strange lunging behaviou

[lorilu]

Just wondering if anyone has experienced this, or has any insight.

Background: My horse has a bolting issue. He has a fear flight response, but it is also his way of getting out of more work. I suspected it in the past, and now that we have learned how to lunge him I believe it is his main evasion. (He has a bad history regarding lunging; apparently someone in his past really scared him, and we were unable to lunge him at all before someone showed us a method involving a siderein-like attachment that prevents him from throwing his head up and bolting off. He's 17H and strong)


He lunges in his bridle, line through bit ring and over the poll. He has the attachment on, also.
I vary the circles, in to smaller ones, out again, many transitions, trying to keep it interesting, but not tempting fate. Later I plan to add some groundpoles.

Yesterday things started off really well. This was the third time I have lunged him. He even quietly picked up a nice canter on his own a few times from a forward trot. After a while, he began to lean heavily on the bit/"sidereins".... I raised my "rein hand" as I would while riding...and then there it was.... he tried to leave dodge. I got him stopped, and we went back to work.


NOW FOR THE CURIOUS PART:
Just about the time I was going to stop, he went into a "zone". He was trucking on, and on, and on.... no amount of tugs, or words, or bringing him in to a smaller circle (until he got scared at the size of it) would get him down from the trot!! He was not wild eyed, this was not a "trot bolt", he was just.... zoning. Around and around.

A good 20 minutes!! He FINALLY came down, and we walked, he was calm, ....

I have never experienced anything like this. Any ideas?

L

Oh, and he has today off.... I am going to lunge him again tomorrow.

[CatOnLap]

well, I wouldn't allow a horse to zone on the longe for 20 minutes.
If it were me, I would bring him into the center immediately upon zoning out and stop him that way, if I couldn't stop him through other cues. The I'd start again.
With a horse that tends to "bolt" on the longe, if you have the luxury of a sturdy fence or wall, you can always run him into the fence too. I've never seen any of them hit the obstacle and its usually a big surprise that they have to suddenly stop if they've previously been allowed to run themselves in circles.

[Anselcat]

I have seen a horse do this -- not an "I'm not paying attention" or "I'm ignoring you so I can play" thing, but a mental shut-down. Unfortunately I have no suggestions and I don't know what ultimately happened with that horse, but I've seen it.

[mjmvet]

I wonder if you could make some progress by long lining him instead? Sounds like lunging is a real 'poisoned cue' for this horse.

[dotneko]

My first question would be - how often does he
'pick up a nice canter on his own' ? The horse should
not be doing anything on his own on the lunge.
Is there extraneous talking while you are lunging?
No, that's a good boy, just a few more circles etc.
Your voice should only be used for commands - walk,
tr - oot, can ter, etc. Make sure you are using distinct
verbal cues with no added fluff. Before you even go to
trot, test the breaks by doing many walk - halt transitions.
I can't count the number of horses I have tried to lunge
who don't understand 'whoa'. Make sure whoa only means
halt - it does not mean slow down.
I add the word 'and' before asking for a transition.
Once you are confident that the horse responds to correct,
succint, verbal cues, then you can talk about him zoning out
and ignoring you.
If there is even a step where you think the horse is not paying attention,
then you need to go back to square one.
Is the horse in sidereins? I am not sure what you mean when you are
talking about attachments?
I don't think I would go to long lining on a potential bolter until he has
a better understanding of the single line.

Dot

[Ibex]

As much as it makes me cringe to admit this, we started lunging mine with a chain over her nose to deal with zoning out :eek:

Just like a chain with a leadshank, it brings her back into reality quickly without it turning into a fight. When she's lunging nicely there's no pressure on the chain at all.

The full set-up is her bridle with side reins, and the halter/chain over top to make sure the bit and chain don't interfere with each other (I've seen people lunge with the chain threaded through the bit rings).

[twofatponies]

Personally I only like to lunge if the work is going to be as precise as ridden work, though I know many people use lunging as a warmup/calisthenics kind of thing, more than a precision thing. Nothing wrong with that.

But myself, esp. if the horse has some obedience issues (bolting), I would make lunging a precision activity. Every transition is when I request it, not listening is not tolerated, etc.

If he isn't listening to half halts on the line to slow him down (like making the transition pdq when you ask), then reel him in if necessary, or, if you feel confident about handling the results, make the half halts a little stronger.

Using the wall can be a great tool. Be aware that sometimes a horse can change directions off the wall if you don't line it up right. Had that happen once when I was first learning. Dear old mare stood there looking baffled, lunge line wrapped around her head! Lunging inside a round pen can help - perfect shape.

I like long lining too - it is much more precise. But you need to practice a few times on a horse that already knows it, as you have two lines and a whip to manipulate, and you don't want to be figuring that out with a bolter.

[Jealoushe]

what 2fatponies said, use the wall. You can also put trot poles on a circle just outside of your circle so if he starts zoning out just push him out to the outer circle and over the poles. Just a change up that will make him think and wake up.

[jcotton]

Are you lunging in a round pen or without walls?
Sounds to me that this horse has not joined up with you--he has no connection with you and to a certain extent - trust or friendship with you.
I would put him in a round pen and go back to basics of him paying attention to you by your actions. Perhaps finding some help of someone with Monty Roberts experience or watch some videos on round pen work.

[Ibex]

Are you lunging in a round pen or without walls?
Sounds to me that this horse has not joined up with you--he has no connection with you and to a certain extent - trust or friendship with you.
I would put him in a round pen and go back to basics of him paying attention to you by your actions. Perhaps finding some help of someone with Monty Roberts experience or watch some videos on round pen work.


Word of caution on that one... we do some groundwork like this with mine, but if she's already distracted and her head leaves the building, you have absolutely NO way of getting control back over the situation if you're working them loose.

[twofatponies]

Word of caution on that one... we do some groundwork like this with mine, but if she's already distracted and her head leaves the building, you have absolutely NO way of getting control back over the situation if you're working them loose.

Well, you do if you are quick and experienced. But it's not as easy as it looks on videos. Productive roundpen work requires a focused, planned interaction with the horse, directed by your body and whatever whip/rope/flag you are using to back up your body movements.

And not to get too off track, but lunging, long lining, pretty much any horse training activity is not too hard to learn how to do when you are working with a horse that is more or less mellow, responsive, paying attention, etc. But every once in a while you are going to hit one of those situations where the horse's reactions are way above your mastery of the training technique to handle, and then it's not really about whether you are long ling, lunging or using a round pen. It's about whether you have the quick reflexes, timing, confidence and years of experience to respond exactly as you need to to keep yourself safe and teach the horse what he needs to know in that moment.

So if it gets to that point (or even before it gets there), I'm always a big supporter of calling in a more experienced trainer to help you out, rather than try to muddle through and end up getting hurt.

[merrygoround]

I see no fault in using the voice as an encouragement, or as a warning against bad behavior on the longe.

I can well understand on selective occasions using a chain over the nose, as a last resort.

I prefer a bridle and a well fitted leather cavesson, and side reins. One clown thought it was great fun to rock back and strike at the longe line where it connected to the cavesson. He quickly found himslf being longed with the line through the bit ring and up over his head. :)

Horses hanging on the longe usually are just not going forward. :sigh: It's hard work getting them forward. :yes:

When they "zone out", they have usually mentally packed their bags and have gone somewhere else. Usually they are mentally or physically tired. The session, for them, at that time, has gone on too long.

