saddleseat crazy posture

[Apolloflyin]

I have always ridden english and the other day I found videos of saddleseat riders at national shows....

Why do these people ride with there feet so far out in front of them? Some of these riders had there legs pushed so far in front of them that there feet are in front of the horses shoulders!

maybe I was hit is the head with too many dressage text books in college, but this to me just seems so out of wack!

Please help

[MistyBlue]

I don't ride saddleseat at all and my kknowledge of it is extremely limited.
But I do have a couple friends who ride/show saddleseat or used to and they've told me the type of movement the horses have isn't conducive for them to be sitting the way we do in other disciplines.
I will say I sat in a saddleseat saddle once on a cute little Morgan...the seat places you in a chair seat to start with. And the saddle is REALLY flat...and I like flat tack but this was pancake flat. Have to admit to almost tipping over backward on upward transitions, LOL! It was a very different feel...but the horse I was riding didn't gait. She was retired and I had no idea how to ask for it anyways.
Some day I'd like to try a few different gaited horses for fun...with someone on the ground telling me what to do of course. I'd also like to try that speed racking the flat shod horses do.

[Amwrider]

What videos were you watching? I ride saddle seat and teach saddle seat and while a chair seat is common, it is NOT common to ride with your feet out in front of the horse's shoulders.

When riding saddle seat, the upper leg is what usually makes contact with the saddle and horse and the lower leg usually flares out a bit, but it shouldn't be forward. I holler at my riders if their stirrup gets ahead of the girth area.

[Tiffani B]

Usually those are the trainers on young or very HOT horses you see riding like that. A lot of them will sacrifice posture for optimizing the performance of the horse, and it does work. Saddle Seat horses are raised up from the shoulder so much more than any other discipline.

Because we are trying to lift their front end and drop their hiney to such an extreme, the riders go to extremes to help the horse achieve that. Our riders are not judged at ALL unless it's an equitation class, so how they ride is irrelevant. And form follows function - sometimes an ideal "centered" seat won't get the best performance out of the horse. If you move the center of balance BACK you can sometimes get the horse to do the same.

I know I know, that isn't how it's SUPPOSED to be... but it is.

Here are a few photos of our ideal. These are champion equitation riders. Their horses are much more balanced than the youngsters the trainers ride, so it's much easier to ride centered.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eOhcJP7IsN4AmA4A988VoA?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/liA_g-Osujq0cd0-y1bybw?feat=directlink

I would guess it's akin to a Dressage rider exaggerating something about their seat or aids to help a horse really work over their back. Or a jumper rider doing something with their body to help a horse stretch over a jump if they left the ground too early.

Maybe those aren't good analogies, I don't know. I don't know enough about other seats to really compare... but nope, not all of our show riders and trainers have perfect form.

And, not to make an excuse - but the POWER these horses have is incredible. My horse literally tosses me out of my stirrups with every trot stride. Staying with him is a feat in itself - and I find it easier to balance if my feet are slightly ahead of my hip. When my feet are directly below my hip, and he throws me out of the stirrups, I end up tilting forward onto his neck.

Here's me on him... check out the air between me and my saddle. And I am not even trying to post. :lol:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8acyVU177yRt7hnH79uBHw?feat=directlink

And the trainer on him - and he has a much stronger core than me.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kJczy1wZo577zsWVQru7Eg?feat=directlink

I guess you'd have to ride it to understand it. If anyone is in northern IL and wants to hop on board, PM me and you can come give him a spin. :)

[Apolloflyin]

Wow...that is alot of air time! and I thought my schools warmbloods gave me alot of air time .. lol.

Thank you for showing me some good riding..it makes me feel better.

[Procella]

Tiffani,

Thanks for the very informative post! I have saddleseat envy - I ride and have always ridden dressage but love watching saddleseat - truth be told I would watch a high steppin park/pleasure class over GP dressage any day - those horses look like such a blast to ride!

[Tiffani B]

Oh, another thought...

If the videos are of non-trotting horses (TWH, Rocky Mountain, etc) they seem to always ride like that. The gaited horse has a very sloping croup (check out some confo pics of the performance animals) and the rider will literally slide right off the back of the saddle with the deep stride and PUSH the horse has. You kind of have to push your feet out in front so you can tilt your upper body forward to stay ON the darn horse LOL. Many of them use breast collars to keep the saddle in place.

Since I don't know which videos you saw I can't really say with certainty WHY they are riding that way.

[ReSomething]

I'm a saddleseat noobie, and have ridden Western, low low level dressage and H/J. The point of contact is from knee to thigh, toes forward, calf off (the hours I spent "opening my knees"!, poof gone) Posting is off the knees. The seat is used similar to Western or dressage. It certainly isn't as easy as I thought it would be. Biggest difference is scooting to the back of the saddle, which has an immense seat, rather than sitting in the middle, and staying upright rather than "pitching forward". Using light pressure of the knee and thigh (and upper calf) to maintain the canter is hard work. Also the canter cue takes some getting used to - halt, outside rein, outside leg and kiss. I haven't done any lead changes for any reason, simple or otherwise, but I am poisoning the horses' minds regarding that dead stop thing. The professionals ride like pros in any discipline, not necessarily nice eq, but the horse gets the job done.
It's fun, it's different, Saddlebreds are VERY personable horses, very friendly by and large, and cheerful, even the endlessly ridden school horses.

[Tiffani B]

Here's a video of me on my horse a few weeks ago, mainly to show y'all the canter cue. Horse is only 3 weeks back to work after almost 4 months completely off so he's a bit out of shape and not as lofty as he'll be once he's tuned up. (And since I didn't ride during that time either - let's just say I need some fine tuning, too). :winkgrin: Gotta get my core back LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQc5de_ME8s

Canters at around 55 seconds and 1:42.

[caffeinated]

heh, it was funny reading the OP- I've always been envious of the saddleseat riders' posture :) I guess it depends on what videos you're watching (I know some vids of tennessee walkers shows the riders looking very hunched, but those are hardly equitation classes- to draw conclusions about saddleseat eq from those would be like drawing conclusions about huntseat eq from a few pictures of tommy serio)

I love watching the Good Hands class at Harrisburg- those riders just have such elegant and perfect upper bodies.

[KateKat]

beautiful pics! So jealous, I think Saddlebreds are gorgeous. My dream barn would hold a 5 gaited one!

One thing I'm curious about and I know I would find weird if ever riding saddleseat is how high you have to hold your hands. That would take some getting used to.

[Tiffani B]

Our hands, relative to where the bits are, are not much higher than other disciplines. It wouldn't make sense for us to ride with our hands near the wither, as the bits are ABOVE that level. Most riders' hands, in other seats, are level with the bits or slightly higher... Saddle Seat is no different in that respect.

[ReSomething]

EXCELLENT music on the video. You look nice, me, not so much. The hands are not so different from a dressage hand, and the horses' head carriage is very high so it was intuitive to raise the hand to follow. Still not as easy as I thought it would be.
Keeping that tall and elegant posture - hard. Hard hard hard. Also riding that saddle-one leather flap, not a block in sight, no panels, in shinyslick twill pants - can you say calf bruises? Actually I think that is one reason for the flare, when done right the calf does not rub. I would say that by taking a year off from hunters and learning this I will have added a few more tools to the box. I couldn't really recommend it as far as switching back and forth though, unless you are very athletic and adaptable. It is a very distinct style.

[spaceagevalkyrie]

Usually those are the trainers on young or very HOT horses you see riding like that. A lot of them will sacrifice posture for optimizing the performance of the horse, and it does work. Saddle Seat horses are raised up from the shoulder so much more than any other discipline.

Because we are trying to lift their front end and drop their hiney to such an extreme, the riders go to extremes to help the horse achieve that. Our riders are not judged at ALL unless it's an equitation class, so how they ride is irrelevant. And form follows function - sometimes an ideal "centered" seat won't get the best performance out of the horse. If you move the center of balance BACK you can sometimes get the horse to do the same.

I know I know, that isn't how it's SUPPOSED to be... but it is.

Here are a few photos of our ideal. These are champion equitation riders. Their horses are much more balanced than the youngsters the trainers ride, so it's much easier to ride centered.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eOhcJP7IsN4AmA4A988VoA?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/liA_g-Osujq0cd0-y1bybw?feat=directlink

I would guess it's akin to a Dressage rider exaggerating something about their seat or aids to help a horse really work over their back. Or a jumper rider doing something with their body to help a horse stretch over a jump if they left the ground too early.

Maybe those aren't good analogies, I don't know. I don't know enough about other seats to really compare... but nope, not all of our show riders and trainers have perfect form.

And, not to make an excuse - but the POWER these horses have is incredible. My horse literally tosses me out of my stirrups with every trot stride. Staying with him is a feat in itself - and I find it easier to balance if my feet are slightly ahead of my hip. When my feet are directly below my hip, and he throws me out of the stirrups, I end up tilting forward onto his neck.

Here's me on him... check out the air between me and my saddle. And I am not even trying to post. :lol:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8acyVU177yRt7hnH79uBHw?feat=directlink

And the trainer on him - and he has a much stronger core than me.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kJczy1wZo577zsWVQru7Eg?feat=directlink

I guess you'd have to ride it to understand it. If anyone is in northern IL and wants to hop on board, PM me and you can come give him a spin. :)

"Borrow him indefinitely" sounds better to me! :lol:

[Tiffani B]

LOL! Thanks! He's a treat... I'm working SO HARD on not bouncing my post but it's the biggest trot I've ever ridden. There is no "subtle" or "quiet" seat on him LOL.

I always giggle when I hear people saying how hard it is/must be to ride in a SS saddle, without the knee rolls, the flat seat, etc. You put me in a hunt saddle and I feel confined! Although I rode hunt for years, and my leg position falls more naturally for that seat (my knees like to turn out and my calves like to hug the horse - two big NONOs in Saddle Seat).

I sometimes wonder, how long before we start seeing SS saddles with some small blocks or rolls... and why hasn't that been invented yet? It would sure help me keep my leg back where it belongs LOL.

[AppendixQHLover]

Being a former saddle-seat rider equitation rider my trainer would smacked me with the crop if my feet were in front like that. It has taken a long time to udnerstand the concept that my calves HAVE to touch the horse riding hunter. My morgan was sensitive and had the high action without weighted shoes. OH I would rather watch a park horse class over any hunter flat class.

[cowgirljenn]

You all are killing me. I SO BADLY want a saddleseat horse. I miss riding that big, huge trot...

And I'm drooling at the saddlebreds. :)

I did get to have a bit of fun fostering an ASB for the rescue. He was an awesome horse, set himself up and just WENT. I had sold my saddleseat saddle, so I faked it with a dressage saddle. I'm going to have to get another SS saddle in case we get another SS horse. No one else in the rescue rides SS.

[johnnysauntie]

Tif, your horse is cute as a bug and I live in N. IL, I may very well take you up on your offer of a visit. I'm still in love at an ASB from my old barn, a gorgeous strawberry chestnut - really unusual color - who had the most fantastic flaxen highlights in her mane and tail - I know women who pay 000' on highlights that don't look that good!

Anyway, so I can see that trot is crazy big. Knowing nothing of saddle seat, I'm wondering how you transition up to canter from that trot. Are you posting? Do saddle seat riders ever sit those trots? Just curious, and thanks for taking the time out to explain!

[Guilherme]

I just took a quick look at my copy of Saddleseat Equitation by Helen Crabtree. She does not seem to advocate the "feet on the dashboard" position often seen in the showring. Indeed she states use of the leg is an important aid; you can't do that with feet foreward.

In the laterally gaited saddleseat world you'll see some of the most interesting equitation practices in the equine world. One reason you'll see the "feet on the dashboard, butt on the cantle" with laterally gaited horses is that you get a much more showy gait by ventroflexing the horse (more lift on the front end). You lose the leg completely as an aid when you do this, but for just riding around in circles in an arena you can legitimately ask, "Who cares?".

The "centered riding position" generally taught in English style riding is used because it makes sense in that discipline. A laterally gaited horse can easily and effectively be ridden like this (and probably should be ridden like this most of the time) but won't win diddley in the showring.

The centered position is also less suitable for any activity that requires the rider to "brace" for an impact (roping, jousting, etc.).

There's a very good discussion of these two styles of riding (a la jineta and a la brida) in Dr. Deb Bennett's Conquorers: The Roots of New World Horsemanship. See Chapter 8 "The Two Seats of Spain" and Chapter 9 "The Technology of the Two Seats."

G.

[fabulousfred]

I have to admit that watching it really kind of makes me laugh a little. Some of it looks a bit silly but I'm sure it is a lot of fun for some people.

[Tiffani B]

Tif, your horse is cute as a bug and I live in N. IL, I may very well take you up on your offer of a visit. I'm still in love at an ASB from my old barn, a gorgeous strawberry chestnut - really unusual color - who had the most fantastic flaxen highlights in her mane and tail - I know women who pay 000' on highlights that don't look that good!

Anyway, so I can see that trot is crazy big. Knowing nothing of saddle seat, I'm wondering how you transition up to canter from that trot. Are you posting? Do saddle seat riders ever sit those trots? Just curious, and thanks for taking the time out to explain!

Give me a shout if you want to stop in! We have our first show in two weeks at Ledges (in Roscoe) if you want to see us in action. :)

We do not transition to the canter from the trot. We canter from the walk or halt. Take a peek at the video link I posted above...

And yes, we sit the trot quite often, most usually around corners to help them balance. I show in the Pleasure division, which is restricted to Amateurs, and sitting the trot is discouraged since it's more of a performance way of riding. It's quite frequently seen on the Performance horses to get the most out of them.

[SmartAlex]

I always giggle when I hear people saying how hard it is/must be to ride in a SS saddle, without the knee rolls, the flat seat, etc. You put me in a hunt saddle and I feel confined!

When I gave up trying to gait Grey and switched to a hunt saddle, it was an awful hard adjustment. :cry: I was hitting saddle in every direction! I'm used to it again, but lately I've been eyeing both the Whitman, and my stretchie cuffs.... Me thinks it might be time to get my gaited fix again, although you might have noticed from my blog (http://wpgrey.blogspot.com/2009/03/mudville.html) the other day that it isn't too hard to ride a park trot in my hunt saddle!

Speaking of our Saddlebred blogs.... I want to see pics of Carson with his "TV antennae"

[Trees4U]

As a hunter rider who has been riding saddleseat for approx 2 yrs now (5 gaited), I can tell you its a blast! Its totally different from hunter and it takes alot of concentration (at least for the mature rider) to NOT close that hip angle but its nice to learn a new discipline. I was never a western type nor did dressage interest me and i stumbled into it. Some things die hard though- my first show I came early to lunge my horse hahaha - they still laugh about that one!!:lol::lol:


"Ride like your hair's on fire" ...

[Meredith Clark]

So do you post to the inside diagonal in SS?

[bort84]

So do you post to the inside diagonal in SS?

