Well thankfully horse passed neuro test, UPDATED FARRIER CAME TODAY..more ?, page 2

[dalpal]

I guess I can stop having stress dreams for now.

This is an update on my mare from two previous threads.

Vet did the neuro test on her today and she passed with flying colors.

Back to blocks we went.....once we blocked the back right foot, she went 100 percent sound.

Next we xrayed, COMPLETELY CLEAN, vet thought they were impeccably clean.

He did feel like she has thin soles (she's half TB) and has suggested padding her.

He thinks that we have a possibly strained, pulled ligament and suggested having wedges put on in the back.

The strained ligament does make sense to me.....she's built straight behind and now we have started asking to her to use her rearend more. I'm wondering if she just hyperextended a ligament.

he'll give me a copy of the xrays for my farrier to look at. So right now we are going to go ahead and do any necessary shoeing changes and give her 30 days off to rest.

EqT and others, any thoughts or suggestions for therapy?

[Lieslot]

I'm curious what some farrier opinions are on the wedging of the hinds.
I do not doubt your vet, but what about first trying an egg barshoe behind to offer support rather then immediately wedging.

Wedging the hinds can be quite tricky and cause even worse problems then the ones one started with.
Personally I'd hold off on wedging hinds, unless there's a very visible unbalance that needs to be addressed (say like bullnose, collapsed heels etc), other then that an eggbar on the hinds can be supportive towards tendons/ligaments too without the immediate raise.

Adding a pad or equithane behind is definitely a good idea to try and won't harm.

Just my thoughts however ;). I'm sure EqT & Rick and others will have something to suggest about that too.

[dalpal]

I'm not too worried...I have a fantastic farrier (thanks to EqT) and I'm sure he'll make the right call with the xrays.

Vet said that Eggbar shoes would not be the answer as they would put even more pressure in that area, he wants pressure off, which is why he suggested wedges.

I do think the feet belong to the farrier.:lol: That's why I want him to look at the xrays and make HIS suggestions.

She is such a sweet girl, even the vet commented on her demeanor. She just put each foot up on the block and stood still until they snapped the film...she has such a "whatever" personality...I do love her to pieces. :lol:

[Lieslot]

Okay, fab, sounds like you are in great hands. :).
Good luck, sorry no other ideas to help.

[BumbleBee]

I too would love to hear farrier opinion on this maybe add hoof to the title to get their attention.

Does the vet say what ligament it is?

We have one in our barn that has strained the collateral ligament on both sides of the pastern joint. Horse is barefoot but I wondered if shoeing to place breakover straight at the toe would help protect the ligaments from hyper-extending again.

I don't really get the wedge thing unless vet thought it was a flexor tendon issue but I am still learning so what do I know.:lol:

[dalpal]

I'll change it.

We don't know for sure...just know that it is soft tissue. She isn't insured, so I am opting for 30 days rest right now over the Bone Scan/MRI.

He was just guessing on possible pulled Ligament.

[Simkie]

Ugh. Soft tissue injuries in the foot are notoriously difficult to deal with. Good luck. I've euthanized a horse due to this.

[dalpal]

Ugh. Soft tissue injuries in the foot are notoriously difficult to deal with. Good luck. I've euthanized a horse due to this.

I would never euthanize her for this....if she can't work that's fine. Vet didn't act as if this was anything castrophic....just felt like some shoeing changes would help her.

[BumbleBee]

bump

[Simkie]

I would never euthanize her for this....if she can't work that's fine. Vet didn't act as if this was anything castrophic....just felt like some shoeing changes would help her.

My horse cycled in and out of three legged lame. This was before MRI was really used in equines, so we never knew exactly what was wrong--just that it was soft tissue somewhere in the foot. It would have been cruel to not euthanize. I sincerely hope your horse never gets to the point where you're faced with that decision. And, if your luck is anything like mine, I'd be very careful how you use that word "never"...tempting fate and all...

[Patty Stiller]

If the horse has negative palmer angles on the coffin bones of the hind feet ,it can cause a plethora of vague back end problems and overall performance issues. Improper medial lateral hoof balance can also cause the same. Besides compensatory back problems, inflamed / injured impar ligaments and injured suspensory ligaments of the navicular bone are a common result.
Wedging (correcting the NPA) is part of the treatment for these issues.

