Wormy horses and feeling like a complete tool

[3dazey]

I can't wrap my head around this...looking for an explanantion. Even with extensive overnight research (can you say completely freaked out?), I apparently still need a better understanding.

Vet did fecals on my 2 horses Monday. I have always been very aggressive in their worming protocols for good reason, and did not expect what I got. BOTH are in the high-shedding range, which does concern me greatly but we have a plan for dealing with this. What has me flummoxed is that both were wormed 2 weeks ago with appropriate full doses of Quest. Shouldn't the shedding be at a minimum right now? And if so, the fecals results point to something pretty sinister...

I think I'm not understanding some of what I read during my research travels last night, and definitely what I THOUGHT I knew is being seriously challenged. Can anyone shed some informative light? And point me toward the EqTrainer thread that contains her deworming protocol. I'd like to read that over again, as well, but was unable to find.

Thanks in advance...I'm feeling like a pretty puny horseperson right now. :no::confused::o ...crawling away to spend the morning in a dark cave...:(

[jaimebaker]

This might be a stretch but how are you judging your horses weight? Weight tape or have they actually been weighed on a scale?? I only ask because I did not know how innaccurate weight tapes were. My horses were getting under dewormed for the last 2 years because I was going off of weight tapes (at least 100 lbs less than their actual weight, maybe more). Now I have a mess on my hands to clean up from 2 years of under deworming. :cry:

As far as EqT's program, I'm pretty sure it's in the giant onchocerca thread. If you do a search within the thread you might have luck finding it. I'm pretty sure it's within the first 10 pages.

For what it's worth, I felt like a crappy horse owner when I figured out I had been under deworming. But all I can do is pull myself up by the boot straps and get back on track.

[purplnurpl]

I don't know what a 'high shedding range' is.

I guess fecals have their place. I don't trust them when they are negative.
But really you need a homogeneous mixture of crap to get a good reading. I told my vet if he wanted an accurate fecal on his horses he needed to scoop up a whole pile of crap and vortex it first. Then take the sample.
braaahahahhaaaa!

in a nut shell Eqtrainer double doses everything and gives a power pac 1 to 2 times a year.
Obviously Quest is ALWAYS a single doser though.

I've been on the protocol for 16 months and my horse was still NQR during his Power Pac last month. He was a little dull the third day. The year before he had a mild gas colic on the thrid day so that was improved.

[ponyjumper4]

EqTrainer's program is on the first page
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=163451&highlight=EqTrainer+program

[Auventera Two]

Before you panic - repeat the test. I've been the recipient of "bad news" only to find out that they gave me the wrong test results back. Good grief.

I do not agree with also this double dosing of wormers that goes on. I think you make things worse when you are constantly flooding the horse's system with chemicals. I'm not a "holistic" type by any stretch of the imagination, but I think people go overboard with wormers and vaccinations.

One of the problems with high wormloads is environment. You have horses crowded together living in paddocks, eating off their own manure. Pastures not properly drug and rotated, etc. Clean up the environment and you shouldn't have to do double and triple dosing and power packs (which is dosing 5x in a row! :eek:) two or three times a year.

Honestly - if a person needs to stuff that many chemicals in their horse's system, then their environment needs to be cleaned up. Everybody is so quick to get on EqTrainer's worming program, but to my knowledge she is not a vet. Work with your vet to develop a program that works for YOUR HORSE. That program will be tailored based on the horses's eating habits, your environment, and what kind of temperatures and snow cover you have, hot weather, etc......

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Did you use Quest or Quest Plus? I think part of this may be due to the fact that Quest Plus doesn't get all stages of encysted strongyles. And the discussion I've read on here is that when you kill off strongyles there is some sort of signaling underway to let the encysted strongyles know it is time to come out. So if you dewormed with Quest a couple of weeks ago what you are seeing now may be due to the strongyle die-off and resulting signaling. The encysted strongyles have emerged. The PowerPack is supposed to be better for dealing with the encysted Stongyles because as the worms die off you are still giving more dewormer which should kill off those that emerge.

Otherwise, I personally give more dewormer than the weight tape would suggest. I do this in case the weight tape is not accurate and in the event that some of the dewormer is dropped. It is safe to give more so long as it is not Quest. There are some weight estimation calculators online that use your measurements to estimate your horse's weight. You might want to use a combination of those with your weight tape (average them) if you don't have access to a scale (I don't.)

