Spinoff: Microchips and slaughter

[SarahandSam]

This is not intended to turn into a slaughter debate. On the thread about the poor old one-eyed schoolie, there was mention that microchips are no protection against slaughter--they don't scan for chips until after the horse is killed, just to see if it could contaminate the meat.

I had planned on getting my horse microchipped or branded, because I'm close to the Canadian border, and worry about theft. I assumed that there were laws in place (at least in the US before the slaughter ban, and in Canada) that required a slaughterhouse to check for a microchip before killing.

If there were American slaughterhouses at the moment, I'd be trying to figure out what to do as far as getting legislation passed to check ownership on a horse brought to slaughter... but that point is moot at the moment in the US. However, does anyone know of Canadian legislation in place or being pressed for that regulates horses being shipped across the border for slaughter having to have proof of ownership, or horses at Canadian slaughterhouses being checked for chips or other proof of ownership? Considering how tight they are with paperwork for show horses crossing the border, I am really amazed--and frightened--to think that someone could steal my horse and have him across the border and on his way to slaughter in about twenty minutes.

[caffeinated]

I'm not sure what regs exist in Canada..

But I would say that if your intention is to identify the horse, you may be better off with a brand or tattoo, as those are more highly visible and likely to be seen.

Even if a slaughterhouse did check for a microchip, there are a variety of brands of chips and readers, so even if they checked with one kind of reader they'd likely miss a chip from a different company.

[Eventer55]

I've chimed in before, so here I am again. I only do freeze branding becasue it's highly visible (I keep it shaved down.) I can't imagine an auction house actually checking for microchips. The last auction my farrier went to looking for mules they had a stallion in a pen with mares ponies and geldings, I doubt they would give a toot about a microchip.

[JSwan]

I've not had a horse stolen thank God.

But I did have the misfortune of one getting lost. I aged about 20 years that day.... I swear.

I don't disapprove of microchips at all... but I often think of what I would need to tell someone in order to maximize the chance of my horse being identified.

The microchip isn't number one on my list.

Brands and tattoos are 1 and 2 on my list. That's immediate. Easily recognizable with no special equipment or training.

And this is pure speculation on my part..... I'm hoping that such markings would deter the opportunistic thief.

There used to be freeze brands that were used to signify - no sale and slaughter.

Anyone remember that company? I don't know if they are still in business... not that a brand would mean much where I live.

[Daydream Believer]

Last I heard no one asks for proof of ownership at the slaughterhouse. They unload and the horses are killed usually in hours. It's a fast and easy way to make a few $$ on a stolen horse and many a stolen horse was "found" by looking for it's hide after they were dead.

Since slaughter horses are shipped across the borders in sealed trailers and they do not need the usual paperwork like a coggins or health certificates required by pleasure horses, there is no check there except some border person looks at the sealed truck and x number of horses and sends them through.

I would brand if I were you and perhaps do a microchip also to confirm. Have your brand in a visible place (not under the mane) and post signs on your farm that your horses are branded and chipped to deter thieves.

[JSwan]

Hey - I found that "No Kill" brand!

Just posting the link - didn't read about it. Don't know if it's something you can use or not.

http://www.igha.org/brn_link.html

home page
http://www.igha.org/index1.html

[Angela Freda]

Last I heard no one asks for proof of ownership at the slaughterhouse. They unload and the horses are killed usually in hours. It's a fast and easy way to make a few $$ on a stolen horse and many a stolen horse was "found" by looking for it's hide after they were dead.
iirc the US plants received bulletins about reported lost/stolen horses and were supposed to be sure those animals were not in the plant. iirc that procedure wasn't that successful keeping horses who had been stolen alive though.
Honestly, if the horse ends up at the plant I would not hold out hope for any kind/type of brand, or chip keeping them safe.

My horse is chipped on top of his lip tat, but he also doesn't load into trailers well nor does he like strangers [esp. men] much.... and that's the way [uh huh, uh huh] I like it. :D

[SarahandSam]

Yeah, sometimes I wish my horse were a little less friendly and easy to load!

[Lou-Lou]

Microchips can also be simply cut out of the flesh. :no:

[county]

They don't microchip cattle either nor check for them and the incident of cattle theft for slaughter is really high compared to horse. IMO the best bet if you want to cut down on the odds of theft is a freeze brand. Very easy to see and ID from a distance and they stand out.

[sidepasser]

This is not intended to turn into a slaughter debate. On the thread about the poor old one-eyed schoolie, there was mention that microchips are no protection against slaughter--they don't scan for chips until after the horse is killed, just to see if it could contaminate the meat.

