Hypothetical Judging Question

[Gwendolyn]

In a baby green (or young hunter, etc.) class (think fences 2'-2'6"), which would place higher:

A) Horse keeps a nice, forward, loping pace throughout course, and gets very good distances to the jumps, but doesn't have changes. Instead, performs a nice, smooth simple change in the corners.

B) Horse has a decent trip, but pace is inconsistant, misses a few times, and may have changes but they aren't 100% yet (swapping just in front or behind, or trotting a few steps).

Thanks!

[ImJumpin]

Well, if they break to a trot in either case, it would be a break of the gate and automatically a low score. In a low number entry class or if the entire class had a major fault-- I'd place #1 first and then #2.

[dghunter]

I would place A first just because I think he would put in a prettier trip than a horse who is changing pace, missing spots, etc... I'd rather see a horse who is very consistent with pace and spots and balance and just needs some work on his changes :)

[Gwendolyn]

Thanks for the replies so far!

I am asking because I am (hopefully) taking Dora to a schooling show in May or June, and we haven't even begun work on changes. We will only be doing little stuff (I think 2" on Saturday and 2'3" on Sunday, maybe a 2'6" class if she is REALLY good). I know that is far away, but I'm kind of a perfectionist. ;) We are currently working on a FORWARD pace to fences, as I finally had a DUH moment and realized the reason all of my distances were funky was because we were not going FORWARD. Dora LOVES my new spurs! :winkgrin: :lol:

Anyway, I doubt we will have our changes perfect by May or June, so I think I am just going to work on our distances and pace for now. BTW, I am not EXPECTING to win any classes, but being in the ribbons is just a plus. ;)

Any other suggestions/opinions are appreciated!

[JumpWithPanache]

The lead change light bulb has been flickering for a while with my girl but I've shown without the changes confirmed. My solution, or work-around, has been to set her up for the leads before the fence to ask for her to land in whatever lead we need. Our strategy has been to half halt with the new outside rein from three strides out and at take off ask for the change. Nine times out of ten we landed on the correct lead and didn't have to worry about changes. It also gave her brain something to think about in the lines rather than thinking "woohoo" and lengthening all the way to the second fence. I've used the same cues to school the changes over a ground pole set on the diagonal. I think the light bulb went on, but then she hurt herself so who knows if she'll remember it when we get back to work.

[findeight]

Check your show bill. Many areas specifically have baby classes around 2' to 2'3" that do not penalize trotting the changes.

At 2'6", you are getting to a decent level and would probably need changes to be competitive.

Whatever you do, don't just go along on the cross canter or wrong lead. Fix it, forget the ribbon if it is not a trot allowed class.

[LSM1212]

Check your show bill. Many areas specifically have baby classes around 2' to 2'3" that do not penalize trotting the changes.

At 2'6", you are getting to a decent level and would probably need changes to be competitive.

Whatever you do, don't just go along on the cross canter or wrong lead. Fix it, forget the ribbon if it is not a trot allowed class.

I was just going to post this exact same thing! I showed for the first time at the KHP at a B rated show a few years ago in the 2' division. Had to trot one of my changes but still was in the ribbons. :) But it was listed that trotting was allowed.

And I also agree... if you have the wrong lead, please change it. Yes, I know you are penalized more for breaking gait (if trotting isn't allowed) but I think it's better to ditch the ribbon and fix it. :)

[Daventry]

And I also agree... if you have the wrong lead, please change it. Yes, I know you are penalized more for breaking gait (if trotting isn't allowed) but I think it's better to ditch the ribbon and fix it. :)

I'm so glad to see someone say this! Breaking gait during a hunter course is a huge no-no. If you're in a competitive Baby Green division at a B or A circuit show, simple changes will keep you out of the ribbons. At the schooling show level, and depending on the judge and the quality of the rounds in the lower height divisions, you may be able to do simples and not get penalized severely for it. I, myself don't penalize very much at the schooling show level in the 2'3" and under divisions for simple changes. But at 2'6" and higher, you should have your changes.

I regularly take green horses and ponies to hunter schooling shows that don't quite have their changes yet. I always, always drop them down and do simple changes. For me personally, it's extremely important that they learn to be balanced and on the correct lead. Nothing is worse, and sometimes more dangerous, than a horse who is cross firing around course or on the wrong lead and off balance. For me, I don't think about the ribbons, I think about what is best for my horse, as far as training goes!