Longeing, done properly is intense. Twenty minutes is usually more than enough time. And that with changes of direction. Never longe without a watch. ;) And keep those circles, large. Spiraling in , like the 10m circles under saddle comes later in the game.

[buck22]

Word of caution on that one... we do some groundwork like this with mine, but if she's already distracted and her head leaves the building, you have absolutely NO way of getting control back over the situation if you're working them loose.
actually, you do have quite a bit of control over a loose horse thats contained, especially in a round pen. you just need to be quick and assertive.

imho, I might suggest starting fresh with less.... I'm getting the impression that the mare is intensely bothered by something, be it tack, method, lack of understanding, lack of confidence, etc. I'd try to find out why she's bolting, rather than figuring a way to stifle it.

I'd suggest going back to a simple halter, experiment with and without a saddle on and see if there is a difference. Work in a small circle at a walk, gradually make the circle larger, at the first sign of anxiety, turn the horse and go in the opposite direction... do not allow zoning, and do not stop, keep her moving but under your control, when you loose control make the circle smaller or change direction. When she is calm, graduate to trot with lots of transitions. Allowing a canter to slip in there with an otherwise calm horse is not something I get upset about personally, I like a forward thinking horse as long as its calm and confident... I just say "thanks for the forward, but not what I wanted, trot please.":D

the "zoning" you describe is giving me the mental image of a horse that is just trying to 'deal' with something about the setup that bothers it intensely.

just my 2¢ for wahtever its worth

[lorilu]

Thanks for all the replies

Thanks, Anselcat, you seem to know what I am talking about. This was like no behavior I have ever seen (I have been around horses for a long lime, older than dirt) Buck22, great ideas.... except for loose in the pen... all of which we do. LOts of ground work.

In answer to some questions: Tried the wall.... he tried to bolt when he came up to it. Tried to bring him in... as the circle approached less than 10 M, he started to get woriied. As I am trying to NOT create issues, I did not go any farther in. DOn't want this big boy sitting on or running over me.

We are in an enclosed arena. 4 Foot fence. The RP at this farm is way too fragile for him. He almost took one out at another farm, when we discovered he did not lunge or long line. He panicked at the sight of the second line coming over his back. He is 17H, Perch/TB big boy

I am using my voice inteligently, don't worry. I DO use it for reassurance, he responds very well to the "good boys". I am trying to instill confidence, not jsut make him work.

We DID many transitions, as I said in the post.

With just the halter is not an option - he bolts hard and is not stoppable with the line dragging behind him. I know. Been there, trying to avoid it again. As I said, we are trying to get him to discover that bolting is not a way to get out of work.

RE Monty R type work: One of the problems is that someone DID this stuff to him, apparently. Lunge whips and noises behind him send him off. He has, I am sure, been chased thru a jump pen or worked in a round pen and that scared him. He is VERY afraid of a round pen, claustrophobic.

We are doing ALOT of work on the ground with basic horsemanship. He si very receptive to it and calm in it. INCLUDING the "walk around me on a lead line" and haunches out etc etc.

Like I said, I was ready to close the successful session when he "packed his bags". I KNOW it's hard work, and DID NOT want to go on for so long.

I have a trainer that I work with 2X weekly (and who is on site at the farm), and another who helps me with this horse specifically, as he was in his barn for a while last year, for sale as a jumper (his former life; I put him for sale when he bolted with me; due to the economy he did not sell, so I am riding him and really trying to get the breakthrough.).

The "attachment" is basicly a rope version of sidereins that allows for lateral flexion better than side reins do. It also prevents him from throwing his head WAY up and bolting off. NO way could I stop a run by him without it. He can stretch into the bit just fine on it.

L

[Jealoushe]

Try the trot poles.

Time to teach voice commands. Work him at just the walk on the lunge for the next little bit and try the walk and whoa commands. When he is good, and not bolting, then he can upgrade to trot. So on, and so forth.

Unless he's jumping the fence, using the corner or the wall will work. You need to make your circle smaller.

[Ambrey]

I just had a lovely chat with a friend who came to visit today, about some issues I have with my guy. One of them is that he finds excuses to be a brat on the longe- not the same issue as you're having, but with similar roots in just not paying attention.

Anyway, my friend has 10 horses and I guess she's learned a thing or two ;) She suggested I not start out with trot/canter (my usual mode, as he starts out very stiff and I am trying to supple him) but do a lot of walk work and transitions, and focus the entire session on keeping his attention on me. I thought it was good advice, and I'm going to try it- and I thought I'd share in case it helps you too :)

[slc2]

Horses take off for one of six reasons on the longe line:

1. Because they are fresh

2. Because they are losing their balance and falling in

3. Because they are not getting enough exercise or focused work or both

4. Because they are getting too much grain/alfalfa

5. Because they were taught to buck run and act wild on the longe by a person with a big whip

6. Because they can

Or some mixture of the above.

I disagree, to a point, with dotneko as far as 'he is never supposed to do anything other than exactly what you tell him' on the longe.

I don't like to have things quite that strict. I understand the concept, and things get to a point where I think it's too much...BUT...I don't like to have time that has to be spent on the longe a deadly drill. As one trainer once told me, 'Why the bl**** he*** are you pulling the *** **** horse up! You want him to be forward, don't you!' (It was much longer than that, actually). To a point, I agree. I DO want my horse to be forward, and if I DO have to longe him, I don't want it to be a deadly drill.

Some horses NEED to get a good old buck and run and carry on now and again. In some situations (training barn, winter) they can't run in the pasture or paddock, and they can't really get out and move around. Some horses just are not happy unless they can play some. My Welsh pony even needs that, if he doesn't get a big old wild moment in a few times a week, he's pretty glum.

It just has to be tempered with some caution. SOME horses can learn to play on the longe in a safe way that isn't likely to cause harm - buck, play about, without careening around torquing on their legs by spinning around a tiny circle, though not every one seems to be able to teach their horse that - it's kind of a trick. A friend of mine had a command, 'now buck', and 'alright, enough', and yes, her horse understood, but it was, after all, a Connemara. And we know how smart they are ;).

As far as under saddle, people vary in what they agree is a real 'bolt'. Some say, to be 'bolting' a horse has to slam into a brick wall, ,if a horse just runs when you don't want it to, they don't call that a bolt, especially if you can even eventually, stop him. If your horse is spurting ahead and you can't stop him for a couple times around the ring or he runs the length of the arena, a lot of people don't say that's 'the brain is gone'.

And I tend to agree.

There are two ways to stop a horse that 'gets a little strong', and neither of them are turning him into the wall. That only works on very quiet horses with very little energy.

Some people will tell you to stand up in the stirrups, and say, alright, run then. If you think you can stay on and no one else is going to be frightened to death, it does seem to work sometimes. If the horse is one of those 'tight' ones that gets claustrophobic when you get a little too rigid in the reins, letting themm gallop on sometimes works (well you don't just let them, you do make them go when they get to where they want to slow down), they get a little of the tension out and don't feel so claustrophobic.

Others will tell you you have to set the horse down with a pulley rein or a form of a pulley rein. You have to have a solid position anchoring you in the saddle to apply a pulley rein. With a pulley rein, you don't pull the head around drastically to one side; the pulley rein just allows you to give an effective controlling rein aid from a stable position.

