Deleted. found one- Thanks.

[Jesse'sMom]

DELETED... found one..

[MagicRoseFarm]

I am no expert on Jumper lines, But I think I would start with the C line stallions as they appear in general to me to be more compact and less rectangular.

[Jesse'sMom]

I should have clarified..doesnt have to be any specific discipline or bloodlines.. i am only asking for stallions who will shorten a back. just a list.. nothing else..
thanks:-)

[Oakstable]

I think Pablo is Westphalian.

I bred a long backed Trakehner mare to him and he shortened her considerably.

[vineyridge]

OK, Too cool... A COTH member told me some pedigree info on a mare I own.. Which really blew me away- very excited!
this mare has very strong jumper pedigree..
She has a VERY long back & weak top line & has a high tail set..
I need suggestions for stallions that are KNOWN to improve top lines & length of back. Stallion needs to be approved with Holsteiner or westphalin & must ship semen, dont want to use frozen.
*HELP!*

Can't you tell us who she is and about her pedigree? Would it jinx something?

[Jesse'sMom]

vineryridge i passed on that info because certain people on this board make sarcastic comments, attack others, their horses & their pedigrees & I dont want this to get way off topic about pedigrees & such..all i am looking for is holsteiners and westphalin stallions that do shipped semen that are known for putting on a short back. I didnt put it because i didnt want the drama. I am just looking for stallions that put on short backs. Just a list of stallions.
I can pick what i need from what people recommend.. I think i do very well with what i pick, just was looking for suggestions to shorten a back.

[sixpoundfarm]

I think Freestyle is quite prepotent for what you are looking for, but he is not exactly who I'd recommend for a jumper.

My colt by Vallado has a very good topline and short coupling.

Your website says she is KWPN approved, perhaps look at Navarone, and I know you said no frozen, but Goodtimes is a very good sire for producing short coupled horses, and according to many his semen is excellent.

[ThreeDays]

It would certainly be helpful if you told a bit more about the mare.

Is she TB? Or Holsteiner or Westphalian?

What are you breeding for?

There are lots of stallions that can help out in the topline department and shorten overall length - but you need to understand more about 'why' your mare is long and weak.

You don't want to change too much too fast or you'll wind up with a foal that has a mixed bag of parts. Also - knowing if your mare was bred to be a jumper vs dressage horse will have some impact as well. The two types have totally different mechanisms of how their structure works based on conformation.

[goodmorning]

Also - knowing if your mare was bred to be a jumper vs dressage horse will have some impact as well. The two types have totally different mechanisms of how their structure works based on conformation.

She says in the first post that it's a jumper-bred mare. I'm guessing Holts or West based on stallion criteria.

I *think* know this mare, I tried to buy her but Jesse'sMom got her fist (boooooo!)...anyways, lovely mare....boooo for you getting her and not me! Curious if you are trying to get a hunter or jumper out or her - I think you could get an extremely talented jumper, however, imagine the hunter you could get with the right stallion? Anywhoo - also, maybe look at who her siblings and dam were bred to to give you an idea of niches ;)

[sniplover]

According to her website, the mare is MMB Holsteiner, Westphalin, approved NA/KWPN. Holsteiner sire; Selle Francis damsire, TB dam.

[ThreeDays]

Hmm - well if the SF carries any Alme blood. Make sure your stallion selection doesn't carry any additional crosses to Alme. It's rarely done with good results aside from examples like Quinar.

The topline issues may be reappearing from the TB mare in the mare line. It can take several generations to correct.

'C' line Holsteiner stallions are known for improving jump. But you might have to weight a few pros and cons of each C line. The Capitol blood might be good if you're talking about a mare coming from SF blood like QDR. Capitol adds trainability and breeds cold. The Cassini brothers do well with toplines but can take aways the trot from time to time.

The Cor de la Bryere blood often adds 'type' for conformation and quickness to the jumping.

Contender through the very potant sire Concerto II does well with improving topline and jump.

