*Sigh*. Swelling, reluctance to bear weight, no obvious injury. Long.

[HiddenStars826]

I'm at my wits end with this horse. If its not one thing, its another. This is loooonnnggg, lots of history here. If you want the most recent, they are bolded and nearer the middle/bottom.
Long story short- severe swelling, reluctance to bear weight in same limb for the 2nd time in 6 days without external signs of injury. Vet called after second episode and is at a loss. Owner (me) pulling her hair out!

Here goes the history.
1988 Arab gelding, prior Left Front bowed tendon in May 2004, set and cleared for work in November of that year. Had some minor sprains here and there in the same leg a few times, usually from running around like a crazy man in turnout, nothing requiring more than a day or two of bute and a few days rest and no issues in between those.

June 2008, bowed tendon on Right Front, no ultrasound (clearly a bow, and I had just had surgury and was out of work- they weren't gonna tell me something I didn't know already at that point).
Cold hosed, poulticed, wrapped and restricted t/o (20x50) until end of August.
August 2008, supervised t/o in the field with herd starting at 1 hr/day and progressing to about a full day. Cold hosed daily, no more wrapping.Maybe not the best decision, but he was going INSANE in his paddock and was quieter in the field.
September 2008, re-bowed right front while racing in pasture (thats a whole other story... :mad: ). September 12, ultrasounded and given a prognosis of 10-12 months before fully healed. Prescribed 20x20ft turnout paddock, wrapping/coldhosing/etc for a month. Re-ultrasound in 3 months if possible.
December 2008- natural balance shoes (with mini-studs) and natural balance pads all around to prevent snowballs and give some traction on ice.
January 2009- reshod with same setup
March 6 2009- reshod, same shoes and front pads, new set of natural balance pads on back.
March 9 2009- vet out to do 6 month ultrasound (we skipped the 3month). Happy with shoeing job, general condition, etc. Ultrasound showed positive healing, progressing where expected with the treatment route we opted for- vet happy with that. Still looking at 6 months to heal, but now allowed 20x40ft turnout, up to 1 hour of walking either in-hand or under saddle per day so long as he wears boots to prevent bruising from overreaching and keep an eye on leg to make sure it stays status quo.
March 12 2009- hauled down the street to the indoor, spent ~30 minutes undersaddle walking. Footing was nice and even, not too hard or too soft, we spent a good amount of time standing still as well, seemed okay but slightly tired at the end, not too unexpected and we ended as soon as I felt him start to tire a bit.
March 13 2009- light handwalking (about 10 minutes) just to see how he was after the previous day, on even footing (down the farm road and back), no issues.
March 14 2009- hopped on bareback, rode to field and back. Total of 15 minutes, but he wasn't exactly quiet- jigging and "airs above the ground" were common...Getting off and walking him back to the barn would have been a death wish since his feet generally start flying at that point, so I stayed on and tried to just keep him quiet. Expected him to be a bit sore after that, but not too worried since he'd done much worse at times in his paddock.

March 15 2009- arrive at barn to feed, notice he's just standing quietly in his stall. Wierd. Another glance reveals him holding his left front leg up, resting the toe on the ground lightly but the heal off the ground. Went into stall to check closer, and found some swelling on the back of the leg at the tendon- picked leg up and prodded, no real response except a tiny bit of "ouchy" just below the knee. No external marks such as bites, cuts, etc. He went to turn and would barely weight the leg through the turn, then take the weight off again after he was in the spot he wanted to be in. He was presenting exactly as he always has when he's sprained the leg, so I gave him 1.5grams bute with his AM grain and left him in the stall for the morning (the vet's been out before for the same thing numerous times, wasn't something that warranted a call in my book at the time).
About 1ish (5 hours after bute), took him out of the stall to his paddock (shortened to 20x20 again), hobbled out not willing to put weight on left front. Was given a flake of hay in paddock, happily ate it, started moving around a bit. By 4pm, swelling drastically reduced (at least in half), moving fairly normally, attitude normal. Put 1gm bute in evening feed. When talking to the person who brought in and fed that evening, she said she didn't notice anything unusual about him when she brought him in, he seemed much better than he had that morning (she did stalls that morning around 10ish).
March 16 2009- 1 gram bute in AM feed, turned out into his 20x20 paddock for the day. No bute in evening. A trusted friend said he still had some swelling, no heat, was walking okay just a bit stiff. Much better than the previous day (she saw him in the AM).
March 17 2009- no bute, turnout as usual in 20x20. I saw him, he seemed fine attitude-wise. Still a bit of swelling in the left front, but nothing major and you'd really have to know his legs to notice it. I took him out for about 10 minutes of handwalking down the farm road to let him stretch, and he was just "okay" on it- slightly stiff and shorter with that left front leg, slightly favoring it at the walk but not too noticeably. I wasn't too worried, since it was still an improvement over the past few days.
March 18 2009- no bute, turnout as usual in 20x20. Everything looked normal, barely any swelling in left front. Right front seemed a bit swelly/fluidy, but I wasn't too worried since he had been weighting it a lot more than normal and I expected the tendon to be a little compromised from that. No handwalking, but around 3pm-ish I extended his turnout back to the 20x40 size.
March 19 and 20- I didn't make it up, friend checked him a few times both days and said he looked fine, no swelling in either leg, attitude normal.

