ISR vs. Old NA ???

[ilikridn]

I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but I can't find it. I can't find any explanation on the ISR Old/NA site either. It simply says that foals will be branded either ISR or Old/NA. What's the difference?

My mare is branded ISR and her papers say International Sporthorse Registry. Her stamp for Main Mare Book says International Sporthorse Registry AND Oldenburg Registry North America.

I'm confused... could someone please explain why there are two names and two brands for what appears to be the same registry? Sorry for my ignorance.

[Couture TB]

Ah wish I could help but I get confused that a Hano bred to a Hano can get Oldenburg papers :)

[showjumpers66]

ISR papers and Old/NA papers are very different. ISR papers are basically a certificate of pedigree. Either the pedigree of the parents was not sufficient (unregistered or was an unapproved breed such as Quarter Horse or Am. Saddlebred) or one of the parents lacked quality to be approved. Old/NA papers are issued for foals with sufficient papers from approved parents.

[Dressage_Diva333]

Showjumpers66 is correct.

Here's kind of a line of examples:

I have a mare who is ISR (because her sire was not approved OLD/NA), even though she scored 107pts. This mare was bred to an OLD/NA approved stallion, that filly got ISR Registration Papers, but is approved into the MMB of OLD/NA, so when she was bred to an OLD stallion, that filly got OLD/NA papers :)

[ilikridn]

Well, sire was Westphalian, dam was TB. So I suppose it could be that her dam was not approved.

So if this mare is stamped for Main Mare Book ISR and Old NA and the stallion I breed her to is Old NA, then the resulting foal would be registered and branded Old NA? Is that correct?

[Dressage_Diva333]

I believe that is correct. I'd contact the registry to be sure though. ISR/OLD is typically pretty good about responding to emails and phone calls in a timely fashion.

[ilikridn]

thanks, Dressage_Diva... your example worked perfectly for me! :)

[GAF]

Next question... I have a mare who was not inspected as a foal due to injury. Her former owner never did the registration & she is now coming 3 in May. I have all the paperwork (breeding certificate, DNA, copy of dam's papers) but was told I can only get ISR papers for her. Is that correct? BOTH sire & dam are approved Old NA. Her dam was a Premium mare (MMB?) if that makes any difference.

[Dressage_Diva333]

Next question... I have a mare who was not inspected as a foal due to injury. Her former owner never did the registration & she is now coming 3 in May. I have all the paperwork (breeding certificate, DNA, copy of dam's papers) but was told I can only get ISR papers for her. Is that correct? BOTH sire & dam are approved Old NA. Her dam was a Premium mare (MMB?) if that makes any difference.

I have almost exactly the same situation, except that my mare is now 7. I have the original breeding certificate, sire is ISR/OLD NA approved, dam is was an imported Hano mare who was in the MMB of AHS, and ISR/OLD NA, however, she was presented to ISR/OLD NA before GOV split off from them. I didn't want another ISR mare, so I've talked with GOV, and am getting papers through them, she just has to be presented this summer with her foal :) Might be worth shooting GOV an email explaining your situation, and seeing about getting papers through them.

[GAF]

I have almost exactly the same situation, except that my mare is now 7. I have the original breeding certificate, sire is ISR/OLD NA approved, dam is was an imported Hano mare who was in the MMB of AHS, and ISR/OLD NA, however, she was presented to ISR/OLD NA before GOV split off from them. I didn't want another ISR mare, so I've talked with GOV, and am getting papers through them, she just has to be presented this summer with her foal :) Might be worth shooting GOV an email explaining your situation, and seeing about getting papers through them.

Thanks! I will look into getting GOV papers on her. I really don't want an ISR mare & it would seem she meets all the requirements for Old NA registration. It puzzles me why she can't be Old NA? :confused:

[IronwoodFarm]

The ISR/OLDNA are two registries. I have an ISR MMB mare. She is in their main mare book not because she didn't score very well on her evaluation, she didn't have the right papers. Her parentage was fine, but she wasn't registered in an approved registry. Please note the placement in the breed books is NOT registration. Her foals get ISR papers, but she has no papers. Her filly will be evaluated in the fall and she is eligible the OLDNA MB. She has the right registration papers because I made the effort to have her dam evaluated.

[ilikridn]

If you have a mare with pink ISR papers, does that mean it is incorrect to call her an Oldenburg mare? Are you supposed to refer to her as an ISR mare instead? ugh... so confusing! but... I learn something new on COTH every day, it seems.

[Janeway]

If you have a mare with pink ISR papers, does that mean it is incorrect to call her an Oldenburg mare? Are you supposed to refer to her as an ISR mare instead? .

