rolling thigh in and keeping toes from sticking out

[fromatox]

A few months ago I posted "help for a crooked rider" and got some awesome feedback. I still struggle sometimes to the right but it has improved immensely and I am able to fix myself when I start to feel like I'm not sitting straight.

Now, I'm having a different type of problem. I had the terrible habit of sticking my toes out and goosing with my heel to ask for more forward. I've almost resolved that - sometimes I slip one in if I'm really struggling - but even though I've mostly stopped that I'm still stuck with the problem of my toes sticking out on an angle.

I've heard it's ideal for the thigh to be rotated "inwards" = kind of like you sit on the flesh on the side? And that way the toes will correct themselves. I just can't keep this position. I will manually "roll" my things in, but they just won't stay. Is this an anatomical problem? What am I doing wrong? I try to just relax and let my thighs hang long and this seems to push my toes even farther out to the side.

[trooper345]

Ack! I feel like I have some issue with this position as well. I have transitioned over to dressage after years of riding jumpers and am having some trouble reeducating my muscles. If anyone has suggestions (I think my poor trainer is at wits end..lol) I would love to hear.

Any thoughts on exercises to help keep the upper body back at the trot as well would be MUCH appreciated. The horse I'm riding stops on a dime if I incline even a few degrees forward and I am getting so frustrated with myself. I can feel the correction when I sit up and back and and push him forward but I can't seem to maintain that body position. Would stirrups being too short be contributing to this? I am physically strong and ride 3-4 a day but with the "real" dressage horse I am having issues.

[Ambrey]

It's a flexibility issue, I think (this is my theory, anyway, and what I'm working with). There are many muscles that surround the hip, I *think* the ones that are limiting this for me seem to be the piriformis/gluteus minimus tract.

I've been doing these stretches:

http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/cybertherapist/stretching/outer_hip_stretch.php
http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/cybertherapist/stretching/standing_outer_hip_stretch.php

and also iliotibial stretches like these

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=6099

but it's still a work in progress :)

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

THIS IS MY PROBLEM TOO!! Well actually I can do it for extended periods, but my knee pain is so bad afterwards that it isn't worth it to me. Drives instructors crazy.

I am totally knock-kneed though...I told my husband, I'm definitly not breeding stock quality--bad leg conformation.

I focus on getting my thigh to lie correctly and opening my hip angle and keeping my legs back and give up on the toes.

[merrygoround]

Hard to tell without seeing you in and moving on a saddle.

But, perhaps you are concentrating, or in the habit of, pushing your heel down. This could stiffen your ankle and knee, rotating your leg. The weight goes down through your heel- your ankle,and knee must allow it to pass through. Any stiffness will create problems.

[Icecapade]

hmmm intersting, I'm well rounded in those areas and tend to not be able to keep that fixed strongly, but my bigger issue is actually opening the hip off the horse, sliding the bone to the outside socket.

I'm not convinced stretching the IT band will solve that issue. I could be wrong but not sure.

The work I do for dance creates tight IT bands (to the point finger applied pressure anything past just skin resting is painful) and I do a lot of these stretches (by the way... rolling the IT band, is one of the single most painful things I think I've ever done to my body- be forwarned!!!! and support with the non rolling leg to start!!) and I don't know how much it has helped.

But I'll concentrate more on that while I'm riding and see where it gets me and be more diligent about rolling my IT. boo hiss for tight legs!!!

[JB]

It can absolutely be a flexibility issue.

It can be that you are using your lower leg in a manner that twists your leg back out.

It can be that the twist of the saddle is too wide for you.

It can be that your horse is too wide for you, sadly.

[Ambrey]

It can be that your horse is too wide for you, sadly.

My horse is too wide for anyone, but I plan to keep riding him anyway! :lol:

[Gloria]

Now, I'm having a different type of problem. I had the terrible habit of sticking my toes out and goosing with my heel to ask for more forward. I've almost resolved that - sometimes I slip one in if I'm really struggling - but even though I've mostly stopped that I'm still stuck with the problem of my toes sticking out on an angle.