I had planned on getting my horse microchipped or branded, because I'm close to the Canadian border, and worry about theft. I assumed that there were laws in place (at least in the US before the slaughter ban, and in Canada) that required a slaughterhouse to check for a microchip before killing.

If there were American slaughterhouses at the moment, I'd be trying to figure out what to do as far as getting legislation passed to check ownership on a horse brought to slaughter... but that point is moot at the moment in the US. However, does anyone know of Canadian legislation in place or being pressed for that regulates horses being shipped across the border for slaughter having to have proof of ownership, or horses at Canadian slaughterhouses being checked for chips or other proof of ownership? Considering how tight they are with paperwork for show horses crossing the border, I am really amazed--and frightened--to think that someone could steal my horse and have him across the border and on his way to slaughter in about twenty minutes.

I have my horses freeze marked, which is different that branding. It is tied to their registration papers and listed there as well. I keep that area shaved in the winter so the mark is clearly visible from a long distance. Freeze marking is very hard, if not impossible, to alter.

Perhaps that is something you could check into? The marks are large but can be hidden under a mane that is 4 inches long, I prefer to keep my mares mane 3 inches so that the mark can be seen. I have had visitors to the farm and even they, not horse folk, can see the mark and usually ask me what is that white mark on your horse? Works for me until micro chipping gets better evolved.

[FatPalomino]

Microchips can also be simply cut out of the flesh. :no:

That'd be wildly difficult to do, except on a dead horse. I have *never* heard of a horse being checked for a chip at slaughter. Considering slaughter is now outside of our US borders, there is no way of enforcing our regulations outside our border....

I think Microships are a good idea. They are cheap, and good in cases of natural disaster, when you may loose your paperwork showing proof of ownership and some may claim you well broke horse as their own.

But, as big of a fan chipping as I am, I have never looked for a chip in a horse. I have never seen a horse chipped, although we do plan on doing ours and offering that to local horse owners.

A brand is no sure bet. I have seen the brand inspectors ID a horse before a sale that they were well aware was not owned by the person who dropped him off claiming ownership. They sold the horse anyway (and would not send the proceeds to the owners until they showed proof of where the brand had come from).

I know the person who owned the horse, and because she was notified very quickly, she got her horse back. But she had to fight.

The big problem we see with brands (they are very common here) is that they vary from state to state. Kill buyers bring horses in from other states and we have no way to track them.

Plus, even with a brand it's hard to track the owner sometimes. And it is not specific for the horse. Large breeders may have no way of finding which horse we've ID'd.

I don't think Freezebrands are the solution, either. Great that you keep yours clipped, but say someone takes your horse for a winter and doesn't? Say the horse is seen, but it's an unusual freezebrand (i.e. not a BLM or Arabian) and the person, like me, walking through the feedlot does not know how to interpret it.

My #1 solution would be a nationwide freezebrand, like the HA (which never seemed to catch on), as well as microchipping. That way, we can easily and quickly know that horse is not supposed to go to slaughter, and hopefully ID him quickly from the chip.

I have heard in Europe the horse's passport is always with them. Sadly our laws and regulations (like not shipping horses for slaughter out of CA) are routinely and blatantly broken, so I doubt having paperwork follow a horse will ever be enforceable here....

[SarahandSam]

Freeze branding is sounding like the best bet... I wanted to go with microchipping instead because of the pain issue, and may still microchip for identification, but I think I will look into freeze branding. Because I want to show hunters... I'm guessing probably somewhere covered by the saddle is my best bet? Maybe withers or ribs? Anyone know what might be a less painful area that isn't visible under tack?

[cloudyandcallie]

There's no perfect way to protect your horse. While the dog pounds here are now checking for chips, in Hinesville near the military base a dog was turned in to be euth-ed. The procedure there is to run dogs and cats for the chips and that dog turned out to have been lost in NYC 6 yrs before. Great reunion for the now teenage girl and her dog.

It's hard to protect horses as the tattoo on an ottb is hard to read (took me 4 or 5 tries to get Callie's right with the jockey club.) Plus TBs aren't re-registered each time they are sold. Cloudy's German brand won't find me as just like Jockey club papers, he's not re-registered each time he's sold and his brand and 2 #s of his life # will only narrow the field of horses to a few hundred.

So it's microchipping for me. Just make sure if you move or you change your phone # that you log on and notify the company. (I used Home Again but there are several more now.)

