Frustrated. WWYD - IR question.

[appychik]

(Warning: Rant ahead!)

So, I sent the BO an email last night about Gus and wanting to change his diet to a beet pulp one for a couple months, retest his glucose & insulin and then prehaps adjust his diet from there (going to maybe a pellet, like Progressive's ProAdvantage Grass or a different "grain" that's low in sugar and starch).

Here's my email:
From: appychik
Subject: Gus - Diet
To: BO
Date: Sunday, March 22, 2009, 6:35 PM


BO -



Well, since getting the results from Dr. N last week, I've been doing a lot of research on Insulin Resistance in horses. I'm not sure if you're extremely familiar with it or not, but "IR" is something that can be managed with a careful diet. I did end up getting your hay tested. I was more interested in just the sugar content so the results aren't very comprehensive, but they do tell me the sugar content. If you're interested, the results are attached. The "indoor" hay is what's in the main hay barn, and the "outdoor" is the hay that's out in the lean-to on the east side.

I'm still waiting to hear back from ADM Alliance (makers of the Patriot feeds) about the sugar content in the Feed Easy 12% that Gus gets. But, from what I've been able to research according to their other feeds, the sugar content is WAY higher then the recommended daily amount. For IR horses, they recommend the sugar does not exceed 10% daily (this includes all hay and grains). Actually, they (they being the Yahoo Equine Cushings Group (also do IR and other metabolic issues), the Horse Magazine and other university studies) recommend absolutely NO grain, whatsoever.

After reading A LOT, I really think it's in Gus's best interests if we change things. He wouldn't have bloodwork saying he has problems unless he truly does have issues. And those issues can be lessened if we change his diet. What I'd like to do is try beet pulp for a couple months, retest his glucose & insulin, then possibly change to a lower starch/sugar diet - something like I've got Gringo on already, like Progressive's ProAdvantage Grass ration balancer. It's only 6% NSC, versus the 14+% that the Feed Easy has.

The beet pulp is, from what I've read, the best thing to start with. It has a very low glycemic index. The issues with it are though that it needs to be soaked prior to feeding. I did read that the beet pulp can be soaked prior to feeding, and kept either in the fridge or freezer. Then all you'd have to do is dump into his feed bucket, add more water and mix in his supps.

Would you be willing to try this? I can prepare all the beet pulp at home, baggie it, and place a half-week supply in the barn's fridge, and some in the freezer... it shouldn't take up too much room. The biggest thing is though, that it can spoil quickly if not kept cool (ie his feed can't be set up for the next feeding, would need to be made up just prior to serving).

The only other thing, which you can see looking at the attached files, is that the "outdoor" hay is WAY HIGHER in sugar then the "indoor" hay. Gus really needs the lowest sugar hay possible, under 10%, and the way to achieve this is thru soaking his hay. That may be asking too much right now, but any possibility that he can get that hay primarily, versus the "outdoor" hay when out with N (another metabolic horse at the barn)?

I know I'm asking a lot. But Gus has so many other issues, and this IR is just icing on the cake. I want to have a horse that, even if it's only at the walk, that I can ride for many more years to come. His insulin levels were off the charts (he was 37 "units - forget the actual unit measure" whereas normal is 0.5-10.0) and I know that if we can better manage his diet the better he'll be in the future. The least thing I need right now is a horse that gets laminitis, or worse, founders. I'm already dealing with enough issues with both him and Gringo.

Anyways, please let me know what you think. I really would like to give the beet pulp a shot. I don't think it'll be too much work for you all, as I'll prepare it all at home and keep a few days supply in the barn fridge. You (and the other staff) will just need to add more water, mix in supps and stir. Shouldn't be too difficult.

If you want any of the articles that I found, I'd be happy to show them to you.

- Appychik

And her response:
From: BO
Sent: Sun 3/22/09 7:05 PM
To: appychik

Appychik,

I would wonder how much would change if just the large volume of treats alone were withheld- his other diet is the same as N's, who has completly recovered from laminitis and has maintained wonderfully on this diet. The only addition To N's is Quiessence. He gets almost no treats.
The interesting thing to me is, except for a small amount-the hay inside and outside came off the same fields and from the same grower. You'll have to show me exactly what bales you pulled samples from.
Have you pulled his glucosimine?

We'll need to talk some more on this next time you're out before we change anything.

-BO

Those "large volume" treats that Gus gets are one, very tiny, stud muffin-like treat daily with his PM supps. Easy to remove that from his supp container, and will do so ASAP, just haven't had a chance to yet. The glucosAmine ;) will be removed as soon as I run out of it (it's Recovery EQ). It's too expensive to just pull, and I've read conflicting studies anyways about glucosamine and IR horses. Regardless, I'm pulling that plus the additional MSM he's on.

It just p*sses me off that she's not willing to change anything, at all. I'm dreading talking with her on Wednesday. I really am. I'm willing to do anything and everything to make Gus better. He's the only horse I have that is still somewhat useful. Gringo's just pretty to look at and otherwise a gigantic headache.

What would you do? I'm still working out different boarding situations. I have a few more barns to contact to see what they charge for boarding and if they are willing to accomadate two high maintanence horses. We'll see what happens.

But what do you do when your BO thinks you know nothing? I have a binder full of information on my boys and PAGES of information about insulin resistance. I'm extremely upset that she's not even considering a change of diet. What may have worked for "N" in the past is definitely not working for Gus. And, FWIW, he's already on magnesium and that's not making any difference right now. His diet is high in sugar, and that's the problem. I will be eliminating his HUGE VOLUME of treats (that was sarcasim, btw) and the joint supps, but I don't think those two things alone caused the IR. And, another FWIW, he's only been on the Recovery Eq for about two months.

