Enlarge or Raise Height of Western Saddle Gullet?

[Guarda&TheDiagonal]

I could use some advic from people who know about western saddles. We have been trying to find a saddle to fit my husband's Belgian/Andalusian mare. She is a big, broad girl with decent withers. She wears a Duett A/P that fits well, but finding a western saddle has been a nightmare.

The latest (and most expensive) disappointment is a Circle Y draft horse trail saddle. Just for reference: http://www.shopatron.com/product/part_number=2177/468.0 The saddle itself is lovely, and fits in every way except one: The gullet does not have enough clearance at the top of her withers. There is maybe one finger-width of clearance before a rider sitting in the saddle.

Here is my question: Can a saddlemaker raise the height of the gullet? Perhaps carve out the pommel just a little deeper and then re-wrap the leather again? Is a western tree all one piece, or could a new pommel & swell be attached to this draft tree?

I would love to be able to make this saddle work. Is this possible? Anyone else have experience fitting a horse like this? What worked for you?

[sublimequine]

Have you tried a built up pad, like this?

http://www.chicksaddlery.com/page/CDS/PROD/1030/PCB655

[Guarda&TheDiagonal]

I've never used one, but I know those pads exist. I come from the old school where the saddle needs to fit -- not be fixed with a pad. I realize sometimes theory doesn't always work in real life, but I'd like to believe in it. :( I suppose I should try one of those pads before knocking it too much. But I'd still like to know if modifying the saddle is a possibility.

[goodhors]

I am going to say that western saddles are not amendable to being changed, after the saddle is built. The tree is much heavier built than any english saddle. All the parts tie into each other, to maintain that solid integrity.

There are things call Cut-Back Pads, with a slot over the shoulder/wither point, that will give your horse the clearance under the gullet area. It may give a bunch or just a tiny bit. Felt stuffed pads hold the distance a bit better, don't crush like other stuffings.

I am with you, better to have a saddle that fits correctly first.

I also have a lot of saddle fitting issues with the Western saddles. My best method was taking the horse to the tack store, trying all the saddles on over a thin blanket layer. Kept the saddles clean, gave a true fit of tree to horse back. I think I tried on at least 100 on that horse. Did 3-4 tack stores with quantity of saddles in stock. I did finally find one, that worked. Still was a time consuming process, with hauling her around, lugging used and new saddles outside for fitting. Nothing new came anyplace close a good fit. Some skirt lengths were over her loin onto the rump!

She was happy at the end, but I was just OK with the fit and ride. We got in a lot of miles using that saddle, never sore on either one of us. I have since decided that OK for me, is not good enough. So am off on a saddle hunt again for this mare's son, who is my next riding horse. He is good size, but not as big as she is and I want a different seat in my next saddle. Really just have had it with the higher backed saddles holding me in place. Not the way I want to sit, constant shifting on my part. Not uncomfortable, but not going to ride that way anymore.

There are several sites that have comments on western saddle fitting to the horse. A search should have them come up for reading. I even saw templates you could print off, try to use for sizing.

There are not the variety of trees available in saddles that there were in the past. The very best fitting saddle for my horse was something I could not ride in public! Never knew I was such a snob before facing that!! Black leather with silver trim, like a 1940's movie cowboy, and 18"tapaderos. Just could not buy it.

My local tack store has naked trees to try on, get an idea of what angles and fit, sit on horse with no leather to conceal it. And after you fit the tree, added leather layers will make tree gullet narrower. How folks measure a western saddle is really confusing, some measure from concho to concho outside, some measure inside the conchos against the fleece. Tapes are bent, not at all the same places. You get ALL kinds of sizes. Same with the seats.

Sorry about the money spent, can you ask for saddle to try on approval? Everyone around here does that when getting one from a tack store. Maybe a 5-day trial, paid-for, with saddle coming back in EXCELLENT condition and absolutely clean for full refund. There is a contract on this.

I feel for you. But trying on a lot will get you closer to what fits well, better idea of sizing needed for her.

[Bluey]

We have used those built up saddle pads on some TB's and a few quarter horses with high withers and they work fine, unless the horse has very wide shoulders also and they make the saddle too tight there.

Trying one would be a good way to try, if you like that saddle so well.

Western saddles, for some reason, are not two the same, so I would keep trying saddles and one will fit.

The trees in the better western saddles are generally wood covered with rawhide, that is stretched over the wood while wet and laced or sewed on tight.
I don't think it is worth taking a saddle apart, removing the rawhide, shaving the tree down and reapplying the rawhide and putting the saddle back together.

Try that built up pad and see how you and the horse like it.:yes:

I think this is the kind we use, that if you look at the larger picture in their ad, you can see the large area in the front that is somewhat thicker and that raises the saddle up that little bit more over the withers:

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2e87bf5d-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204

You may try for that effect by adding one towel, folded several times, on each side, under the pad you have, about where you see it in those pictures and see if that does help a little, without disturbing the rest of the fit of the saddle.
That built up part is about 1/3 of the front of the pad.
Don't ride around like that, other than a minute to try it.
If it works, get that kind of pad.

[bntnail]

Google "Colorado Saddlery". They sell trees and have built high quality western working saddles for over 100 years. Find a local dealer and they should be able to find out if a tree is available to fit your needs. As to modification, it;s not possible. Tree is built(wood or plastic)and then covered in rawhide. Cannot be taken apart. Good luck.:)

[Patty Stiller]

If the bars fit properly, then you can easily solve the problem with a "cut back" pad. NOT a thicker one, just one that is cut back over the withers.
It won't change the bar fit like a thick pad would, but will give you the clearance that you need.

