Any Diet Change Success Stories for Hot Horses? Update/Questions on last page [Archive]

manyspots

Mar. 23, 2009, 04:43 PM

I have been posting on COTH for a few months now, and I have talked about my Appy gelding in the past. Things for me are finally coming to a head... Please, I would appreciate not getting flamed because I am actually holding the torch to myself. Not sure why, but I feel guilty anyway.

LONG STORY SHORT. Gelding is an 8 y.o. papered Appaloosa with good breeding. 15.3, goes about 1200 lbs. I bought him as a three year old. Originally shown as a 2-4 year old as a halter horse. Broke under saddle as a four year old, has been used for pleasure riding since.

MAJOR ISSUES:
Extremely explosive... flight mode to the extreme. He does not think before he reacts. He blocks anyone out and will thrash, scramble, freak to get away from whatever it is that gets to him. The trigger is different every day and almost everytime. He will also be fine for weeks at a time, then have four bad days. To put it in perspective, we have tried EVERYTHING from calming supps, diet changes, physical check by vet (happened today, including eyes), etc. Training, sacking out, having someone else work with him. Nothing changes the outcome. I am afraid at some point, this flight reaction is going to lead to life ending injury for him.

Vet's last ditch suggestion was to take him off his current diet of beep/alf pellets and start with small amounts of Trotter (Blue Seal). He told me honestly, he doesn't think much will change this horse. He thinks the diet change is a last ditch effort.

This is not my first horse (have had many/schooled/worked with many) in my 25 years in the horse world. I am open minded, don't mind taking responsibility, etc.

Any success stories on actually changing diet? Otherwise? Or will this just end in him being given away, shipped to auction, or dare I say otherwise? I need a good cry right now. :(

deltawave

Mar. 23, 2009, 04:47 PM

To answer your question specifically, no, I have never noticed a change in my horses' demeanor/temperament/behavior, ever, due to changes in feed. They are who they are and always seem to be, no matter what I feed them.

That said, I keep mine outside as much as possible and they mostly eat hay. :) But even when I used to board and the horses were fed all manner of unfashionable things like sweet feed and oats, I never noticed a change in behavior I could attribute to food. Turnout? Yes indeed. Food? No. Never. Really.

Maybe I've been lucky or am unobservant, but I don't think that's it. I've had hot horses, spooky horses, phlegmatic ones, quiet ones, normal ones--a little of everything. When they're spooky, my conclusion has always been it's because that's the way they're hard-wired. Only thing that ever seems to help (I've tried every calming supplement, too) was more turnout, more exercise, maybe fewer CALORIES but not what kind of grain.

dmj

Mar. 23, 2009, 04:55 PM

sorry to hear you are having these issues...were it my horse he would simply be eating orchard or timothy hay - free choice. Nothing else added. And more exercise.

manyspots

Mar. 23, 2009, 04:56 PM

To add... very important point is he is out 24/7 year round. Worked 3-5 days a week except during nasty months in New Hampshire. And local grass hay is all I get.

Cherry

Mar. 23, 2009, 05:08 PM

I had a Thoroughbred mare who would just lose her mind if I tried feeding her even small amounts of oats or alfalfa. As long as I kept her on forage type products (chopped hay, beet pulp, unlimited long stem grass hay) and a ration balancer pellet with a small amount of fat added (less than one cup) she was fine. :uhoh:

You might try adding a product called Equinime to his diet. It's got magnesium, calcium, B-vitamins and some amino acids that are supposed to relax a horse.

deltawave

Mar. 23, 2009, 05:09 PM

If your nasty months are just ending, like ours are, maybe he's just having a bit of the Springtime Stupids? Even my old, quiet event mare was running around (and she really can't run all that well any more) with her silly tail in the air yesterday. Lots of blowing and snorting and high-drama type stuff going on.

Might be the young horse needs a tougher job, like 2-3 hours of work every day. Easy? No. Better than the alternative? Maybe.

manyspots

Mar. 23, 2009, 05:10 PM

Cherry-did you ever hear of beet pulp having too many carbs? That was new to me, but that was one of the things vet pointed out... accurate or no? I really love feeding the beet pulp and will continue to mash his food regardless of what it is...

Thank you for the Equinime suggestion....

buck22

Mar. 23, 2009, 05:53 PM

changing my horse's diet was extremely helpful, and really, basically, saved his life. He was exactly as you describe your horse, flight instinct in hyper drive. Though, oddly, my horse wasn't hot, he was just extremely overreactive if that makes sense... when he wasn't busy sh!tting himself blind in panic over a leaf that decided to tumble the wrong way:lol:, he was actually very interested in being mellow. He wanted to relax, just couldn't. It was odd. But his panic included going through fences, over people and other horses, he was just simply dangerous to be around at points, and a danger to himself.

My horse is IR, though not particularly fat or cresty, etc. He gets no treats (a well placed scratch suffices), he gets r/s/r beet pulp, minimum amount of ration balancer for his size/workload, free choice hay that is fairly low nsc, salt, MagOx, half dose of uckele's GUT, flax oil and cocosoya oil.

What helped most of all was treating him as if he had ulcers. I don't know for a fact if he had ulcers, and if he did have them, I don't know for a fact if they're gone :lol:, but the extreme hypersensitivity (he used to tremble in a light rain because the rain drops on his coat would tickle him and drive him mad.... poor dude was HYPER), after MONTHS of training and sacking out and training again, the notion that hypersensitivity was a possible symptom of ulcers was good enough for me to pursue. :lol: A kind person turned me on to an off-beat product, that I feel was successful.

My horse was on a regular diet of 10/10 (whatever the b/m was feeding that week) living out 24/7 with free choice hay and he was Satan's Steed, and gnawing the place to pieces. I then moved my horse, living indoors 12 hours per day, and put him on BP and RB with no additives for about 8 months and saw improvement, he was dealable, but only just, and he chambered his teeth in frustration at being stalled. I then moved my horse yet again, living out again 24/7, added the amendments to the diet I mentioned, 24hr hay, and he's a rideable enjoyable horse (bordering "dud" at this point :lol:) for the very first time in his 10 years on this planet (previous owner very nearly wrote him off as dog-food because of his chronic hyperness).

So, thats my story... doesn't necessarily mean it will help you though :).... diet saved my horse, but possibly also ulcers, so I tend to get on that bandwagon a good deal only because it may have been the reason we finally turned a corner.... and well, until proven otherwise I'm happy to believe it.

Hope there is something useful there. Good luck.

ZiggyStardust

Mar. 23, 2009, 06:12 PM

3-5 days work a week may not be enough to burn off the BP/pellets. He may just need hay, a token amount of pellets or some flax or BOSS to help him keep on weight without so many calories. I have run the gamut like this with my horse. He had pain issues that have finally been resolved with treatment and maintenance, but his fear of the pain was making him act out, which became habitual. He thrives on a schedule, so we made other changes, too, but part of it was eliminating his BP. Now he gets as much hay as he will eat, token alfalfa pellets, and BOSS and flax to keep his weight steady.

You may want to have a vet who does chiro evaluate him, too.

