Would you buy a horse with these PPE findings?

[Dressage_Diva333]

Here's the story:

Horse is 14, never taken an off step in the many years that it's current owner has had it. Currently doing Dressage (2nd lvl), but was previously campaigned as an eventer and h/j. Horses's regular Veterinarian has confirmed that he has not seen the horse on anything other than routine things. Would be used as a child's horse to teach the ropes of lower level Dressage, and some occasional jumping (not over 3ft). Child rides the horse well, and it seems to be a good fit. Current owner says horse is a very easy keeper, and due to having the winter off, it is quite overweight, however, the horse drops weight quickly (and has already) when in regular work. Never been on rich pasture, and never had grain. Shown extensivly. Never had any joint supplements, or injections.

Horse had 100% clean flexion tests, and showed no sensitivity when the hoof testers were used. Nothing noteworthy was found on the physical examination. However, radiographs revealed slight rotation of the coffin bone, as well as slight navicular changes. Would hope to get another 4yrs out of horse.


I've read the sticky about how much a PPE really means, but curious as to what your opinions would be on this case? Would you pay the full asking price (which is already rather reasonable)? If not, how much would you negotiate down?

Thank you!

[slc2]

I would not buy the horse. Because I don't ever buy a riding horse unless he is in regular work and has been for months, right at the time of sale, I don't care if it's March or January or what, the horse needs to be in regular work for me to consider him. I wouldn't buy a horse unless he was fit and in work at the time; I wouldn't give a navicular horse three months off, either, unless he was in pain and had to be laid up.

Whether the rotated coffin bone or even the navicular is significant or not depends on one thing - the opinion of a very good sport horse vet. The seller saying the horse has been off all winter, yet stating the horse is 'fine' is the first problem I have.

If the navicular was even moderate, I would not jump the horse. At all. Not even over a tiny crossrail.

All 'kid's horses' are not created equal. A kid might be very kind and gentle with light easy riding on an ideal surface, or a kid, especially one learning dressage and jumping, can be VERY hard on a horse. Riding by a kid can mean extremely frequent jumping, lots of work on the forehand with a long rein, which is very bad for navicular, and lots of unsupervised riding - 'oh I think I'll go on a 2 hr trail ride on the Old Stony Trail today! I just want to!'

With navicular, maintenance (regularity, frequency and correctness of shoeing, etc), footing, regularity of exercise and maintaining fitness are crucial. Willingness to provide medication can be a factor as well as ability to spot lameness and developing pain. But the show stopper for me is 'the winter off'. If you want to sell a horse, have him in regular work.

[Marieke]

There is a point about the not being in work, but other then that, if the horse is a match, I would do it.

I would ask for baseline x-rays to compare if you are concerned. ARe the navicular 'changes' (changes to what......... other horses? previous x-rays) cones or balls? How many? At that age with most warmbloods you are going to see changes.

About the rotation, what kind of shoes is he currently working on? And what is a slight rotation..... I had a horse long time ago that had a 'slight rotation', which we only discovered after retiring him at age 19 or so and pulled his shoes and had a hard time keeping him comfi. I competed him I-1 and he jumped in his younger years.

We're talking a lower level dressage horse, with minor jumping in his future. I bet you can get quite a few more good years out of that horse.

However, if he had no work, I would ask if they would put him in training for a bit to see how he holds up in 1 months or so.

[JRG]

It sounds like a good fit. If you are worried about the horse, he is a seasoned competitor so talk to people that may know the horse (but take it with a grain of salt). As for the x-rays, the horse is 14 and been in work. With equipment being so finite, I would say anyone would be hard pressed to find everything perfect with a horse of this age and record.

I have seen 4 year olds that had radio graphs that looked like a 20 year old and never stepped foot off the farm. Your vet is calling attention to anything that they see. It is their job, that is what you are paying them for. Still at the end of the day, if the horse is a sound good horse, its a sound good horse, who knows what tomorrow will bring.

[XTAC]

I bought a similiar horse under very similar conditions. I have never regretted buying the horse. I would not pass based on the info that you have given.
FWIW I have also had a horse vet out without reservations and ended up with a pasture potato.

[JB]

At 14, especially with the work he's done, I would be VERY surprised if there were NOT any navicular "changes". Very.

What exactly are the "changes"? Is this a WB?

What exactly is the "rotation" of P3? If it's 3* or less from parallel, that's normal and desirable. If it's more, what from? Is the hoof (one or both?) a bit upright? Need more info on this part.

If the price is right, and the fit is good, then so far I see nothing at all to make me turn away, especially given the intended use of the horse.

[EqTrainer]

I would want to get the opinion of a very good farrier or trimmer.

A lot of horses appear to have a "little bit" of rotation (1 - 2 degrees) and it is actually that their trim is not correct. Correct the trim, return the coffin bone to the correct position within the hoof capsule. Regarding navicular ON FILM (radiographic changes) with a *sound* horse who is not sore over his heels on hoof testers? My vet would call this an incidental finding. A lot of horses have navicular changes on film and never take a lame step related to it.

It sounds actually like you had a pretty good PPE on a 14 year old horse who has worked all his life. There will always be things found on a PPE, that is why we do them. Now you figure out what those things mean in the context of the horse you are looking at and the future scenario you will be providing/expecting.

Should you buy the horse? No one here can answer that question for you. You have to feel comfortable with what you know, and don't know, about the horse. I will add that suitability when looking for a child means A LOT to me. Not every horse is child friendly. I will bend over backwards to make a horse who is good with children, comfortably physically. It's the least I can do for a horse who is nice to my kids :)

[siegi b.]