Anyways, if anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears. I'm ticked as it is, so... fire away. Just don't call me a bad owner for giving Gus joint supps for years (he's had joint issues for 9 years, on and off) and giving him a treat with his PM supps (this is a recent developement in the last few months also). Thanks.

[Also, per vet, we aren't going to do any more joint injections or Legend injections. I'm not sure about the possibility of doing strictly HA injections or not, but will be looking into that possibility. The vet is on top of things, she's just been busy cause she's a one vet practice now and never has time off.]

[BornToRide]

My BOs were friends where my mini was - they did not get it and he had laminitis at least 3 times in their care because they constantly ignored my feeding guidelines. I ended up pulling him out after the episode in March of 2008. The constant theme was "or that can't be that bad - it is just a handful" (insert oats, tablespoon molasses, after dinner mints here).

To this day they think they did nothing wrong and blamed his soreness on his trimming. I have seldom met more ignorant people, even when I informed them that the the vet check (immediately after we moved him) revealed IR and CB rotation. He has not had another episode since that last incident, thanks to strict diet management.

My so called "friends" had fed alfalfa all their lifes to their horses in addition to Equine senior and could not see how tight and wound up their horses were all the time.

Long time horse people who are stuck in a traditional rut are often the hardest to educate about new developments. You may need to move him sooner rather than later if this BO does not get it either.

In the meantime see if you can get her to feed Low NSC hay only, with some low NSC haypellets to mix a low NSC supplement in. I would not even worry about BP unless the horse really needs to put on weight.

[Auventera Two]

FWIW - my IR/PPID/foundered horse gets MSM and she's fine on it. Been giving it for maybe 6 weeks now. My vet saw no reason to not give it to her, so I went ahead and started it for the anti-inflammatory value. I've never fed glucosamine, but I know the yahoo people say it's no good. Don't know why.

Now you see why I own a farm and my girls are AT HOME.

What if you prepared soaked buckets of beet pulp and put them in a refrigerator at the barn? She could pull out the bucket and give it to the horse - no work involved, really. Mix the supplements and whatever else into it ahead of time so she doesn't have to?

Otherwise, you'll need to offer to pay $$$ for the extra care of soaking the beet pulp and feeding it. Beet pulp makes a mess in buckets and tubs, which have to be cleaned frequently. Maybe you could do that yourself once a week?

Are you able to go to the barn every day? If so, you can soak the BP at home, and go set the bucket in the paddock or stall with the horse.

The places I've boarded had a rule that if you had any special grain, you buy it yourself and put it in the feed room. Still other places would give no substitutes, but would only withhold grain from your horse, then you come every day and give whatever different that you want to. Of course they don't deduct any charge for that usually.

Setting the BP aside, I'd make it damned clear that my horse was NOT to be receiving the grain that they feed. If she cannot comply with that one wish, then I'd find a different barn that will.

[Sparky]

I'd find a situation ASAP where you can control what your horse is fed.

[mvp]

appychik-- you remind me of me. Here's what I have learned about how to make my style mesh with others.

First, my heart goes out to you. You have a horse with legitimate needs, as well as the energy and willingness to do all you can for him. It will take a really extraordinary BO to match your efforts!

Reading your BO's e-mail quickly, I don't see someone who is stonewalling you.

Remember that it's a PITA to modify feeding programs etc. for a special needs case and that there isn't much profit margin in boarding. These may be part of the motivation behind your BO's attempt to modify little things, or have you change things on your end first. Or she may just really be seeking information. It can be easy to see a long e-mail back as resistance.

Sometime back I realized that I was turning off BOs when I put all my explanations for why I wanted what I did up front. Their eyes would glaze over, and when they saw me coming, they knew there would be some lesson--politely delivered-- but some lesson on Horse Keeping as God Intended. I think I was just afraid to ask for what I wanted so I provided all kinds of rationale.

Now I do three things that work much better:

1) I see how the owner keeps her own horse and know I will not ever get much better or different than that unless I do it myself.

2) I plan on doing the work the owner doesn't normally do for her own horses myself. I ask about things that I can't do-- extra bedding, feeding, whatever. I also expect to pay for that.

3) I ask for what I want first, and then explain why only if the BO cares. That saves her time and whatever unsolicited advice I might have.

I do hope you can find a BO who really loves doing the special care horses. There are some out there and you, she and your horse will all really enjoy each other. In the mean time, perhaps my minimalist approach to BO request will help you guys.

[joharavhf]

Leave. As soon as you can. Her response was snarky and uncalled for. You are only trying to do the best for your horse....and what you are suggesting *should* cost her less to feed him.....So why she's in a hissy is beyond me!

[greysandbays]

OP: Unless you had permission to get the hay tested, you kinda overshot your authority. Your whole situation could have been boiled down to a "Hi BO, Horsie's blood work turned up some wierd stuff. Vet thinks a different feed program might help. May I have your hay tested (at my expense, of course) for sugar content and yada yada yada so we know where we're at and what direction we should look for changes that might benefit Horsie? Thanks so much."

That would have looked more like asking for her assistance and cooperation than ordering her around. Half of getting what you want is asking for it in a way that makes saying "no" as difficult/awkward/uncomfortable as possible. What you let loose on her made it real easy to say "the hell with you".


Long time horse people who are stuck in a traditional rut are often the hardest to educate about new developments.

Quasi-religious converts to the fad/scheme of the day/week/month/year who get some notion stuck in their head aren't all that easy to "educate" either.