I have heard multiple opinions on how many carbs BP has. My understanding was that the sugar is removed during processing (that's why they process it, right?), but it is still fairly high in digestible energy. It was helpful for my horse when I could not keep weight on him, but that was due more to environmental stress than his actual calorie intake.

manyspots

Mar. 23, 2009, 06:13 PM

manyspots

Mar. 23, 2009, 06:17 PM

ZiggyStardust- that was pretty much what my vet was describing about the beet pulp and digestible energy. I also suspect that if I get the nerves under control, he won't NEED all the carbs/calories/etc. I read/hear so much good about BP but this issue is really making me see that it isn't always the perfect food choice.

dwblover

Mar. 23, 2009, 08:48 PM

I hope the feed change may help, but honestly some horses are just incredibly anxious by nature. My warmblood is one of them. Not to the extent of what you are describing, but he has a nasty spook undersaddle and is very reactive to wind, noise, people, other horses, the list goes on and on. He is out 24/7, gets no grain, just a vit/min supplement. Have run the Olympics of vet testing on him hoping and wishing for some problem to blame it all on. Nothing ever turns up. I think just like people, some are perhaps just wired wrong. I also have a just turned six year old OTTB who is MELLOW. TB gets 7 lbs. per day of a senior feed vs. the O lbs my warmblood gets. TB is six vs. the 14 year old warmblood. Yet the TB is so quiet, pretty much ignores everything, very loving and just secure in his own skin. If it's windy, any type of work going on at the farm, or trail riding I definitely tack up my TB. I think it's in his DNA, honestly.

Jenn2674

Mar. 23, 2009, 09:14 PM

yes some horses are just that way. it might be worth playing with the feed just to be sure though. My friend's OTTB is that way. Undersaddle he actually isn't too bad but out in the pasture he cribs, he weaves, he'll just all of a sudden take off across the pasture several times a day. Now undersaddle he does have some tenseness but not nearly what you would think if you saw him on in the pasture. That is what causes us to think it isn't a pain issue or a nervousness issue, he's just a hot horse!

DLee

Mar. 23, 2009, 09:17 PM

I think I have begun to see positive changes in my ISH 3yo filly due to my diet changes. Pellets cut down to a minimum, alfalfa hay cut WAY back to pretty much grass hay. All my TB's... totally fine on the former diet, it's just her that seems nuts. She was as some describe, hypersensitive, super spooky (even in the field), just WEIRD. I think diet is a huge thing. Good luck!

florida foxhunter

Mar. 23, 2009, 09:26 PM

I just spoke to the nutritionist who developed Tribute Feeds........after he worked for Buckeye for years! He explained "carbs" (Sugar and starch) to me!! Tribute has a feed called "Kalm 'n EZ that is only 14% Carbs.......many others are considered "low carbs" at 20-22%.....and others go up from there.
Feed companies never advertise the starch "Numbers"........but I thought I'd give you a 'baseline" of what is really "low"........
He said that way too much protien (like Alfalfa) can be turned into sugar......and also commented that pellets often have less sugar than textured feeds............
It was a very interesting and helpful conversation. Corn is also an "energy starch"
I'm trying their feed for a TB who's been foxhunting once to often......and is often a nervous ninny!!
Good luck to you~!

nlk

Mar. 23, 2009, 09:30 PM

Don't know if I am repeating anybody here... But I know of two very specific cases of allergy to corn. The horses were absolute flakes! One was a Hanoverian the other was a Standardbred.

Now the Hanovierian had no weight issues was just crazy, after we changed from sweet feed (which I am not a fan of) to SR. (has barely any corn in it) he was a totally different sellable horse.

The Standardbred wouldn't put weight on and was loopy.

Now I realize that there is no possibility of a corn allergy with beet pulp and alfalfa pellets (although check to be sure) and I have no idea what the Trotter stuff is. However he could be allergic to something else that is a common denominator (start doing research:D)

Also I have had a very high strung Quarter Horse (and several TBs!) that I changed from Sweet feed to pellets and got tremendous results

Good luck

Gayla

Mar. 23, 2009, 09:34 PM

The trainer at a barn I used to board at used to say "they stop all that crap after the 5th mile" :lol::lol: She just worked the crap out of horses until they found their spot in life. It seemed to work for her. She is a CCI* eventer...naturally. But seriously, if there is nothing wrong with him he may enjoy a more active life. Some horses really need a lot of exercise to feel sane. She just took them out to gallop.

buck22

Mar. 23, 2009, 09:36 PM

buck22-
You just described my life to a T. He is FRANTIC when he does explode. Your description of your reaction to rain drops is much like him only it is whatever the flavor of the day may be.... I once had him climb over a gate because someone was moving a mattress into a house 300 feet away from his paddock. Just FRANTIC.
sigh. yep, if the neighbor down the road took the trash out, it was world war three. He would flip out over things happening 100-200 yards away, stuff I could barely see. And he just could never come to terms with it, it was a new spook a new booger every day. I can't tell you how many times I nearly ended up with a broken neck because an acorn rolled across pavement, or a leaf fluttered noisily. G-d forbid a horse in the distance should holler, or someone should go get the mail or fold a towel or something ghastly..... It just ceased to make sense after a while.

The 24/7 had helped some... I also had to deal with the "whatever BM was feeding" issue, but once I moved him home, he was on the beet/alf pellets as a suggestion by a friend. I had to add Rice Bran over the winter to help him maintain wieght. I am sure that may not be helping?
my horse is an easy keeper so I can't help you there. I feed a small amount of bp for roughage, it was heaven-sent in the winter time keeping the horses hydrated. My horses eat so little hard feed, they're only fed once per day, they have hay at all times though.

Treating him like he has uclers brings up an interesting point... Vet was adamant he didn't think so, but at this point anything is worth a shot for me.
Yeah, everyone thought i was nuts when I brought up the possibility of ulcers. He was barely in work, never left the farm or competed, etc, lived on a farm for 6 years prior just turned out, he had no *stress*. His coat was good, he was vigorous with a great appetite, he wasn't an ulcer poster child. But I was growing desperate because it just seemed like no amount of training could help him so it had to be something else. In trying to understand nutrition, it ulcers were casually suggested, I read up more and found that hypersensitivity is indeed a symptom, just not typical. I have no proof, I never scoped him before or after, but I feel certain there was something there.

It's nice to know I am not alone. I feel SOOOO alone. No one else I know with horses seems to know exactly what I am going through and EVERYONE seems to know what to do with my horse, but nothing has panned out yet.
you're not alone, but I know what you mean. Everyone told me to put my monster horse down or just sedate him and send him to auction.. he was impossible, dangerous and just exhausting to be around.... everyone just thought he was a wingnut wacko. Its been a while now, 2 years next week I've had him, and my new b/m was just telling me yesterday how lovely and loving a horse he is :lol: how she's so impressed by a horse that is so personable, so lovely to be around, so laid back and so engaged with people :lol: a new boarder friend noted how calm and brave he is on the trails to ride :lol: I nearly fell off I was laughing so hard.

good luck.

