Good repro vet in Suffolk, Va -FRUSTRATED FOR MARE OWNER. So what would you do now?

[sid]

Can anyone recommend a good repro practice that can travel to a client of mine (mare doesn't travel well)?

I have a lovely client who has had a devil of a time with the practice she's been using for her Arab mare for a breeding to Argosy. ..for almost 3 years.

Year #1: Turns out pre-breeding uterine infection not treated -- conceived and slipped, all three shipments.

Year #2: (mare cleaned up), PG first try. Ultrasounded day 15, 30 and 60 -- delivered twins who died during labor. Such a heartbreak for her and her daughter. Bred unsucessfully twice that season.

I held the LFG over to this year for her (with one "shipment" left on the contract from last year). So she decided to bring the mare here for breeding with the hope of keeping her here through US (we have a high success rate with problem mares).

I don't think this mare is really a "problem". I think the protocal/history of the attending vet in her area is.

We had a very good breeding. Inseminated on a very nice 4 cm follicle that ovulated overnight, but we put the 2nd dose in anyway. On the 2nd AI 2.5 follicle had popped up on the other ovary. Caslicks and put on Regumate post breeding.

Though a lovely mare, she was so bound to her own herd at home (blind in one eye and hasn't been a way from her home and mare friend for over 6 years,) I recommended that she take her home to relieve her stall and fence line weaving -- though she had horses next to her. Put her on 10cc Regumate post breeding and sent her home with instruction for when she should be scanned...and continued scanning looking for possible fertilization of that 2nd follicle.

Just got a call that the mare owner...very depressed. "She did not take." Despite the specific instructions about when to scan (and a high possiblity of twinning), the vet did the scan at only 14 days post breeding which is even early for that first, ovulated 4 cm follicle.

Her vet decided to US her "early" because he couldn't come on day 16. He said he'd return on day 17 and recheck, but if he found nothing to take her off the Regumate and start over. Sounds like he's doing this on his schedule...not what is needed for this breeding timeline.

Granted, his protocal/time line may be fine detecting the outcome of that first follicle that we knew had ovulated during the inseminations, but it would be too early to detect the outcome of the 2nd follicle that may have been fertilized several days after that last insemination (stallion has very good "shelf life" - wink!) -- aha...and this is how we get "undetected" twins.

I feel so darned bad for this gal...she needs a "pro". I told her to please have her vet follow our protocal and NOT to take her off the Regumate at day 17 and recheck for that 2nd follicle...presuming fertilization may have taken place a couple of days after that last insemination.

Oy vey! Sorry for the rant, but I really feel for this gal and wish I could have kept her mare here, but she was better off at home with her buddies.

For those who say stallion owners don't care...pish tosh. Help me out for this nice gal if you can by giving me a reco for a vet down there who is really accomplished with repro, US and palpation.

TIA

[Signature]

PLEASE PLEASE call The Oaks Equine and Farm Services 757-365-4887. Particularly Dr. Shanna French (one of their four vets on staff).

She is truly unbelievable, has such an incredible passion for the work - she comes at the crack of dawn and on weekends to u/s or inseminate our mares so I don't even have to take off of work. She is insanely dedicated and truly cares about getting mares in foal. She is VERY knowledgable and normally our mares get in foal first try every year (only the older mares with issues perhaps take a few tries). We have literally said if she moved away we would quit breeding. She knows our mares by name because she cares, and she is great about teaching you what she's doing. She wants to teach me to inseminate. We both squeal together when we see a pregnancy on the u/s screen - she just adores the repro work.

We used other vets in the area and had similar experiences to what you describe (it's probably the same one as there was not much choice) - they would not come after hours or on weekends without an emergency fee (mares don't cycle on weekdays only), and we missed several mares with other vets because of things like that. We've never missed one with Dr. French. She is on the ball (and we are careful about watching the mares' behavior, etc) and she comes on the mare's schedule, not when it's convenient for her. She bred one of our mares with frozen on our farm (an hour from her house) at 1am because it was "the right time". We are so spoiled now by their fantastic customer service not only for repro but for routine work and emergencies, that we would likely be sorely disappointed if we had to use someone else. The other vets at the clinic are wonderful as well with the same attitude, and you don't feel like "client number 25662 at 3:00pm". They are also remarkably on time, and they'll even call me at the office when they are on the way so I don't have to take off work and sit at home waiting for a vet that's 3 hours late.

Dr. French was also the one that saved our Hanoverian mare when she aborted and had a retained placenta recently for SIX DAYS (there was a recent topic on this). We took "Abby" to the clinic and Shanna slept in a wheelbarrow by her stall. It was unreal... we truly believe it's only due to her diligence, calling every resource known to man (vet schools, specialists, etc) and doing all she could that this mare survived. This mare is also not the trusting sort and is typically not good with strangers, but when we picked her up she was attached to Shanna despite all the constant treatment, flushing, shots, etc she was having to get. They really care about the animals.

Please call them, there is no other vet in the area (or likely anywhere) like them. I've had horses for 20 years and never found one. :winkgrin: By the length of this post you can tell how convictedly we feel about them.

[blackstallion2]

I've always used John Sangenario of Dominion Equine in Suffolk. He's excellent.

[sid]

Super..thanks to you both. I will call my client first thing in the a.m. I feel so darned bad for her. Lovely woman with a lovely horse who is breeding for her daughter who is a terrific rider. They just don't know a darned thing about breeding and I try to educate as best I can. When you have a vet working against what we know needs to be done, it's horribly frustrating for me and WAY too costly for them.

[Philliab]

Another plug for Dr. John at Dominion Equine Clinic. I've been very happy with him and all their vets.

[sid]

Hmmm. she tells me "Dr. John" no last name is the vet..at Dominion. Ooops...

[blackstallion2]

Well, by all means, try another vet, like the one suggested at The Oaks. But, I stand by Dr. John. If you had mentioned any other vet, I might have understood the frustration. You can email him your "protocol" or call him and discuss the mare and her issues with him directly and see if anything is getting lost in translation going through the mare owner. Just a suggestion.

[sid]

Thanks. From what I understand, "Dr. John" was not in that practice until last year, so he was not involved with her prior problems. Perhaps the owner did not give him our notes about this two-follicle breeding.

[Daydream Believer]

I would suggest either Dr Shanna French of the Oaks or Dr. Christine Starer of Coastal Equine. I would not recommend Dominion Equine for anything at all. I have had enough negative experiences myself with them to feel qualified in saying they are not vets I want near my horses or doing repro work of all things. Don't even get me started on the new young vet there. BTW, Dr. John has been in that practice for a long long time so if there were problems, he was responsible.

We work here with Coastal Equine and have had very good luck.

I will also suggest that if she'd rather hand it over to someone else to worry about, we offer breeding services and can tease, etc... here at our farm. This is what we do.

[blackstallion2]

He has had a number of vets working for him in the last 10 years that I have used them. I don't think it's fair to blame him for the mare's failure to conceive on this breeding when all whichever vet examined her did was *not find an embryo*. I agree 100% with DB on some of the other vets who have worked for him. On the other hand..... Donna made an excellent post a few weeks back pleading with mare owners to please EDUCATE THEMSELVES! before going about the business of trying to breed their mares. In this case, it would have been best for the mare to stay with Sid until safe in foal, or, please have her take DB up on the offer to manage getting her mare in foal. Both of you, Sid and DB, are professional experts who are very very successful at what you do and a mare like this needs that expertise. :yes:

[Daydream Believer]

Thanks blackstallion. I do a lot of breeding here and we do know what we are doing. The mare could come here and board until she is safely in foal and go home. I also would not mind helping this client of Sid's and talking to her on the phone. If she really wants to do it herself, I really think she should try another practice known for having vets who do a lot of repro work like the Oaks or Coastal Equine.

[sid]

I've been handholding and educating and the mare owner since the twin debacle and agreed to bring her here for breeding through US (and beyond if needed).

I'm just sorry the mare was so distraught having to be away from her own buddies that I felt she would be better off going home prior to ultrasound. I was concerned about her incessent stallwalking and weaving (which she apparently does not do at home). Most horses quickly adjust, she never did. Even even with a small turnout paddock and being nose to nose with a horse she liked.

DB - I'm only 3 hrs. from her so she could haul back up here for diagnostics, but frankly the whole point of sending her home was to reduce her stress level. Thank you for your offer, but I doubt she be any less stressed at your place than mine. She's such a sweet mare, but I think very insecure because of her blind eye and having not been away from home since they got her 6 years ago.

I'll discuss with the owner today and pass on the info I've gleaned here.

As far as "Dr. B", he has kindly offered to handle the mare at no charge to the owner due to the past problems. Nevertheless, I can't see why anyone would suggest an US at 14 days, rechecking at 17 days then pull off Regumate...esp. with a mare who has a history of twinning. That 2nd follicle (if viable), if fertilized, could only be 14 days and missed.