ETA: I don't use Zimectrin Gold. And you may also be dealing with dewormer resistance which is on the rise.

[Auventera Two]

Most local feed stores have a huge industrial scale that they weigh grain trucks on. Just call your feed store and ask for a good time that you can bring your horse in and weigh them on their scale. :) My feed store does it for free if you're a regular customer. Otherwise they charge like $5 or something.

[Hilary]

I got a fancy weight tape (read giant tape measure with special instructions printed on it) and you measure the horse as you would for a blanket, then around the middle.

Take the length measurement times itself, then times the around the middle number and divide that number by 320.

I found the regular weight tape to be off significantly!! Like 200-300lbs.

Quest is stored in the horse's fat cells (why it can be dangerous for a very thin horse), so it acts as slow release - it should be getting the worms that are shedding.

[Posting Trot]

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to wonder whether your test results were accurate. Step back and look at your horses and look at your (or your barn's) overall management. Are the horses in good weight? shiny? good attitudes? If so you may be worrying needlessly, and it might be a good idea to repeat the fecals for your peace of mind.

If the horses are not looking so hot, then you need to talk to the vet and consider your options. Quest does target encysted strongyles, but only in the L4 stage (the last stage before they emerge from the cysts)--Quest Plus is moxidectin plus praziquantel so it also targets tapeworms. A Powerpack targets both L3 and L4 encysted strongyles. I don't know if an encysted L3 strongyle could have gone through the L4 stage and then emerged all within two weeks, and also there's the issue that Quest stays active in the horse for 80 days post administration of the dose. So if they had gone through the L4 stage, you'd think that the Quest would have gotten them.

One awful possibility of course is that your horses have worms that are resistent to the ivermectin-moxidectin class of de-wormers. Some resistance has been reported, I believe, in ruminants (cows and sheep), so it's not impossible. But it would be bad.

So I'd talk to your vet and also maybe ask him or her to contact the nearest vet school. It would also perhaps be worth discussing with your county's ag. extension agent.

Good luck.

ETA: it also would make sense to contact Quest's manufacturer (Fort Dodge, I think) with this issue.

[Larbear]

Quest is stored in the horse's fat cells (why it can be dangerous for a very thin horse), so it acts as slow release - it should be getting the worms that are shedding.

And to add to this, moxidectin being fat soluble, it can cross the blood brain barrier (BBB). With the thin horse, there are higher levels of moxidectin in the blood which can lead to it crossing into the brain to give the neurological effects.

[MoonWitch]

regarding doing fecals and not worming those that test negative. I brought up the "false negative" to which he replied that that's pretty had to have considering the nature of the manure factory they have internally. That being said, it is still in the early stages of theory and formal research.

As he explained, this is just like the anti-biotics in kids, where the germs are building up an immunity to every drug we come up with. Same with the worms. When we worm, say we get 90% of the little critters. The 10% we don't get, breed that immunity to their gazillion eggs and so on. Now we move on to the next wormer etc. See my point? BUT if you only worm the ones testing positive you eliminate this scenario.

Me? I'm still on the 8week rotation. With 18 horses we just aren't there yet.

[3dazey]

Thanks to everyone for their feedback and support. What Posting Trot was getting to was what I was worried most about. If I understand it correctly (and God knows that's not a given), the horses shouldn't be shedding eggs like this 2 weeks post-moxidectin. It's supposed to still be 99 - 100% effective on everything but tapes and one stage of encysted strongyle, yes? And if they truly are shedding this many, does this mean we have reached resistance?

That would be really, really bad. But my knowledge is pretty basic and maybe not entirely accurate...some of the scientific stuff I'm trying to read is going a bit over my head...:confused::eek:

[gabz]

Did your vet identify what kind of eggs are being shed? That's the key piece of info for treatment.

There are times throughout the year when I (secretly) do a dewormer and then 2 or 3 weeks later do something different. Usually, I'll use a Strongid or Oxifenbendazole paste and 2 or 3 weeks later do an Ivermectin. I had a horselady teach me this because of how internal parasites migrate and cycle ...

Quest is a broad spectrum dewormer, but it's high efficiency is only targeted to certain parasites I believe.

When immature parasites discover there are no more adults, they will mature, migrate, emerge and guess what? Start shedding eggs to perpetuate their species.
In addition, internal parasites have climate/ daylight systems. They know when the opportune time to emerge is, if they are to be shed in manure.

Southern climates have their cycles of parasite activity/ migration / emergence; the SW US has their cycles, New England, the northern Midwest, etc.