Altamont Sport Horses

Mar. 23, 2009, 10:03 PM

If it is dietary I would think that cutting the sugar and starch as low as possible and withholding anything that is known to make some horses hyper (alfalfa, corn, etc.) would help. I personally have seen magnesium supplementation make the biggest difference. And I'm not talking about the combined ingredient calming supplements but just straight up magnesium oxide.

But since your guy is an appaloosa I still have to wonder about his eyes. Do you have any photos of your horse that you can share?

ddashaq

Mar. 23, 2009, 10:18 PM

My horse has always been rather spooky and looky, but last year I moved him to a barn that fed Nutrena XTN. He became an absolute beast, completely hyperactive and totally unable to focus. OUr rides became 45 minutes of forward trot just to get him "down" to a point where he would actually work. After about a month of trying to figure out what the issue was, I took him off the XTN and switched him to Strategy. It took about 3 weeks, but the change was incredible. He returned to his sane, if slightly spooky self and has been fine ever since.

Have you had an actual ophthamologist look at his eyes? I knew a horse with severe, explosive, unexplainable spooking, bucking, and bolting who turned out to have uveitis. It was missed by three previous vets and by the time it was diagnosed, both optic nerves were involved. It explained most of the horse's behavior.

decorum

Mar. 23, 2009, 10:39 PM

A friend of mine has a horse that has symptoms similar to your horse but not that extreme. He freaks over things off in the distance all the time and recently dumped her because of a massive, bolting, bucking spook. The next ride she did he took off bucking for no reason. He does have uveitis and I think he is weird because he can't see, my friend thinks he is weird because "he has such good eyesight and sees too much". I kid you not. The horse has been diagnosed with uveitis and she thinks that.

My own horse has become seriously wacked with a sup called NW Supplement, too many apples and one particular bag of BP. Normally he is almost comatose.

I wish you luck in finding what is wrong.

Fiat Lux

Mar. 23, 2009, 10:46 PM

My TB absolutely CANNOT have ANY alfalfa or he's crazy. I know studies say it isn't true, but take my guy off alfalfa and he's sane as can be.
I wish you the best...

Fiat Lux

Mar. 23, 2009, 10:53 PM

I also want to add that if I were you, I would treat for ulcers -- do a full tube of ulcergard or gastrogard per day for 28 days, then 1/2 tube daily for at least 28 days. No one thought my guy had ulcers, either -- he was turned out 24/7 with free choice hay and in little to no work. But he was a totally different horse within two weeks of beginning ulcer treatment. Yes, it's expensive, but it sounds like you have a problem that hasn't been dealt with yet.
Just my two cents :)

meaty ogre

Mar. 23, 2009, 10:59 PM

The trigger is different every day and almost everytime.[/B] He will also be fine for weeks at a time, then have four bad days. To put it in perspective, we have tried EVERYTHING from calming supps, diet changes, physical check by vet (happened today, including eyes), etc. Training, sacking out, having someone else work with him. Nothing changes the outcome. I am afraid at some point, this flight reaction is going to lead to life ending injury for him.

Any success stories on actually changing diet? Otherwise? Or will this just end in him being given away, shipped to auction, or dare I say otherwise? I need a good cry right now. :(

If I'm reading this right, you have tried everything you can think of for 5 years with no results? I think that you could micromanage his diet, maximize turnout, optimize his workout routine, tranquilize him, sprinkle him with fairy dust and consult a voodoo shaman and you're still going to have a reactive, flighty, unmanageable horse. But that's just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it.

I buy people having mild to even moderate success in dietary changes, but no dietary change will overcome DNA or learned behaviors. It sounds like your horse's cheese slides off the cracker, or the hamster falls off his wheel (basically he loses his mind) and it takes him a long time to recover. That's not a symptom of ulcers or Lyme's disease or metabolic issues or _______ (insert popular ailment-of-the-day). That's just plain crazy. Sure, exaust all options first, but then I'd do the kind thing an euthanize him if he is what you say he is. I would NOT give him away or auction him because I would not sleep any better knowing he was someone else's nightmare, possibly living his own nightmare, ending up hurting himself or someone else.

easyrider

Mar. 23, 2009, 11:06 PM

Don't feel guilty! Try eliminating the alfalfa first! All my TBs have also been completely nuts when fed alfalfa. And I also don't care what they say! It's no myth for some of these horses.

manyspots

Mar. 24, 2009, 08:06 AM

;)

Please keep the suggestions, stories, and insight coming. It helps me to see the different points of view.

I am absolutely willing to play the feed game. I have to admit I never did so much research into food before I was finally able to shape a feed plan for him. I really do love the BP, but if he can't handle it, so be it. Same with the alfalfa. But I am realistic enough to know not to expect miracles, but to be happy with any changes that come my way. I did EXACTLY as the vet said and went out and grabbed two bags of pellets and pulled the other food. We are starting the pellets very slowly and using only his vit/min supp. All the hay he wants (grass) but that is it for a few weeks. I am not even going to touch the Mare Magic I bought.

If I am getting this right, low starch, ration balancers, or pellets are good for horses with corn, carb, starch issues?

Overall, I am realistic about this horse. I adore him, really I do. And I am willing to continue putting time and energy into him. I agree that treating him like he has ulcers is a good move, one I will start after a few weeks of seeing how this food does. I have laid away horses before, both young and old due to a variety of issues. I do not WANT to put him down, but I can't imagine selling/shipping him down the road, because he is certainly the type will get the crap beat of out of him. Or he could hurt someone. Not an end i want for him or someone else. Ultimately, if I couldn't work this out... worse case scenario, I would lay him away. At least I would know he was at peace.

BUT we are so not there yet. I have the ability to work on this issue as he is in my backyard and handled only by me and my experienced horse friend who boards at my house. I agree, he does need more work. As you guys in tough climates now, winter was brutal this year. So he is back to work (today off, shots were yesterday), and I do have plenty of places around my house to take him out for long trots and a gallop when the ground dries out. He is a fun ride, and I do still enjoy him, but I can't have him be dangerous on the ground.

Thanks again everyone, keep it coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As a side note, he looks like at me like I am starving him when I come in with his bucket. I get the "really? this is it? where the heck did the eats go????"

Altamont Sport Horses

Mar. 24, 2009, 08:36 AM

I have a rescued draft mare here that I can't touch unless perhaps I have a feed bucket in my hand and then only can I reach out and just barely catch the breeze of the hairs on her chest before she is already a memory. Very skiddish and twitchy. You cannot touch the back end of her, I'm told, because she will kick out due to fear. Not a problem, I've never been able to get near her back end.

I tried one calming supplement with B vitamins and magnesium but it might not have been the best. It was already here so I gave it a try. No difference. Then I gave her magnesium oxide and it literally made a difference the same day. So I've continued with it. She comes up to ME and asks for attention. She wants my affection, she lets me touch and rub her face WOW. I used the evil curry comb on her and she loved it. I've been able to rub her all the way back to the SI joint, under her belly and on her front legs. Last weekend she nickered to me from a distance when I got out of my car. The mag ox worked for her but who knows what her story is. I have another very sensitive TB here and mag ox has also chilled him out in a major way. In fact I feed him less now and he is holding weight because he's not freaking out and jumping/running around all he time.

Incidentally, I believe food/forage allergies can cause hyperactive reactions like this in horses. Have you had your horse allergy tested?

But...as an appaloosa person myself and having three of them with eye problems I am very suspicious of the eyes being the problem for your horse. This is why I asked for photos. You could PM them to me if you prefer. Based on my own experience with this type of behavior I suspect congenital stationary night blindness as a possibility and seeing his coat pattern and appaloosa characteristics from head to toe would tell us if he is genetically prdisposed to CSNB. Or it could be undiagnosed uveitis. Sorry if this seems far out but you've been through a lot and your guy's life hangs in the balance so it is only fair to explore every possibility. And the sooner you can get to the bottom of it the sooner you two can be enjoying the beautiful days of spring without the dramatics.

manyspots

Mar. 24, 2009, 08:53 AM

Altamont-
Do you want eye photos or just general? I have attached links to my facebook albums, let me know if these work! He is very typical... striped hooves, scalera, molting, and a full out leopard coat. Really, you can't get much more appy than him. BUT, mom's lineage was heavily ladden with QH (no Impressive breeding). Dam was only one generation removed from QH lines. Sire was much more Appaloosa. Ironically, as I was thinking about this situation last night, I was considering dropping his breeder a note, because he does have a full brother and sister out there... wondering what they are like these days!!!

No allergy testing was done and just my regular vet did the eye check. Can further eye testing be done at the farm or will he have to go into a clinic?

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=192245&id=574555412&l=75712b8127
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=223984&id=574555412&l=4f0e799670
He's the spotted one! :lol:

Altamont Sport Horses

Mar. 24, 2009, 10:32 AM

Oh, isn't he cute?! What a sweet face he has.

The good news is that he should not have CSNB because he is not a homozygous appaloosa. I would be suspect of uveitis however. They can be suffering from uveitis without showing any outward signs. Unfortunately I know this from experience. His eyes do look a bit small which could be him or it could be deterioration. His face reminds me of one of my appaloosa mares with ERU. The size of the eyeball can shrink a little with uveitis. It's very hard to tell from the photos but I would definitely want to have an equine opthamologist check it out. The other eye issue common to appaloosas is sky eyes. Sometime it is severe and obvious and other times more mild and would require a trained eye to check it out. An equine opthamologist should be able to check that out for you. With sky eyes the eyes are not quite oriented properly so that the pupil is slightly tilted back, up, etc. This makes them very sensitive to visual disturbances. And of course uveitis is painful and pain also makes them hyper sensitive.

Appaloosas are more prone to uveitis and it is thought that in particular they react more to UV irritation due to less pigment around the eye. They should have their eyes well protected from sun but also dirt, wind, insects which can cause cause irritation and stimulate the immune system. I'm always touting the Guardian Masks (http://www.guardianmask.com) on COTH because they are good not only for horses with uveitis but also good for preventing those irritations in the first place and presumably preventing uveitis from occuring if used diligently. The Guardian Masks have 95% sunshades and the weave is so tight on the eye cups that dirt cannot get in. It obviously keeps the insects out as well. My guys wear their Guardian Masks 365 days a year regardless of whether it is sunny, cloudy or raining.

Considering his breeding and his hyper sensitive behavior the first thing I would spend money on if he was my horse is to have an equine opthamologist give him a thorough exam.

What is his breeding? Is he on the www.AllBreedPedigree.com site?

Equilibrium

Mar. 24, 2009, 02:34 PM

Have a very similar horse. I went with a diet change and ulcer route. Now when I first brought up ulcers to my husband he was like, from what. What stress does she have and he's right to a point. But my gut feeling was some of the episodes were pain related from her stomach. What happens to you when something unexpected happens or you worry about something? Well for me my stomach gets acidy and over time this could create ulcers. So I went ahead and gave her a course of gastro gaurd and now she's on a stomach buffer type thing daily.

Also before doing the stomach thing, I changed her feed. She was on a balancer of 1pd a day. That was it. Took her off anything soy related and she did change her attitude completely. Nobody wants to here about soy related issues, but they do happen. She's much happier all around, but that was specific to her and all horses aren't the same.

Good Luck
Terri

meaty ogre

Mar. 24, 2009, 04:46 PM

;)
I do not WANT to put him down, but I can't imagine selling/shipping him down the road, because he is certainly the type will get the crap beat of out of him. Or he could hurt someone. Not an end i want for him or someone else. Ultimately, if I couldn't work this out... worse case scenario, I would lay him away. At least I would know he was at peace.

I just want to commend you for taking that responsibility.

I hope you can find success. I have a retiree in my backyard who sounds like he has some similarities. I've found a "happy" place for him (maintaining his diet, the ideal pasture buddy, etc.) but he's still a handful to handle when he has his episodes, and he always will be I'm sure. I used to think maybe he'll outgrow it. He'll be 19. :(

FWIW, many here have used raspberry leaves as a cheaper alternative to Mare Magic, which I think is primarily composed of rasp. leaves. Herbalcom.com has the stuff.

As far as diet, the lower starch seems to help "optimize" many horses, though I doubt it will do much for explosiveness. Eliminating corn, alfalfa and soy could also be worthwhile, though it is very hard to do this properly. You have to read all supplement and treat ingredients, and be sure you know how to read feed tags as there can be unwanted ingredients hidden in there (beware "grain byproducts" and other vague terms). I prefer whole grains if you're going to feed grains at all, but that is not always possible (I had my own mix made to ensure that no by-products went into it...you could do similar by feeding oats but then you run into having to use a ration balancer which will have numerous ingredients and probably several you're trying to eliminate). I actually went so far as to use milk replacer as my protien source and while the horses did fantastic on it, it was cost prohibitive even for me (I'm married to a feed dealer and can just take stock out the warehouse). It didn't make a difference for my difficult horse but did help me deduce that at least one of mine can't have soy.

I've tried all kinds calming supplements and even pharmaceuticals. The usual suspects like quiessence, magnesium, b vitamins, valerian root. More unusual suspects like kava kava, chaste tree berry, st. john's wart. So many different things I can't even begin to list them all. Of course I also treated for ulcers, had his testosterone checked, full blood panels, tried different trainers and boarding situations. Sort of ashamed to admit I even tried essential oils (though I didn't waste my own money on them...other boarders who saw his behaviors felt sorry for me and gave me lavendar and peppermint, and some bach's rescue remedy or something similar).

I have had success in stopping his cribbing. I have had success in finding him a turnout situation/buddy where he is not overly aggressive or running the fenceline, etc. He actually lays down and rests more than he ever has, which I take as a sign that he is relaxed and comfortable. What I was not ever able to change was the way that he reacts to things. I think that is hardwired to a large extent, and furhter reinforced by years of stimulus/response. He is/always has been/always will be a terrible over-reactor who takes a millenium to recompose once he's lost it, which unfortunately happens randomly but with fairly regular frequency. Best of luck to you!