[Gwendolyn]

I would most definately change the lead. We're not quite working on the counter canter yet. :winkgrin: It drives me crazy when riders canter around on the wrong lead, even in the jumpers where it doesn't even matter.

Like I said, I would much rather have a smooth trip than worry about changes and ribbons. She is 6, but hasn't shown since she was 4, and that was only in W/T classes, so she has NEVER shown O/F. This would be her first "real" show where she is actually expected to do something besides trot around the ring and over poles. :lol:

[dab]

I'll respond with an example from a recent small A show -- I was nursing a bad elbow, so my trainer was showing my baby greenie and I had the opportunity to watch the entire division -- Prize list, as is typical for my area, indicated that simple changes would not be penalized --

I'm still doing simple changes, but trainer had started working on flying changes in his training rides at home -- If I were in the irons, I would have planned to do simple changes every trip --

I'm biased, but thought my horse's jumping form was best of the 7 horses in the division --

Trainer let my gelding do what he wanted the first trip -- Did a couple of simple changes -- Horse offered one nice change and one where he swapped up front then behind on the next stride -- Got good distances to every fence -- He pinned 4th of 7 -- Top 3 were doing flying changes -- Among the horses doing the flying changes, most changes were nice, some seemed forced, and I noticed one change where the horse swapped up front first --

Second trip my trainer asked for the flying changes -- Gelding got them all, but also built up pace as he proceeded around the course -- Pinned first --

Third trip, my trainer asked for simple changes ... all smoothly done with 1-2 steps of trot -- Gelding's pace stayed consistent although you could see my trainer had to work for that in the last line coming home -- From my perspective, trying to let my horse have a good experience in the show ring and teaching him his job, this was his best trip -- He pinned 5th, behind some nice and some 'interesting' trips with flying changes and ahead of a nice trip with simple changes and a trip with multiple 'greenie moments' --

So, no matter what the prize list says, I think many/most judges still pin flying changes over simples in baby green classes -- A horse that's doing the flying changes has progressed further along in his training, and I don't have a problem with rewarding that --

That doesn't make me shy away from showing a horse that hasn't mastered his flying changes yet -- I like baby green classes because there's no expectation that the horse will do flying changes --

[Soldier06]

Check your show bill. Many areas specifically have baby classes around 2' to 2'3" that do not penalize trotting the changes.

At 2'6", you are getting to a decent level and would probably need changes to be competitive.

Whatever you do, don't just go along on the cross canter or wrong lead. Fix it, forget the ribbon if it is not a trot allowed class.

:yes: It saves you SO much hassle in the long run.

[MHM]

One thing about the shows where the division specs allow trot changes- the judge may not always be aware of it!
A well organized show sends the judge a prize list in advance, gives the judge a prize list at the show, and marks such specs with a highlighter, and also notes them on the judge's cards for that division.

However, not every show is that organized.

[heartinrye]

I wouldn't worry about ribbons with my greenie, I would rather be pinned last now, and when baby grows up be pinning first (with easy, balanced flying changes, that were not forced when younger!) in the ammies or a/o's :) To me, that matters a lot more!

[GGsuperpony]

Slightly off-topic but amusing note about these "trotting courses and simple changes not penalized" classes...

Everyone who has done one of these classes in hopes of actually doing well but not confident of getting their changes knows the feeling I am about to describe.

So you're standing by the gate holding your greenie, surrounded by all the other greenies, and up walks an adorable, sparkling clean, cute pony with a tiny smiling child aboard. God forbid it has tons of chrome.

And you say to yourself, "Ooooh no. Uh oh. Adorable factor - check. Snappy pony jump - check. Precious pony trot - check. Happy, smiling child - check."

And all you can think is, "Please, PLEASE don't let the pony have lead changes!!" :lol:

[Figment]

Do you think doing simple changes just teaches the horse to do simple changes well?

[heartinrye]

Do you think doing simple changes just teaches the horse to do simple changes well?

I think, if done correctly, it teaches the horse to go to their corner, get balanced, continue listening to the rider, it will help later when learning flying changes as they will have the basics down.

[findeight]

Do you think doing simple changes just teaches the horse to do simple changes well?


Not really but it can teach them to sort of change the subject and reward them with a few trot steps if you are not real careful. Clever ones use it to distract the rider and get out of going into a line with enough pace off the corner. They are not so dumb to miss the fact they get to drop to a trot if they don't change and may even get to halt or do circles instead of got to the fence and down the line in the correct numbers.