If there were permanent neck brands like in England, I'd probably go for that also.

I'm hoping for a GPS device to be so miniturized that I can have that implanted, and know where he is by logging on the computer.

Prior to microchipping, I had all my dogs and cats tattooed on their abdomens at the time of spaying/altering with "reward" and my dln. Any cop could run my license #, which had the state also, and find me. Plus I thought the idea of a reward would make someone check it out. I still have a few of those very old animals around.

[Kementari]

One of my horses is microchipped (the other was going to be, but ended up needing to be treated for Lyme, and I figured better spend the microchip money than my savings ;)). SHe's not chipped to keep her from being shipped to slaughter - I don't think there's any way of preventing that other than responsible ownership and the good luck of avoiding thieves - but so that in the event of the Great Escape or a natural disaster (or a manmade disaster, I suppose, though I don't live in an area where that's likely) a rescue or public agency is more likely to be able to get her back to me. :yes:

I did it in the aftermath of Katrina, when I read of the success rescues had reuniting owners with microchipped horses.

If it wasn't such a pain to get a freeze brand, I'd do that, too (she's an Arab, so I'd get the standard Arab formula ;)), but again, I don't think that's a deterrent to slaughter - though it may make a thief more likely to take the unbranded horse next door instead.

I also have a set of pics of each horse from both sides plus front and back, along with close-ups of all their distinguishing markings (which include whorls, scars, and, in my TB's case, the funny dent in his butt muscle under his tail :lol:). THAT, I think, is my best protection against slaughter: that in ten minutes I could have a detailed flyer made up with GOOD photos to take/send to every horse and law enforcement place in the area (and beyond). It's still no guarantee, but I figure it's a fighting chance.

Which reminds me that I should really get a new set of pics of my girl this summer - the last ones are a couple of years old, and though the markings are the same she definitely looks different at 6 than she did at 4. :yes:

[furlong47]

Freeze branding is sounding like the best bet... I wanted to go with microchipping instead because of the pain issue, and may still microchip for identification, but I think I will look into freeze branding. Because I want to show hunters... I'm guessing probably somewhere covered by the saddle is my best bet? Maybe withers or ribs? Anyone know what might be a less painful area that isn't visible under tack?

Freeze branding is not supposed to be very painful at all. In a lot of other countries where it is more common to freeze brand, it is done near the withers so it can be covered by the saddle during shows, as in these 2 examples:

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/778/85175.JPG

http://www.essexhorsewatch.org.uk/Holly1.jpg

[SarahandSam]

Good idea with the photographs, Kementari... I've got good photos of my horse from all angles with all his markings, and his face whorl, but I should look for other distinguishing marks to photograph too.

It's not that I think my horse is exceptionally high risk, and he's under a reasonable amount of anti-theft protection (not like any of that really makes a difference to a determined thief) but I just find it really scary that you can have a horse microchipped, branded, tattooed, the whole nine yards--and there's still no real safeguards in place to protect him once he's stolen. :no: The fact that nobody cares about the ownership of horses going to slaughter, either when they cross the border or at the slaughterhouse, is pretty darn terrifying.

[Chall]

I'm for freeze brand and chipping. But I think what would really work is brand that signifies reward if horse returned. I can't figure out the logistics of that though, money put in a CD that you can earn interest on, its guaranteed (govt backed) but you can't withdraw it?
But then again, I think every horse should have a euthanasia deposit required at purchase, so a horse can be put down humanely at the end of its life.

[flea]

I once spoke with reps from the slaughter house. He said brand them visibly. He said if a report comes in to find a bay horse with a white sock...how many are there. You add to that "with a R brand on left hip" much more likely to recover horse.

[cowgirljenn]

Freeze branding is sounding like the best bet... I wanted to go with microchipping instead because of the pain issue, and may still microchip for identification, but I think I will look into freeze branding. Because I want to show hunters... I'm guessing probably somewhere covered by the saddle is my best bet? Maybe withers or ribs? Anyone know what might be a less painful area that isn't visible under tack?

There have been several studies that showed little to no stress with freeze branding. I would get mine done if I had a way to get them to any of the clinics they set up to freeze brand (not being able to drive makes that tough).

[SmartAlex]

I have seen colts freeze branded, and it doesn't seem to be a big issue to them. If I remember correctly, the site swells a bit. Horses tend to forgive and forget minor pain like that pretty quickly.