IFG

Mar. 24, 2009, 05:15 PM

For my OTTB, got rid of alfalfa and sweet feed. He gets Triple Crown Senior and timothy/grass mix. Same flight reaction you indicate.

pines4equines

Mar. 24, 2009, 06:33 PM

I have a story that might help. I have an older TB who was VERY aggressive to this one horse we had. Savage bleeding bite marks and charges across a field to savage this other horse. Cornering and all sorts of wicked behavior. I was at my wits end. He was being fed Strategy and alfalfa cubes. He was not ridden as he is retired and came to us lame.

Well, I tried all sorts of feeds to see if I saw a difference. Then, I switched him to Triple Crown Senior and sometimes he hates it I think it is very low sugar but he has to eat it and NO alfalfa at all. Just 1st cut NY hay. And, he is much, much mellower and no bite marks.

THen I cheaped out a bit ago and bought this other feed that was $3 less a bag suddenly the bite marks on the other horse appeared again and before it could escalate, back on to TC Senior he went...

You could do an ulcer test, try Pro CMC 1 oz AM and 1 oz PM and see if he's mellower after that. Also read Auventura Two's thread called: "We have ulcers." Very informative and surprisingly, her horse was nuts with ulcers.

lintesia

Mar. 25, 2009, 02:22 AM

I've had success with B-1 crumbles. But you have to feed about 1 1/2 cups/day, not the little tiny scoop that probably comes with the supplement. Because it's a B vitamin, any excess will be eliminated and won't get stored in the body.

Several posters have suggested cutting out the alfalfa. Go for it!

Addison

Mar. 25, 2009, 08:09 AM

Mare Magic is not an Mg supplement. It is chopped up raspberry leaves and can sometimes help a horse to settle down a bit.

We have a pony, who is normally a walk-trot, short stirrup packing saint, whose personality changed drastically when she started eating a sweet feed with oats. She was a nut. She became her old self again within a week or so after switching back to her old pellet feed. It is one made by Purina in a green bag. I can find out which one if you want to know.

As an aside, this pony is also prone to ulcer/sensitive stomach issues. She gets a dose of ulcer gard before shiping, horse shows .... (1/4 tube).

2boys

Mar. 25, 2009, 08:11 AM

Aw, what a cutie. Love your barn too!

I don't have diet change advice that hasn't already been said. I do want to reiterate though, that this spring seems to be a very *exciting* one for horsies. My normally lazy tb is being quite silly, and I have heard similar stories as well. I am not discounting your feelings, just letting you know that they all just seem "worse" right about now. I also can't stop wondering about the eye issues. Appies are so prone to them, and with your stories, it just would make so much sense. Remember, vets are usually making their best educated guess. Something could be missed. I am trying Thia-Cal on my tb (should be getting it in today). I will mention any changes...if they happen. :lol:

manyspots

Mar. 25, 2009, 08:14 AM

Hey all... just came in from feeding this morning and figured I would leave you all an update.

First, I switched the boy to Trotter (a Blue Seal complete pellet) on Monday from the beep/alf pellets he was on. The vet told me to do 1 QT AM and 1 QT PM. This is SIGNIFICANTLY less food than he was on. He is also tough to keep wieght on so he is already dropping wieght, but that is to be expected. Vet told me to do the 1 QT routine for a week, then 2QT per feeidng next week, upping each week until he balances out. I'm a little nervous based on the trouble I have had keeping wieght on him in the past he is going to be a bag of bones... BUT I still don't know what came first, the hard keeper syndrome and the behavior or the behavior leading to the hard keeper. Only time will tell.

I think he is slightly quieter than before...

Manure is getting progressively looser in the past two days. Could be the food change... could be something else? He never has loose manure.

He did lay down this morning. He never lays down anymore. As a side note, I read the ulcer thread by Auventura Two. I feel like that is so much like my situation! I am DEFINITELY going to treat for ulcers. Should I let him get established on this grain before I start with the Gastroguard? Also, one tube a day for 28 days? Looking for a little direction here... Based on some of the unusual threads I have read about strange ulcer symptoms, all I have to loose at this point is $$$$. Not that I have it, but screw it. If that is the answer, it has to be done.

I am giving him as much hay as possible which he is gobbling up, so appetite is still good. Thanks again for the support!

Meadow36

Mar. 25, 2009, 08:27 AM

I also believe that this just may be the way he is hard-wired, but I don't think you've ruled out everything yet.

I would get him scoped for ulcers - expensive, but at least you'll know for sure.

I think you've already gotten some good nutritional advice, so I won't repeat that. It's worth following what's been suggested here, and see if it helps.

Mare Magic is an herbal supplement composed of raspberry leaves. It is worth a try since you already have it - give a "loading" dose for the first month (meaning give 2 scoops instead of one) then back him down to one if he seems like he's responding.

Have you tried Depo? It is mainly for geldings that act studdish; but it's worth a try in spooky horses also. You may need to do 2 injections a month for the first few months, then back down to one a month. It may be several months before you notice a difference.

Good luck - I know how you feel - I had a TB gelding that I absolutely loved and was sooo talented, but he was sooo super spooky. He would either blow up and have a complete meltdown or we would win the class. Every show I would pray that he would hold it together. I tried everything over the course of two years, and then just decided he didn't have any desire to be a show horse and sold him cheap as a pleasure horse, w/ full disclosure of his issues. He's still a spook, but the easier lifestyle seems to suit him for the new owner.

EqTrainer

Mar. 25, 2009, 09:44 AM

purplnurpl

Mar. 25, 2009, 10:36 AM

At the risk of sounding like BTR, your horse sounds like one of the thin IR horses I have worked with. They are freaks when fed the wrong thing and are skinny.

This is what I feed those horses:

Uckele Tri-Amino
Copper
Zinc
MagOx
Selenium/E
Salt

Mixed in a handful of BP. Free choice hay.

When they stop acting like freaks, I start adding in the RB I use, which is by Progressive.

No other grains. No other feeds.

I highly recommend you try this. During this time, I leave these horses ALONE. No grooming, no handling, just out 24/7 and blanketed if it's cold. But they need a break from stimulation.

I did this with a horse that I was working with.
He is still a hotter type but at least we can get on him! Everything hurt his skin. He would sink to the ground when he saw a saddle pad. He seemed to always be sore. He would NOT let us get on him. Poor guy. And I will also add it is very hard to convince owners that things need to change. I ultimately lost the ride because of my fix--owner didn't like him thin. Now he's over a year out of the change and I"m sure has recovered and looking swell. I bet they think, see, Kristen just wasn't feeding him enough when the issue was 6 months of liver repair and NOT lack of proper nutrition.

