What's the difference between MSM and glucosamine?

[TropicalStorm]

I'm sure this is a foolish question, but really, what is the difference between MSN and glucosamine?
I'm looking to put both my horses on a joint supplement as a preventative measure. One is a very large, 17.3hh Trakehner gelding, 7 years old, the other is an almost 4, 16hh, thick Holsteiner who is just getting started this week (and thinks life sucks :D )

Should I be looking for a supplement that has both of these in them? Something with a higher concentrate than the other?

(any supplement recommendations?)

Thanks!

[jaimebaker]

MSM is sulphur, glucosamine is a type of sugar/glucose (amino sugar is what it's called). MSM is cheap and does a good job for some horses. I wouldn't give glucosamine to an easy keeper or a horse suspected of IR.

Go here and it will explain the differences in the stuff in joint supps:)

http://www.smartpakequine.com/health_and_nutrition/nrjointsupplements.aspx

[Ozone]

True that you need both MSM and Glucosimine for them to activate properly no? MSM draws out C and Glucosimine replaces it along the way. I personally take it everyday for my achy bones!

[deltawave]

No, you don't "need" to give both, or either one for that matter. Neither substance has much (that's putting it mildly) in the way of data supporting its usefulness, although anecdotal evidence abounds and people swear by one, the other, both, or neither based on their personal experiences. The evidence that either one of these does ANYTHING to prevent joint disease is SCANT TO NONE, closer to NONE. I wouldn't waste my money on either one. Keep the horse fit, turned out, in good weight, well-shod or well-trimmed depending on his needs, and you'll have done your best. :)

[Ozone]

No, you don't "need" to give both, or either one for that matter. Neither substance has much (that's putting it mildly) in the way of data supporting its usefulness, although anecdotal evidence abounds and people swear by one, the other, both, or neither based on their personal experiences. The evidence that either one of these does ANYTHING to prevent joint disease is SCANT TO NONE, closer to NONE. I wouldn't waste my money on either one. Keep the horse fit, turned out, in good weight, well-shod or well-trimmed depending on his needs, and you'll have done your best. :)

Thumbs up to that Delta! I was not quite sure but I have witnessed some cocktails that people feed their horses and my head spins by the end of feeding such horse! MSM when feeding a 1200lb. horse does not seem like it could possible do anything to help the horse. It reminds me of a few shakes of salt, even if given daily. I have to say I have not seen ANY results of horses on MSM. Mix that with Glucosimine.. same thing, just a "fuller" substance to go along with it. Still, you hear so much about this combo I was not sure what the deal was with it.

Sounds like you, like me are a less is the best for my horse, horse person.

[jaimebaker]

Thumbs up to that Delta! I was not quite sure but I have witnessed some cocktails that people feed their horses and my head spins by the end of feeding such horse! MSM when feeding a 1200lb. horse does not seem like it could possible do anything to help the horse. It reminds me of a few shakes of salt, even if given daily. I have to say I have not seen ANY results of horses on MSM. Mix that with Glucosimine.. same thing, just a "fuller" substance to go along with it. Still, you hear so much about this combo I was not sure what the deal was with it.

Sounds like you, like me are a less is the best for my horse, horse person.


Actually, what I think you are thinking of is Glucosamine generally works better with Chondroitin. At least that's what I've read. But not MSM. That's why a lot of supps have glucosamine and chondroitin. Occasionally it will have MSM as well but I haven't seen one that was just glucosamine and MSM.

[frisky]

MSM Shows Protective Effect in First Equine Study
by: Stacey Oke, DVM, MSc
November 25 2008, Article # 13164

In the first peer-reviewed, published study to evaluate the effects of the nutritional supplement methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) in horses, Spanish researchers found that MSM exerted a protective effect against the detrimental physiologic changes that occur during exercise.

"During exercise, free radicals such as nitric oxide and carbon monoxide are generated that are highly damaging to organs, cells, and DNA," explained Elena Vara, PhD, a member of the research team and professor of Biochemistry, from the Faculty of Medicine at Complutense University of Madrid. "In contrast, MSM is known to possess potent antioxidant properties that could potentially interfere with the production of these harmful free radicals."

To test this hypothesis, Vara and colleagues evaluated the effect of MSM supplementation (with or without the addition of vitamin C, another well-known antioxidant) in 24 competitive jumpers during a 5-week competitive tour.

Horses were randomly divided into one of three groups. The MSM group received 8mg/kg once daily with food, the MSM plus vitamin C group was administered 8 mg/kg MSM and 5 mg/kg vitamin C once daily with food, and the control group, which received their regular diet. Blood samples were collected one day after arriving at the show ground, prior to exercise, and again 10-15 minutes after their competition.