I've heard it's ideal for the thigh to be rotated "inwards" = kind of like you sit on the flesh on the side? And that way the toes will correct themselves. I just can't keep this position. I will manually "roll" my things in, but they just won't stay. Is this an anatomical problem? What am I doing wrong? I try to just relax and let my thighs hang long and this seems to push my toes even farther out to the side.

Hahah. You sound like me:D:D:D. My old habit was to roll the knee out, along with my toes, and used the back of my calf to give any aids (or to stay on).

The secret is to roll your "whole" leg inward from your hip joint. It also helps to pull the flesh of the back of the thigh and your buttock out (to get it out of the way sort of speak). Once you get it done, your calf will follow, so will your toes.

If you are not accustomed to it, you will feel a pull on the groin. And you will feel very very awkward and strange to begin with. I almost got a sensation of pressing the top of my thigh on the saddle (in reality it does not but that was the feeling I was getting). Oh and old habit die hard and it is very normal for your "new" position not to stay. This is a good time to get a few good lunge lessons so you have someone to bug you whenever you are out of position.

Good luck!

[MelantheLLC]

The secret is to roll your "whole" leg inward from your hip joint. It also helps to pull the flesh of the back of the thigh and your buttock out (to get it out of the way sort of speak). Once you get it done, your calf will follow, so will your toes.

This is the key. Reach behind your thigh, grab the inner thigh muscle (and fat in my case :( ) and pull it to the back.

ETA oh yeah and then don't arch the small of your back. Use your pelvis to keep your hip joint open so your thighs CAN drop down and back.

The front inner part of your thigh will rest against the saddle--it feels as if you are kneeling with your calves sticking out to either side.

That's where it takes awhile for your body to adjust--to keep your calf draped. Think of kneeling in a knock-kneed position each time you lose it.

[Lusoluv]

My last horse was SUPER-wide, but you can still do this! I believe that "toes out" is more of a symptom of an unstable core more than an exclusive leg issue. If your stomach is always pressing forwards towards the pommel, it will be easier for you to relax your hip flexors to be long and open there, and the rest of the leg will hang correctly. As soon as you tense/draw in your tummy, the hip flexors tighten upwards, thigh rolls outwards and calves/heel are on the horse. Think of riding a bit pigeon-toed, knees and toes point forwards. Imagine wearing huge spurs that you want to keep away from your horse's sides. Always think "stomach forwards towards the hands". Maybe some of these images will help slowly change your habits, but it takes time ;)

[webbcutey]

I do this too! I'm getting better about it, SLOWLY, though.

I've gotten the "kneel on the saddle" spiel. However, what seems to work better for me is thinking about rolling my knee in, rather than my thigh. And cuing with my toes or the front of my shin helps keep me from turning out my toes and cuing with my heels.

[EqTrainer]

Everyone is dead on w/the thigh roll. But after you roll it, you then need to open your hip flexors.

Bewarned, this hurts. If it doesn't hurt, you probably aren't opening them correctly or enough :lol: please, don't break anything on my advice tho'..

so you need to picture that you have a wall in front of you and it starts right at your pubic bone. Push the front of your hip joint towards the wall.

When you've got it right, you may feel stiff, or like suddenly you are stuck there. This is correct :) and you will get used to it. Your horse will appreciate it :) Maintain this feeling by remembering that in walk and trot, your seatbones NEVER go backwards. Only forward, like you are sitting on your butt on the floor with your legs in front of you and marching your seat forward. Really.. think about it.. the horse is going forward, not backwards (we hope) and so must you...

in the canter the outside seatbone does come back so and the hip flexor does close a bit at one point so best to practice this at the walk/trot first...

last - get your leg OFF. OFF. From the hip, to start, until you learn to lay your thigh down flat and keep your lower leg lightly off/barely there. To ask the horse to go, slap him w/your calf. NOT your heel. Your heel has your SPUR on it someday, and you are going to use that go sideways, not forward (unless you are riding a hunter and then this is all irrelevant) The only action of your leg is OUT and IN, not UP, not ON for more than a second. As soon as you use your leg in any other way, it affects your seat by lifting it up and off the horse. With some horses you have to ease into this as they are so used to the leg holding them that they get a little goosy when you take it off.