I am in the camp that you stay home until you can go around at 2'6" with changes. Don't see that much advantage for the horse to do it any other way more then once or twice. These classes seem more for the riders and it really, really is sore point for me to see an adult Pro in there with a bunch of 8 year olds in pigtails and some terrified middle aged rerider at their first show in 15 years.

While you may not be penalized for those trot steps in a simple change, you are not going to get any pluses for them and, in good company, you won't be in contention. It is still preferable to keep the canter even if you do get a sticky change or a late change behind.

[LSM1212]

I am in the camp that you stay home until you can go around at 2'6" with changes. Don't see that much advantage for the horse to do it any other way more then once or twice. These classes seem more for the riders and it really, really is sore point for me to see an adult Pro in there with a bunch of 8 year olds in pigtails and some terrified middle aged rerider at their first show in 15 years.

Hey.... I resemble that comment!!!! If I waited until I could do a 2'6" course at a show (which to me means schooling at least 2'9" at home)... it would be a LONG time before I got to show. And the clock is ticking for me. :)

I go... and have fun. Yes, my horse can do flying changes. But after his injury and when we were bringing him back, I didn't LET him do them as he wasn't strong or balanced enough yet. So we did simples. He can do both... just depends on which one I ask for!

[findeight]

Linda, go back and read what I wrote. You are that adult rerider (if not so terrified) and Stitch needs to come back slow and is no colt that can't do changes.

That is what these classes should be for. Beginner or returning riders and horses with limitations. Not so much Beginner colts that may not be ready to show off what they know yet. Oh, maybe once or twice just to get them out...not a whole year campaigning for a high point.

That is just my opinion. Fail to see it does them that much good in the long run and notice that leading trainers don't bother with it. Baby Green is 2'6" when offered at major rateds and that is where most at the major barns make their debut...doing their changes even if not so polished.

[RugBug]

It drives me crazy when riders canter around on the wrong lead, even in the jumpers where it doesn't even matter.

Well, gosh...I must drive you crazy then. :winkgrin: I take the horse I'm currently riding in the Jumpers BECAUSE he doesn't have lead changes. I HATE the jumpers, but they are the only classes that we have a chance of placing without doing a voodoo dance, tossing pennies into a fountain, finding a four-leaf clover, etc. Sure, I can get him to land the correct lead about 85% of the time, but that isn't good enough for hunters or eq. And yes, I sometimes counter canter through a corner because I'm not going to waste the time to change his lead and lose out on a chance at a ribbon.

This particular horse is older (19-20) and isn't going to ever do changes. He is also used as an advanced beginner lesson horse and working on changes with him gets him too amped to teach those riders. So...he doesn't do changes.

I've done well enough on him without changes. I've won an eq medal qualifier on him (the tests that were part of the course worked out really well for us...we had to halt or trot after two jumps were he would've landed on the wrong lead). I've also had the heartbreak of a beautiful course in eq medals that were ruined by one missed lead.

For young horses...do your simples until falyings are decent enough at home to start trying for them at shows. I disagree with Findeight about staying home until you can get around a 2'6" course nicely. Sure, don't go to AA shows, but there's no reason to stay home and the exposure is invaluable. I'm purchasing a coming three year old and you can bet he'll be going to every show I can get him to. He'll hopefully be doing flat classes by the end of the year and starting crossrails in 2010. I want him sacked out to show atmosphere as well as BEING IN THE RING, which is very different than just being at the shows.

My current horse, who has wonderful changes, didn't learn them until he was 6 1/2. He was sort of a late bloomer and needed the process for changes broken down into very small segments. Once he got them though, watch out...shift your weight and you got a change. I didn't keep him home because he needed to be in the ring, learning what it means to show. I also didn't take him to big shows, but even our local association has a 'trotting penalized' rule for the crossrails. I took him anyway for the mileage.

[Gwendolyn]

Findeight: the divisions I'm referring to are SPECIFICALLY for young horses. I would not be competing against children or amateurs.

I have started many horses myself, and taken even more to their first show. There are some schooling shows in my area that have a walk/trot POLES class for babies (I even sponsored said division 2 years ago). I think it is extremely important for a horse to go to a show, and be in the ring as a baby. The more exposure they get, the quieter they will be when it is time to jump the real fences. I do not want a horse that is jumping 3' to have to be longed at 5:00 am then jumped around for 30 minutes BEFORE it shows. My horses NEVER get longed at the show, and only need to pop over 3 or 4 fences before their class. I also don't believe that it is hurting them to go to a show and do crossrails. Why not take them? JMHO ;)

[Midge]

Okay, maybe I am just tired and grumpy, but really, what a lot of conjecture for no purpose in the OP! A young horse without changes is clearly going to the show for a little low key mileage and a good experience. Why in the world worry about ribbons? The OP assumes both the quality of her own trip and the quality of the competitors in conjecturing who is going to get what ribbons.