[bludejavu]

I have shown Saddlebreds in the western pleasure breed classes in past years and some of mine have been extremely difficult to fit a western saddle to. Below is a link to a pad that has been a lifesaver for me. I've never had a western saddle not work when I used one of these pads. I highly recommend one:

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2E87BF59-7B6A-11D5-A192-00B0D0204AE5&ccd=INK001&utm_source=Inktomi&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=19951

[Evalee Hunter]

I've never used one, but I know those pads exist. I come from the old school where the saddle needs to fit -- not be fixed with a pad. . . .

Are you from an English riding background? English saddles DO need to fit more exactly because they are much different from Western saddles and because the trees are much smaller & distribute the weight of the rider over a much smaller space. (If you distribute 120 lbs. over 120 square inches - a space 10 inches x 12 inches - then the pressure on the horse's back is 1 lb/sq. in. If you distribute the same 120 lbs. over 240 sq. inches, then the pressure is 1/2 lb./square inch. That is the beauty of Western saddles, that they distribute the rider's weight over a large area, which means Western saddles seldom cause the kind of back pain & back problems that English saddles cause.) Anyway, philosophically, Western saddles are generally thought by most Western saddle experts to be better if too wide (as yours is) & then padded to get the correct fit.

Keep in mind that with a Western saddle, there is relatively little padding on the bottom of the tree so the fit of the saddle needs to allow for the padding to be put between the saddle & the horse's back. English saddles, on the other hand, are "flocked" with something (traditionally, wool) under the tree. Until recent years, English saddles were ridden with no pad at all & the pad under an English saddle is more to keep it clean than to help the saddle fit.

[tuppysmom]

The tree can be changed. A saddle maker who makes his own saddle trees can remove the fork of your saddle and either The DH used to do it often. It would require a new fork cover, (that's the outside leather), but it can be done.

The easiest fix is the cutback pad.

[gabz]

The tree that Circle Y uses is probably not going to be a good fit, no matter what you do. They do not have the rock or flare that you need to fit a wide-backed horse such as what you described.

You want to look for a saddle that has the Steele Equi-fit tree. It is flared at the front of the bars and it is raised up in front. Look for full-quarter horse bars or wide tree or foundation QH tree or the Draft horse size.

The rock is the front-to-back contour, the flare is how the front edge of the bars of the saddle are shaped to free up the shoulder.
You want the lengthwise bars of the tree to rest on the muscles on either side of the spine.

American Saddlery and Crates are 2 saddle makers that I know of, that use the Equi-fit tree.
I always use West20 Tack, in Wisconsin for saddle fit. The store owner can go by photos of your horse to help. She carries more than 25 different brands of saddle in 100s of different shapes and sizes.

Also, I am not sure if Circle Y uses the Ralide tree. If that is the tree - it is an injection molded one-piece and cannot be modified. The Equi-fit trees are wood and covered with fiberglass - so trying to modify one of those would not be easy to do either. Nor would you be able to change a tree that is rawhide covered wood... the rawhide is wetted and then shrunk to hold the wood tight.

[purplnurpl]

I could use some advic from people who know about western saddles. We have been trying to find a saddle to fit my husband's Belgian/Andalusian mare. She is a big, broad girl with decent withers. She wears a Duett A/P that fits well, but finding a western saddle has been a nightmare.

The latest (and most expensive) disappointment is a Circle Y draft horse trail saddle. Just for reference: http://www.shopatron.com/product/part_number=2177/468.0 The saddle itself is lovely, and fits in every way except one: The gullet does not have enough clearance at the top of her withers. There is maybe one finger-width of clearance before a rider sitting in the saddle.

Here is my question: Can a saddlemaker raise the height of the gullet? Perhaps carve out the pommel just a little deeper and then re-wrap the leather again? Is a western tree all one piece, or could a new pommel & swell be attached to this draft tree?

I would love to be able to make this saddle work. Is this possible? Anyone else have experience fitting a horse like this? What worked for you?

we just fit a western saddle to a fishy TB with shark wither.
There are western pads made with significant cut back (you can find them in most any catalog).
That is all it took. Seriously. Just the cut back pad.

[katarine]

http://www.nationalbridle.com/product-p/1-6293.htm

you may just need a cut back pad like this one above.

[monstrpony]

I solved this by using two thin felt pads that have some wither relief, and I cut the wither area out of the pad that goes on top. Instead of one thick pad under the withers, I have only one thin pad between the withers and gullet, but two pads, about the thickness of one thick felt pad, under the rest of the saddle.

[gabz]

Cutback pads are great to provide clearance over the withers and particularly shark-withered horses, but this cross - Belgian/Andalusian is a different story.

It could even be that the saddle tree is TOO wide which is why it is so low to the withers. Using extra padding may work; but it could also make the saddle roll.

There needs to be sufficient clearance at the withers without padding because the padding will pack down. The OP would need somewhere around 2" of padding on either side with a cutback pad to get minimum clearance. That much padding could then lead to other saddle fit issues.

[katarine]

I would like to see pics of the saddle in question on the horse's naked back, agreed.

Good wool pads and such don't pack down enough to make a difference. Some squishy pads do, sure- but good stout pads don't.

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . Good wool pads and such don't pack down enough to make a difference. Some squishy pads do, sure- but good stout pads don't.

You are right. I didn't think to say that I feel a pure wool felt pad (not cheap) is the correct pad to use. They don't squish down in thickness but they do shape to the horse's back (like wool flocking) over time.

[Guarda&TheDiagonal]

Thank you all for your knowledge! Special thanks to GABZ for great info on the flare of the tree(s) and the different brands. I think you hit the nail right on the head, so to speak. After a little research, I can now *see* that the Crates tree (with the flare) will be such a better fit! Can't wait to try one. I believe that a built up and cutback pad would absolutely make the shoulders too tight in this case. Thank you so much for all your knowledge!

Anyone need a Circle Y Draft trail saddle? :winkgrin: