Supposedly aggressive gelding boarding - Advice?

[A Bright Trick]

Just wanted to know what everyone thinks of turning out geldings with mares. I am about to board my horse at a wonderful facility and my gelding was a stud for 12yrs but with me only as a single horse and going on big group rides has been in no way studdy. I was told in the past he did act territorial but I don't know how. I was just told the current gelding at this pasture is peaceful as long as other geldings will semi-submit to him. Have any of you turned two geldings out together who were territorial and let them work out their business to an extent, and have it end with a fairly peaceful herd? thanks!

edit to add: My gelding is 14 now, and as a stud he was a little bossy around males I'm told, I didn't own him then.

[leakyb]

I would be very, very cautious turning two alpha type geldings out with mares to fight over. Maybe together with no mares they would work out a truce, but add a mare in season to the mix and you are asking for trouble.

Your boy certainly may seem "nonstuddy" on a trail ride, but I am sure he knows what he was for 12 years! I would not assume your boy would walk into a strange herd and submit to another gelding. Is there another turn out option for him?

[Simkie]

A horse that was a stud for 12 years and can be turned out in a mixed group is rare thing.

Has the horse been turned out with other horses AT ALL since he was gelded? If not, I would probably not even attempt to introduce him into a mixed herd.

[findeight]

Care needs to be taken turning ANY horses out together. Some supervision is needed to make sure they have a shot at getting along and nobody can really tell if even 2 non aggressive half dead 25 year old geldings won't kick the crap out of each other or 2 notoriously bitchy mares won't hit it off because nobody else can stand them. You just don't know until you can see them whether it's safe to turn them out together.

Some just don't like one another, some start fights and others are doormat victims of bully pasture mates. You just cannot tell.

That said, as a BO or BM, I'd not be too inclined to want to see with this one if he was a stud for 12 of his 14 years but start seperate, maybe in adjoining fields. If he has covered mares, I think you are out of luck turning him out with them.

[katarine]

I'd be surprised if there weren't issues. Possibly really ugly ones.

Your horse has no social skills, I'd bet: likely living the solo life as a stallion, then a solo life with you, now putting him out with a mixed herd with a clear and obvious leader?

If I owned a horse in that mix, I'd be pulling them out until and unless the dust settled.

Proceed with great caution. You future BM's plan for introducing him may tell you what you need to know about their experience level.

[A Bright Trick]

he's only been solitary with me. he's been with mares his whole life, even after gelding and doesn't mount them. Last year before I bought him he was in a herd of mares and a gelding he had issues with. Don't know the extent except she said he was a very aggressive gelding in turnout :(. And his original owners said as a stud he was a bit bossy. Since I've had him he's been alone except for a jenny donkey who he was fine with. And a mare. But now he's been alone for a couple months again.

This is a wonderful opportunity for me, they are offering everything free of charge... a stall, pastures for riding, arena, and traveling with them to events with our cowboy church, and I am wanting to get back involved like this so its awesome for me.. So I don't want his inability to be with geldings to mess it up. I can have him in the front with the dominant one and mares, or in back on 150 acres with submissive gelding and mares. Or when I come up with the $ for supplies they told me I can build up a pasture for him alone on the property. I'm just limited at the moment, and they did want to forewarn me of their gelding - who has never been submissive to others yet. So unless my gelding did back down, I could see this being difficult.

[Simkie]

So unless my gelding did back down, I could see this being difficult.

I can see it being DEADLY.

Please be careful. Is it still going to be free if your horse runs another through a fence?

[BuddyRoo]

I guess here would be my concerns...not sure how many apply to you

1) Who owns the rest of the horses? If they are owned by lots of different boarders and not the property owners, I would be leery--if your horse really hurts another one, is the BO covered? Because I would be PISSED as a boarder if someone took a "known" nasty horse and just threw them out with mine and mine got seriously injured. Yes, new horses/change in herd is often result in some minor wounds and such...get that...but major stuff is also a possibility and even more so with a horse who has no social skills.

2) Can YOU afford to pay the vet if your horse is seriously injured? Could happen. So it might be wise to try to save some money and make an adjacent paddock for him initially.

3) Will someone be there during the initial introductions and capable of controlling the situation? Lots of horses plus one newbie...gonna take more than one person--and there's some safety issue there as well.

4) How's the fence and the footing and is there enough room for horses to get away from each other? Sounds like in your case, these are very LARGE pastures which is good.

