YAY! Shedding!! Now how do I keep her dark??

[faluut42]

My mare is FINALLY sheding her ugly burnt winter coat (shes out 24/7). Shes a DARK bay, almost black. Now that shes shedding ehr winter coat, how do I keep her summer coat dark? I REFUSE to put her in a stall so thats out of the question, but am not against supp, sunscreens, fly sheets, etc.

Any advice??

[Seven-up]

If you refuse to stall her during the day, I suggest developing a love for sunburned bay...:winkgrin:

Some people say paprika, but if you show, that can trigger a positive drug test. The Black as Knight supplement contains paprika.

Others recommend BOSS; I've fed my bay horses that during the summer, and they were very shiny, but still got a little sunburned. Can't say how well that keeps them dark, since they were bay to begin with. I've heard Fresian peeps feed BOSS to keep them black.

I think the general consensus on spray on sunscreens and sheets is that they don't really work, or at least not very well. Haven't tried them myself.

[Addison]

Black as Knight is amazing but as stated previously it does contain paprika which has casaicin in it and will test if that is what they are looking for. I know you can use it and still show as long as you stop feeding it several days before the show.

[JB]

Lots of threads about bleaching ;)

IME, making sure there is ample copper in the diet is critical. One of the components of paprika is copper, but whether there's enough in a couple of tablespoons of paprika depends on the horse and his diet. It wasn't nearly enough for my horse. So, I add copper by itself. The darker the horse, the more copper they need, as copper is a player in melanin production. If you search a bit, Melyni posted a couple of times on how exactly copper affects hair intensity and resistance to fading.

[GallopHer]

JB,

Do you know if there is a danger of OVER supplementing copper? I bought the Poly Copper from Uckele and I feed 1/2 scoop per the instructions. However, my horses fade dramatically and our well water is very high in iron. Would it be safe to up the Poly Copper, slightly?

Thanks.

[faluut42]

If you refuse to stall her during the day, I suggest developing a love for sunburned bay...:winkgrin:

Some people say paprika, but if you show, that can trigger a positive drug test. The Black as Knight supplement contains paprika.

Others recommend BOSS; I've fed my bay horses that during the summer, and they were very shiny, but still got a little sunburned. Can't say how well that keeps them dark, since they were bay to begin with. I've heard Fresian peeps feed BOSS to keep them black.

I think the general consensus on spray on sunscreens and sheets is that they don't really work, or at least not very well. Haven't tried them myself.

NOOO!!! Shes got this GORGOUES black looking coat in summer (at lteast she does in her race videos), but right now shes brown... When I got her in Nov she was black but wasnt very shiny.

Shes on BOSS and gets tons of grooming, has a very shiny and soft coat but is burnt brown. WHAT GIVES!?!?!

JB,

Do you know if there is a danger of OVER supplementing copper? I bought the Poly Copper from Uckele and I feed 1/2 scoop per the instructions. However, my horses fade dramatically and our well water is very high in iron. Would it be safe to up the Poly Copper, slightly?

Thanks.

dido

My dark bay lives in a Rambo bug buster with neck cover. She has this luxurious dark red sheen to her coat also that I just LOVE. You can see her picture in my profile. Without it, she fades somewhat.

Oh I forgot - there's also a spray on sunscreen called Quic Screen that I use too!

Be very careful to always rinse sweat off the coat after every ride as well.

THATS the type of coat I want!!! What do you feed her (meaning do you give her any extra supps)?

[deltawave]

Some dark bays (like some blacks) seem to bleach, while others seem to avoid it. I personally wouldn't do anything that was outside my normal routine just for the sake of coat color--it's not hurting her or anyone else to allow the sun to do what it does naturally. :) Curry, add oil to the diet, provide shade--beyond that, is it really worth the bother?

