critique of form over fences -RIDER!

[saitou_amaya]

I know over fences my form is a bit of a mess, but I'm having trouble pipointing exactly what is wrong. I'm sure you all could help me with that. :D
DISCLAIMER: I know my horse isn't a hunter. He is a friesian, he is not build to go over fences. But he enjoys it and right now he is the only horse I have that I can show in hunters. Some judges like him, some don't. I accept that and deal with it. I would please like a critique of my position over fences.
Thanks very much, don't be too harsh, I do have a long way to go and his jump can be rather jarring!

http://www.photostockplus.com/home.php?user_id=11982&tmpl=31&event=261751&action=viewphoto&photo_id=15561384&album_id=262129&pcount=45

http://www.photostockplus.com/home.php?user_id=11982&tmpl=31&event=261751&action=viewphoto&photo_id=15561385&album_id=262129&pcount=45

http://www.photostockplus.com/home.php?user_id=11982&tmpl=31&event=261751&action=viewphoto&photo_id=15561420&album_id=262129&pcount=45

[dauntless]

For the sake of your horse, grab mane!

[superD]

you are crouching over your horse you need to let his jump move you into you two-point more. also if you feel like you are not going with his movement grab mane shove your heels and help him a bit over the fence.

[DallasES]

Cure horse!!

It looks like you need to focus on going with the motion of your horse over the fence. Make sure you sit deep in the saddle 3 strides out from the fence, let the motion of the horse as he takes the fence close your hip angle into 2 point position. It appears that you are standing sraight up and use your hands against your horses mouth for balance. Please grab mane as you are going over the fence to avoid popping your horse in the mouth. You said that he likes to jump, and if he gets punished by getting hit in the mouth over the fence, his enjoyment will not last long. You could practice seeing the three strides out over a simple cavaletti and folding into your jumping position.

You seem to be having fun, so good luck!!

[2 tbs]

I agree with both above posts.

Let's see if we can make this simple. You need to do less. There. That's pretty simple ;) Too bad it's much easier said than done :D

You definitely need to get your hands down on your horses neck. You need to slide your hands up his neck and hook your fingers in some mane to ensure you are not catching him in the mouth. It's called a crest release - you press your hands into his neck as takes off, over the arc, and as he lands. His neck essentially supports your upper body (not really but that's the impression - almost think of doing a reverse push up off his neck only your hands are together instead of at 90*).

In order to achieve this balance on his neck with your arms, you need to fold at the hip - not the waist - the hip. If you look at the pix you can see your leg is down but then your upper body comes straight up off the horse and your hands follow. If you bend at the hip you can drop your hands into your horses neck and you will basically be correct.

There is a bit more involved than that and it's a lot harder than you would think because it'll feel weird to you at first but that's a good start. You can also practice this standing on your feet. Put your legs a little wider than hip width apart, assume a semi-squat position, keeping your back straight and your shoulders open (think about touching your shoulder blades together), bend at the hip-be sure to stick you tush out behind you a bit. You can then bend your arms at a 90* angle and as you bend at the hip move your hands forward as if they are sliding up your horses neck. In oder to stay balanced and not tip over when you do this you need to be balanced over your feet (very important when "assuming the postion" over fences) and you need to drop your weight back which, when in the saddle, will actually be keeping you over the center of the saddle.

Are you working with a trainer? If so - how knowledgeable are they about equitation and jumping in general? You don't look that bad-you just need to soften, bend, and flow with the horse a bit more so I don't think you are on the wrong track. If you aren't working with a trainer, is it possible to find one to ride with every once in a while? Even if it's not on your own horse?

Keep at it and if you can't remember everything, remember to bend at the hip while grabbing mane. When you have it right you will know it - it almost feels like a whip or roller coaster as you go over the jump :)

[saitou_amaya]

I agree with both above posts.

