judges discussion

[SGray]

from DR111.3.f.

"If the shoulder-in is performed on the long side or on the center line, the horse should be straightened after the shoulder-in, before going into the corner."

"If the movement that follows the shoulder-in is a circle at any point, or a turn left or right at any point other than the four corners, the horse should not be straightened."
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sooooooo - first sentance says if you are in shoulder-in on centerline, you straighten before turning at A or C.

second sentance says that you don't straighten unless you are in a corner, you keep horse in bend

if you are on centerline then you will not be in one of "the four corners"

consensus I've heard is that the intent of rule-makers is to have you straighten before turning at A(C) if in shoulder-in on c-line

do you concur?

(and have you found other such seemingly contradictory sentences in the rules?)

[canyonoak]

I'd say -- if you have a horse that can keep the rhythm, straighten and re-position for the turn at A, all within the less than 6 meters you have (from D -- go for it!

Honestly, if you have enough engagement and collection, not too much of a problem.

But sh-in to shoulder-fore is probably the safest option.

It's kind of like the GP zig-zag : it's that last change at G just before C that often looks a bit rickety...

LOL

[dotneko]

Wait -

wasn't that a question on our 'r' exam?
No fair 'asking the audience'.

I personally could not find the rule # reference for the
question on entering the ring early. I asked several
others and no one could find it either - only in the dressage
protocol handbook.
There goes my 100%

Dot

[SGray]

not to worry - I am not taking the test

just think that the wording in the rule book could use some 'tweaking' to make it clearer

[JRG]

When I look at the tests, granted I am only up to third I have noticed that the movements are always finished before the corner. Meaning the last letter before the corner. In my own thought process, if the movement finishes before the corner I straighten for the corner.

If the movement like the one questioned in Second Three, SI to 10 meter circle, the movement blends to the other.

Or another example, in Third Two SI to half pass which doesn't lend itself to straighten as the SI is the precurser to the half pass but you straighten at G before you turn at C.

That all being said what I have found is that focusing one the "inbetween" is where the meat of the matter is. For example the strides before the corner, the corner are more important then the movement because the movement is the outcome. Once you ride the before and after the movement is like the icing on the cake...it is just there.

Does this rambling make any sense?

[merrygoround]

Yes JRG , it does! :)

[slc2]

I don't see how you could have the rule be any other way. The rider has to show he has control of the horse and can both start AND end a shoulder in. It makes sense to maintain the shoulder in into a circle and to then demonstrate the ability of the rider to end the movement and reposition the horse on the centerline.

[Arathita]

It depends on the test. Are you talking about fourth level?

If the horse is doing shoulder-in on the centerline, the movement ends before C and the horse should be straight to C. Usually, the turn at C is in the opposite direction so it is important to straighten the horse before bending in the opposite direction.

This is how I ride the SI down centerline and have received good marks.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Could you ask more questions and keep up the discussion? I am learning a lot!!!

[pintopiaffe]

Usually, the turn at C is in the opposite direction so it is important to straighten the horse before bending in the opposite direction.

In the case of the turn being the other way... it seems fairly obvious.

In the case of corners--which tests don't specify where to end the SI?

I guess I don't see the rule as terribly contradictory... less than clear? Yes, but when I read it the third or fourth time I got what it was saying about a turn at a letter vs. a corner or a turn off a long side/ctr line. (i.e. I'm SI from K-E and turning at E, the first part of the turn becomes the 'straightening.' )

[SGray]

deconstructing the sentence

if you take out the clause you get:

If the movement that follows the shoulder-in is a turn left or right at any point other than the four corners, the horse should not be straightened.


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I would just like to see better writing/editing in the Rule book

When judges 'know' what is meant but then when confronted with their test they go through hours of self-doubt/angst after reading through the rules again..... something is not right

[SGray]

in my former life as a TD I had a huge argument with a judge over a rule that stated that a competitor 'should' do something, the competitor acted differently and the judge eliminated them

I said "no" not for a 'should', only for a 'will' or 'must'

what would your opinion be?

[Arathita]

In the case of the turn being the other way... it seems fairly obvious.

In the case of corners--which tests don't specify where to end the SI?

I guess I don't see the rule as terribly contradictory... less than clear? Yes, but when I read it the third or fourth time I got what it was saying about a turn at a letter vs. a corner or a turn off a long side/ctr line. (i.e. I'm SI from K-E and turning at E, the first part of the turn becomes the 'straightening.' )

I agree. But on a hair-splitting note, you might be surprised on how people ride this. I have seen some people go from shoulder in on the centerline to shoulder-fore in the opposite direction (without straightening) before making the opposite turn at C in order to set up around those corners for the turn into the extended trot across the diagonal. Or they just change bend and turn. I don't know how they score but not everyone straightens before the turn. I make a point to straighten - whether it is viewed as the ideal way to ride the line or not by some judges. There are several things that some judges advocate that don't actually follow the letter of the way the test is written.

[ideayoda]

There are no tests where the SI/t/r do not specifically end, it always says letter to letter. IF the circle is attached to it (ie SI to circle, or circle to travers), the bend either starts the circle or ends it. Sort of self evident within traditional training exercises.