I think registering a No Kill brand would be the most wide reaching and long term solution. Certainly if your horse is stolen from your property, you can alert authorities pretty quickly, but how about all the heart break we hear about people not honoring buy-back agreements? It wasn't known that Harry was at risk until it was too late. If he had a No Kill brand, the auction or broker should have / could have know he was being sold illegally.

[Christine (Fgs)]

The horses crossing the border to go to slaughter are put into trucks which have a seal, which can only be broken (or supposed to be ) when they arrived at the slaughter house. You people are nuts if you think that the microchip, tatoo, hip brand, freeze brand will help identify your horse.

Aint gonna happen. The amount of horses crossing the border is incredible and there is no way the slaughter has enough time, man power or energy to check each horse.

They get off and are destroyed. They are not checked at the border they drive right on through. No need for coggins tests etc.. as they are getting off at the slaughter house.

[Bluey]

Our vets freeze brand client's horses at no charge and have a freeze brand twice a year for the public at a nomimal charge, where a state inspector will, if you want, register the brand also.

Our vets can freeze brand easily as they use the same dry ice they use for their reproductive work, so they have some on hand.

Our neighbor had a gray hot branded horse stolen and was called by the inspector to one of the TX plants, as a gray horse with that brand came thru.
They held the horse until he could get there, but sadly, it looked like his horse in the pictures and had a very similar brand, but it was not his horse.

Yes, the inspectors were aware of any horse reported stolen and were looking actively for them and did find matches.
Thieves knew not to go to auctions, where inspectors are also there at every horse sale and the plants directly, although a horse, after passing thru several hands may have ended there.
The general public just didn't know about this, I guess.

We freeze brand, that our law enforcement recommends here and have owned the odd horse that came with a micro chip and the paperwork that goes with it.

[Boomer]

Freeze branding is sounding like the best bet... I wanted to go with microchipping instead because of the pain issue, and may still microchip for identification, but I think I will look into freeze branding. Because I want to show hunters... I'm guessing probably somewhere covered by the saddle is my best bet? Maybe withers or ribs? Anyone know what might be a less painful area that isn't visible under tack?

I had my horses freeze branded on the thigh. I also registered the brand with the State I reside in. They are also microchipped.

Pain-wise; I'm sure it was not pleasant for my horses. But the after care was no problem. Mainly keeping vasoline on the scar so that it wouldn't get too tight and crack, thus causing more discomfort.

I plan to join NetPosse's database: www.netposse.com

As far as I know, the NetPosse is the closest thing to a nationwide brand database. State by state is fine, but a national "one-stop" database would be awesome!

[sidepasser]

This is what I had done:

http://www.freezemark.net/faq.html

[JSwan]

sidepasser -

Thank you for posting that link. In your experience, how does this brand play out in states that do not have a brand registry?

I have toyed with the idea of branding my horses for some time. It is my hope that in addition to being an easy way to identify my horses, it would also stop the opportunistic thief.

Anyway - the "No Kill" brand owners boast that none of their horses have ever been stolen or slaughtered. But it does not appear that the "no kill" brand is widely known.

I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts on the use of this brand - and if you know of others that have used it and been pleased. Or not pleased.


Thanks.

[Watermark Farm]

I once spoke with reps from the slaughter house. He said brand them visibly. He said if a report comes in to find a bay horse with a white sock...how many are there. You add to that "with a R brand on left hip" much more likely to recover horse.

After a rash of thefts in our area, I had my TB event horse freeze-marked on the neck by Kryokinetics, I think it was called? Problems were 1) The mare should have been sedated when the mark was applied. She moved and the mark did not heal clearly. 2) Over the years, the mark blurred, even when clipped. My freezemarked Arab's brand was also unrecognizable. Both were under the mane! 3) Kryokinetics, which I see is still in existence, sort of vanished. I tried to contact them to change the contact info linked to the brand, and no one would ever return my call!

If I were to freeze mark again, I'd just pick something really dumb and easy to describe, like a letter or shape, and brand it big on the shoulder.

Years ago, a friend's horse had an Indian good luck symbol branded on his shoulder. It was VERY big --- and a backward swastika. The nazis took this good luck symbol and reversed it for their use. Well, you can bet that EVERYONE remembered that horse, with the swastika type brand. I'd bet auctions, kill buyers, the slaughter house would all notice and remember a brand like that.

I think it would be interesting to have a brand that would automatically come with a reward. Like if your horse ended up *anywhere* with that HA brand, someone could scan for a chip, get your info and call you and collect their reward. Kind of a permanent return-home ticket for owners who always want to ensure the horse's good end.