Let's see if we can make this simple. You need to do less. There. That's pretty simple ;) Too bad it's much easier said than done :D

You definitely need to get your hands down on your horses neck. You need to slide your hands up his neck and hook your fingers in some mane to ensure you are not catching him in the mouth. It's called a crest release - you press your hands into his neck as takes off, over the arc, and as he lands. His neck essentially supports your upper body (not really but that's the impression - almost think of doing a reverse push up off his neck only your hands are together instead of at 90*).

In order to achieve this balance on his neck with your arms, you need to fold at the hip - not the waist - the hip. If you look at the pix you can see your leg is down but then your upper body comes straight up off the horse and your hands follow. If you bend at the hip you can drop your hands into your horses neck and you will basically be correct.

There is a bit more involved than that and it's a lot harder than you would think because it'll feel weird to you at first but that's a good start. You can also practice this standing on your feet. Put your legs a little wider than hip width apart, assume a semi-squat position, keeping your back straight and your shoulders open (think about touching your shoulder blades together), bend at the hip-be sure to stick you tush out behind you a bit. You can then bend your arms at a 90* angle and as you bend at the hip move your hands forward as if they are sliding up your horses neck. In oder to stay balanced and not tip over when you do this you need to be balanced over your feet (very important when "assuming the postion" over fences) and you need to drop your weight back which, when in the saddle, will actually be keeping you over the center of the saddle.

Are you working with a trainer? If so - how knowledgeable are they about equitation and jumping in general? You don't look that bad-you just need to soften, bend, and flow with the horse a bit more so I don't think you are on the wrong track. If you aren't working with a trainer, is it possible to find one to ride with every once in a while? Even if it's not on your own horse?

Keep at it and if you can't remember everything, remember to bend at the hip while grabbing mane. When you have it right you will know it - it almost feels like a whip or roller coaster as you go over the jump :)

I do have a trainer, a very good one actually. She shows level 5 jumpers and has beautiful form. I have issues though. I have been jumping about 3 years and I have better form jumping other horses, but I don't know if its how wide he is or what, but this horse really throws me off. My body never seems to do what i want it to do while jumping. Its frustrating. It actually looks from the pictures that I catch my horse in the mouth but 99% of the time I don't. I give him just enough release because I have to hold him back or else he pulls a batman and takes long spots. But really, I'm pretty positive I don't catch him in the mouth despite what the pictures look like. I feel aweful when I do, trust me. I do agree that it looks like I'm not bending at the hip at all! Why does my body not go at all the way its supposed to?!

[jetsmom]

Close your hip angle and press your hands down onto the crest. You aren't keeping your body independent enough of your hands to try to do an auto release.

Practice doing transitions while in 2 point without resting your hands on his neck or using the reins for balance. Doing lots of trot, canter, trot, walk, canter, walk, trot etc will help you quite a bit.

Jumping a series of 4-5 low bounces with no reins (knot them, trot into first bounce) and hands on hips will also help.

[00Jumper]

You need to close your hip angle more over the fences. Flatting in your 2-point can help with this. Also, grab mane over the fence - I know you said you don't hit your horse in the mouth, and that's fine, but it's an easy way to close your hip angle more because when you've got a handful of mane you really can't help but follow the motion of your horse! :D

I really like your horse - he's a cute, enthusiastic-looking jumper! Of course Friesians aren't really cut out for hunters, but who cares? You and he look to be having a good time. I suspect, though, that part of your position issues are stemming from riding this horse. I have ridden a Friesian before and they are big, strong horses when they get excited. Of course it's impossible to tell from the photos, but I wonder if your horse gets rolling through the turns, you try to hold him to the base of the fence, but he muscles through and you just have to stick with him? That could explain your hip angle as well.

In any case, OP, very courageous of you to post a picture here. :D Good luck with your horse!

[Hawkeye_horses]

The suggestion to ride bounces sounds excellent. When your horse is going straight through, try closing your eyes through the exercise as well. It's interesting how much more you can feel your position when you take your visual control out of the equation...On the other hand, if you have any vertigo or general balance issues when not riding, you may not be able to do this. Be sure your trainer is present and approves if you decide to try.