March 21- Received call at around 11am from barn owner stating that horse is really lame, but he can't tell if it is the front or back, or both- he just looked really bad and is having a hard time walking. Turned horse out, but it took about a minute (his paddock is directly next to the barn, normally it takes 10 seconds to get him out there) and horse was hurting. I can't complain that he was turned out, it was bright and sunny and horse is better there than in a stall in an empty barn. I asked BO to move hay and water into one spot in paddock as an attempt to keep horse still (he has his one corner that he loves), and BO moved the electric tape to shorten his paddock to about 12x15ft. I didn't want him moving without knowing what was wrong with him. I arrive and immediately see swelling around back of fetlock on left front, obvious to me from 20 feet away. BO said it looked like the knee was swollen as well, and upon closer inspection it was. Blanket came off for a better look. Left front leg is extremely swollen from mid-pastern up to mid-forearm. Horse isn't weighting the leg at all, he's holding it pointed infront of him with the toe barely resting on the ground, attitude not perky at all, but scarfing down hay and drinking water normally. Left hind slightly fluidy, right front some swelling near the tendon injury area, but I guessed it was just from compensating. BO said his stall had pee/manure as normal, but was completely neat and tidy which indicates that horse didn't move at all last night (he stallwalks a bit). When attempting to turn/move, he practically hops to avoid putting weight on left front as much as possible, and once the hay was gone he was happy to stand still. No heat in leg, just extreme swelling, not really ouchy on palpitation, but he wasn't much into it when I picked up the leg to examine it. Once again, no outward signs of injury/puncture/bite/cuts. I took his temp twice on 2 different thermometers, both times he was 99.6, completely normal for him.

I debated it a bit, and ended up calling the vet. The extreme swelling with no apparent cause (he was on vacation for the week!) and reluctance to bear weight really worried me (this wasn't presenting as he normally does with a sprain). Plus, though I wrote off the first episode as a sprain from being crazy, this is the second time within 6 days that he has come up with extreme swelling and reluctance to bear weight on that leg (worse this time). I was also worried about him causing problems with the right front leg that is recovering from a bow since he is putting his weight on that one so much. When the vet called back and we talked, she felt it was something she should check out just to stay safe, especially since we had a few horses at neighboring barns just diagnosed with ehrlichia this past week.

Vet came out and examined him. She poked and prodded and he was okay until she picked up the left front. He reacted when she flexed the fetlock, and reacted again when she really flexed the knee, and was even worse when she so much as touched the knee while he was flexed. Checked other legs and didn't find anything except the swelling on the right front tendon (expected..), and was at a loss. We ended up drawing blood on him. She prescribed coldhosing 1-2x daily and bute at 1gram 2x/day through Monday morning. She wants me to call Monday with an update on him. If he's the same or worse, she'll send the blood out to do titers and see if anything comes up. She had no idea what it could be though, but felt that it seemed like the joints and tendon sheath was mostly affected. Went down the list- severe sprain, tickborne, infection from something, hoof-related, etc but she really couldn't tell at this point. Hopefully the bute/coldhosing will make a difference.

Ideas? He's never, in 5 years, presented this way with any sprains (and we've had our share...). She said it could be something in the hoof, but honestly I don't think that is what it is- I've only once in 5 years had anything hoof-related in him and it was 2-3 years ago, he had 2 mild abscesses in both hind feet and never showed any signs (and he can be a wimp about pain). Knock on wood though, he's been through tons of diagnostics for leg problems and nothing has ever come up in the hooves. Its always possible I guess, and since he has pads on she didn't get a look at the hoof itself. No heat, though. I'm not sure what to think- this is the second time in 6 days.

[EqTrainer]

Cellulitis?

[Mary in Area 1]

My bet is that it's an abcess. The bute chilled it out for a few days, but now it's back with a vengence. The swelling could be from not putting weight on it at all and the circulation is impaired. If you flex a leg with a lot of swelling, it will push the swelling up into the knee joint and it really hurts.

I'd pull the shoe, poke around and get radiographs of the foot. I personally HATE natural balance shoes and think a good farrier can mimic the good parts of them without having the problems they incur--like really bruising the soles if they are not PERFECTLY aligned with the pedal bone and/or not reshod often enough (often every 4 weeks.)

Jingles for you. Hope it is something easily treatable like an abcess!

[Bogie]

I also would guess abscess. Sometimes at the beginning the pain can be intermittent. Non weight bearing with toe pointed down like you describe usually means an abscess in my experience.

Is there an increased digital pulse? Did the vet test for sensitivity in the hoof with hoof testers?