[Entourage]

I went through this when I had a black horse. He came to me bleached out. If her spring coat is black and you don't intend to keep her inside during the day when it's hot out, hate to say it but she's going to bleach. BOSS, paprika, flax, did nothing for my guy. Fly sheet always made him hot. Luckily he came inside during the day since that's just the barns routine and he hated being out in the heat. I also frequently rinsed him off. No soap, just water to get the sweat off him which will also discolor their coat. If you find any products that work please let us know!

[Seven-up]

Well, she was black in her race videos because she was inside during the day. Flip a coin. Do you want a black horse or not? I'm afraid stalling in the daytime is just about your only option. What's the reasoning on refusing to stall? What part of the country do you live in? For me, there's no alternative to stalls--it's waaaaaaaay too hot to be outside in the sun. Maybe you're lucky and live in a cool place. :cool:

Plus, think about a dark horse being in the sun all day. Black attracts heat. I knew of a black horse who would overheat and start panting if he was in the sun for more than an hour. Keeping him outside would have been downright cruel, not to mention dangerous to his health.

[Green Acres]

I'm afraid stalling in the daytime is just about your only option. What's the reasoning on refusing to stall? What part of the country do you live in? For me, there's no alternative to stalls--it's waaaaaaaay too hot to be outside in the sun. Maybe you're lucky and live in a cool place. :cool:

For some, the cost is prohibitive (sp) to stall the horse. For me, stalling my dark bay is not doable. First off my barn is too hot even with fans on. (barn not put in the ideal place on my property but it was there when we bought the place). Secondly, my horse would either hurt himself or tear the barn down trying to get out. He HATES being inside. So I'm going to try the flysheet route (Kensington - I think) and hope my guy won't be sweaty in it. But I know he will get hot in it and I will just have to hose him lots.

[Seven-up]

Cost is understandable. Too hot is understandable. Stalls don't exist on the property is understandable. Just figured I'd ask, since it was phrased "I REFUSE to..." and that sounded like the OP had some aversion to stalling for some reason.

[trottingfilly]

Oh man, I was just thinking of this today! My shiny black gelding came to FL with me this year, first I had to clip him and then he's lived outside all winter... :no: He is like a light buckskin! I can't wait for him to shed this awful hair off!

[JB]

JB,

Do you know if there is a danger of OVER supplementing copper?
Sure, there is danger in over supplementing just about every mineral :)

I bought the Poly Copper from Uckele and I feed 1/2 scoop per the instructions. However, my horses fade dramatically and our well water is very high in iron. Would it be safe to up the Poly Copper, slightly?

Thanks.
*I* found that (back when I was using a different product, the Poly Copper is a much cheaper way) that I had to really load up the copper for about 10 days, then I could go back to a "normal" amount. As I'd been out of any copper for long enough when I started the PC, I started out with a full scoop for, I think, 3 weeks (full scoop was less than the full dose of the other product, so I just increased the time), and then went to a 1/2 scoop.

I have already seen an improvement in the Winter coat fading. He stays black for the most part, regardless (in Winter), but his saddle area fades to a very noticable red if I don't do anything. This year there's hardly a red mark, and he's worked up quite a sweat on many a day this Winter, so it's not like he hasn't worked to account for the lack of fading.

[PonyPenny]

My horse always has a bleached coat in the summer no matter what I did. He was a solid very dark brown. I ended up dyeing him back to his normal color. It took some experimenting to get the technique right and to make sure the dye did not irritate his skin. It took 10 boxes of Balsam Color Very Dark Brown to cover the entire body. I mixed all ten boxes in a bucket per the manufacturers directions. I applied with a sponge. After the specified time, I rinsed and rinsed to be sure all the dye was out. He looked great. It took the awful brassiness away and left him his true color. I could of never gone to a show unless I dyed him as he looked terrible when he was bleached out.

[Blinkers On]

Keep the horse out of the sun. Turn it out at night. I know good TB farms that choose to turn out at night as opposed to during the day. Or keep the horse covered up. A light light sheet and a hood. I would so much prefer in during the day in front of a fan or a mister and turned out at night than a highly burnt coat.