It's not wise to whip the head around while the horse is moving fast, you could make him fal.

BUT...it can work to 'double' the horse right as he's starting to go, it 'takes his neck away from him', he can't get away from you as much with his neck turned.

THE HARD PART IS timing. You have to get his neck away from him before he gets it out straight in front of him and gets his nose out. You have to get the timing right and you have to be very quick, and you have to do it from a stable enough position that you're anchored and braced.

Some horses run off by putting their head DOWN, others by putting it quite high up with the nose poked out, a very, very strong position, a virtually invulnerable position, this underscores how important it is to keep the horse out of whatever position he prefers and bending is how to do it.

The bottom line is, you have to have an independent seat and hand.

A lot of times, with a big strong horse, this is a power game. THey have plenty of energy and they like having fun, so they play with you. You're SUPPOSED to like it.

If you try to stop them, it becomes a contest of wills and a struggle of 1500 lb of horse against 150 lb of person. Unless you know how to set yourself and when and how to respond, you will lose. If you take back on both reins or get pulled or bounced out of a stable position, you lose the ability to give an effective correction.

If you get forward, you're toast.

Around about five, usually, they start to try you out. They'll hear a noise, up comes the head, they see if you respond calmly and firmly to stop them, if you don't turn them and their neck is straight out in front of them, they can go, and they do. Even the quietest of horses can get the habit. With my old horse when he was at the bolting age (about 5), he started taking off. The trainer yelled, 'STOP HIM!' I said, 'I can't!' The trainer said, 'Well you better find a way'. And that's what you do. You figure out how to stop them. And no, it doesn't generally qualify for the title of one of the more refined moments of the history of dressage.

If you need some help, sometimes a string or one draw rein, from the girth strap on the saddle to the bit and back to your hand, can help you get that strong neck bent and under control. They usually have one side they get stronger on so that's where the string goes. No piece of equipment is guaranteed to be safe or effective when a horse is overly frisky, strong and big, but sometimes, a string can help you get your horse's neck under control.

[lorilu]

Thanks, slc2. I think it's a combo of "because they can" and "he was taught", except I think it is through fear that the lessons were taught. And I'll add another one - I think it is one of his evasions of work. If he did it right off the bat, then I'd say he's fresh, but he does it a while into the session, whether it's longe or under saddle.

He goes out all night in a nice big field, eats a low starch feed, and gets T&A.

It was more the zoning I was concerned about. I believe he will learn that he cannot bolt off to escape any more, at least on the line. Under saddle? So far I have stayed on. It's like a moving couch, and there is no blind run either.... so far I have either caught him on the first step or ridden him down in about 50 feet or so. Hopefully, learning he can't get away with it on the line will translate to the saddle. And the groundwork continues to build the relationship between us.

L

[slc2]

I don't agree that EITHER is the answer - ground work OR longeing.

You have to stop him under saddle. And you CAN. YOU CAN. All you have to do is catch him at the right time in the right way. Before he gets rolling, turn his neck, HARD, and double him. YOU CAN. You can solve this, and you can have a lovely horse. If I can do it, you can do it.

[egontoast]

For a horse that wants to just zone out (I take that to mean- not going completely insane -which is not good- but just going going going in the zone) as long as the horse does not have some physical issue that would make this unwise, just go with it but then always work them a little harder than they want to work.

if the horse is ' in the zone' and does not want to stop I don't get into a Big Fight to MAke them stop (because you will probably lose anyway) just let him go ( ho hum whatever no big deal lalala ) but when horsie decides it's time to stop, that's when you start putting him to work. That's the beginning of the session. Carry on as if the first part did not happen. Sure he;s tired now but he will learn.

If the horse is , on the other hand, just bolting off and galloping insanely on the lunge because someone has trained him to be nutz (and I have seen that ) I'd forget lungeing and ride the horse.

[JB]

I have seen a horse do this -- not an "I'm not paying attention" or "I'm ignoring you so I can play" thing, but a mental shut-down.

Exactly - mental shut down. The horse cannot deal with what's being asked, so he goes "autistic" on you.

How you go about trying to bring the horse out of that depends on the horse and the moment. Do it wrong, and the horse can explode out of it. Do it right and he's ok. You really want to prevent it in the first place though, so you'll have to learn what he does before he does that, and stop him from going there by asking him to do something he's VERY comfy with.

It really is a confidence issue, so you have to learn to read him in his state of "I thought I was ok with this, but things are heading South and I'm really not sure how to deal". It can be a tightening lower lip, stiff ears, wider eyes that are not soft anymore, stiffening of the under neck, and more.

[grayarabpony]

Word of caution on that one... we do some groundwork like this with mine, but if she's already distracted and her head leaves the building, you have absolutely NO way of getting control back over the situation if you're working them loose.


Of course you can. Putting the whip in front of the horse tends to bring them to a dead stop fairly quickly.

[Chall]

Exactly - mental shut down.
It can be a tightening lower lip, stiff ears, wider eyes that are not soft anymore, stiffening of the under neck, and more.
You are very observant. My guy will start jutting his lip out and holding his mouth tightly when he has had enough or feels I have been unjust. I agree with those who say some animals have a very good sense of justice and fair play.

[Ambrey]

Of course you can. Putting the whip in front of the horse tends to bring them to a dead stop fairly quickly.

Only if they are trained to have that reaction to having the whip put in front of them...

[JB]

You are very observant. My guy will start jutting his lip out and holding his mouth tightly when he has had enough or feels I have been unjust. I agree with those who say some animals have a very good sense of justice and fair play.
Yep, the lower lip stiffening and "pouting" is a great sign that things are not well, despite what the rest of the body appears to be saying :)

Only if they are trained to have that reaction to having the whip put in front of them...
and a horse should not be worked free until he really understands these basic concepts :) Free lunging is not the time/place to teach them, for the average owner. Put a line on and teach these things under controlled situations, working the line out, before turning the horse loose, even in a "small" roundpen.

But, the good horsemen can take a very wild horse and very quickly teach him that blocking his forward movement with a whip or hand or thrown rope means "stop going that way". NH professionals and good ol' cowboys do this all the time - it's how they start to get a handle on the wild critters without having to lay a hand on them. But the handler's body language HAS to mean it. It cannot be a "let me hold my body back here but toss the end of the lunge whip out there". Horsie will laugh at that ;)

[Ambrey]

But when horse gets "in the zone," sometimes he's not paying attention to body language.

I think this goes back to the other NH staple, repetition. Repetition is how to replace an instinct with a trained reaction.

[AnotherRound]

Wow, I've never experienced this. Is he like, sort of hypnotized kinda thing?

[slc2]

In other cultures long ago, it was called 'not paying attention'.

It's when your horse's gerbil has run away. Sort of like a birdie.:winkgrin:

[Ambrey]

In other cultures long ago, it was called 'not paying attention'.

It's when your horse's gerbil has run away. Sort of like a birdie.:winkgrin:

Sometimes your horse sends the gerbil away.

Or pretends the gerbil is gone, when really it was there the whole time.

[lorilu]

Thanks all.