I'd call your farrier.

In the meantime, did your vet suggest soaking in epsom salts?

[HiddenStars826]

Ugh, I'll be so mad if I end up having to pull a shoe that was put on about 2 weeks ago! Seriously, that is SO like my horse.

There is already swelling in the knee before flexing, so it makes sense that flexion would be painful.
Vet said there was an increased pulse on both fronts, but seemed not worried since one leg is recovering from a bow and the other is so swollen- she said it was expected.
No hoof testers used- can you use them over pads? I feel like it wouldn't work much? She didn't mention pulling shoes when she was here, nor did she mention soaking the foot.

I won't be able to get in touch with my farrier until Monday at this point, so if we have no answers by then I'll give him a call.
What would radiographs of the foot show me? Is that really warranted in a situation where there is no heat in the foot, no temp, no signs of founder etc? I'm not experienced in hoof issues, so I don't understand what that would do at this point?

My vet literally had no ideas/suggestions. Her plan was the bute 2x/day and coldhosing until Monday, when we will see where we are at. Its the first time using this practice, so I don't have much knowledge of this particular vet. My regular vet is about an hour away and would have charged an obscene amount for an emergency weekend call (if they came at all), whereas this practice has regular hours on Saturday and is about 10 minutes away from us. Time will tell if I continue using them for emergencies, depending on what happens here I guess.

[EventerAJ]

I'd also guess an abscess.

It is not uncommon to have some mild swelling upwards in the leg, associated with an abscess. Ask me how I know. I've called my vet out on at least 2 occasions, in near-panic that my horse had a horrendous career-threatening soft tissue injury... only to pop an abscess. :rolleyes:

The abscess is a mysterious beast. Sometimes it will cause intermittent lameness for days, often presenting with swollen blood vessels in the tendon area (misperceived as tendon/susp inflammation!). Then the horse could be acutely 3-legged lame, with bounding throbbing pulse; hopefully it bursts quickly, drains, and horse is all hunky-dory. Otherwise, you soak and wrap for days, praying and offering sacrifices to the stinky black pus gods. Sometimes when it finally pops, all is not over: the resulting crater is subject to possible reinfection for weeks (or months?!) as the foot slowly grows out. Often this coincides with the muddiest, dirtiest possible time of year, when stalls are limited, or vetrap is not on sale. The original cause is a vague "bruise" from an unknown surface contaminant, a hot nail your farrier couldn't possibly have committed, or the villainous "gravel." And oh happiness, all the soaking to make the foot soft and encourage l'abscess to show itself...makes the foot soft and prone to re-bruising. :sigh:

But when faced with the "unknown," it sure is nice to learn your three-legged horse is only suffering from a temporary, curable evil. :)

[Bogie]

No, if you have pads you can't use hoof testers. You will need to pull the shoe to test and if it's an abscess, to treat.

The WORST abscess I've ever seen on any of my horses occurred last year when gravel got under one pad and then worked its way up to come out the coronary band near the heel bulb. This was a case of intermittent lameness and, because my horse had pads, I swore it couldn't be an abscess.

As for the vet? The very first time I had a horse with an abscess I called my then vet because I thought my horse had a broken leg. She x-rayed his foot, blocked his leg, etc. came up with nothing (for $400). My farrier showed up a day or so later and laughed because he figured it out in two minutes. Now I have a new vet. My current vet usually talks me off the ceiling by reminding me that sudden and acute lameness where the horse's toe is down, most normally is an abscess. The good news is that if it is an abscess, it's easily treatable.

Here's my blog post on it: http://equineink.wordpress.com/2008/06/22/treating-the-dreaded-abscess/

Ugh, I'll be so mad if I end up having to pull a shoe that was put on about 2 weeks ago! Seriously, that is SO like my horse.

There is already swelling in the knee before flexing, so it makes sense that flexion would be painful.
Vet said there was an increased pulse on both fronts, but seemed not worried since one leg is recovering from a bow and the other is so swollen- she said it was expected.
No hoof testers used- can you use them over pads? I feel like it wouldn't work much? She didn't mention pulling shoes when she was here, nor did she mention soaking the foot.

I won't be able to get in touch with my farrier until Monday at this point, so if we have no answers by then I'll give him a call.
What would radiographs of the foot show me? Is that really warranted in a situation where there is no heat in the foot, no temp, no signs of founder etc? I'm not experienced in hoof issues, so I don't understand what that would do at this point?

My vet literally had no ideas/suggestions. Her plan was the bute 2x/day and coldhosing until Monday, when we will see where we are at. Its the first time using this practice, so I don't have much knowledge of this particular vet. My regular vet is about an hour away and would have charged an obscene amount for an emergency weekend call (if they came at all), whereas this practice has regular hours on Saturday and is about 10 minutes away from us. Time will tell if I continue using them for emergencies, depending on what happens here I guess.

[HiddenStars826]

Today's update.