[JB]

Funny, I'd prefer turned out all day to having to stall a horse 12 hours a day for the sake of cosmetics :)

[deltawave]

It took 10 boxes of Balsam Color Very Dark Brown to cover the entire body.

It took the awful brassiness away and left him his true color.

Anyone else read the irony in that? :lol:

What strange human desires and needs we project on our horses. I agree with JB--who does it serve, precisely, to keep a horse in a box for 12 hours so their coat doesn't fade? Certainly not the horse.

[pattnic]

JB,

Do you know if there is a danger of OVER supplementing copper? I bought the Poly Copper from Uckele and I feed 1/2 scoop per the instructions. However, my horses fade dramatically and our well water is very high in iron. Would it be safe to up the Poly Copper, slightly?

Thanks.

While there probably IS a point where copper would become toxic, copper toxicity has not been shown in horses (even pregnant pony mares give exceedingly high levels of copper), according to the most recent NRC's Nutrient Requirements for Horses.

The biggest danger to over-supplementing copper would likely be from throwing off the balance of other minerals.

For my dark horses, paprika doesn't seem to be doing anything, and they don't seem to be fans of the flax... so they recently started on Uckele's Poly Copper and Poly Zinc. They will likely get flysheets at some point. They will not be put in during the day though, so if it doesn't work, they'll bleach out and that's that.

[deltawave]

Seeing how she keeps doing it, it must not have adverse side effects.

That's a big intuitive leap! :) People do all kinds of crazy things, adverse effects or no.

I don't have a problem with dyeing, per se, just with keeping horses in unnatural and less-than-optimal circumstances for our own vanity's sake. :)

[deltawave]

Very true! I'm firmly in the "whatever floats your boat" camp on this stuff. But being human, I/we all tend to give funny looks to those whose boat seem to float in a different river than mine/ours. :)

I suppose there's really no point in owning horses at all, if you strip it right down. ;)

[HoofHeartSoul]

Funny, I'd prefer turned out all day to having to stall a horse 12 hours a day for the sake of cosmetics :)

Major Ditto! i would be afraid that when i let him out at night(after 12 hours in stall) that he would have pent up energy, run and not be warmed up and injure something

i would much rather him move around all the time and build muscle and condition himself.

i have seen a couple pics of ppl said there horse's faded coat looked awful....i think they looked pretty. ppl pay for highlights :D as long as the coat is shiny and sleek i think they look fine.


but thats just me. :)

[faluut42]

She isnt happy in a stall (which she will have to get over at shows), and it gets to 100 degrees + were I live so a stall is a definate no. I think i would come to the barn and my horse sizzling in her stall. Plus it keeps her sounder, her feet better, and she doesnt go nuts when shes turned out.

[Entourage]

I didn't keep mine in for cosmetic reasons, I kept him in because he went bat$%!& crazy if he were left out in the heat and probably would've run the fence line to come in until he keeled over. He spent his days happily passed out on the stall floor in front of a fan and his nights outside doing whatever he wanted!

[JB]

But that's the problem with sunburned hair is that it is rarely shiny and sleek. It's usually dry with fish hooks in the ends. And once it happens, its too late to try to fix it. Not that it hurts the horse - because it doesn't. It's just a personal preference thing.

If the horse is otherwise healthy, there is still no reason for a sunbleached coat to be coarse and dry. In fact, those fish hooks are often a sign of copper deficiency. Not only deficient enough to have allowed that extent of bleaching, but deficient enough to be affecting the hair structure. I don't have a picture loaded anywhere, but before I added Cu to Rio's diet, he faded to a very brown-y/yellow-y color (he's black). But still, when clean (enough) his coat was gleaming - smooth hair shaft, not fish hook.

[katarine]

Paprika, 1-2 tbs a day. Start now. Pull her off it 10 days prior to showing.

Rinse with something like Vetrolin or other gentle wash after every ride/sweaty work out. Rinse ALL over and well. Be diligent about your tack being clean, too. The salt exacerbates the situation.

