Bad trees in Bates

[SCFHan]

Any one else have the tree in a Bates (mine is a Caprilli, about 10 years old) go bad? Took the saddle in b/c the flex points (where the changeable gullets plate ends sit) where cracked. When looking at that, saddle fitter notice that the tree, which is actually molded plastic was weaker and with minimal pressure, the seat area folded in half! Bates will send me a new one, but I had already had it wool flocked b/c the CAIR panels deflated and I don't think I want the same problems again with a new saddle!! Fitter said he has seen about 100 Bates/Wintecs do this before.

I guess one good thing is it gives me an excuse to upgrade to a new saddle!

[LARGEBORE]

I am wondering if Bates is using the same tree as the Wintecs. I know the Wintecs would spread very easily.

[dalpal]

I don't know if the same hold up for Bates....BUT, they were willing to take back the Wintec that I had and replace it for free.

Saddle fitter came out to look at my Prestige...saw that I had a Wintec too. She told me that if the plate was cracked in that saddle, they would send me a free replacement. She opened it up, and it was indeed cracked. Paid 75.00 for two way shipping and got a brand new Wintec.

Now, of course this is a Wintec....not sure if they would do it on the Bates, but I would certainly ask.

[SCFHan]

I think they do b/c I bought a Wintec 2000 AP before I bought the Bates (just to have an AP saddle around-used to jump often, no more) and fitter said to bring that one in some time too so he could check it as well.

[pattnic]

Is the Bates tree the same as the Wintec trees? The "life" of a Wintec tree is only 10 years:

http://www.wintec.net.au/products/dressage/Wintec500Dressage.pdf

Scroll to bottom

[SCFHan]

Bates will replace my saddle, less shipping but even if they have improved some, I still worry about some of the same issues. Plus I know that I will have to have it wool flocked as well at some point, since the Cair panels die eventually.

Looking into getting a Prestige this time.

[LARGEBORE]

Is the warranty on the Bates tree the same short ten year period as the Wintec? It seems even the cheapest saddles have a lifetime warranty on the trees.

[SCFHan]

Not sure about the Bates, I do know that I have had this saddle about 10yrs, maybe longer and the fitter said he did not forsee a problem getting a replacement.

[CatOnLap]

Pattnic, thanks for the link.
Wintec trees are "guaranteed for the life of the saddle (10 years)".
This is a bit misleading, as they advertise "Lifetime guarantee". To me this means, a HUMAN lifetime, not the lifetime of a chicken ( 10 years).

Suddenly, looking at my 20, 30, and 50 year old saddles still in regular use, the Wintecs are no longer a bargain. I mean the isabell around here is going for $1200- if it only lasts 10 years, its hardly a bargain compared to a leather saddle on a wood spring tree costing twice as much, because that saddle is likely to last at least 20 years and more.

I bought a Wintec isabell and returned it to the store as it did not sit straight on the horse and threw me off to the left. The Wintec company swore it could not be the CAIR panels deflating as they say they cannot deflate, not being airbags, but being a closed cell, air containing gel foam. Then they said the tree could not be twisted as they are all "checked before assembling the saddle". Nevertheless they did agree that the saddle did not sit straight and gave me a full refund, which was great.

[dwblover]

CatOnLap you just made me laugh so hard with that lifetime of a chicken comment!:lol:I actually had no idea that the Wintec guarantee was only ten years. I just bought a Bates Innova last year so I'm wondering about the guarantee on the Bates as well. SCFHan please let us know if your saddle does get replaced by Bates.

[SCFHan]

Like I mentioned earlier, the Cair panels do go bad b/c I took the option of just flocking the saddle. My saddle fitter said he has sent several back that he had flocked after the tree went bad and Bates did replace the saddle. I think I have pretty much decided to go with another brand period. Fitter said he will send my Bates back, he'll keep the new one and then give me what I paid for my Bates new and apply it to another saddle of my choice. Seems fair enough for me.

I loved my Bates, but why get back into the same issues again years from now.

[CatOnLap]

Hey I am not arguing with you, but Wintec/Bates will, SCFHan. I told them I thought one of the cair panels wasn't properly inflated or had gone flat on the one I bought, and they said it was impossible!
At least the company is refund/exchange friendly. That's important.

[aurorag16]

I don't know about the Bates, but the new Wintecs come with the option of wool flocked panels or CAIR panels. And, bonus, the wool flocked panels are cheaper.

I did read on the wintec site that there is a 10 year warrenty on the tree but only a 5 year on the CAIR panels. Hummmm....

[SCFHan]

CatOnLap, I must have worded it wrong but I AGREE that the CAIR panels DO deflate, that is why I had mine wool flocked. I first noticed a ridge across each panel, in between the two air bladders on each panel.

I was told that Bates only comes with CAIR panels, so IF I did get another Bates I would have choosen to go ahead and wool flock from the beginning.

[Jaegermonster]

That's bs that the panels don't deflate. I am dealing with that issue now. I have a Caprilli that is at the saddlers now getting reflocked. You should see what is in those things.
It's not one panel thing, it's two of them and they are held together with DUCT TAPE.
Yes duct tape. The little panel things look like what's used for packing material, those little air balloon things, with some foam in them.And the area where they are duct taped is right in the middle of where the seat is under where your butt would be.
So along with dealing with the saddle I am also dealing with a horse with a messed up back until she has had enough chiro etc to straighten it out.

[Foxtrot's]

Jaeger - is it too late to get pictures. This horrifies me - I love my Bates Caprilli, so far, but never dreamed it would not be a lifetime saddle (not a chicken's lifetime, either!).
I'm going back to Passier because I've seen inside one and know the amazing workmanship.

[Jaegermonster]

The saddler (Ava Vettenburg) called me today. She already has the saddle apart but said she would send me the air things back with the saddle next week. I'll take some pics then and try to post. I have never heard of such a thing. I would expect it from the $125 saddle package from State Line or something but not a $1400 bates.
Ava is currently working for Tad Coffin, but she has her own site and also takes saddles on her own for repairs etc if anyone is interested.She used to be in High Springs, FL but moved to Va when she was hired by Tad.