[LoveMyArabians]

Thanks to everyone for their feedback and support. What Posting Trot was getting to was what I was worried most about. If I understand it correctly (and God knows that's not a given), the horses shouldn't be shedding eggs like this 2 weeks post-moxidectin. It's supposed to still be 99 - 100% effective on everything but tapes and one stage of encysted strongyle, yes? And if they truly are shedding this many, does this mean we have reached resistance?

That would be really, really bad. But my knowledge is pretty basic and maybe not entirely accurate...some of the scientific stuff I'm trying to read is going a bit over my head...:confused::eek:

Just a thought...maybe the tubes of wormer were bad... maybe they froze or something... maybe the chemicals were challenged somehow... try a different wormer and retest...

Cindy

[starkissed]

trust me I feel your pain. I felt like I complete idiot really recently when I found out that my 2 horses had relatively high egg counts or whatever its measured in.
That being said, the vet came out, did the fecal, pos, she suggested worming them with equimax, and then 10-14 days later worm them again with Quest. Then a little bit after that run another fecal exam.

The thing with one time deworming is they are good if you horses doesnt have other phases 'waiting' in the digestive tracts walls. My vet explained it that if a horse is 'wormy' the one dose will clear out the system and 'make room" for the other guys who are in a different life stage to come out and grow in the open digestive tract. That is the reason why I dewormed my horses again after a week and a half so the other ones could come out and be exposed to the parasiticide.


I am not sure what the reason for your horses obtaining worms are. My 2 geldings had worms because I boarded them at other barns. Despite worming every 6 weeks and having them on a daily wormer, the farms were really poorly managed. And I feel really stupid 2 because I was having the hardest time getting my horse to put on weight. DUH.

[EqTrainer]

Hey A2, you're right, I'm not a vet :lol: but that doesn't mean I don't unfortunately know a lot about parasites... trust me, it wasn't in my career plan...

living in the deep south is akin to living in a tropical environment. We have a different set of issues down here than you would, up there. If the OP's horses are coming back w/a high count, then obviously her traditional worming system is not working, no? So should she just continue along that route anyway? Really.. what do you think? I would like to know another non-vet persons opinion about that :winkgrin:

Recent fecals on my farm showed zero parasites. Nice. Doesn't mean I'm going to STOP deworming, it means that I have a clue that things are working, but it doesn't mean I can be complacent about it. Not to mention, there are parasites all over a horses body, not just in its digestive tract... I'd prefer them to not have threadworms in their eyes, for example... :lol: crazy, I know. Maybe I'm just a little paranoid, not wanting to take the chance of them having worms in their eyes. I dunno. I like them having healthy eyeballs and all that. No ulcers here, either. Stomach worms.. hmmmm. Interesting creatures.

I agree that the OP should work w/her vet to get a good program going, but don't be surprised if it is closer to what I do than further apart.. it is common practice on many vets advice to deworm on a short cycle w/doubles when you have high worm loads. It is also soon to become common advice to mix chemical classes on a short cycle. And I recently read a study that says you can "undo" resistance by doing this.

But hey, I'm not a vet. So my horses don't colic (knock on wood) and they don't have ulcers and they don't have fungus' and their immune systems are really healthy and they are all easy keepers without metabolic issues but hey... really.. I'm not a vet. So nevermind :lol:

I do hope you realize that this is in good humor. I think it is all very amusing, other than that the OP's horse has a whopping big wormload.

[Auventera Two]

If a person has an agressive worming protocol and they still have a heavy wormload indicated on fecals, then investigate further before casually administering more chemicals to the animal's system.

If the OP's horses are coming back w/a high count, then obviously her traditional worming system is not working, no? So should she just continue along that route anyway? Really.. what do you think?

I think that when you're dealing with internal parasites, it is a bit irresponsible to tell others what to do across the internet. The danger of resistance is not something to mess with. Haven't we done the same with antibiotics???? Suzie Q had this sniffle and her doctor gave her amoxycillin so I'll give Jonnie amoxicillin too that was left over from my sinus infection last month. I just don't think people should screw around with stuff like this. When you're dealing with parasites, protozoa, bacteria, etc. that can develop resistance, you're playing with fire.

Like someone else mentioned, maybe the tubes were bad? Expired, frozen, got too hot, were defective from the factory? Sat on a loading dock in 100 degree sun somewhere? Who knows. Maybe she got the wrong test results back. Maybe the tech read the results incorrectly. Maybe the environment has too much crowding, too much manure, horses are fed too close to manure. Horses eat manure. Who knows.