Were radiographs taken and set up specifically to assess the coffin joint alignment and INTERNAL medial lateral balance of the hind feet?
A radiographic diagnosis of "clean" means there as no visible joint damage. It does not necessarily mean that there is proper bone ALIGNMENT. So if bone alignment and balance has not been assessed I would strongly urge that be done.
Wedging hind feet is not at all "tricky". If the coffin joints are not aligned, and need wedging, then wedge them.
And negative palmer angles especially in hind feet is a VERY common issue and too often overlooked as a root cause of other pathologies.

[dalpal]

My horse cycled in and out of three legged lame. This was before MRI was really used in equines, so were never knew exactly what was wrong--just that it was soft tissue somewhere in the foot. It would have been cruel to not euthanize. I sincerely hope your horse never gets to the point where you're faced with that decision. And, if your luck is anything like mine, I'd be very careful how you use that word "never"...tempting fate and all...


Simike...I'm not trying to be snarky. We are nowhere near making a decision like that. She's off at the trot, she's off at the canter...she's not three legged lame, dragging herself around in agony. She can't work right now....I've had a very stressful week already, so I am looking for some ideas on what can help her....if, godforbid, she ever gets three legged lame, not pasture sound....then of course I would put her out of her misery. But right now, we are looking at a horse who will hopefully be going back into work in a month or so. I'm not going to put her in the grave just yet.

[Simkie]

Simike...I'm not trying to be snarky. We are nowhere near making a decision like that. She's off at the trot, she's off at the canter...she's not three legged lame, dragging herself around in agony. She can't work right now....I've had a very stressful week already, so I am looking for some ideas on what can help her....if, godforbid, she ever gets three legged lame, not pasture sound....then of course I would put her out of her misery. But right now, we are looking at a horse who will hopefully be going back into work in a month or so. I'm not going to put her in the grave just yet.

And I'm certainly not saying you would.

I was simply sharing my experiences with soft tissue damage in the foot. Which is what I thought this BB was all about.

If you only wanted positive feedback, perhaps you should have stated in your initial post?

[dalpal]

And I'm certainly not saying you would.

I was simply sharing my experiences with soft tissue damage in the foot. Which is what I thought this BB was all about.

If you only wanted positive feedback, perhaps you should have stated in your initial post?

Okay..fair enough. I am looking for thoughts on ways we can rehab her and help her. Moving on now.

[dalpal]

Patty...I PM'd you

[Secretariat2]

Well thank goodness for the great neuro test and films first of all :) I hope it is something that can be fixed with some different shoeing and some rest. I also give her some RecoveryEQ. I've had great results with rapid healing using it.

[grayarabpony]

How were her coffin bone angles?

[Lieslot]

Well I guess "tricky" may not have been the right word.

Neg P3 does indeed need to be addressed by wedging, but the % wedging has to be very correct and is not the right answer for all horses.
Hence I suggested a really good farrier is needed to decide what to do here, perhaps more so then a vet.

If one doesn't now for sure which tendon or ligament is affected I wouldn't immediately jump to wedges, but if you have a clear picture of a neg P3, then it's something to pursue.

We had to toss with the idea on my horse too with a previous 0% P3, so far my farrier managed to make a great correction on the angles without wedging (took more then a year). The size & weight of my horse was just not suitable for wedging regardless of the bad bullsnose aspect he had.

But since we don't know precisely the angles, nor the exact injury of the OP's horse, hence I thought it was "tricky" to jump to wedges that quickly. :)

[purplnurpl]

Right now just have the shoeing done. Wait up to two months before the MR.
I'd say if she's still off after two months then it's going to take some time. like 6-8 months.

Now that we have fantastic imaging equipment such as MRI all of these theories of navicular syndrome have often shown to be deep bone bruising and NOT navicular issues.

My horse ended up with an extreme case and a lil bit of everything. Mostly bone bruising but I'm sure there was soft tissue damage and that is what I'm dealing with now. It's been 10 months for me but 7/8 of them were waiting around for a good amount of bone remodeling. When I started riding him he was on/off for about a week.

Good luck
I'm sure she'll be fine.
Just don't get in a hurry.

Insurance, insurance is a good thing for cases such as this. Don't you just wish you could have the MR done right now? Great American paid for every cent of my horse's MR.