I'm going to suggest that if her vet does not comply with a later US, to find one who will. It's not as if we're now in July and there isn't time to get her bred back in a reasonable amount of time, if in fact she did not conceive. This was an excellent breeding. In fact, the first insemination was done about 20 minutes after Argosy was collected -- and he has super-high conception rates even with difficult mares. If she didn't catch, her vet should be discussisng a biopsy. While they presented her with a clean culture, no cytology was ordered.

I don't want this client throwing good $$ down the drain.

[YankeeLawyer]

Just a suggestion - SID mentioned this mare is particularly herd bound because she is blind in one eye and is more comfortable with her buddies. If it were my mare, I would send her with her best buddy to a good breeding operation to be bred so as to minimize the stress on the mare. (I recently sent both my mares together to my vet's facility to foal out, even though one mare is not due until a month after the first, to minimize stress (mare #1 is younger, not familiar with that farm, and BFF with mare #2, who is like a rock). As a result, they settled in immediately - no fanfare whatsoever - and have been calm and happy throughout.)

I think the owners would get a better result (i.e., a pregnancy) if the mare were being tended to by competent professionals and it has to be less expensive to send the two out than it is to throw good money after bad at home.

[sid]

YL -- yes, that was discussed, but the MO did not want to pay for the extra board. Right now, it is more about finding a very good repro vet to check her keeping her "history" in mind. I just got off the phone with the MO and she will be contacting Dr. French tomorrow.

If she IS empty, the MO will bring her back with her buddy (after they do another culture, cytology and possibly a biopsy). As I look at the culture results, it seems no anaerobic culture was performed either and it was an anaerobic that caused her problems year #1.

Oy.

[blackstallion2]

We'll be jingling for you - that a single viable embryo is found and all goes well from there.

[Justbay1]

We have used Dr. "John" Sanginario at Dominion Equine for all of repro needs for more than 10 years. He has diligently worked to get all of mares in foal every year, including very difficult ones. He has been willing to come out at all hours of the mornings and nights. Palpate, insemininate, ultrasound on weekends as well. Whatever it takes.

If someone has a problem with their mare and unhappy with the sevice, by all means move on to another vet. That is what I would do if there is a problem. But like somone mentioned above, it very well may be a communication problem as well.

I just wanted to add that this has not been out experience with this particular vet/vet practice. We could not be happier with the reproductive services and Live Foal results, which have been excellent.

BTW, he owns the practice and has been there for probably 20 years or more. So I am not sure we are even talking about the same vet if the mare owner says he was not there when she started breeding her mare.:confused:

[sid]

Thanks, Robin. Yes, this puzzles me as well. Bottom line, the decisions are those of the MO, and clearly I may not have all the facts as an SO sitting on the sidelines. Just trying to do what I can urging the US be done at the appropriate time(s) and appropriate diagnostics done if the mare comes up empty once again.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I have to defend the vet a bit in this current situation. 14 days IS standard for preg checking mares the first time. In fact, very experienced vets will often check at 12 days. At 14 days, unless there are many cysts, the pregnancy is either there or not. Now, as far as the possible double ovulation, perhaps the vet could see on the 14 day ultrasound that there was, in fact, not a double ovulation. It is pretty easy to determine a CL at that point, and if he only saw one, then I would assume there was not a double ovulation. A 2.5 follicle appearing after a previous ovulation is usually a follicle that isn't going to ovulate. He did offer to re-check at 17 days, which should have revealed a pregnancy from the alleged second ovulation, if there was one, as that would be ovulations 3 days apart.

One thing I'm not clear about, is why did you breed post ovulation, when it sounds like you had excellent timing with the first breeding? Generally speaking, that is a big no-no if the timing from the first breeding was good (which it sounds like it was, and you also have long-lived semen, according to your post). Breeding post-ov like that, within 24 hours of each other is a recipe for a mare having fluid problems. By putting in that second dose, you are giving her that much more fluid to clear, when in essence the job had already been done with your first dose.
Just curious about that breeding protocol and the rest is food for thought.

[Equinoxfox]

You really should contact Robin Stewart at Woodsend Farm. She has a great breeding program there in Suffolk for the Show Hunters and I am sure she can assist you . Go check out her website..... Quite Lovely...
You will love her and she is full of very helpful knowledge...;)

[sid]

Yes, I know Robin as she bred to Argosy some years ago. Great gal.

Got the news yesterday, the mare's biopsy was a Grade 3. Only a 20-30% chance of carrying to term. I guess living with that infection, then managing to get PG the 2nd year but delivering term twins, took their toll on her uterus.

A shame a biopsy wasn't done sooner. Thanks for all the help/recos.

What would you do, as a SO, now? Walk away? Even though the 3 yr. original breeding contract is now dead as she used 3 shipments for 3 years and came up with no baby, I still feel in some way "obligated" even though cleary the veterinary diagnostics were way "off". I've jumped through hoops..and I'm the one who eventually, diplomatically "pushed" for a better veterinary diagnostics...sometimes successfully, sometimes not until recently.

Sharing her pang of ultimate disappointment, offered her semen by the dose -- to keep the fee low instead of a regular contract -- for a replacement mare (but must be of quality), but haven't figured out what to charge.

Sometimes you just can't walk away when you really like a MO (grin). OTOH, time is also $$ and I'm not a gal who that can have my time eroded by a problem situation going into year #4.

Oy. I'm such a weenie when I really like people.

[blackstallion2]

Sorry to hear it.... :(
the only suggestion I might have at this point is a discount on a youngster already on the ground (if you have one available)?

[Windswept Stable]

Does she have another mare? or perhaps find a lease on another mare to substitute?
I am like you and always want to make it work for the mare owner.

[sid]

Well...big surprise. Just found out this mare had a biopsy in late 2008 (after she did not settle after 2 breedings post the twin foaling). The new vet did not do a new one, but was reading the one I did not know about before the mare was shipped up here to my vet.

For the life of me I cannot understand why the vet at that time did not let the MO know that there was only a 20% chance of the mare carrying to term, even if she did conceive.

Knowing this, would you still offer semen to a replacement mare with no contract (the prior contract is over) at a reduced fee?

Argggh. I want to help, but this just blows my mind.

[Daydream Believer]

For the life of me I cannot understand why the vet at that time did not let the MO know that there was only a 20% chance of the mare carrying to term, even if she did conceive.

Knowing this, would you still offer semen to a replacement mare with no contract (the prior contract is over) at a reduced fee?

Argggh. I want to help, but this just blows my mind.

Knowing the vet(s) involved, I'd not blame the owner who only knew what the vet told her. I would probably offer semen to a replacement mare.

[sid]

I already did...at a greatly reduced fee by the dose. The original contract is over and done (3 year LFG) from that last insemination. They are taking the giftie I have offered because I feel really bad for them. BTW, I never blame MO's, but right now I'm the bleeding heart taking in the pocketbook for an entirely new mare because I was not given this info before the mare shipped up for the last insemination.

I feel bad the MO spent even more $$ for nothing and I spent all this time trying to get this mare PG as well (in mentoring, collecting, housing at "cost").

So literally, I've just offered semen to a new mare at a fraction of what it would be for a new contract, new mare. Had I known the biopsy results, we could have gotten the "replacement mare" bred late last year under the original contract.

Sorry...just frustrated.

[SteeleRdr]

I already did...at a greatly reduced fee by the dose. The original contract is over and done (3 year LFG) from that last insemination. They are taking the giftie I have offered because I feel really bad for them. BTW, I never blame MO's, but right now I'm the bleeding heart taking in the pocketbook for an entirely new mare because I was not given this info before the mare shipped up for the last insemination.

I feel bad the MO spent even more $$ for nothing and I spent all this time trying to get this mare PG as well (in mentoring, collecting, housing at "cost").

So literally, I've just offered semen to a new mare at a fraction of what it would be for a new contract, new mare. Had I known the biopsy results, we could have gotten the "replacement mare" bred late last year under the original contract.

Sorry...just frustrated.

I think you're being very generous! I had my mare (not Renny) bred, she didn't take, couldn't figure out why, so the next January we had the full work-up. Results came back and the vet (different from the last year) said that he'd only breed her if he was doing it himself because it would be REALLY costly to get and keep her in foal. I had a 3 year contract with Carole Lawrence for Resonanz. She graciously let me change to Renny. Renny didn't take...however, on the third year - she left the country! We were supposed to get semen from another stallion she had left in the US, but we could NEVER get in touch with her or anyone else. We were so bummed, and I lost out on $1200 (which is a lot because I paid that myself as a college student at the time).

So I commend you for doing as much as you have!