No, but unless you're in an equitation class it doesn't really matter. I used to show a horse that had one weak diagonal. So we rode that one most of the time to "help" him. We showed at the World Championships (world, haha, more like national, but that's what we call them) with me only posting the left diagonal and got reserve champion. So yeah, it's flexible = ) But proper equitation is the same - rise and fall with the shoulder on the wall. Also, we generally reverse into the wall.

And as far as some of the crazy postures you see, it's generally not on the top trainers. But there are a few that ride like that and get good results, though it's generally not that exaggerated. Also, you tend to see more men riding that way. Perfect equitation says there should be a straight line from shoulder - hip - heel, but because of some of the extremes we ask for in saddle seat, you can move around a bit.

I'm one that pretty much always has great equitation only sliiiightly modified to be a bit more of a trainer seat (less stiff than perfect equitation). But you'll never see me with feet out in front banging on a horse's back. Though that does help lift a horse's front end and drive his hind in some ways, you can also accomplish that without a terribly exaggeragted seat.

And, just like in any discipline, there are some trainers that have a lot of customers and nice horses that don't necessarily use the best training techniques...

[AppendixQHLover]

I had to post to the correct diagonal at shows. Even the big shows you had to get the right on.

I would love to ride saddle seat again but there is zero market where I am. IF I get another morgan it will be a hunter/sport horse.

[Tiffani B]

We prefer our photos with us seated at the trot, which usually requires the rider to be on the wrong diagonal (at least for the photo). And, unless it's equitation, it doesn't matter. It's not taken into account for judging. We ride how we need to, to get the best performance out of the horse, without ruining the overall picture. The best riders are the ones who disappear... or is it that the best horses are the ones where you don't even notice the rider? Hmmmm... :lol:

I usually show my horse on the wrong diagonal counterclockwise, and the correct diagonal clockwise, because to rise to the other leg means I'm launched into space LOL. Especially at a show where he is even more energized. I will switch when I see the photographer coming up (if I'm paying attention) or if it seems to be unbalancing him. At home I vary it up and ride on both diagonals both directions to work him evenly.

[Tiffani B]

As a hunter rider who has been riding saddleseat for approx 2 yrs now (5 gaited), I can tell you its a blast! Its totally different from hunter and it takes alot of concentration (at least for the mature rider) to NOT close that hip angle but its nice to learn a new discipline. I was never a western type nor did dressage interest me and i stumbled into it. Some things die hard though- my first show I came early to lunge my horse hahaha - they still laugh about that one!!:lol::lol:


"Ride like your hair's on fire" ...

LOL! You will rarely see anyone lunging a horse at a Saddlebred show.

[ArtilleryHill]

But you will see them shaking a whip and sometimes rattling a can full of pebbles! Love it. Miss it. Some of the best fun there is. And what a gorgeous boy, Tiffani! Good luck with him.

[Tiffani B]

But you will see them shaking a whip and sometimes rattling a can full of pebbles! Love it. Miss it. Some of the best fun there is. And what a gorgeous boy, Tiffani! Good luck with him.

There is nothing more rock solid than a show-trained Saddlebred! Talk about bomb proof LOL! My horse will bravely march past smoke billowing off of a grill, flags snapping in the wind, tarps draped over a fence, bags stuck on trees, women with umbrellas and strollers, barking dogs, cars with their alarms going off...

Oh... so what was the little spook in the video, you ask?

Well! If you must know... a groom's towel was sitting in a feed bucket inside the stall. :eek::eek::eek: It wasn't there on the last trip around. LOL!

Thank you for the kind words! He's so much fun and has the silliest personality to go with it!

[War Admiral]

Despite the fact that I've ridden hunters most of my life and purposely bought an ASB who is "hunter-built", I, too, would WAY rather spectate a saddle seat show than watch hunters all day! And quite often do. Saddle seat shows have so much variety - and they run on time! :D Imagine - a horse show with NO holds! :yes:

Hand position: if you think about it, it's still more or less a direct line from elbow to bit, b/c the horse's head is so high. The USE of the bits is what's so very different. SS uses very little contact.

Tiffani: GREAT canter depart and awesome canter, too! I hope Q's is as good some day. (It's not looking good, I can tell ya... :rolleyes:)

[TankMonte]

Tiffani has done a lovely job of explaining the discipline. :D

There's nothing better than feeling your horse really raise up in front of you and use what their Mama (or Daddy) gave them. What is it..."You ain't seen nothin' til you've seen the horizon framed by Saddlebred ears!" Beautiful, intelligent animals with a ton of power, a brain that can sometimes be TOO good (ha) and the ability to do...anything.

If you've never given the ASB barn in your area a second glance, I urge you to. Take a few lessons and you'll be rewarded tenfold. (Helps burn those calories too, not much leather to hold you in one spot!)

[Cisco's_Mom]

ooohhhh :cry: now I'm missing the saddlebreds too...

I was a saddlebred person from age 14-26. Didn't start eventing until age about.. ooohhhh, 30 something ;). Reading this post makes me miss it even more. I go to one or two ASB (American Saddlebred) shows each summer and I'm SO depressed when I leave. It's a thrill to ride a good ASB. If you ever get the chance - don't pass it up.

Concerning the "feet on the dashboard" - as many have stated, not exactly proper 'equitation'. I struggled for the first few years I rode SS to NOT have my legs out in front of me (finally got it). It happens, but isn't always the desired position.

And as for "air time" - woo-hoo... hold on baby! They have so much thrust with their hind end that they will toss you miles out of the saddle.

The first few years I evented I was told CONSTANTLY to let go with my thighs and knees and put my lower leg on... and to LOWER MY HANDS! It took quite a while for those "saddleseat legs" to learn to do something else. (and honestly, it's still my biggest problem... but now instead of my legs being too far in front of me, they are too far behind. Using the thighs and knees doesn't work as well going over a fence as it does riding an ASB).

Ahhhh... saddlebreds. What wonderful creatures. They are a different animal. Kind of like TB's, only better. :eek: I'M JUST KIDDING! They're all their own special kind of nuts. (I have a OTTB now, so I really do like TB's, but ASB's were my first love and will probably always be). :yes:

[Equibrit]

I guess the difficult in sitting on those horses and their high head carriage is a result of the hollow back?

[Tiffani B]

Oh yes, most certainly. There can be no other POSSIBLE explanation. :rolleyes:

I have provided TONS of photos on other threads of SS horses ridden with level backs. The well trained ones do not have dropped backs - they are level, with a dropped butt and raised wither. No, we do not strive for the raised back of Dressage, nor should we. It's a different discipline with different goals.

[Donella]

Well there isn't another explanation. I showed arabs for years, rode a # of saddleseat horses and bought an ex EP arab mare from Mike Whelihan (who was previously trained by Jim Stachowski) . They are trained from the time they start to work in that frame, developing the back is not part of the program. It IS all about the up frame, climbing the wall in the front look. When I tried to switch the mare over to dressage, it was hard because she had gone so long with a hollow back she had a very hard time with the concept of moving forward OVER her back. I cannot imagine trying to sit a real saddleseat horse's trot.

And, at the end of the day, the goal of saddleseat is not the same as that of dressage, so of course the training methods differ.

[Tiffani B]

So a horse with a lofty trot is that way because their back is hollow? That is one big generalization...

Most of the Saddlebred trainers I've worked for/with do a LOT of gymnastic work and crosstraining with their show horses, as do I. Contrary to popular belief, they are not worked every day with their heads raised up and their backs hollowed out.

Arabs are MUCH different conformationally than Saddlebreds. Most Arabs are not built to do Saddle Seat and the only way they can achieve the extreme carriage required to win is to hollow their back.

A (show) Saddlebred, on the other hand, is naturally made with the extremely upright neck. They don't NEED to hollow their back to carry themselves that way. The horses who are lacking the ideal build, yet are still steered towards Saddle Seat when they probably shouldn't be, are the ones you see with the hollowed backs. That's their answer to the training and it's unfortunate they weren't allowed to have another career.

Fortunately there is a growing movement in the breed to embrace other disciplines and not regard those horses as inferior, so hopefully we'll start to see more and more of them in the RIGHT jobs.

[Renae]

bort84 I would say our World's Championship Horse Show is as much a World's Championship as some other American institutions that make a similiar claim: the World Series for baseball as an example :) I know horses have come from Canada, South Africa, Great Britain and Sweden for the World's Championship Horse Show and riders and trainers have come from those countries and then some, such as Mexico. In fact Saddle Horse Shows and Baseball have another thing in common, they were both developed in America at about the same time, just before the Civil War.

Anyways for those curious about saddle seat, try a few lessons! The ASHA has a stable search tool to help you find a local stable http://www.saddlebred.com/breed/stables.php (just put in your zip code and dont choose anything under the service selector, that part does not seem to be working). I find that saddle seat riding relies mostly on developing great balance and a great sense of how to ride with your horse. Your trainer will probably tell you when you are riding a good one, if you get the chance, "Just stay out of his way." In fact in the article in Modern Arabian Horse magazine interviewing Joel Kiesner about his spectacular Nation Champion Half-Arabian English Pleasure ride aboard Adams Fire he remarks that he was just trying to stay out of the horse's way. And here is the kind of ride you can get just by trying to stay out of the way http://www.starlinearabians.com/news.asp the video under "Thank you, USEF and Exhibitors" and if you scroll down to the bottom the Adams Fire Half-Arabian English Pleasure Work Off video are great! Saddle seat riding is all about letting the horse show the maximum of what he is capable of doing, having the chance to ride that trot that you normally only get to witness from the ground when the horse trots free full of joie de vivre!

[Beverley]

Y'all have me missing the Pin Oak Charity show of my youth, and the old National HS at Madison Square Garden, where the classes rotated among 3 gaited, 5 gaited, fine harness, hunters, jumpers...

I once rode a 3-gaited horse that had won the world championship the year before. I think I was 10 years old. Thought this was about to be a very cool moment, after watching the trainer put him through his paces. They threw me aboard, and Mr. World Champ proceeded to amble around the arena like a plow horse. I did trot him- he gave me a bit of a western pleasure trot. Totally in babysitting mode, not gonna strut for you little girl but I'll keep you aboard!

About 10 years ago I helped the local all breed association as a ribbon presenter one day. The ONLY horses that stood still without any fussing for the award pics were the saddlebreds!

[Tiffani B]

I wish there were more all-breed all-discipline shows around. I think when people get to show with the other seats, you learn an appreciation for it and aren't so quick to judge.

[ReSomething]

But you will see them shaking a whip and sometimes rattling a can full of pebbles! . . . . .
That, slamming doors, growling, yipping and hepping. AND cantering up and down the barn aisle. Over the hose, scattering ALL the dogs, Yeehaw! Trainer says it's even more interesting when there are two people riding:eek:. Needless to say nobody crossties in the barn aisle.

Definitely for the fun loving among us, LOL.

[Renae]

Yes, many saddle seat trainers, especially in the south, do not have indoor areas, just extra wide barn aisles with footing in them and sometimes a round pen sized turn around at the ends.

[spaceagevalkyrie]

Give me a shout if you want to stop in! We have our first show in two weeks at Ledges (in Roscoe) if you want to see us in action. :)

We do not transition to the canter from the trot. We canter from the walk or halt. Take a peek at the video link I posted above...

And yes, we sit the trot quite often, most usually around corners to help them balance. I show in the Pleasure division, which is restricted to Amateurs, and sitting the trot is discouraged since it's more of a performance way of riding. It's quite frequently seen on the Performance horses to get the most out of them.

Tiffani, how many SS barns are there in N. IL? I've been dying to try it, but I cannot for the life of me sniff out any SS barns here!

[Trees4U]

Scattering the dogs--- how about the dogs running with you barking like crazy:eek: or tambourines shaking at you coming down the long side, baby powder being tossed so you ride into a cloud (smells good though), sparklers being twirled- YAHOO !!. It took a while for me to stop thinking " oh oh -BIG SPOOK coming- get ready:eek::eek:!! Stuff we would never put up with in the hunter ring..

I do love the rack though.......

And I do LOVE my hunter:yes::yes:

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=War Admiral;3943518]Despite the fact that I've ridden hunters most of my life and purposely bought an ASB who is "hunter-built", I, too, would WAY rather spectate a saddle seat show than watch hunters all day! And quite often do. Saddle seat shows have so much variety - and they run on time! :D Imagine - a horse show with NO holds! :yes:

QUOTE]

LOL. There is the "I lost a shoe in the middle of the class and have to wait for the farrier to tack it back on!" saddlebred hold that I have sat through many a time! Though it is certainly nothing compared to hunters.

[Tiffani B]

Tiffani, how many SS barns are there in N. IL? I've been dying to try it, but I cannot for the life of me sniff out any SS barns here!

There are a LOT in N IL! If you go to www.asha.net you can click on the "Saddlebred Stables/Farms" in the search box. Put in your zip code and it'll bring up the barns closest to you. I'm at Moctezuma Stables in Woodstock, and my former trainer Stone Creek Stables (now in Bristol, WI) is also wonderful.

[Tiffani B]

Scattering the dogs--- how about the dogs running with you barking like crazy:eek: or tambourines shaking at you coming down the long side, baby powder being tossed so you ride into a cloud (smells good though), sparklers being twirled- YAHOO !!. It took a while for me to stop thinking " oh oh -BIG SPOOK coming- get ready:eek::eek:!! Stuff we would never put up with in the hunter ring..

Yup, there never IS a big spook, just a big ride!

Tuesday I had the vet out to check Carson's stifles. She was doing flexion tests and her assistant would trot him away. Well, the three Jack Russells were assisting. They would run behind him and then scatter when they'd reverse to trot back... except for the little puppy. The vet assistant had to scoop him up in mid stride so he didn't get run over. It was funny! She's got Carson's lead rope in one hand and this little wiggly puppy trying to lick her face in the other...

Saddlebred barns are usually FULL of commotion and activity the likes of which you will not find at any other barn. It's not for everyone... but I LOVE it!

[AppendixQHLover]

Saddlebred showing must be completely different than riding saddleseat in the morgan world.

I haven't had the pleasure of riding a saddlebred, just morgans and arabs. We have a fresian at the barn that his daddy was a saddleseat horse. They are training him dressage but I would LOVE to see him with a cutback saddle. :D

[Tiffani B]

I don't know... I showed Morgans for several years and it was pretty much exactly the same at the barn. It probably depends on the barn. :)

[bort84]

Haha, yeah, there are some crazy methods to "ear up" a horse in a saddle seat barn (the first time I said "ear up" to an eventing trainer, she said, "what the hell is that? No wonder you saddlebred people are all crazy."

My grandma is a saddlebred trainer, and I've worked for a couple of others. People see you take out the fire extinguisher for the first time and say "Is something on fire?!" Haha. Nope, but that "foof" of white stuff reeeally can get one excited! Most saddlebreds are just geared to like that stuff. People that have never ridden saddle seat or a saddlebred just don't believe it! They think you're being cruel or just crazy. But saddlebreds don't usually spook, they "bloom" hahaaha. Really, I've known so many saddlebreds that absolutely love their job and are constantly looking for something to really "look" at. It's like how thoroughbreds are bred to run. ASBs are bred to bloom/show.