[Ozone]

Not to side with the BO however, maybe BO thinks you are overdoing it? I've noticed from a BO view that boarders tend to think they know all too much about what their horses should be eating ... when they do not. Not saying that you don't OP - you have obviously done your homework but instead of emailing the BO you should have discussed it personally to begin with. I would not like to discuss a horses feeding program over a computer but only face to face (speaking from BO view again ... sorry)

I have noticed that less is better in feed and supplements AS LONG AS you are feeding the right stuff to begin with. The treat comment... well to each his own there. My horses are forbidden to eat any treats but apples and carrots because really, what is in those stud muffins anyway?

[appychik]

Long time horse people who are stuck in a traditional rut are often the hardest to educate about new developments. You may need to move him sooner rather than later if this BO does not get it either.

In the meantime see if you can get her to feed Low NSC hay only, with some low NSC haypellets to mix a low NSC supplement in. I would not even worry about BP unless the horse really needs to put on weight.

I'd love to feed a low NSC Hay only, but she's not even game for that yet. It's very frustrating. She knows a lot, but like you mentioned, she's stuck on that this works for other horses so it should work for Gus. Like I've mentioned, looking at other boarding options as we speak... we'll see what pans out.

FWIW - my IR/PPID/foundered horse gets MSM and she's fine on it. Been giving it for maybe 6 weeks now. My vet saw no reason to not give it to her, so I went ahead and started it for the anti-inflammatory value. I've never fed glucosamine, but I know the yahoo people say it's no good. Don't know why.

What if you prepared soaked buckets of beet pulp and put them in a refrigerator at the barn? She could pull out the bucket and give it to the horse - no work involved, really. Mix the supplements and whatever else into it ahead of time so she doesn't have to?

Setting the BP aside, I'd make it damned clear that my horse was NOT to be receiving the grain that they feed. If she cannot comply with that one wish, then I'd find a different barn that will.

Supposedly the glucosamine can mess up the insulin production somehow (but don't ask me, as its confusing), but glad to know that I could keep Gus on the MSM.

With regards to the beet pulp, I'm more then willing to purchase and prepare it myself. Shouldn't be too difficult, and there is a fridge at the barn where I could store premade baggies. Just open, dump in bucket, add more water, mix supps and feed. I already clean out his buckets just about every time I'm out, because he isn't eating all his supps as it is (he would if they added water, but they "forget").

I've tried making it clear (in person also) that I don't want Gus receiving any of the barn's grain, but she just doesn't get it.

[appychik]

MVP -

I know it doesn't appear that she's stonewalling me, but the "tone" of her email, and previous conversations in person, lead me to believe that she thinks I'm full of sh*t.

I don't know... it's frustrating. And I can see her side of things too, but the fact that she's not even willing. We'll just have to see what ends up happening.

[mvp]

I'm sure you have a better handle on your BOs general attitude than any of us!

I was just bringing up "your part in it" because I'm like you. I know a lot about keeping horses, and I have definite ideas about how I'd like my horse cared for. I also live in a small town where pickin's are slim.

I'm at a new barn now and I'm trying to do my very best to minimize the impression that I'm a high-maintenance PITA. That's why I think the delivery of information is perhaps half the battle. FWIW, I thought your e-mail was pleasant and courteous but long. I'd hate to see your BO see mounds of text and get a bad vibe on just from that.

Given your horse's needs and the relationship you already have with this BO, you might not be able to "fix" either his feeding thing or whatever the BO has decided about the merits of your requests. I just though I'd share my own experience with trying to keep a lid on my high-maintenance tendencies.

Best wishes for a prompt and "good enough" solution to your problem.

[BCLINGER]

[edit] You had her hay ANALYSED? I would be a little annoyed too. And you want beet pulp, soaked and fed with pinot grigio twice a day? And that "letter"...I would have been dismayed to get a 50 page treatise [edit] too.

[edit]

[pattnic]

Is Gus at a point right now where he needs grain (or beet pulp)? I don't remember what you have him on for supplements - are they mostly pelleted? Basically, what I'm getting at is: would it be possible to have Gus on a hay-only diet (from the lower NSC hay) with only supplements given at feeding time? At least until you can find a different boarding situation?

PS - If you want to pull the Recovery Eq imediately, let me know. I may be interested in taking it off your hands.

[appychik]

OP: Unless you had permission to get the hay tested, you kinda overshot your authority. Your whole situation could have been boiled down to a "Hi BO, Horsie's blood work turned up some wierd stuff. Vet thinks a different feed program might help. May I have your hay tested (at my expense, of course) for sugar content and yada yada yada so we know where we're at and what direction we should look for changes that might benefit Horsie? Thanks so much."

That would have looked more like asking for her assistance and cooperation than ordering her around. Half of getting what you want is asking for it in a way that makes saying "no" as difficult/awkward/uncomfortable as possible. What you let loose on her made it real easy to say "the hell with you".


I did tell her that I was planning on testing the hay. This was last week sometime. At that time she said she'd had it tested, but it was years before. She couldn't remember anything much about the hay. I said I'd like to test it to see what the sugars were at. From what I've read it is important to have low sugar in the diet.

Anyways, I ended up testing the hay at my expense and shared the results. I, as a horse owner, have the right to know what my horse is eating. I shouldn't have to ask if it's okay to test the hay. That's not overstepping any bounds, in my opinion.

I also told the BO Gus's bloodwork results. I always share everything like that with her. I do get what you're saying, about my approach. Perhaps I was a bit too blunt about it, but she THINKS that nothing needs to change. When that clearly isn't the case.