I arrived at about noon time, and he was in his paddock, bearing weight on the leg okay and walking around seemingly alright. He wasn't normal on it, but at least he was moving okay. He had 1gram bute in his breakfast (fed about 8ish). I checked the leg and it was still extremely swollen, but with only some heat on the inside of the leg about 2 inches above fetlock and the swelling is more pronounced there as well. Took him out to coldhose for 15 minutes, and during that time noticed the hair in that area was separated a bit/different- I tried to get a good look at it but it was hard with the hair and while coldhosing, so after hosing I let the leg dry a bit and clipped it. After clipping, he has a few small marks on his leg that looks like they were small cuts/scrapes at some point, but they don't look recent- they've healed up and look a few days old, at least. Very easy to miss on just an inspection of the unclipped leg, because even with a clip they weren't too obvious.

I don't know if they are related at all or not, or when they occured, etc. because I never saw signs of anything on the leg. When he's turned out, he wears bellboots/splintboots on the backs only (due to him chopping up a back leg with a shoe about a month ago), and when I do anything with him (even handwalking) he gets either front SMBs, polos, or splint boots as well so whatever was done happened in the stall or in his paddock.

So swelling only slightly better, but bearing weight, attitude completely normal. I had 3 different friends look at him today, none of which thought it seemed like an abscess to them- one of them a vet tech with years of experience with an equine vet practice. I still don't discount the theory, but I don't feel like its an abscess either. I'll ask the vet though when I call tomorrow afternoon to see what she thinks, and call farrier tomorrow afternoon as well for sure. He was poulticed and wrapped tonight, and has a bute in dinner and tomorrow's breakfast.

[Mary in Area 1]

Your vet could easily do progressive nerve blocking to find out where the pain is coming from. First do the heel. Often, an abcess will be in that area and the horse will be completely sound. Sometimes you have to block the whole foot to find an abcess in the toe or coronary area.

If the horse is still lame, you know it's not in the hoof, and you start up the leg to find the area of pain.

I still bet it's an abcess.

[decorum]

The WORST abscess I've ever seen on any of my horses occurred last year when gravel got under one pad and then worked its way up to come out the coronary band near the heel bulb. This was a case of intermittent lameness and, because my horse had pads, I swore it couldn't be an abscess.

[/URL]



Gravelling is an old wives tale, it does not work it's way up through the coronary band, pus does. Maybe gravel caused a bruise that then abscessed but gravel did not follow the abscess path.

Ann Szolas

[FindersKeepers]

sure, could be an abcess, but I'd be more inclined to think foreign body in his leg. Could be a splinter that's really in there deep, causing an acute localized infection. Wouldn't necessarily show on the outside.

It could also be something as serious as cellutlitis. I would talk to your vet Monday about maybe adding an antibiotic to his regimen...just to start covering that base...

[joharavhf]

I have no idea, so I'm just here to jingle for your little guy to get better soon so you can do something useful with him :D

BTW, is this horse cushings??? I noticed that my old Arab gelding started having "issues" getting over things when he was diagnosed with Cushings.

[HiddenStars826]

Thanks Johara, we appreciate the jingles! I just read your post and I'll send some jingles back to ya.

When the vet came out a few weeks ago to give him his ultrasound/vaccines (rhino/flu and rabies) he said he wasn't too worried about anything else with the horse. He didn't winter as well as he used to this year, but none of our horses did on the property, so not too concerned. That vet has known this boy for years now, so he has no problem telling me what he thinks we are looking at and never even mentioned anything metabolic. So we never tested him or anything, but vet didn't seem to feel the need.

Speaking of, I meant to include that into his history...
March 9- vaccinated for rabies and rhino/flu (but no idea what vaccines were used, probably should find out?)
March 18- dewormed with iverectin/praz mix- I wanna say Equimax? I forgot to look at the record at the barn earlier.
Not sure if they are related, but since his life history is there, why not?!

[LuvMyTB]

The extreme swelling, heat, and the leg being painful to the touch makes me think cellulitis, or even lymphangitis--although lymphangitis usually presents with a very high temperature.

[Ghazzu]

I'd have abscess up there on my list.

[tradewind]

I vote abcess. My horse got one last year and his entire leg blew up as it took over a week and a half to blow out. It was hugely swollen and hot almost all the way up to the knee.I was convinced my vet missed something as I had never had an abcess in 30 years that did that. The darn thing finally popped right before my husband was going to have me hospitalized for a total nervous breakdown! Good luck to your horse and to you!

[Bogie]

If it's not an abscess then my next thought would be cellulitis, especially as you found some small cuts on his leg. I had a friend recently who thought a cut had healed over and her horse ended up with a nasty infection. However, that's something your vet would probably have thought of when he/she looked at your horse.

Keep us posted -- I'm curious to find out what you learn.

[HiddenStars826]

Today's update-better.
He was stalled today until about 2pm, it was so cold and windy today!