Also, I started out in arabs because that's mostly what my grandma had in the barn at the time. I think there's a little less of the crazy antics in an all arab barn because they often have a bit more spook than bloom to them. This is not to get arab people up in arms, I like the breed. A lot of them are being bred more towards a saddle seat type so they can perform more easily. I just think those biiiig eyes, tiny ears, and intelligent heads are sometimes more prone to saying, nope, I'm not going there, than a saddlebred. So there might be a little less "earing up." Just a thought. You definitely have to work them differently because they are stupid smart. Saddlebreds are smart, but generally not as clever I'd say = ) The super smart ones are always the hardest.

I actually bought a very talented little appy as a horse to "flip" while I was at a saddlebred barn. Well, I liked him so much, I decided to bring him with me when I left school and started focusing more on dressage and jumping.

While I loooove the intricacies of dressage and the thrill of jumping, I will never never get completely away from my saddlebreds and saddle seat. It's just too damn much fun. My biggest problem with the discipline is that a lot of trainers (not all!) have started just coasting on the horses' natural abilities and don't really "work" them anymore. I missed really working on the finer points like I had always done with my grandma, so dressage is helping to fill that void.

Anyway, long term goal: have a few saddlebreds of a dressage type and show some of the snootier DQs what they can do besides saddle seat + have a barn full of saddle seat saddlebreds too = ) Just give me a few years and $$$...

Haha. Luckily, there's a great saddlebred barn right across the street from where I keep/train my appy. So I'm trying to make time for both worlds. I think there's so much to be learned from different disciplines. If there were a reining barn next door too, shoot, I'd be in heaven.

Anyway, looong post. I just get so excited when I hear support for my saddlebreds = ) Wooo!

[Just My Style]

I wish there were more all-breed all-discipline shows around. I think when people get to show with the other seats, you learn an appreciation for it and aren't so quick to judge.

I agree. I think more "horse people" need to be more open minded to different breeds and disciplines.

I have tried just about every discipline out there, just to have the experience. I totally enjoyed riding saddle seat. Of course, my friend who was a teacher was laughing at my initial desire to want to get in a h/j seat. Kind of doesn't work on a saddlebred. ;) They are really lovely horses. Very sweet. Very kind. Of course, they get a bad rap on occasion because of some questionable training practices by a spattering of trainers. Can't the same be said about any discipline? I don't think I could go to a H/J show anywhere and not find a complete idiot who calls itself a trainer. And please don't tell me that all the dressage instructors are squeeky clean. I would die laughing. :lol:

[Equibrit]

When a horse's neck is that high there is only one way for their back to be and that is hollow.
http://www.equinehealth.co.nz/images/skeleton.jpg

[Beverley]

When a horse's neck is that high there is only one way for their back to be and that is hollow.

Um, Equibrit, I must disagree with you. Conformation. I've known some jumpers (and not saddlebreds) with similar conformation - really funky looking over fences, but no, not hollow-backed.

[bort84]

When a horse's neck is that high there is only one way for their back to be and that is hollow.
http://www.equinehealth.co.nz/images/skeleton.jpg

Okay, so I'll say that a saddle seat horse's back is not going to be used the same way as a dressage horse's back. But, to say it's completely hollow is probably not fair. There are varying degrees of hollowness. I see a lot of saddle seat horses (more arabs due to conformation) ridden in such a way that the back hollows out and the hind end is left out behind just sort of trailing everything else.

To get the most out of your horse however, you really want the hind end to be striding up underneath, and you want them to use their back. I think a lot of trainers skip this step because it takes longer. To say all horses that carry their head high have a hollow back is a little unfair.

Because of the way saddlebreds are built, I think they can still do a saddle seat frame without being completely hollow. Obviously they aren't going to work up over their back the same way as a dressage horse because the end goal isn't the same. BUT, the top grand prix horses often have a very vertical neck/head set. Obviously their necks aren't as long because they aren't bred that way (so they don't look as extreme), but some of them are ridden with their necks set almost at an 80 degree angle (pretty vertical if you ask me) from the ground in highly collected work. That doesn't necessarily mean they're traveling with a hollow back though.

Anyway, so let's say I'm in partial agreement with equibrit that saddle seat horses, as a rule, are likely to carry their backs differently and perhaps more "hollow" to a degree. But, the best saddlebreds/saddle seat horses must use their back and get their hind end to work, so I don't think they are all completly "hollow" - but a lot of them certainly are due to training. I think it's more of a question of degrees. Obviously most saddle seat horses will be more hollow than a top dressage horse. That doesn't necessarily mean they're completely hollow, if that makes sense. Is that an okay compromise?

[Proffie]

I rode Saddlebreds my entire junior career, and then switched to hunters. In my first jumping lesson, there was a trainer in the middle of the arena who was teaching a different lesson. When I was finished, he came up to me and said "Did you used to ride Saddleseat?"

I said yes, why?

He said, "Because you are the most balanced rider I've seen at this barn, but your hip angle is ridiculous."

I still revert back to the wide open hip angle, especially if I'm riding a hot horse.

[quietann]

But you will see them shaking a whip and sometimes rattling a can full of pebbles! Love it. Miss it. Some of the best fun there is. And what a gorgeous boy, Tiffani! Good luck with him.

I enjoy watching (good) Saddleseat riders, too. The only thing that makes me sad is that since I ride dressage, on a really sensitive Morgan, I don't think I can ever take her to a Morgan show to do dressage, as all the uproar used to get the saddleseat horses up up up would break her brain, and the results of that are *not* pretty.

[Tiffani B]

There is a thread on here right now about how to make a horse brave. I was SO tempted to suggest whooshing a fire extinguisher at it a few times LOL!

I think horses love challenges. A jumper loves fences. A barrel racer loves to do barrels. A cow horse will chase down those steers. And a SS horse gets to overcome the challenge of facing down something scary and BEATING IT TO A PULP. They LOVE it. They just puff up right underneath you and as their confidence grows, so does their ego and you have a HORSE.

Yeah boy!

[AppendixQHLover]

The morgan barn I rode at was very low-key. They did more halter and breeding. They did build an indoor eventually but it wasn't really that big. Enough to get the job done.

[cb06]

This is a fun thread!
Regarding the dropped back, I think bort84 gave a good answer. Many saddlebreds/other saddleseat horses do go with a dropped back, but not the good ones. Although they don't use their back like a dressage horse, I think what many people forget is that the nicer saddlebreds really 'sit' on their hindquarters when trotting, so yes, they can come over their backs to some extent.

I know that on a nice saddlebred, when you ask for a trot, you better be ready because the 'bottom falls out' when they launch into that trot. It may be difficult to see, many people focus on the front end action more, but if you ride it, it is very definitely easy to feel. There is a distinct difference in a saddleseat horse that is mostly a 'leg mover' (ie dropped back) versus one that really sits on his haunches...and it is VERY fun to ride!
...and yes, it does remind me of the upper level dressage horses that have only a slightly less extreme head set.

[MajMeadowMorgans]

We are going to an open show in May and I am going to take my former Park Saddle horse into some jumper classes, then into a couple of SS classes.(We can beat the rest of the local SS horses barefoot, lol. Just let him get fired up a bit) And that folks, is why I will always have a Morgan! :D

[Tiffani B]

I always picture a correct Saddlebred back as FLAT, but at an angle. The croup should be below the withers.

It is NOT flexed, either up (as in Dressage) or down (as in dropped).

This is what I'm talking about.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/vlayne/Lily/2457576890033872083JekrZW_ph.jpg

This is NOT a dropped back.

Now, do we see dropped backs? Of course. But that is not the ideal, no matter the reason behind them. Sometimes it's lordosis. Sometimes it's poor training. Sometimes it's a horse trying to compensate for being asked to do something it cannot easily do. Of course, with judging being subjective, a horse with a dropped back who is superior in other areas to a horse with a flat back, can beat that horse.

Most of the top horses exhibit a FLAT back. Some, a dropped back. Never, a raised back.

[amastrike]

I always thought that the purpose of gaited horses was for them to be very comfortable to ride for long periods of time.. it's kind of a shock that they're actually extremely hard to ride. Have there always been some breeds of gaited horses that are hard? Were comfortable breeds altered to make their movement more dramatic (and thus uncomfortable)? I'm confused :confused:.

[cb06]

Tiffany B - I saw that thread on making a horse brave also and thought the EXACT same thing :lol:
...somehow, I don't think the 'saddlebred way' would go over well to the 'uninitiated', but it does work.
On a trail ride last week we passed a plastic bag in a tree, my horse (went through the saddleseat training early in life), didn't bat an eye. The horse with us had a small coronary over the flapping plastic...

btw- Carson looks like BIG fun to ride! He is a cutie. :yes:

[Tiffani B]

amastrike, you're confused because you're mixing Saddle Seat with "gaited breeds." Saddlebreds, Morgans, Arabs - they are not gaited breeds, although some of them can do lateral gaits. Obviously Saddlebreds are best known for this. However, MOST of ASBs cannot gait without training - they are not born doing it. You might see a horse in the pasture exhibit a lateral gait once in awhile but as a rule, Saddlebreds should not be lumped into the "gaited horse" category.

There is much debate in the ASB world on this...

But many people are of the opinion that a breed that is considered "gaited" does not trot. Pasos, Rocky Mtn horses, TWH - these are gaited breeds. Yes, they are ridden in cutbacks, but they aren't really Saddle Seat horses. Saddle Seat requires a trot. So don't meld the two (gaited and Saddle Seat) since they aren't the same.

Anyways, a lateral gait is VERY comfortable, no matter which breed or gait it is. Running walk, foxtrot, slow gait, rack... they are all comfortable.

The comfort of the trot depends on the horse, just like in all other trotting breeds. There are some Saddlebreds with a trot like my boy's, with so much thrust that you'd never in a million years consider him comfortable. And there are others, that display more motion and brilliance both front and back, that you could sit their trot and have a tea party on your finest china and not spill a drop. Every horse is different.

But - since we want that POWER, a horse like mine (who is smooth as glass if I let him just plod along at a nice jog trot LOL), when they kick it up a notch, become very lofty.

[Cisco's_Mom]

I know that on a nice saddlebred, when you ask for a trot, you better be ready because the 'bottom falls out' when they launch into that trot.

EXACTLY! It's an awesome feeling... they squat down and push behind, and raise up light and lofty in front....an awesome feeling.

...and when "grounding" them you DO expect a big spook to come, but instead, they just raise up and and squat down more and go smokin' down the isle. :yes:

[amastrike]

Ah, I think I saw someone earlier in the thread mention gaited horses, and figured that's what it was about.

Heh, my TB has a trot that you'd never consider comfortable, either... it's like sitting on a pogo stick. I was bemoaning my inability to sit it one day, and said to my instructor "why is it that I can sit any horse's trot except MY horse's trot?" Her response was "have you ever felt your horse's trot?" :lol:

If I were in the market for a saddle seat horse, I'd definitely go with one of the smooth ones, lol.

[Tiffani B]

Watching my boy trot you'd never think he was that lofty. Mayo was working a horse yesterday that had so much hind end motion I would have bet my last dollar he was bouncy. Mayo said he's smooth as glass... so ya never know LOL!

[bort84]

I always thought that the purpose of gaited horses was for them to be very comfortable to ride for long periods of time.. it's kind of a shock that they're actually extremely hard to ride. Have there always been some breeds of gaited horses that are hard? Were comfortable breeds altered to make their movement more dramatic (and thus uncomfortable)? I'm confused :confused:.

Tiffani B's response was good, so I'm just going to expand a bit. Originally, the gaited ability in some saddlebreds was bred in to create a smoother gait than the trot for a horse that was used for everything before people had cars. So let's compare it to a TWH who was originally bred to do what the plantation walkers do - a very comfy efficient gait. Well, the TWH's then developed the big lick horses who do a very inefficient gait that is veeery showy.

From the things I've read about saddlebred history, I'd imagine it's sort of the same thing. I'd guess (and I think I've read this somewhere) the original "gaited" saddlebreds we bred for an owner that used him for an everyday horse and wanted an additional gait to the w/t/c that was smooth and efficient. Saddlebreds were more of an all around horse back in the day and were also used as cavalry horses. Now most are bred for saddle seat showing, so they need more action. The rack/slow gait as we see it today is a gait that requires a LOT of effort, just like the big lick on a TWH. The original rack (I'd imagine) was more of a ground covering, less fancy gait like a plantation walker.

So yes, now 5-gaited horses are pretty hard to ride because they are sort of the equivalent of a top grand prix horse in the ASB show world. They are our top competitors. However, there are now more classes for 5-gaited horses with less action and calmer minds/action, and they are much easier to ride.

Also, only some have the bloodlines and ability to really rack, unlike actual "gaited" breeds. I used to have a horse that we bought as a 2 yr old that would literally rack out in pasture. It was a very smooth ground covering gait. To turn him into a top 5-gaited horse, however, he needed a lot of work to learn to turn that gait into a more energetic "show" gait.

If that makes any sense... Haha. Some of the history is just me drawing on all the horsey stuff I read as a young ASB lover, so somebody can correct me if I'm wrong.

Sheesh I write long posts. Slow Friday = )

[3GreyMares]

I just happened upon this thread, I'm usually over in the Dressage or Breeding forum.

Another ex-SS person here. I too, would still raise a leg-over if given the opportunity. I once rode a Park mare that launched me with her trot every single time!! She was a challenge to ride. She, btw, had severe lordiosis, but man did she move!!!!!!

Tiffani, do you know the Matton's from Knollwood Farm? Carol and I grew up riding together. Met in 5th grade and went to school and rode together till I moved to Texas at age 17. She went on to do SS/ASB's full time and I went Hunter until my mid-20's. Did the ASB/Arab stuff here in Texas for ~ 10yrs, and now have been seriously into Dressage since "giving up the shaky-tails"!(long story) Still have an ASB though. She's my "baby". (Captive Spirit x Santana's Summer Storm) She's bred to a Trakehner (Stiletto) for my next dressage horse.

It's taken me a long time to learn not to "pinch" with my knee. I still revert to that when the trot gets big, instead of "letting go" and following with my seat. ;)

3GM

[bort84]

Also, just wanted to add another quick "hollow" back "soft" back comment. I've actually ridden quite a few ASBs that had such suspension in their trot, that a slower "bounce walk" as we call it was actually quite easy to ride. For those not familiar with saddlebred shows, a "bounce walk" is allowed in some of the upper level classes (3-gaited, 5-gaited, park) because many of those horses are so hot, they don't really flat walk well (though I still contend too many trainers skip training this veeery important gait). So the bounce walk is allowed as an option - ideally, it should be like a very very animated collected and slow trot. A properly done one is not just a slow trot, but almost more like a passage in dressage.