Here is before the diet change at age 4.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/endeavorIR.jpg
Here is is after the diet change at age 5.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/Guys153b.jpg
I left him alone for 4 months during the change.

this is my FAVORITE picture of him. 7 months after the diet change. But Apparently I don't know what I'm doing and he's far to thin. (roll eyes)
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/andy3-1.jpg

Auventera Two

Mar. 25, 2009, 10:45 AM

ABSOLUTELY check for ulcers. That was the first thing that popped in my head, because my horse was the same way. She was a very good girl on the ground to handle, very polite and well trained. But she was hotter than hot all the time. It seemed like she was good under saddle but would spook only when cantering. Right before she was scoped though, the spooking got very bad, even while just standing still. The last ride I did before the scope, she even spooked and bolted when she saw her own horse trailer. She'd traveled 3x a week in that trailer for the last 3 years. But as we were walking up to it, she just planted her feet, snorted, and wheeled on a hind foot and bolted. It took 10 minutes to get her up to that trailer. She was white eyed and terrified of it. Afraid of birds, grass, leaves, shiny things. Everything.

She scoped with having severe, bleeding ulcers and did 35 days of Gastrogard, and a prety hefty prevention program for the duration. She has done a complete turnaround and the spooking and explosiveness is just a painful memory. :)

And FWIW, my mare eats a LOT of alfalfa hay, and beet pulp. She also gets Wellsolve L/S, BOSS, and Flax. Also Nutrena XTN on heavy work days only. She's still a very sensitive and hot horse, but not reactive and spooky like she was.

Unless a horse is getting pounds of sweet feed and no turnout, I think that more of these spooky explosive situations are due to ulcers than anything else.

I tried the calming supplements, and magnesium. I tried working the crap out of the horse in a round pen or longe before riding. THAT made things exponentially worse, as you can well imagine. I tried discipline for the bad behavior. I tried doing a soothing massage and long grooming session in her stall before riding. I even tried essential oils rubbed in her nostrils that were supposed to be calming and soothing. I changed her diet. I had a vet exam. I had another peron ride her to see if it was just me. I did everything I knew to do, and that mare would still be cantering along and suddenly spin and bolt for absolutely no reason. (Well, there WAS a reason, and it was ulcers.)

Honestly, I spun my wheels for 6 months trying to find a magic potion or diet, or something that would fix her. All hail Gastrogard. That was our saving grace :-)

Auventera Two

Mar. 25, 2009, 10:58 AM

You could do an ulcer test, try Pro CMC 1 oz AM and 1 oz PM and see if he's mellower after that. Also read Auventura Two's thread called: "We have ulcers." Very informative and surprisingly, her horse was nuts with ulcers.

Boy you got that right! :lol: The last endurance ride we did in 08, she was a fire breathing dragon. One lady asked me if she was a breeding stallion. She was doing aires above the ground and would just prance in place, could not stand still for a MINUTE. Did a major spook out and bolt on the trail and nearly dumped me. Was doing the arab death snort as loud as she could. During the vet check, she would just half-rear and whirl around, sending everybody around her flying. She was just flat nuts. It was so embarassing I wanted the earth to swallow me up.

This Sunday I took her to a work day for our mounted volunteer group. She was AWESOME. So calm and collected. Just hanging out, doing the obstacles, even trotting over the teeter-totter. Standing on the rail with the reins draped, hind foot cocked, falling asleep, waiting our turn to run the obstacle course again. Ran the course in a winning time, then back to the rail for more sleep waiting for our next turn. She was better behaved then some horses twice her age and experience.

Absolutely a different horse post Gastrogard. And you're right, Pro-CMC is awesome! I use it every day.

manyspots

Mar. 25, 2009, 11:02 AM

pines4equines

Mar. 25, 2009, 11:03 AM

No don't PM. Let us all know...Please. Thank you!

manyspots

Mar. 25, 2009, 11:05 AM

I really do feel like I have a nightmare on my hands... and its as emotionally painful for me as it is physically/mentally painful for him!

Right after I posted my update, he started pacing the paddock like a mad man. Now mind you... he was cool as a cucumber yesterday, today out of his mind. WTF!!!!????? Anyway... this is an example of what I deal with on a daily basis. :no:

So here is the big question.... start with what first? Continue the diet plan? Treat for IR through this? Treat for uclers if I see no response? Treat for ulcers now? Any suggestions Eqtrainer or others?

buck22

Mar. 25, 2009, 11:23 AM

do one thing at a time, don't be like me and try 3 remedies all at once because then you never know what worked :lol:

someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but copper and zinc added (NOT iron) is beneficial only if the horse is missing it in his diet. Same with Magnesium.

tri-ammino is an mix of 3 amino acids which the body needs to utilize protein (again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong)....

If I were in your shoes (I was and I've learned a bit from some of my mistakes :lol:) because of just starting a brand new diet and noticing an immediate change in manure, I'd keep to the same diet for at least 10-14 days, and see how it goes. Then, I'd start either a trial run for ulcers or mg.

I need to balance my own horses' copper and zinc, copper is sorely lacking it looks like, but I still have a lot of math to do and so I haven't added co or zn yet as I don't know how much. Mg I added willy nilly at first, and when I did a quick balance of my hays, I found I have an abundance of mg, so I've tapered off quite a bit, but I still don't have it down to a science.

My advice again, is to do one thing, wait 10-14 days (unless of course there is an emergency) and then try something else... give it time. I personally would not be making major switches to my horse's feed 2 or more times a month.... but I'm really cautious too and do everything very slowly.

When I used miracle clay for my horse's suspected ulcers, it took about 45 days before the transformation slowly began to happen. 90 days later, he was a different horse, but it came in little tiny subtle doses.

copper, zinc, magox (magnesium oxide), tri-ammino can be bought here: uckele.com

Altamont Sport Horses

Mar. 25, 2009, 11:31 AM

I'd probably treat for ulcers using what is known to work...either Gastrogard or Ulcergard paste because you would have an answer within a week. If you have to order Ulcergard and have it sent to you then put him on an IR diet immediately and see if that helps while you are waiting for the product to arrive in the mail. Even if it is IR, if he is acting like this he is obviouly stressed as well so the UlcerGard could help.

The IR diet doesn't have to be perfect with all the minerals balanced. The important thing is to get him off of grain, sugar, treats, and soak his hay to get the sugar content lower. Soak for 30 minutes in hot water or 1 hour in cold water and drain all water out where he can't drink the water that has the sugar in it. No alfalfa. If you can get some magnesium supplement into him that would be great. Beet pulp is sold at feed stores but you really want the molasses free beet pulp and then soak. If it is shredded beet pulp you should rinse first, soak, and then rinse again before giving.

Quantity of hay is important too. No more than 2% of his body weight in hay and weigh it out (dry) to be sure. Beet pulp can replace up to 1/3 of his hay. But you only give half the weight of beet pulp (dry). If he is 1300 lbs. he would eat 26 lbs of hay per day. You could give him 17.33 lb of hay and 1/2 of 8.33 lb of beet pulp...so appx. 4.16 lb beet pulp. You'd want to work him up to that much of course. If he is overweight then bring the percentage down to as low as 1.5% of his body weight in hay.

If you join the EquineCushings Yahoo group you can read more about the IR diet.

Has anything at all changed since Monday? Different hay? Do you have sprigs of grass being uncovered by melting snow? Brown or stressed grass can have just as much or more sugar than green grass they say. IR horses shouldn't eat "dead" or dormant grass or spring grass. It has a lot of sugar stored up in it for growing season.

