anyone had their horse bitten by a Coral snake?

[myblackmorgan]

My horse sadly passed away, totally unexpectedly, last week. He was seen at 9 pm and was fine. He ate at least 3 flakes of hay and his pelleted feed. He was in a stall with an attached run.

He died just as I got there at 6:30 am- the vet made it about 5 minutes beforehand. His pupils were already fixed and dilated, his temp was normal but his breathing was horribly labored (vet was going to do a tracheotomy) and his heartbeat was very rapid. He was sweating profusly.

Necropsy showed pulmonary edema, some bacteria in the small intestine and a blanched ileum. Testing of tissues later showed he died of massive toxic shock. No blood was taken because it had already coagulated. So we are shooting in the dark as to what toxin could do this.

Baby Coral snakes were found recently on the property and this happened at night - they are nocturnal. He had some standing water in his run where he died, so he may not have seen a snake. But they have to hold onto their prey and chew the toxin in. There was no sign of a struggle. Looked like he just collapsed.

Beyond this, the only thing the vet knows that could act so quickly and devastatingly is lightening - whcih we did not have.

Thank you.

[caballus]

I am so sorry you lost your friend. My heart aches for you.

This is something I found on the effects of a coral snake bite:

Coral Snake Bite Symptoms

Coral snake venom is different than pit viper venom. As per Auerback, it is thought that adult coral snakes carry enough venom to kill 4-5 adults. The coral snake venom is primarily a neurotoxin. Fang marks are rarely seen. Swelling is rare. Symptoms may not occur until 10-14 hours later. Symptoms may begin as nausea, vomiting and sweating. Neurological symptoms may include lethargy, difficulty speaking, hard to swallow, drooping eyelids, and in severe cases, respiratory depression or arrest.

[Amwrider]

I am sorry to hear about your horse, how very sad and I hope you find an answer.

I am in FL and have seen a few coral snakes before, I even captured on in the barn hallway a few years ago (at a different barn from where I am now).

Coral snakes have to chew their venom in because they are rear-fanged snakes. They are tiny with tiny mouths and the fangs are in the back. They are also a rather passive snake. A lot of people mistake some species of king snakes for coral snakes.

Bites to humans are usually in the membrane between fingers so I would find it hard to think he was bitten by a coral snake unless it was on the nostril as he grazed? I would think a bite to a horse would be very, very rare.

Coral snakes are also woodland snakes, not water snakes.

[MistyBlue]

Most snake bites occur on the face...curious horses nosing them or while grazing/eating off the ground. Coral snakes are ambush biters...they use their camouflage to stay in one semi-hidden spot and then bite from there.
It's possible it was a coral snake. Are you sure the snakes found earlier were coral snakes? A lot of snakes have almost identical coloring, hoping snake eating predators mistake them for venomous corals. Remember the saying, "red to yellow kill a fellow, red to black-venom lack." The red and yellow stripes have to be adjacent for it to be a coral snake...the red stripes have yellow stripes on either side of the red.
For safety's sake, I'd also check the hay and paddock. Some plants are toxic and can grow in a paddock or get mixed into dried hay.
And I'm so very sorry for your loss...losing them out of the blue like that is really tough. :no:

[Amwrider]

Coral snakes are not ambush biters that I am aware of.

The easiest thing in FL to remember is that the coral snakes have a black nose, the king snakes have a red nose. I could never remember the rhyme when needed. We all stood around looking in the bucket at the snake trying to remember the rhyme.

Perhaps the horse stood on the snake while grazing and was bitten on the nostril? They are not agressive unless they are breeding or as a defense mechanism.

[myblackmorgan]

Hi all,

Thank you for your research - been doing my own as well. A horse did die at the barn a week before, but he had been suffering from horrendous laminitis for 8 months. He had the same sweating, tachycardia, and harsh breathing but no autopsy was done on him and I just assume they both had gone into shock. Snot nose was also going around (we had weeks of wind and dust) - for these horses and others, but mine was on antibiotic and it was clearing.

My trainer had found some balck mold in the round bales, but many horses are eating from round bales, including his paddock mate, and are fine. I think this happened after our recent heavy rains.

We thought about oral poisons, tampered wormer, etc but agreed he would have shown signs earlier and not eaten so well that evening. I had him with me from 12 - 5, so if it were a snake it would have had to have been almost 24 hrs earlier or that evening/night.

The person that saw the baby coral snakes has lived here all her life - so I assume she knows the difference between that and a King snake. But who knows?

We are just stumped.

[jaimebaker]

We all stood around looking in the bucket at the snake trying to remember the rhyme.




Red and yellow kill a fellow. Red and Black venom lack.


OP, I'm so sorry for your loss. We don't have coral snakes but we are covered up with rattlers up here. Fortunately most of my horses stay away or I have one that stomps them to death (any snake she sees...she doesn't care if it's venomous or not).

[Amwrider]

Hi all,
The person that saw the baby coral snakes has lived here all her life - so I assume she knows the difference between that and a King snake. But who knows?


You would be surprised! I have lived in the South all my life and handled my fair share of snakes (they don't scare me) and I couldn't even identify the coral snake I found with any certainly. I had to call my brother who is a reptile expert at Busch Gardens to ID it for me.

[Amwrider]

Hi all,

My trainer had found some balck mold in the round bales, but many horses are eating from round bales, including his paddock mate, and are fine. I think this happened after our recent heavy rains.