I believe in alot of the NH stuff, and do the groundwork, but please READ my post - the whip is NOT an option. The last/first time we tried to lunge him here, in the open, it was an "Orange" stick that set him off, because we knew he was sensitive about whips. Neither is a roundpen, unless it is one of the solid ones the paso folks use, and I think that would get him going too because of the confinement. If he read body language, he would have stopped. Since we are only begining to do the lunging, he has not had a chance to learn MY lunging body language. He is learning the groundwork part pretty fast. He is a smart boy.

I Think the "signal" he gives is leaning on the reins.... since this is the first time I have seen the zoning (never seen it under saddle), that was the only thing I noticed. And it was very subtle, no crazy ears or eyes. Just a gradual getting on the forehand. And I have noticed that under saddle, too. Once he starts to lean, I usually begin to feel that it is only a matter of time before he leaves. SOmething changes - not sure what, almost like intuition. I pick my time and end the lesson. I want it to always be a positive experience, but I don't want him to learn that he has control of how much he works. It's a fine line.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, slc2. I have caught him a few times under saddle, but he has also gotten a few good 50 footers on me. The events come from the blue.... I have to be even more aware but not tense.... yeah.

Egontoast, also thanks. If it wasn't so hot Wednesday, and he still has some hair, and he didn't go on for SO long, I would have kept going, just as I did after he tried to escape.

I WISH I could lunge him without the side rein things. I am sure he would be more relaxed but still impossible to stop. The goal is to get there, though; I think our groundwork sessions will help that along. He will already walk around me well, with just a lead line; I am looking for a slightly longer line, but less than a lunge line.....

L

[mjmvet]

When I start a horse teaching it to longe, I like those 12 foot ropes the NH people use. (I just refuse to pay $85 dollars for one. I went to Home Depot, and cut my own) I start at the walk only, and make sure that the horse is responding to voice cues for 'walk' and 'ho'. Reward heavily for good responses. I use hay stretcher pellets myself, and mints for extra good responses, or for responding in a distracting environment, etc...an extra effort on the horses part. Only when I'm sure walk and ho are solid do I ask for a trot. I do maybe two or three strides with me walking along side the horse, then ask for ho. Reward. Make stopping as rewarding for him as going. When the 'ho' is solid from the trot, I might start letting out a foot or two of line only. Then practice transitions, always rewarding the 'ho'. Keep the sessions short and fun. If you start to see signs of tension or stress, its ok to ask for one more 'ho' and quit. Someone once said training is like dirty dishes. If you don't finish them tonight, they'll still be there in the morning. i.e. you don't have to solve the worlds problems tonight. Once the horse is really engaged with you this way, you should be able to tell pretty well when he's 'with you', and when he's getting stressed.

I keep the horse close in until he earns more distance. This involves a lot of jogging on my part, but its good for me! =) The reason I suggested close in work like this, or long lining, is that it may be significantly different from his other bad experiences (the round pen, the whip and lunging in general) that he'll have a better chance at forming a good association with it. Usually I'll start this work in a halter and 12 foot line instead of the whole bridle/side reins etc. Having different equipment also helps him say, 'Hey, this is a different exercise. Maybe I don't have to leave'. I had one friend with a bolter who used one of those Dually halters Monty Roberts sells - she thought it released better than a chain over the nose.

There are lots of ways to 'finesse' the in hand work. For instance, I know my horse enjoys moving out at a good trot. I'll make that her reward for executing a good, forward walk. I also know she likes to canter, but again, no cantering until you show me a good working trot. Then, of course, once she's cantering, she'll eventually want to stop. Stopping will be the reward for staying 'with me' at a nice, collected canter. And I usually end with a treat. It's good to guess what your horse really wants, and then use that as a reward for good work. Sometimes in the summer, after a good ride, I'll take all her tack off and let her loose in the arena for a good sand roll. Sometimes I'll take her out when I know the horses are about to go in for dinner, ask for two or three simple things, then bring her in as a powerful reward. Be creative, and make every session as fun for both of you as you can.

Best of luck,
M

[grayarabpony]

You need to get him desensitized to the whip, and stop letting him run around on his forehand. Good luck.

[JB]

But when horse gets "in the zone," sometimes he's not paying attention to body language.
Agree, which is why you have to either let him run his course, or do something really drastic to bring him out. Neither is right all the time, each can be right for any given horse most of the time, but sometimes you have to just guess and hope you're right :)

I think this goes back to the other NH staple, repetition. Repetition is how to replace an instinct with a trained reaction.
Absolutely! But it's not just an NH staple - it is THE staple of ALL good training :)

Wow, I've never experienced this. Is he like, sort of hypnotized kinda thing?
In a way, yes. Have you seen autistic children who cannot handle the amount of external stimulation they're receiving? Some start throwing tantrums, but some just shut down and go inside themselves and don't respond (well) to someone trying to talk to them. That's why I liken it to "going autistic on you".

In other cultures long ago, it was called 'not paying attention'.
But there's a difference. IME, a horse who just isn't paying attention is actively looking elsewhere. Over the fence, behind him, over the horizon, he's actively doing something. These "autistic" horses have actually gone internal - they don't see you, they don't hear you, they don't react normally to external stimuli. They keep trucking on doing whatever it was they were doing when they went inside themselves.

Thanks all.

I believe in alot of the NH stuff, and do the groundwork, but please READ my post - the whip is NOT an option. The last/first time we tried to lunge him here, in the open, it was an "Orange" stick that set him off, because we knew he was sensitive about whips.
IMVO, one of the first things you need to do then is properly sensitize and desensitize him to the whip. If you take him to shows, there will be lunge whips cracking. He needs to know they are not a weapon, and he needs to know how to properly respond to one. Now, he may never be a horse who just blindly accepts the concept of the whip, might always be wary of it, but as long as he's been taught to properly respond to its use, and not wig out just at its presence or someone else cracking it, then it has valid use and you have a safer horse :)

Neither is a roundpen, unless it is one of the solid ones the paso folks use, and I think that would get him going too because of the confinement. If he read body language, he would have stopped. Since we are only begining to do the lunging, he has not had a chance to learn MY lunging body language. He is learning the groundwork part pretty fast. He is a smart boy.
Then for now, until he's much better at reading you, don't lunge him. Keep your work much closer so that you can more actively influence his behavior. Or, keep the lunging to a walk and trot which are less exciting gaits. Keep the distance work short, interspersed with closer work. It really sounds like he has some confidence issues, so the more you can actively praise him (LOTS of hands-on praising if that makes him feel good :)) the better :)

I Think the "signal" he gives is leaning on the reins.... since this is the first time I have seen the zoning (never seen it under saddle), that was the only thing I noticed. And it was very subtle, no crazy ears or eyes. Just a gradual getting on the forehand. And I have noticed that under saddle, too. Once he starts to lean, I usually begin to feel that it is only a matter of time before he leaves. SOmething changes - not sure what, almost like intuition. I pick my time and end the lesson. I want it to always be a positive experience, but I don't want him to learn that he has control of how much he works. It's a fine line.
Great, sounds like you have found his "tell" :) Once you start seeing it, don't end the lesson though. Stop what you're doing and just stand for a few minutes until you feel/see him relax, or go back to something really simple and basic, which might just be an active, forward walk. If he likes lateral work, do some easy leg yielding or shoulder in mixed in with the walking. You don't want to teach him that "zoning" gets him out of work, though I don't believe these horses use that tactic that way. But you do want to take things down a few/several notches. For the first few times, that might be to just stand there. But then go do something easy, and THEN you can end the session unless you think he's back, and then you can continue work.