Generally, I think most horses can assimilate into a herd eventually. But you're bound to have some scratches and bumps and bites even in the more benign cases....if you think you may have an aggression problem, I think you need to have a Plan B.

[A Bright Trick]

I can see it being DEADLY.

Please be careful. Is it still going to be free if your horse runs another through a fence?

This is what I'm saying. I'm not sure what to do - realistically, it'll be hard to have an aggressive gelding when its not my own property like it has been. I know a lot of people do it on their own land and carefully seperate - but boarding?

[katarine]

Can you spring for some panels so he can be in a lot near them but not intermingled for a good long while?

[A Bright Trick]

I guess here would be my concerns...not sure how many apply to you

1) Who owns the rest of the horses? If they are owned by lots of different boarders and not the property owners, I would be leery--if your horse really hurts another one, is the BO covered? Because I would be PISSED as a boarder if someone took a "known" nasty horse and just threw them out with mine and mine got seriously injured. Yes, new horses/change in herd is often result in some minor wounds and such...get that...but major stuff is also a possibility and even more so with a horse who has no social skills.

2) Can YOU afford to pay the vet if your horse is seriously injured? Could happen. So it might be wise to try to save some money and make an adjacent paddock for him initially.

3) Will someone be there during the initial introductions and capable of controlling the situation? Lots of horses plus one newbie...gonna take more than one person--and there's some safety issue there as well.

4) How's the fence and the footing and is there enough room for horses to get away from each other? Sounds like in your case, these are very LARGE pastures which is good.

Generally, I think most horses can assimilate into a herd eventually. But you're bound to have some scratches and bumps and bites even in the more benign cases....if you think you may have an aggression problem, I think you need to have a Plan B.

they don't board to anyone else. It is their own personal barrel and calf roping horses. They said upfront their gelding would likely beat up on mine - I told them I honestly haven't had him with geldings since I've owned him. So with that, it would be me my husband and all of their family watching for hours. And their house is right there, too.

[tradewind]

Not to be harsh but I think you are INSANE to attempt to put this horse out in the types of mixed herds you are describing. Maybe until you can get the money together for supplies he can stay at home with you. Having him or any other horse dead or seriously hurt is certainly going to wreck the wonderful opportunity that you have been presented with. JMHO.

[A Bright Trick]

Not to be harsh but I think you are INSANE to attempt to put this horse out in the types of mixed herds you are describing. Maybe until you can get the money together for supplies he can stay at home with you. Having him or any other horse dead or seriously hurt is certainly going to wreck the wonderful opportunity that you have been presented with. JMHO.

well, I am not trying to sound insane, lol. I simply have never ever had to deal with this before. I've always had geldings who intermingled perfectly. I guess I was lucky!

I am not in a position to keep him at home - we rent and unfortunatly this is a perfect place BUT our landlord says no because their son was killed on a horse there years ago. So I'm stuck. And since this place is so great - I really want to utilize it, and become more active with rodeo events again. But I am definatly stressed. My horse is amazing - he's awesome to ride. But with boarding, I hate that I may have a liability walking around......

[esdressage]

Is your landlord worried about liability issues, or is it personal/emotional because of his son's accident? If it's a liability issue, you could offer to sign a robust release form that releases him of ANY liability whatsoever pertaining to your horse. If it's a personal thing with him, though, I understand with what he went through.

I'm not seeing things ending well with your horse in the turnout/mixed herd situation, unfortunately.

[A Bright Trick]

Is your landlord worried about liability issues, or is it personal/emotional because of his son's accident? If it's a liability issue, you could offer to sign a robust release form that releases him of ANY liability whatsoever pertaining to your horse. If it's a personal thing with him, though, I understand with what he went through.

I'm not seeing things ending well with your horse in the turnout/mixed herd situation, unfortunately.

Well.... the land owner where I live is an older gentleman (88) and is very set in his ways. His son owns the house we rent, and he said it would be hard to convince him due to the horrific accident. Since its so touchy - I don't want to push. We have a beautiful place on this farm, and it would be perfect but it seems the accident is very fresh.

*sigh* what to do! I will offer my landlord a release of liability - if that's what they're concerned with.

[Equilibrium]

I'm with most on this, don't do it. I have a 14 year old gelding that I have to be very careful with company as well. And when I first got him at 9, he was company for my just weaned filly. He did a great job by the way. After that though for whatever reason, he just couldn't deal with mixed company. He's always the boss and is good with horses who are lower than him in that he won't bully them, but he doesn't tolerate annoyances either. So that other horse better understand Frank's rules. If they do great.