I'm waiting to hear back from the vet. When I get that information, I'll have more ammo to add to my arguement. That arguement being a diet change. I don't see what it has to be difficult, and why she's being so difficult. IR isn't hard to manage, if you have a good game plan - I'm still working on mine, but I have a good idea.

Not to side with the BO however, maybe BO thinks you are overdoing it? I've noticed from a BO view that boarders tend to think they know all too much about what their horses should be eating ... when they do not. Not saying that you don't OP - you have obviously done your homework but instead of emailing the BO you should have discussed it personally to begin with. I would not like to discuss a horses feeding program over a computer but only face to face (speaking from BO view again ... sorry)

I have noticed that less is better in feed and supplements AS LONG AS you are feeding the right stuff to begin with. The treat comment... well to each his own there. My horses are forbidden to eat any treats but apples and carrots because really, what is in those stud muffins anyway?

Perhaps, I'm overdoing it. But that's who I am. I'm very much into doing research and figuring out how to make things better. I'm also a bit of a hypochondriac, in the sence that I read something and think "My _____ has that!". I've not been wrong yet.

Working at a vet clinic for 5 years, I've learned a lot. Prevention is the key, hence why nearly all my animals (I, personally, have 5 of my own) get regular check-ups, vaccines, deworming and bloodwork. All of them. Horses, dog and cats.

So, maybe I am overdoing it, but I'm doing what's needed.

With regards to supplements, he's not on that many at all: multivit, joint (two different ones because I want more MSM in his diet), magnesium, and recently added the fenugeek (good for IR horses) and chaste tree berry. All fit into a 2 cup container.

His treats and always homemade. I make my own "stud muffins" so I know what's in them, and how fresh they really are. Apples and carrots are actually really high in sugar... so Gus won't be getting anymore of those from now on.

The treat comment just p*ssed me off. I don't feed a large volume of treats, nor have I ever. I'd like to know how she thinks one small treat a day (size of a quarter) is large volume.

[BCLINGER]

So your horse is on fungeroot, chaste berrty, and high blood pressure medication, and you STILL think the BO is the one with the problem? Your horse has High blood sugar? That falls in the catagory of: Now I've heard everything.

[edit]

[onelanerode]

[quote=BCLINGER;3968098][edit] You had her hay ANALYSED? I would be a little annoyed too. And you want beet pulp, soaked and fed with pinot grigio twice a day? And that "letter"...I would have been dismayed to get a 50 page treatise [edit] too.

[edit]quote]

[edit]

See, when you have a horse who is insulin resistant, you do things like hay analysis so you can determine how much sugar your horse is currently getting and what parts of his current diet, if any, are actually suitable for him.

You should be grateful you've never had to deal with a horse who has "something so idiotic." We should all be so lucky.

OP, there are people out there who are willing to educate themselves and work toward providing the environment your horse needs. Don't waste your time with the willfully ignorant. From someone who has allowed herself to be railroaded by people with more "experience" before, remember that it is your horse and you are paying the bills.

A truly professional adult will have no problems understanding the reasons why your horse needs a special diet and will be willing to work with you on how to provide that. You may have to get creative with feeding and scheduling, or pay extra, but it'll be worth it. The peace of mind you'll get from not having to worry about who's feeding your horse what inappropriate crap is priceless.

[Auventera Two]

[edit] You had her hay ANALYSED? I would be a little annoyed too. And you want beet pulp, soaked and fed with pinot grigio twice a day? And that "letter"...I would have been dismayed to get a 50 page treatise [edit] too.

[edit]

So your horse is on fungeroot, chaste berrty, and high blood pressure medication, and you STILL think the BO is the one with the problem? Your horse has High blood sugar? That falls in the catagory of: Now I've heard everything.

That was absolutely uncalled for. Do you own an insulin resistant horse? What they eat means the difference in happy sound bliss and career/life ending laminitis and founder. An insulin resistant horse is somewhat like a human with Type II diabetes. Their cells are not sensitive to insulin as a normal horse is. This means the body must release massive quantities of insulin into the blood stream to try to deal with glucose. Insulin is highly inflammatory and the elevated levels causes acute laminitis. The more glucose in the feed - the more insulin the body releases - the more intense the hoof pain and damage.

Having the hay analyzed is absolutely crucial in the management and treatment of an IR horse. Unless you know the NSC level of the hay, you have no idea how much sugar you're dealing with. Perhaps the OP should have asked permission to analyze the hay first? It wouldn't have hurt to do so. But that's beside the point now. When dealing with a situation as serious as IR, there is not time for hurt feelings and paris hilton tissy fits. What is important is the health and well being of the animal involved. If the barn owner was angry that the hay was analyzed without permission, then she could tell the horse owner that, and it's a done deal. Whatever. But what matters NOW is the health of the horse. If the barn owner is unwilling to work with the owner toward an acceptable management plan, then the horse owner needs to move. A barn owner that knowingly and willingly feeds grain to a diagnosed IR horse, is endangering that horse's life and soundness. I can understand her not wanting to take on extra work or committment - fine. No problem there. But just stop the grain, which costs no money to anyone and is no added work. But the barn owner has made it clear she won't even do that. So to me, that horse is in a very bad situation and needs to be moved if it cannot be worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

It has nothing to do with misplaced maternal instinct, or stupidity. It has EVERYTHING to do with keeping a horse sound, healthy, and alive. I own 2 such horses, and it takes a LOT of knowledge, and management changes to keep these horses out of metabolic crisis.

If you have nothing useful and helpful to add, perhaps you should just butt out. And welcome to the Ignore List of 1. :rolleyes: Good riddens. Oh, and pull up your pants because your butt is showing.