Watch a video of riders at the Olympics.. and note the air between their lower leg and the horse most of the time. What they ODG's said and what they really did is really questionable here... the wet towel thing.. actually when you can do this really well it does feel somewhat like that, so I see why they said it.. but that's later, much later, when you control your leg properly.

You will never keep your leg in place as long as you subscribe to the idea that it is on and then MORE on to ask the horse to go. It is actually so illogical as to be amusing if it weren't such a prevelant thing to see. Just wait a few minutes, someone will come along and say that they have been taught to wrap their leg around the horse....

maybe Flash will show up and she can talk about what it was like to get on a horse and, for the first time, take her leg OFF and feel him get round and go forward :)

[buck22]

It also helps to pull the flesh of the back of the thigh and your buttock out (to get it out of the way sort of speak). Once you get it done, your calf will follow, so will your toes.
this is precisely what I was going to suggest, I read about it in Sylvia Loch's Classical Seat

eq, your post is fascinating, thank you!

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by EqTrainer:

... the wet towel thing..

hmmm, what is this?

[FlashGordon]

Everyone is dead on w/the thigh roll. But after you roll it, you then need to open your hip flexors.

Bewarned, this hurts. If it doesn't hurt, you probably aren't opening them correctly or enough :lol: please, don't break anything on my advice tho'..

When you've got it right, you may feel stiff, or like suddenly you are stuck there. This is correct :) and you will get used to it. Your horse will appreciate it :) Maintain this feeling by remembering that in walk and trot, your seatbones NEVER go backwards. Only forward, like you are sitting on your butt on the floor with your legs in front of you and marching your seat forward. Really.. think about it.. the horse is going forward, not backwards (we hope) and so must you...

in the canter the outside seatbone does come back so and the hip flexor does close a bit at one point so best to practice this at the walk/trot first...

last - get your leg OFF. OFF. From the hip, to start, until you learn to lay your thigh down flat and keep your lower leg lightly off/barely there. To ask the horse to go, slap him w/your calf. NOT your heel. Your heel has your SPUR on it someday, and you are going to use that go sideways, not forward (unless you are riding a hunter and then this is all irrelevant) The only action of your leg is OUT and IN, not UP, not ON for more than a second. As soon as you use your leg in any other way, it affects your seat by lifting it up and off the horse. With some horses you have to ease into this as they are so used to the leg holding them that they get a little goosy when you take it off.

You will never keep your leg in place as long as you subscribe to the idea that it is on and then MORE on to ask the horse to go. It is actually so illogical as to be amusing if it weren't such a prevelant thing to see. Just wait a few minutes, someone will come along and say that they have been taught to wrap their leg around the horse....

maybe Flash will show up and she can talk about what it was like to get on a horse and, for the first time, take her leg OFF and feel him get round and go forward :)

Ha ha I just happened to pop online and read this post first.

Having spent 15+ years in Hunter Land, and then riding a lot of goofy horses, I'd learned to clamp my leg and drive my seat down in an effort to stay ON. I could stick through most antics and get a horse W/T/C but it was hard work, and I was rather ineffective in many ways.

Last winter I worked with a trainer who tweaked my position in ways described above, but it was exceptionally hard to see results on lesson horses I was riding sporadically. I remember well the pulling in my hip flexors when I first started attempting this!

Along came Dan and after a little trial and error, it was like a lightbulb went on. Leg off, lift your seat ever so slightly, and Dan came forward, and UP. At 1400lbs and nearly 17hh he was easily the lightest horse I've ever sat on. The thrust in his trot was immense and his canter was the most uphill and balanced I have ever ridden.