The Holsteiner stallion Cisco by Concerto II I hear is making very nice foals but is short backed and tends to throw it. That may be of consideration.

Concerto Grosso does a great job with improving topline and type. Not exactly sure what he does with the length.

Cunningham from Cassini I might be a good choice to consider. I'm not certain how he breeds in length of body though.

Frozen semen would open a lot more options. If you are still dealing with topline issues you'll need to be careful about your selections. Look at how the stallion was scored on topline and also how his foals are doing on 'type' scores.

What's the mare's trainability like? How is her movement and jump? Do you know much about any previous foals that you liked and didn't like?

Knowing how the mare breeds herself is actually the most important. She may have 'type' issues herself that she does not throw. Or she could be breeding with her TB grandmother or in some cases even SF that can lack topline.

But there are many mares out there who themselves have poor toplines and score say a '5' for type or topline and then produce offspring who get perhaps a 6-8 in these areas.

It obviously very difficult to help make stallion recommendations with such limited amount of information. Stallions can breed/ contribute differently based on the mare. Some stallions breed from their sires and some breed from their mother's influence.

But if you have a mare who is reproducing her faults it may indeed take generations to correct the problem and assessing where her faults come from both in her pedigree and in her actual bone structure can aid you in making the right decisions.

Having a mare of mixed lineage makes breeding more difficult since you don't always know where the genetics are coming from and TB structure is very different from SF and SF is different from Holst. Not necessarily the genetic makings of a goldmine of a breeding mare. Just very difficult to understand and predict.

Good luck!

[goodmorning]

Well I'm not one to go on about any mare but I'd go ahead and say this mare is more well bred than most mares in this country because of her outstanding mare line...and yes, its a TB one that has some serious credentials. Interestingly enough, only afetr generations of Holst & SF blood do we have the conformational issues. The perfect time to add some TB blood via the sire - too bad frozen isn't an option....and I highly doubt this mare needs help in the jumping department ;) The stallion she'd be bred to is lucky to get such a nice mare.

[EquusMagnificus]

Well I'm not one to go on about any mare but I'd go ahead and say this mare is more well bred than most mares in this country because of her outstanding mare line...and yes, its a TB one that has some serious credentials. Interestingly enough, only afetr generations of Holst & SF blood do we have the conformational issues. The perfect time to add some TB blood via the sire - too bad frozen isn't an option....and I highly doubt this mare needs help in the jumping department ;) The stallion she'd be bred to is lucky to get such a nice mare.

Well somebody spill the beans already! :D

Who's the mare? What's her pedigree and we want pictures! :winkgrin:

[ThreeDays]

If the mare doesn't need help in jumping department it's still good to know 'how' she jumps. Does she need more scope, more quickness, more chicken vs lion?

I don't know if the West. registry is still even active here in the US and almost all SF are only available via frozen.

The owner states that she thinks the mare is too long. Without photos of the mare or offspring it's difficult to know if the length is the problem.

What does the mare do that tells you she is too long? Often by shortening the lines you can loose power of jump.

So assuming the mare comes from proven jumping mare lines and that each sequential mare in the pedigree was bred to jumper 'type' stallions - one still needs to continue to breed for the jumping abilities.

Breeding to dressage type producers will often give you the 'type' you desire but kill the jump. Movement sires like Ariadus and Linaro make lovely offspring but they do not make GP jumpers.

Cassini II would be a good choice but since the owner doesn't want to play with frozen your left with turning to Cassini sons, Concerto II sons, and Contender.

Con Caletto makes very nice foals but the mare must be of good size herself since he breeds a little small.

Even though this mare in particular may come from a producing TB mare line - the hard mix of SF on TB then Holst will still make it difficult to breed the mare.

One of the advantages of breeding with a particular breed of mare is that you can easily understand how the blood is coming through and know what the blood likes to be crossed with and how things will likely play out over time.