I WISH I could lunge him without the side rein things. I am sure he would be more relaxed but still impossible to stop. The goal is to get there, though; I think our groundwork sessions will help that along. He will already walk around me well, with just a lead line; I am looking for a slightly longer line, but less than a lunge line.....


IMVHO, if you cannot lunge him at the end of the line without side reins, then he doesn't need to be lunged at the end of the line at all.

You don't need a medium length line. KEEP your lunge line - that gives you room to allow him to drift but not escape. Just keep it coiled. Keep your work close - he can walk circles around you for quite a few weeks on a 12' line if that's what it takes. He can trot circles, working on the trot and walk transitions, on a 20' line for a while if that's what it takes. You're not asking him to trot for 20 minutes at a time on a line that short, you're working on the responses. No cantering until he's reliable at the walk and trot at the end of the line - without sidereins. And even then, for a while you only work on the canter departs, not really the canter itself.

[JB]

When I start a horse teaching it to longe, I like those 12 foot ropes the NH people use. (I just refuse to pay $85 dollars for one. I went to Home Depot, and cut my own) I start at the walk only, and make sure that the horse is responding to voice cues for 'walk' and 'ho'. Reward heavily for good responses. I use hay stretcher pellets myself, and mints for extra good responses, or for responding in a distracting environment, etc...an extra effort on the horses part. Only when I'm sure walk and ho are solid do I ask for a trot. I do maybe two or three strides with me walking along side the horse, then ask for ho. Reward. Make stopping as rewarding for him as going. When the 'ho' is solid from the trot, I might start letting out a foot or two of line only. Then practice transitions, always rewarding the 'ho'. Keep the sessions short and fun. If you start to see signs of tension or stress, its ok to ask for one more 'ho' and quit. Someone once said training is like dirty dishes. If you don't finish them tonight, they'll still be there in the morning. i.e. you don't have to solve the worlds problems tonight. Once the horse is really engaged with you this way, you should be able to tell pretty well when he's 'with you', and when he's getting stressed.

I keep the horse close in until he earns more distance. This involves a lot of jogging on my part, but its good for me! =) The reason I suggested close in work like this, or long lining, is that it may be significantly different from his other bad experiences (the round pen, the whip and lunging in general) that he'll have a better chance at forming a good association with it. Usually I'll start this work in a halter and 12 foot line instead of the whole bridle/side reins etc. Having different equipment also helps him say, 'Hey, this is a different exercise. Maybe I don't have to leave'. I had one friend with a bolter who used one of those Dually halters Monty Roberts sells - she thought it released better than a chain over the nose.

There are lots of ways to 'finesse' the in hand work. For instance, I know my horse enjoys moving out at a good trot. I'll make that her reward for executing a good, forward walk. I also know she likes to canter, but again, no cantering until you show me a good working trot. Then, of course, once she's cantering, she'll eventually want to stop. Stopping will be the reward for staying 'with me' at a nice, collected canter. And I usually end with a treat. It's good to guess what your horse really wants, and then use that as a reward for good work. Sometimes in the summer, after a good ride, I'll take all her tack off and let her loose in the arena for a good sand roll. Sometimes I'll take her out when I know the horses are about to go in for dinner, ask for two or three simple things, then bring her in as a powerful reward. Be creative, and make every session as fun for both of you as you can.

Best of luck,
M
Really great post :yes:

[Ambrey]

I agree that desensitization to the longe whip is going to be a key element- having that extension of your hand available during longing is really important. When I got my guy he was very sensitive to the longe whip (never crazy bad, but afraid) but now he is no more afraid of it than he is of my arm. He just had to realize that he was never going to be hit by it, ever. He had clearly learned somewhere in his life that it could be used for that.

eta: by hitting I mean some sort of pain/discomfort causing thing, not a tap or a touch.

[CatOnLap]

Lorilu- do you have a proper metal nosed longe cavesson to try? My 17.3 tank couldn't be stopped off the bit on the longe when I first got him, but he surely respected the properly fitted metal nosed cavesson from the very first time.

As for zoning- not all horses who zone out necessarily are overwhelmed, but they are definitely not listening to anything but internal cues. I had a great schoolhorse- very sensitive, very smart, but not at all reactive. When you gave the right cue, he was on it right away, when you weren't paying attention...sometimes he'd zone. Especially at canter on the longe. I could put a beginner up on him and put him into canter and he would circle endlessly. I am quite sure he was bored to tears, hypnotized by the walls going by repeatedly and watching his own movie in his head. Now this was great in hack classes, because he would keep absolutely steady rhythm, and canter lovely in front of the judges, and I would enjoy the "barbie doll ride". Until it was time to stop. How do you think I learned to always give preparatory half halts? On the longe though, with the beginner, I would sometimes have to yell "Able! WAKE UP", before he would transition down to trot and walk, with a rather sheepish look on his face.

[lorilu]

JB, thanks for the good ideas. I think you understand all the problems!

desensitizing is in the works.... up close it's OK, I have even ridden him with a whip fairly regularly.... but anything flapping at him and it's over. Right now all his carrots come in a plastic bag. (and he is a carrot *hore, so it works).

And I am looking for a good big lunging cavesson... I think I will have to order on line.

We are only w/T... unless he picks up the C, then I bring him down slowly. I do not ask for the C, because he could see that as just too inflamatory. He needs more trust in me, and it shows here.


And I will definately try to back off once I see him leaning. I missed the start of the zoning last time.... it was the first instance of it.... so now I am really going to watch for it.
I'll back off but not stop, just come down to a walk for a bit, maybe in to me for a treat or a mental break.

This afternoon is another go at it.

We all agree there is a good boy inside, not a mean bone, no agenda... just fears.

L

[Ibex]

Of course you can. Putting the whip in front of the horse tends to bring them to a dead stop fairly quickly.

Not necessarily if their brains have truly left the building. I'd assumed that too and nearly got run down. We got her attention back when someone stepped up beside the gate, and it seemed to "break" the zone.

Keep in mind that this horse seems to have been "cowboy" broke, and not in a good way. When the local NH/cowboy guy came to take a look, she took one look at his hat and her stress level went through the roof. He was able to work with her (he has an amazing rep for a reason), but now even stepping into the roundpen seems to create a whole new level of tension. When I put her back in sidereins (running to her whithers) instead of working her loose, it seems to create a better comfort zone for her and she keeps her head together.

[JB]

As for zoning- not all horses who zone out necessarily are overwhelmed, but they are definitely not listening to anything but internal cues. I had a great schoolhorse- very sensitive, very smart, but not at all reactive. When you gave the right cue, he was on it right away, when you weren't paying attention...sometimes he'd zone. Especially at canter on the longe. I could put a beginner up on him and put him into canter and he would circle endlessly. I am quite sure he was bored to tears, hypnotized by the walls going by repeatedly and watching his own movie in his head. Now this was great in hack classes, because he would keep absolutely steady rhythm, and canter lovely in front of the judges, and I would enjoy the "barbie doll ride". Until it was time to stop. How do you think I learned to always give preparatory half halts? On the longe though, with the beginner, I would sometimes have to yell "Able! WAKE UP", before he would transition down to trot and walk, with a rather sheepish look on his face.
Oh, agree, there is a difference between the "autistic" zone, and the "I know what I'm doing" zone :)

[JB]

desensitizing is in the works.... up close it's OK, I have even ridden him with a whip fairly regularly.... but anything flapping at him and it's over. Right now all his carrots come in a plastic bag. (and he is a carrot *hore, so it works).
Yes, it might take a good bit of work on this. Use all sorts of things to desensitize him to those things. I bought some cheap pool noodles and used those to help my OTTB mare through some of that. Started with just rubbing her all over, then tossing them out to her side, and finally tossing them AT her.