I don't stall my crew and Alabama summer is not conducive to sheets of any sort IMO. You can't have her looking barn-goddess perfect if she's not going to spend the sunniest parts of the summer...in the barn. Some horses can look great and not fade/bleach, others don't have the hair for that.

[Seven-up]

Oh, for the sake of Pete. I must be cruel for keeping my horses in the barn in the summer, where it's a good 30 degrees cooler, in front of a fan where there's a constant breeze, and where the water buckets stay cool instead of baking in the sun. I mean, really, it's all for vanity. Watching a dark horse almost drop dead from heat exhaustion in 88% humidity and what feels like 115 degrees of brutal heat with buckets of sweat pouring off of it, panting like a dog, honestly, all I can think of when I look at that is "man, that horse is ugly."

[faluut42]

Oh, for the sake of Pete. I must be cruel for keeping my horses in the barn in the summer, where it's a good 30 degrees cooler, in front of a fan where there's a constant breeze, and where the water buckets stay cool instead of baking in the sun. I mean, really, it's all for vanity. Watching a dark horse almost drop dead from heat exhaustion in 88% humidity and what feels like 115 degrees of brutal heat with buckets of sweat pouring off of it, panting like a dog, honestly, all I can think of when I look at that is "man, that horse is ugly."

my mare has shade and the stalls are metal and even with fans its an oven in there, other wise i would stall her.

[Seven-up]

I think your reasons for not keeping her in are perfectly legitimate. You have health concerns, and that I can absolutely understand. It was the others who decided to make it about a beauty contest I was referring to.;)

[lauriep]

She isnt happy in a stall (which she will have to get over at shows), and it gets to 100 degrees + were I live so a stall is a definate no. I think i would come to the barn and my horse sizzling in her stall. Plus it keeps her sounder, her feet better, and she doesnt go nuts when shes turned out.

If she is going to "have to get over at shows" living in a stall, why not just teach her now? Why do you want her stressing at shows doing something she isn't used to? In my experience, horses start to LOVE coming into a stall during the heat of the day and standing in front of a fan. Why do you think she'd go nuts when whe got turned out?

I am a FIRM believer in teaching/conditioning horses to accept the life they are destined to lead as early as possible. If she is going to be a show horse, then teach her to live like one.

There is nothing you can feed her which will prevent sun bleaching. A full fly sheet and sunscreen is all that will help. But once the hair is bleached, you have to wait til that hair is shed for new, unbleached (this hair CAN be helped by diet) hair to come in.

[JB]

Oh, for the sake of Pete. I must be cruel for keeping my horses in the barn in the summer, where it's a good 30 degrees cooler, in front of a fan where there's a constant breeze, and where the water buckets stay cool instead of baking in the sun. I mean, really, it's all for vanity. Watching a dark horse almost drop dead from heat exhaustion in 88% humidity and what feels like 115 degrees of brutal heat with buckets of sweat pouring off of it, panting like a dog, honestly, all I can think of when I look at that is "man, that horse is ugly."

Hey, it's one thing to do what's most comfortable for the horse. It's entirely another to do this, which is what I was talking about, NOT your situation
I would so much prefer in during the day in front of a fan or a mister and turned out at night than a highly burnt coat.

[JB]

If she is going to "have to get over at shows" living in a stall, why not just teach her now? Why do you want her stressing at shows doing something she isn't used to? In my experience, horses start to LOVE coming into a stall during the heat of the day and standing in front of a fan. Why do you think she'd go nuts when whe got turned out?

I am a FIRM believer in teaching/conditioning horses to accept the life they are destined to lead as early as possible. If she is going to be a show horse, then teach her to live like one.
Agree, given the chance, all horses need to learn to live in a stall. It doesn't even have to be a horse who's a "show horse" (which I equate to regular showing with at least overnights in a stall). What if the horse is sick or injured and needs to stay confined for a few days/weeks/years?

There is nothing you can feed her which will prevent sun bleaching.
Yes, there is, as long as one of the reasons for bleaching is a nutritional deficiency. That doesn't turn a fading black into a non-fading black, that's a genetic component. But it absolutely can make a huge difference in how much fading goes on.