I'm only saying that it can take many years of trying to figure the mare out before knowing how to breed her and mares have limited years of breeding to begin with. And in the end the resulting daughter or son will still be a difficult animal to figure out how to breed. Not that one shouldn't try - but you have to have so much more knowledge and be very astute in your assessments of the mare and her offspring to do it well.

[acottongim]

For crying out loud... Lisa you are damned if you do damned if you don't. The mare is on her website, and is Grand Gala. I know NOTHING about her bloodlines so am not going to comment on it. Lisa's website is www.irishhillsfarm.com (http://www.irishhillsfarm.com). Grand Gala is the only mare that she has bred to Pablo so I am assuming that is the one that she is talking about. There are photos up of the mare and a brief pedigree (haven't checked to see if she is on allbreeds, but am betting she is for the full pedigree). I'd post a link directly to the mare's page but Lisa had stated she wasn't lookign for critiques etc of the mare, just ideas.

btw - threedays, I do "get" it that it is normally very hard to give stallion suggestions for mares wtihout a full pedigree and photos, but in this particular case she wasn't asking for suggestions based on anything but stallions that produce short backs and are approved only with particular registeries. In those instances the disclaimer that these stallions produce this trait, but because of other issues may or may not be suitable for the mare is all I say.

[Jesse'sMom]

For crying out loud... Lisa you are damned if you do damned if you don't. I'd post a link directly to the mare's page but Lisa had stated she wasn't lookign for critiques etc of the mare, just ideas.

btw - threedays, I do "get" it that it is normally very hard to give stallion suggestions for mares wtihout a full pedigree and photos, but in this particular case she wasn't asking for suggestions based on anything but stallions that produce short backs and are approved only with particular registeries. In those instances the disclaimer that these stallions produce this trait, but because of other issues may or may not be suitable for the mare is all I say.

thank you anissa..
your right, This is exactly what i didnt want to happen to my post.. it went WAY off track & has nothing to do with my question. it got into pedigree & disciplines & my mares, frozen semen & so on. None of which has anything to do with my original question,
what stallions are known for shortening backs. thats it. thats all i asked for. I am fine at picking stallions for pedigree & discipline being all my foals are very successful.

my post got way off track, way off my topic and goes into bloodlines, disciplines, etc, which is not at all what my post was for. all i asked was for stallions that shorten backs. threedays, I never asked for stallion recommedations based on performance,size, jumping,ability,discipline, pedigrees or blodlines..I asked for who was known for giving short backs. you didnt read my original post or the follow up i did confirming what i was looking for, and you went into pedigrees, bloodlines & C lines in 3 different responses saying you needed to know blood & pedigree. no you dont. it would be like asking who is known for throwing chrome,or size. As fas as holsteiner bloodlines,I owned a holsteiner stallion, i do know the bloodlines well. but again, thats not what i asked for.

not what i wanted to happen, not what i asked for. just needed some recommedations for shortening a back so i could see what others have been successful with.. thats it..

ALL I was hoping to just get a list of stallions that people knew who would shorten a back
And i specifically wanted a holsteiner or a westphalin and shipped semen only, nothing else. (this also has nothing to do with the mare or what she is approved, its what I want)

so hopefully back to my original post, I tried to keep this on track by not posting any info other than i needed to know who threw short backs..it got it way off track. I even specifically didnt put any info on the mare to keep it on track. Your assuming thats the mare. So no pedigrees please, no ability or jumping info.. Just stallions that give short backs.

Thanks

[Zlotych]

If you dont want to discuss her amazing pedigree, perhaps the better title of the thread would then have been, Suggestions for stallions that throw a short back, not " So I just discovered I have a mare with an AMAZING pedigree.. need stallion help.." ;)

[Jesse'sMom]

FOUND a stallion, thanks!!

[ThreeDays]

If you dont want to discuss her amazing pedigree, perhaps the better title of the thread would then have been, Suggestions for stallions that throw a short back, not " So I just discovered I have a mare with an AMAZING pedigree.. need stallion help.." ;)


LOL! :lol: