Who here does their own repro work?

[Indy-lou]

Tax time has just caused more scrutiny over expenses. Of course veterinary fees are one of the big expenses for breeders. I have been looking into doing my own ultrasound/A.I. procedures. How many of you out there do your own A.I. work? I only breed 3-4 mares per year, but a local friend breeds a few more. Looking at splitting the cost of purchasing an ultrasound machine through a company that offers additional educational support. I have years of veterinary experience as a tech, so I think I am a reasonable candidate for learning this. So, do you just do the routine ovulation scanning and insemination and leave things like cultures and lavaging to the DVM? What procedures do you handle on your own vs. having the DVM handle? Please share your experience. I am giving this serious thought. Thank you in advance.

[rideagoldenpony]

I do my own inseminations. I am certain I've done far more of them than my vet.

I'd love to do my own ultrasound work. Maybe a machine will be in the budget next year, but this year I am saving for a new horse trailer!

Inseminations and ultrasounds make up the bulk of repro work we have done for our mares.

[Katy9532]

I do not. However, at my barn (I am the only boarder), the BO does it all herself. She breeds for a living, I just made a home out at her barn to avoid all the drama at a boarding facility.

She saves a ton of money doing everything herself. I will also mention that she was a vet tech for a repro vet, and she had taken several classes on breeding.

[pintopiaffe]

I have always done shots and minor procedures. For years my Reprogod Vet has told me that a trained monkey can do the insemination, I only need him for the ultrasounds.

Well, this year, this trained monkey did. ;) And despite semen that went on walkabout in Memphis and was a day late and only 20% motility, I must've found the target, because we got a pregnancy.

It's a long story, but I'd timed them in using the biorelease altrenogest protocol, which is VERY tight. I had two girls just a waiting to go... and the clutch went on my truck--couldn't get them to the vet, couldn't get the vet to them. It was already late July, so I didn't want to waste the cycle... I sucked it up and got kits from Exodus Breeders... and it was pretty darn easy.

I will also say that I only had the courage to try because the first mare was my 21yo Big Bay Broodmare Extraordinaire(TM) who has taught me just about everything. I had absolutely NO qualms about her hurting me as I figured out the ropes.

I don't have stocks, and was doing it alone, so I improvised--I loaded them in my trailer. I put them on the right side, so I could stand on the left. I was even able to (loosely) tie their tails up doing it this way. It worked a charm.

Redneck as hell, but hay... got a pregnancy that really had slim chances based on the semen alone, so I have to think the rest of it went ok. ;)

Since I have to board for AI, and I'm not happy with the care/attention the mares got the last time I did that... (not to mention positively HEMORHAGED money on two mares normally simple to breed,) timing them and doing the AI myself is a way better option. I'd still PREFER to be able to get ultrasounds--usually simple for me to trailer in to the track about 20 mins away--but the protocol is tight. I think you MUST have early ultrasounds post-breeding if you're breeding blind, as you might not know if you have 1 or 2 follices popping.

Of course, if you're doing your own U/S on top of it... good on ya. I'm jealous. I can't palp for the life of me. Vet's tried to teach me, I just don't have that type of brain I don't think. So I definitely still need him for the piccies. ;)

[showjumpers66]

I collect semen, AI mares, and I am starting to ultrasound and flushing ETs is next on the list. Honestly, last year I bred almost all of our mares with just teasing (even with shipped semen) and had excellent conception rates. Ultrasounding is not easy and you have to do many just to start getting the feel for it. There is also risk to the mare with tearing. Several breeders on this forum use the P&E protocol instead of teasing with great success. If you don't have access to a teasing stallion that is the route I would suggest.

[rideagoldenpony]

I am starting to ultrasound and flushing ETs is next on the list.

ET is next on my list of skills to master also. I am looking forward to trying it in the coming months, thanks to Kathy's great course.

[hansiska]

Yes. I was in a situation a lot like pintopiaffe describes with a very seasoned broodmare who taught me tons. Vet refused to come out and inseminate on a Saturday! I learned quickly. I stood on a haybale behind her. What an awesome mare... and it worked, too.

I've since learned to lavage as well.

I watch mares closely, write everything down, get the vet out to ultrasound (sometimes I need two ultrasounds), I administer drugs (HcG, oxytocin, lute) if/when necessary, and we agree on the date to order and ship the semen, then I inseminate.

Knowing how to do AI is a very, very useful thing! It can save you lots of money and time. It seems inevitable that someday we'll all get into a situation where the vet just can't get to us or vice versa. As an experienced vet tech, it should be no problem for you.

I'm jealous of those of you with ultrasound machines. Me, I'd love stocks. :) My next big goal is learning how to use frozen.