It's just not a good idea.

Terri

[Horsegal984]

If I were going to try this move I would put him out in the back 150 acres with the submissive gelding and mares, or ask them if the submissive gelding can go to the pasture with their dominant one so your guy can just be out with mares, until you can save up the money to make him his own pasture. I would also work now on training him to come to a sound, like a cowbell or whistle or something, so that you can easialy call him when he's out there.

I really believe that putting him out with the dominant one and mares is going to be a huge disaster and wrack up large vet bills!

[A Bright Trick]

I'm with most on this, don't do it. I have a 14 year old gelding that I have to be very careful with company as well. And when I first got him at 9, he was company for my just weaned filly. He did a great job by the way. After that though for whatever reason, he just couldn't deal with mixed company. He's always the boss and is good with horses who are lower than him in that he won't bully them, but he doesn't tolerate annoyances either. So that other horse better understand Frank's rules. If they do great.

It's just not a good idea.

Terri

That's what I was aiming for - him learning what buttons to not push with said dominant gelding creating a peaceful herd as long as 2nd gelding respects gelding #1.. BUT that doesn't seem so realistic since he has a stud-mind. And I don't want ongoing fights.

If I were to try it - the back pasture does sound better due to size. I don't know if they would move their geldings.. they keep their riding horses upfront for a reason. And obviously the horses on the 150 are harder to pull up, so if I had to feed him I'd need to track him down. He usually comes when I call. He needs to be moved from his current situation, by next week :(

[tradewind]

I apologize, I misread your original post and thought the horse was at home with you now. I would try to come up with the money to fence him seperately or round pen panels to make a small seperate paddock. Or perhaps they could arrange just mares for your guy.

[A Bright Trick]

I apologize, I misread your original post and thought the horse was at home with you now. I would try to come up with the money to fence him seperately or round pen panels to make a small seperate paddock. Or perhaps they could arrange just mares for your guy.
I will ask them. they may even already have panels. I will let them know I'm concerned. Geez, I used to think pissy mares were hard to deal with!! I got a gelding 'cause I was tired of mare issues...LOL

[jaimebaker]

Do you know anything about his life as a stallion?? That's where I would want my info from. If he was kept by himself, then yeah, there's going to be issues. And potentially deadly ones at that. My own stallion has his own personal gelding/best friend in with him and they've been together for years. Even as mares have come and gone with no issues. So if I was to geld my stallion tomorrow I would have comfort in knowing that he has been in mixed herd situations and dealt with them beautifully. However, that is not the 'normal' life of a stallion. Most are kept by themselves and are neurotic as hell. I'd be backtracking through past owners and finding out his situation before I even considered putting him in with anyone else. Just my .02

[A Bright Trick]

Do you know anything about his life as a stallion?? That's where I would want my info from. If he was kept by himself, then yeah, there's going to be issues. And potentially deadly ones at that. My own stallion has his own personal gelding/best friend in with him and they've been together for years. Even as mares have come and gone with no issues. So if I was to geld my stallion tomorrow I would have comfort in knowing that he has been in mixed herd situations and dealt with them beautifully. However, that is not the 'normal' life of a stallion. Most are kept by themselves and are neurotic as hell. I'd be backtracking through past owners and finding out his situation before I even considered putting him in with anyone else. Just my .02

He was with mares as a stud. I will ask if he was ever with geldings. I trust his original owners info. she's the one I go to for the history! I didn't buy him from her. She has told me he was a super little horse. the reason she sold him was because of how possessive he was of mares and I remember her saying it was difficult at the time. ill see if I can't get more details. I will say its not looking good. :(

[jaimebaker]

He was with mares as a stud. I will ask if he was ever with geldings. I trust his original owners info. she's the one I go to for the history! I didn't buy him from her. She has told me he was a super little horse. the reason she sold him was because of how possessive he was of mares and I remember her saying it was difficult at the time. ill see if I can't get more details. I will say its not looking good. :(

Well, being with mares is a whole 'nuther ballgame than being with geldings or being in a mixed situation. I've even had vets tell me they are astonished with my two since most studs attack geldings. I don't know if I buy that or not, but maybe I've just been lucky. Good luck with the situation!!