Anyway, these horses that could perform a beautiful passage-like bounce walk had very soft backs. If their backs were completely "hollow" you certainly would not get that kind of softness in their backs and suspension in their gait. Just another comment to illustrate that a hollow back is not actually what a great saddle seat horse should have...

[Tiffani B]

Oh yes I know the Mattons. I worked for Scott at Star Hill for awhile, and see him and Carol at every show I go to. Their operation is HUGE now - they have the largest SS lesson program in the state, probably the country LOL.

[3GreyMares]

<"Their operation is HUGE now - they have the largest SS lesson program in the state, probably the country LOL." >

Yeabut Carol is still Carol!! She can still out-belch me!! LOL!! (I always make it a point to stop in when I go "home" to visit.)

[Equibrit]

It's simply a matter of mechanics. In order to get the neck that high something further back has to bend - and that is a hollow back. If the spine did not bend/hollow then the hind would not be able to lower. You can work as much muscle as you like onto the back but the spine is still compromised.

[bort84]

I just happened upon this thread, I'm usually over in the Dressage or Breeding forum.

Another ex-SS person here. I too, would still raise a leg-over if given the opportunity. I once rode a Park mare that launched me with her trot every single time!! She was a challenge to ride. She, btw, had severe lordiosis, but man did she move!!!!!!

Tiffani, do you know the Matton's from Knollwood Farm? Carol and I grew up riding together. Met in 5th grade and went to school and rode together till I moved to Texas at age 17. She went on to do SS/ASB's full time and I went Hunter until my mid-20's. Did the ASB/Arab stuff here in Texas for ~ 10yrs, and now have been seriously into Dressage since "giving up the shaky-tails"!(long story) Still have an ASB though. She's my "baby". (Captive Spirit x Santana's Summer Storm) She's bred to a Trakehner (Stiletto) for my next dressage horse.

It's taken me a long time to learn not to "pinch" with my knee. I still revert to that when the trot gets big, instead of "letting go" and following with my seat. ;)

3GM

I actually randomly rode in a clinic with them once in New Orleans on a customer's horse, and I used to work at a place about a half hour from their farm in Wisconsin. I also grew up showing on the same circuit so saw them quite a bit (I had much cheaper smaller time horses though, haha) We've bought a couple of horses from them in the past. Great people = ) I want to say my grandmother knew Scott's dad a bit too...

How fun that you're breeding a saddlebred to a WB! I'm looking forward to getting a couple of dressage type saddlbred propects. I think people overlook their natural talent for dressage because they've only ever seen the very extreme saddleseat types. I'd love to see pics once you have that lovely little half ASB/trakehner baby.

And I'm actually in Texas now too doing the dressage/jumping thing with a little saddle seat on the side when I get a chance.

[Tiffani B]

Equibrit, you are basing that theory on the neck coming out of the shoulder the same way it does for warmbloods or whatever other breed you are familiar with. It does NOT. It is already UP there.

Did you look at the photo I posted above on this page?

On a horse with a less upright neck? Yes, the back has to bend. However, ASBs with a less upright neck are not usually made into SS horses!

There are tons of weanling photos on www.asha.net in the gallery where you can see they are naturally upright.

[bort84]

It's simply a matter of mechanics. In order to get the neck that high something further back has to bend - and that is a hollow back. If the spine did not bend/hollow then the hind would not be able to lower. You can work as much muscle as you like onto the back but the spine is still compromised.

Why does hollowing the back help to lower the hind end? Also, I think you have to take into account a little bit the fact that the neck looks more extreme when it's set on that high and is that long. Since most saddlebred's necks come out of their wither very high, I'd guess they have to hollow their back less than you might think to get that head set.

Do you think grand prix horses with very vertical headsets are always hollow? And I don't think a back has to be as "round" as a highly trained dressage horse's to be considered not hollow. Like I said before, I think this is more a matter of degrees. Sure, SS horses are going to be less round than good dressage horses, but I don't think that makes them all "hollow." There is certainly a difference between a very hollowed out SS horse and one that is less so. It's not just "hollow" vs. "round." There are many shades of grey in between.

Also, since everyone makes hollow sound like such a dirty word, let's maybe say less round? Since SS people are after different goals than dressage, perhaps we need a better word that sounds less like an implication that all SS horses are being improperly ridden.

[Tiffani B]

Why does hollowing the back help to lower the hind end? Also, I think you have to take into account a little bit the fact that the neck looks more extreme when it's set on that high and is that long. Since most saddlebred's necks come out of their wither very high, I'd guess they have to hollow their back less than you might think to get that head set.

Do you think grand prix horses with very vertical headsets are always hollow? And I don't think a back has to be as "round" as a highly trained dressage horse's to be considered not hollow. Like I said before, I think this is more a matter of degrees. Sure, SS horses are going to be less round than good dressage horses, but I don't think that makes them all "hollow." There is certainly a difference between a very hollowed out SS horse and one that is less so. It's not just "hollow" vs. "round." There are many shades of grey in between.

Also, since everyone makes hollow sound like such a dirty word, let's maybe say less round? Since SS people are after different goals than dressage, perhaps we need a better word that sounds less like an implication that all SS horses are being improperly ridden.

Well said! Not rounded to a Dressage extreme does not equal hollow.

[3GreyMares]

Small world, hey!! What barn was that bort?

I had my first SS "lesson" with Carol in my 20's, while I was on vacation back home. I rode a retired EP gelding named "Walter". Thats when I became hooked. Found a local SS trainer here in Texas (Larry Gardinere/Lone Star Training Center) and started riding ASB's and Arabs out there. When he relocated out of state, thats when I switched over to Dressage. The only other local trainer in these parts.......well lets just say I don't care for him or his methods. ;)

Good points Tiffani and bort.

It's all relevant. Good trainers in any discipline take it slow, allowing the horse to develop the back muscles to support the rider. I've seen "forced frames" in every discipline" and the overall picture shows it! Dropped/hollow back, stilted movement, hocks trailing instead of pushing.

I've also seen video of some UL Dressage WB horses that look and move like good ASB's.

Conformation plays a huge part too.

[bort84]

I've also seen video of some UL Dressage WB horses that look and move like good ASB's.

Conformation plays a huge part too.

That's what I've noticed too! I'm going to go buy a dressage type ASB someday soon (hopefully) and let everyone think he's a fancy warmblood until we beat them. Haha, I actually like fancy warmbloods too, so I don't want to bash them, I just think ASBs have such talent for dressage, and some of the SS "throw aways" would be SUCH great dressage horses and sell for a tenth of the price of a similarly talented WB. And they think so well! They can be hot and sensitive without being tough or silly = ) And I love a saddlebred head/face. So pretty and smart and sweet.

[aurorag16]

Speaking of saddlebred dressage horses, check this one out:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/90654663@N00/2303924953/

Don't know this person or horse, I just thought he was beautiful!

[jazzn]

Speaking of saddlebred dressage horses, check this one out:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/90654663@N00/2303924953/

Don't know this person or horse, I just thought he was beautiful!

That's Gold Champagne's Law Marshall (Marshall, since his name is a mouthful) - not my boy, he belongs to a friend. He's actually featured in Dressage Today this month (March 09) in the "Homework From Hilda" feature!

I actually never thought I'd de-lurk on this forum, but it's hard to resist when someone mentions a horse you know! Thanks for the compliment, I'll pass it on to his owner. :)

[sunridge1]

Speaking of saddlebred dressage horses, check this one out:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/90654663@N00/2303924953/

Don't know this person or horse, I just thought he was beautiful!


He is gorgeous.

I showed his daddy for his breeder in an Ohio weanling futurity in 1997. And he won his class. Small world these days.

[bludejavu]

Also, just wanted to add another quick "hollow" back "soft" back comment. I've actually ridden quite a few ASBs that had such suspension in their trot, that a slower "bounce walk" as we call it was actually quite easy to ride. For those not familiar with saddlebred shows, a "bounce walk" is allowed in some of the upper level classes (3-gaited, 5-gaited, park) because many of those horses are so hot, they don't really flat walk well (though I still contend too many trainers skip training this veeery important gait). So the bounce walk is allowed as an option - ideally, it should be like a very very animated collected and slow trot. A properly done one is not just a slow trot, but almost more like a passage in dressage.

Anyway, these horses that could perform a beautiful passage-like bounce walk had very soft backs. If their backs were completely "hollow" you certainly would not get that kind of softness in their backs and suspension in their gait. Just another comment to illustrate that a hollow back is not actually what a great saddle seat horse should have...

I'm very late into this great thread but wanted to comment on what you refer to as the "bounce walk". I've been in Saddlebreds since age 11 and have never heard that expression. It is normally referred to as a park walk or a primp walk. The primary reason that the flat walk is not called for on the higher performance type horse is to allow the horse to keep a "full head of steam". A flat walk requires much more relaxation which is what is required for the country pleasure divisions, but a true performance horse needs to keep the adrenaline rush going to maintain it's excitement and gait elevation. So when the trot is called for, they are absolutely ready to turn "it" on and git-up and go. The only exception is in the parade horse division when a park/primp walk is called for (never a flat walk) as well as being able to halt quietly on the rail when asked, just like what would be needed in a parade. It's not a matter of training being skipped so much as it is that these horses are trained to NOT flat walk. I have five very level and normal backed horses in my barn who can and will do a perfect primp walk when asked - it really isn't about backs.

[arena run]

I don't ride saddleseat at all and my kknowledge of it is extremely limited.
But I do have a couple friends who ride/show saddleseat or used to and they've told me the type of movement the horses have isn't conducive for them to be sitting the way we do in other disciplines.
I will say I sat in a saddleseat saddle once on a cute little Morgan...the seat places you in a chair seat to start with. And the saddle is REALLY flat...and I like flat tack but this was pancake flat. Have to admit to almost tipping over backward on upward transitions, LOL! It was a very different feel...but the horse I was riding didn't gait. She was retired and I had no idea how to ask for it anyways.
Some day I'd like to try a few different gaited horses for fun...with someone on the ground telling me what to do of course. I'd also like to try that speed racking the flat shod horses do.

W/my 3yo walking mare you don't have to know how to ask. You simply cluck to her for more speed, and she just racks like a fool. ;D sylvia

[Long Spot]

Oh WOW! That picture of Marshall is just stunning. What a beautiful animal!

[sdlbredfan]

Tiffani, you are so right! ("I wish there were more all-breed all-discipline shows around. I think when people get to show with the other seats, you learn an appreciation for it and aren't so quick to judge.")
I think it is very generous of you to invite folks in your area to ride your lovely horse, and I think that will really be an eye-opener for any who do! It is very, very hard to keep one's legs in the right spot when the horse has such a big motor that you are literally thrown out of the saddle at the trot. Imagine the 'big warmblood trot' thrust wise combined with upward push of the horse's hindquarters in addition to the forward push, and that may give you an idea of the challenge of just staying with a horse that has a lofty trot. It is an adrenaline rush like no other though, absolutely! (I have jumped too, and although the moment of sailing through the air is cool, it does not compare to the sheer sustained power of a Saddlebred with a great trot, IMO.)
On the hand position, some of it depends also on whether the horse needs more or less curb. With a higher hand position, you can get a little more curb leverage if you need it, than with a lower hand.

[War Admiral]

Terminology comment: I've never heard the term "primp walk" but I have heard "animated walk" - doesn't the rule book say "park walk or animated walk"?

And big YES to the multidisciplinary shows. I miss them. It was so nice to get to see all the very best from each discipline. When I was a kid, all the eq. kids RAN from ring to ring to watch the really good eq. kids in the other disciplines. You could learn so much.

[bludejavu]

WA - it is referred to as an animated walk but I was referring to local colloquialisms (sp?). Probably the term bounce walk is a regional thing and I've just never heard it in the south. Incidentally, under USEF rules, "Primp" is referenced: (bold wording added by me for reference)

SB114 General.
2. ANIMATED WALK: The animated walk is a highly collected gait, exhibiting much “primp” at a slow, regulated speed, with good action and animation. It should have snap and easy control. It can be either a two beat or four beat gait. It is performed with great style, elegance and airiness of motion.

My point wasn't that her terminology was correct or incorrect (I had just never heard it), but that it is an actual trained gait. She thought it was a lack of training that was causing a horse to do what she called "bounce walk".:winkgrin:

[War Admiral]

My point wasn't that her terminology was correct or incorrect (I had just never heard it), but that it is an actual trained gait. She thought it was a lack of training that was causing a horse to do what she called "bounce walk".:winkgrin:

Not to worry - I got what you meant - I myself was more interested in the terminology, b/c I'd never heard "primp walk"! But I'm from up North as you know so had heard "bounce walk" - I've also heard "two-beat walk" - but my trainer in those days was a stickler for formality in all things, so we always called it "animated". :)

[Tiffani B]

I'm from WI/IL and we call it a bounce walk. Bort was from the same area, so it is most likely regional diction. :)

Interestingly enough, when my horse does the bounce walk in a pleasure class, we call it something else not suitable for a public board. :mad: :winkgrin::lol:

[Proffie]

My first 3 horses were all ASB's. Two I rode saddleseat, the third was much more of a hunter type. I've since switched to jumpers and now have a TB, but I really miss riding SS and still catch ride for friends.

I'm also from N. IL, and now live in WI. I was just at Mayo (Moctezuma)'s barn a few weeks ago trying out a couple of OTTBs that he has, and he let me ride a few of the Saddlebreds too. He's a great guy!

Saddlebred owners/trainers are almost all very nice and anxious to show off their horses' talents and temperments. The breed has gotten a bad rap in some cases, because of a few bad apples.

[Tiffani B]

Proffie, I probably saw you! I board my boy at Mayo's. He's a great guy... my dad was so excited when he found out I was moving there. He just loves Mayo LOL.

[Proffie]

How can you not love Mayo? His place is always so busy and has a great vibe. He let me ride that Callaway mare of his... WOW. Talk about a big trot! My feet were bouncing out of my stirrups!

I really feel that Northern IL and Southern WI are the best areas for saddleseat in the whole country. Tons of great barns, lots of shows for every level horse/rider. Anyone in that area who has always wanted to try saddleseat, there are TONS of options!

[bludejavu]

LOL - small world - I own two horses that were trained by Mayo and bought one of them directly from him.

[HorseShwBrat]

I'm so happy to see actual intelligent conversation about ASB's here! I can't tell you how much blatant ignorance I've dealt with over the years from people who just want to believe that Saddlebreds are crazy, tortured animals.

my Saddlebred knows the difference between the verbal cues "walk", which is the animated/bounce walk, and "flat walk" which is self explanitory, so it's not a lack-of-training issue with him ;p As for the back issue, no properly collected saddlebred should have a "hollow" back, they just aren't nearly as rounded as you are supposed to see in dressage because of headset and how we "push" them up into the bridle.

[Amwrider]

Thought I would also add this clip to the conversation. This is the pinto saddlebred stallion, Monaco. This clip shows the incredible drive coming from the hindquarters. A horse with a dropped back cannot get this kind of engagement or propulsion as seen in the ricing video portions. His back is not round like a dressage horse, but it is not dropped.