[Tasker]

I don't do any AI work but shots & foaling (the straight forward ones) are my areas...add in the riding/competition schedule and, well, I prefer the vet to have her area of expertise and I have mine! :) Frozen is an area that we collaborate on together when it comes down to breeding - she preps the mare, I do the semen.

Not to derail this conversation...but I am curious...and it does relate quite a bit.
For those of you who do your own AI - how do the SO's feel about this? Do you let them know that this is your SOP? Is it part of your contract that you will be doing the repro work?

The reason I ask is that there have been plenty of this scenario - 'we had leftover semen after breeding the contracted mare, so I put the rest into Bessie' over the years...11 months later there are 2 (or more) foals and the SO has been paid for just 1.

Ethically, I know most people wouldn't do such a thing! But...it seems like a slippery slope when dealing with a MO/SO that you don't know personally. Or even if you do know a person... :uhoh:

[hansiska]

Most stallion service contracts are specifically worded for this and state that "a licensed veterinarian" will be monitoring the mare and performing the insemination.

I always call the SO before I ever sign the contract and tell them that I do my own inseminations. It's nice to tell them that I'm experienced and that I've had success. So far, I've not had anyone say they won't allow it. Personally, I would use another stallion if the SO wouldn't allow it.

There's a legal bit too: in my state, you can only inseminate mares you own.

That first time, things weren't in place for me to do the AI, so I called the stallion owner and explained the situation before she shipped the semen. Lucky for me, there was a woman in my town who'd bred her own mares for years who agreed to oversee the process. (I'd been to her farm and watched her inseminate, so that helped a lot). I also had a rapid-fire email exchange with Kathy from Equine-Repro in the days before the breeding -- what a phenomenal help and resource! The stallion owner agreed to let me try -- under the tutelage of my AI mentor(s) -- and I bred the mare.

So I recommend finding a mentor and/or taking a course (like EquineRepro's:)) and letting the stallion owner know your plans before you sign the contract.

[Edgewood]

I always call the SO before I ever sign the contract and tell them that I do my own inseminations. It's nice to tell them that I'm experienced and that I've had success. So far, I've not had anyone say they won't allow it. Personally, I would use another stallion if the SO wouldn't allow it.

That is what I do and I haven't had a single stallion owner object yet. And I have years of getting single cycle pregnancies on 1 collection.

[arizonard]

We do a large percentage of our repro work ourselves. We bought an ultrasound this year, and are looking forward to having that this season. I have had good success, but I have a great vet who is always available if we need her, and happy to consult with me as needed.

Do those who are doing their own inseminations do just fresh or frozen too? This will be our first year doing frozen ourselves.

[Daventry]

Ultrasounding is not easy and you have to do many just to start getting the feel for it. There is also risk to the mare with tearing.

Which is why I won't palpate or do ultrasound on a mare. I prefer to go the safe route and leave that for the experts. We do our own collecting and AI'ing here as well...after taking a equine reproduction course, of course! I had no idea AI was so easy until I took the course! :yes:

[Daventry]

Most stallion service contracts are specifically worded for this and state that "a licensed veterinarian" will be monitoring the mare and performing the insemination.


Our Stallion Contract states a licensed veterinarian or a reproduction specialist. Kathy St. Martin isn't a vet, but I'd trust her to inseminate over a vet any day! To be frank, we've had more problems with Mare Owner veterinarians than with their reproduction specialists. While they have all been great to work with, we've found the repro specialist have been more thorough.

[Peg]

I was certified to inseminate cattle in the 70s. I wonder how much different it is than equine? Anyone? Peg

[hansiska]

I was certified to inseminate cattle in the 70s. I wonder how much different it is than equine? Anyone? Peg

I am also certified to inseminate cows. It's apples and oranges in some ways. With cows, you put your left hand into the rectum to find and manipulate the cervix, then insert your pipette into the vagina with your right hand, coordinating both hands to get the pipette through the cervix. With horses, you're reaching into the vagina with the end of the pipette in your closed fist, with which you also locate the cervix, then using your right hand to squeeze the syringe attached to the pipette. (Sorry if TMI)

Horses are much more delicate and put up with much less!

[Peg]

In a way it seems less complicated. Do you have to go up to the horn as in cattle? Guess I'll take a class! Peg

[hansiska]

No -- only just past the cervix. I did not go any further with either cows or horses. I leave deep horn insemination for the vets.

[Sugarbrook]

Just curious if any of the vets you work with object to you doing the collecting and AI?
My vet does it all and my expenses are out the roof!!!

[showjumpers66]

We have had feedback from some that vets that only vets should be doing reproductive work, but many also seem very respectful of the knowledge gained through experience.

