Why keep breeding grey horses?

[Merle]

So here at my vet school some of us see grey horses and think "oh too bad!" since we have dissected multiple grey horses. All had melanoma, one was older and it was literally everywhere you looked. So, honestly, why don't we breed the grey gene out? Just because people like the look of a grey horse doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me. I don't mean to start a trainwreck but honestly I see the grey gene as something that is a detriment to the horse.

There has been research on grey horses and no one has come to a conclusion as to the exact mechanism on why they get their own type of melanoma. They do know that it's not usually as lethal (and usually takes a very long time to progress) compared to a solid colored horse who gets melanoma.

Is it worth the horse having a form of cancer for the beautiful grey color? Personally I will never own or breed to one - both because of the melanoma and my goodness to keep one clean can sometimes be a hassle! ;)

[clint]

I have an irrational love of grey horses and would feel terrible if they were bred out. I know about melanomas and honestly, horses are so creative at doing harm to themselves in a variety of ways that I'm not really dissuaded by the generally not lethal melanoma common to greys. Someday I will have my dream grey horse, I hope. :)

[showjumpers66]

Because they jump well? :lol: Okay, seriously ... we don't breed for a color, but rather for the best horse. In our jumper program, the Holsteiner is a very important piece. The majority of the best modern Holsteiners are grey. Those fantastic traits coming through Ramzes often go hand-in-hand with the grey color. Yes, we can breed the color out, but will we also lose the quality??? Not a risk that I am willing to take.

I would be interested in seeing the research involved. We honestly have not had problems with it and half of our breeding stock is grey. Most of the horses that I do see beginning to have problems are 20 plus years old.

[can't re-]

Your comments remind me of a vet saying that I am so brave to even breed. He sees the worse case scenerarios over and over every foaling season. Mares dying, foals dying. He said he isn't brave enough to breed after everything he has seen. At the vet school you are seeing the worst case scenarios.

I don't know anyone breeding grey horses because they are grey - though maybe there are. Many of the best jumping sires and lines are grey. I breed for the best horse I can, if it is a grey stallion and the best one for my mare, I am not going to not breed to him because he is grey. Though, and maybe this doesn't follow my logic, I wont breed a grey to a grey.

[Sakura]

Well, to each their own I guess... I am not the biggest fan of the color grey... but I'm not going to pass up breeding a grey horse if he/she is a superior animal... besides breeding a grey to a non grey will get you a heterozygous grey that could produce non grey offspring... Now why would you want to eleminate all those genes out there ;).

[shawneeAcres]

Personally I have had many grey horses and none of them suffered any effects of grey horse melanomas. Have a mare now that has a small one on her tail, she is 14 and is fine. Most vets agree that it is highly unlikely the melanoma in grey hroses will contribute to their death as it is usually somewhat slow to grow. I personally do not worry about it. Horse WILL die of something and honestly think there are far worse inherited issues than the grey color! As we learn more and more we are going to be finding that more things are genetically linked to disease and other problems. We cannot stop breeding EVERYTHING because of the possible genetic links, jsut be reasonalbe and use our heads not to breed the really bad stuff like HYPP and HERDA.

[Merle]

Very interesting!! I knew I'd get some great responses! And I have an equally irrational fear of grey horses, I will admit. ;)

PS. Silver Lining is a shining example of a VERY nice grey! My goodness ... lovely! Maybe you guys will convince me to breed grey. :D

[Sebastian]

I have an irrational love of grey horses and would feel terrible if they were bred out. I know about melanomas and honestly, horses are so creative at doing harm to themselves in a variety of ways that I'm not really dissuaded by the generally not lethal melanoma common to greys. Someday I will have my dream grey horse, I hope. :)

What clint said!! And, I actually HAVE my perfect dream grey horse. This is like saying that people with blue eyes are more sensitive to the sun, so let's not let them reproduce... :eek:

Seb :)

p.s. the only horse I ever lost to cancer was a chestnut. :yes:

[Daventry]

Wow, what an ignorant statement!

And you're statement below totally contradicts what you're saying:
"They do know that it's not usually as lethal (and usually takes a very long time to progress) compared to a solid colored horse who gets melanoma."

Our 19 year old stallion is grey and doesn't have any melanoma's, nor does our older grey broodmare. Are grey's more prone to developing them, sure. But, if that's your statement, I think it would be better to start a crusade to abolish all of the sires and mares out there who are producing OCD, navicular syndrome, Cushings, ringbone, club feet....or a predisposition for it into their foals.

Holy! :no:

[not again]

My two favorite greys died in their late 20's and not from melanoma. Right now I have a 22 year old and an 8 year old grey. Both are great athletes and in great health. Don't tell them about your fears!