I remember riding him at EqT's and I just tried to stay with him. When he came to me, I learned real quick not to override him, because frankly, it pissed him off! If I happened to sit back on my leg, nag, or resume my hunter perch I often found he'd shut down and I'd lose that nice forward and up feeling.

I feel incredibly blessed to have been able to ride Dan, even for a little while, as I'm not sure I will ever come across a more naturally balanced or through horse. Now, whenever I get on another horse, I try to emulate the feeling I had with him. The results are never as dramatic but I can say it makes an immense difference.

There's no doubt that forward issues are, 9 times out of 10, created by the rider. The problem IMO is that most people attribute it to hands, and not leg/seat. Yes hands are a major factor but I think the seat/leg is in fact probably more problematic... because I don't think there are enough trainers out there that can effectively spot and explain what is going on and what needs to change.

Not sure this all made sense, I'm not as good at explaining the intuitive things that need to happen but I think EqT's post above was spot on.

(Now off to have a good cry and wish I could have ridden that horse for another decade. :sadsmile: )

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by FlashGordon:

The issue IMO is that most people attribute it to hands, and not leg/seat. Yes hands are a major issue but I think the seat/leg is in fact probably more problematic...

A rider cannot use their hands properly without first having attained a correct, INDEPENDENT seat. And that starts with the butt and thighs and spine of the rider. And the rest of their body, too :p

[FlashGordon]

A rider cannot use their hands properly without first having attained a correct, INDEPENDENT seat. And that starts with the butt and thighs and spine of the rider. And the rest of their body, too :p

This is true.... but I can say I have very good hands, and an "independent seat" by H/J standards, and yet was still blocking with my leg/seat....

Remember I am coming from H/J land so perhaps my thoughts are lost in translation.

[Petstorejunkie]

1. do you have reliable dressage eyes on the ground helping you? (if not, there's problem #1.. you cant learn dressage from the internet)
2. Can you get video of yourself to post, or at the very least pictures?
3. If the answers to 1 and 2 are no, where are you located, so we can help you get either 1 or 2 accomplished.

In the meantime, (i'm assuming you are female) grab the back of your thigh and pull all that thigh flesh out behind you so that your thigh can lay flat against the horse. Another exercise (as i suspect your pelvis is tilted too far forward) Take your legs one at a time completely off the horse, from crotch to heel. repeat 5-10 times each leg. then do both at the same time so you look like you are flapping your legs like a bird. If it's difficult, adjust your seat and try and try and try until it's easy.
Also, for more forward impulsion, think of using your shins instead of your calf.

[Equibrit]

First - start with the right saddle!
Second - do some lessons on the lunge line.

[GallantGesture]

Start with the above suggestions to get your leg laying right.... then proceed with this torture exercise I was subjected to in a clinic last summer for the same problem (which is now fixed!!). Posting trot, 20m circle. Horse stays round, on the bit, with bend appropriate for the circle. Rider maintains posting with correct posture. Drop stirrups. Keep posting! Pick stirrups back up. Drop. Pick up. Drop. Keep your horse round!! Pick up. Where's the bend? Drop. Pick up. Your horse isn't on the bit! Drop. There's no corners in circles! Pick back up. Drop....

You get the idea. Continue until thigh burn is more than you can take. It works because you have to turn your toe in to get your stirrup, which makes you use (over-use probably) your thigh/knee since you are posting. Impossible exercise to do with toes turned out. Also incredibly painful exercise if you are used to riding with toes turned out. Enjoy!

[welshrider]

I too have the same problem with legs turned out. I find that when I try to get my legs in the correct position it affects by pelvis -- more arching of lower back -- which is another problem I suffer from! Any words of wisdom to help prevent this from happening?

[Equibrit]

Start with a CORRECTLY fitted saddle - and I mean fitted to YOU.

[Spectrum]

I agree heartily on step 1 (make sure your saddle is right for you). Here is how you do it: take your legs off the horse from the hip, so you're only sitting on your crotch and your entire leg is off. Then relax your leg, put it down and let it hang on the horse's side. If your toes point outwards in this totally relaxed position, likely the twist of your saddle is not right for you and you'll fight a losing battle to correctly position your leg.

If however, your toes mostly point forward, then go to step 2:

The main part of your problem is that you are gripping with your leg, so you need to start by taking the leg *off* and keeping it off. The easiest way to to this is to relax your entire leg, and then point your heel away from the horse and down. You can start this in a posting trot, and each time you rise, think of removing your entire leg from the horse's side while pointing the heel away and down with a relaxed ankle and knee. It's more like a stretching exercise than a positioning exercise, and if you're doing it right you will most likely give yourself NASTY charlie horses in your hip flexors as you do it the first several times. Additionally, you will almost certainly feel EXTREMELY destabilized by this exercise, because it will force you to ride and balance from your core and seat rather than using your leg to balance you on the horse. But once you get past the unstable feeling, you will be able to use your leg much more correctly and independently on your horse.

If you do it with your post, you will have a rhythm to continuously correct yourself while also doing it in the phase in which many riders pinch with their knees, thus getting double corrective duty out of the exercise. Then when you sit the post, think "complete relaxation" in your leg. If you do it in rhythm and relaxation, it will go a long way towards teaching your legs correct muscle memory.

Do NOT force your leg to twist around in a constant state, as this just creates more tension and turns you into a pretzel on top of your horse. What you're trying to do is stop pinching with your thigh and leg and free your horse to move under your leg.

Spectrum.

[Ambrey]

This looks like good stuff, Spectrum, I can't wait to try it :) I don't think it's always a twist issue, as for those of us with xxxxw horses even a medium twist saddle has to give way to legs spread further than most find comfortable.

That said, I used to ride in a wider twist saddle and I think I was very unstable in it, although I didn't know it at the time. I think with a very wide horse, adding a wide twist saddle on top makes a secure seat a more difficult job.

[Dressage Art]

I had the terrible habit of sticking my toes out and goosing with my heel to ask for more forward.Kottas calls it "frog legs". Try to touch the sides of your horse with your toes instead of your heels.

[medical mike]

Toe out can have a few causes, the most common being lateral hamstring and hip muscles turning out the hip joint and tibia.

Owing to gender differences, I'll say it is more a strength than flexability issue.

In that case, slideboard squeeze and or footwave exercise is warrented (depending of course on tested weakness).

Now for the "goosing" if that means heel going down and forward, that could be either quad extending the knee or hamstrings pulling the knee back with the calf failing to handle the load.

Got any pics or short clips to view?

REgards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us

[Petstorejunkie]

I too have the same problem with legs turned out. I find that when I try to get my legs in the correct position it affects by pelvis -- more arching of lower back -- which is another problem I suffer from! Any words of wisdom to help prevent this from happening?
You have to use your lower core. Think of a string going from your pubic bone to your belly button and tighten the string. This will lengthen your lower back without having you collaps your chest. it takes some getting used to.

[Boomer]

Toe out can have a few causes, the most common being lateral hamstring and hip muscles turning out the hip joint and tibia.

Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us

Any suggestions for conformationally challanged? My right toe/leg is fine, but my left leg/toe just will not turn in. I inherited this from my dad - but he toes out on both legs.

When I was doing H/J back in the day, trainers used to use baling twine to "train" my leg by tying the string to the stirrup and girth. I'll never forget the terrible pain in caused.

Doctors say if I was a kid now they would brace the leg to correct it. Back when I was born, it just wasn't an issue.

I have to be constantly aware of it when I ride - especially if I have spurs on as it take very little movement with that leg to accidently use the spur.

[pintopiaffe]

I think with a very wide horse, adding a wide twist saddle on top makes a secure seat a more difficult job.

Yes... and No.