I wrapped his legs last night, which seemed like a good idea in theory but now I'm not so sure. Elbow-knee still pretty swollen, where the leg was wrapped the swelling DID go down at least by half, but still swollen around the tendon. Below the wrap (mid-pastern to hoof) was some swelling still. He's moving okay, bright and happy still (except when his hay blew away and he had to chase it- no happy pony there! Which tells me mentally he's just fine ;) ). There was still a good amount of heat on the leg though, even after he had been unwrapped and moving around outside for about 2 hours.
I managed to miss the office hours today when I called, the vet had JUST left. Grr. But she's in tomorrow during the day, so I'll call then since its also my day off and I'll be around. I have a call out to my farrier, but I'm waiting for a return.

The marks on his leg weren't visible when the vet was out on Saturday. They actually weren't visible until I was hosing his leg off yesterday and crouched down with my face right next to them (not smart, so I applaud him for behaving!). I clipped him after that yesterday to get a better look, and they are still easy to miss (saw my clip job 1 day in today- no wonder he didn't want the clippers near him...talk about a bad job!). Its no wonder the vet didn't see those Saturday pre-clipping and during the huge swelly mess, they were covered by the long winter fuzz.

I just want answers!!!!

[Jenn2674]

About two months ago I brought my gelding in from the paddock and immediately noticed his right hind was swollen and very hot on the outside of his cannon bone. I couldn't feel anything but cold hosed it and handwalked and trotted him. He wasn't off at all. The coldhosing took the swelling down but I didn't ride. I left him on his normal schedule, out during the day in at night because he is an older horse. The next day go out and same exact thing. Swollen and hot. I thought I felt a little bit of something so I clipped his leg and sure enough, there was an cut. It wasn't a major cut although it did have some dried blood on it so I scrubbed it really good. It went down with cold hosing again so I decided to ride him. The horse was totally sound. He ended up with that hot swollen leg for several days. I don't know why such a minor cut could cause such swelling and heat but it did. Thankfully my horse was totally sound but maybe clip and see if you can get a really good luck at the whole area.

I wanted to ad that the reason why I couldn't see or feel anything the first day is because he had such a huge winter coat. That coat could be hiding something.

[LuvMyTB]

The pattern of swelling after wrapping you describe still makes me think cellulitis. Swelling from cellulitis can sometimes take weeks to subside, especially above/below where you're wrapping.

[HiddenStars826]

So its been a couple days since I've updated, since I've been working CRAZY hours.

Tuesday's update. I didn't bute him Monday evening or Tuesday morning, I totally forgot somehow while mixing his feed. Some of the swelling went down around the pastern, but there was still a good amount of hard swelling at the knee and above (to elbow), and around the tendon was a softer swelling. Still moving around okay, but a bit stiff. He'd put weight on the leg, but significantly less than the other leg. Still warmth on the inside of the cannon.
I called the vet to tell her my concerns regarding how it was still not as improved as I'd like to see, and her advice was another day or so of bute/coldhosing/etc. Uh, ok...worth a shot.

Fast forward to Wednesday. He got bute Tues PM and Wed AM, I saw him around 4-ish Wednesday afternoon. Absolutely no difference in the swelling since Tuesday. At all. I picked up each foot to do my routine check of his feet/shoes, and he took an extra second to pick up the RF, then let me hold it up for about 2 seconds before trying to yank it out of my hand and take the weight off the left front (not like him at all, he is very polite about his feet). Once his right front was down, he transferred all his weight over to it off of the left front. I went to the back legs, and found from pastern down to coronary band on both legs (but worse on the left hind) the soft swelling. Not really extreme, but enough for me to start my brain in high gear. No reactions to me poking and prodding though. At this point, I was all for calling the vet, left a message for her. Added bute to Wednesday PM and Thursday AM grain.

Thursday update: I worked 6a-4:30p today, and ended up missing the vet's call. Figures. My friend called me while she was at the barn and stated that the horse looke very stiff all over and in her words, "looked miserable". Great. I arrive at barn, he'd just been brought inside from turnout all day. His grain and hay was in his stall, he was in for about 10 minutes. 80% of his grain was still in his bucket and he'd moved onto the hay. I panic, because he scarfs down his grain normally. I gave him a bit more in another bucket and he ate it, so I'm hoping it had to do with the bute in there...
Inspection time. Knee still on the swollen side and hard, around tendon still soft swelling but better than yesterday- you can actually start to define the leg today. Back legs, however, from above fetlock to coronary band were puffy. Still warmth around the inside of cannon. Puffy is okay for him when he's been inside all day, but he was outside since early this morning. I walked him around a bit, and he looked stiff on the front- not striding out far on the left front and he was catching his heels with the left hind, which isn't normal since we worked with the shoe placement on him- he hasn't caught himself in weeks, and now he did a few times today. Trotted him about 20 feet to see what he looked like when moving a bit more, and he was VERY stiff. No bobbing, but very short on that left front and short and stilted in the back. Not normal, even with the restricted motion he's been confined to of late. I spent a while at the barn tonight and upon observation, he's spending a lot of time rubbing/itching/whatever that left front with his nose, which tells me it is really irritating him. Not sensitive to the touch.
Vet's message to me earlier basically stated there were 3 options she'd recommend at this point. Option 1)continue what we are doing, bute/col therapy for another few days. Option2)she can come out, reevaluate, and go from there. Option 3)get ultrasound. In her voicemail she stated that she really thinks it is something such as a tendonitis/desmitis, and injuries such as those take time to heal. Uh, hello, obviously- I AM 6 months into a 12-month vacation with him from a bow...But, here's the thing. I have had my share of soft tissue injuries. I know my tendon injuries, and my horse's legs (intimately, at this point!), and my gut tells me this is not a tendon issue at all. It was telling me that before I even found the back leg swelling.