[pony89]

My mare is a big flirt, and I worry about her out with multiple geldings. She has been out in a group with two geldings, but they were both very low key and "mind your own business" about the whole thing. She is easy going, friendly, and doesn't make waves, and she seems to attract horses that want to "possess" her. On occassion she'll even have mares fighting over who gets to have her in their group. (the mares give me flashbacks to junior high!) I wouldn't dare put her out with two geldings who are aggressive and/or overly interested in mares.

On the other hand, she is in 2-3 acre pastures with 1-2 other horses at a time. Maybe, possibly, on 150 acres they would just make themselves two little herds and leave each other alone. If, and this is the big if, they didn't kill each other in the process of shaking that out.

[cloudyandcallie]

HOT WIRE. invest in some electrical tape and a solar panel, and fix up a paddock for your horse. You can then gradually try to introduce him to other horses. 3 strands of electrical tape will fix your horse up and he can get used to seeing other horses in the pasture. Our first barn used electrical cord, 2 tiny strands, for paddocks and had a charge in that that could really hurt.

I've been at barns where Cloudy and Callie were thrown out :eek: with herds of some of the roughest and meanest horses ever (and owned by the BOs mosttimes.) Fortunately Callie my mare aways hooked up with a "bad boy" and was protected by him (2x) and Cloudy has on 2 occasions ended up with a mare who bossed him around but protected him from the other horses. (Including an 18.2 mare who beat up all the others except Cloudy).

I've seen mean geldings and mean mares, and mares who beat up geldings and geldings who beat up mares in the same herds.

Right now Cloudy has a wonderful little 14.3 mare who takes care of him, altho our BO is much more cautious with horses than our previous BOs were.

[findeight]

.... I trust his original owners info. she's the one I go to for the history! I didn't buy him from her.


Well, you got two problems with that one. First is I've learned never, ever to 100% trust anything a former owner tells me. Maybe they misremember but I heard way too many "he never did that with me" statements contradicted by well established behavior and the observation of others who saw him do it.
Second is she was not his only owner, not even his most recent one and has nothing to share about what happened when he was owned by others. Except what they told her which is as supect as anything else related by a former owner, then to another and then second or third hand to you.

I'd not put much faith in that kind of information and err on the side of caution. Build him a seperate corral or make other arrangements, save yourself and others a vet bill...or worse.

[meaty ogre]

Build him a seperate corral or make other arrangements, save yourself and others a vet bill...or worse.

Agree with others...buy a charger and some tape and posts and fence off a portion of that 150 acre field. Then add in buddies one at a time, slowly and under direct supervision only after he's had at least a week to meet them over the fence.

If you've got yourself free board at a great facility, it's well worth the work and expenditure up front not to ruin that. A maimed horse is the best way I can think of for things to get real ugly real fast. I'd also talk to the other owners up front and feel out their expectations if someone gets hurt. Typically you are responsible for your own horse's vet bills, but I'd want to make sure they don't expect me to pay for their horse's vet care if someone does get hurt. Always, always better safe than sorry.

[bit-o-honey]

There's no predicting what can happen. I will share a story of seeing the worst case unfold and what happened next....

New boarder brings gelding to boarding facility. BM throws him out in the 40 acre gelding field with no gradual introduction (although the joint paddocks were there to do so). The geldings begin chasing the newcomer - while running away he shatters his knee. As he is a pet and owner is attached, new gelding has surgery, lives at the expensive rehab farm for a few years, has surgery AGAIN, goes back to rehab farm, which then closes down. Horse has to be moved again. The owner went bankrupt and credit is ruined.

Use good judgement and protect your horse and the others. If you want to try a gradual introduction, your gelding will need to be SAFELY separate at first. How much are you willing to risk? The situation could go from ideal to a nightmare in a moment.

Most people would consider your horse to be high-risk by virtue of being a stallion for so long. He also has a history of being aggressive. If you take this risk be prepared for the worst case, for you, your horse, or someone else and their horse.

[esdressage]

I saw a few posts about panels to keep him apart from the other horses in the pasture; I'm assuming you mean the movable, metal panels. Panels are not a good solution IMO to separate him from the others. Horses can get seriously hurt breaking through fencing that just isn't secure, and then on top of that you have to deal with the aftermath of him being in the herd you were trying to separate him from in the first place.

While I understand he's a gelding, it's been established that by being gelded so late he still has some of those stallion, aggressive tendencies. Lots of people fence stallions in with extra-tall, heavy-duty, double fencing. I'd suggest doing something secure and safe, and certainly not panels.