You are correct, she is not an Oldenburg mare. To confuse things more, there are actually three registries at play here: ISR, Old/NA and Oldenburg Verband (GOV). And just to warn you that die hard Oldenburg breeders belonging to the GOV have all collectively cringed at the implication that your ISR mare is an Oldenburg! ;)

Here's my rundown:

ISR - mares that don't have the paperwork for OLD/NA
OLD/NA - just as it says, Oldenburgs bred in America, w/ American rules
GOV - German Verband approved registry that follows German rules

Calling her an ISR mare is a bit of a mouthful, and not everyone outside of the breeding world will know what it stands for, so why not just refer to her by her breeding: Oldenburg/Thoroughbred cross? :) (or even just Oldenburg bred if that's what her parentage is)

[Equibrit]

Oh no .............PAX.

1.http://www.isroldenburg.org/ Domestic registry. Your horse is registered here.
2.http://www.oldenburghorse.com/ German registry in USA. Your horse is not registered here.

PLEASE just read the requirements for registration yourself.

Now quit before Down Yonder turns up to give you a tongue lashing!

[ilikridn]

Calling her an ISR mare is a bit of a mouthful, and not everyone outside of the breeding world will know what it stands for, so why not just refer to her by her breeding: Oldenburg/Thoroughbred cross? :) (or even just Oldenburg bred if that's what her parentage is)


Dad's Westphalian, mom's TB. I didn't realize she wasn't Oldenburg until I got her papers out to get all my breeding stuff in order for this year. I've always referred to her as Oldenburg, although I did know there was a difference between Old/NA and GOV. (Old/NA being Oldenburg North American and GOV being German Oldenburg Verband)


ETA: To be clear... She has a stamp on her papers that says "International Sporthorse Registry, Oldenburg Registry North America -- Main Mare Book --" So... if I breed her to a stallion who is approved with the Oldenburg Registry of North America, can her foal be registered and branded Old/NA???

[Janeway]

To be clear... She has a stamp on her papers that says "International Sporthorse Registry, Oldenburg Registry North America -- Main Mare Book --?

I think I'm wrong then - because if she were just ISR her papers would say that and not include the Old/NA part. So yes, she is an Oldenburg then, just the American version and not a German one. :)

Caveat: I'm purposely not weighing in on the whole German Oldenburgs and American Oldenburgs aren't created equal theme that often comes up in these types of threads. According to Ilikridn's mare's papers, her horse is an American Oldenburg, regardless of whether one believes in that or not :cool:

[ilikridn]

No, you are right. Her papers themselves only say International Sporthorse Registry. I'm talking about when she was presented for inspection for breeding. It was before I owned her, but it looks like she has been approved for breeding with both the ISR and Old/NA. So I would assume her babies can be registered and branded Old/NA.

I'll ask the registry and find out for sure though.

thanks! :)

[tri]

Ah wish I could help but I get confused that a Hano bred to a Hano can get Oldenburg papers

Just wait until you realize that a Hano bred to a hano might NOT be able to get Hano papers even if both are approved Hano!!!

If you want me to tell you way it is this way in the U.S., I can give you a brief history - it isn't this way elsewhere.

[Equibrit]

You CAN look it up for yourself !
MARES http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=mares_eligibility&PHPSESSID=3ed416fed8c42bb7f823957c4a017536
FOALS http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=foals_eligibility

[Equibrit]

Ah wish I could help but I get confused that a Hano bred to a Hano can get Oldenburg papers :)

Because warmblood registries are OPEN REGISTRIES and NOT BREEDS.
What is inspected/accepted by one registry can be inspected/accepted by others.

[ilikridn]

I did look it up, but it doesn't do a very good job of separating the registries or explaining the difference. It keeps referring to them together.

Here is one place I found where it actually singles out Oldenburg:

"For Oldenburg registration the mare must be entered into the Premium or Main Mare Book. "

ETA: So I'll assume my mare's dam was not in the main mare book, and therefore my mare was registered ISR rather than Oldenburg. BUT... my mare IS in the main mare book for Oldenburg, so her foal will be registered Oldenburg.

[Equibrit]

MARES http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=mar...23957c4a017536



Mares, three years old or older, may be eligible for one of the four mare books. All mares must be presented at an inspection. Mares don't get branded for any of the books.

Premium Mare Book (ISR and OLD NA)

An overall score of not less than 105 points and no individual score of less than 6.0 points.
Proof of pedigree of 3 generations with more than 75% approved bloodlines* and an official registration documentation from an approved registry*.
(* for details see Registries and Bloodlines)
< TOP >
Main Mare Book (ISR and OLD NA)

An overall score of not less than 94 points and no individual score of less than 5.0 points.
Proof of pedigree of 3 generations with more than 75% approved bloodlines* and an official registration documentation from an approved registry*.
(* for details see Registries and Bloodlines)
< TOP >
Mare Book (ISR only)

An overall score of not less than 90 points and no individual score of less than 5 points.
Proof and official documentation (of an approved registry) of pedigree of 3 generations based on more than 50% approved sport horse bloodlines*.
(* for details see Registries and Bloodlines)
< TOP >
Pre Mare Book (ISR only)