If I can actually get in touch with her tomorrow, there will be a nice long conversation. There WILL be a vet coming to see him, I am gonna have her run that blood from him and do some tests, and hopefully get some answers. He didn't eat the bute from tonight's grain, and I didn't bother buting him in the morning. Its obviously not helping anything at this point, and for the amount of bute he's had pumped into him plus the strange weather changes, I'm slightly paranoid about digestive issues now with him.

Depending on what she says over the phone though, there is a good chance I'll be calling my other vet (who I've used 5 years and for all lamenesses, but didn't this time because these guys are much closer).

[Bogie]

Depending on what she says over the phone though, there is a good chance I'll be calling my other vet (who I've used 5 years and for all lamenesses, but didn't this time because these guys are much closer).

That's the first thing I'd do. It's been a week or so since your horse developed this issue and it's not any better AND your vet has no idea why it's happening. You need another set of eyes on this.

Your horse seems to be in distress. Don't you have your vet's direct line? I'd be upset if my horse was not improving and my vet had called only once and left a message. Maybe it's not a big deal and just looks like one but there are times when I think it's really important to be able to speak directly to your vet and this is one of them.

[HiddenStars826]

Small update so far.
My friend's horse was a bit NQR last night, and ended up with a slight temp. She called me this morning wanting to know if I wanted her to pencil my horse in for an appointment too, since she has the vet coming out today anyway. Gladly, please DO have him look. Another vet (same practice) is coming out tonight an he's definitely going to be looking at my horse, so I'll have another set of eyes. Unfortunately he's coming around 5-5:30, so it wll be too late to call the other vet by then. I've seen him work before and am comfortable with it, so hopefully he'll have some answers.

Further updates will be waiting til Sunday at this point as I'm not near a computer for the rest of the evening and away at a competition tomorrow. I'm really hoping there will be this miraculous change when I get to the barn in a few hours...

[HiddenStars826]

So its been about a week since I've last posted for you all.
Vet came out last Friday (same practice, different vet than before though) to deal with my horse and friend's horse (with the temp).
Felt that friend's horse had either ehrlichia or lyme, prescribed doxy, overnight horse had huge improvement and has continued to improve, leading vet to believe it was ehrlichia. Horse stopped his round of doxy today.

Examined my horse and again, no idea what was going on. Said it could be a lower grade cellulitis issue, or maybe not. Symptoms to him just weren't making sense. Heck, they don't make sense to me either. Blood was pulled and vet ran a CBC and what he called a 40x, which he said tests for lyme and ehrlichia (I guess it was for dogs but was approved for horses too?). He didn't put him on antibiotics at the time.

Saturday afternoon the results came back on my horse and the other horse, and both the CBC and lyme/ehrlichia tests came back normal for both horses. But he didn't tell us what normal was, which actually didn't occur to me until yesteray evening...oops.

Bottom line is, my horse is still swollen around the LF tendon (behind cannon), and all 4 legs have a decent amount of swelling/fluid from the pastern down. Again, not enough to be obvious to just someone glancing at him, but upon closer inspection and feeling the legs, its noticeable. No heat, no tenderness. Very sore yesterday on the left front even with minimal (think 10 minutes) walking. He's confined to his 20x20 paddock space and I wrapped him last night, though I don't think it did any good (haven't been yet to see).

At this point there's a call out to the vet who saw him last week, as well as my other vet who knows his history, etc. to get a second opinion or more thoughts. I'm hoping they'll get back to me at some point this afternoon so I don't wait until Monday, but its been such a pain to get in touch with either since I work from 6am until at least 4:30/5ish daily.

[EqTrainer]

I thought from your original post that it sounded like cellulitis.

But I am now remembering when.. EVA? was going around here. Horses had symptoms like you describe. For some reason it was all hush hush.

[Bogie]

I am so sorry you (and your horse) still have no resolution. It's very frustrating when the vets cannot identify what's wrong.

At this point there's a call out to the vet who saw him last week, as well as my other vet who knows his history, etc. to get a second opinion or more thoughts. I'm hoping they'll get back to me at some point this afternoon so I don't wait until Monday, but its been such a pain to get in touch with either since I work from 6am until at least 4:30/5ish daily.