This also shows many of his babies as weanlings and yearlings to show how the headset is bred onto the quality babies. The forelegs are closer to the front of the chest, the withers are set back, the shoulder has a good slope to it and the head and neck are attached high on the chest over that sloping shoulder. This is what allows for such a great range of shoulder movement and extension of the forearm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgxQB-Jqbrw

[bort84]

WA - it is referred to as an animated walk but I was referring to local colloquialisms (sp?). Probably the term bounce walk is a regional thing and I've just never heard it in the south. Incidentally, under USEF rules, "Primp" is referenced: (bold wording added by me for reference)

SB114 General.
2. ANIMATED WALK: The animated walk is a highly collected gait, exhibiting much “primp” at a slow, regulated speed, with good action and animation. It should have snap and easy control. It can be either a two beat or four beat gait. It is performed with great style, elegance and airiness of motion.

My point wasn't that her terminology was correct or incorrect (I had just never heard it), but that it is an actual trained gait. She thought it was a lack of training that was causing a horse to do what she called "bounce walk".:winkgrin:

Actually, that's not what I meant at all. I've worked a lot of saddlebreds to do a proper animated (bounce) walk. As an aside, I mentioned that some people seem to skip the training of a proper flat walk these days - this is not something every trainer does, I just there are a few who have started to neglect the importance of it, and that's why we see show pleasure horses not walking as well as they should. This was not meant to offend (I love saddlebreds and saddle seat and grew up riding/training them). I just meant that there is an unfortunate trend these days to allow pleasure horses to not do a proper walk, and a poor flat walk is often not penalized as much as it should be.

Also, a proper animated walk is a beautiful thing, and I wanted to use the illustration to show that a very good animated walk is similar to a passage (though an animated walk of this level of collection is not always the norm, in my opinion). I just wanted to mention that a horse doing a lovely animated walk generally has a soft and NOT hollow back (a GOOD thing), and some of them are surprisingly easy to sit because of how soft the back is.

Anyway, sorry if I was unclear, bluedejavu. I actually am quite familiar with a bounce/animated walk (yeah, it's a regional thing I guess - or just what my grandma, an old school saddlebred trainer, has always called it). I did not mean it's a side effect of bad training because a great animated walk is actually a pretty difficult gait to do properly - most people just do a slow trot. The poor training I was discussing was in reference to people skipping training at the flat walk. That's all. I think a pleasure horse should flat walk, and it seems like you agree. So I guess we're in agreement = )

I'll reread my post and edit it if it makes it sound like I'm saying a bounce walk is a side effect of bad training. I thought I was fairly clear in using it as an illustration of proper training and a soft back, but now that I look at it again, the train of thought is a little jumpy, haha.

[bort84]

I'm from WI/IL and we call it a bounce walk. Bort was from the same area, so it is most likely regional diction. :)

Interestingly enough, when my horse does the bounce walk in a pleasure class, we call it something else not suitable for a public board. :mad: :winkgrin::lol:

Ahahah, yes Tiffani B. Totally know what you mean. I think the confusion in my post came because I followed up the bounce walk comment with a comment saying that I think some trainers skip work on the very important flat walk (which is something you should really try for even in a hot horse so that in the future perhaps they can be a good pleasure horse - once you mess up a walk, it's VERY hard to fix, oy). So, as a side effect of that, we see a lot of hot pleasure horses that have a hard time walking, haha. But then we just have some horses that think they are park horses from birth (I used to have a couple - one we finally just had to gear up and let go park, haha).

We usually politely call it a "jig." Far too nice of a term after it knocks you completely out of the ribbons, haha.

[spaceagevalkyrie]

There are a LOT in N IL! If you go to www.asha.net you can click on the "Saddlebred Stables/Farms" in the search box. Put in your zip code and it'll bring up the barns closest to you. I'm at Moctezuma Stables in Woodstock, and my former trainer Stone Creek Stables (now in Bristol, WI) is also wonderful.

WOODSTOCK? Seriously? What are their lesson rates? I looked it up and couldn't find it on the site >.< I can't believe theres an SS barn probably only 15 or 20 minutes away and I didn't even know about it..

[bludejavu]

spaceage - here's Mayo's website: http://moctezumastable.com/

I'm sure Tiffani can fill you in on details since she boards there, but over the years I've seen him have some incredible horses at his barn.

LOL bort - I think we just got our wires crossed because I did think you meant that a "bounce walk/primp walk" was a result of negligent training - glad to think you meant otherwise. I have two pinto mares originally trained by Scripps Miramar and both of them were high schooled quite nicely. They each do a wonderful piaffe and a passage (and I'm not even a dressage person at all), but it sure makes people look at them in parades.

[bort84]

spaceage - here's Mayo's website: http://moctezumastable.com/

I'm sure Tiffani can fill you in on details since she boards there, but over the years I've seen him have some incredible horses at his barn.

LOL bort - I think we just got our wires crossed because I did think you meant that a "bounce walk/primp walk" was a result of negligent training - glad to think you meant otherwise. I have two pinto mares originally trained by Scripps Miramar and both of them were high schooled quite nicely. They each do a wonderful piaffe and a passage (and I'm not even a dressage person at all), but it sure makes people look at them in parades.

Haha, yep, no worries = )

And I'm another who is glad to see a pro saddlebred thread on this forum! Yay! I actually was working a saddlebred mare at a boarding barn where there were a few very accomplished dressage riders. The mare I was working was saddle seat, but the dressage people always said "wow, she's such a great mover." And then she got a little spoofed one day and did a very passage-esque trot/animated walk in front of them. Needless to say, they were very impressed and immediately thought a little differently about saddlebreds, haha. Plus, she was the sweetest thing I've ever been around on the ground (even compared to most saddlebreds) which changed a lot of their misconceptions too. A lot of people think they are fire breathing monsters, but they're honestly some of the easiest and most trainable horses I've ever worked around. I love them = )

[Tiffani B]

I boarded Carson at an all-breed barn before I moved to Illinois, and there were quite a few DQs there. :) They all looked askance at the stretchies and chains but when they saw him move, they were all drooling LOL. It was fun to talk shop, especially to explain things. The folks who were truly curious and open-minded "got it" and the ones who weren't... well, they're happy in their own little world I guess. :lol:

Mayo charges $40 for a lesson. It's usually a good half-hour of hard riding. He works his riders! Be prepared to be sore the next day. :o

Spaceage - you have an email. :)

[Renae]

A friend of mine worked out of a large barn that had a dressage trainer and many boarders too. The trainer thought the saddle seat stuff was great, especially how we jog (drive) horses to condition them and my friend helped her break several horses to drive. There was however a DQ boarder who could not manage to get her horse into the arena if my friend was jogging a Hackney Pony, and she always had to throw a tizzy about it and stand in the doorway to the arena glaring at him and waiting for him to be done!

[AppendixQHLover]

I boarded Carson at an all-breed barn before I moved to Illinois, and there were quite a few DQs there.

I love your boy's blog. He is a cutie pie.:D

[Tiffani B]

Thanks!

I have to talk to Mayo about providing internet for the horses. It just doesn't seem right LOL. :lol:

[Griffyn]

Any barns in the Delafield area (So Wis) that would be good for lessons?

[Tiffani B]

The closest one I can think of offhand is Knollwood Farm (the aforementioned Scott and Carol Matton) in Hartland, just north on 83. www.knollwoodfarmltd.com

There are quite a few more. You can do a search at www.asha.net - put in your zip code or city and it'll find all the barns near you.

[spaceagevalkyrie]

I boarded Carson at an all-breed barn before I moved to Illinois, and there were quite a few DQs there. :) They all looked askance at the stretchies and chains but when they saw him move, they were all drooling LOL. It was fun to talk shop, especially to explain things. The folks who were truly curious and open-minded "got it" and the ones who weren't... well, they're happy in their own little world I guess. :lol:

Mayo charges $40 for a lesson. It's usually a good half-hour of hard riding. He works his riders! Be prepared to be sore the next day. :o

Spaceage - you have an email. :)

Awesome!

[bort84]

A friend of mine worked out of a large barn that had a dressage trainer and many boarders too. The trainer thought the saddle seat stuff was great, especially how we jog (drive) horses to condition them and my friend helped her break several horses to drive. There was however a DQ boarder who could not manage to get her horse into the arena if my friend was jogging a Hackney Pony, and she always had to throw a tizzy about it and stand in the doorway to the arena glaring at him and waiting for him to be done!

Haha, that's funny. My dressage prospect right now I actually discovered while working at a saddlebred barn. He was NOT a happy camper if there was a driving horse in the ring. Plus the chains and big trot made him feel like some sort of crazed monster was chasing him down. He eventually got over it, but some horses really get nervous when they see a scary monster chasing one of their buddies - especially when the buddy does not seem to be able to get away from that thing on wheels! How terrifying! Haha.

[AppendixQHLover]

In Maryland there are very, very few instructors that can teach saddle seat. There is one show series that has actual saddle seat classes and they are not well attended. It is mainly hunters/jumpers around here.

I do love the multi-discipline shows. It gives the kids the idea that there is more than just one discipline out there to try.

[smurphy0806]

Any barns in the Delafield area (So Wis) that would be good for lessons?

Sorry, I definately came into this discussion late. I ride SS currently. I ride at an Arabian/Saddlebred barn in Northern IL also, actually its more like a West Suburb of Chicago. I actually have never met Tiffani, although one day I'm sure this is in the cards. :)

There is an Arabian trainer... Kevin Price. He is at a barn in New Berlin Wisconsin. Which is about 15 min from the Milwaukee Airport. It would be a little bit of a drive from Delafield... but WELL worth it.
Price Performance Horses
19805 W Lawnsdale Rd
New Berlin, Wi 53146
612-418-8401

Arabians are NOTHING like Saddlebreds. I have owned and shown both. However, I don't know any Saddlebred barns near Delafield. Kevin is a wonderful trainer. He has many very nice horses. If you can, I would recommend taking a lesson with him. And if he gives you a choice, ask for a Half Arabian/Half Saddlebred. To be completely honest, I love riding a Saddlebred SS horse much better than a purebred Arabian, but the Half Arabian/Half Saddlebred cross definately is a nice horse. That cross was my first show horse, and I still own him. He is now a SS walk/trot 10 and under horse. If you come out to Chicago, I can give you a spin on my horse... ;)

[bort84]

As far as Delafield goes:

Hollow Haven Farms is in Oconomowoc, which looks to be pretty close to you. I used to work for Ryan Rongers at Clean Sweep Farms which is in Milton, WI (just outside of Janesville), but that looks like it would be a good bit farther than Hollow Haven. Knollwood (Scott and Carol Matton) was mentioned earlier, but they look they are right in your neck of the woods. They have a fabulous riding school, and if you choose to get very serious, they can easily facilitate that. Both of these places have good websites, so just google them = )

I'd say check out Knollwood for sure, then Hollow Haven. Both are VERY top notch. S. Wisconsin and N. Illinios are both GREAT for saddlebreds.

[Tiffani B]

As I mentioned earlier, the Saddlebred Association has a very good search tool on their site (http://www.asha.net) where you can find a farm near you. On the home page, on the left hand side, is a Search box. Just click on Saddlebred Farms/Stables and input your zip code or city. Every farm within probably 100 miles will come up.

[bort84]

As I mentioned earlier, the Saddlebred Association has a very good search tool on their site (http://www.asha.net) where you can find a farm near you. On the home page, on the left hand side, is a Search box. Just click on Saddlebred Farms/Stables and input your zip code or city. Every farm within probably 100 miles will come up.

Very true. I've used other websites trying to find dressage/jumping/eventing barns... Yick. This one actually is pretty helpful, haha. Way to go ASHA! And it's right there on the first page. No hunting!

[Riggs2009]

As someone who as ridden hunters, western equitation, some dressage and of course saddle seat - all I can say is if you haven't ridden a saddle seat big trot (Morgan or Saddlebred) put it on your 'bucket list' to do - you will NOT be disappointed! It's a thrill like none other!

I also wanted to add how nice it is to see this thread not only positive but there are people who really are interested in learning about the discipline - it's great to see! :yes::yes::yes:

[SmartAlex]

There is an Arabian trainer... Kevin Price. He is at a barn in New Berlin Wisconsin. Which is about 15 min from the Milwaukee Airport. It would be a little bit of a drive from Delafield... but WELL worth it.
Price Performance Horses
19805 W Lawnsdale Rd
New Berlin, Wi 53146
612-418-8401

Kevin may have grown up on Arabians, but I guarantee you he is more than a closet Saddlebred enthusiast!
:yes: I think he got into the NSHs so big because he wanted to rack and still save face ;)

[Tiffani B]

I'm curious - of everyone who posted on this thread asking where to find a Saddlebred barn near them, who has actually called and taken a lesson or stopped by to watch horses work?

[oharabear]

I rode Saddlebreds my entire junior career, and then switched to hunters. In my first jumping lesson, there was a trainer in the middle of the arena who was teaching a different lesson. When I was finished, he came up to me and said "Did you used to ride Saddleseat?"

I said yes, why?

He said, "Because you are the most balanced rider I've seen at this barn, but your hip angle is ridiculous."

I still revert back to the wide open hip angle, especially if I'm riding a hot horse.

LOL that whole post could have been written about me!

Tiffani, I gotta say, watching that video of you made me very nostalgic! My retired 5-gaited Saddlebred show horse is 30 now and hanging out in a paddock surrounded by his "girlfriends." He's still 100% sound and I still hop on bareback once in a while for a spin (it seems to make him happy) but I find that I will still to this day only ride him with my hands up and lower-leg OFF. And he still has *just* as much energy as he did in his younger days!

Really bummed that I sold his old cutback saddle... that trot he does is still a bit much to sit (and intimidating as heck while bareback! LOL :winkgrin:) and it just feels WRONG to me to ride him with my dressage saddle....

[Paddys Mom]

I'm curious - of everyone who posted on this thread asking where to find a Saddlebred barn near them, who has actually called and taken a lesson or stopped by to watch horses work?

Not directly because of this thread, but because of threads like this, I ended up buying a saddlebred last month. I love-love-love him!

[Ghazzu]

heh, it was funny reading the OP- I've always been envious of the saddleseat riders' posture :) I guess it depends on what videos you're watching (I know some vids of tennessee walkers shows the riders looking very hunched, but those are hardly equitation classes- to draw conclusions about saddleseat eq from those would be like drawing conclusions about huntseat eq from a few pictures of tommy serio)

I love watching the Good Hands class at Harrisburg- those riders just have such elegant and perfect upper bodies.

You said it! I'm always blown away by the SS eq kids!

[Sandy M]

Saddleseat Eq riders can look quite elegant (as opposed to pros), but I always think of John Richard Young's quote (paraphrased): "If someone rides well Saddleseat, it's DESPITE the saddle, not because of it."

Now....a friend showed her Arab in "English Pleasure" at Arabian shows - i.e., Saddleseat, not Hunt Seat. Just before a big show, someone had stolen her Lane Fox Park saddle, so I loaned her my elderly Passier Dressage saddle to use. You wouldn't believe the compliments she received on her "seat" and "posture" after the class and how balanced and free-moving her horse had appeared (she won the class). ROFLOL She bought it from me and used it for showing from then on.

[Ghazzu]

Saddleseat Eq riders can look quite elegant (as opposed to pros), but I always think of John Richard Young's quote (paraphrased): "If someone rides well Saddleseat, it's DESPITE the saddle, not because of it."

Now....a friend showed her Arab in "English Pleasure" at Arabian shows - i.e., Saddleseat, not Hunt Seat. Just before a big show, someone had stolen her Lane Fox Park saddle, so I loaned her my elderly Passier Dressage saddle to use. You wouldn't believe the compliments she received on her "seat" and "posture" after the class and how balanced and free-moving her horse had appeared (she won the class). ROFLOL She bought it from me and used it for showing from then on.

My friend Charles always rode in his old Passier dressage saddle.
He was English pleasure champ at the Illinois State Fair one year in it (with his mare Fairy Queen, IIRC).

I have ridden in Arabian country pleasure classes in an older Martin-Kinlet dressage saddle (minimalist padding).

[Tiffani B]

Not directly because of this thread, but because of threads like this, I ended up buying a saddlebred last month. I love-love-love him!

Awesome and congratulations!!!

[War Admiral]

Just before a big show, someone had stolen her Lane Fox Park saddle, so I loaned her my elderly Passier Dressage saddle to use. You wouldn't believe the compliments she received on her "seat" and "posture" after the class and how balanced and free-moving her horse had appeared (she won the class). ROFLOL She bought it from me and used it for showing from then on.

At one point, Stubben was actually making a sort of weird cross between a dressage saddle and a Lane Fox w/ knee rolls, but on a "dressagier" tree. I gather it didn't sell b/c I haven't seen it advertised for a while. But I would have liked to try one!

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Here's a video of me on my horse a few weeks ago, mainly to show y'all the canter cue. Horse is only 3 weeks back to work after almost 4 months completely off so he's a bit out of shape and not as lofty as he'll be once he's tuned up. (And since I didn't ride during that time either - let's just say I need some fine tuning, too). :winkgrin: Gotta get my core back LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQc5de_ME8s

Canters at around 55 seconds and 1:42.Wow.

Do you always canter from the halt? Or was that just a schooling thing?

[Tiffani B]

For my particular horse, we always canter from a halt. Quite a few Saddle Seat horses canter from the halt. The rest canter from a walk. We do not transition from the trot into the canter.

[Risk-Averse Rider]

For my particular horse, we always canter from a halt. Quite a few Saddle Seat horses canter from the halt. The rest canter from a walk. We do not transition from the trot into the canter.OK - so are there mechanical differences in a gaited horse's trot that make it difficult/messy to canter from a trot?

Very cool horse, by the way :yes:

[Tiffani B]

Nope, a trot's a trot - same footfall pattern. The horse is perfectly capable of cantering from the trot. In fact, if you watch the entire video, you'll see a part where he breaks into the canter (on the wrong lead) from the trot around a turn (not intentional, he was out of shape so it was easier for him to canter than collect).

It's just the way our classes are called. We are asked to walk between each gait. We enter at a trot, then walk. Then canter, then walk. Reverse and trot, then walk. Canter, then walk. Come to the lineup.

We can transition to the canter from the walk, or halt and cue. Either way is acceptable. I don't know the history behind this - I know it's more difficult to get a good walk-canter transition versus a trot-canter, and even harder to get a nice halt-canter transition, so perhaps it looked more sophisticated or advanced back in the day when horse showing was getting started? I have no idea.

The only divisions at a Saddlbred show where you will see a trot/canter transition is Hunt Seat and Western. But never in a Saddle Seat class.

[Pirateer]

But you will see them shaking a whip and sometimes rattling a can full of pebbles! Love it. Miss it. Some of the best fun there is. And what a gorgeous boy, Tiffani! Good luck with him.

Or using a Tazer. Nice touch, gotta get them fired up, right?

[Tiffani B]

Or using a Tazer. Nice touch, gotta get them fired up, right?

What the hell are you talking about?

[kookicat]

Great thread! I love hearing about other disciplines! I'm not sure I'm brave enough to ride a saddleseat horse though- they look awful bouncy! :winkgrin: I'll stick to my eventing.

[Tiffani B]

I just uploaded a video of our under-saddle championship from last weekend, so you can see the call order of the gaits, and hear all the commotion. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S77OnNsKhTo

And no, the annoying trainer yelling in my boyfriend's ear as he was taping was not yelling at me.

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Nope, a trot's a trot - same footfall pattern. The horse is perfectly capable of cantering from the trot. In fact, if you watch the entire video, you'll see a part where he breaks into the canter (on the wrong lead) from the trot around a turn (not intentional, he was out of shape so it was easier for him to canter than collect).'round these here parts, we calls that a COUNTER-CANTER!!!:D

[Renae]

Saddleseat Eq riders can look quite elegant (as opposed to pros), but I always think of John Richard Young's quote (paraphrased): "If someone rides well Saddleseat, it's DESPITE the saddle, not because of it."

Now....a friend showed her Arab in "English Pleasure" at Arabian shows - i.e., Saddleseat, not Hunt Seat. Just before a big show, someone had stolen her Lane Fox Park saddle, so I loaned her my elderly Passier Dressage saddle to use. You wouldn't believe the compliments she received on her "seat" and "posture" after the class and how balanced and free-moving her horse had appeared (she won the class). ROFLOL She bought it from me and used it for showing from then on.

Obviously you haven't seen or ridden in a modern saddle seat saddle ;) The old ones did often have the stirrup bars hung too far forward in front of the seat- almost no one rides in those any more. Nearly everyone rides in saddles with either set back bars or adjustable bars. The most popular models these days are the Freedman World Cup http://www.freedmanharness.com/freedmanharness/worldcupsaddle.htm, Freedman Victory Pass, and Barnsby Shively MMX http://www.worldchampionhorseequipment.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=148 The customer submitted images on the Freedman site both show excellant saddle seat equitation form from their riders, wether it be an adult man or teenage girl riding saddle seat well is a very possible thing, especially now that our modern saddles are very innovative and new tweaks are coming out every year or two that give us more options (new this year is the Shively MMXtreem made with a carbon fiber tree and a different type of foam in the panels).

[twofatponies]

Obviously you haven't seen or ridden in a modern saddle seat saddle ;) The old ones did often have the stirrup bars hung too far forward in front of the seat- almost no one rides in those any more. Nearly everyone rides in saddles with either set back bars or adjustable bars. The most popular models these days are the Freedman World Cup http://www.freedmanharness.com/freedmanharness/worldcupsaddle.htm, Freedman Victory Pass, and Barnsby Shively MMX http://www.worldchampionhorseequipment.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=148 The customer submitted images on the Freedman site both show excellant saddle seat equitation form from their riders, wether it be an adult man or teenage girl riding saddle seat well is a very possible thing, especially now that our modern saddles are very innovative and new tweaks are coming out every year or two that give us more options (new this year is the Shively MMXtreem made with a carbon fiber tree and a different type of foam in the panels).

I couldn't help but see the next saddle on Freeman's site:

http://www.freedmanharness.com/catalog/equestrian/saddles/cornelliilaselleadeux.html

:eek::eek::eek::lol: That's the most amazing saddle ever!!!

[shakeytails]

Great thread! I love hearing about other disciplines! I'm not sure I'm brave enough to ride a saddleseat horse though- they look awful bouncy! :winkgrin: I'll stick to my eventing.

I'm sure you'de be fine. Some are bouncy, some not. I prefer 5-gaited horses because they trot faster and don't have as much bounce to the trot. Put me on a 3-gaited performance horse (what we call a "walk-trot" horse even though they are required to canter), I often feel like a total beginner because I'm not used to the slower, loftier trot and my hands and seat become totally discombobulated.

[Amwrider]

A saddle seat instructor had that saddle custom made for teaching and I guess they decided to market it. I want to say it was Jo Cornell maybe that had that saddle made. I remember seeing this type of saddle in a video at the Equitation forum at the UPHA convention in 2003.

[Renae]

Yes, Jo Cornell is a big proponet of the double seat saddles for teaching toddlers and small pre-schoolers to ride. I have taught with one, you can get a lot more done than in lunge or lead-line lessons for this age/size child if you have a good school horse to teach from. I have not ridden in one of the new Freedman's ones yet, the old style everyone was using was more or a deluxe bareback pad.

[Across Sicily]

I just uploaded a video of our under-saddle championship from last weekend, so you can see the call order of the gaits, and hear all the commotion. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S77OnNsKhTo

And no, the annoying trainer yelling in my boyfriend's ear as he was taping was not yelling at me.

Hey, Madison! We're showing up there next weekend! (Morgans, though.) Your horse looks lovely. :)

I, for one, had no idea N. IL was so prolific for saddle seat barns. I ride Morgans and while I've dabbled a little in ASBs and Arabs I do love me my Morgans. There are two decently-sized Morgan barns in Northern IL and a few smaller ones scattered around. I'm at one of the bigger ones, and we do hunt seat, saddle seat and driving Morgans. I LOVE it, and I also enjoy being able to ride both hunt and saddle seat. Just today I rode 2 hunters and a saddle seat horse, which is pretty much the norm! And it is true - once you learn how to ride saddle seat, you can pretty much ride anything! As it is, I'm MUCH more comfortable in a saddle seat saddle than in a giant puffy hunt saddle with big knee rolls... in fact I'm on the search for a nice hunt saddle that emulates a saddle seat saddle :P

Also - whoever mentioned Price Performance Horses a ways back, he is amazing, isn't he?! I was skeptical when he first showed up at Cedar Ridge all those years back but am now a big fan. :cool:

[SmartAlex]

I don't know the history behind this - I know it's more difficult to get a good walk-canter transition versus a trot-canter, and even harder to get a nice halt-canter transition, so perhaps it looked more sophisticated or advanced back in the day when horse showing was getting started? I have no idea.

I'm betting we don't do the trot-canter transitions, because we don't want to teach them to ever-ever break a trot. And also, there is no way to do a smooth and dignified trot-canter transition on a five gaited horse ;) Three Gaited horses, perhaps...

[Sandy M]

Risk Averse - That's nice to know - about the modern saddles. Because I took lessons in the "good old days" and those saddles put you in a chair seat no matter what! And I'm sure it was THOSE saddles to which J. R. Young was referring.

[Guilherme]

There's another reason for the "feet on the dashboard" position, at least with laterally gaited horses.

If you put your feet forward that will push you butt back against the cantle. This has the effect of shifting your weight to the back of saddle, causing it to dig into the horse's back. This will cause the horse to go "hollow," lifting the front end. Lots of front end wins blue ribbons in the TWH/Racking world. I don't know if this works in the general ASB world or not (but it does, for sure, in Racking Horses that are ASB bred).

G.

[Tiffani B]

There's another reason for the "feet on the dashboard" position, at least with laterally gaited horses.

If you put your feet forward that will push you butt back against the cantle. This has the effect of shifting your weight to the back of saddle, causing it to dig into the horse's back. This will cause the horse to go "hollow," lifting the front end. Lots of front end wins blue ribbons in the TWH/Racking world. I don't know if this works in the general ASB world or not (but it does, for sure, in Racking Horses that are ASB bred).

G.

Hmmm. I have never heard this. The "feet on the dashboard" position is not intentional, AFAIK, in the ASB world, it's just sloppy equitation. It is CERTAINLY not to dig the saddle into the horses' back! Most people I know take extreme care not to hurt the horses' back, using thick Cashel or gel pads when showing, and square western or Dressage pads at home.

I spent a LOT of money a few years ago to help my former horse who had developed a small cyst on her back, right where the cantle sat. If my goal had been to cause her pain in that area to make her drop her back, I would have been overjoyed to see the cyst. Not horrified.

[Pirateer]

What the hell are you talking about?

I've seen it. More than once (and had what I saw verified by another person). Sick.

[Amwrider]

I have 20 some years experience with saddlebred and Morgan horses and have never seen anyone do that Pirateer.

I have heard rumors that some Arab halter people were using them on their halter horses, but have never heard or seen of anyone doing this to horses under saddle. Between Tiffany, Renae and I we probably know most of the major players in the ASB world, I know a lot of the Morgan people as well and Renae can add Arab and DHH experience. It is a very small industry.

As far as the feet on the dashboard, the advent of the adjustable stirrup bar has helped quite a bit in keeping the rider's leg back under the body. it is true that we don't want to ride the front of the saddle, but I never tell riders to ride the cantle. They sit back where the seat is and riders that have a shorter thigh like I do sometimes have the "feet on the dashboard" appearance unless in an adjustable stirrup bar.

[ASB Stars]

There is a well known trainer, who is the son of a trainer who I knew growing up. Both father and son ride in the feet on the dashboard position, and always have. The father was known best as a harness horse man, and therefore, we were seldom blessed with having to watch him ride. His son doesn't seem to have any issues about riding like he does. A mutual friend asked him why he rode like that, and he apparently answered that he and his Dad HAD to ride like that, because of their....parts....:lol:

[Tiffani B]

I've seen it. More than once (and had what I saw verified by another person). Sick.

Yes. Sick. Did you report them? That kind of treatment isn't necessary to get a show horse aired up. Ever. And it is NOT the norm. Just like some of the abuses seen in the dressage, hunt/jump and eventing worlds are not the norm.

One or two abusive, unethical trainers does not an industry define.

And people who assume it IS the norm, and find some kind of sick satisfaction in spreading the falsehoods, instead of doing more research, make me so angry.

[bort84]

I've seen it. More than once (and had what I saw verified by another person). Sick.

Mmm, yeah... I've heard (never ever seen) of this practice in the arab halter world. But I used to show arabs quite a bit growing up and never saw this happen (showed from local shows all the way up to nationals).

I've seen a lot of crazy stuff done to saddlebreds by poor trainers, but I have NEVER seen or heard of anyone using a taser... I really can't see what the point would be.

I'm not sure why someone always has to pop in with a comment like this, stated like it's the norm. It's not. Bad things happen to animals because there are some sick people out there, it's not normal.

Also, as far as feet in the dashboard position - I HATE IT. It has always bothered me to see unbalanced saddle seat riders. I never showed equitation much because I didn't like that last little bit of stiffness that is often required to win. But my grandmother ALWAYS stressed proper equitation (ear - shoulder - hip - heel). You can sometimes bend the basics a bit during training, but you should never do anything that unbalances your horse. If you need to look like crap to get your horse around the show ring, you're not ready for the show yet...

I am riding more dressage currently because of my project horse (he was so neat that I just had to have him, even though he was an appy with a penchant for dressage and jumping, haha), but I will always love saddle seat, and once I have the time for more than one horse, I'll be doing my best to do both.