Sometimes, on the stupid-wide, you have to go WIDER in the twist, to get the hips open from the top down. This isn't always possible--some rider anatomies just can't take it, but it can be miraculous. It seems counter-intuitive. But if you have access to a (good) western saddle, can sit the western saddle on the stupid-wide horse, and can sit in a lovely posture, it is your answer. (problem being finding a GOOD western saddle. Cheap/cardboard/poor saddles aren't going to tell you anything.)

I remember reading an article centuries ago by "Kip" in PH. She spoke to this issue. Wasn't a big deal to me back then, but it was tucked in the back of the filing cabinet in my saddle-fitting-files. Along came his Princeness and the Pea. I rode him in a Crates (western--performance horse tree) for a LONG time between dressage saddles. And my position was just so easily *there.* A very-wide twist on him and my leg hung correctly from the hip. It also was too much for the degenerative hip. :cry:

On a horse that is wider on top than they are below your knee, the right high thigh blocks can be hugely helpful. Something to roll your thighs INTO. Again, hard to explain, but if you have velcro blocks, try putting them up as high as they'll go. The top inch or three might be off the velcro, that's ok. Your saddle flaps will look like elephant ears. That's ok too. ;) Try reversing them (steep side toward you) and sometimes try putting them upside down. Move them around, try something new, and you may find nirvana.

Finally, the cheaty stirrup pads or irons can help. You want the kind raised on the outside, vs. the heels down ones. AVOID the heels down ones--they make things worse as has been explained very well above. But the raised-outside ones (or the pads you can put in your current irons) are a mechanical way to help stretch the right things and roll your thigh in. And you get to a point where you don't need them any more. A little like training wheels--as you get better, you'll want them less and less, and finally one day go, "ow, these things suck, why were they on there?"

[Ambrey]

I was going to ask about stirrups. I just traded my jointed ones (for plastic lightweight ones just for kicks) and haven't yet decided whether it's making any difference. It certainly doesn't seem to be making things worse!

I tried reversing my thigh blocks once. It hurt! I might see what happens if I move them up.

[EqTrainer]

Great suggestions, PP.

For those who have odd lower leg conformation, try to remember that the entire *point* of getting your thigh rolled/hip flexors open and correct is to perfect your seat. The effect it has on your lower leg is actually incidental. You can rarely fix any lower leg issue w/out fixing the seat issue, but the seat is what matters. You could ride w/no lower leg at all, if you were handy w/a whip.

So if your seat and thigh are correct, and your lower leg is wonky, I would try to deal with it by using your entire lower leg as one solid item (to slap with). That way whichever way your toe points is less important. Eventually that, too, will probably shake itself out.

[EqTrainer]

I really hate the jointed stirrups. To make them actually "work", you have to push into them. If you are riding a hunter or going across terrain, ok then. But it's not right in dressage. So why have them at all instead of learning to NOT push into your stirrup.. using your stirrup as a reference point for your ankle being a pivot for your knee, and your knee being a pivot for your pelvis, is a much better use for it :)

AND.. I like to know that if the horse I am on gets some play, that I CAN push into the stirrup and it is not going to MOVE! I hate that! It really freaks me out, to be on some bucking cavorting horse and the stirrup keeps moving.. :eek:

[Ambrey]

EqT, I came to the same conclusion- that they were encouraging me to put too much weight in them. That's why I decided to try the other extreme, which are super light composite stirrups that are there but don't really feel like anything.

I got the jointed stirrups because I thought they'd be easier on my knees, but I haven't had any knee pain since quitting them.

These are the ones I'm using:

http://www.vtosaddlery.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=TTS

but I was kind of thinking about trying these as well:

http://www.vtosaddlery.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CRWTSI.

[3Hanns]

I have these, and LOVE them...

http://dressageextensions.com/ProductDetail.asp?KEY=1174

[pintopiaffe]

So I actually was thinking about this as I rode. (I'd just posted while having a cuppa to warm up/break in between horses)

Stirrup LENGTH can be a culprit too. Often we try to strive for long, longer, longest stirrups in dressage... when neither our conformation nor the horse's call for it.