A full fly sheet and sunscreen is all that will help.
Did that one year, still had a faded horse. If the sheet has big enough holes to allow for adequate circulation, it has big enough holes to allow some sun to come through.

But once the hair is bleached, you have to wait til that hair is shed for new, unbleached (this hair CAN be helped by diet) hair to come in.
Right, you can't unbleach bleached hair (short of dyeing it). But now you say the new hair CAN be helped by diet? :confused:

[PonyPenny]

The reason I dyed my horse is because he lived outside in a large paddock. Even though he wore a flysheet, he still bleached. I dyed him because he was a show horse. He prefered living outside.

[Ellsie]

What type of sheet/fly sheet works the best that would be a little "breathable"? Where do you find Quic Screen? any tack store? No adverse reactions to using Quic Screen every day? I have a brown/black horse and need some tricks for the summer.

[jvanrens]

Me too, that's why I bought a GOOD fly sheet that has UV protection. Couple that with Quic Screen, and I can't imagine why you'd have to stall the horse. :confused:

Well, my mare goes insane from flys. If I leave her out when they're biting, she'll run herself into a lather even with a flysheet on. If she sees anyone look out of the barn she runs screaming for the gate to come in. Just not worth it. I've tried to leave her out to adapt to being a horse and had to bandage her up for weeks after she's clipped her heels pitching her fit. If she's happier inside, I'll oblige her. There's a reason she's known in the barn as "The Princess", even the racehorse guys acknowledge that she's got a very definite idea about her place in life. :winkgrin:

As for the hair dye - I have a friend who shows Minis, and before their big championship shows (whatever they're called - sorry I really don't know), she alway dyes hair. She could keep them covered and/or stalled, but she thinks that is too much trouble, and too uncomfortable for the horses, so they live out in a field in a big herd but before the big shows, they get a day in the spa. She's been doing it for all the years I've known her (since 03 I think??) Seeing how she keeps doing it, it must not have adverse side effects.

:lol::lol::lol: Yeah right. You've heard of chemical burns right? I wish I could remember which poster on the PHF wrote about burning most of her horses tail off dying it. Sure it's safe because your friend has been lucky. :rolleyes: Well, this one poster was just dying the end part of her horse's tail below the dock, something she'd done regularly, but this one time she got more dye on the horse's skin. Poor thing lost most of the hair on his tail permanently. She's very upfront with warning people who are interested in dying tails about the possible side effects and posts pictures.:eek::no: Nasty! Just count your friend as lucky. Personally I'd rather keep them out of strongest part of the sun than take the chance dying them if I was planning on showing and wanted a coat that isn't sunburned.

[CamdenLab]

For some, the cost is prohibitive (sp) to stall the horse. For me, stalling my dark bay is not doable. First off my barn is too hot even with fans on. (barn not put in the ideal place on my property but it was there when we bought the place). Secondly, my horse would either hurt himself or tear the barn down trying to get out. He HATES being inside. So I'm going to try the flysheet route (Kensington - I think) and hope my guy won't be sweaty in it. But I know he will get hot in it and I will just have to hose him lots.

I had the Kensington fly sheet and my horse got sweaty and agitated in it. It was like we'd put him in a black garbage bag. Horrible! I returned it. The fly mask is even too sweltering. The fabric is just hard and uncomfy and I don't think it breathes. FYI.

[JB]

I had a Kensington too once, for my TB gelding, and just turned out about 2 hours he was miserably hot in it. It's just not built right for hot AND humid environments.

I had a Rambo FlyBuster for my WB gelding, white, ears to tail, and he was always sweating less than his lighter pasturemates. It was stiff and tented which allowed for air flow.

[BeesyBee]

I had a dark bay thoroughbred that I leased with very pronounced withers that got huge open narsty sores on them from my Rambo fly sheet with the extended neck. I sewed fleece on that area to help, but he ended up getting too hot and I bought one without the neck from a different company. He got a farmers tan, though :)