From this statement and what you've posted before I think your vets are too hard to get in touch with. When I've had problems with my horses (and my Trakehner had a mysterious illness last year, sick for 10 days and ultimately died) my vets encouraged me to call me on their cell phones and the lead vet at Tufts called me at home in the evening to give me updates. They went out of their way to be accessible. Sadly, my horse had a blood clot near the poll (essentially a stroke) so there wasn't anything they could do but the vet at Tufts called or emailed me consistently until the necropsy revealed the cause, even though it took 7-8 weeks.

I guess I wouldn't be too happy with a vet that is not accessible when I have a problem.

[HiddenStars826]

Well, finally, a good update. I'm rather excited, but afraid at the same time because I don't know if it will last.
Arrived at the barn and 3 legs were fairly normal- no swelling/fluidy feel, heat, etc. 4th leg still has some swelling, but it is a "manageable" amount just near the top where he had an old bow years ago, and doesn't bother him when I mess with it. He was evenly standing on all 4 legs for the most part, minus every once in a while he'll take the weight off the one that was bothering him for a few minutes here and there. I really hope it stays better like this, because I was at my wits end with this.

So yay for a good update!!!

Downside is, didn't get a callback from either vet. I'm more than slightly p*ssed about one vet not calling back, I kinda expected the other vet to not call back (sounds ridiculous, but when I called I didn't present it as a "need to call back immediately" case to him). The first vet, who is the one who came out Friday, I'm mad about not getting a call back. The office staff said he was on calls all afternoon, but seriously- the truth is that the office staff takes it upon themselves to select which messages to relay. I'll be calling tomorrow for sure and it won't be a pleasant call. Office staff pulled the same crap on my friend the other day when she called for her horse. Why not switch, you ask? Unfortunately I'm pretty limited on choices. I use them because they are extremely close to our barn thus great for colic emergencies, etc. The other vet used to be primary, but is 45+ minutes away from this barn now so is used for lameness, etc etc and I've honestly never had problems in the past with him when I needed him to come out. The other main vet the area uses is a practice that I'll never use on my horses unless I have no choice, for many reasons that I won't get into. Pretty limiting.

But, just wanted to give you all an upate. I really want to know the deal now, since it literally has gone away in the span of 24 hours. A few days ago one of the other horses was pulled out of the pasture and had swelling on both back legs from fetlocks down and a runny nose (clear), confirming my theory that we definitely had something systemic go through our barn. What it was, who knows, but hopefully it is gone and won't come back.

[HiddenStars826]

EVA, huh? Hmm. I'm wondering maybe yes to respiratory something? I just searched for EVA and really couldn't find anything. Then, the search feature and I really don't get along.

My thoughts on this revolve around a few main things. One, my horse got his rhino/flu vaccine the day his tendon was checked, so March 9th. Around that same time, we had a new horse on the property briefly (about 2 weeks, maybe a bit less). New horse was literally just tossed into the field with the herd, no precautions or anything taken (believe me, we all flipped out). He was at the farm down the road before that, where he had been living for maybe 2 months since coming up from Virginia. God only knows what he was vaccinated for and when, or what he could have picked up just from living at other farm.

I won't lie, myself and a few others think whatever it was is related to new horse. About a week after he was here, we started noticing some horses coughing and sneezing more, but I myself wrote it of as allergies and didn't think anything else at the time. But now, in hindsight...all symptoms (swollen legs, fever in other horse, runny nose, coughing, etc etc) seem to trace back and originate around the time new horse was there. Whether it really does relate or not, who knows (we may never know at this point), but it makes one wonder. And yes, before anyone says it, you can believe me when I say we ripped the BO a new one for turning the horse out with everyone else.

[readytorodeo]

It sounds like he may have strained his knee. The knees are often exposed to strain due to stiffness and problems in the shoulder area. Bursas become exposed to toxns that initiate inflamation. Due to the troubled shoulder area a decrease in circulation of blood occurs in the joints, which results in decreased synovia. This causes a lack of kubrication to the joints. I would tart him on PC1 and PC4 and GASTROMIN from Swedish Horse Power Products. This will stimulate te blood flow through chest and legs. The toxins in the bursa will be discharged through the intestines. PM me if you want more info:)

[Bogie]

It's hard to be in a place with not many choices. You have to do the best you can.

Is there one vet there that you particularly like to work with? I'd ask him/her for a way to contact them directly, explaining that you've had difficulty working through the office staff. If you don't abuse your calling rights then maybe you can figure out a work around. Or, maybe one of the vets uses email and you can correspond with them that way.

Good luck and glad your horse is looking better.