[dalpal]

Purpln...tell that to my husband......I am kicking myself because it was HE, who convinced me, not to waste my money on insurance. SIGH. Hindsight is 20/20 right?

That is great advice. I actually emailed the films to Patty, who has been gracious enough to look at them and give me her thoughts as well.

As I was telling her, I am in agreement with the bruise/sole issue. She agreed that the soles were very thin. So I am going to have the farrier hoof test her first when I get him out to the farm.

When we did the lameness exam....we did do it in the parking lot, he wanted to see it on an unforgiving surface. I will say that she was never unsound under saddle, just stiff and wanting to travel haunches in to the right when rounding a corner.

I do want to use the KISS method right now and start with shoeing. I think your timeline is excellent advice.

As I was telling Patty, I am really frustrated because my gelding has not wanted to pick up the right lead canter all week (different horse)...We have had 5 days of steady rains in the past week, so I was assuming abcess. I got lucky when one of the other barn farriers came in to put a shoe on for someone.....I had him look at him. He couldn't find evidence of any abcess (although one could be brewing/this horse is prone to abcesses)....but said that both his back feet were very soft and very sensititive. He recommended Keratox or Turpentine. I have been putting Keratox on him daily since Friday, he is better (ie I don't feel like my back will break when he canters), but still reluctant to pick it up. He is 100 percent sound at the trot and is sound at the canter once he goes into it...but doesn't want to pick it up. Is it a coinicidence that BOTH horses are having feet issues at the same time????????????????? I am so totally frustrated right now. The gelding is a TB, we do have him padded and gelled in the front....I'm wondering if I need to pad him all the way around. OR could we be dealing with laminitis? To my knowledage neither are prone to it, but it is spring. Barn set up.....My horses go out at night, but other horses have been in that paddock during the day, so even though there is grass, it isn't lush by any means.

UGH, so many questions.

Oh and I will look into the Recovery. Is there any reason NOT to use it? I remember reading about it on another thread.....isn't there a reason you can't use it on some horses???

[Simkie]

If you continue to have issues following changing the shoeing, injecting the coffin joint might be useful.

[dalpal]

If you continue to have issues following changing the shoeing, injecting the coffin joint might be useful.

Yep, one of my friends has been down this road and she told me the same thing today. She uses the same vet. She told me that time off comes first to see if that will solve the problem and if not, then injections are something to consider. Let me see if I remember this correctly. You don't want to risk trying the injection first because you could actually put a hole in a ligament/tendon if there is damage there....but if you suspect/know it is inflammation, then the injection will help. She ended up doing the injection after 9 months of resting her horse and viola, he went sound.

[Simkie]

You don't want to risk trying the injection first because you could actually put a hole in a ligament/tendon if there is damage there....but if you suspect/know it is inflammation, then the injection will help. She ended up doing the injection after 9 months of resting her horse and viola, he went sound.

Hmmm...not how I've seen the injection done. I've seen the vet put the needle in a fingers' width off the mid line of the coronary band. I don't think there's any soft tissue there to hit. The needle goes straight down into the coffin joint. Perhaps there's another way of getting there that might compromise some soft tissue.

But, as with anything else, start with least invasive and move up from there. Joint injections certainly do carry some risk, and often need to be repeated at regular intervals. Injecting the coffin joint kept my horse comfortable (not quite SOUND) for about 3 months.

I wonder if Adequan or Legend may help with your horse? It was not something we explored with mine, but might be worth asking your vet about?

[dalpal]

Hmmm...not how I've seen the injection done. I've seen the vet put the needle in a fingers' width off the mid line of the coronary band. I don't think there's any soft tissue there to hit. The needle goes straight down into the coffin joint. Perhaps there's another way of getting there that might compromise some soft tissue.

But, as with anything else, start with least invasive and move up from there. Joint injections certainly do carry some risk, and often need to be repeated at regular intervals. Injecting the coffin joint kept my horse comfortable (not quite SOUND) for about 3 months.

I wonder if Adequan or Legend may help with your horse? It was not something we explored with mine, but might be worth asking your vet about?