[Chief2]

If you decide to try the group turnout, go for the 150 acres out in the back after the gradual introduction is complete. There will be plenty of room for whoever is being picked on to escape without anyone getting badly injured when the inevitable clashes over the mares , and in some instances with the mares, begin. That should hold down the injuries.

As for your boy being busy with the mares, many geldings who were never stallions past the age of 4 months get busy with the mares, so yours may well surprise you. If not, count your blessings. If he reverts to type, expect him to do a lot of chasing off of the gelding, possibly with physical repercussions, and herd up a band of his own mares. That's where the mare problems begin, because the lead mare decides which mares are in and which are out, and things can get sticky. Once he gets his own band, things out in the pasture will settle down, but not before. If there are enough mares, the boys may well end up splitting the herd between themselves. If not, the timid gelding will chased out and then left on his own outside of the herd. Biting and kicking usually accompany the chasing. Those are the dynamics you are looking at.

Good luck with your horse.

[tbracer65]

I can see it being DEADLY.

Please be careful. Is it still going to be free if your horse runs another through a fence?

I COMPLETELY agree with this one --- make sure up front if you are going to move your horse there (which it sounds like it's your only option & are going to do it no matter...) that they understand up front that YOUR horse might be the one hurting one of THEIR horses & see how the expenses are going to fall or if worse case scenario one of theirs has to be put down. Seems like they're not worried about your gelding as they know their guy is aggressive.

We had a horse like this about 10 yrs. ago come into our farm for boarding. We weren't told the horse was a stud for a long time before being gelded (even though I don't think that had much to do with it---he was just a "mean" horse in turnout) -- but we slowly introduced him by adjoining wood paddocks (him by himself being able to meet the neighbors) --- NO MARES -- we separate ours into small groups. Once turned out with the small group, this gelding would pick out the weakest in the field & run them to no end....there was NO stopping him until he ran the horse through the wood fence. They tried one more time to introduce him minus the horse he ran through the fence (moved him to another group) & he did it again...just picked out another one. I still to this day have never seen a horse like this guy was -- it was a game to him & he never got tired.... He was on solitary turnout after that....he actually was a kids western pleasure walk/trot horse, so it's not like he was 'mean-natured'.....

Definitely don't try & keep your guy separate by electric fencing --- just another disaster on top of the original. Panels also a no-no...could play with the others & on a rear or kick get his foot hung up & break a leg (him or the OTHER horse). Could happen with wood, too, but wood has a better chance of breaking than metal & also harder to get a leg through (guess depending on the farm...ours had small openings)

Yes, everything **could** go fine -- but I'd say there's maybe a 1% chance of it going that way --- considering there's mares in the equation.... GOOD LUCK!!

[Huntertwo]

Every horse is different. I've been at barn where geldings and mares shared the same pasture and had no problems.

BUT, at one time a studdy gelding was in the same pasture and would attack any other gelding. Didn't even need to have a mare in the direct vicinity to do it either.

With mares this horse was terrible to the other geldings and would attack even more aggressively.

I think every situation is different.

[tveley]

I would be VERY cautious. I have an almost 30 year old gelding here that I have kept for the past 21 years for a friend of mine. He is just about the only male horse I have had for any length of time for many years, as I truly love mares, but this is also because he once killed a little 18 month old Egyption Arab gelding I had bought to train for my kids to ride eventually (a much better size for kids than my large warmbloods).

The poor little horse was NOT turned out with the older gelding, he was in a separate field with my kids' pony. The older gelding was in the pasture with my 4 mares (apparently he considered them to be his harem). He had always been very docile and never showed ANY aggression to people or to any of my mares or the pony gelding, but 4 days (just long enough for the check to clear the bank) after the little Arab arrived, while I was gone from the property for 2 hours to attend a program at my son's school, he broke through 2 fences to get to to the new younger horse and bit and kicked the poor little guy until he had shattered his shoulder. He then just calmly grazed next to the severely injured colt until I returned home and discovered the situation.

The colt had to be destroyed. My friend felt really terrible, paid the vet bill and offered to move her horse immediately, but that would not bring the Arab back. Neither one of us had any idea something like that would happen. After all he had been boarded for years without any problem with other geldings before he came to stay at my place.

The gelding is still here, now blind, but he still is protective of the little band of geriatic mares he is turned out with. I have never again allowed another gelding to live here. He is a perfect gentleman, fine with all mares, other geldings too, IF he is being ridden, as well as great with people including children and dogs or cats, but I have NO doubt if he could find it, he would still attack and attempt to kill any gelding he was turned out with.