Did you raise the possibility of black mold with your vet? Maybe the other horses have avoided eating it and your horse didn't. Most of my Morgans are kind of piggy about their food and are not the most discriminating eaters.

[dwblover]

I would definitely look into the moldy hay. Perhaps you could have some tested if you are wanting answers. When I think of roundbales that got wet, I think of Botulism.

[myblackmorgan]

Thank you all.

Yes, the mold is going to be tested. I will have to do some research myself on the symptoms of botulism. I talked to my vet about the mold (as well as toxic plants, tampered wormer/feed, and anything else I could dream up) and he consulted with Texas A & M and all they can come up with is coral snake venom. The death was just too sudden and cataustrauphic. He did have blankets on, so we are wondering if a snake got caught up in there and he couldn't shake it off.

Last month, my friend's mare, in the same barn building, went into a panic during the night and ripped herself up terribly. We thought her stall door had not been locked and that she got cuaght up between open stall doors, maybe fighting with a horse across the aisle that did not like her. But now we wonder if she was trying to get away from a snake.

There is no night check and coral snakes tend to come out at night.

We have been clamoring for a night guard (but it may not have helped my horse) as well as for better hay. So far, no luck. The pickings for stables are slim around here - most becoming housing developments :no:

[Amwrider]

Spoke to my brother about this and I just wanted to correct some things i posted, coral snakes are not rear fanged, they are front fanged but the fangs are short because they are not retractible.

I doubt a snake would have been caught up in the blanket unless the blanket was on the ground. Coral snakes are ground snakes. They eat insects, frongs, other snakes, etc. that live in holes or under debris.

[Gayla]

I live in Florida and around here people always say that coral snakes are too small to bite people or larger animals. That may not be true but we sure don't worry about them. This is truly a mystery but I don't suspect a snake. For one, if your horse was wearing a blanket how cool was it? Snakes will come out on a cool day if the sun is high and they are taking a sun bath. But on a cool night I wouldn't expect to see a snake moving around much. HHMM...interesting question. You might ask a small animal vet if they have seen this in dogs or cats and what brought it on.

[Gayla]

Just a little research (http://www.gdhfa.org/CanineStreptococcalTSS.htm)
Interesting that the dogs were passing it around. COuld the other horse have had this too?

[cloudyandcallie]

PM 2Jakes about coral snakes, she is a snake expert.

Sorry about your horse. Did you find any fang marks on him, usually on nose or legs? Usually there are only 2 little bloody spots where the fangs go in.
(I had a Siamses cat who tangled with an unknown snake years ago and "Presley" came home with 2 bloody fang marks on his nose and his face swelling up like a melon. He survived as we rushed him to the vet.

Don't all snake bites cause swelling? Every person/horse/cat/dog I've ever seen or heard of getting bitten by a snake had swelling around the site of the fang marks.

I've found snakes under tarps, in stalls, and under trunks in barns. They go where they are protected and warm and covered. They can be anywhere, one woman at a previous barn found a snake in her helmet in her tack locker in the barn.

And 2Jakes can tell you how coral snakes can be distinguished from, is it corn snakes that are banded black/re/yellow also but in a different order? PM 2Jakes our snake expert, she has 10 pet snakes, altho none are corals.

[2Jakes]

Hi MBMorgan,
So sorry about your loss. It's so awful to lose one like that!

There has already been some good Coral Snake info posted so I won't repeat that. I would add though, for another way to remember which one is bad: think of a stop light, it goes yellow to red, if you don't stop you might get slammed. Yellow and red together means STOP :dead:. Same if you see it on a snake.

How cool was it that night? I doubt Coral Snakes would have been active in coolish weather, even if they were *out* they probably would have been pretty slow. Its also kind of a funny time of year for "baby" snakes, what state are you in? If you are in TX the Texas Corals (Micrurus tener) tend to be daytime critters, and are not as bad a bite as the Easterns, still not something you'd want to have happen, but even for people its not usually as severe. Coral snakes are fairly shy, nervous and secretive, they will only bite if they are harrassed in some way (like being picked up by a dog or human), I would think if they sensed a horse nosing in the grass nearby they would just move away....they easily slip under grass roots and can make their escape without even being seen.

Average adult Eastern Coral Snakes (Micrurus fulvius) can potentially deliver about 20mg of venom, 5 mg can be lethal to a human. A baby would have proportionally smaller fangs and venom quantity, perhaps a bit more potent, but probably not enough to kill a horse, especially in an "overnight" time frame. Weakness and depression maybe, ataxia, neuro signs...probably little or no pain or swelling although we did see some bites with swelling late last year, and some coagulopathies in a couple of K9 patients. Coral snakes can bite *anywhere* on a human, their fangs are short but not *that* short, they can bite thru even calloused skin.

I hope that the tissue samples will yield some kind of answers. I would hate to lose one like that and not know why. Even if it was unavoidable I would want to know.

Sidenote: As far as snakebites that swell, those are usually pit vipers (Rattlesnakes, Mocassins and Copperheads). Those bites swell terribly, bleed for quite some time, will likely cause moderate to severe tissue necrosis, sometimes neuro or blood disorders, kidney failure, infection...but even with all that they seldom kill a horse directly UNLESS it dies of airway compromise. Horses are such large "vessels" it is difficult to acheive a lethal dose.