Check out just how much knee bend some of the ODG photos have.

The joints must have SOME angle in order to work as shock absorbers. And often, as the stirrup gets TOO long, we find ourselves reaching with the heel to give the aid because we aren't stable enough. Plus, after a certain point, the hip is TOO open to rotate properly.

Different horses call for different lengths. Both small AND big/wide call for a touch shorter. Also a very heavy thigh can need a hole shorter. (ask me how I KNOW this?) So stirrup length is worth playing with as well.

[Stacie]

.
Stirrup LENGTH can be a culprit too. Often we try to strive for long, longer, longest stirrups in dressage... when neither our conformation nor the horse's call for it.

Check out just how much knee bend some of the ODG photos have.


I read that on a wider horse it is easier for the rider to get their leg on comfortably if they have more angle in the knee.

[Arathita]

Have you ever skiied?

Think of the "snowplow" position when in the saddle. This will help you retrain your legs to bring the thigh in and point the toe forward. You can even put your hand under your thigh from the back of your leg and kind of pull the fat of the the thigh fat back to really feel the flatness of your leg against the saddle (Sue Blinks suggested this). Be sure you don't roll your wrists in at the same time.

[trooper345]

Thanks to eveyone, for me personally all of the replies have really helped. Making the transition from H/J land to Dressage is an interesting one and I do have an incredibly talented (and thankfully patient) instructor. Sometimes it just helps to hear other variation of an explanation and tips from other riders.

I found this past weekend that by letting my stirrups down and dropping my weight down through the leg and not into the heel, as a hunter, that I was doing much better. I have been working with stirrups as much as possible as well but in making my discpline transition I have also made a transition from a "daisey cutter" TB to a much larger WB that MOVES...lol So still getting a feel for the difference in movement.

Thanks again to everyone, the replies have really helped!:)

[Carnelian]

Start with the above suggestions to get your leg laying right.... then proceed with this torture exercise I was subjected to in a clinic last summer for the same problem (which is now fixed!!). Posting trot, 20m circle. Horse stays round, on the bit, with bend appropriate for the circle. Rider maintains posting with correct posture. Drop stirrups. Keep posting! Pick stirrups back up. Drop. Pick up. Drop. Keep your horse round!! Pick up. Where's the bend? Drop. Pick up. Your horse isn't on the bit! Drop. There's no corners in circles! Pick back up. Drop....

You get the idea. Continue until thigh burn is more than you can take. It works because you have to turn your toe in to get your stirrup, which makes you use (over-use probably) your thigh/knee since you are posting. Impossible exercise to do with toes turned out. Also incredibly painful exercise if you are used to riding with toes turned out. Enjoy!

I'm trying this one! Besides the toe out, I also have problems picking up a lost stirrup. Which I KNOW I'm losing by not sinking enough weight into my heels. Maybe this will help all the way around!

[Ambrey]

My trainer specifically doesn't do no stirrup posting because he thinks it encourages people to grip with the knees. Just thought I'd mention that.

[Icecapade]

My trainer specifically doesn't do no stirrup posting because he thinks it encourages people to grip with the knees. Just thought I'd mention that.

how does using your feet to post cause you to use your knees to post?

Can someone explain the mechanics of that?

I can see more rotation and in an effort to stop excess rotation then pinching but actually using stirrups (which I'm not fond of anyway) i am having a hard time seeing the mechanics that lead to pinching in and of itself.

[Beasmom]

Great thread! Excellent points regarding core strength and rotating the leg from the hip joint to achieve the desired seat & position.

Due to hip pain, I visited a chiropractor. Fortunately, this fellow specializes in sports medicine and has knowledge of riding. He diagnosed a weak hip flexor on my right side and prescribed an exercise that has been very helpful. It worked so well after a week that my left hip flexor tested weaker than the right! I'm doing the exercises on both sides now.