And I will definately try to back off once I see him leaning. I missed the start of the zoning last time.... it was the first instance of it.... so now I am really going to watch for it.
I'll back off but not stop, just come down to a walk for a bit, maybe in to me for a treat or a mental break.
Sounds good :)

[Anselcat]

I bought some cheap pool noodles and used those to help my OTTB mare through some of that. Started with just rubbing her all over, then tossing them out to her side, and finally tossing them AT her.

Stick a carrot in the pool noodle (if they're the kind with a hole) and start using that as the 'arm' that feeds carrots!

But seriously, I keep thinking of that (dutch? danish?) trainer who was convicted of abuse, and the video of her with a horse on the lunge, cranked with sidereins, repeatedly hitting him with the whip for no reason. Seems like extreme methods like that could lead to 'learned helplessness' on the lunge -- where there is no connection between the punishment and the horse's behaviour, causing the horse to be unable to react in the normal way.

Learned helplessness: A state in which an animal has learned not to respond to pressure or pain. Arises from inappropriate application of negative reinforcement, which results in the horse not being able to obtain release from aversive stimuli. If this continues over a period of time the horse will no longer make responses that were once appropriate.

I'm not saying this happened to the OP's horse, just thinking about why a horse might become unable to act rationally/respond to normal cues on the lunge or in the round pen. As opposed to a wild horse who, though wild, would be very attuned to 'normal' body language and reactions.

I am interested to hear how things go with this horse, can you update as you go, please?

Good luck.

[Icecapade]

totally off topic..

my BO uses noodles occasionally for a young colt she has... she was looking for more things to 'scare' him with to get him a little less spaztastic (said colt can be eating/drinking whatever and you can jump in front of his stall with a YEAH! and he won't budge)

other said colt (same work done... TOTALLY Different reactions) no noodles... but H AHHAHA flashlight. That yearling tried to take the barn down cause that flashlight was gunna EAT him.

All that being said... training said horse to be responsive to it and not dead/spaztastic to it is crucial.

Please do let us know how it goes I find this interesting.

[grayarabpony]

Not necessarily if their brains have truly left the building. I'd assumed that too and nearly got run down. We got her attention back when someone stepped up beside the gate, and it seemed to "break" the zone.

Keep in mind that this horse seems to have been "cowboy" broke, and not in a good way. When the local NH/cowboy guy came to take a look, she took one look at his hat and her stress level went through the roof. He was able to work with her (he has an amazing rep for a reason), but now even stepping into the roundpen seems to create a whole new level of tension. When I put her back in sidereins (running to her whithers) instead of working her loose, it seems to create a better comfort zone for her and she keeps her head together.

Someone stepping up beside the gate brought your horse out of the "zone", but you could not?

A horse can learn that a round pen is OK. In about 5-10 minutes. Really. If my pony can any horse can. :) (not a sarcastic smilie either)

I have a Half Arabian pony whose brains seem to leave her fairly quickly, with little provocation. Believe me, I'm doing her a favor when I nip that nonsense in the bud.

I think what terrifies horses more than anything is a handler that's not in charge. I've learned that the hard way..

[JB]

Stick a carrot in the pool noodle (if they're the kind with a hole) and start using that as the 'arm' that feeds carrots!
OMG, what a GREAT idea! I have no idea if mine have a hole, but sure won't take much to make one! Gives a whole new meaning to "carrot stick"! :lol:

But seriously, I keep thinking of that (dutch? danish?) trainer who was convicted of abuse, and the video of her with a horse on the lunge, cranked with sidereins, repeatedly hitting him with the whip for no reason. Seems like extreme methods like that could lead to 'learned helplessness' on the lunge -- where there is no connection between the punishment and the horse's behaviour, causing the horse to be unable to react in the normal way.
Oh absolutely. And yes, learned helplessness can end up with the horse "going autistic" on you as a means of self-preservation.

I'm not saying this happened to the OP's horse, just thinking about why a horse might become unable to act rationally/respond to normal cues on the lunge or in the round pen. As opposed to a wild horse who, though wild, would be very attuned to 'normal' body language and reactions.
It can happen with a horse who is just not very confident by nature, and who is over-faced with things we might otherwise see as "nothing to it". Most horses will react in a "bad" way, so most people just don't see the inward direction that some horses take as their way of escaping.

[JB]

Someone stepping up beside the gate brought your horse out of the "zone", but you could not?
I can believe it. The horse can be tuning his handler and the immediate environment out. Depending on the horse, it might just be as simple as that environment changing - a horse outside running loose, a different human walking up, starting to rain, something different enough.

I think what terrifies horses more than anything is a handler that's not in charge. I've learned that the hard way..
Depends on the horse. Some horses really don't know what to do if someone else isn't in charge, and they have zero desire to be. Most horses will just take charge though, either benignly (ie I'll go graze over there now, you can be dragged along if you like) and some can get downright dangerous (ie you aren't in charge, so now I'll say it - get out of MY way). They just really want someone to be in charge. If you won't do it, they will, so you'd BETTER do it if you know what's good for you ;)

[lorilu]

Here is what I know of his past:

Pensylvania, bred by a farm that does Perch/tb crosses - I don't know their name. I think all their horses have "Country" as the first part of their name. Gid is "Country Kettle" - no papers, tho. A part sibling is "Country Lovin'". He was jumping 5' (as a 6YO!!!) when I got him. Mini-prix, successful, knees up by his eyes. He was quiet when I rode him.

What I THINK:
He was pushed through jump alleys with something scarey on a whip.
He was broke by some no-nonsense types (he is very sensative, even if he is big)
He was never taught to use himself properly - he is big enough to just lift himself over a fence. His hind end was never really pushing (seen in vids and still pics)
He may have been in a driving accident, as he has a few strange small scars on his side and inside his hock. (good x-rays, tho, just superficial and small)
The place he was when I bought him was VERY busy. I think he was worked hard and regularly, and the amount of busy-ness kept him overwhelmed, so he did not notice much. Overstimulated.

What I really believe:
He wants to be good.
He will be awsome - the gaits are there, I have seen them and ridden them. NEVER felt a trot like that before - floaty and connected.
We just have to get there.

L

[grayarabpony]

I can believe it. The horse can be tuning his handler and the immediate environment out. Depending on the horse, it might just be as simple as that environment changing - a horse outside running loose, a different human walking up, starting to rain, something different enough.

Of course I can believe it too. What it means is that the horse isn't paying Jack Squat attention to the handler.


Depends on the horse. Some horses really don't know what to do if someone else isn't in charge, and they have zero desire to be. Most horses will just take charge though, either benignly (ie I'll go graze over there now, you can be dragged along if you like) and some can get downright dangerous (ie you aren't in charge, so now I'll say it - get out of MY way). They just really want someone to be in charge. If you won't do it, they will, so you'd BETTER do it if you know what's good for you ;)

You'll understand better if your mare foals and you raise a horse from babyhood. You'll have a much better time of it if you're in charge from the get-go.

[JB]

Of course I can believe it too. What it means is that the horse isn't paying Jack Squat attention to the handler.
What I'm saying is that the horse isn't necessarily ABLE to pay attention to the handler. The handler is a "known" entity, one that the horse is tuning out, but not in the manner of "I know you're there but still choosing to ignore you". that's just different from the horse who has gone "autistic" and truly does not "see" the handler. One is an active ignore, in which the horse has a choice to pay attention or not. The other is a passive issue, one in which the horse really doesn't have much control over.

You'll understand better if your mare foals and you raise a horse from babyhood. You'll have a much better time of it if you're in charge from the get-go.
I have raised Rio from 5 months. You're right, it's SO much easier if you aren't dealing with issues you didn't create. My OTTB mare came with issues that I have to decipher. I'd much rather have the first :)

[grayarabpony]

Sorry, JB, I don't buy it. A horse's survival depends on being aware, and they are excellent at reading body language and deciding who is in charge.

If the horse was truly not capable of paying attention, he wouldn't notice someone coming up to the gate either, and he wouldn't be safe to work with. Quite honestly I've never come across a horse like that.

[JB]

Sorry, JB, I don't buy it. A horse's survival depends on being aware, and they are excellent at reading body language and deciding who is in charge.

If the horse was truly not capable of paying attention, he wouldn't notice someone coming up to the gate either, and he wouldn't be safe to work with. Quite honestly I've never come across a horse like that.

Horses have the ability to shut down when they think the situation is too dire, and at that point, they really are not aware of much of anything. At some point in the attack of a cougar, when the horse feels there is no chance for escape, he takes himself internal so he doesn't have to deal with the issues at hand. He's not fighting the fight until the very end, Mother Nature was at least kind enough to give him the ability to shut it all out when necessary.

I will say I don't think this behavior is very common at all. But it does exist.

[Anselcat]

A horse's survival depends on being aware, and they are excellent at reading body language and deciding who is in charge.

Agree, for a normal healthy horse.

But I believe that some horses are damaged/confused to the point that their reactions/awareness/mental state is no longer normal. It's pointless to evaluate such horses by what they 'should' do.

[grayarabpony]

JB I agree, when a horse goes into full panic mode. But it usually takes more than someone walking up to a gate to snap the horse out of it -- it often takes something more traumatic than whatever freaked the horse out in the first place.

BTW, I've had an easier time with the OTTBs I've known than my homebred brat (and an orphan to boot!). lol In comparison the pony has been easy, but she's not easy in every way. She's little but hot.

[goeslikestink]

Just wondering if anyone has experienced this, or has any insight.

Background: My horse has a bolting issue. He has a fear flight response, but it is also his way of getting out of more work. I suspected it in the past, and now that we have learned how to lunge him I believe it is his main evasion. (He has a bad history regarding lunging; apparently someone in his past really scared him, and we were unable to lunge him at all before someone showed us a method involving a siderein-like attachment that prevents him from throwing his head up and bolting off. He's 17H and strong)


He lunges in his bridle, line through bit ring and over the poll. He has the attachment on, also.
I vary the circles, in to smaller ones, out again, many transitions, trying to keep it interesting, but not tempting fate. Later I plan to add some groundpoles.

Yesterday things started off really well. This was the third time I have lunged him. He even quietly picked up a nice canter on his own a few times from a forward trot. After a while, he began to lean heavily on the bit/"sidereins".... I raised my "rein hand" as I would while riding...and then there it was.... he tried to leave dodge. I got him stopped, and we went back to work.


NOW FOR THE CURIOUS PART:
Just about the time I was going to stop, he went into a "zone". He was trucking on, and on, and on.... no amount of tugs, or words, or bringing him in to a smaller circle (until he got scared at the size of it) would get him down from the trot!! He was not wild eyed, this was not a "trot bolt", he was just.... zoning. Around and around.

A good 20 minutes!! He FINALLY came down, and we walked, he was calm, ....

I have never experienced anything like this. Any ideas?

L

Oh, and he has today off.... I am going to lunge him again tomorrow.

dont raise your hand its you that gave the command of go so many people make the mistake of raising hands -
its how quick you are on your feet look here last page has lunging links
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

[JB]

JB I agree, when a horse goes into full panic mode. But it usually takes more than someone walking up to a gate to snap the horse out of it -- it often takes something more traumatic than whatever freaked the horse out in the first place.
Just like people, horses have different thresholds of tolerance - pain, fear, excitement, etc. I don't know whether the OP horse was "autistic" or not - didn't see it, obviously. But if he was, it doesn't mean he was in a place where absolutely nothing was going to get through. It really is entirely possible for the immediate surroundings to be shut out, but something "outside" to make it through because it was not part of whatever caused the horse to shut down in the first place. Really :)

BTW, I've had an easier time with the OTTBs I've known than my homebred brat (and an orphan to boot!). lol In comparison the pony has been easy, but she's not easy in every way. She's little but hot.
I don't doubt it :) I think much comes from how a horse was treated at the track, whether they had "normal" training before track training, whether the horse was treated as a horse or as a "thing", etc, as well as the horse's innate personality.

[Ibex]

Someone stepping up beside the gate brought your horse out of the "zone", but you could not?



It was something that had not been there before - it's all that it takes. It could have been a bird, or a car, or anything that "changed" to get her attention for the moment I needed to catch her and get her focused back on me. Had the person been there the whole time, I doubt it would have had any effect.

In all fairness I've had a couple of trainers use words like "unique", "odd", and "just a bit different" to describe my mare's personality... :lol:

[slc2]

All this stuff about 'the different kinds of not paying attention' and my brain is going to explode. It's a HORSE. It's NOT that complicated. A horse has a brain the size of a walnut, everyone is making this into such an incredible big deal.

"he's gotten a couple good fifty footers past me"

Wait....the horse goes fifty feet under saddle? FIFTY FEET? And by then you can stop him? That's less than a short side of the arena! I think the best thing to do about this thing is to just relax and not worry about it. He's just getting a little 'squirty'.

Make the horse gallop forward and do exercises in which he has to come back and go forward, and make it so he gets to go as part of his work, keep his neck loose and have him go forward. Forward, back, forward, back, if he is SPOOKING and spurting forward fifty feet, just don't pull on both reins and just pretty much ignore it and put him back to work. I wouldn't make a big deal and try to stop him, make him go forward. If he's claustrophobic he won't feel so claustrophobic, if he's fresh he'll be better off moving around, either way it helps.

As far as the 'longeing problem', maybe he just needs some exercise!

[EqTrainer]

Here is what I know of his past:

Pensylvania, bred by a farm that does Perch/tb crosses - I don't know their name. I think all their horses have "Country" as the first part of their name. Gid is "Country Kettle" - no papers, tho. A part sibling is "Country Lovin'". He was jumping 5' (as a 6YO!!!) when I got him. Mini-prix, successful, knees up by his eyes. He was quiet when I rode him.

