueMom
Apr. 4, 2009, 11:45 AM
Yes, the fence line can redetermine the property. In Colorado, after 18 years (I think),
the fence line becomes the property line.

MintHillFarm
Apr. 4, 2009, 03:39 PM
interesting thread---
right now, we're finalizing a deal on fencing. I purposely asked fence installer to be sure to set the fenceline back from the property line a few feet on 'our' side...thinking this was best, and most correct, even though county says it could be directly on the line. Fencer guy told me that often, once a fence does go up, it can 'redefine' the property line! Anyone else ?
(and again...didn't mean to hijack)

My new boundary line has added about 15 more feet on the other side of my 3-Board fence line so now I own a strip closer to his house; I could have added more to my top paddock, what a shame.The added strip is big & wide enough to drive my tractor and dump cart; I should unload the manure there in a big long strip along side his new line; it's not that far from his bedroom window...ONLY KIDDING!

cloudyandcallie
Apr. 4, 2009, 03:44 PM
interesting thread---
right now, we're finalizing a deal on fencing. I purposely asked fence installer to be sure to set the fenceline back from the property line a few feet on 'our' side...thinking this was best, and most correct, even though county says it could be directly on the line. Fencer guy told me that often, once a fence does go up, it can 'redefine' the property line! Anyone else ?
(and again...didn't mean to hijack)

Yes it can. Put your fence "just" inside the line. Have the surveyor mark it, or if the old fence is on the line, put your fence an inch inside. Really, it's what I did. Then the neighbors cannot tear down the fence or put anything on it, or cut your plants growing on it (altho my neighbor does trim). Saves you a lot of grief and aggrevation. I had put up an ugly 6 ft chain link fence just inside the line, then had a stockade fence put up just inside it, as the neighbors put their unfenced-in pool right up against the property line (and they are not attractive out drunk in their bathing suits.:eek:)

MistyBlue
Apr. 4, 2009, 03:59 PM
I had put up an ugly 6 ft chain link fence just inside the line, then had a stockade fence put up just inside it, as the neighbors put their unfenced-in pool right up against the property line (and they are not attractive out drunk in their bathing suits
I was at a town hall meeting last spring waiting for another trail subject to come up when a woman presented to get a variance to increase her stockade fence from the acceptable 6' height to a 10' height one. Her reason was that her neighbor's pool was visible from her back patio and she could no longer stomach watching him swim and he was still visible with the 6' fence and a tad too flirtatious. She then produced a large blow up photo taken from her patio of a man about 350 lbs, about 65 years old and wearing a tiny speedo bathing suit...he had enough hair on his back, shoulders, butt (suit didn't quite cover that arse) and front to look like Bigfoot had a love child with a grey buffalo. :eek: She got the variance *and* the condolences of pretty much everyone there. :lol: :lol: :lol:

gazenna
Apr. 4, 2009, 04:03 PM
minthillfarms,,,, I truly feel bad for you...We just went through with our neighbors, They moved here from Chicago a few years ago. Well as far as I know its finally setteled now, and we did lose about 10 ft. on one corner. We were ok with that , and the horses dont mind, so its all good. Again Goodluck to you......

Alagirl
Apr. 4, 2009, 08:06 PM
I was at a town hall meeting last spring waiting for another trail subject to come up when a woman presented to get a variance to increase her stockade fence from the acceptable 6' height to a 10' height one. Her reason was that her neighbor's pool was visible from her back patio and she could no longer stomach watching him swim and he was still visible with the 6' fence and a tad too flirtatious. She then produced a large blow up photo taken from her patio of a man about 350 lbs, about 65 years old and wearing a tiny speedo bathing suit...he had enough hair on his back, shoulders, butt (suit didn't quite cover that arse) and front to look like Bigfoot had a love child with a grey buffalo. :eek: She got the variance *and* the condolences of pretty much everyone there. :lol: :lol: :lol:

ROFLMAO! The poor woman! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: