Small Animal Vet Vent! [Archive]

Penthilisea

Mar. 26, 2009, 11:53 AM

I guess I am spoiled by having access to a handful of terrific large animal vet clinics locally to choose from. All in the same price range and top class vets and staff.

But locally, small animals are the majority, so there are a ton of small animal vet practices. And I am TIRED of getting upsold/overcharged/double booked etc!

For 15 years my family took dogs and cats to a vet clinic, definetly pricey but we thought we were getting top of the line care. They even offered us a 5% multi pet discount! But three years ago we moved further away, and now money is SUPER tight so I have been looking for advice on a more local vet. The last visit to Pricey Pet Vet went something like this:
Exam for cat 1: $89. Yearly Shots: $125
Diagnosis of severe dental issues- quoted $500 for dental surgery.
So I walked out with a bill of $192 for one cat, and the promise of $500 in the near future!

And I admit, I didn't have the money. I have 6 cats and two horses. A sudden $500 non life or death surgery is not in the cards.
A year elapses and I am taking cat 2 to New Local Vet for a follow up to her mushy paw disease (which pricey pet vet missed for 3 years somehow??). I call and ask if I can bring in Cat 2 for dental surgery since I am so pleased with the care of New Local Vet. No problem.
So todays visit looked like this:
Steriod Shot for Cat 2: $25
Exam for Cat 1: $35
Cat 1 does not need dental surgery, in fact she allowed the vet to use a dental tool and scrape plaque off of her teeth in the office. There is no infection,she is in no pain and has no trouble eating. I'm satisfied!
So the bill for today for TWO cats was $60. Sorry, no multi pet discount is offered.

WHat the heck is going on here? Are small animal vets just in it for the money? Are the service prices inflated that high? Was I being sold a bill of goods? Pricey Pet Vet never did anything I would consider bad, but in the light of this new experience I have to wonder, was I being an uneducated consumer?

AKB

Mar. 26, 2009, 12:06 PM

Small animal vets have a lot more overhead (office, receptionist) than a farm vet. They also earn more. Check the average vet salaries for new vets out of school, compiled by the AVMA. A new equine vet earns something like $32,000/year for what is usually a 60-80 hour work week. A new grad small animal vet earns about double that, for what is usually a 45 hour work week. Many veterinarians are not good business managers. Therefore, they end up charging high fees, but not bringing home big incomes. I'm not saying the the charges from the small animal clinic are fair, but I wouldn't blame the veterinarian for gouging/overcharging you. Most veterinarians are not getting rich off of their clients. A few are getting rich, but they are the minority.

Ghazzu

Mar. 26, 2009, 12:42 PM

Scraping plaque off an unsedated cat is not thorough dental treatment. Any radiographs?
Standards of care differ. If money's tight, and you can't spring for the full monty, do what you can, but it doesn't mean the vet recommending comprehensive care is ripping you off.

Just speaking as someone who has had not only regular tooth cleaning but also sub gingival scaling myself...

Parker_Rider

Mar. 26, 2009, 01:45 PM

WHat the heck is going on here? Are small animal vets just in it for the money? Are the service prices inflated that high? Was I being sold a bill of goods? Pricey Pet Vet never did anything I would consider bad, but in the light of this new experience I have to wonder, was I being an uneducated consumer?

I have wondered this in the past few weeks too!!! I love my large animal vets (Littleton Large in Denver and Tryon Equine in NC - Just plugging, since that seems to be what I'm doing today... ;)) as they do a wonderful job and charge an appropriate amount. However, my small animal vet has continued to make me want to run screaming in the opposite direction for quite some time (which I'm now storming angrily away).

Last week I dropped my dog off for routine x-rays at 8 in the morning, when the office opened. When I walked in there was this beautiful Golden Retriever standing there, looking like she had a neuro issue or something serious going on (head dragging to one side, tongue lolling out, drooling abnormally). The lady had taken this dog to this clinic because they opened at 8 and she had heard "good things" about the vet. Well, even though the office was open, the vet wasn't in and wasn't going to be in for an hour. This lady should take her dog to the emergency clinic 5 min down the road to make sure the dog was stable and then bring her to this clinic at 9. "Don't let them admit her!" was the last thing the receptionists and vet techs said to this woman. What?! Since when do you tell someone NOT to do something that could save their dog in order to gain the office fee for your clinic?!

What happened to small animal vets who cared about the animal? I understand the need to keep business, but overcharging for things and first considering the money aspect was not in that veterinarian oath that they took.... I totally understand where you're coming from, Penthilisea!!! I, too, feel like it's gotten a tad out of hand.

CatOnLap

Mar. 26, 2009, 01:46 PM

Our large animal vet has a group practice that includes small animal vets. I am very pleased with their service, but it is pricey. While I don't get a multiple animal discount, even though I have 10 animals registered with them, they will fit me at the drop of a hat and they do house calls for very old frail small animals...

vacation1

Mar. 26, 2009, 01:52 PM

I've never (knock wood) had a problem with vets over pricing, but I know people who have, and they're mostly people with multiple pets who are under greater financial pressure when something crops up. I think the small animal practices have different prices sometimes because, like any medical office, they have different clients and different attitudes. I used to go to a very basic vet who missed a fairly big thing, and I switched to a practice which is the sort which will present you with 10 options, some of them pricey, in response to a question like "Why's my dog so itchy?" The first group was in a very working-class town, with clients who loved their pets but mostly weren't prepared to pay for orthopedic surgery (for example) on them, and it was just a very basic vet - you go there, you tell them exactly what you want, they provide it, and that's it. They missed the big problem even though I'd taken the animal there about it - a quick checkover didn't find it, so we were out the door. No xrays, no tests, nothing. You get what you pay for, directly and indirectly. Current vet is a bigger facility in a more prosperous area with clients who are routinely willing to pay for big-ticket procedures or treatments, and their approach reflects that; you get a big menu when you take an animal there, and some things are expensive.

I'm sure some vets are cheats; there are con artists in every profession. But in general, the vets I've met have been good people.

f4leggin

Mar. 26, 2009, 01:57 PM

OK... I agree with the OP - I recently had two kittens neutered and declawed (not mentioned to get flamed - but it was part of the procedure - thus the cost). That was $350 a piece. I have two puppies that need to be neutered - males - and the estimate per dog is 250 to 400. I checked with my local humane society and their price is $80 a dog - and I know they charge enough to pay for my dog and the extra goes to spay one of their dogs - so that's $40 a dog. My best friend works there and know the care is not substandard. The vet time is volunteered I think.

Bottom line for me is, I love my small animal vet, I know they are great - but I have 5 dogs and 2 cats - it seems I am there way too often and it's like Costco - everytime I go there, I can't get out under $200.

I really am questioning if I should get my puppies neutered at the clinic and save myself money for future small and large animal vet bills. The other thing that is hard is I feel like the small animal techs are always trying to sell me some procedure or another. I never ever ever get that feeling from my horse vet.

Jill

BuddyRoo

Mar. 26, 2009, 02:15 PM

I think standard of care plus location/market really affect people's perception of this sort of thing.

I worked in one capacity or another at a small animal clinic for nearly 10 years.

We were the first AAHA accredited hospital in the county. We had a nice facility, state of the art equipment and staff who were trained to use it. We employed assistants as well as certified techs. We offered 24 hour emergency service. We didn't cut corners to keep costs down--we offered the best, not the cheapest.

We spent a lot of time on client education--making sure that people knew what vaccines were available, what treatments were available, etc. On more than one occasion, that would piss people off because in their mind, all their dog needed was a rabies vaccination. Or when recommending a dental prophy, people would laugh and scoff--"I've had dogs 30 years and I've never had their teeth cleaned. What kinda scam are you runnin'?"

Most of those folks had been using some small town mixed practice vet and they had very little interest on staying up to date on new procedures. The vets did what people asked them to do. No more, no less.

In this day and age, more and more people have a dog or cat who is not only their pet, but a family member. They're willing to spend money to prevent, diagnose, and treat problems. As a result, more research and development has gone into veterinary medicine and there are now more services available now than ever before. We can offer much higher quality of care than we used to.

Not everyone is INTERESTED in providing that quality or level of care.

I know a lot of people thought I was a whackadoo when my dog started having seizures last year and I ended up spending about 7k in total...after visits to my vet, tests, then a consult with the neurologist, CSF, etc. But we had the tools available and I wanted to use them. (my dog is doing great!) I'm sure there are some people who would've just euth'd...and that's their right, but more and more there are people who want that access to care for their pets.

I'm sorry for those of you who have had bad experiences or feel like you're being "upsold" all the time. I'm sure there are some practices that are like that. But I know at ours, we were just trying to offer the best care.

BuddyRoo

Mar. 26, 2009, 02:18 PM

F4?

Not sure how it is in your area...but where I was, the reduced price spay/neuters through the HS were bidded out to local vets. Lowest bidder wins.

Some of those vets kept the prices low by doing things like not using anesthesia.

In other places, those reduced prices are basically a donation by local vets.

Or in others, they charge only for the cost of the tools/anes. They don't charge enough to profit in any way.

Different kinds of anesthetic are also more expensive. For example, isoflurane gas is safer and you can turn it right off if there's a problem vs an injectible that you have no control over. But it's more expensive.

I dunno...price shopping for surgical procedures seems like a bad idea to me--but again, that's from my experience walking in on some of it.

WorthTheWait95

Mar. 26, 2009, 02:43 PM

DeeThbd

Mar. 26, 2009, 02:50 PM

I'd rather pay more for meds or other things than seeing spaying and neutering costs run up....in my area, there are NO reduced-cost clinics, but HUGE problems with cat and dog overpopulations.....I paid about $700 for neutering my two youngest male cats, vaccinations and a small hernia surgery (gap in the abdomen wall - probably umbilical). The last item wasn't such a huge cost in the bill - so, even breaking that down a bit, it still seems high. People here routinely dump kittens or pregnant female cats, which is just sad.
Dee

MistyBlue

Mar. 26, 2009, 02:57 PM

Vet care is expensive...period. Small and large animal. At least in the last few years I have not had a vet visit cost less than $300. Even routine stuff.
But...it is what it is.
I have yet to find any vets charging on different ends of the cost scale yet where I live...slight differences in charges but nothing to make me go :eek:. I would enjoy having a low cost vet visit...or even better: having pets that stop requiring so many freaking vet visits.
My rant would be more of: Are there any HEALTHY animals out there anymore? :lol: :no: :lol: :sigh:
I even went out of my way to do extensive research when I got my current dog...making sure and waiting for a pup that had both parents OFA Excellent, going over all health records for both parents, etc. So I am now blessed with a GSD who has been x-rayed and according to the specialist has the "best hips, spine and joints" they've seen in a long long time. So small worries for those future operations. Instead he has a pinched nerve and allergies. :sigh: The pinched nerve in his back only reacts to acupuncture, only one rather expensive vet not close by does that. The allergy test alone was $1200...thankfully the syringes come in huge boxes and are relatively inexpensive...the stuff we inject is $160 every 3 months or so, not bad either.
Now my cat has kidney issues which required a clinic stay and then special food which ran about $1000 5 weeks ago. 2 weeks ago she had to go back because we thought her kidneys were getting bad again, turned out kidney values are fin but x-rays show kidney stones. Another $700. New special food. 4 days ago she starts drooling thick clear saliva that stinks to high heaven...ulcers and abcesses...ulcer on her tongue and 2 abcesses starting on the roof of her mouth. Short stay, meds, etc for $372. (and she's not looking much better or eating right either)Dog just came off Doxy for Lyme AGAIN...*sigh* it's just never ending. Now one of the feral cats from outside is drooling too...not eating or drinking right so I ran to the vets today and they sold me more of the same pain meds and antibiotics my indoor cat is on for a decent price without an eval (not really my cat) so that wasn't too bad but these things just keep adding up. It sucks when there's *normally* 3-4 months per year when our vet bills come to more than our mortgage. Spring shots are coming up...both need floating too. That'll be at least $500. At least that's routine though.
I'm ready to throw in the towel.

Penthilisea

Mar. 26, 2009, 03:13 PM

I am all for high quality services and care.

But I am unemployed and trying to do right by my animals. It was a choice to take them, but now I don't have a choice to "offload" them. Everyone gets fed, so it's not like we're down to euthanasia or starvation, but the difference between a $500 dental surgery and a $35 scraping so we can get by is a lifesaver this month.

This might enable me to literally keep my house or car.

I didn't want to cry but this vet's charitable and flexible work today has lifted a HUGE weight off my neck, thinking my poor cat is suffering or in pain and the truth is, she's eating fine, and there are no signs of infection or broken teeth etc.

If she needed the surgery I would do it. But if she doesn't NEED it, why didn't pricey pet vet give me the option- KNOWING I have multiple pets all of whom are "special needs"?

I know people who are worse off, and I have a strong support network of friends equine and otherwise (and a kindly BO who lets me work towards board as well as pay shamefully late). What are those people who have been out of work for more then 2 months doing? Those with kids?

BuddyRoo

Mar. 26, 2009, 03:17 PM

Well...did the other place KNOW there was a financial issue?

I've always worked with vets who would give you some options if there was a financial constraint.

JanM

Mar. 26, 2009, 03:58 PM

Unfortunately, there are people who intensively 'market' unneeded services in every profession and it isn't limited to veterinarians. The next time you're at the people doctors office or dentist office notice the number of advertisements for services that are everywhere. And there are people in every profession that recommend medical and cosmetic procedures you don't need, and just like any other service profession you need to shop around for prices.

SuperSTB

Mar. 26, 2009, 04:14 PM

Back east I had a nice local small animal vet. She did a good job, while I thought it was more on the premium side in fees, I didn't really mind paying the few extra bucks. I had been taking the cats to a cat specific clinic but they screwed up royally and I almost lost one of the cats. It was the last straw to declining services anyhooo... local vet gets really hard to schedule anything, her hours were limited and her client list had obviously grown. Soooo in the new shopping plaza, the pet chain store opens the 'vet' clinic. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. I get a vet plan for each of my dogs. That turned out to be one of the worst decisions ever.

Anyway, the vets were pretty good, but the fees and the other shinanagins were insane. Then I moved and the plan was supposidly transferrable but ended up not being because the offices couldn't seem to communicate with each other. They messed up my automatic billing. Took another year to sort it out.

Now I've found another local vet. Man I feel like life is back to normal. They are good and priced very affordably. They don't push extra services. PLUS the local animal shelter runs vaccination clinics which are very cheap. So I get some vaccs at the clinic and the yearly plus specialized services at my vet. It doesn't cost me more than an average of $100 per animal per year :)

RegentLion

Mar. 26, 2009, 09:47 PM

Without getting into it, I too am fed up with my small animal vet. Not JUST for the pricing but the CARE and also the way the office staff/receptionists treat the patients/clients.

I don't like going somewhere and being treated rudely, especially when I'm spending $$$$$ there. I am not the only one that has this complaint with this office.

There are 3 other vets in the area, one I quasi-like (but they will try to diagnose your pet over the phone whenever possible), one I LOVE but is elderly and a brittle diabetic and could retire at any moment.... and the other one missed a BIG thing on my horse (a testicle.....) so.

I feel like in my area I simply don't have a good option. :no:

At this point I would be "ok" but not thrilled to pay big prices IF I FELT I WAS GETTING GOOD CARE FOR MY ANIMAL. I just don't feel that--with maybe the exception of the elderly gentleman. But I'm afraid to get attached because I'll be devistated when he retires. :(

vacation1

Mar. 26, 2009, 09:51 PM

Some of those vets kept the prices low by doing things like not using anesthesia.

:eek:

I would enjoy having a low cost vet visit...or even better: having pets that stop requiring so many freaking vet visits.
My rant would be more of: Are there any HEALTHY animals out there anymore?

I wonder that too.... First dog (1980s)- no problems until cancer at 12. Second dog (1990s) - no problems until cancer (early, tragic, still, no major health issues otherwise). Current dog - made of glass.:lol: I suppose it could just be that there are more options out there for treatments and I was just lucky dogs 1 & 2 didn't have 3's nonstop drama (currently showing Allergies II: Springtime's Revenge), but I'm not convinced.

SmokenMirrors

Mar. 26, 2009, 10:02 PM

I have an elderly 13 year old dog, he is old, I know this, he has hip dysplasia and some arthritis and is on medication and an injection for it. Three times now I have gone in with a certain time for my appointment, we waited and waited, my poor old dog having a hard time standing on the linoleum floor, so I ask when will we be going back. They take us back and we have waited up to 45 minutes in the little room, after having already waited a good hour to be taken back to begin with!!

Each visit, because it is such a strain on my old dogs hips, he has literally collapsed in the office, unable to get up, scared and shaking badly. Last week I called because I had some concerns about his health and before I booked an appointment explained to the vet tech that I will NOT wait more than 15 minutes, if it is longer I will leave. She was semi nice but explained they are very busy and I had to understand, I said no I did not, my dog is old, he just cannot stand that long and then said I would be going somewhere else. I did and the new small animal vet is wonderful No waiting, she books her appointments every half hour!!

As for cost, my philosophy is that I won't have so many animals that I can't afford for their basic care and needs and any unforeseen emergencies. If you can't afford to do the basics, maybe it is time to find a home for some of the extra. It may be a harsh way of looking at it but it has worked for me.

MistyBlue

Mar. 26, 2009, 10:27 PM

I wonder that too.... First dog (1980s)- no problems until cancer at 12. Second dog (1990s) - no problems until cancer (early, tragic, still, no major health issues otherwise). Current dog - made of glass.:lol: I suppose it could just be that there are more options out there for treatments and I was just lucky dogs 1 & 2 didn't have 3's nonstop drama (currently showing Allergies II: Springtime's Revenge), but I'm not convinced.

I'm not convinced either. I've had a *crapload* of animals over my lifetime. Not only "normal" pets but a whole lot of hand raised wildlife and also exotics. More than I can count. And all in all I can count the ones with chronic issues easily and the number is a low percentage of the animals in total. Now my first horse had issues with injuries...but injuries aren't what I'm talking about. I can understand when you have horses who try to kill themselves once every year or two. :lol: But in the last 6-7 years I can't even begin to list all the health issues I've had with pets. And none weird pets...horses cats and dogs. You'd have thought I'd have had more issues with badgers, skunks, various weasels, racoons, snakes, lizards and arachnids of all types...but nope, instead I get cats with mouth ulcers and dogs with allergies and enlarged hearts and horses with enlarged hearts and respiratory issues and colitis and stones and ...well, it's never ending.
I adore my animals and am 100% with health care for them...but honestly right now I'd be thrilled to have something healthy and freaking normal. And not costing me an arm and leg on a regular basis. I USED to have a comfie lifestyle...in the last 6-7 years my vet bills rival the national debt. :(

Blinkers On

Mar. 26, 2009, 10:56 PM

Wow. $500 for a dental is A LOT.

I pay about $190 for my dog with bad teeth to get a full dental (usually including some extracts) with antibiotics included. She's about 12 lbs. Great clinic, great vets, top care located in the midwest.

HUh??? That price made my jaw drop! Our dogs are a little different in size, but I just paid $900+ for one extraction.

I think there are good, bad and ugly in everything, including small animal vets. I left a bad clinic for the current one that I use. The old clinic made you wait, barely acknowledged the clients, answers to questions were like pulling teeth... new clinic.... the adore the animals! Personal, service for animal and human come first. It is a breath of fresh air and I recommend them highly! All answers are easy to come by. They engage my dogs with so much love and care! Everyone on staff knows one by name as she has frequent flyer points. BUT I have no complaints with service. But it took some doing to find them!

WorthTheWait95

Mar. 26, 2009, 11:07 PM

HUh??? That price made my jaw drop! Our dogs are a little different in size, but I just paid $900+ for one extraction.

I think there are good, bad and ugly in everything, including small animal vets. I left a bad clinic for the current one that I use. The old clinic made you wait, barely acknowledged the clients, answers to questions were like pulling teeth... new clinic.... the adore the animals! Personal, service for animal and human come first. It is a breath of fresh air and I recommend them highly! All answers are easy to come by. They engage my dogs with so much love and care! Everyone on staff knows one by name as she has frequent flyer points. BUT I have no complaints with service. But it took some doing to find them!

That's really expensive. I don't know what's normal that's just what my vet charges for it. She gets 2 dentals/year and that's with me brushing her teeth so I'm grateful it's affordable. It's an equine practice that also does some small animal stuff. Their equine stuff is $$$ (no more so then other equine clinics in the area but still :eek:), their small animal stuff is very, very reasonable.

Blinkers On

Mar. 26, 2009, 11:27 PM

In this instance, I was shocked. A root canal for the same tooth was under $500 more (I think). I figured pull the tooth, less expensive. It's just a tooth. Silly distracted me didn't press for an estimate pre surgery. Why exactly I don't know. Something needed to be done. She ripped a tooth in half to blood and chipped it to the gum line. If I left it, it would not have been pretty down the road. Remove the thing and no abscess or infection down the line.
Maybe the lesser of two evils?

Larksmom

Mar. 26, 2009, 11:46 PM

After being with a saintly SmAn vet for a LONG time, I have sort of broken it off. They moved from their somewhat dumpy facility to a lovely state of the art one, and prices went up accordingly. Well, when I was gainfully employed that was fine. But one morning about a year ago, my 14 yr old mixed dog was dying. I got dressed in a hurry and took them both to the vet, [so the other one would sort of know what was going on, and she was left in the car.] It was not quite 8 am so I went to the back door and explained that Auggie was dying. They let me in, and I went out to the waiting room where sainted vet was chatting with peeps with what looked like non emergency dog. Auggie was gasping and very sick. Eventually we were called in and we discussed options. Options? He was 14 and sickly. He was PTS. I held him thru the procedure, and the vet explained things to me. I paid for disposal of body as he was an 80 pound hairy beast. They did charge me an office call which I murmured about a bit. The receptionist with whom I have chatted many times about horses as she had several, was somewhat aloof. It was too much money at exactly the wrong moment, but last year was very bad for me financially. I couldn't afford to go back there till around august when the small old cat, Muffet who has breathing problems needed a spot in the -oh I can't even think of the right word but it helps her breath better. A new [be eye itch] vet came out, did n't introduce herself, ask about Muff, just, 'she needs her shots'. Next time you bring her back she will get them or we will not treat her. My cats do not leave the house, and that was just the last straw. I do not begrudge them the higher prices, everyone has to make a living, but her rudeness was off the charts. I have had these 4 cats and dogs now for close to 16 years. They are old, I hate to switch but I do not know if I really want to go back there. btw, total cost of euth and disposal for dog was $140.

trubandloki

Mar. 27, 2009, 07:45 AM

I think there are good, bad and ugly in everything, including small animal vets. I left a bad clinic for the current one that I use. The old clinic made you wait, barely acknowledged the clients, answers to questions were like pulling teeth... new clinic.... the adore the animals! Personal, service for animal and human come first. It is a breath of fresh air and I recommend them highly! All answers are easy to come by. They engage my dogs with so much love and care! Everyone on staff knows one by name as she has frequent flyer points. BUT I have no complaints with service. But it took some doing to find them!

I totally agree! I love my small animal vet. I have not priced shopped so I have no idea if she is the cheapest or the most expensive around. I know I give her lots of money because I seem to own several walking vet bills. But I find her to be great with my animals and great with me. That makes her worth the money. Two weeks ago she PTS one of my pet rats and did not charge me. She is a keeper!

I would not blame the old vet for not offering a lessor service up front. If you wanted a lower priced option why not ask for it? A simple, "wow, that is quite a bit and I am in a tough spot, is there something else we can do that will cost less" would have probably gotten you that reduced service option.

Cielo Azure

Mar. 27, 2009, 08:29 AM

After being with a saintly SmAn vet for a LONG time, I have sort of broken it off. They moved from their somewhat dumpy facility to a lovely state of the art one, and prices went up accordingly.

With a lot of animals, a good income and moving all over the country, I have seen lots of DVM offices.

Price does vary to real estate, then number of receptionists, animal technicians, plant watering service, landscaping service, size of parking lot, type of art work on the walls, fancy scales, oversized exam rooms...

I actually find there is little correlation to quality of DVM and price. Except that some DVMs go the other route. They choose to specialize in being generalists, doing it themselves, have less expensive real estate and do charge less. My current vet is very well trained, offers $75. spay/neuter because he hates the way people keep their dogs/cats around here and does not have fancy digs. He has one receptionist, who is also the tech. The vet answers the phone as much as her. He always offers the cheap way first and is constantly thinking about my budget (I "love" the guy).

What I can never understand is the correlation with vet techs, and cost. It seems like the more they hire, the more expensive the services. Shouldn't it be the other way around? I guess vet techs just show a busy practice, where they can charge their patients more (even if the work is done by someone other than the DVM).

RedMare01

Mar. 27, 2009, 09:59 AM

A topic that is close to my heart today.

I took my five month old kitten to the vet yesterday for a neuter and declaw (no flames here, we tried everything, including the Soft Claws). I don't expect to get him out of there for under $350-400.

I switched to this new vet practice last year, and I do think they are good vets and very knowledgable. However...they push extras like crazy. I've been there four times and it's already driving me insane.

The most annoying by far is the Revolution...I have two indoor only cats. I have no other pets that go outside or that come in contact with the cats. Every single freaking time I've gone to these vets they keep asking me if I want Revolution. When I say no, they are inside cats, they keep pushing, telling me that it is still possible for indoor cats to get fleas, ticks, and worms and that it is really necessary for them to have Revolution too. Multiple times per visit. UM, NO. I DO NOT WANT REVOLUTION FOR MY COMPLETLY HEALTHY ALREADY TICK, FLEA, AND WORM FREE INDOOR CATS. Wow, sorry for yelling, but that felt really good :lol:.

For the kitten's neutering, they had an entire list of extras that they recommended. I chose to have the labs done prior to surgery, laser surgery, and pain meds after. I declined the IV catheter and fluids during the surgery because I felt that was completely unnecessary (I've had a lot of cats fixed, and this is the first I've ever heard of them needing fluids during surgery).

So I get a phone call yesterday morning, saying the labwork is back on the kitten. His RBC count is a teeny, smidge high and the vet really recommends doing the fluids during surgery. Fine, okay, I let them do the fluids (vets out there: does this sound necessary?). And, they have to keep him for two days following surgery to make sure everything has gone alright.

Caitlin

WorthTheWait95

Mar. 27, 2009, 10:05 AM

Two days? For a neuter? That's pretty much the easiest surgery there is. Ours get kicked out same day. Same with spays unless there was a complication (which there never has been). That seems excessive to me (and $$...boarding animals at sm an vet clinics is usually pretty expensive).

I'm loving my vet more and more as I read these.

I took my parents dogs into their small animal vet last year when they were having some ear issues. I do their shots for them except for rabies (all of them have the three year tag and weren't due)...they kept pushing those darn vaccs on me. I must've told 8 different people 5 times each that I do them myself and they are not due but they continued to tell me I needed to get them done. I told my parents to switch to my equine vet.

arena run

Mar. 27, 2009, 10:18 AM

Well, I've got a large and small animal vet all rolled up into one very competent person. ;D

Took a couple horses to him the other day... and my inside dog. One horse needed a coggins, one needed an eye recheck, the dog had a loose tooth (thanks to my son who had tried his own hand at plaque flicking).

Coggins was $20
Recheck was $25
Doggie tooth was free

I SO love my vet. He has come out to my place and performed 'surgery' on a horribly torn shoulder... $150. He has come out to my place and performed a lameness check on a 21yo horse we had purchased as a beginner horse for my son.... $0. sylvia

Oh yes... had a mini gelded the other day $50. Usual geldings are around $80-$100. Spayings are well under $100... depending on whether dog or cat or male or female.

Cielo Azure

Mar. 27, 2009, 10:48 AM

A topic that is close to my heart today.

I switched to this new vet practice last year, and I do think they are good vets and very knowledgable. However...they push extras like crazy. I've been there four times and it's already driving me insane.

Caitlin

My son and his girlfriend have their first dog (a year old now), I feel like the DVM they go to is preying on their ignorance/naivety (sic). She pushes holistic dog foods -sold from her practice, extra vaccines, holistic medicines ( asimmune boosters for instance, cause the dog had a wart) in addition to traditional, extras for the spay (which cost a fortune), extra, extra, extra...every little thing you can think of, she has pushed as a necessary part of responsible ownership and she charges double (at least) what I pay. It makes me a little sick when I hear how much these young kids (early twenties) are paying out for stuff that is completely not necessary in this economy.

EponaRoan

Mar. 27, 2009, 11:31 AM

So I get a phone call yesterday morning, saying the labwork is back on the kitten. His RBC count is a teeny, smidge high and the vet really recommends doing the fluids during surgery. Fine, okay, I let them do the fluids (vets out there: does this sound necessary?). And, they have to keep him for two days following surgery to make sure everything has gone alright.

I can't imagine my vets recommending pre-surgery bloodwork on a youngster unless there are other issues. The only place that did that sort of a la carte pricing was the spay/neuter clinic that I used when I had a friend's dog speutered and I paid extra for post surgery pain meds.

Two days? The last dog I had neutered had retained testicles and I took him home late the same afternoon/early evening after he was awake.

For cat neuters, one of the vets at the track will lay them out and do the males on a hay bale. It's really easy surgery if surgery can be called easy.

I think your new vet practice is geared towards Helicopter Pet Parents. :D

trubandloki

Mar. 27, 2009, 11:43 AM

For the kitten's neutering, they had an entire list of extras that they recommended. I chose to have the labs done prior to surgery, laser surgery, and pain meds after. I declined the IV catheter and fluids during the surgery because I felt that was completely unnecessary (I've had a lot of cats fixed, and this is the first I've ever heard of them needing fluids during surgery).

The way I read this, in conjunction with some of the other posts is that being a vet is a lose lose deal.

You are mad that they gave you the ability to pick and choose what you paid for and someone else was mad that their vet did not offer them a cheaper option.

I have always thought that IV fluids were SOP for surgery, even something as routine as a spay.
Shrug.

BuddyRoo

Mar. 27, 2009, 11:56 AM

See, and that's the thing...

People say "My old vet never mentioned stuff like fluids during surgery" but then when new vet offers it "they're just trying to make money"

Can't win.

I can't speak for all practices...but regarding the vet tech thing...

In our practice, our goal was for the doctors to be DOCTORS. Not fiddle fart around with computers, inputting charges, filling scripts, cleaning kennels, monitoring post ops, running labs, prepping for surgery, taking temps, suture removals, doing the books, training staff, hiring staff, etc.

So we had staff to do those things. We wanted the doctors doing things no one else could do--practice medicine. Examine patients, do surgeries, etc.

It does cost more to run a practice with a larger staff...but I think overall the care is better when you can let doctors do doctor stuff.

Ghazzu

Mar. 27, 2009, 11:56 AM

So I get a phone call yesterday morning, saying the labwork is back on the kitten. His RBC count is a teeny, smidge high and the vet really recommends doing the fluids during surgery. Fine, okay, I let them do the fluids (vets out there: does this sound necessary?). And, they have to keep him for two days following surgery to make sure everything has gone alright.

Caitlin

Fluids may not be absolutely necessary, but an IV cath in an anesthetized animal? I'd want it. If there's a problem under anesthesia, you want vascular access *now*.

Two days following neutering surgery--not unless there were complications.
But...two days following a declaw--not odd at all. Bandaging and pain med considerations are the likely reason.

RedMare01

Mar. 27, 2009, 12:20 PM

The way I read this, in conjunction with some of the other posts is that being a vet is a lose lose deal.

You are mad that they gave you the ability to pick and choose what you paid for and someone else was mad that their vet did not offer them a cheaper option.

Actually, I'm not mad that they have the extras and offer them, but that they really push them and make you feel bad if you do not choose them. As if you are a bad pet parent for not doing absolutely everything that could possibly be thought of, no matter what the cost....

I also should have clarified that the two day stay was in fact for the declaw. And I'm actually happy that they're keeping him that long; it takes a lot of worry off of me.

The labs before neutering/spaying were recommended at the last vet I went to and at this new one too. I don't really think they're necessary, but the way I look at it is that they are always useful to have as a baseline in case of any future problems.

I really doubt that he needed fluids during the surgery, but on the phone the vet kept talking about all these potential problems (like kidney failure) if we did not do them, that I agreed. I'm sure that she has to say that for liablity reasons, but again there is that underlying context that if you don't let them do them, if something goes wrong it's your fault.

Caitlin

Blinkers On

Mar. 27, 2009, 01:55 PM

The extras don't bother me that much. I say no to alot of stuff these days as the sheer weight of the dog's medical bills have piled up in a hurry! So I am tightening that up a bunch! The bills were unavoidable at the time. Now both dogs are wrapped in bubble wrap lest more injuries occur!

Trakehner

Mar. 27, 2009, 02:00 PM

There are some wonderful classes listed in "Veterinary Practice"...basically, how to prey on your customers and earn more money.

I have no problem with vets making money, I think it's a good thing....BUT there are a lot of scum-sucking leeches out there nowadays who prey on owners with blackmail techniques..."Isn't Fluffy just like one of the family? Why, isn't she worth $2/day to keep her alive and feeling better?"..."You mean, she's not worth a cup of cheap Starbucks coffee! That's so sad, and won't the children be hurt too!"

My wife refused to take our dog to her vets..nothing but high-pressure to buy heart worm preventatives with this and that lab tests...they did everything but call her names for not doing it. They tried some of this crap with me too...well, that wasn't pleasant for them at all it turns out. Vaccine charges are obscene and unsupportable, same with drugs (and yes, you do have to write me a prescription for vet meds in VA).

A cat being neutered absolutely doesn't need an IV. A shot of Ketaset & atropine, pluck their kitty balls, make a simple slit, pull/snip/toss and tie off the vas-deferens with themselves and shoot a could of sulfa in their now empty sack...takes 4 minutes. No lab tests, no fluids...and exactly what fluid did they lose needing to be replaced in all of this?

My old dog had "old dog bumps" my wife hated the look of...no problem, brought her there, got em' removed and the vet said, "I dont like the look of those, I'd like to send em' off to pathology"..."Sure, go ahead, but I'm not paying for it...no matter what you'd find, she's not getting treated to cancer". Seems they weren't near as interesting after that.

trubandloki

Mar. 27, 2009, 02:10 PM

My wife refused to take our dog to her vets..nothing but high-pressure to buy heart worm preventatives

I guess I like spending money because I can not imagine not having my dog on a heart worm preventative. I have seen dogs with heart worm, not pretty. And heck, it kills all kinds of other worms too, so I do not have to worry when they have a manure snack or find something dead when I am not looking.

If you do not like your vet then why not pick another one? It seems silly to not move on to one you can have a better relationship with.

MistyBlue

Mar. 27, 2009, 02:15 PM

fourh mom...those are some really decent prices. Hold onto that vet with both hands. :yes:
As said...I don't knock the fees my SAV charges. They have 3 really good vets with excellent bed/table/floor side skills and they discuss things well with the human owners too. The techs are all very nice and very good...they always call and do follow up to make sure things are okay at home, etc.
The costs are reasonable considering they have at least 4 techs that I've seen. I just REALLY wish my menagerie would stop needing to visit them so often. I do wish there were a Frequent Flier type discount. :lol: I have to track all my expenses...including vet bills. In the last 3 years my vets bills would have paid off my newer F250 AND my newer TC33DA New Holland tractor. Dude...that hurts. If I have another 5 years of similar vet bills...I could pay off my mortgage. At what point does an owner say, "Enough!" I'll probably never know...nothing has ever been a cut-and-dried health issue where an owner can make that tough decision.
One really neat thing about my SAV practice is one of the vets we see was one of the Lost Boys from Sudan. And he's absolutely fantastic with animals...even my cat allowed him to live through her last exam and she's hell on vets usually. :winkgrin: We've had some great conversations.

Blinkers On

Mar. 27, 2009, 02:23 PM

I guess I like spending money because I can not imagine not having my dog on a heart worm preventative. I have seen dogs with heart worm, not pretty. And heck, it kills all kinds of other worms too, so I do not have to worry when they have a manure snack or find something dead when I am not looking.

If you do not like your vet then why not pick another one? It seems silly to not move on to one you can have a better relationship with.

Oh I agree. Though I believe I live in the heartworm capital of the world. I want live dogs for a long long time!

Misty! A frequent fly-er thing or a "coffee card" type thing. Come in 5x and the 6th visit is free!!!

bugsynskeeter

Mar. 27, 2009, 02:24 PM

I guess I found a good small animal vet. After working for a higher priced clinic for a couple of years, I know how much things cost and am not willing to pay out the wazoo for things I know cost $5 to purchase. I took my 6 y/o JRT/ACD female to a new vet today cause she had been having diarrhea on and off for the past few days. I was a new client and got an appointment the day after I called.

Was seen within 20 minutes, vet was very nice. Didn't preform any unnecessary tests (I'm a vet tech too, at an equine hospital, so I do have an idea of what is necessary and what isn't). After an exam, fecal sample, fluids, and medication, I made it out of there for $65. And if she still has problems after the medication, I can bring her back in for a follow-up. The cost of the follow-up? Free.

I knew she was a good vet when she came in on a Sunday, her day off, to euthanize my friend's dog when he went down hill quickly. I would go back to her in a heartbeat.

trubandloki

Mar. 27, 2009, 02:39 PM

Misty! A frequent fly-er thing or a "coffee card" type thing. Come in 5x and the 6th visit is free!!!

Oh, I like that idea!!!

I so need one of those programs.

MistyBlue

Mar. 27, 2009, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Blinkers On http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3979256#post3979256)

Misty! A frequent fly-er thing or a "coffee card" type thing. Come in 5x and the 6th visit is free!!!

Oh, I like that idea!!!

I so need one of those programs.

:yes: Yup...count me in too! That would be some relief. :)

And can we get info to the pet drug companies? Because it seriously NEEDS to be illegal to produce any feline meds in pill form. That's just animal and owner cruelty. Seriously...why not just prescribe this instead:
"For your cat to heal you need to buy a tank full of piranhas and then cut your finger and stick your hand in the piranha tank for 5 minutes 3 times per day."
I mean really...I've done wildlife rehab and it's actually easier to get a pill in a freaking badger than it is to get one in a cat! That's just wrong. :no:
My cat of the ropey thick drooling tongue ulcer/abcess was thankfully prescribed oral liquid meds. I already had my patented "Don't even give me cat pills" glare ready when they handed me one dropper med and one oral syringe med. Phew! Not that prying open the mouth of a cat who's mouth hurts like hell right now and who's face is covered in a thick viscous ropey drool that smells like hell's septic tank is much fun but at least it's not my entire finger sticking in there. Afterwards I just need one of those Silkwood type showers.

vacation1

Mar. 27, 2009, 07:26 PM

JRT/ACD

I'm having a hard time imagining that mix:) Must be feisty.

grayarabpony

Mar. 27, 2009, 07:52 PM

And can we get info to the pet drug companies? Because it seriously NEEDS to be illegal to produce any feline meds in pill form. That's just animal and owner cruelty.

Isn't that the truth?!

boringjen

Mar. 27, 2009, 07:55 PM

I've got to plug pet insurance. I use PetCare, and it has more than paid for itself. There is no "reasonable and customary" with their plans, which comes in handy for those of us in high cost-of-living areas. There are others (like VPI) that also get good reviews, but PetCare's plans work best for me. I pay just under $30/mo for two cats (one is 10yo), and it's really nice to be able to walk into the vet's office and not worry about how much it's all going to cost.

My PetCare insurance has more than paid for itself (several times over). Given my younger cat's obsession with eating inedible objects, I wouldn't be without the insurance (she already had one exploratory surgery and 4-day emergency/referral hospital stay, to the tune of $4,000). Though, I must agree with those who are asking where all the healthy pets are. My last two cats lived to be 21 and 22, respectively, and they never got sick or injured. Between my current two, we've got/had asthma, IBD, mystery viruses, the URI to end all URIs, foreign bodies, raw and grain-free diets, and enough prednisolone, antibiotics, and buprenorphine to make the world go round.

ETA: Re: pills & cats....I've got one who comes running when you shake the pill bottle, and "pilling" means dropping a pill on the floor where she happily scarfs it down. This would be pleasant if she didn't do the same thing with razor blades, coins, jewelry, rubber bands, all manner of small electronic accessories, etc.

TXPiaffe

Mar. 27, 2009, 08:20 PM

Fluids may not be absolutely necessary, but an IV cath in an anesthetized animal? I'd want it. If there's a problem under anesthesia, you want vascular access *now*.

Two days following neutering surgery--not unless there were complications.
But...two days following a declaw--not odd at all. Bandaging and pain med considerations are the likely reason.

Have any of you ever seen a declaw surgery? It is not pretty and the cats are in pain. Two days after a declaw is pretty standard and the vet I worked for would sometimes keep them 3 if they bled alot. We always did pre surg BW & EKG, it was included in our surgery prices as well as was pain relief and antibiotics if needed. Dentals would run aprox 200 without x-rays. Yearly vaccs including HW test, physical, shots and deworm 120ish... I loved the vet I worked for and he helped alot of people out when he could. The good ones are out there.

TXPiaffe

Mar. 27, 2009, 08:22 PM

oh and on giving a cat a pill..see if you can get a "piller" it works wonders! Well, on most cats :D

Ghazzu

Mar. 27, 2009, 09:02 PM

Have any of you ever seen a declaw surgery? It is not pretty and the cats are in pain. Two days after a declaw is pretty standard and the vet I worked for would sometimes keep them 3 if they bled alot. We always did pre surg BW & EKG, it was included in our surgery prices as well as was pain relief and antibiotics if needed. Dentals would run aprox 200 without x-rays. Yearly vaccs including HW test, physical, shots and deworm 120ish... I loved the vet I worked for and he helped alot of people out when he could. The good ones are out there.

Truly. While it may have been "necessary" (and, yes, it may be anthropomorphizing, but I expect a cat would prefer a declaw to a euthanasia) to declaw this cat, friends, this is not a minor procedure. Think of how much pain might be involved in transecting the distal phalanx of one of your fingers, nevermind *all* of them. Lasers or no, this is a pretty painful surgery.

What I find interesting about the responses to this thread is that many of them seem to be of the "my vet charges very little for X--I love my vet".
As a veterinarian, that's depressing.
Really--why bother with continuing ed and new equipment, RVT's instead of the local high school kid who needs a job, etc. if client "loyalty" is based on price?

It implies that even if the care and expertise remained the same, you'd care less for the vet if the fees were higher. I dunno, maybe you don't mean it that way, but that's how it comes across.

Blinkers On

Mar. 27, 2009, 09:20 PM

Oh, I like that idea!!!

I so need one of those programs.

You and me three! I beg some forwardly thinking vet to embrace this... with my luck one of the PITA's will be in surgery in weeks!

ddmarie

Mar. 27, 2009, 09:41 PM

I am a Veterinary technician and work in a small animal practice. The overhead to keep an animal hospital open is very costly. The hospital I work for needs to bring in 2,500.00 a day just to cover expences! Anything over that is income for the owner. Paying for the insurance, technicians, lab equipment, hospital supplies etc. costs a lot. Horse vets do not have the overhead. Most work alone and drive their work trucks which is their "hospital". Clients complain every day about the costs. We all need to make a living. I agree that picking tartar off the teeth is not a dental cleaning. When the cat or dog is under anesthesia is the only way to do a complete cleaning. Scaling under the gumline can not be done properly while the cat or dog is awake! There is pet insurance available. I do understand where you are coming from but maybe the lower cost vet doesn't have licenced techs working for him so he does not have to pay that much for his help. Hence he can charge less since his overhead is not that much. Working in different practices I have seen first hand that you get what you pay for.

grayarabpony

Mar. 27, 2009, 09:42 PM

ETA: Re: pills & cats....I've got one who comes running when you shake the pill bottle, and "pilling" means dropping a pill on the floor where she happily scarfs it down. This would be pleasant if she didn't do the same thing with razor blades, coins, jewelry, rubber bands, all manner of small electronic accessories, etc.

I bet she doesn't do that with Drontal..

Cielo Azure

Mar. 27, 2009, 09:46 PM

Truly. While it may have been "necessary" (and, yes, it may be anthropomorphizing, but I expect a cat would prefer a declaw to a euthanasia) to declaw this cat, friends, this is not a minor procedure. Think of how much pain might be involved in transecting the distal phalanx of one of your fingers, nevermind *all* of them. Lasers or no, this is a pretty painful surgery.

What I find interesting about the responses to this thread is that many of them seem to be of the "my vet charges very little for X--I love my vet".
As a veterinarian, that's depressing.
Really--why bother with continuing ed and new equipment, RVT's instead of the local high school kid who needs a job, etc. if client "loyalty" is based on price?

It implies that even if the care and expertise remained the same, you'd care less for the vet if the fees were higher. I dunno, maybe you don't mean it that way, but that's how it comes across.

I feel your pain. But in most instances, the DVMs doing the work are NOT the owner's of these large practices (with the high value real estate, and all the trimmings, and lots of staff; the staff are also pushed to push "stuff" on us consumers (-and I bet they don't like it either)). When I used to waitress way back when as a young person and got the pep talks by management to push wine, beer and deserts, I didn't like it one bit either (even though it was explained to me, the the higher the bill, the larger the tips). But as I see it (and the articles in the vet journals back this up, the people making the "real" money (and I mean real money) are the true owners of these large practices, not the staff (including DVMs).

If has been a while since I have read the stats but isn't it true that the owner's of the large veterinary practices do very, very well. The staff, including DVMs...really don't do so well. Given the amount of schooling, they barely make an honest wage. I know that. But someone is profiting and that someone is usually the founder of the practice.

Of course, we all want good care for our pets. My pets get way better care than myself or my family (which is really bizarre), considering who I am married to... But I resent getting gouged after the fact, getting "extras" pushed on me and knowing that someone is getting very wealthy by abusing my worries and heartache when my pets get sick. I think that is why we all react so.

Yes, I do seek out the private, single owner practice and I do know good service and am thankful when I find it. Do not think that because we are looking for good value, that we don't appreciate it when we find it -espcially since it MUST to be coupled to a competent veterinarian.

But frankly, not all of us want new cancer drugs for our cats, thyroid tests for our ancient dogs or a longer life for our suffering seniors. Frankly, I as age and when I am closer to death, I am not sure I want that stuff for myself. For a veterinarian or a physician, I think that would be hard to hear.

Finally, yes, client loyalty is based on price but only partly. I just did my receipts for last year, I spent around 10,000 on vet bills in 2008. If my bill is 25% higher, that comes to over $2,500. I know that I spent at least $2,000. (20%+) more because I go to Horner and Nash in GA, because I trust them as equine vets. So, I do pay more for good medicine but I have my limits. It is a balance.

Blinkers On

Mar. 27, 2009, 10:01 PM

Penthilisea

Mar. 27, 2009, 10:17 PM

Hmm on the point of vet techs and overhead...

Pricey Pet Vet had techs and three receptionists on at one time, and lovely, pretty facilities and they also sold pet food and so on and so forth. But the exam room was miniscule, and appointments never started on time. Waiting area full of prints of african animals.

New, less expensive vet? No vet tech that I have seen. 1 receptionist and the vet. Period. One exam room, and one waiting room. Appointments run on time. They sell frontline. The office is neither new nor airy. But it is clean (not even a WHIFF of urine!) and has a nicely painted mural of local scenes.

So what am I missing, really? I have NO PROBLEM with vets making a living. But treat me as a savvy consumer, not a dollar sign. Pricey Pet Vet KNEW my situation and never discussed options to reduce the cost of the dental surgery etc.

For my equine vet, they know the score. They discuss options, will talk to me on the phone and have no problem with me paying over time. I use one of the top vet clinics in the nation IMHO (primary vet did work for USET this year) and I know I pay for that. But again, because the vets treat me responsibly, I know what I am paying for and I consider it fair.

Ghazzu

Mar. 27, 2009, 10:33 PM

Working in different practices I have seen first hand that you get what you pay for.

Ayuh. Like they say, cheap, fast, good. Pick any two.

Parker_Rider

Mar. 27, 2009, 11:33 PM

Neither I nor my parents have issues paying for our pet's care. If it's expensive, well then, that's our responsibility as pet owners. It's something we've always understood as part of having a pet: sometimes, as much as it may suck, the procedures cost a lot. However, along with that pricetag, I expect my vet to care about my animal and the animals entrusted in their care. Yes, it sucks paying an $80 office fee to the emergency vet, but knowing that they love my mom's ridiculous, neurotic beast of a mini-aussie and do all they can to make sure he's calm and comfortable in their care is worth it (especially when he requires 3 staples in his head!). When I pay the $40 office fee for our regular vet and I have to question whether they really care about my dog or really care about that office fee is what irks me. Do I want a reasonable price, yes. Everyone does. However, what trumps the price tag is being treated with respect and knowing that the care of my animal is paramount over that price tag or the cost of "extras." And sometimes, you have to wonder. I know there are great vets out there (my brother's ex-gf just recommended her "fantastic" vet to me) but some vets are just abhorrent in their quest for reaching that profit margin. I understand business and covering overhead. I also understand that customer service and keeping your people happy is the easiest way to reach that overhead cost and exceed it - not pushing and pushing extras on people for the sake of extras. It's not a double standard, it's just plain business sense.

bugsynskeeter

Mar. 28, 2009, 01:03 AM

I'm having a hard time imagining that mix:) Must be feisty.

Actually she's a doll...and pretty laid back. She's just as happy to curl up on the couch as go to the barn. http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v62/37/52/51801689/n51801689_30993384_8993.jpg

WaningMoon

Mar. 28, 2009, 06:32 AM

TikiSoo

Mar. 28, 2009, 07:57 AM

My horse was just seen by the vet for yearly shots & general check up. The vet doesn't really spend much time with her, but she's young and healthy so I'm ok with it. He still answers all my questions and takes a look at anything I'm concerned about. Rabies, Coggins, EW, West Nile & farm call came to $65.

My dog vet is sending postcards (every 2 weeks) to "remind" me to bring her in for a yearly exam, not due for another 2 months. Her shots are good for at least 2 years, so it's nothing more than a general exam. She's also young and healthy, except for hot spots in summer which all vet's "suggestions" haven't helped one whit, if anything it's gotten worse. I'll save the $75 for next year's office "exam" when we need shots which will come to over $100.

I just tell people I lost my job and they usually leave me alone. But I'm surprised at the agressive "reminders" the dog vet seems to need to drum up really unnecessary business.

MistyBlue

Mar. 28, 2009, 08:10 AM

Wow, that's it? It cost more to feed and bed a barn of 20 in CA. How odd.
BUT good business is certainly costly!
Whoa...*that's* expensive! That works out to about $125 per horse per day! Board would have to be $3750 or so per month just to cover the basics. :eek:

magnolia73

Mar. 28, 2009, 08:28 AM

I think technology is making it so expensive. 10 years ago, they probably didn't do MRI's and all these surgeries. Now they do. Vet care is like human people care. We pay more, they can do more.

When my cat broke her pelvis, the vet was very insistent on seeing a "Orthopedic Specialist" for the cat. Really? She said surgery would allow her to heal better. I nixed the idea- I do have a limit on vet care. Pelvic surgery exceeds my limit on a cat. Love my cat, but love not being bankrupt more. Anyhow, my parents had a cat - a 20 year old cat- that recovered from a fractured pelvis on her own. So did my cat. Ina bout 2 weeks she was moving easily. About 6 weeks later, I'll call her healed nicely.

I have a cat with a cataract. He can have eye surgery... or cloudy vision. He'll have cloudy vision. He's still happy and gets around.

I think there is a balance vets need to walk- between offering the best possible treatment, but understanding not everyone can afford the best. Many cats and dogs live good lives without $500 teeth cleanings. Ever. Offering alternatives would be nice.

SmokenMirrors

Mar. 28, 2009, 08:50 AM

When I took my 13 year old geriatric Malamute/Shepherd Rocky to the new vet last Wednesday she frowned at me when I said neither dog is on heartwork preventative. Why? They are mostly indoor dogs and for him, it made him sick every time I gave him one. The last three visits in the spring they came up negative and I will continue to have them checked every spring as a precaution, same with having them get a fecal, they don't go anywhere where they could pick up worms. It's more of how well do you know your pet. But, for this new vet to check him out, do all the blood work, urine sample, thyroid, prostate check, glaucoma, fecal, etc. it came up to a total of $275.

Some people are willing to pay for expensive surgeries or procedures, others have a cap they can pay. For us, as my husband is well paid and in a good job, would really depend on what the injury is and what is the outcome. When my Percheron mare went through our fence two years ago when she stepped on a nest of ground hornets, we had 4 days at the vets office, I.V. fluids for 3 days, treating the cut and abrasions on her chest, knees and chin, antibiotics, antihistamines, treated for colic, special gel type fillers in her front hooves for "possible" rotation of her coffin bone (which never did happen thank goodness) and a few little things. The total bill for that was $1300. A bit of that was because the vet used HIS farrier, wouldn't let me bring her home for mine to shoe and treat the front hooves.

We will always give the best care possible to our pets. I hope to never be in the position to have to make that heartbreaking decision of putting them to sleep instead of treating them. As for the cost of PTS, that is part of pet ownership, how cheap do you want it to be?!

Blinkers On

Mar. 28, 2009, 09:30 AM

Whoa...*that's* expensive! That works out to about $125 per horse per day! Board would have to be $3750 or so per month just to cover the basics. :eek:

Oh boy ya! I know several people who have gone off the "reservation" in search of cheaper and quality! A much needed break!

idtogo

Mar. 28, 2009, 09:33 AM

As a small animal vet , these posts both frustrate me and make me a little sad

The way I see it is that it is the vet's job to offer you what is best and most appropriate for your individual pet. That may include wellness blood on a senior, or a dental cleaning or the inclusion or elimination of certain vaccines, whatever..... The vet should do this in a nonjudgmental fashion and be sure the owner is educated in the WHY of the recommendation so that he/she can understand the value of it.

We go to school for 8 or more years and often have years of experience on which to gauge our recommendations. Possibly some vets lack the skill to impart that knowledge on to the pet owner , I don't know where the disconnect is....

A client may not believe in leptospirosis or heartworm disease or the effects of a painful, bacterial loaded mouth but the vet has seen and treated the advanced HW positive dog, has seen the congestive heart failure in a poodle secondary to chronic bacterial shedding associated with dental disease etc.... So we will just continue to offer the best service to clients.

It is your job as the pet owner to voice any concerns and accept or decline the services. It is not the vet's job to try to decide what any individual wants to do or spend for their pet .

I have some clients that only want rabies every 3 years and others that want exams every 6 months with yearly wellness workups. I've had owners want to euthanize puppies because of broken legs ( 2 of my techs now have very nice dogs...) and other owners that want the best orthopedic referal....

Just last week with wellness workups on seemingly healthy seniors, our practice discovered several cats with early renal disease that with diet changes and monitoring may enable the cats to live several more healthy years vs coming back 6 months down the road in full blown renal failure, we uncovered one dog with a splenic mass-- saving the owner's the heartbreak of an unexpected catastrophic bleed, and a dog with lymphoblastic leukemia. I can assure you all these people were grateful that wellness screening was offered. I can also tell you that we have canceled spay/neuters on pets with anemias, familial renal and liver disease etc....

Veterinary medicine is more advanced now, pets are more a part of a person's family and the days of "can't you just give him a shot doc" are gone. A new grad starts at 50-60000 and often has a debt load of 200,000+. Vets are not in it for the money and excellent care costs money. It's just the way it is. In my practice we strive to offer the best and most appropriat options first and listen to the client and then work within the budget given to us, not the budget we assume the client has....

In The Gate

Mar. 28, 2009, 10:00 AM

Thank you, idtogo for an excellent post. I'm a 3rd year veterinary student and these posts make me very sad as well. I understand that everyone has different financial limitations for their pets, but it is still my job to offer you the best care available for your pet. As a vet, there will be no way for me to know which client wants that care and which does not, therefore it is my responsibility to offer the best option along with other alternatives to everyone.

If I think your pet will be best served by a referral -- I would ALWAYS offer it.; it would be irresponsible not to give you the option to take your pet to a specialist if I thought they would benefit from being seen.

Alice

Mar. 28, 2009, 01:42 PM

Ghazzu

Mar. 28, 2009, 02:20 PM

I wonder if it would help if vets would articulate not only the "why" of procedures, but also offer alternatives?

I've heard a lot of people say how thankful they were that they were given some options. So instead of choosing/being unable to treat anything, perhaps they could cover some aspects.

Something along the lines of: "In an ideal world, we would do x,y and z. This would give us information regarding...and offers the best chance of a good result. Plan B would be x and z, which would hopefully address one problem but not give us info about..... And if finances are severly limited, we could at least try z."

.

That works *sometimes*, but often Plan B (the less expensive option) really is inferior in terms of the likelihood of a successful outcome, but many folks will want to try that first.
Then, when it doesn''t work, they opt to go back to Plan A, and end up spending more, and/or have less chance of curing the problem because it's gotten worse.

Then when the animal dies or is permanently affected by whatever the disease/trauma was, the vet gets blamed any road--"Well, if we'd really understood that Plan A was that much better, we'd have done it."

There's a current discussion in this vein on an equine veterinary list I'm on--sick horse, directive from owner to spend little money, so severely limited in diagnostic workup and the DVM has to resort to trying to find a cheap shotgun treatment, as well. Might get lucky, or then again, might end up with a dead horse and a smaller bill, but then have to pay for the backhoe or the deadstock removal service.

And there are some things that shouldn't be compromised--IMHO, an IV cath for anesthetized animals is one of those. If I did SA surgery, post op pain meds would be another. A fresh surgery pack for every surgery. In some cases, things that might be considered "extras", if dispensed with, could land the DVM in trouble if there were a problem and the owners filed a complaint with the state board. The baseline for acceptable standard of care has gone up dramatically.

Think about it--if you're going in for surgery, does the surgeon come in and give you an a la carte menu for things like catheters, fluids, medication? Good medicine is good medicine, in many instances. Starting with a cheaper antibiotic is one thing, putting the patient at higher risk is another.

MistyBlue

Mar. 28, 2009, 02:39 PM

Agree with Ghazzu on this...especially for surgery/etc. If I am going to go the surgery route for an animal...I want the Gold Star Preferred Whole Shebang service. I figure it this way: Say the surgery for a dog is $3000...for the IV during and proper post op pain meds comes to another $250-$400 or so. Well heck, I'm paying $3000 and I'm not going to even think twice over $400 more so that the surgery goes as well as it can and the trauma is reduced as much as possible for the animal. My late mal had TPLA surgery, wasn't cheap and it cost us a bit more due to his size/breed. Not the best candidate for anesthesia...had to have the pre-op test too. (he came through that surgery fine...the one to repair a badly broken foot killed him though...anesthesia :no: but not the vet's fault...it happens with large dogs/mals) I didn't end up paying the extra 24 hours or so for him to stay and be monitored after surgery...they called me to come get him ASAP first thing am after surgery (he had it 6 pm the night before, they called 5 minutes after they came in the next morning at 6 am) Apparently my boy was breaking his cage door and threatening the hell out of everyone in there. :eek: But...the extra charges were worth it for a healthy boy...he came home with pain patches too. (and another $80 for a new cage door, LOL)
I will say I have issues with treatments being pushed...but not for $$$ purposes. I've seen horrendous decisions made by small animal vets and vet techs from the same offices when an animal comes in with something that's 80% or higher of being terminal and the owner decides to go the euth route and some tech will cry over it and want the animal signed over to them so they can take over care. In those cases...to me....it's a case of prolonging pain and suffering with a tiny chance of any decent outcome or quality of life for someone else's misplaced emotions.
I'm also not thrilled when vets pass judgement on owners for serious medical issues if the owner wants to euthanize. The owner knows the animal better....if the owner says the animal will not have a decent quality of life post op/post treatment or if the owner says the animal does not handle stress/pain well...the vet should *graciously* accept that the owner knows what they're talking about and not push the owner or visibly judge them for that. Small or large animals. I have to admit to still being flabbergasted when I had a newer young large animal vet literally freak out and sob almost incoherently when I had questioned euthanizing an incorrrectly diagnosed extremely painful very deppressed horse. Never ever ever should the words, "But it's not FAIR to the horse! If I had cancer *I* would still want to be kept alive and in pain instead of dead! How could you CONSIDER killing him???" should never ever come out of any vets mouth ever. For any reason. The state of many of the newly graduated large animal vets is sad. :no:

Ride and Run

Mar. 28, 2009, 02:45 PM

I agree that having options is important. I switched small animal vets when I asked my former vet if my 16 year old dog really needed a rabies shot. He told me it was the law. Well, it was the law in the city he lived in, but it was not the county's law and he knew that. I did not live in the city limits and he knew that (he was at my place at the time). I still think of him as a good vet, but I don't trust him to give me all the options (and no, this wasn't the only such incident).

My current small animal vet is great. I know that he will give me all the treatment options, tell me the pros and cons of each, and also give me his educated opinion. He is a good vet, he is good with me and my dogs, and I trust him - those are the important things. I travel twice as far to get to my current vet as I did my former vet and I don't mind doing so.

Blinkers On

Mar. 28, 2009, 03:01 PM

The one thing I might complain about is not the services recommended. We all have a voice and the option to not want the xtra services. Fair enough. My vet on the oral surgery had a high and a low estimate when I brought the dog in. My jaw dropped at both but the high was outrageous! I wanted the bare minimum. The tooth out, period!
My "complaint" would be the mark up on meds. Both small and large animal. I understand it is a business and money does need to come in, BUT gouging the client on meds doesn't really encourage clients to return when the finances are tight. Like now..
My dogs are family, so I have gone to outrageous lengths to keep them sound and healthy in the last 5 months or so. And I am so pleased with my clinic that I refer everyone I speak with that has a doggie "issue." And I do believe that Vets should take note of the good clients, the ones that pay, the one's that look after their pets appropriately, the one's who refer new clients, and reward them some. That would encourage me the "happy client" to continue to refer and maintain a high quality of health for my pets.

Just my two cents as a good client.

grayarabpony

Mar. 28, 2009, 03:04 PM

Here is an example of a vet pushing expensive unnecessary treatment:

About 10 years ago my JRT developed some discharge from one nostril. I figured she had gotten poked when she was in the hay shelter, by either a piece of timothy hay or the wire that bound it. We gave it a week to see if it would clear up by itself, then I took her into the vet. The dog is clear-eyed, bright, no fever, nothing amiss except for the discharge. This is a dog who, in spite of living 20 years, would act like she was dying if there was something wrong.

So vet x-rays her head and then recommends getting a $2K cat scan, in case there's a foreign body stuck in there. I smile and nod and think "No way." She would have been clawing at her face like crazy if there'd been something stuck in there. My husband's a family doc, and he told me that although he did not know if this applied to dogs, when a kid comes in with something stuck up his nose, the whole room stinks. My husband asked me if the vet had cultured the discharge. Of course not.

So hubby gets discharge cultured and puts dog on appropriate antibiotics. We pay for that too. ;) But it's a lot less than 2K. In the meantime, the vet calls me and tries to pressure me into getting the cat scan. He wasn't going to make any money on the cat scan either, as the clinic did not have the equipment. In a week, when the discharge was cleared up, I called the vet to let him know what happened. I was very nice about it but he wasn't. He was a total snot. Needless to say, I won't be using him again.

Now, I am a person who will spare no expense if I think the animal has a chance at a good quality of life after treatment. And I really don't appreciate a vet trying to guilt-trip me into doing something that doesn't make sense to me.

vacation1

Mar. 28, 2009, 03:40 PM

Actually she's a doll...and pretty laid back. She's just as happy to curl up on the couch as go to the barn. http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v62/37/52/51801689/n51801689_30993384_8993.jpg

She's adorable!

The way I see it is that it is the vet's job to offer you what is best and most appropriate for your individual pet. That may include wellness blood on a senior, or a dental cleaning or the inclusion or elimination of certain vaccines, whatever..... The vet should do this in a nonjudgmental fashion and be sure the owner is educated in the WHY of the recommendation so that he/she can understand the value of it. We go to school for 8 or more years and often have years of experience on which to gauge our recommendations. Possibly some vets lack the skill to impart that knowledge on to the pet owner , I don't know where the disconnect is....

I agree. I feel bad for people whose vets have truly crossed the line between advocating what they believe is best for the animal, and salesmanship for the clinic or forcing their own emotional agenda on their client, but a lot of the anger seems to be that the vets even suggest services that the owner doesn't want to use. That's just unreasonable. We're paying them for their medical knowledge, not so that they can try to guess what our financial/emotional/philosophic position is on how far to take an ailing cat or an aged dog.

AiryFairy

Mar. 28, 2009, 04:14 PM

When I took my 13 year old geriatric Malamute/Shepherd Rocky to the new vet last Wednesday she frowned at me when I said neither dog is on heartwork preventative. Why? They are mostly indoor dogs and for him, it made him sick every time I gave him one. The last three visits in the spring they came up negative and I will continue to have them checked every spring as a precaution, same with having them get a fecal, they don't go anywhere where they could pick up worms. It's more of how well do you know your pet.

How well you know your pet has nothing to do with anything, you cannot completely control the environment of a 'mostly indoor dog'. Heartworm is brutal, and preventable, and in the big scope of things, like considering the cost of treating heartworm, preventatives are cheap. There is more than one brand, try another one if one made him sick. "Mostly indoor dogs" is kind of ridiculous, are you saying you never get mosquitoes in your house? They're unlikely to get bitten outside? How do you know? They can get worms any way, encountering a dead animal, cat turds, (one of my dog's guilty pleasures when we had cats), fleas on animals, etc. There are a lot of expensive advanced treatments available today which people can't afford, but preventing simple things like heartworm and parasites is a no-brainer, IMO.

SmokenMirrors

Mar. 28, 2009, 04:55 PM

How well you know your pet has nothing to do with anything, you cannot completely control the environment of a 'mostly indoor dog'. Heartworm is brutal, and preventable, and in the big scope of things, like considering the cost of treating heartworm, preventatives are cheap. There is more than one brand, try another one if one made him sick. "Mostly indoor dogs" is kind of ridiculous, are you saying you never get mosquitoes in your house? They're unlikely to get bitten outside? How do you know? They can get worms any way, encountering a dead animal, cat turds, (one of my dog's guilty pleasures when we had cats), fleas on animals, etc. There are a lot of expensive advanced treatments available today which people can't afford, but preventing simple things like heartworm and parasites is a no-brainer, IMO.

He is tested EVERY year, has come up positive in the past 2 years since I stopped giving him anything, and with his age and medical conditions, that would be the least of his problems. I never said I don't get mosquitoes in my home, just that I know he doesn't have heart worms. And I am very well aware of what heart worms do, I was a vet tech and have worked around animals all my life. My main goal now is to keep him as comfortable and as pain free for however long I have him instead of shoving other caustic or unneeded medication or pills down his throat.

So instead of lecturing me, or until you know how my animals are treated and the time and money I have spent on them, why not lecture someone who really needs it.

Alagirl

Mar. 28, 2009, 05:10 PM

I kinda LOL'd reading the thread, because it brought up so many memories.

Read James Harriod's memoirs as a country vet, and you come across the same thing: Tricky Woo paid huge amounts while others got a freeby. Same was portayed in a German TV series over 20 years ago. :lol:

Rule of thumb, the nicer the place the higher the price. My old vet was in kind of a dumpy old smelly building, but dirt cheap, and they always took good care of my pets. My new vet, well, the building is kinda old and dumpy and smelly and I was a but shocked when the bill for spaying and shots for cat #1 came to 200 bucks (but she was in heat, wonder if that matters). But it's still a lot cheaper than other vets and the guy is very nice.

I want to be educated by my vets but not in a condescending manner. I know I don't know all there is to know, but I am not a total dunce either.

magnolia73

Mar. 28, 2009, 05:17 PM

Yeah, refer me to the Orthopedic surgeon. But... maybe have a ballpark of what the surgery would cost. Maybe tell me some good reasons to do it. Tell me what happens if you don't do it. Not knowing anything- given that my cat was up and about very quickly, the anethesia for surgery, plus opening her up was probably a bigger risk than letting her rest.

People don't have unlimited money. People can't afford their own treatment. If the only people "allowed" to take on pets were those who could afford vet care at all levels, boy, we'd euthanize a lot of healthy animals.

And I don't think all vets do it for money, at all. And it must be hard to see patients with owners that don't have $500 a year for dental cleanings or a couple thousand for surgery.

magnolia73

Mar. 28, 2009, 05:22 PM

the vets even suggest services that the owner doesn't want to use.

After I nixed the specialist, they basically handed me my cat and looked at me like I was an ass. And don't think I wasn't teary about money at the time. Never followed up on her, didn't even give me any ideas on caring for her. Just a snotty vet tech telling me to watch for poop and pee. Most of the help I got came from people online with info on everything from how long to keep her confined to how to feed her to prevent constipation.

seeuatx

Mar. 28, 2009, 05:26 PM

There was a vaccine clinic in my area today. I have to say I have never been so grateful in my life. Our JRT in the last six months has rung up a bill of about $1500 due to a hospitalization with HGE and now seizure issues, as well as his normal allergy issues (lepto vacc). Can you say high maintenance?

Sad thing is that my Dal who is a feed and go type has been on the back burner because we just could not afford another $200 vet bill for her vaccines. I took her to the clinic, got her the Rabies and DHLPP for a grand total of $36. When finances clear up in a few months I will take her to our vet for her full exam, but for now I am no longer breaking the law (overdue for rabies) and safe from distemper.

What stuck out to me is that when I got to the clinic the line was out the door and around the corner. These were not ill-cared for animals either. Each was fat and happy... but for whatever reason they needed the break. The check-in lady said it was the largest turn-out she had ever seen and she worked for that group for 3 years. It's a sign of the times, I guess.

Mara

Mar. 28, 2009, 11:25 PM

HUh??? That price made my jaw drop! Our dogs are a little different in size, but I just paid $900+ for one extraction.

Jebus, I just had a serious amount of dental work done on myself, including getting six teeth capped. The work involved for prepping a human tooth for a cap/crown (they basically file the tooth down to about the width of a matchstick) is long and involved, as is setting the cap itself. Extractions are easy-peasy in comparison (for the most part. And I worked for a SA vet for a while, and generally the same applies, unless the tooth is impacted).

Anyway, my cost was $1070 per cap. Only $170 more than it cost you to have the puppy dog's tooth pulled. Methinks your vet's prices are a bit stiff.

Old Equine Lady

Mar. 28, 2009, 11:26 PM

I recently has a small animal vet take care of my dogs and cats. Our friend of ours is a large animal vet and had made the case for using the small animal vets, better care, etc. Normally our large animal vet would give our small animals shots when they came out to do the horses. The bill for 5 dogs and 2 cats, only 2 needed rabies this year and all 7 got distemper, which came to $740.00 for shots, and examine. Had the 4 horses yearly shots and they came to $432.00, with 5 shots to each and blood for coggins.
I do understand the small animal vet has an office and staff, but our large animal also has an office and staff, plus a fully loaded truck. But what I don't understand is why is the small animal vet's rabies shot $29 and the large is $16? Why is the small animal vet's office visit for each is $39 and the farm call for the large animal is $35 for all?