The blood samples were analyzed for various measures of oxidation including nitric oxide and carbon monoxide levels and the activity of various cellular antioxidant enzymes that function to control the production of free radicals in the body.

"Our results identified significant increases in both nitric oxide and carbon monoxide, but reduced antioxidant enzyme activity levels, indicating that the normal antioxidant mechanisms were overwhelmed in these athletic horses," said Vara.

In the horses supplemented with MSM, all of these deleterious exercise-induced oxidative changes were ameliorated, and in the group supplemented with both MSM and vitamin C, free radicals and antioxidant enzymes were almost at pre-exercise levels.

Together, results of this study suggest that MSM has a protective effect against oxidation, and potentially inflammation, in athletic horses.

The study, "The effect of methyl sulphonyl methane supplementation on biomarkers of oxidative stress in sport horses following jumping exercise," was published in the Nov. 7, 2008, edition of the journal Acta Veterinaria Scandinavica.


You can find the article here:
http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?id=13164

[Peggy]

Structurally MSM is a two methyl groups on either side of a sulfur that also has bonds to two oxygens. DMSO plus an extra oxygen.

Glucosamine is glucose (C6H12O2) where one of the OH groups (on C-2, IIRC) has been replaced with an NH2 group. N-acetylglucosamine takes one of the H's off said nitrogen and replaces it with an acetyl (CH3C=O) group.

[Druid Acres]

MSM Shows Protective Effect in First Equine Study
by: Stacey Oke, DVM, MSc
November 25 2008, Article # 13164


But the SAMPLE size is too SMALL!!!! You can't argue with DeltaWave - she haz a SCIENCE!:D

[deltawave]

Hey, no arguments or complaints from me about them doing a study on MSM in competition horses. Yes, it's a small sample size, yes, the parameters studied are a little wonky, but it begins to open the door a crack. A long way from a revelation, but a step in the right direction. :yes: So moveth science--a millimeter at a time. ;)

[RockinHorse]

Structurally MSM is a two methyl groups on either side of a sulfur that also has bonds to two oxygens. DMSO plus an extra oxygen.

Glucosamine is glucose (C6H12O2) where one of the OH groups (on C-2, IIRC) has been replaced with an NH2 group. N-acetylglucosamine takes one of the H's off said nitrogen and replaces it with an acetyl (CH3C=O) group.

Well that certainly clears it up for me :lol: :D :winkgrin: :winkgrin: :D :lol:

[TropicalStorm]

Well that certainly clears it up for me :lol: :D :winkgrin: :winkgrin: :D :lol:
That was my thought :lol:

So then, if that's the case, is it even worth doing either of them?

[Peggy]

Well that certainly clears it up for me :lol: :D :winkgrin: :winkgrin: :D :lol:I could draw a picture. At least you weren't :sleepy::sleepy::sleepy:.

[camohn]

Aside from the proof issue........the theories:

Glucosamine: helps prevent cartilage breakdown by inhibiting free radicals
Condroitin: helps prevent cartilage breakdown by stimulating HA production and inhibiting destructive enzymes
HA: component of joint fluid to provide lubrication
MSM: helps repair cartilage via a source of sulfur; anti-inflammatory

To me that means glucosamine will be of use as prevention, MSM being an anti inflammatory will be of better use than glucosamine for an existing problem.

Most general joint supps have Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM in them. HA is expensive and sold separately! (or if it is in there....not in sufficient dosage to be of help to a horse with a real problem.....)
The ones with enough HA to be of real benefit you are looking at around 2.50 a day per horse for one supplement....so personally if the purpose is prevention in an otherwise healthy horse I would not worry about spending that much.

[mrsbumble]

I believe MSM helps with the soft tissue, and the glucos. sh. (we use cosequin) aids in the joints themselves.

[2DogsFarm]

Can't speak for my horses - but MSM seems to be keeping the 27yo as fit as the 15yo and the 15yo seems to benefit from the anti-inflammatory properties for his allergic issues.

For myself, I can tell the difference if I stop taking glucosamine for a week or two. It's a cheap enough "fix" that I'd rather take it than not.

[goodmorning]

I'm not too sure, but I had started my 9yr old up on Smartflex Senior to see if it would make a difference...he seems to have an extra spring in his step, I'd say I noticed a difference after a month or so...I've always noticed a difference with Legend, nothing with Adequan on any of the suggested dosages. For the price and the extra 'spring,' it's worth it. I must admit, I am a huge skeptic of most stuff, though I will randomly give things a try ;)