[Sonesta]

We generally use the P&E protocol and do everything ourselves except the ultrasound preg check. I am a whiz at reading an ultrasound, but value our mares too much to risk their health by trying to do my own ultrasounds.

Kathy at Equine-Repro says it takes hundreds of ultrasounds to become proficient at it (most vets get lots of practice during vet school ultrasounding cattle and horses at the college). To me, than means the average private breeder will always just be an amateur (doing just a few ultrasounds a year) and putting their mares at risk.

Also, when we do a custom foal, I generally let the breeding be handled by the vet, so that if there is a problem, it can't be said to be because of my actions. Cowardly? Maybe. But feels safer to me.

[YankeeLawyer]

You guys have me intrigued - now I want to learn how to do AI.

[Edgewood]

Just curious if any of the vets you work with object to you doing the collecting and AI?
My vet does it all and my expenses are out the roof!!!
Mine doesn't mind because she has a very big practice and only her in it! It helps her out that I can do a lot of my breeding work. Last year I infused and flushed mares too that needed it and she gave me all the supplies. I do usually call her out for 1 (max 2, but 99% of the time 1 time) ultrasound before breeding. I breed and she comes out at the 14-15 day check and does the pregnancy ultrasound. We usually use hcg to time the insemination pretty closely.

[arizonard]

We generally use the P&E protocol and do everything ourselves except the ultrasound preg check. I am a whiz at reading an ultrasound, but value our mares too much to risk their health by trying to do my own ultrasounds.

Kathy at Equine-Repro says it takes hundreds of ultrasounds to become proficient at it (most vets get lots of practice during vet school ultrasounding cattle and horses at the college). To me, than means the average private breeder will always just be an amateur (doing just a few ultrasounds a year) and putting their mares at risk.

Our vet does not object at all -- but it helps that we are both students at the veterinary college training to be vets ourselves. I am also already an RVT.

You would be surprised how little ultrasound experience you actually get in a vet college!

[NoDQhere]

I've been doing our collecting and AI for 20 years, but not ultrasounds. Most Vets I've worked with over the years have been more than happy to just do the "big" stuff.

[hansiska]

As far as vets go, it's sort of the same as with the stallion owners -- I'm willing to shop until I find one that cooperates. I may be biased, but I've noticed that the ones willing to cooperate with me in getting my mare bred will listen to my input in other matters too. Personally, I like open-minded vets, not the "what I say goes" types.

[Equine Reproduction]

As Sonesta noted, it is acknowledged that it takes at least 100 guided palpations before someone becomes remotely proficient at the technique AND that is with someone that is good at it themselves and able to communicate and explain what you are feeling and how to identify what is being palpated.

As Arizonard noted, most vet students don't get much opportunity to palpate mares while in vet school. Unless they do a rotation through equine reproduction, most vet students actually palpate less than 10 mares. It's tough! The way someone gets good at it is by doing LOTS. But the flip side of it is that there are risks associated with palpating and lets face it, most of us mare owners don't want to risk our mares to have someone not proficient at a task learn on them!

With regards to the comment regarding the requirement of having a veterinarian doing the insemination, I find that very few stallion owners have an issue with someone doing their own repro work. Indeed, as some have noted, mare owners that are doing their own repro work tend to be committed to that success! If someone is going to be dishonest and inseminate multiple mares, they're going to do it with or without their vet's assistance! AIing is soooo simple that I think one could train a monkey to do it (They certainly have longer arms so they'd be at an advantage doing really big mares <grin>). It's the work leading up to inseminating and identifying if more needs to be done - identifying the size of a follicle, judging when to order semen, identifying fluid and knowing if that needs to be addressed, etc.

We say it again and again and again that equine reproduction is not rocket science! I will say that unless you have more than 10 mares to breed in a season, doing your own ultrasound work probably isn't practical and it would be difficult to become proficient sufficiently at it to be competent. When doing mare work, I will usually palpate AND ultrasound as each technique provides information that helps in identifying impending ovulation.

Hope that helps!

Kathy St.Martin
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[Indy-lou]

Very helpful responses, all of them. I hope more will contribute. Really helping me to formulate what is practical in my situation and where I should aim my efforts. Just from my years in veterinary and human medicine disciplines, I have observed a lot of medical professionals in practice and may I say this: I think some people will have a natural affinity for palpation and for using ultrasound, and others best to leave it to others. I am well aware of the hazards of rectal tearing, and that lay persons should think twice about attempting it, but for an analagous situation: some licensed doctors are better off never picking up a scalpel and have no affinity for surgery (akin to being a soft tissue mechanic), but can still be good diagnosticians. And visa versa. After the education and experience, some have the knack, and others do not. Just sayin': some lay people can definitely learn to do ultrasound and over time be more proficient than maybe some vets (not all of course!) I think I do not have enough mares to make an investment in an ultrasound machine practical in my case, but I definitely think learning how to inseminate will be worth my while. And the general consensus seems to be that "even a monkey" can learn to do AI, so I think I have what it takes in that regard!