Parker_Rider

Mar. 29, 2009, 12:39 AM

I too appreciate options. I really like options. If there's just one option, I know things either aren't good or it's something incredibly simple. This is why I'm angry at my vet now (see the thread "My problem Aussie"...). I got more options of what could be ailing my ridiculous dog on COTH than the vet offered and that's even when I pressed for "Why is my dog gimping around?! give me anything you can think of!" She was stuck on the "bone issue" and nothing else was going to fly. I even signed the paper allowing for bloodwork and anything else that needed to be done! All they did was x-rays and say "I don't know, keep his movement restricted."
All this from the same vet who a year ago told my mom to "Just stop feeding Aidan so much food," when he ballooned up to 115 lbs (he's a golden retriever!!!). The dog wouldn't eat as it was, so it wasn't a food issue, but all that be damned, my mom was just feeding him too much according to this vet (I was away at college, for those wondering why I wasn't the one feeding my dog :)). When I practically ordered everyone involved to check his thyroid or anything else (he was my Christmas present in 2000, so he was my baby), and oh wait, the vet was wrong and turns out my dog had maybe a week to live. Aidan had so much fluid in his chest and lung cavities and so many tumors, he didn't last through the weekend.
To the vets out there... options are good. Many of us like options, from easy peasy to fix to worst case scenario. :) Many of us will also spend as much as our budgets allow. However, it's the lack of caring, the lack of time spent on our pets and yet, the still pushy attitude and the guilt trips over "extras" that are the killers.
Sorry, rant done. As is my time with this vet.

chaltagor

Mar. 29, 2009, 09:21 PM

I agree that picking tartar off the teeth is not a dental cleaning. When the cat or dog is under anesthesia is the only way to do a complete cleaning. Scaling under the gumline can not be done properly while the cat or dog is awake!

This needs explaining, as I don't think most people understand it. Hand scaling scrapes the tartar off and leaves grooves in the enamel. You cannot polish an animal's teeth without sedation, so the grooves are not smoothed out and they then pick up more tartar and the teeth are worse than before.

I have people complain about the price of an office call and say their pets cost more to take to the vet than when they go themselves to their doctor. I ask them what their doctor charges for an office call and they have no idea. So how do they know who is more expensive? Then I ask them if they can get in-house lab work, surgery, radiographs, a manicure and dental work done at their doctor. Nope, none of them go to the Mayo clinic.

ddmarie

Mar. 29, 2009, 11:11 PM

I agree with your last post. At the clinic that I work at we appreciate referrals very much. When a client refers anyone to us we send them a thank you card and a choice of 10.00 Gift card to Starbucks,Target, Jambajuice a few others I can't remember. Or credit off their next service. It is not much but the clients appreciate the acknowledgement. Word of mouth is the best way to build up clientele.
In the 11 years that I have been a vet tech I have worked with a number of doctors and it seems a if some doctors need to learn to communicate on a level that clients can understand. This one doctor I worked for would use "big words,doctor lingo" that some clients had no idea what he was talking about. They would be so frustrated and when things were explained in simple terms they were more understanding and willing to do certain work ups. Communication is a big thing.

CatOnLap

Mar. 30, 2009, 11:14 AM

I ask them what their doctor charges for an office call and they have no idea. So how do they know who is more expensive?
Allow me to answer. As a people physician, I am only allowed to charge about $39 for an office visit and about $61 for a house call. The government sets the fees and there are hefty fines for "overbilling".

My last office visit for my dog on Thursday was a $57 charge (vaccs and medications etc were extra to that). My last "house" call for my horse in July was $74( examination, vaccs, etc, extra to that). Vet fees are not regulated and rise as high as the market will bear.

So um, yeah, vets make more than doctors around here.

vxf111

Mar. 30, 2009, 12:35 PM

Read James Harriod's memoirs as a country vet, and you come across the same thing: Tricky Woo paid huge amounts while others got a freeby.

Oh man, I love those boots. Tricky Woo and all the special treats/desserts he ate and how the vets would make excuses to check him-- just to get some goodies themselves. :)

I think a lot of the issues on this thread boil down to one thing-- communication. I think most reasonable people understand that vets have overhead and have to earn a living. The question is whether the client feels that they got value for their money and understands what the options are, what they cost, and in the end-- the client has to feel like they made a good choice.

I've had some issues with small animal vets-- including UPenn's Ryan Hospital which is the best small animal clinic around. The crux of the issues boiled down to vets NOT LISTENING.

About a year ago, my cat Callie stopped eating, was drooling, and threw up once. I took her to my small animal clinic. They explained the options, ran bloodwork/diagnostics, and took films. Callie's bloodwork was normal except for a high white bloodcell count. In the end, they thought Callie had gastroenteritus or a blockage and they prescibed an oral painkiller to squirt in her mouth, and some stomach soothing medicine. Big $$$ bill which I paid without question. I took Callie home.

She fought like CRAZY over the medicine, which was unlike her, and she didn't improve. Brought her back a week later. The clinic ran some additional tests, took some additional films. They said if she didn't improve, I would have to take her to the emergency clinic at UPenn. To this point, I don't blame the clinic. They were given free reign to do any diagnostics they wished, they thought they had narrowed down the problem. They were wrong, but no one is psychic.

Callie didn't improve. She went inpatient at Penn. You don't know vet bills until you've seen what Penn can do when given a free reign to "figure out what's wrong, at any cost." I had to sit down when they gave me the bill. They did more films, ultrasound, the works. They wanted to try Callie on novel diets, in case it was an allergy, so they kept her a week. Ultimately, they concluded it was probably gastroenteritus and the problem was in Callie's stomach. Boy oh boy, Penn is not cheap-- especially for an admitted cat that stays a week. I paid the bill. I didn't complain.

I took Callie home. She didn't improve. Here is where it all went wrong...

I took her back to my regular clinic a week later. I said "she's not eating, she's acting like her mouth hurts, she's drooling blood/pus/drool out her mouth and nose, she's pawing at her face, she's fighting the medicine like nothing you have ever seen, her mouth stinks." I didn't realize it (not a vet myself) but this were clear signs of something wrong in her MOUTH rather than her STOMACH. The vet NEVER LOOKED IN CALLIE'S MOUTH. Not even a cursory look. She just kind of looked at the charts, saw the gastroenteritus, dismissed my description, and sent me home with more of the same meds and told me that gastroenteritus just takes a while to clear up.

Callie was getting worse. I went back a few days later. Same thing. Quick cursory examination and no willingness to listen to me/be open to the problem being something other than what Penn gave the rubber stamp to. Callie, by this time, was suffering, had lost about half her body weight, couldn't eat, and looked one foot in the grave.

I took Callie to a different small clinic. A cheap one actually. I sat down with the vet. He said "tell me everything that's happened and tell me how Callie is acting now." As soon as I started describing the drooling/mouth smell-- he opened her mouth and the most horrible odor full the room. Her mouth was FULL OF PUS, hugely inflamed, red, swollen, bleeding-- disgusting. Any cursory, brief examination by ANY VET would have shown that. If only the former vets had LISTENED TO ME when I dscribed Callie's behavior and not just looked at the chart and refused to consider any alternatives. Callie suffered for MONTHS needlessly (and the meds I was given to squirt in her mouth weren't to be put on open sores/bleeding gums and probably caused her excrutiating pain). The new vet cleared up Callie's infection with $3 antibiotics. As simple as that.

Turns out that she has an underlying immune disorder that caused the gums to become infected. I don't blame Penn or my old clinic for not catching that right away. It's an unusual/odd disorder. I don't blame them for initially thinking gastroenteritus. But when they stopped LISTENING and refused to thoroughly examine the cat-- that's where it all went wrong. I spent several thousands of dollars on a problem that was just plain misdiagnosed again and again-- due to a failure to communicate. Worse than the money, Callie SUFFERED-- I mean SUFFERED, needlessly and for way too long. her bloodwork from VISIT #1 suggested an infection! That clinic just never bothered to find out where/why.

I had a very frank, polite chat with my regular vet from the first clinic when this was all said and done. We were very friendly over the years and would even email each other. She was EXTREMELY defensive and went so far as to suggest that the new vet was missing the real disgnosis and had sort of "made up" the immune problem which clearly wasn't present or else the original clinic would have caught it. She was defensive instead of listening.

For many years I gladly, happily paid the $$$ bills from my small animal clinic because I felt that my cats were getting excellent care, and that I understood what I was being sold and why. The moment I felt the care was not up to snuff-- I would not have wanted to pay $1 for that service. Better communication... BOTH WAYS from me/the vet would have salvaged a 4+ year excellent client relationship. Instead, I left that vet and won't ever go back or recommend them, all over a communication issue. Anyone can miss a diagnosis, no one is perfect-- but to repeatedly miss it because you won't LISTEN to the owner? That's unacceptable.

Penthilisea

Mar. 30, 2009, 01:01 PM

Wow vxf, you were way more polite then I would have been. That is EXACTLY the kind of stuff I have issue with. When professionals miss the easy stuff, or fail to do their job. Like examining the animal, from head to toe. When it is in-patient. For a week.

I would have been livid.

I am just glad your kitty is ok now!

vxf111

Mar. 30, 2009, 01:11 PM

Oh, and although I had been having the former clinic clean both my cats' teeth yearly since they turned 6 (they are 9 now)... the former clinic never noticed any gum disease/infection in Callie AND a month ago Chloe had to have 6 teeth pulled because they were rotten and infected. Nobody's perfect, but do 6 teeth deteriorate so quickly over the course of a year AND you miss gum inflamation? I guess it's possible, but it makes me question the thoroughness of the prior cleaning at that clinic. :(

I have 2 veeeeerrryy expensive domestic shorthaired cats and now they're both drool queens. Chloe because she's practically toothless and Callie because she's got funky gum disease off and on (treating it with Atopica, which helps a LOT but she's still NQR). Drool fest. :):)

vxf111

Mar. 30, 2009, 01:21 PM

How can you talk about kitties without sharing pictures?

Chloe
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/Chloe%20and%20Callie/?action=view&current=ChloeonCouch.jpg

Callie
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/Chloe%20and%20Callie/?action=view&current=CallieCatPosing.jpg

SonnysMom

Mar. 30, 2009, 02:47 PM

I inherited a slightly psychotic cat when the owner died. She had not had vet care in 3 years. When I went to take her to my vet we had to use welding gloves to get her in the crate. I just couldn't see taking her in on Sat and being that close to feral. I was moving in a month anyway and would need to board her. My vet does not do boarding for healthy animals.
I decided to bring psycho kitty to a vet practice that a friend was a vet tech at. They do boarding and would do her exam and shots while she was there. I specifically wanted them to tranq her for the exam and shots. I signed extra forms and indicated on the questionnaire to treat this cat as a feral. The vet decides she doesn't need to be tranq'd. I hear that the vets blood was all over the examining table by the time they were done. Note on cage when we went to pick her up was that the owner needed to do transfer.
Fast forward about 4 months. Psycho kitty is now friendly for DH and me and has a new name, Jazz. At like 11 pm on a Sat night she shows up with an obviously broken hind leg. Call my normal vet he is out of the country so call vet that did shots since they have her records anyway and do emergency care. We take her in on Sunday around 8 AM. They tranq and xray her. All 4 bones in hind leg are broken. They recommend surgery to pin the bones. This would need to be done on Monday for $1,700. They have I decide if anybody is do surgery on one of my animals it will be my normal vet.
Bring cat and records to normal vet. He looks at records and xrays and says why don't we just leave the soft cast on for a few weeks since the bones are well lined up. Cat are amazing healers. He doesn't feel surgery is needed. Few weeks later we come back things are healing nicely so replaces the soft cast. 7 years later I can't tell which leg she broke. My normal vet also made an interesting observation. The notes from the other vet when they xrayed her they decided to do a courtesy no charge ear cleaning. Hey that was really nice except that they didn't notice the ear mites.
So if they had tranq'd her for the first exam when she had her shots they would have told me she had ear mites and tapeworm and then she wouldn't have given the ear mites to the rest of my cats. By them not listening to me about wanting her tranq'd they couldn't really do an exam.

They also never gave me any other options for setting the break other than $1,700 in surgery versus the $500 that is cost for my regular vet to treat her.

My regular vet gives me a list of any options available including pros/cons, price estimates and anticipated outcomes. I love my vet. No he is not a cheap vet either.

Alice

Mar. 30, 2009, 03:51 PM

You are da bomb.

What a great advocate you are for your cats. I'm sorry your wee cat suffered for so long, hope she continues to do well for a long time yet.

You can just tell, can't you - when a vet stops listening. Perhaps they are accustomed to seeing a lot of ignorant owners. I really feel that at times some do feel we couldn't possibly have anything of importance to say that they wouldn't catch themselves.