Go to the show, get some nice mileage on your greenie and enjoy the process. Worry about the ribbons when they will mean something.

[findeight]

Just to clarify, I was not referring to crossrails, poles or specific baby classes but to open classes billed as Hunter and done over a full course at the canter.

Did not say stay at home completely just you should have rudimentary changes (at least) before entering a class that requires the canter and most bigger barns start them at 2'6", so do the USEF AA rateds offering Baby Green-and those may not be 100% in their changes but they are there.

Like I said, that would be my opinion, you are free to think otherwise.

In OPs example back on page 1, neither would place that well, green or not, if there were others more polished. More of a best of the worst example then who should win.

[pwynnnorman]

Just wanted to add an interesting statement a BNT H-J trainer recently said to me about my mare, who was loping around (on the flat) with a rider who'd never ridden her before. When the trainer told the rider to ask for changes and the mare did them well (she's basically there, but I haven't pressured her much), he said (with eerie confidence, IMO): "Oh, they always get them easily when they can lope around like that."

Interesting, but I was actually thinking, "Oh, she got them easily because the rider rode them with such assurance!"

Later, they (the changes) weren't so smooth (some head tossing and a tail flip or two) in the ticketed warm ups, but the mare was a bit more on the muscle and, I think, the rider had more to deal with. But THAT just got me back around to what the BNT said, after all. Now I'm thinking, "Hmmm, I need get her more ho-hum, lopey on course now," which will be a fun challenge.

Anyway, I wrote all that because, in reading the OP's first post, it sounds like her horse has all the ingredients to get the change, but maybe (just maybe, OP!) they aren't there yet because the OP isn't there yet? I'm just speculating about the psychology of asking, OP. I had a junior on my mare, but I've had a pro on--and both had no problems with her changes, but when I'd put non-hunter riders on, they couldn't get them at all. Makes me wonder about the tact, timing and talent, y'know? The BNT's words implied that if the horse is loping around, as the OPs sounds like it is, it should have no problem with its changes...BUT if the rider has a lot more to do or, having developed the horse herself, isn't as "assured" as a stranger to the horse might be...I do wonder if the outcomes differ.

When you're developing them yourself, how much, do you suppose, are lead changes really "just" a head game (assuming everything else is in place)? I dunno. I've had a whole line of ponies with autoswaps, so, yeah, I could "do" their changes with assurance (but NOT of my ride--just of them). But if ever I had the opportunity to take lessons, I'd want to learn how to step into that outside stirrup with the assurance I've seen in some of the riders I've admired!

BTW, I chose the word "assurance" for a reason:
2: the state of being assured...b: being certain in the mind ...c: confidence of mind or manner : easy freedom from self-doubt or uncertainty ... 3: something that inspires or tends to inspire confidence.

[findeight]

Pwynn, I don't think they are rocket science either and always select anything I buy already equipped-even the unbroke 2 y/o back when had a nice change in the field that carried over. Oh they'll flub them once in awhile-pilot error mostly or a green one gets distracted or excited.

Do think pace and straightness influence a good change and if they are not there, they have trouble. Hence part of my dislike for too much work over teeny tiny fences on a 9' step. Just not condusive to a clean change.

90% of them are born knowing how to do it...then we get on and mess them up.

[RugBug]

Hence part of my dislike for too much work over teeny tiny fences on a 9' step. Just not condusive to a clean change.


Huh? I don't know many people who jump the small jumps on a 9' stride. (unless it's a pony or a VERY short-strided horse)

[findeight]

Bug, you should see the 2' classes around here. Adds and double adds in a 58' line on a 16.2+. No wonder they miss the change.

[RugBug]

Bug, you should see the 2' classes around here. Adds and double adds in a 58' line on a 16.2+. No wonder they miss the change.

Ah...I see. I don't see a ton of that. We do have a few that do the adds, but when the jumps are smaller, you don't get carried into the line at all and you're distance out isn't set as far back as when the jumps are bigger...so that extra 12' for landing and take-off is usually too much space and you've got to cover more ground IN the line. 9' would definitely get you a double add....or an icky add and half.