RedMare01

Mar. 25, 2009, 12:18 PM

Auventera Two

Mar. 25, 2009, 12:20 PM

I also live with two IR horses. Lucky me. :rolleyes: I haven't seen them act crazy due to IR. I always thought IR made horses more lethargic and un-motivated. Hmmmm. :confused: My IR horses are quite lethargic when the sugar is too high. They react the opposite of how a non-IR horse would react with too much sugar. I always thought that was the norm, but EqTrainer says different?????

My horse was eating like a pregnant elephant during ulcers. She was eating literally triple what she should have been in order to keep her body weight up. She's still a hard keeper but it has definitely improved.

I do agree with the break from stimulation. I let my horse basically sit for about 10 days when she started Gastrogard. I did not even groom her. Just turned out with the others, eating pasture and a little hay. That was it. After 10 days, I did a trail ride with her and she was STILL rotten. Honestly, it took the full 35 days of treatment before she was completely over the crazy behavior.

Note: You do not need to buy prescription Gastrogard. You can buy Ulcergard from www.discountpetdrugs.com (http://www.discountpetdrugs.com) for cheaper, with no script. It is exactly the same medication, the only thing different is how the tubes are scored for dosing. Same company, same mg/kg ration, same drug, same everything but no script needed.

Auventera Two

Mar. 25, 2009, 12:25 PM

For the ulcer crowd...I'm also having major issues with my mare and hotness under saddle right now (see my thread on soy...). But, I suppose it could also be ulcers. If it is ulcers, would adding UlcerGuard or Pro CMC help without doing GastroGuard first? At least a small improvement to tell me we're on the right track before spending the $$$ on GastroGuard?

Caitlin

UG and GG are identical. Same drug, same 2.28 grams of omeprazole per tube. Everything is the same.

The difference is that the UG tubes are scored with 4 black marks that say Dose 1, Dose 2, Dose 3, Dose 4. GG instead have weight graduations - just like a dewormer tube. The UG tubes are just easier to divide into doses because you don't have to measure the plunger and divide it yourself.

No matter which way you slice and dice - treating ulcers requires 2.28 grams of Omeprazole per 24 hr. window. So whether you give a full tube of UG, or GG, doesn't matter. Same exact thing.

The difference is that once you have done the treatment regime, and you want to switch to just taking preventive measures, you give UG, because the plunger is graduated in 4 equal doses. It's pure convenience.

You need a vet script for GG, not for UG because of the way the package is labeled. Just like you could take three 200 mg. Ibuprofens that you bought over the counter, or you could get a script from the doc for 600 mg. pills. Same drug, same 600 mg. of that drug, just different delivery.

Ulcergard and Gastrogard are both manufactured by Merial. Some people think that Ulcergard is a knock-off, or generic, but it's not.

EqTrainer

Mar. 25, 2009, 02:12 PM

I order all my supps from Uckele or Horsetech.

Re: Ulcers - you can do Rinitidine for a few days. If the horse has ulcers, you will see an improvement. Then you can continue w/Gastroguard. Rinitidine is a PITA tho' as it is 3x day and I always have to syringe it, because it is vital that they actually GET IT to see if it will help.

Otherwise... if you think you have ulcers, get out the Gastroguard. Nothing IMO work as well. Mapleshade has recently reported that the ulcer supplement from Progressive works VERY well but I have not tried it yet. With the new horse coming tho' I will probably get to ;)

Re: Magnesium - you will know if a horse is getting too much, they will get the runs. How much is too much really, REALLY varies by horse. You can have lots in your hay but still need to supp it, depending on the horse.

No, please, don't PM me :lol: I don't do private consultations via COTH. I try to participate as much as I can here in public but I prefer to not have 10 PM's asking me the same thing!

dmj

Mar. 25, 2009, 03:30 PM

is he a hard keeper? I am just not seeing a reason for feeding anything other than a lot of high quality grass hay - unless it is not available in your area. My hot, reactive TB gelding was in heavy work, competing in 4' jumpers for years - and did incredibly well on hay alone. Our facility was shared with a dressage trainer who was an alternate on the Olympic team - she fed simply grass hay to her equine athletes as well.

ZiggyStardust

Mar. 25, 2009, 03:35 PM

manyspots, thanks for the reply re BP. Just wanted to add, please don't feel alone! That is how I felt for the last year, and like a bad mom. You are not alone in dealing with these frustrating issues, for sure! Some of us just have the EXTRA special horses ;)

Also, if it is any consolation, once we got the other factors sorted out, my horse is now thriving on the least amount of food he's gotten since I owned him (4 years). Weight is good, and he's actually built a lot of muscle, seems miraculous! For a long time I had to throw food at him to keep any weight on and he still looked skinny.

TrotTrotPumpkn

Mar. 25, 2009, 03:53 PM

Well if you have some of the above problems mentioned (IR, ulcers, etc.) then this won't help, but I had a "diet change success story" recently. I moved my (very, very hard keeping) tb to a different facility and switched to Triple Crown Senior, which is very low NSC and am top dressing with Omegatin and I am actually to the point where I am missing all that forward (and sometimes reactive) energy! I may try their Complete formula or add some whole oats to up the carbs now that he is in heavier work...

If you can just do hay and a ration balancer/vitamin mineral mix that would be the way to go for my two cents

I will also add that my horse became very reactive when given msm supps...sort of random, but doesn't hurt to mention it.

jackalini

Mar. 25, 2009, 07:53 PM

I have a mare that was on Safechoice (literally a handful) and a roundbale who was fat fat fat and hot hot hot. I moved her to a new place for training, and they switched her to hay only with a mineral block thrown in for fun. ;)

It has taken a little while, but with consistent work and a hay only diet, she has become much quieter, more focused and settled. Instead of being so hot that any leg back or leg pressure led to shooting forward, she listens to what I was asking. She also looks great in body condition - not chubby but holding her weight just fine.

I would definitely try a hay-only diet for your horse, and give it some time. It took my mare about a month and a half to show a measurable difference. Best of luck!

manyspots

Mar. 26, 2009, 07:55 AM

I would love to do a hay only diet in a perfect world. However, he has dropped a bunch of wieght even since Monday. Is that a symptom of anything in particular?

To put it into perspective, his previous meals were filling an 8 QT bucket... most of which was soaked plain beet pulp pellets top dressed with 2.5 QT of alfalfa pellets. This along with almost free choice grass hay is what it took to keep wieght on him this winter. Oh, plus some rice bran. It worked better than oil and flax.

So, now he is on 2 QT A DAY of pellets. Plus the hay. And I am afraid he is going to quickly become a bag of bones. But, I am committed to trying to the change.

I am planning on looking into the IR and ulcer issue after giving this a chance. Is it OK to treat a horse as if they have IR anyway? Or am I better off doing a RB or a handful of beet with a general multi vite?

I have the beet (plain pelleted) on hand anyway because i feed it to my old guy boarder.....

Auventera Two

Mar. 26, 2009, 09:33 AM

I would love to do a hay only diet in a perfect world. However, he has dropped a bunch of wieght even since Monday. Is that a symptom of anything in particular?