And how great it is to hear of so many people who treat cats with the same respect that others reserve for dogs or horses.

vxf111

Mar. 30, 2009, 04:06 PM

They're my cats. I am responsible for them. Period. Same with my horses. All my animals are mine, I have to do the best I can for them. I knew I took on that responsibility when I got them.

Even if they are little droolers ;) and even though a certain horse and a certain cat can be giant PITAs at times ;)

Parker_Rider

Mar. 30, 2009, 06:19 PM

So I seem to be the COTH book club director, but vxf's post made me think of a book I had to read for class (Intelligence Analysis, interestingly enough) called How Doctors Think by Dr. Alan (?) Groopman. It discusses that exact point when doctor's stop listening or just go by a decision tree and miss the diagnosis. Vxf, your story reminded me exactly of the example story Dr. Groopman uses in the introduction (doctors who don't listen and miss the diagnosis and continue to just "go by the notes" of the other doctors). Apparently it not only relates to human doctors, but animal docs too. Great read on how to improve your relationship with your doctor and get better care.

Guin

Mar. 30, 2009, 06:27 PM

Wow. $500 for a dental is A LOT.

I pay about $190 for my dog with bad teeth to get a full dental (usually including some extracts) with antibiotics included. She's about 12 lbs. Great clinic, great vets, top care located in the midwest.

In the Boston area, full dental (general anesthesia) is $400. I called around. $400 everywhere in a 30-mile radius. The midwest is just less expensive than the east or west coasts, generally.

ETA: Tribble (corgi) had her teeth cleaned last spring. When I took her in this fall for her shots, vet looked at her teeth and said, Oh, you should schedule a dental, she has tartar. WTF? Hello, I just spent $400 getting her teeth cleaned in APRIL. Sorry, don't think so. Plus, she reacts very badly to anesthesia - makes her sick for a full 24 hours afterwards. I'm not putting her under again unless it's some dire emergency. Tartar on her teeth is NOT an emergency.

satan

Mar. 30, 2009, 07:00 PM

grayarabpony

Mar. 30, 2009, 07:19 PM

Allow me to answer. As a people physician, I am only allowed to charge about $39 for an office visit and about $61 for a house call. The government sets the fees and there are hefty fines for "overbilling".

My last office visit for my dog on Thursday was a $57 charge (vaccs and medications etc were extra to that). My last "house" call for my horse in July was $74( examination, vaccs, etc, extra to that). Vet fees are not regulated and rise as high as the market will bear.

So um, yeah, vets make more than doctors around here.

My husband has the same answer as CatonLap, no question about it.

Not bothering to examine the patient in front of you and actually *listen* to their patient/advocate is one of the biggest pitfalls of assembly-line medicine, both in veterinary and human medical fields.

Horsegal984

Mar. 30, 2009, 09:21 PM

I work with small animal vets all the time. I use the ones in petsmart. Banfield vets. Have you got any around you? Now, I have dealt with one that was a nightmare but I use one now and she is wonderful!! I love her. I have many pets. 6 lizards, 1 dog, 1 ferret, 7 hamsters, 2 tree frogs. So I am on a first name basis with my vet. You want to be careful with the teeth as if you don't remove the plaque and it builds up you will get kidney failure and liver failure. They are all connected. It is unfortunate but there is more to it than stinky breath. $500 is steep though. Check out your local Petsmart for a Banfield.
Good luck:)

I try really REALLY hard to remain professional and not bad-mouth other clinics, because it's bad for buisness, and you never know when you might need a job ;). With that said, I HIGHLY reccomend staying as far from Banfield as possible. There *might* be one or two good ones, but overall they are a nightmare to deal with. Google it, for any doubters. What comes up is pretty scary, and really with them it's cooperate medicine, where Cat A with vomiting and diarrhea is treated with these meds because that's what the higher ups say. They LOOOOVVE to overvaccinate animals, and they itemize their bills down so much to make it look like you're saving a fortune if you buy one of their "health care plans". If you every get one it can be almost impossible to get out of without having to pay WAY more. They routinely vaccinate for diseases that are not needed for individual animals, and some of those vaccines are at a higher risk for causing reactions, including immune mediated hemolytic anemia. :eek:

I can honestly say I will NEVER work in a Banfield, because I won't work for a clinic where the animals needs are put SO low on the priority list! If I ever become president, I would shut them all down. I really really really despise what they do for the veterinary community.

Vets might have the strongest stomachs on earth, but you wanna see one gag bring up a Banfield. :rolleyes:

Ghazzu

Mar. 30, 2009, 10:04 PM

I'd sell my own plasma before I'd work for Banfield.

midnightdream

Mar. 31, 2009, 12:50 PM

I feel your pain. My cat's vet bill costs more than double my horse. It's ridiculous. My horse's vet travels almost an hour to get to us when traffic is good. I guess though my cat's vet does have to pay for the building, the electricity, etc.

akrogirl

Mar. 31, 2009, 11:57 PM

See, and that's the thing...

In our practice, our goal was for the doctors to be DOCTORS. Not fiddle fart around with computers, inputting charges, filling scripts, cleaning kennels, monitoring post ops, running labs, prepping for surgery, taking temps, suture removals, doing the books, training staff, hiring staff, etc.

.

I am a pharmacist by training and have a real problem with the vets leaving the scripts to their techs and not checking them. I have lost count of the number of times I have been given the wrong medicine, wrong quantity or wrong dosage. In at least one case, the error was egregious enough to have been fatal if I hadn't caught it - I could tell the vet was breathing a sign of relief when he called to apologise.

I have also had a vet fail to give me lab results that showed one of my cats had a thyroid problem. I spotted them in the charts on a later visit.

We did have one outstanding vet but, unfortunately, he had to move further north after the practice he was working for went out of business :-(

Horsegal984

Apr. 1, 2009, 09:05 AM

I am a pharmacist by training and have a real problem with the vets leaving the scripts to their techs and not checking them. I have lost count of the number of times I have been given the wrong medicine, wrong quantity or wrong dosage. In at least one case, the error was egregious enough to have been fatal if I hadn't caught it - I could tell the vet was breathing a sign of relief when he called to apologise.

Just because a tech called it in doesn't mean that they are the one that made the mistake. Dr could have written in the chart wrong, or told them the wrong directions. They make mistakes too. Just sayin ;)

One of the things I really don't like about a clinic having 'techs' is that in most states right now you can work in a vets office as a tech with no prior experience or training. It's like Joe Blow walking into your doctors office off the street and saying "I wanna be a nurse, hire me". How confident would you feel about him being your nurse, or taking care of your kids?

While I personally know a lot of really great techs that have only had on the job training and never gone to school, I also know a lot of bad ones. Typically the ones that are better are the ones that have been doing it for years, but it's hard to know who those are when they walk into the room.

The clinic I work for does a really good job about defining the job responsibilities and keeping to using techs and assistants. Our assistants help us out in so many ways, and right now two of them are applying to tech school, so we're all making an effort to help them expand their skills, and give them more indepth explanations to help them learn and be better prepared.

Of course, having registered/licensed/certified techs adds to your overhead, so in one way or another it reflects on client costs. Our clinic has 4 techs and 5-6 assistants, and several high school girls who work in the kennel only. We're not the cheapest clinic around, but we're much less that the one 1/2 mile down the street, and have a way better staff than the one 2 miles away. I think the key to finding a small animal vet you really like is to shop around; ask a lot of your pet owning friends who they like, who they hate, and then call the top 2-3 and ask for a meet and greet with them. It'll let you get a feel for them, their waiting times, the staff and the doctors before your pets ever set foot in the door.

Katherine
Vet Tech

akrogirl

Apr. 1, 2009, 11:20 AM

Just because a tech called it in doesn't mean that they are the one that made the mistake. Dr could have written in the chart wrong, or told them the wrong directions. They make mistakes too. Just sayin ;)
Katherine
Vet Tech

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but no one called anything in. The meds were dispensed at the vet clinic. I understand that mistakes can be made - we used to catch a minimum of two or three a day when I worked in retail pharmacy, but that is why the meds need to be checked by the vet before being handed out. Pharmacy techs are required to have their work checked, the same should apply to vet techs in this regard.

Ghazzu

Apr. 1, 2009, 11:46 AM

I've had pharmacists send me home with the wrong drugs/dose.
It happens.

OTOH, I once had a pharmacist call me about an Rx for a horse I scripted out what said, "Are you *sure* you want that high a dose? That could be toxic, doc!"

We both had a good laugh when I told him to read the patient info more closely--the patient weighed 1000 lbs.

But I'm glad he called.

Unfortunately, he was another one of those independent pharmacists who seem to be a vanishing breed...he was more than happy to stock several human medications that there was no veterinary equivalent for, and at a reasonable cost to my clients.

The chain that replaced him was not interested.

Highflyer

Apr. 1, 2009, 02:06 PM

I guess must be lucky--I have a great small animal vet, who makes house calls in her mobile hospital, but also lets me run the animals over to her and save the call fee. She's kind, careful, and reasonably priced. The dogs love her, and it's always a battle to keep them out of her truck when she comes over.

In fact, even though everyone always complains about vets that don't love animals, I've never had one, small or large animal, that didn't have a dozen or so pets of all kinds.

Guin

Apr. 1, 2009, 07:18 PM

I have to reply with this story that a friend of mine just related. Her beloved senior dog had to be euthanized on the table when it was discovered he had terminal cancer throughout his abdomen. :(

Two days later, she just received in the mail a plaster cast of his pawprint, with a hand-written note signed by the vet and his surgical staff. :sadsmile:

These people are worth their weight in gold.

WalkInTheWoods

Apr. 2, 2009, 02:15 PM

I have an elderly 13 year old dog, he is old, I know this, he has hip dysplasia and some arthritis and is on medication and an injection for it. Three times now I have gone in with a certain time for my appointment, we waited and waited, my poor old dog having a hard time standing on the linoleum floor, so I ask when will we be going back. They take us back and we have waited up to 45 minutes in the little room, after having already waited a good hour to be taken back to begin with!!

Each visit, because it is such a strain on my old dogs hips, he has literally collapsed in the office, unable to get up, scared and shaking badly. Last week I called because I had some concerns about his health and before I booked an appointment explained to the vet tech that I will NOT wait more than 15 minutes, if it is longer I will leave. She was semi nice but explained they are very busy and I had to understand, I said no I did not, my dog is old, he just cannot stand that long and then said I would be going somewhere else. I did and the new small animal vet is wonderful No waiting, she books her appointments every half hour!!

My local vet didn't make me wait too long for my large 16 yr old dog but to me any time was too long on those shiny linoleum floors. So i would bring in a large foam dog bed and throw it down in the waiting room. When we get into the exam room he would be worked on as he laid on his cushy bed.

Once i took him to an eye specialist with shiny floors. After sitting in the waiting room for 15 minutes, i walked to the desk and told them that my dog would be out in the van on his comfortable bed and when they were ready i would brng him in. Waiting time was 45 minutes. When i was able to take him to the exam room, I put my down vest on the floor and he laid on it. When the specialist and the tech came into the exam room they were pretty suprised. They said you must really love that dog. Im thinking well yeah duh i drove an hour to bring him to a specialist.:lol:

username

Apr. 3, 2009, 05:20 AM

we actually pay substantially more for vet care for our epileptic dog than we have ever paid for kids or most other of our animals in total. starting with the several multiple-thousand-dollar initial "pay up front with cash or credit card only" exam (the end result of which was "sorry, but we don't know why he is seizing without a work-up that would require you to mortgage the farm") and all the necessary office visits for blood work to prove to somebody somwhere that a) I am not taking his seizure medication myself and b) it is not destroying his liver or other vital parts, and then all the normal routine care and medications, not to mention the hours spent in waiting rooms and...wow! I don't even want to think about it! and I really like these vets!

then consider my wonderful equine vet service folks, who will always find time to talk to a distressed horse mom like a friend, who come out when I call them "for real" as quickly as is possible. they have allowed me to string out payments for over a year when I've been slammed and they often "donate to the cause" when it is clear that the bill will be large.

our small animal vet once said "Boy! you must really love that dog!" as she presented me with a $695 bill for a 15 minute visit. my equine vet never got around to charging me for euthanizing a dear old friend on an unforgetably sad Sunday. very hard to reconcile those two behaviors. must be reasons but they are beyond me.........