And yes, I'm from the deep south - TN. :) I did not always live up here. We never double dosed and tripled dosed and power packed horses. We have never had a colic or a case of itchy bellies and tails, or wormy bellies or rain rot, or weight loss or poor hair coat and we've always used a modest regime - every 3 months, rotating classes.

I am not saying that every horse can get by fine with that program. I will say again - work with your local vet that knows your horses, knows your farm, knows your climate, etc. Don't just take double dosing and power packing instructions from someone who doesn't know your situation. It seems like worming instructions are tossed around so casually on this forum and I don't think it's necessarily healthy advice. Each situation is so different and you really have to work with a competent professional that personally knows you in order to get a good program worked out.

It's nothing aimed at you EqTrainer. It's just general frustration over the lack of concern for how serious worm resistance is. I think the casual exchange of double this and try that is really NOT a smart way to go. That's just my opinion, nothing more. It's just something to think about.

[ponyjumper4]

I think that when you're dealing with internal parasites, it is a bit irresponsible to tell others what to do across the internet.

EqTrainer hasn't told anyone what to do, she's been asked what she does, and she answered that. It's up to the individual to do their research and work with their vet (and it's surprising the number of vets who don't have a clue either) and determine their course.

[Posting Trot]

I'll just add that what EqTrainer does (or doesn't) do is somewhat moot in this case. If the OP's horses have worms that are resistant to the ivermectin-moxidectin class of de-wormers you could double dose them from here to eternity and it might not make one bit of difference (not to mention, of course, that you shouldn't double-dose moxidectin).

That is one reason why I think the OP should contact both her vet (and maybe the nearest vet school) and the makers of Quest about this. She needs some professional feedback about the possibility of resistance and the possibility of some kind of failure that was specific to the tubes of Quest she used.

[EqTrainer]

It's true.. I just share what I do and the results I get from doing it. People need to do their own research and their vet should be involved. There is a TON of information out there; what is important is to learn how to apply it to your own situation. That is what I have done; it works splendidly for me and is part of the entire program here and in the large group of horses I regularly work with.

I do suggest that anyone who really wants to understand more about parasites NOT use the internet as their only resource. I really didn't understand what types of parasites horses have until I spent a few bored hours in vets office and picked up a parasitology book. Holy crap!

[3dazey]

I appreciate this discussion. I found on the internet that a DVM at UGA (I believe with a PhD in parasitology) wants to hear from individuals who believe they may have worms on site that are resistant to ivermectin (or mox). He even gave out his email...brave man! :eek:

I think I will be in touch with him, but in the meantime I do agree that a retest is in order, and much more info needs to be shared between my vet and myself. This will happen, and fast, because I'm absolutely CRAWLING to do something...NOW!!! :(

[merrygoround]

I appreciate this discussion. I found on the internet that a DVM at UGA (I believe with a PhD in parasitology) wants to hear from individuals who believe they may have worms on site that are resistent to ivermectin (or mox). He even gave out his email...brave man! :eek:

I think I will be in touch with him, but in the meantime I do agree that a retest is in order, and much more info needs to be shared between my vet and myself. This will happen, and fast, because I'm absolutely CRAWLING to do something...NOW!!! :(

Sounds like an excellent plan of attack.

To date there have been occasional rumbles about ivermectin resistance, but nothing clearly proven. And nothing about Quest! ;)

[gabz]

well.. as has been said, until she knows what KIND of eggs are being shed... we're all just guessing here.
When I said I "secretly" do a back up dewormer or fast rotation or whatever anyone wants to call it, I said that because I don't typically tell anyone that that is in my rotation because it's something that **I** chose to do and I would only suggest it to someone else if they mentioned a problem and asked me for advice and that might be a suitable answer.

[3dazey]

I apologize, my assumption was that the eggs being shed were small strongyle...I think based on conversations I had with the vet, though she did not specifically state that in her email. That is why the high level of concern, especially given that the horses were both dosed with a full serving of Quest 2 weeks prior to the test. They are comfortably under the 1250# dose range, and I worm them on cross ties in the barn with the syringe well back into their mouths. I hold their heads up until they swallow and observe them for a few minutes before I do anything else with them. I know they got all of it because if they didn't I would see it on the floor!

I certainly appreciate all the feedback. It will help going forward.