Downside is, didn't get a callback from either vet. I'm more than slightly p*ssed about one vet not calling back, I kinda expected the other vet to not call back (sounds ridiculous, but when I called I didn't present it as a "need to call back immediately" case to him). The first vet, who is the one who came out Friday, I'm mad about not getting a call back. The office staff said he was on calls all afternoon, but seriously- the truth is that the office staff takes it upon themselves to select which messages to relay. I'll be calling tomorrow for sure and it won't be a pleasant call. Office staff pulled the same crap on my friend the other day when she called for her horse. Why not switch, you ask? Unfortunately I'm pretty limited on choices. I use them because they are extremely close to our barn thus great for colic emergencies, etc. The other vet used to be primary, but is 45+ minutes away from this barn now so is used for lameness, etc etc and I've honestly never had problems in the past with him when I needed him to come out. The other main vet the area uses is a practice that I'll never use on my horses unless I have no choice, for many reasons that I won't get into. Pretty limiting.

[EqTrainer]

Oh dear. I either didn't catch that the horse had just been vaccinated or it wasn't noted?

Anytime you have systemic leg swelling after vaccination it's time to get concerned. Vasculitis is a possibility and not a good thing.

I still wonder now, given the other horses history, if he did not bring you a case of EVA. I also might wait a month or two and pull some fresh Coggins. Not to be paranoid, but ..

Here is some good info:

http://books.google.com/books?id=fo9ESPsxwjoC&pg=PA341&lpg=PA341&dq=vasculitis+equine&source=bl&ots=6kA0KiRXkV&sig=_YYprL06s2MTXgc-5TFIKvUwsl8&hl=en&ei=4wDaSe74J6PNlQecpZneDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#PPA344,M1

[Triplicate]

Sounds like you need a second opinion from another vet.

[findeight]

Since you have had so many problems with this one...is there any chance you can get some better diagnostics from a clinic where they can really take a look? Most of them have the equipment to run most of the tests right there and don't have to send out for specific testing on the blood and than wait for results. It is more costly up front but saves in the long run because you can stop chasing symptoms and go after what is really wrong.

Forget this most recent problem for a minute, it kind of sounds like there may be other things going on with the bows, recurring lamness and all. Many suspensory issues are missed when more obvious things show up-as in they found a bow so stopped looking for anything else. Could even have a small fracture in an area that was never subject to rads because the problem was assumed to be elsewhere.

Hestitate to recommend this usually but...perhaps you need to investigate a long acting tranq for this one so he does not keep aggravating whatever is really wrong or, maybe, reinjuring the same suspensory that has been missed several times. Get him to stay quiet and really heal.

Now, for this current problem, the swelling, heat, iffy appetite? That does sound like a systemic problem or illness and the lack of appetite is something I would really be concerned about. Related to the new horse or not, this is a time of year when they seem to get alot of little bugs. And the vets that did not call back are knee deep in the little spring time bugs, foaling season and spring colics so I doubt they are blowing you off. But it would seem prudent to get to the bottom of all this and take a trip to a clinic.

[HiddenStars826]

I'm addressing as many as I can here. It was definitely not a sprained/strained anything, knee/tendon/whatever. I strongly think it was systemic, to the point where I'd bet a good amount of money on it (why else would I have all other legs swollen too?).

Problem is, I don't have the money to bet, or go much further right now! As of right now, there are no swollen legs. Everything is normal in that sense. For all of the old/other issues related to tendons, lameness, etc., further diagnostics would be fantastic. I never thought suspensory, no one ever suggested it before for the front end issues. Hm. However, unfortunately there is no way anything further will be happening for a while in that area, since I'm basically broke right now from the vet bills recently (tendon ultrasound/etc, 2 vet visits/bloodwork on this issue, plus the rest of shots coming up in a few weeks). He's got a while before going back to "work" anyway, and suspensory issue or not, he needs to start moving more than he was able to or else I'm looking at other musculo-skeletal issues too. He's an older boy, and being cooped up into 20x20 isn't helping him mentally or physically in the long run, especially during spring! I will definitely keep the suggestion in mind, and totally agree that it would be a better idea to just drag him to a clinic. Heck, if it was in my power 5 years ago I'd have done it then, but alas...

Yes, it will probably be necessary to tranq him at this point. I've got him back on a calming supplement which worked in the beginning for him before I took him off of it, and I want to see if that makes a difference before going to something else. But yes, tranqs were spoken of early on and highly possible if he continues at the rate he's going. I'm not a fan either, but if it makes the difference between re-killing the leg and keeping him quiet enough to actually HELP the leg, then, well. You get it ;D

Haven't read the entire thing yet, but there is a thread on the yellow board about reactions to vaccines right now- many people have seen the swollen legs thing after giving spring shots, I need to take a look at the thread again but I'm almost positive they said its rhino/flu that seems to be the cause. A friend gave me a heads up on it, so my brain is working...
Horse's apetite is definitely normal now! As far as I know, my boy's apetite was only funky one night and seemingly due to the bute added to the grain. The other horse was mainly the one whose apetite went (and he's fine now since his round of doxy).

Thanks for the thought processes and help, everyone. I appreciate it. It seems like the issue might be gone, but JEEZ I want to find out what it is! I'll definitely let you know if we ever solve it.