One other possibility you can work at on the flat: when practicing two point on the flat, keep your seat close to the saddle and your shoulders as vertical as you typically carry them when posting. Practice asking your gelding to extend his canter and then come back while you hold this position. Don't let him pull you forward or up out of your low, stable two point as you extend and compress his stride.

[joiedevie99]

The hip angle is causing the most problems. You need to think about squatting over the fences instead of standing. Think about pushing your butt towards the back of the saddle as the horse leaves the ground, and bringing your chest down towards your knees. As you push your butt back, your hands should come forward and slide up the neck (which will bring your chest down). Does that make sense?

[caradino]

great advice already given, nothing to add here.

just wanted to say bravo to you for being brave and posting pics of your fresian in the hunter ring! i have to say i was a little skeptical of how that might look, since they are bred for driving and not at all built for jumping, but he is SUPER CUTE, has much better form o/f than i expected, and seems to do a fantastic job for you.

way to go! :)

[Jo]

Think "shut the door" with your butt -- like you're closing a door with your butt.

Good luck! :)

[tidy rabbit]

St Louis! :)

Cute horse.

When you get to the jump, bend over. That will cure 85 % of your problem.

[Tivas_a_Diva]

It actually looks from the pictures that I catch my horse in the mouth but 99% of the time I don't. I give him just enough release because I have to hold him back or else he pulls a batman and takes long spots. But really, I'm pretty positive I don't catch him in the mouth despite what the pictures look like.

He may be taking off because he feels that you don't feel secure in your position. Folks here gave me some good advice when I asked for help finding a distance to my fence... and one piece was to practice with just a ground pole or cavaletti (sp?). Practice riding to that and go into your two point over the pole. Gradually increase the height of the pole/fence. I agree that it looks like your hip angle needs to fold just a little more, and your hands need to come up your horses neck in a bigger (for lack of a better word) crest release. Sometimes we feel like we're doing something, and actually we're not. I speak this from experience!

Otherwise you guys look great and I think once you get that two point fine tuned, you'll look hot in the ring! Good luck! :cool:

[equest]

Tie a ribbon in the mane at the crest, and focus on pressing your hands there over fences. It will feel exaggerated at first but will help you get into the habit of giving the right amount of release.

[rileyt]

OK - here is what I see...

You may not be "catching" him in the mouth, ... but I think it is because you are "riding" his mouth over the fence. If you look at the third picture, there isn't any/much tension at the corner of the bit... so I understand why you think you're not catching him... and maybe you aren't?

But here is the bottom line: Your leg and body is too stiff and unstable, and so you are CLEARLY stabilizing yourself on the reins. That is a big no-no. It may also be that your horse is dragging you to the fence (and the long spot) because you have too much of a grip on his mouth.

At your level, you really really really should be working with some type of crest release. Any crest release means you will be grabbing mane and/or pushing your hand into his neck... and there should be slack in the rein as your horse jumps. I am not a huge fan of crest releases, but they are exactly what you need while you work on your leg and body position. And- ask any good event rider about the merits of "grabbing mane". They ALL do it when they get bumped around. Its a skill worth learning, and there is nothing shameful about it. When you get to the point where you are ready to attept an automatic release (and maintain contact with the horse's mouth over the fence), you MUST be able to jump WITHOUT REINS. I suspect if you tried to jump him without reins right now, you'd fall off the back. As you stated, he tends to discombobulate you during the jump. That is no sin... we all need to learn. But what IS a "sin" in my book, is NOT using a crest release on a horse that is prone to discombobulating you. ("sin" is too harsh a word... but you get the idea).

I see other problems with your seat and leg... but really... the starting point for you has GOT to be a crest release. Its kind of like the hippocratic oath: "First do no harm". First you need to learn to get 100% completely out of the horse's way. Only then can you start learning how to ride him effectivley over the fences.

Good luck with him. He may not be a hunter... but he looks like a fun horse.

[Jazzy Lady]

Do you do much gymnastic work? A series of small gymnastics does a wonderful job of helping position problems.

Another thing to try is to try a neck strap while practicing. Practice grabbing onto it when you jump and perhaps you won't get so left behind with your upper body. Really think of folding at the hips.

Use a placing pole at home to help your horse to get comfortable with the base. Gymnastics will also help this.

Great leg though! Good luck. Your horse is super cute!

[enjoytheride]

One of the worst things you can do for a horse that leaves long and rushes is to not release so you can "control" them. It's a nasty cycle which involves you getting more nervous, standing in the stirrups more, leaning back to prepare for the rushing, and pulling or not releasing on the reins. They sense you are nervous, are frustrated by the mouth riding, and rush even more or leave even longer.

At this stage in your riding you need to be giving a crest release, period. If you were a more skilled rider on this horse you could work on using your body to rate him while staying back and using an auto release. More stability with your body over fences and on the flat will make his ride between fences smoother and more balanced.

[Equitate.]

It would be a good idea to work on the basics. You need to learn how to release over fences- currently you are just sort of popped out of the tack up there, catching him in the mouth HARD. Do not ever hesitate to grab mane.

To fix that I would do teeny tiny gymnastic work or ground poles using a stirrup leather around his neck to grab to get a feel for it. This along with loads of two point work should help you in getting your hands to work separately from your body in the air.
Another exercise: trot fences. when you get what would be a canter stride out, get in your two point and really concentrate on that release. Go with your horse.

Also, it's hard to tell with the watermark, but it looks like your heels pop up a fair bit and your leg slips back. Once again, this can be helped by loads (and i mean loads ;)) of 2 point work on the flat. Think about always having your leg underneath you. After you get your release issues sorted out work on keeping your leg underneath you more. I'm not sure if there are any pics on the web, but in GM's book Hunt Seat Equitation he has a pic of Buddy Brown on Sandsablaze with a perfect leg- see if you can find it.

Hope this helps!

[starkissed]

you seem to be standing in your stirrups and using the reins for balance. I would suggest putting a neck strap on the horse and keep your hands there. It looks like he prefers to go long and then you kind of get jumped out of the tack. Once you have your hands on the martingale strap, practice sinking down into the saddle once he takes off, instead of lifting and standing up in the irons/
good luck

[Aerial]

I saw you guys there!! I passed you in the hallway on Sunday with a big bay and commented on how georgous yours was haha. No critique from me, i suck bad enough without telling anybody else what they're doing wrong lol.

[pines4equines]

One thing that changed my jumping form was a ton of working in two point at the trot. With each trot stride, sink into your heels, really sink your weight into your heels, even exaggerate it at first. If you do this for 15 or some minutes you will build strength and flexibility.

To me, your heels came up over the fence but try to think weight in heels over the fence and it will help you wrap around. I know he's big but you got to get the flexibility in your ankle and knees as they take some of the concussion after the fence.

Also, grab mane. It looks like your horse is rushing the fences, you're back like an event rider so you start to ride defensively. But you still need to shorten the reins with your hands on his neck fingers linked into the mane as you approach the fence. He may even be rushing the fences as a defense to you. Again back to strengthening and two point at the trot. You can even trail ride in two point at the trot to make it more exciting.

Good luck.

[horserider12]

I always tell my students that riding is pretty much all physics. If your heel is down, your body can't pivot forward like it is. Keep your seat over your horses center of gravity, which is the middle of the saddle, not over the pommel, and the jump will naturally close your hip angle the right amount.

[Parker_Rider]

Echoing the "close the hip angle" comments and crest release comments. I really like the tying a ribbon in his mane idea. It also looks like you're super pinched in your knee (I only say that because it looks like my pictures :)). A great exercise that one of my old trainers came back from the Wards with was a brutal balance exercise: Not only do you do 2-point at the trot without using your hands on their neck for balance, you stand up in your stirrups and build your balance. I still can't do it, so I'm glad I did it with my trainer and not Barney Ward!!! But it really helps you feel the horses movement and adjust your balance to stay with them on the vertical, without using your hands to readjust.
Your horse is sooo cute, though!!! He looks like he's having a great time! And I agree with others, you are SO brave posting this!