[BCLINGER]

auventura (or whatever it is): this is a HORSE! Just thought I'd remind you of it. Horses now have type 2 diabetes? and this is a serious problem? Just when you think the world can't get any dumber, it does.

The economy is tanking, the constitution is being eviscerated, millions unemployed, but you're worried that the BO did not give your horse it's fungeroot today?

Put me on ignore if you like ....you've already done that to the rest of the world.

[BenNevis]

BCLINGER, do try and read for comprehension. She said that IR in horses is similar to diabetes in people, and she explained why she said that.

Yes, it is a HORSE. And the horse's owner is determined to take the best care of him that she can. This is a HORSE-related board, so most of us would help her if we can. You, on the other hand, offer nothing constructive [edit].

OP, I'm not familiar with all the supplements you're using, so can't comment on those - other than to say that if you're not absolutely sure each is necessary, I would stop them until you get his basic diet stabilized. I agree with some of the above posts, that you need a new barn. One of my horses has EPSM (diagnosed by muscle biopsy, not guess work). His special diet is a complete PITA, but happily I have found a barn where the people understand that it is a legitimate need, not just my preference or whim. I hope you find a similar situation quickly.

BenNevis.

[tpup]

auventura (or whatever it is): this is a HORSE! Just thought I'd remind you of it. Horses now have type 2 diabetes? and this is a serious problem? Just when you think the world can't get any dumber, it does.

The economy is tanking, the constitution is being eviscerated, millions unemployed, but you're worried that the BO did not give your horse it's fungeroot today?

Put me on ignore if you like ....you've already done that to the rest of the world.

God, who IS this person?? You are really nasty, and probably posted some of the rudest, most uncaring posts I have ever read.

Kudos to the OP for looking out for her horse. Who can blame her for that? OP, you told the BO you were testing the hay. That is your right to do. You are paying for what she is feeding your horse.

As for the treats, remember that perception is not always reality. It may SEEM to your BO you are overfeeding or over-supplementing. Regardless, it's your horse! If you want to feed your horse chocolate covered pretzels that you pay for and give your horse, then so be it.

My horse would be considered a major PITA by many. He's a hard keeper and gets...are you sitting down...soaked BP 2x per day, TC senior that our barn offered to switch my guy to at her expense (vs. sweet feed) for a few horses - not just mine....he also gets soaked alfalfa cubes and Plat. performance. I buy the extras but our wonderful barn mgr. does the soaking in separate containers and the feeding. Now that's the type of barn you need.

What you are asking for is not unreasonable IMHO. And there are alot of special needs horses who need way more and get it. I would either sit down and have a heart to heart, a.e. "I'd like to stay here but..." or just find another place. Good luck to you.

[tpup]

auventura (or whatever it is): this is a HORSE! Just thought I'd remind you of it. Horses now have type 2 diabetes? and this is a serious problem? Just when you think the world can't get any dumber, it does.

The economy is tanking, the constitution is being eviscerated, millions unemployed, but you're worried that the BO did not give your horse it's fungeroot today?

Put me on ignore if you like ....you've already done that to the rest of the world.

And BTW, ummm....we know it's a horse. Sounds like your other "issues" should be posted to our government, not a horse board. Don't take your anger out on loving, caring horse owners!

[Auventera Two]

BCLINGER is undoubtedly a troll so put him on your ignore list and just forget about it. :) And quit quoting the garbage so I don't have to read it! LOL. Anyone who thinks that Insulin Resistance is a stupid problem has obviously never lived with one of these horses. If they did, they would know. It is a VERY very serious condition and if not handled properly, the horse will undoubtedly founder, or suffer repeat founders until the only option is to euthanize the horse. IR horses suffer secondary medical issues such as cataracts, muscle tissue wasting, laminitis, and fatigue.

BenNevis - you made a really good point about making sure the barn owner knows this is a legitimate veterinary need, and not just an owner's whim. It may help to have a statement from the veterinary office.

[appychik]

Is Gus at a point right now where he needs grain (or beet pulp)? I don't remember what you have him on for supplements - are they mostly pelleted? Basically, what I'm getting at is: would it be possible to have Gus on a hay-only diet (from the lower NSC hay) with only supplements given at feeding time? At least until you can find a different boarding situation?

PS - If you want to pull the Recovery Eq imediately, let me know. I may be interested in taking it off your hands.

No, actually he maintained his weight beautifully this winter... first time in a couple years. Didn't (for once) need any of the added Cool Calories. His supps are mostly pelleted, but they are a couple that are powders (and they don't come in a pellet form). I'd love to do a hay only diet... just not sure if it'll fly.

As far as the Recovery Eq, there is literally a dose or two left, that's it. Otherwise, I'd mail it, but for that little bit it's not worth it.

[Phaxxton]

[edit]

To the OP -- I guess I just assumed you had permission to have the hay tested, so I won't touch that one. To be honest, I think you overdid it with that email. You remind me a bit of myself a few years ago. ;) No, you didn't ask for anything outrageous or anything like that, but you sort of approached this situation in a manner that suggested that this was a huge inconvenience (and that you knew the BO wouldn't like the idea). I think you should approach the BO in person or over the phone if possible. (I say "if possible" because I know sometimes at large barns, BOs prefer to communicate via email or written notes so they have records.) Parts of it, where I know you were just trying to explain yourself, came off as suggesting that the BO didn't know what beet pulp was, how to feed it, etc. Just keep it simple, too -- "My vet says that Dobbin is insulin resistant and needs a new diet. For a few weeks (or however long), he can only have soaked beet pulp and hay. I'd be happy to provide the beet pulp, measure it out, and pre-soak it if you don't mind me leaving it in the fridge so it doesn't spoil. The barn staff would have to mix a little extra water in it when they feed it and add his supplements, though. Is this something you think you can accomodate for a few weeks to a month until we can start him back on a diet more in line with the other horses in the barn? I understand this is not ideal and completely understand if you would need to charge for the extra work."