Mares without an appropriate proof of pedigree of an approved registry, but whose overall score is not less than 90 points and no individual score of less than 5 points.
< TOP >
Upgrading of Mares

Premium Mare Book mares
who pass the Mare Performance Test with 70% or better and have presented at least one Premium Foal (with ISR) will be awarded as ELITE MARE.
Main Mare Book mares
who had at least 100 points at their inspection and pass the Mare Performance Test with 70% or better and have presented at least one Premium Foal (with ISR-Oldenburg N.A.) will be upgraded to the PREMIUM MARE BOOK.
Mare Book mares
who pass the Mare Performance Test with 70% or better and have presented at least one Premium Foal (with ISR) will be upgraded to the MAIN MARE BOOK if they fulfil the pedigree requirements described for the MAIN MARE BOOK.
A Mare Book mare
which has sufficient proof of pedigree as requested for the Main Mare Book can also be upgraded to the MAIN MARE BOOK, if she has 2 (ISR/OLD NA) premium foals or fulfils the requirements for the third star in the Star Award System for Mares.
The ISR registration of foals which have been born before the mare was upgraded cannot be changed into an OLDENBURG registration. Upgrades from other mare books or under different conditions are not possible.
< TOP >
Approved Registries + Bloodlines

Approved Registries:
Registration documents of the following registries will be accepted as proof of parentage, if they show at least a complete three generation pedigree or if official documentation of pedigree can be provided as a separate document (e.g. Equineline pedigree):
American Hanoverian Soc., American Holsteiner Horse Ass., Am.Trakehner Ass., Arabian Horse Registry of Am., Belgian Warmblood Breeding Ass./NA, The Dutch Warmblood Studbook in NA, North Am.Selle Francais, Swedish Warmblood Ass. NA, Jockey Club, CAN Sport Horse Ass., CAN Warmblood Horse Breeders Ass., North American Shagya-Arabian Society
From Europe: All German Warmblood Breeding Associations, Belgium, Danish, KWPN, Selle Francais, Swedish
Approved Bloodlines for Mares and Stallions are:
All European based Warmblood bloodlines from one of the listed European or North American Registries, Arabian bloodlines and North American Shagya-Arabian Society (if officially documented), Thoroughbred bloodlines (if Jockey Club documented)


FOALS http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=foals_eligibility

Registration

In order to receive official ISR or Oldenburg N.A. registration documents each foal/yearling
must be presented at an ISR/Oldenburg inspection in the year it is born (see also section INSPECTIONS for details)
must be out of a mare entered into one of the Registry´s Mare Books or eligible to be entered into one of them (mare can be registered and presented at the same time as the foal). Check section MARES for eligibility of mares.
must be by an ISR/Oldenburg N.A. Licensed or Approved Breeding Stallion or the sire must have had a Certified Breeding License for the year of breeding. Check the STALLIONS site for the list of approved stallions.
For Oldenburg registration the mare must be entered into the Premium or Main Mare Book.
For yearlings a letter of parentage verification (retrieve DNA forms for foal and dam from the section SERVICES) is required.
3yo and older are only eligible for ISR registration
Certificate of Birth

If either sire or dam are not approved by ISR/Oldenburg Registry NA the foal/yearling will be eligible for a Certificate of Birth. This is not a registration paper. These foals must also be presented at a regular inspection site.

[avezan]

ETA: So I'll assume my mare's dam was not in the main mare book, and therefore my mare was registered ISR rather than Oldenburg. BUT... my mare IS in the main mare book for Oldenburg, so her foal will be registered Oldenburg.

If the mare is approved in the Main Mare Book (MMB) and the stallion is approved, then the foal is eligible for Oldenburg NA papers and brand. If the foal does not score high enough or if the owner does not brand, he may only be get ISR papers. I leased a mare that we could not figure out why she did not have Oldenburg papers, but had ISR papers. She was never branded, hence was registered in the lower book. She was approved into the Premium mare book, however, and her foals are eligible for Oldenburg NA registration and branding.

[ilikridn]

Equibrit,

You really didn't need to copy all that. I've already read all of it. And my point was, that in the foal section, it refers to ISR and Old/NA together except in the one place that I copied and you highlighted.

[Equibrit]

So - what exactly is the problem?

[GAF]

Another question... Is there any registry that will issue full papers to a 3 yr old mare that wasn't inspected as a foal? I will look into GOV as suggested but I'm wondering if there are any other alternatives? RPSI? SWANA? AHS? Her sire is approved just about everywhere & Mom could still be inspected if needed. I will not consider one of the American registries (AWR/S).

[Equibrit]

READ ABOVE ^

[xsalute]

It is confusing all these different registries!! I have a Registered Holsteiner by a Registered Hannoverian (fabuleux) branded Oldenburg na filly.
Do you think I could present her to Oldenburg GOV or Hannoverian? I plan on breeding her at three.