Here is the exercise:

Lie on your back, legs outstreched. If you have a friend to help, that's good, but this can be done solo, too. Bring one leg (the weak one, if you have one) up towards your chest, knee bent, leg slightly outward to get the maximum involvement of the hip flexor. Push against the leg with your corresponding hand, or have your friend try to push your leg away (back down, that is). Count to 5, stretch the leg down, then reposition it, with the knee slightly farther away from your pushing hand. Repeat, and reposition the knee again slightly farther away. Repeat. You'll repeat the isometric cycle 5 times in total, positioning the knee a little farther away each time. It's hardest at the lowest position. This exercise helps strengthen core muscles as well as the hip flexor.

I would add that when posting, the rider should NOT be using the stirrups. Pushing against the stirrups creates a tight leg. So while I avoid stirrupless posting for other reasons MOST of the time, it has its uses. The exercise described earlier in the thread is one. You should be able to have a friend put her fingers under your boot and on the stirrup tread without crushing her fingers. Dangly, jangly stirrups that you're constantly losing (involuntarily) indicates a tight, gripping thigh that pulls the knee up. Too much pressure in the stirrups is the flip side of the same coin and indicates a seat that is not yet independent.

Stirrup length can contribute to both problems -- many riders think they have to ride with an uber-long leg -- to the detriment of their overall security in the saddle.

[Ambrey]

how does using your feet to post cause you to use your knees to post?

Can someone explain the mechanics of that?

I can see more rotation and in an effort to stop excess rotation then pinching but actually using stirrups (which I'm not fond of anyway) i am having a hard time seeing the mechanics that lead to pinching in and of itself.

I am assuming you mean "how does NOT using your feet to post..."

The weight has to be supported somewhere when it's not on the horse's back- most people would support it with their inner thigh and knee.

[Schiffon]

Have you ever skiied?

Think of the "snowplow" position when in the saddle. This will help you retrain your legs to bring the thigh in and point the toe forward. You can even put your hand under your thigh from the back of your leg and kind of pull the fat of the the thigh fat back to really feel the flatness of your leg against the saddle (Sue Blinks suggested this). Be sure you don't roll your wrists in at the same time.

This quote is just one example in this thread that I think intends to be helpful but is what one person has heard or experienced, and can be harmful to others who are not built the same way.

The more I have learned through pilates (both theory and my own physical journey over the last 3 years), the more I have come to decide that the oft-repeated equitation mantra to roll the thighs in can be a very counterproductive thing. Sure, some people have posted here a number of other things that should be combined with rolling the thighs in, but it is complicated and what remains is the idea of rolling the thighs in.

There are 3 different posture types besides ideal: swayback, flatback and lordotic. Each of these 4 postures, when on horseback, is going to produce a different way of sitting and legs hanging on the saddle. An instructor who does not understand these thing and just yanks the leg into position or an internet poster who has not even seen the rider but prescribes exercises, is only going to help a subset of people. The other 1/2 or 2/3 will have the same goals but need to concentrate on different things to achieve them.

[Arathita]

Schiffon,

The OP asked for advice on how to prevent her toes from sticking excessively out. She did not provide a picture or a video. People like me had a thought that could help her and thus typed it in. This is advice that I've heard from a variety of clinicians so it appears to work for a good number of people. I am assuming that the OP can decide for herself what is and is not harmful to her body, and what will and will not work for her. I think she mentioned that she has an instructor. If no one posted unless a picture, video, synopsis from a qualified doctor or veterinarian was presented, then this board would be quite inactive and boring.

[tollertwins]

So I have NEVER been able to keep my toes from sticking out.

I have recently been having hip problems and have been going to a sports med specialist.

Turns out that my hip sockets don't point forward. Dr. says no WAY would I be able to sit a horse and point my toes forward.

Note that my toes do NOT point out when I walk.

For more info - google acetabular retroversion.

[Melissa.Hare.Jones]

tollertwins makes a good point... not all conformation accomodates the "perfect seat". However, you can work within your own limitations to get as balanced and connected as possible. Most of it is just taking the time to pay attention to and practice the details over and over and over....