Oh I've asked about Legend over and over again over the years for the stiffness and kept hearing...."It's not designed to do anything for that"

Once I get this big bill paid, I think I will start her on some adequan and see if that will help her. I love Legend, if I had a bottomless bank account, they would both get that regularly. I did try her on Lubrisyn.....did nothing. Helped the gelding, but didn't do anything for her.

[dalpal]

Okay my wonderful farrier came out today.

Out of all the horse healthcare professionals in my life, I trust him more than anyone...he's knowledagable and honest.....I wanted to update this as I have some new questions and I know BumbleBee was interested.

He looked at the xrays, unfortantely he couldn't use them because the pics didn't show the horse bearing weight on her heel....she had her foot cocked during the shoot. So, that went out the window.

He hoof tested her and found nothing exciting. He said we could do the wedge pads...but they weren't really going to help her....turning her out for 30 days with/without wedges would not make a difference. And he also pointed out that if she didn't use those ligaments..."You lose what you don't use"...so his suggestion there was KISS. I agreed.

I can't remember if I mentioned in my OP that we did the lameness exam on pavement....he questioned why and wasn't sure why we didn't put her on normal footing....BUT, I understand the vet's view there....it will show up for sure on an unforgiving surface. Would lunging her for a lameness exam in normal footing been better? I will say this is the first time I've been asked to lunge on pavement...but at the same time, I could see the vet's thought process.

Now the horse did block sound when we blocked the hoof...BUT, he pointed out to me...."Her entire Right hindquarter is sore....her hocks, her hips...he took a pen and drew over her hips (Now we are talking STOIC mare)...she sunk to the floor....did it on the left side..no reaction. So I asked him...why would she block on the foot if it was something else....he said, he didn't know...but was just showing me that there was more in this picture.

Now, can I run a thought theory by you guys.....Can I play Junior Vet for a moment. :lol: My farrier was the one who discovered this to begin with and he thought hocks. When the vet came out, he thought hocks until she didn't block sound on hocks.....BUT (okay, bare with me), could it really be the hocks and she is so painful everywhere else that she is now more painful in other areas because she has carried herself in a manner that has created the other problem???? The reason I am curious....when the vet injected her hock wtih the blocking fluid, he noted that it was very difficult to get the fluid into the hock...thus, he really felt we were going to have our answer...but we didn't. I know we ruled them out wtih blocks....but could they actually be the real culprit?

Now on my gelding, we did pad the back, put gel in and he gave hiim a 2 degree wedge. God, please, let this be the answer for him. He said that my 19 year old's hocks (of course they were injected 2 months ago) felt better than my young horse's hocks.

Thoughts?

[Simkie]

My vet expressly said that putting the block into the joint does not actually block the whole hock. She used a peroneal tibial block (I think that's it?) that blocks the hock and everything below the hock.

My vets have always started at the ground when blocking and gone up the limb.

[dwblover]

I don't have too much to offer, except for the part about the lungeing. My warmblood has navicular, so lameness exam lungeing is our specialty:(. Anyway, my vet also has me lunge the horse on pavement because as you stated, she wants to see him on a completely non-yielding surface. But she also has me lunge him in the arena on softer footing. She said looking at their reaction on both hard/soft surfaces can give you a better picture of their lameness. Apparently more boney invovlement will seem worse on pavement, better on softer footing. And soft tissue, ligaments, tendons will seem better on pavement and worse on soft surfaces. Hope you find an answer. Don't you wish they could just talk?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dalpal]

I don't have too much to offer, except for the part about the lungeing. My warmblood has navicular, so lameness exam lungeing is our specialty:(. Anyway, my vet also has me lunge the horse on pavement because as you stated, she wants to see him on a completely non-yielding surface. But she also has me lunge him in the arena on softer footing. She said looking at their reaction on both hard/soft surfaces can give you a better picture of their lameness. Apparently more boney invovlement will seem worse on pavement, better on softer footing. And soft tissue, ligaments, tendons will seem better on pavement and worse on soft surfaces. Hope you find an answer. Don't you wish they could just talk?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT is very interesting...thank you for sharing that. With that theory, it would be boney..because she was never this lame in the arena...just stiff.

Simikie...Good point! We started from top and went to bottom....I still wonder if this is a hock issue...not saying the foot isn't affected, but that the hock is the actual cause.

[dalpal]

Lunged horse today in arena....100 percent sound both ways on that surface.