Also, I know many male trainers that do not have to ride that way to protect their parts, ha! They may ride with slightly less upper body poise to help that (less arched back), but their parts are usually just fine without hanging their feet around their horses' shoulders...

And you will sometimes see riders get a bit more behind the vertical with slightly more forward feet at the rack or slow gait in a gaited class (you also sometimes see dressage riders get a bit behind the vertical), but a good trainer is not doing it enough to hollow the back and cause pain in the loins. Now, there are bad trainers in every discipline, and some ride the back of the saddle as a cheat to get a horse to "drive" more from his hind end (trying to avoid that loin pressure). You see it a bit more in the arab world (think big men on little arabs waaaay on the back of a saddle that's too big for their short backs). Another thing I hate.

None of those crutches are good saddle seat technique. Most good saddle seat trainers will make disparaging comments when they see trainers riding like they're "humping a *insert something weird here*" It's unnecessary and absolutely NOT correct. A saddle seat rider should always look elegant... at least in the show ring = )

[FatDinah]

I started out in saddle seat and :Dmy dressage instructor says she can tell, that she never has to tell me to sit up and keep my shoulders back.:D

But she does yell at me to stop pointing my toes out!!:lol::lol:

[Pirateer]

Mmm, yeah... I've heard (never ever seen) of this practice in the arab halter world. But I used to show arabs quite a bit growing up and never saw this happen (showed from local shows all the way up to nationals).

I've seen a lot of crazy stuff done to saddlebreds by poor trainers, but I have NEVER seen or heard of anyone using a taser... I really can't see what the point would be.

I'm not sure why someone always has to pop in with a comment like this, stated like it's the norm. It's not. Bad things happen to animals because there are some sick people out there, it's not normal.


We were talking about SaddleSeat, not Saddlebreds. Specifically I was talking about TWH style saddleseat. And yes, a BN on that circuit confirmed that it IS common practice in her area. I did not state that it was the normal, merely commented, and then someone said it wasn't true. And it is true, if not the norm.

[Renae]

We were talking about SaddleSeat, not Saddlebreds. Specifically I was talking about TWH style saddleseat. And yes, a BN on that circuit confirmed that it IS common practice in her area. I did not state that it was the normal, merely commented, and then someone said it wasn't true. And it is true, if not the norm.

Tennessee Walking Horses are a whole nother ball of fish and their "world" is completly seperate from the saddle seat "trotting" breeds. Such a thing is NOT AT ALL commons in the majority of the saddle seat world (Arabians, National Show Horses, Morgans, Saddlebreds, Hackneys, Freisians, Andalusians and Appaloosas are all breeds shown saddle seat), just as all hunter people don't pole their horses with thin metal poles.

[Pirateer]

Tennessee Walking Horses are a whole nother ball of fish and their "world" is completly seperate from the saddle seat "trotting" breeds. Such a thing is NOT AT ALL commons in the majority of the saddle seat world (Arabians, National Show Horses, Morgans, Saddlebreds, Hackneys, Freisians, Andalusians and Appaloosas are all breeds shown saddle seat), just as all hunter people don't pole their horses with thin metal poles.

Seriously? Take a chill pill.
I wasn't saying EVERYONE did it, and frankly, I don't follow SS enough to know that the TWH folks don't count. Since I have now been informed, I'll be sure to stay away from you guys when throwing rocks. (And Hunters don't pole horses...that'd be jumpers. Good try though!)

[katarine]

Seriously? Take a chill pill.
I wasn't saying EVERYONE did it, and frankly, I don't follow SS enough to know that the TWH folks don't count. Since I have now been informed, I'll be sure to stay away from you guys when throwing rocks. (And Hunters don't pole horses...that'd be jumpers. Good try though!)

You jumped into an otherwise lovely happy thread with an uninformed stinkbomb, and expect what? Kisses?

We're chatting about Saddlebreds and Saddleseat, inclusively, looks like to me. Dropping a hot mess- which you admittedly don't follow enough to be informed about-regarding TWHs in the middle of it, is unwelcome and out of place. What you expected instead of what you got, well, that I'm not clear on.

[SteppinEasy]

I've seen practically every abuse that the TWH world offers over the years and I've NEVER seen or even heard about any idiot using a taser--what on earth would the point be? I think your BN was full of...something. Please PM me this person's name and show circuit and I'd be happy to find out if he/she is really a big name or a blowhard (which I rather suspect).

Saddleseat in general is a pretty small world. Before I started riding TWHs, I heard that they were walked on hot coals to get them to move that way. Then before I started riding ASBs, I heard, no, THEY were the hot coal people! Needless to say, I haven't found hot coals one. And I live in KY, heart of saddleseat.

[War Admiral]

(And Hunters don't pole horses...that'd be jumpers.

Nonsense. BOTH disciplines do it.

[katarine]

I've seen practically every abuse that the TWH world offers over the years and I've NEVER seen or even heard about any idiot using a taser--what on earth would the point be? I think your BN was full of...something. Please PM me this person's name and show circuit and I'd be happy to find out if he/she is really a big name or a blowhard (which I rather suspect).

Saddleseat in general is a pretty small world. Before I started riding TWHs, I heard that they were walked on hot coals to get them to move that way. Then before I started riding ASBs, I heard, no, THEY were the hot coal people! Needless to say, I haven't found hot coals one. And I live in KY, heart of saddleseat.
Know what I heard? Sometimes they FEED them BATHE them and GIVE THEM SUGAR and TURN THEM OUT< TOO! Wild!!! ;)

[bort84]

Nonsense. BOTH disciplines do it.

Hahaha!

@ Pirateer - I'm sure some idiot is out there tasing horses in every discipline (who knows why except that animal abusers tend to have issues), but your post about the matter was out of place and very matter-of-fact, as if it were the norm - like, hey, I hear they tase them too... What? Random. I think that's why people were quick to jump on it, just to clarify that though perhaps that has happened, it's damn rare (I've been in and around some seedy training barns and have never seen or heard of it). That's not to say you and your friend didn't see it happen - again, idiots with issues like to take out those issues on animals... Jerks.

Anyway, every discipline has their idiot trainers and participants, ASBs, arabs, TWHs, QHs, TBs, etc, etc... This was a pleasant discussion, so back on topic = )

Love me some ASBs and saddleseat! When I'm rich, I'll have a training barn with dressage horses, jumpers, and some saddle seat ASBs to weird out the dressage and H/J customers, haha = )

[Sandy M]

As an Appaloosa person.....(originally learned saddleseat, then hunt seat, then evented, then dressage......)

You can RIDE any breed "Saddleseat" but whether it is truly a saddleseat horse is another topic.

Apps these days can only be of App/QH/TB/Arab breeding. Back in the day, when anything with color that wasn't obviously draft, pony or Pinto could be registered, I know of a TWH/App (didn't gait), and at a BIG show, saw an Morgan/App that WAS truly a saddleseat horse. But these days...sorry, I'm not a big saddleseat person, even though that's how I started when I was 10, but seeing an obvious TB/type and more often QH/type being trotted around the ring saddleseat - sorry, it just looks....silly/ridiculous.

I currently have an Arab/App, and I supposed if he were jazzed up a bit he MIGHT make a true saddle seat type horse for his breed - but he probably wouldn't place against the QH types. It is to laugh. Since jazzing him up is about the LAST thing I want to do, we will continue on our dressage journey. But I still find the idea of saddleseat Appaloosas just...... strange.

[Risk-Averse Rider]

I loff this thread :yes:

And now I know what to call it when Mr. Blondie goes on high alert about the flatbed trailer parked by the side of the road a block away: he's not spooking; he's earing up!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Paddys Mom]

I took my new saddlebred to a team sorting. Not because I have a particular interest in becoming an expert cow sorter, but because I like to do different things with my horses to keep them guessing. ;)

Just about every horse there would cut the cows, but none of them had the *style* that mine did. :D Neck arched, tail flagged, ears erect, snorting, and prancing, but totally getting the concept and moving those cows.
http://inlinethumb45.webshots.com/35756/2367154370056982365S600x600Q85.jpg

[Guilherme]

Hmmm. I have never heard this. The "feet on the dashboard" position is not intentional, AFAIK, in the ASB world, it's just sloppy equitation. It is CERTAINLY not to dig the saddle into the horses' back! Most people I know take extreme care not to hurt the horses' back, using thick Cashel or gel pads when showing, and square western or Dressage pads at home.

I spent a LOT of money a few years ago to help my former horse who had developed a small cyst on her back, right where the cantle sat. If my goal had been to cause her pain in that area to make her drop her back, I would have been overjoyed to see the cyst. Not horrified.

In an earlier post I referenced the work of Dr. Deb Bennett and her explanation of riding a la jineta and a la brida. Use of the saddle to alter gait is very common in saddle seat TWH/Racking Horses (and some of those Rackers are ASB bred). I don't know if it would work with a trotter or not, and said so.

The a la brida seat is not poor equitation. It has some very specific funtions. Read Dr. Bennett for more information.

G.

[twofatponies]

In an earlier post I referenced the work of Dr. Deb Bennett and her explanation of riding a la jineta and a la brida. Use of the saddle to alter gait is very common in saddle seat TWH/Racking Horses (and some of those Rackers are ASB bred). I don't know if it would work with a trotter or not, and said so.

The a la brida seat is not poor equitation. It has some very specific funtions. Read Dr. Bennett for more information.

G.

Bennett's book is possibly one of the most interesting horse books on the planet! :D Really gives some perspective on where a wide variety of riding styles and tack styles originated.

One of my personal wants: one day I want to ride a speed racker. I just think that looks like a total blast. I'll skip the sequined jacket, though. In a pinch I'll make due with an Icelandic pony.

[ASB Stars]

Bennett's book is possibly one of the most interesting horse books on the planet! :D Really gives some perspective on where a wide variety of riding styles and tack styles originated.

One of my personal wants: one day I want to ride a speed racker. I just think that looks like a total blast. I'll skip the sequined jacket, though. In a pinch I'll make due with an Icelandic pony.

A tolt, and a rack, are not the same things. An ASB, wth a brilliant (we call it slick) rack, is an awesome creature to ride- believe me. I have not ridden the tolt, which is the gait the Icelandics are famous for.

[Tiffani B]

In an earlier post I referenced the work of Dr. Deb Bennett and her explanation of riding a la jineta and a la brida. Use of the saddle to alter gait is very common in saddle seat TWH/Racking Horses (and some of those Rackers are ASB bred). I don't know if it would work with a trotter or not, and said so.

The a la brida seat is not poor equitation. It has some very specific funtions. Read Dr. Bennett for more information.

G.

The saddle is NOT used in Saddle Seat to alter the gait of the horse. And by Saddle Seat, I am referring to how it is defined in the USEF rules. That requires a horse to TROT.

Those of us who ride trotting horses do not normally consider gaited breeds to be "Saddle Seat" horses. They use the same style saddle and coat/jods but that is where all similarities end.

Just like hunters and jumpers are different... they might be wearing similar tack and do similar things (i.e. they jump) but there is a big gulf between the two sets of horses.

There is a HUGE gulf between anything done with a "gaited" horse (not talking about a 5-gaited Saddlebred, I'm referring to a horse who is not supposed to trot, ever, per their breed and judging specs) and what is done with a Saddle Seat horse. They might wear similar tack (saddle, weighted shoes) and do similar things (pick their feet up high) but they are WORLDS apart.

I can understand the confusion but when people start talking about Saddle Seat, they are usually NOT referring to anything done with TWH/racking horses/Rocky Mtn horses/etc.

[CarrieK]

I took my new saddlebred to a team sorting.
Just about every horse there would cut the cows, but none of them had the *style* that mine did. :D Neck arched, tail flagged, ears erect, snorting, and prancing, but totally getting the concept and moving those cows.

How cool! And thanks for posting the pic!

[ArtilleryHill]

Thought I'd revive this thread in honor of the Lexington Junior League Horse Show, which is about as much fun as a saddleseat-lover can have (aside from the World Championship show)! There's a long video on YouTube from earlier this week. It's a sampling of bits and bobs from the classes that day/night.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amyr6d2Ns6M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amyr6d2Ns6M)

[Amwrider]

Thanks for posting that! That ladies gaited class at the end was a nice class.

[War Admiral]

I only watched on Monday night but I must say that was one gorgeous class of Jr. 5-gaited Stallions/Geldings! I'm usually a pretty good armchair judge but I could NOT pick a winner. Every single one of them was spectacular, NO horse was better, quality-wise, than any other horse in that ring - so it was just a matter of picking a particular *style* of your choice. I've only ever seen 1 other class in 45 years where the quality was that uniformly high.

[sdlbredfan]

I looked at Pirateer's profile, which is an excellent and hilarious example of 'legend in his/her own mind'. (states person is age 25 and a 'big deal', LOL). I too am appalled at the garbage that has erupted from that person's keyboard however, as being absolutely erroneous, clueless and not pertinent to the discussion at hand.

[sdlbredfan]

Thought I'd revive this thread in honor of the Lexington Junior League Horse Show, which is about as much fun as a saddleseat-lover can have (aside from the World Championship show)! There's a long video on YouTube from earlier this week. It's a sampling of bits and bobs from the classes that day/night.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amyr6d2Ns6M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amyr6d2Ns6M)

Thanks so much for sharing that!

[ArtilleryHill]

I am crazy about the saddlebreds, myself, and I've always been frustrated by how few longer videos there are of them on YouTube. Tonight is championship night, and I'm heading out there now. Can't wait!

[ArtilleryHill]

The BIG class! Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--y9YMEeMyM

[ReSomething]

The BIG class! Enjoy!

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--y9YMEeMyM

Love to, but the link's not working. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--y9YMEeMyM Dunno why but the extra http that got in there worked for your last post but not this one. Not for me anyway. But thanks for posting it!

[Timex]

Remember the good ol' 'straight line from bit to hand to elbow' line that we all heard about a million times when we were first learning to ride? Horses head comes up, the riders hand has to come up. And taken into consideration how SS horses are built, SS riders hands aren't really that high. We have a few SS morgans, and its a blast!

[ArtilleryHill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--y9YMEeMyM

[Risk-Averse Rider]

My apologies if this has been asked & answered, but what's the reasoning behind the hunched-shoulders posture? Does that somehow improve the way the horses move?

(not trying to slam anyone's EQ, just curious - so many of the top riders ride that way, it's got to be doing something for them :cool:)

[Renae]

RAR- saddle seat equitation riders do not ride like that, some of the trainers and a very small number of adult amateurs do. Mostly they do so to stay out of the horse's way and let him show; that is carry their weight lightly on their thighs, keep their back soft and stay real light with their hands.

[Deuce]

Mostly they do so to stay out of the horse's way and let him show

Exactly what I was going to say. (though, I do agree that many trainers - particularly male trainers - are NOT terribly pretty riders - but they sure are effective!)

Thanks for sharing, ArtilleryHill!

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Thanks, Renae & Deuce - anyone have video of good saddleseat EQ riders?