Then she either says yes or no. If she says no, then you may have to move to a barn that can accomodate your needs for now. Unfortunately, that goes with the territory of owning a horse that has somewhat special needs sometimes. Most barns are more than willing to accomodate reasonable requests (especially if you offer to pitch in to ease the burden on them as much as possible or offer to pay a reasonable fee for the extra work involved.

Good luck. I hope your horse is doing much better soon. Definitely sit down with the BO (or give her a call) and have a quick chat about it when you can. :yes: Stick to being pretty matter-of-fact, but of course polite.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

You need the BO to be your comrade right now so I think it is important to say "Yes, you are right. He should get no more treats and I am pulling his joint supplement right now. Thank you for remembering that." I don't know what the action of glucosamine is but considering it has the word "glucose" in it I can imagine that it might not be good for an IR horse. Who cares if you already paid for it. If it can make him worse or keep him from getting better than you are better off scrapping it now even if it is only to make a statement to the BO that you are serious about your horse's diet being very strict.

I would recommend that you provide the buckets for the beet pulp that you then wash when you come to the barn. She should not need to add any additional water to the already prepared beet pulp. At least I never have had to do that. Just dump it out of the bag and give it to the horse.

Now, if both stores of hay came from the field I have to wonder how you went about sampling the hay. Also, is that hay grown on the farm there or did she buy it from a hay farmer and assumes that both came from the same field? To properly sample hay you need to pull from 12 different bales, preferrably from different locations in the stack. I purchased a hay bore in order to test it correctly. It drills in and pulls a core of hay out from the middle. If you only tested a couple of bales then the results might be off. Some bales could be higher and some lower.

I think you sent her an email message because you anticipated resistance and didn't feel comfortable talking to her. I think you need to gather your nerve up and talk to her directly. This allows for better communication and you'll get a better feel for her attitude.

It should be no problem for her to withhold grain...hey, it saves the barn money when Gus doesn't eat their grain. Ultimately you can do the IR diet without giving beet pulp so keep that in mind if the beet pulp gets to be too much of an obstacle. Quiessence comes in a pellet like feed and you can give it just like that. Prepare his "feed" in a little baggie with the appropriate supplements and the barn can dump it into a bucket just like it was feed.

I don't know where you live but I think his biggest risk coming up or already present is green grass. Keep him off of spring grass and grain which are his biggest problems and if the BO doesn't line up with you on his care you start looking for a more flexible boarding situation. Soaking hay is a royal pain in the rear. She doesn't want to do it since she doesn't do it for the others and it is a lot of work. What she might not be realizing is that Gus' IR is probably more severe than the other horses. What was Gus' insulin:glucose ratio (or is it glucose:insulin ratio)? The lower the number the more severe the IR.

[joharavhf]

[edit]

Appychik - you are doing right by your horse. Good for you!!!!

Is there a specific reason you can't hold out and just "deal" until you can move the ponies??? Are you experiencing a laminitic episode right now??? (PLEASE NO!!!!)

[appychik]

What was Gus' insulin:glucose ratio (or is it glucose:insulin ratio)? The lower the number the more severe the IR.

Ratio was 3.1, if I remember right. Glucose was normal [116 (52-121 mg/dL)], but insulin levels were very elevated [37.0 (0.5-10.0 ug/dl)].

And, I'll be the first to say that my email probably wasn't written as well as I should have written it, but I sorta knew what she'd say, hence the reason why I overly explained stuff.

And.... both boys will be moving by May 1st. Any of you who followed my previous thread on that may be shocked to find out that I was able to get pasture board for both boys for $350 in the summer and $425 in the winter. I'll be saving a ton of money on that alone. I'm very, very pleased.

Although I'm a bit terrified of my boyfriend's mother, she's a wonderful lady and an excellent horsewoman. Knows her stuff, may question me on it, but will do whatever I ask.

Still need to figure things out right now though, until the boys leave. Did hear from the nutritionist from ADM Alliance. The grain Gus is on now is in the ballpark of 16-20%. She recommends their StaySTRONG Metabolic Mineral Pellets... so we'll see what I ultimately switch to.

Thank you everyone for the sound advice. For the lovely troll, well 'nuff said. Thanks again everyone. I am really looking out for Gus's best interest. Now just waiting for the vet's reply back.

[appychik]

[edit]

Appychik - you are doing right by your horse. Good for you!!!!

Is there a specific reason you can't hold out and just "deal" until you can move the ponies??? Are you experiencing a laminitic episode right now??? (PLEASE NO!!!!)

No. No episodes, that I'm aware of. Never had an episode either... **knocks on wood**. Maybe she'll just pull his grain and call it good. Who knows? Like I've already said, just waiting on the vet now.

[Moderator 1]

We've purged the insults/personal commentary from the thread and addressed the situation privately.

Please send us an alert if there are inappropriate posts in the forum so we can handle situations as they arise.

If anyone would like to debate or discuss presence of IR in horses in general, feel free to start a separate thread to do so, and we can keep this thread focused on the OP's questions.

Thanks!
Mod 1

[appychik]

We've purged the insults/personal commentary from the thread and addressed the situation privately.