Ulcers. My horse looked like she'd lose 50 pounds overnight. She would eat 40 lbs. of hay a day, a 5 gallon bucket of soaked beet pulp, and several pounds of grain just to try to maintain weight. A lot of people report loss of appetite, but that was not her problem. She ate like an elephant, but just could not retain any of it. I have no idea how or why that works that way, but it did for her. Seeing that you've been pouring the feed to your horse and he continues to lose weight, there is no way I'd suspect IR.

I guess I'm confused by all the IR references? WHY do you think this horse is IR? Was it in this thread and I just missed it?

Symptons of IR: Obesity, runny eyes, laminitis, cresty neck, lethargy, muscle wastage, and fatigue. Yes, some IR horses are emaciated, but its because their owners are starving them to try to get the weight off and keep them sound. One of my trimming clients was literally giving her horse 1 flake (about 4 lbs.) hay a.m. and p.m. That is 8 pounds a day, and that is ridiculous. Starvation is not the answer. Feeding the correct feed in the correct amounts is the answer.

So how do those symptoms fit your horse? :confused: I am totally lost on that one.

manyspots

Mar. 26, 2009, 10:34 AM

Auventera-

Eqtrainer suggested treating him for IR which apparently worked for one of her rehabs. So that is where that originiated from.

I agree, I do see some references to skinny horses in IR research, but not many. I also agree, ulcers seems to fit better and I don't see what I have to lose in going that route. It is so funny when I read about yours and see HOW MANY similarities there are! I am not looking for a quiet horse, just a safe, managable horse.

So ulcer treatment it is. I think I am going to skip "testing" for it with Pro-CMC and the like and just order the ulcerguard. Yikes!!!!!!!!! Thinking about selling my trailer to pay for it :eek:

The wieght drop is really drastic. I wish I had taken photos of him Monday and then another of today. He looks all tucked up... still eating and drinking like a champ. And I agree... was eating like an elephant.

Isn't life stressful enough without these issues! I can't believe you have two IR horses as well!!!!!!!!!

manyspots

Mar. 26, 2009, 11:07 AM

Good to know about the rebate!

Your girl is a cutie! I will def have to weigh him... I am going to guess he is in the ballpark of 1200... he's thick. I am assuming I will need to do the tube, but we will see.

Do you like to order from somewhere in particular?

florida foxhunter

Mar. 28, 2009, 09:19 AM

I second the ulcer testing or treatment, but also strongly suggest looking INTO the eyes. There was an article in Feb. or March 08 Equus called "horses behaving badly"..(Cover story). It talked about a horse who who got so bad it wouldn't go out on a trail......and long story short, it had these fluid filled sacs that had developed IN FRONT of the pupil (not visible when you just "look at the horses eye".....you have to look INSIDE it.....with the proper lighting and angles) If you know what to look for, any horseperson could see it, and then call your vet to be sure!. What happens is when it's bright sun and the pupil shrinks, these "black holes" develop in the horses eyesight and really freak them out.......

I looked into one of my horses who'd begun behaving badly in the hunt field and there they were!! Luckily, I am a few hours from University of Florida's Vet School, and Dr. Brooks, a world renowned Equine Opthamologist.......so down we went. He sedated him, popped these fluid filled sacs with laser (the horse was standing) and sent me home the same day. I had to put antibiotic ointment in his eye and keep him out of bright light for about 2 weeks.....and he's good as new. It cost $586.00

I wonder how many horses get scolded, beaten, etc. for shying, getting frantic, etc. that have these eye problems develop and no one knows (unless caught on a prepurchase with a flashlight to the eye).

They often develop in horses after the age of six (mine was 10 when I discovered it).......but have been rarely seen in younger horses. I think he said Foxtrotters are especially prone to it!

Every horseman should be aware of this condition........it's VERY easy to check for!

Good luck.

M. O'Connor

Mar. 28, 2009, 01:38 PM

Diet changes can absolutely cause changes in temperament, but only in horses that have metabolisms or conditions that are diet sensitive.

Horses that tie up (PSSM/RER, etc) require diets high in fat, and may be quite different in temperament on one diet than on another.

Horses treated with Pergolide for Cushings are very different in temperament from the way they are when left untreated, and diet is a large component of controlling IR and Cushings horses.

Unless you do change your horse's diet, you won't know whether he is or isn't sensitive in a way that can be affected by it.

It sounds like your horse's behavior issues are fairly longstanding. You got him when he was relatively young.

It might be hard for you to determine which of his behaviors are learned, and which of them are metabolic in nature. You ought to be able to do it, though, with help from your trainer and vet working with you to determine what triggers your horse's nerves.

LarissaL

Mar. 28, 2009, 09:55 PM

PRICE SHOP!! The price of Ulcergard scared the pants off of me when I first looked at it. $1,000 was completely, totally out of my price range. I price shopped til my eyes fell out and found that entirelypets.com sells a tube for less than $27. I could only afford 24 days, and spent $600+.

The code EPET15495Z gets you 15% off their usual prices (I bought the 6 packs), plus it's free shipping over $100. I believe the code only works until March 31.

I have a very, very hot teenage TB gelding. He has tons of show experience and training, but was given to me. One reason was his rideability causing problems selling him. I got him last April and had a fab first summer/fall and then he did a 180 around Christmas. I actually posted a thread here laughing about his insanity under saddle (with video of his idiocy!). For a solid week, all he would do was stop, prop and canter sideways (or all, in place, at one time). One day it rained and he nearly exploded out of his skin. I never, ever dismount a horse that's misbehaving but I about launched myself off of him. After his 24 days of UG he's still a hot horse but is much more manageable. Still not "quiet" but rideable, just needing a little tact :D

It was a Godsend! I can't say that ulcers are also your issue, but it seems simliar to my guy. He started with the insanity, then dropped about 100 lbs (seemingly overnight) and then progressed to cribbing incessently (previously cribbed lightly at dinner).

manyspots

Apr. 8, 2009, 07:59 PM

The two week update goes something like this...

We switched the spooky horse diet from beet pulp and alfalfa pellets to a complete pelleted feed (Trotter by Blue Seal). I wasn't originally on board with the change figuring how much a difference could it really make, blah blah blah...

Well, he is now on 2.5QT Trotter twice a day and U-Gard Liquid. He has gone from ridiculously reactive to energetic but less stressed! He is playing, napping, lounging, rolling and in general happier! He is still getting grass hay as free choice as I can feed it.

I have also been spending a ton of time with him, just grooming and hanging out now that the weather is nice. I did notice two things: he is using his stall a lot more (he has 24/7 access to it) and is rolling or lying in the shavings. He almost seems to be getting more relaxed by the day.

My Question...

I would like to switch him to a low carb grain for a few reasons:
1) I have sucumb to the fact that he may just be the type of horse that needs grain to maintain weight.
2) He may have an alfalfa and /or sugar reaction that I would like to get further away from
3) Triple Crown Low Starch and Blue Seal Carb-Gaurd are readily available to me. I would prefer to Triple Crown.

So... do I do the switch now, since i have a 1/2 bag Trotter left so I can wean him over? Do I give this particular diet change more time? Any other suggestions?