[Renae]

Thanks, Renae & Deuce - anyone have video of good saddleseat EQ riders?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U76hMGElH6s&feature=channel_page

[Risk-Averse Rider]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U76hMGElH6s&feature=channel_pageThanks!

That's awesome. But it looks like it would be hard to post like that, with your feet out in front of your center of gravity.

I bet those riders have Thighs of Steel!!!!

[Tiffani B]

Technically, the heel should be under the hip, which should be under the shoulder. The rider in that video had her feet a bit too forward but her legs were STEADY and her balance is very consistent which is probably why she is as successful as she is. I've posted these photos elsewhere in this thread but it's awfully long to search so here they are again...

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eOhcJP7IsN4AmA4A988VoA?feat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/liA_g-Osujq0cd0-y1bybw?feat=directlink

And it's not hard to post with your feet in front of you on a Saddlebred. They have a big trot and push you out of the saddle. The work done in posting is mostly keeping yourself steady, not letting your hands move up and down with your post, and controlling your landing back down into the saddle.

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Awesome photos - thanks.

As anyone who has ever hiked down a hill can testify, sometimes controlling the downward motion is harder than pushing oneself up ;)

I'll stick with Mr. Blondie's little QH trot, thankyouverymuch!!

[ArtilleryHill]

Also from Lexington Junior League 2009, the senior equitation championship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGs967B5Lic

[Amwrider]

So it looks like the pattern after the railwork was pretty simple. Canter a straight line diagonally across the ring showing a simple lead change. Trot diagonally across the ring showing a diagonal change. Halt. Canter a half circle on the correct lead, finish the circle at the trot but continue across the arena. Canter the first half of the rail and trot the second half of the rail back to the lineup.

I am suprprised the pattern was not harder at this level of showing.

I am going to show this to my riders, I have advanced camp next week and we can use this pattern.

[Renae]

In saddle seat equitation judges have gotten away from very, very long complicated patterns that are more a memory test than test of riding. The patterns are kept more basic, but you are highly scrutinized on everything. If you do figure eights or serpentines each section of the element should be exactly the same, same size, same shape, same speed, same number of strides in each section if you are doing the same gait the whole time. In a serpetine you need to have a perfectly straight imaginary center line. In a figure eight you need to hit your center mark perfectly each time. When you change leads or diagonals on a line you need to have the same number of strides between each change, and the changes need to be evenly spaced. Simple lead changes should be canter, halt, canter or canter, walk 1-2 steps, canter, not an extended amount of walk and certainly no trotting in the transition. In saddle seat equitation we never use cones to mark the pattern like they do for other seats, the rider must know her spots and know her horse and plan ahead and ride her horse at a consistent tempo so everything goes how she had planned out. Often times riders will walk the arena before the session begins to plan out their pattern. Patterns are posted 1 hour before the session that the class is in starts and at most shows the arena closes to prepare the footing for the coming session 1 hour ahead of time, so you do not get a chance to practice the pattern before you do it.

Saddle seat equitation also places just as high of importance on your rail work, including your ringmanship and showmanship skills, as your pattern work, which is also different from other equitation seats.

At some of the bigger shows and most of the finals saddle seat equitation is scored using the SEN system, which is explained here http://www.wisconsinsaddlebred.com/info/SENSystem.cfm

[Ghazzu]

Interesting link, Renae!

[Amwrider]

If you do figure eights or serpentines each section of the element should be exactly the same, same size, same shape, same speed, same number of strides in each section

:D That is the way I was trained, even though I never showed Eq. I was already an adult when I started riding saddle seat, but I was drilled on patterns nonetheless. This is how I am teaching my riders and trying to instill the importance of counting strides and hitting your center.

[ReSomething]

So it looks like the pattern after the railwork was pretty simple. Canter a straight line diagonally across the ring showing a simple lead change. Trot diagonally across the ring showing a diagonal change. Halt. Canter a half circle on the correct lead, finish the circle at the trot but continue across the arena. Canter the first half of the rail and trot the second half of the rail back to the lineup.

I am suprprised the pattern was not harder at this level of showing.

I am going to show this to my riders, I have advanced camp next week and we can use this pattern.

It was ride perpendicular to rail to center start point, quarter turn on forehand, right lead canter ~change~ to left lead canter, right diagonal change and then I thought they were to trot the half circle. All but one cantered it if I recall. It was called out by the announcer and I remember getting slightly confused.

In saddleseat you have to quarter the arena visually as they provide no markers, so your spacing changes from arena to arena. As far as I can tell there is no regulation arena size.

[bludejavu]

I showed lightly in equitation as a child before I decided I liked the pleasure classes better. I was taught to count strides for each circle or half circle so that it didn't matter what size ring it was. I still do this now when I play around with patterns at home. Counting strides doesn't always work though if the horse doesn't take even strides - found that out the hard way :(.

[Hawkridge]

I may be biased, but I think I have the best of both worlds with my boy :D

Saddlebred X Warmblood - he's my 4 yr old homebred and I loff him!!!!

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/Bravehawk/bravehawklungejuly.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/Bravehawk/bravehawklungejuly5.jpg

[Amwrider]

I may be biased, but I think I have the best of both worlds with my boy :D

Saddlebred X Warmblood - he's my 4 yr old homebred and I loff him!!!!

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/Bravehawk/bravehawklungejuly.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/Bravehawk/bravehawklungejuly5.jpg


I like! :yes: He is certainly a looker!

[jrchloe]

So the pivot was a turn on the forehand. I asked this question earlier and was told that in saddle seat you want to pivot like a carosel (sp?) horse off the rail (pivot on the forehand on the rail). Is this correct?

[Renae]

So the pivot was a turn on the forehand. I asked this question earlier and was told that in saddle seat you want to pivot like a carosel (sp?) horse off the rail (pivot on the forehand on the rail). Is this correct?

No, that is not correct. The pivot is a turn on the forehand always.

[ReSomething]

I showed lightly in equitation as a child before I decided I liked the pleasure classes better. I was taught to count strides for each circle or half circle so that it didn't matter what size ring it was. I still do this now when I play around with patterns at home. Counting strides doesn't always work though if the horse doesn't take even strides - found that out the hard way :(.

If they ask you to circle using half the width of the arena and the arena is never the same width how can counting help?

[Tiffani B]

Dressage calls for a circle of a specific size (10m, 20m, etc). Saddle Seat does not. It just calls for a circle. The size is up to the rider.

You count strides so each half of your circle is the same, and each circle is the same. Arena size is irrelevant. You adjust your circle to accomodate the ring - and then make all circles perfectly even.

[Amwrider]

Yes, You count strides and try for a 16 or 20 stride circle with 4 or 5 strides to each quarter circle. This helps to make for nice and even figure 8's and also helps with even sized loops on serpentines.

Part of what makes the equitation classes challenging is the fact that you don't know your pattern ahead of time and each ring is different. You have to pick your landmarks in the arena when determining the halfway mark or your 1/3, 2/3 marks and your centers.

The judge can call for any of 16 components on the pattern and can arrange them how they see fit. Some of the components are trot without stirrups, trot 8's and serpentines, canter 8's and serpentines, any diagonal and lead change, switch horses (not seen often), or ride to your own test (a "pocket" pattern) to which you supply a copy to the judge and to the announcer.

[bludejavu]

Part of what makes the equitation classes challenging is the fact that you don't know your pattern ahead of time and each ring is different. You have to pick your landmarks in the arena when determining the halfway mark or your 1/3, 2/3 marks and your centers.

...and that is precisely why I lost interest in equitation - couldn't count worth a darn, couldn't memorize a pattern worth a flip either, and I decided all of that was just way too hard for me as an 11-12 year old. Funny thing tho - years later, as an adult, I discovered how much fun it could be (this was before adult equitation really came on the scene).

[Tiffani B]

For those who think SS horses all have inverted or weak backs, here are two very clear examples of the opposite...

This first mare was the 2008 Reserve USEF HOTY 3-Gaited Saddlebred. She has won top ribbons at some of our most prestigious shows, and is an excellent example of how a horse can raise up in the bridle, AND raise their back up. All while displaying very high action front and back, a light, responsive mouth, and happiness in her work... She is amazing to watch.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SfBUseXD8svoPJ0xRa6pDQ?feat=directlink

This second mare is one I used to own. I showed her in driving classes, and this was taken during one of my rare rides on her.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/vzmZY9fAdMn5BnAF1448sA?feat=directlink

As I find more photos, I will add them to my album. It's hard to find shots directly from the side, as we usually prefer a bit more of a 3/4 angle from the front which don't show the platform of the back very well. And of course, not all of them raise their back up to this degree (which I realize is not as much as desired for Dressage - but still - they are raised).

I am hopefully providing some photos so you can see how the horses' conformation lends itself to the ability (if trained properly) to use their back, with their head elevated.

[Ambrey]

But Tiffani, do most trainers aim for that? It doesn't seem so from what I see. Also, aren't their heads supposed to be close to the verticle?

I do have a question about saddleseat horses- I notice they have a different muscle development in their croup area. What is that from? Is that considered desirable?

[Renae]

Also, aren't their heads supposed to be close to the verticle?

Not necessarily. A verticle head set has a lot more weight in the Arab/Half-Aran show ring than with a Saddlebred. A Saddlebred should wear its head in the right spot for that horse.

I do have a question about saddleseat horses- I notice they have a different muscle development in their croup area. What is that from? Is that considered desirable?

Not sure what you mean here. If you look universally at high trotting breeds, saddlebreds, Hackneys, Dutch Harness Horses, they almost always have flatter croups than breeds bred for long low gaits (hunters) or low slow gaits (western pleasure horses). I think its a skeletal differance, not a muscling differance.

[Ambrey]

No, it's kind of a lumpy look- I'll see if I can find a photo of what I mean.

Here, see this one?

http://www.horseshowcentral.com/flex/saddlebred/154/1

and this one?

http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-188262

I thought it was a muscle development thing. I've seen a lot of flat crouped horses without it.

[Renae]

That is not muscle, that is a fat deposit that is a symptom of hypo-thyroidism. You will see it in a lot of breeds, just more noticable on flat-crouped horses.

[Ambrey]

Interesting, thanks!

[Tiffani B]

Neither of the two mares I posted have Hypothyroidism, and those are NOT fat lumps. I suspect the muscling over the croup is from pulling the cart with their heads checked up. When they're unchecked and allowed to lower their head, their back and quads do the pulling. When they're checked up, their stomach and croup do the pulling.

Ideally yes, their heads would be vertical, with the chin almost touching their neck, while their neck was in a vertical position as well. However, most ASBs are not built to do this, and cannot raise up AND flex to both extremes (and those who can are VERY expensive LOL). Some trainers will strive for more "up", allowing the nose out, and other trainers prefer flexed, without the height.

And no, not all trainers work horses the same way - you can tell by the muscle development which ones constantly work them in "show frame" (and those are usually the ones with trailing hocks and sore backs). However, there are a lot who do consistent "low" work and more of them are discovering this as the years go on. (I won't call it "long and low", because it would be taking a term from another discipline and trying to apply it to ours, incorrrectly. It's our own version of it.)

But the horses are worked without an overcheck doing a lot of quiet lateral flexion work, and also taken for long drives outdoors over various terrain and footing. Many of them do "alternative" work in the winter (patterns, cavaletti, trail riding, etc). Some of our young, up and coming trainers who are winning at the highest levels are advocating this type of work regimine, and people are listening.

[Ambrey]

Neither of the two mares I posted have Hypothyroidism, and those are NOT fat lumps. I suspect the muscling over the croup is from pulling the cart with their heads checked up. When they're unchecked and allowed to lower their head, their back and quads do the pulling. When they're checked up, their stomach and croup do the pulling.

That's what I was wondering- it does seem more obvious when the horses are really checked up.

[suze]

Tiffani, I love your horse! The horse we brought to California when we moved here was an ASB - our older daughter learned to ride on him. It was just when the pleasure classes came along (and were flat shod only - no pads, even) & we showed in those for several years. Geez, that was over 30 years ago!

[Renae]

When they're unchecked and allowed to lower their head, their back and quads do the pulling. When they're checked up, their stomach and croup do the pulling.


Ridiculous. If you have checked your horse so high that is completely inverted and changed the way he is working you have checked your horse too high. A check should be "worn" by the horse, and a horse wearing a check is not constantly leaning on it or is it so tight that it is holding the horse's head in a position that it could otherwise not obtain. Wether the horse is checked or not the locomotion when pulling a vehicle should be coming from the haunches, his stomach supporting his body and his loins transferring that power through and forward, allowing him elevate his front end and use his front legs extravagantly.

How many Hackney Ponies do you see with this bump on their croup? Very, very few. Saddlebred horses? Far more. Both are doing the same work and worked in the same ways, however hypothyroidism is much more prevelant in Saddlebreds. It is a fat desposit symptomatic of hypothyroidism, like it or not, not a muscle.

[Tiffani B]

Ridiculous. If you have checked your horse so high that is completely inverted and changed the way he is working you have checked your horse too high. A check should be "worn" by the horse, and a horse wearing a check is not constantly leaning on it or is it so tight that it is holding the horse's head in a position that it could otherwise not obtain. Wether the horse is checked or not the locomotion when pulling a vehicle should be coming from the haunches, his stomach supporting his body and his loins transferring that power through and forward, allowing him elevate his front end and use his front legs extravagantly.

How many Hackney Ponies do you see with this bump on their croup? Very, very few. Saddlebred horses? Far more. Both are doing the same work and worked in the same ways, however hypothyroidism is much more prevelant in Saddlebreds. It is a fat desposit symptomatic of hypothyroidism, like it or not, not a muscle.

Disagree on both counts. Most Fine Harness horses I've dealt with have cords of muscle on their abs, while the riding horses do not (to the same degree). It is from being checked up. Just as a horse allowed to work long and low builds their back muscles, a horse worked up will build their abs, usually to the detriment of their back if not also worked low.

And as I stated, neither of those horses have Hypothyroidism, so your explanation does not apply to them.

[Renae]

Disagree on both counts. Most Fine Harness horses I've dealt with have cords of muscle on their abs, while the riding horses do not (to the same degree). It is from being checked up. Just as a horse allowed to work long and low builds their back muscles, a horse worked up will build their abs, usually to the detriment of their back if not also worked low.

You have a base misunderstanding then of how the equine musko-skeletal system works, then. When a horse is really asked to raise up his back he is engaging his stomach muscles more than the horse that is allowed to work with a hollow back and weak loin. A horse worked with his head too high for his body that is not asked to engage his hind end well will not develop any of his linking muscles on his under or top line. These are the Saddlebreds that you see that look like they are broken in two with a hind end that is chasing the front end around like a trailer.

[Tiffani B]

I understand it perfectly, thank you. Mayhaps I did not explain it well as can happen with internet communications. But you are doing a fine job, so continue on... :D

But please, stop with the hypothyroidism diagnosis on horses you don't know. I assure you, neither of those mares has fatty deposits over their croups - that is muscle. Maybe I'm wrong about how it gets there, but I'm not wrong about what it is.