[Ghazzu]

Our vet does not object at all -- but it helps that we are both students at the veterinary college training to be vets ourselves. I am also already an RVT.

You would be surprised how little ultrasound experience you actually get in a vet college!

I was lucky--did a theriogenology elective spring of my senior year.
Got to ultrasound multiple mares every morning for two weeks solid...

[hansiska]

Another nice benefit of doing your own AI is that you get accustomed to finding the cervix and get a feel for what the cervix is telling you about a mare's readiness to breed. I always try to get two ultrasounds in prior to breeding, but it's good to know that in a real pinch I can make a determination based on how the cervix feels -- if I can't get the vet out after that first ultrasound. It's definitely not the recommended protocol by any means, but my vet practice is a weekdays-only business (and they don't consider breeding worthy of an emergency call on the weekend :rolleyes:), so if I need a Friday afternoon ultrasound and they've got a big emergency... well, the vet may not get to me.

I also wanted to add that the dairy industry set the precedent for us horse breeders. Dairy farmers do all of their own AI, unless they pay non-vet AI specialists to come out and do it for them. (Yes, there are people whose job it is to travel from one dairy farm to the next doing AI). Dairy farmers just won't pay vets for something they can do themselves! :winkgrin:

[goodmorning]

Hmmm.....this is something I am serisouly considering, a bovine AI is a piece of cake ;) I just wish I could find someone to show me the Equine AI - now that I am no longer at my big University that taught me the bovine version I am not sure how to go about finding someone, and Equine Repro does not come to New England! :(

[Indy-lou]

goodmorning: check with outfits that sell frozen bull semen. They can tell you where the AI schools are for cattle in your area. Cattle frozen semen and AI services are very big business in the cattle world. We raise Red and Black Angus cows also. AI'ing cows is very messy! and I am glad the techs do it!

[rideagoldenpony]

Just curious if any of the vets you work with object to you doing the collecting and AI?
My vet does it all and my expenses are out the roof!!!

When we started offering shipped semen (before Mardi was even born, lol), we worked with a different vet than we do now. He would have us meet him at a cutting horse facility that had a phantom and lab, and we'd drive 45 minutes, wait for him for an hour to show up (he was ALWAYS late, and he'd never call them ahead to say we were coming, and they were not always nice about it!), and then watch while he heat shocked all the semen with a huge horse AV on a pony. It did not take me very long to figure out that he was not doing things right, and this was years before I took my first equine reproduction course.

Not to mention that I would say at least 75% of our semen requests are same day, and this particular vet was so busy (small and large animal practice) that if you had a same day request, the mare owner was out of luck.

When we imported our first stallion, and actually had one that was in demand (vs. a breeding here and there previously), we realized that the only way we were going to be able to do it was to set up and collect at home.

We started by doing ground collection the first season. The stallion had a hip injury, and it seemed like that would be easier on him. I'm not sure it really was, and we ended up building a phantom instead, but we had terrific success rates on all the mares bred to him.

When Mardi was old enough to enter the breeding program, we sent him off to Kathy for about 6 weeks as a three year old. She did such an absolutely TERRIFIC job of teaching him his job for collection. He's absolutely EASY to collect, never pulls, never rude, just an absolute gentleman.

My current vet (who I love), does not do a lot of repro work, and in fact I think we are her biggest client for that. I don't think she has any clients that she does collections for/with, and she's certainly never indicated that she thought she should be here for ours. In fact, I think it would be very hard on her schedule to have to be here as often as we collect during the height of breeding season.

We get fabulous comments every year on the quality of what we are shipping out, so I feel confident that we are doing things right -- even without the vet standing over our shoulders. :)

I'd imagine that you could set up to do it yourself pretty easily, Sandy. I know it saves my customers a fortune that we are able to do it ourselves.

[pintopiaffe]

my vet is the one who has been telling me to do it--for years.

He still gets plenty o'biz from me for other stuff. He actually has made me do a couple of procedures--including a second drain on a seroma--myself. He also will give me Rx when I need it, often without seeing the horse (depends, of course) But we have that kind of relationship. I scrubbed at the track one whole summer just to learn leg stuff.

I actually don't think I'd have tried it *without* that kind of back up.

[tri]

I do as much as I can myself including lavage, insemination, shots, etc. I can't believe what some people pay their vets or the amount of ultrasounds they do.