Just read Anne Gribbons' article at the top of this forum.....
Good luck!

[CatOnLap]

He sounds like a lovely horse. Those radiographic findings would not necessarily put me off, in view of the findings of the clinical exam. Did the vet pull blood at the same time as the flexions? I would just hold onto it in case the horse goes dead lame in a few weeks and something was used to mask the clinical findings.

Vets tend to be conservative in their prognoses and so I would take the prediction of a good 4 years at least. The horse will be 18- that's a respectable age to retire. The horse is a good companion to the child, its a good fit. The child will either lose interest or get better on this horse in 4 years, so a nice pasture retirement should be planned for so as not to break the child's heart'. The price should reflect what 4 years of good use on an excellent schoolmaster is worth versus the cost of providing probably 5-10 years of pasture retirement board.

[merrygoround]

I would be interested in knowing exctly what the "changes" were. Some changes are minimal and mean nothing, some (like the appearance of "steer horns"on the bone) would have me running.

The coffin bone rotation is something that should be not problem to a good farrier. I would be a little concerned if it was significant enough to cause a separation at the white line, as they can be a nuisance from a management standpoint.

All in all though, I think, that given the past competition history, along with it being a good fit for the rider. I'd go with it.

I think retirement at 18 may be a little cautious. Horses like this can and do go on forever. I just the other day watched a lesson being given on a 28 year old, who was explaining to a rider exactly what was wrong with her position. :lol:

[KatherineC]

I would get a second opinion on the changes. Bob Grisel (Atlanta Equine Clinic) could look at the xrays for you. Best lameness guy on the East coast.

You get as many details as you can on his medical history. I have just been horse shopping and folks often think that if a horse has never had his hocks done or had any systemic arthrotherapy (e.g. Adequan) that this is a testament to the soundness of the horse. Many times these horses need these types of interventions. For horses in full work with strenuous jobs, this is routine maintenance.

Verify everything you can and talk to as many people as you can. Verify his show record. From the show record does it look like he had any significant amounts of time off? Ask if he is insured. If he is insured, ask if there are any exclusions on the policy (e.g. navicular disease, colic etc). Did the owner open up the vet records? Ask is you can have your vet talk to the owners vet. Talk to the farrier.

[narcisco]

I would lease/option to buy. If I could have the time to get the horse fit and to see if he will stay sound in the work I'm going to be doing with him, then I would buy him. My vet says if you do everything you're going to be doing with the horse in the first two months (don't suddenly start racing or steeplechasing), then he will likely stay sound in that job, barring injury.

So, it usually takes me 6 to 8 weeks to get one fit.

[Ruby G. Weber]

14 yr. old with unremarkable flexions. That is remarkable. If it's a good fit I'd be writing a check.

[kayandallie]

I'd be rather for getting that horse also.
I bought my daughter an advanced level eventer with definite known problems. She was only able to ride him a couple of years but those couple of years were invaluable. He is retired now in my pasture but that was my plan and I have no regrets whatsoever.
You have to weigh the value of what he can teach her against the possible maintenance that you'll have to do and the possible early retirement. Just make sure that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

[hoopoe]

14 yo horse with only slight navic changes ( at 14 let alone after showing over fences)

clean flex

"slight" rotation away fro the textbook norm does not alarm me. That the horse is fine in other respects that is the key

sounds like a good deal to me. A horse like this sounds sturdy and ready medium level horse. He could be sound for the next 10 years or he could step off the truck and be gone tomorrow

like any other horse.

[columbus]

This is a horse for a kid. Training WAY first. Temperament. Suitability for the job. Honesty...The PPE is information not the decider. We are looking at this moment as well. Finding a well broke horse that a child can have independence and make mistakes with and have fun and try new things...priceless. PatO

[stolensilver]

I think reading a few vet papers about the correlation between "navicular changes" and soundness would help the OP immensely. Basically there is very little correlation between the two. Horses with "bad" x-rays can be 100% sound. Horses with "perfect" x-rays can be permanently lame.

IMHO the vets need to put their house in order over this. They need to give potential purchasers % probabilities of the changes seen on the x-ray turning into a soundness problem based on the research that has been done. The data is out there, it just isn't being shared with the general public.

There are similar scenarios in people. If you x-ray human necks 80% of people over the age of 40 will show arthritic changes that could be used as grounds to operate. We all know that 80% of over 40 year olds don't need major surgery on their necks. So the issue there is the same as the issue with horse x-rays for navicular. The changes are open to over-interpretation and actually have no relation to lameness at all in most cases.

If a 14yo horse passes flexion tests (and those are a waste of time too if you read the research!!!) then I wouldn't have bothered with x-rays. If the horse is kind and the right one temperament and training-wise for your kid then buy them!

[YankeeLawyer]

Regarding the rotation - I would want to know exactly how much rotation and whether it appears to be due to a trim issue / the horse's natural conformation or whether it is evidence the horse foundered in the past, particular given the horse's physical condition. Having dealt with founder once, it is not something I ever want to encounter again. Otherwise, generally, I am more interested in the horse's overall health and soundness history than minor anomolies on radiographs.

[Tiki]

Hook up the trailer and go get the horse. He sounds like a wonderful old schoolmaster who will give many good show years and ribbons to this kid. A good fit for gaits, rideability and temperament for a kid are golden.