Please send us an alert if there are inappropriate posts in the forum so we can handle situations as they arise.

If anyone would like to debate or discuss presence of IR in horses in general, feel free to start a separate thread to do so, and we can keep this thread focused on the OP's questions.

Thanks!
Mod 1

Thank you Mod 1.

[sid]

AC - I suspect your BO does not want to be "educated" about IR, but someday might have one or two and would welcome the information. Those of us who manage it know how hard it can be even when we keep our horses at home!

I would make life easy for her/him.

Frankly, you're going to have to test every new batch of hay the comes in, so this problem will arise again.

Why not just pay the extra to put Gus on free choice Hi-Fi Gold forage (superb for IR horses) and Wellsolve L/S and request that Gus be drylotted once the grass comes up? My stallion, Boleem, was literally a few days from being euthanized after a 2 year saga with IR that could not be controlled, no matter how well I managed him and his diet -- until these two new feedstuffs came out for severe IR horses. Complete turnaround. Plus the simplicity made my life easier as well -- with a BIG sign on his stall saying "NO TREATS, NO HAY" for passersby.

This would make life easy for her, end the debate and allow you to sleep at night. May cost a little more due to the price of the products, but it's a tradeoff.

Either that, or you'll need to move your horse to a place will accomodate his special needs diet. Just a suggestion.

Best,

Susan

[dwblover]

I feel your pain. My horse has EPSM, but luckily I self-care so I don't have to worry about other people feeding him. I have had barn owners/managers who felt that all the boarders knew nothing about horses. It's definitely annoying. I'm glad you are moving your boys. I don't think your BO did anything terrible, but it does sound like she is unwilling to help you out with your IR guy. And just wanted to let you know that Recovery EQ has actually been shown to induce Hypoglycemia (lowering of blood sugar). It's also supposed to help ward off laminitis. Please read their research on their website. I wouldn't want you to pull your horse off the supplement that may have prevented his laminitis thusfar.

[Pat Ness]

Now, if both stores of hay came from the field I have to wonder how you went about sampling the hay. Also, is that hay grown on the farm there or did she buy it from a hay farmer and assumes that both came from the same field? To properly sample hay you need to pull from 12 different bales, preferrably from different locations in the stack. I purchased a hay bore in order to test it correctly. It drills in and pulls a core of hay out from the middle. If you only tested a couple of bales then the results might be off. Some bales could be higher and some lower.

Here is a sample of the hay from my friends field - baled over a 7 day increment - same field, first cutting was the outside 2 windrows, next cutting was 3 days later and was the next 2 inner windrows, then the next cutting was 3 days later and was the inside windrows. (does that make sense?)
Sugar count as follows:
first 2 windrows 12%
2nd 14%
3rd 16%

Same field - same grasses - no alfalfa. There was a spell of no rain for 9 + days - by the 9th day the grass was stressing enough it was keeping the sugar in the leaves and not going down to the roots. The hay was all cut at the same time of day - after 4 pm.

The time of day and when it last rained are 2 of the things that I have learned make a difference in the sugar count.

[Katy Watts]

There was a spell of no rain for 9 + days - by the 9th day the grass was stressing enough it was keeping the sugar in the leaves and not going down to the roots.

Interesting data. Confirms a lot of previous studies. What kind of grass?

A qualification: sugars only go down to the root on certain species, and then mostly after freezing temperatures. For a more detailed discussion, an article I wrote a while back.

http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?ID=6058

[appychik]

And just wanted to let you know that Recovery EQ has actually been shown to induce Hypoglycemia (lowering of blood sugar). It's also supposed to help ward off laminitis. Please read their research on their website. I wouldn't want you to pull your horse off the supplement that may have prevented his laminitis thusfar.

Interesting. Very interesting.

[appychik]

FWIW, Gus is already drylotted and has been for probably close to three years now. Will definitely talk to the BO either tomorrow or Wednesday about pulling all grain from his diet until he leaves the barn in May... I don't see why she'd fuss about it. And I'll try to feed him when I can on my own time, or something like that.

And, Pat, that is really interesting about that hay field. I remember reading some of the analysis' that you'd had done and how rain made a difference between a couple fields/hay batches.

[Pat Ness]

Thanks for the article Katy - I did not understand it all, but I believe I got the main ideas.

I am curious about the sugar not going down to the roots -I thought there was less sugar in the grass leaves between 10 pm and 10 am. That was what some people did to manage their IR horses. Also - isn't it supposed to be better to cut hay early in the morning so there is less sugar in the leaves?

I really don't know what kind of grass it is. It is an old stand that she has been cutting and using for several years. This was the first year she tested - I don't think she will be using it any longer for hay as the protein was about 6%. She has had many horses come down with cushings over the years - makes one wonder if the hay might have had an influence on the cushings.

[Katy Watts]

I am curious about the sugar not going down to the roots -I thought there was less sugar in the grass leaves between 10 pm and 10 am.

Yes, that's true. But its not generally because the sugars move back and forth from the roots. Sugar made during the light hours gets used for growth. If grass is growing, sugar gets used up with new growth. When growth stops from drought etc., sugar stays there.

Protein content is not about the kind of grass. It's more about nitrogen fertilizer and stage of growth for cutting.
Katy

[xaviera]

I am jumping in kinda late, but have been in your shoes. Not fun! So hope not to come off as a critic, just am using a phone, so will be brief :-)
We were recently in a very fancy facility with lots of help. What saved us while there, was the staff loved us, as we treated the stall cleaners & grooms really well & tipped extra for the special needs requests. Then, I went out of my way to do as much as possible myself. However, barn owner very challenging, & several (2-3) boarders chimed in/stirred the pot. Some people will always take issue with the way you feed your horse, no matter how research driven & nutritionist guided you may be :-( Here's what I learned: I was initially too open about my horse's condition & care, leaving myself an easy target for criticism & bullying. I over explained, just as you did, believing that education would bring cooperation. Now, I am matter of fact, to the point, & keep to a 'need to know' basis.Also, for safe treats, Google "Skodes"--she make low carb, safe, tested treats, & you will be beyond reproach. Hyaluronic acid is safe for IR, & may be effective orally, worth reviewing the research. I avoid glucosamine, but give my mare both Adequan & Legend injections, & her last insulin was only 2 after exercise, Cornell's parameters. We have worked very hard for that. There was a time her G/I ratio was in the 3's.


I have a letter from my vet to cover everything I do--diet, vaccines, etc. I have also moved on to a more supportive facility. I also try to fly under the radar as much as possible.
Second, I gave up on hay, & feed a complete feed. In our case, a pelleted low NSC hay with minerals to balance, created for IR horse's. I make all my baggies, one for each meal, with every supplement included. I gave a drawer for each meal. I prepare my own beet pulp, make individual meal baggies, & then either freeze them or put them in the fridge. The frozen beet pulp thaws in a colander under hot water in about 3 minutes. All the barn staff has to do is empty the baggy into her bucket, add vit E oil & the beet pulp, soak in water 5 minutes to make a mash & feed. I have a letter of recommendation from my present barn manager on file for future use re: how easy this is, in case I ever need it. My issue at my former barn was one of philosophy :-( You have to find the right fit, & then do your part.

Also, can you find Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes where you are? Do a search of the Yahoo IR group. I think the beet pulp is in the cubes, along with the minerals to balance them/Dr. Kellon. Also, did you say you had your boy on a dry lot? He should not have any grass, especially the stressed, chewed down nubs.

Good luck & best wishes :-)))

[xaviera]

me again--can't edit with this phone!

Anyway, if you could find the Ontario Dehy low carb timothy cubes, you could feed them as a complete feed. Check the Yahoo group files. I think they have made a list of distributors, or you can Google the company & call the company rep, Arelio, & he can help you. I use a different but similar system, & life is so much easier, you cannot imagine. You can make a mash a have a carrier for his supplements. My mare loves her food, & she looks great! Her labs are great, as I mentioned. Check with the Yahoo group about whether you need to add vitamin E oil & a liitle ground flax (about 2 oz). Also, stay away from products with a high fat content with IR, fat will drive your insulin up. Anyway, I wrote a lot in spite of myself. We're in a great place, so I know they are out there! My vet explains it to me this way: equine endocrinology is an emerging science in veterinary medicine. My take is not everyone is ready to hear their cherished way of doing things is wrong--better to learn to keep my big mouth shut! We are now in a very progressive environment. Better fit.

:-)

[marta]

this is such a tough situation to be in.

i think you got some good advice. i also don't think you were out of line testing the hay (why would you have to get permission to test the hay??? that's crazy!).

i hope you guys can sort it out. when i made a decision to keep my mare in a dry lot for most of the year, i agreed to pay for the extra hay she was getting. the BO and i sat down, figured out roughly the average number of extra bales she was consuming and tacked it onto my board bill. it seems petty, but if that $30 extra was going to give me a peace of mind and ensure that my mare was getting all the hay she needed, it was fine with me. as much as it sucks to set a precedent by offering to pay for these extra services, if you really like the barn you're at, and if you feel it would make it more likely for your BO to take your requests seriously, it may be worth the $20/month.

good luck!

oh, one more thing, in the event you decide to find a new barn, skoda treats has a listing on their website of IR friendly boarding facilities. also, if you post on the cushings group that you're looking for boarding for your IR horse in a certain geographic area, you may get some leads from folks.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Appychik posted on the EquineCushings & IR Yahoo Group that she has found a new boarding situation starting May or June, can't remember.

I was soaking hay while I waited to get test results back on mine. I was so so SO relieved to find out it was only 3.4% sugar and starch and would not need to be soaked. That is incredibly low S/S. My life is a lot easier and there is less mess in general around the barn due to soaking, draining, dripping, etc. Even better that we could stop with the soaking now that mosquitos are becoming a problem again.

I can't help but think it is worth the time and money to locate some low S/S hay, buy and store so you don't have to do the soaking routine. Alternatively, study the www.safergrass.org website and know what helps to produce low S/S hay and ask a local hay producer to do that for you.

I bought 180 bales of low S/S hay and am set for the next year. I'll get more fresh before then but it's good to know I've got this horse covered.

I don't board my horse but I have a lot of horses here. I do have a farmhand so I am accustomed to thinking "How do I make this easy and a no-brainer for him...and me?" I bought 10 of those small mesh haynets from Millers ($10 each). I weigh out 5 days worth of hay at a time, tie them closed with a hay string, and organize it by morning or night feeding (I give more at night). All we have to do is grab it and go. Similarly I will weigh out the horse's vitamins and minerals for at least a week in advance and put into baggies.

[sdlbredfan]

Regarding the troll, instead of wasting anyone's time with more of ignorant rants, I suggest (troll whose name I will not say lest the mods think it is one of those 'personal insults'), go educate yourself on the subject. What Appychik and Auventura Two said is absolutely, cutting edge Veterinary science truth. If you never have had to deal with a horse with these issues, consider yourself blessed. If you do find yourself with one however, I hope you will open your mind to the proper way to care for them, for their sake.