What I THINK:
He was pushed through jump alleys with something scarey on a whip.
He was broke by some no-nonsense types (he is very sensative, even if he is big)
He was never taught to use himself properly - he is big enough to just lift himself over a fence. His hind end was never really pushing (seen in vids and still pics)
He may have been in a driving accident, as he has a few strange small scars on his side and inside his hock. (good x-rays, tho, just superficial and small)
The place he was when I bought him was VERY busy. I think he was worked hard and regularly, and the amount of busy-ness kept him overwhelmed, so he did not notice much. Overstimulated.

What I really believe:
He wants to be good.
He will be awsome - the gaits are there, I have seen them and ridden them. NEVER felt a trot like that before - floaty and connected.
We just have to get there.

L

Welllll....

I took my then four year old (who did indeed have a confirmed history of questionable-at-best treatment, that left scars on the edges of his mouth) to a clinic with a very well known BNT. He didn't really help me much with this horse except for ONE things that he said, after I told him all the reasons this horse was difficult - "That is the past. Forget about it and ride him as he needs to be ridden, TODAY. NOW."

That was worth $200.00.

My suggestion to you is that you stop worrying and thinking about what may have happened to your horse in the past. Maybe some of it happened; maybe it didn't. You don't know and you never will.

Horses don't think about being good, or bad. You need to throw these ideas out of your head so you can actually deal with your horse as he is. He doesn't want to be good.. he doesn't think like that. What you should hope he learns to do, is continue to try to figure out what you want him to do without having some sort of moment.

Stop thinking he's been abused with a whip. Lots of horses act like freaks about longe whips from day one. Just teach him what it's for, like he were any other horse. That is the kindest thing you can do for him.

Last.. draft crosses aren't exactly noted for their extreme interest in doing dressage and working undersaddle. I'm not even going to put on my flame suit for that one, it's simple fact, they were bred to pull things, not be ridden. Some people have great success working with them and the way they think. If your horse is more drafty than TB like, it might help you to find someone who has had good success dealing with draft type horses. The thing you describe, where he checks out? I've seen draft horses do that and walk thru hot, high tensile fences. No excitement.. just.. going thru the fence. No change of expression. Just.. going thru the fence. Might just be the way he's naturally programmed. Food for thought.

[katarine]

The past is mostly irrelevant. I have a now 6 YO horse I'm positive was abused and misused in a TWH barn/Big Lick type deal...ran into the girl that started him, and realized- I didn't care anymore what she might tell me about his actual past. I'm too busy improving his future to care ;)

You have to get better at reading him and predicting the Future - the zoning out. Redirecting him before he shutters his brain. Phooey that he can't learn to tolerate whips, walls, etc. That's a lie that keeps you from getting hurt...so far. You're scared he'll pancake you so you feed that fear, foster it.

Lessons my dear, with someone not so afraid of him, nor so attached to his past. It's one thing to respect and honor its influence, it's another to allow it to run roughshod over his future. Don't fail to lead him past it and OUT of it.

[lorilu]

Lunging went well today. I watched carefully and he was for the most part quiet and paying attention. He only tried to leave once, and it was quickly stopped, and we went on. No zoning, no obvious tension. No leaning on the reins.


slc2, I should ammend that distance to about 100 feet, then. NO, it's not really scary; more like riding a moving couch. But if we were out in the open? Who knows.

I am NOT tied to his past; just trying to understand where these behaviors originated, so they can be whittled down. Is is just fear, as in he's a scardy cat? Or is is fear due to abuse? I am certain the desensitizing methods would differ for each! "Get OVER it" vs "No reason to fear me".

And Katarine, I am NOT feeding a fear. Afraid he'll pancake me? YOU BET. A horse broke my femur a few years ago and I still think of that - it was a bolt, too. Look up some of my previous posts on the panic response and fear it left me with... or, read about my journey and the horse who helped me in the USDF yearbook.... my story is the second place in the writing competition. I have no desire to be put on the ground again. I want to avoid anything that will set up that situation. I do this for fun, not because I have to. I am not a pro who must ride this horse. I feel he is worth it. As far as leading him out of his past, that is exactly what my trainer and I are trying to do.

L

[twofatponies]

Welllll....

I took my then four year old (who did indeed have a confirmed history of questionable-at-best treatment, that left scars on the edges of his mouth) to a clinic with a very well known BNT. He didn't really help me much with this horse except for ONE things that he said, after I told him all the reasons this horse was difficult - "That is the past. Forget about it and ride him as he needs to be ridden, TODAY. NOW."

That was worth $200.00.

My suggestion to you is that you stop worrying and thinking about what may have happened to your horse in the past. Maybe some of it happened; maybe it didn't. You don't know and you never will.

I have to say I think this can be a really productive thing to do. The day I took my Morgan (ex-Amish) mare out on a lunge line to show the vet her trot for the PPE, I had never lunged her before in my life. I let out the line, lifted the whip, and she started doing 90 mph laps around me. Oops.

I would not say, though, that she was afraid of whips exactly - but rather what she had been taught was "when you see or feel a whip, go as fast as you possibly can." So we had to work on that, to teach her "when you see or feel a whip, pay attention to how exactly I am pointing it, because it can mean walk trot or canter, or it can mean move your butt over, depending on what I am doing with it."

If you think about it as a fear or trauma thing, it tends to make you worry, and be tentative, and I think the horse tends to pick up on that tentativeness. The more matter of fact and confident you can be, the more the horse can relax and trust. Just a thought.

[katarine]

Why would I read your blog/your stories/your award winning history ;). You are invested in it. I'm not, and the horse is not. You need to find ways to move past it.

Work smarter, not harder.

Best wishes.

[BumbleBee]

Haven't read the entire thread but he sounds like a good candidate for clicker work even if only on the lunge.

I really changes the dynamic of the work and can make one who is scared, resistant, angry, shut down.... quite willing and happy in their work.

[lorilu]

Just a bit of an update. We went to a show this weekend. Lunged on Sat night on the grounds just fine, no real problems. (after we got past the galloping polo players....) Worked again Sunday AM, again paying attention and going well. He is learning that there is no reason to run when something makes noise behind him, and he is also learning that running gets him nowhere when it is about evasion of more work. My technique is also improving.

The classes went well, also. Nothing spectacular, but the whole idea was "this is OK, nothing to be worried abuot." There was no bolting, and just a bit of a thought about it. It was amazing how worried he got when we mounted; like "what's up?" and he was worried about entering the arena, too. But by the end of the day all was well. My trainer and I both rode in classes.

I am interested in the clicker stuff, and plan on reading up on it... I read the recent thread about it. He is responding to my voice pretty well, "head down" is the cue , and his name before each lunge command.

Thanks you all for the positive comments. For those snots out there, well, thanks to you all , too. You made me think, and got my ire up once or twice. And of course I am invested in it. We are all invested in our past, it is what makes us what we are. We either battle it or embrace it, or chose parts to embrace and parts to change. I choose to grow out of the past, and that requires acknowledgement of its power.

We will continue on.
L

[katarine]

Glad for you. He may regress, of course, and of course you know that ;) he may 'suck his thumb' and get worried, but will learn more and more to trust in you.

It's ok that I got your back up ;). I felt you were doing your own zoning, your own mental shuttering...so I sought to get you a little off balance. With humor though, not with the intent to upset you, but to unbalance you...yes- make you adjust your footing a little. Switch off the path of but I got hurt, to the path of where are we going.

Best wishes.