[twofatponies]

If melanomas tended to strike three year olds, it would interfere with the horse having a useful (to people) life. Because it happens in old age perhaps it's less relevant to making breeding decisions? I would think that would also prevent it from disappearing in a wild herd - horses would already have passed their breeding life by the time they were affected, so gray could remain in the gene pool (unless there are other strikes against it, like making the horse more visible to predators).

[EventerAJ]

I think it's pretty shallow to think that people only breed gray horses for "color." There are some FABULOUS equine athletes who happen to be gray; not all get melanomas, or at least badly enough to be life-threatening.


I have a gray mare. I didn't buy her because of her color (Lord no, you think I *like* waking up an hour early to clean her white???). I love her because she is an amazing jumper, has stamina to run all day, and is extremely intelligent with a wonderful work ethic. At age 11, she is starting to develop minor melanomas... it scares me to death, but I know that she is as likely to die of colic, a lightning strike, or freak injury, etc as the melanomas.

I have been toying with the idea of breeding her, somewhere down the line. I would not like another gray, but I know there's a 50/50 chance (I wouldn't breed her to another gray); I would be happy with whatever I got, so long as it is just like her!

I take the decision to breed very seriously, as do most people. I don't know anyone who breeds simply to get a gray. You're trying to get a GOOD horse, a sound, talented athlete with a good brain. Color doesn't matter.

If gray horses weren't allowed to reproduce, I would never have ended up with mine... and that would be truly sad indeed!

[Merle]

I just wanted to get some interesting conversations going. I don't mean to offend anyone and probably the majority of greys living do not have melanoma. :) Please take my words very lightly! There are obviously WONDERFUL and truly amazing horses who are grey! I just see some of the inside workings and wonder. And I do know you guys don't breed for a color. ;)

PS. I find it very interesting that many of the best Holsteiner jumpers horses are grey. Any other correlates like that?

Give me some ammo that I can tell my vet friends! "Hey, actually I've heard from breeders that some of the best Holsteiner jumpers are grey!" :D

Wow, what an ignorant statement!

And you're statement below totally contradicts what you're saying:
"They do know that it's not usually as lethal (and usually takes a very long time to progress) compared to a solid colored horse who gets melanoma."

Our 19 year old stallion is grey and doesn't have any melanoma's, nor does our older grey broodmare. Are grey's more prone to developing them, sure. But, if that's your statement, I think it would be better to start a crusade to abolish all of the sires and mares out there who are producing OCD, navicular syndrome, Cushings, ringbone, club feet....or a predisposition for it into their foals.

Holy! :no:

[CDE Driver]

I really have no idea what I am talking about ;) and this is purely anecdotal.... but I was told that horses born black or bay or brown have less chance of the melanomas than the ones born more grayish. :)

[Sebastian]

Give me some ammo that I can tell my vet friends! "Hey, actually I've heard from breeders that some of the best Holsteiner jumpers are grey!" :D

You say, "Hey, vet friends! I got one word for you -- Capitol I!" :winkgrin: (oops, does that actually count as 2 words???)

Just a suggestion from someone in the Holsteiner camp... :yes:
Seb :)

[rideagoldenpony]

My observations are that some lines have it and some don't. I have owned MANY grey ponies, lots of them into teens, and some into twenties, and NONE of them had melanomas -- not even a small one.

I did visit a pony farm years ago, however, that had bred strongly along particular bloodlines, and EVERY grey pony they had had melanomas.

[Daydream Believer]

I avoid gray actually...not so much out of fear for melanoma but because it masks a horse's true color....fades it out if you will. One thing I love about my breed is the variety of colors and I hate to see a gray horse turn white. I do think they are pretty when they are dappled but that only lasts a few years most of the time.

[RiddleMeThis]

I really have no idea what I am talking about ;) and this is purely anecdotal.... but I was told that horses born black or bay or brown have less chance of the melanomas than the ones born more grayish. :)

Horses that are homozygous gray are more prone to melanomas.
Horses that are homozygous gray are more prone to vitiligo.
Horses that are heterozygous for gray are more likely to have fleabites.

And the one that is kind of related to your post:
Horses that are aa (for agouti) are also more prone to melanomas.

[LoveMyArabians]

I happen to believe color in horses is very important.
At least in Arabian horses it is.

Certain traits will follow color in horses... for example... a grey stallion I knew... all of his grey get had incredible movement, long beautiful necks, good size and bred that on... his bays were more pony like, little to no incredible movement, good breeding horses, but lost much of the pizzazz that the greys carried on.

This is true for many of the other colors. Color is very important because it does carry traits.

Cindy

[ann kitchel]

I have no problem with Grey horses. Very popular with the hunter market. Love a good grey with lots of white.........although eventually they will be all white!
ann kitchel
www.huntingtonfarm.com

[Daventry]

I happen to believe color in horses is very important.
At least in Arabian horses it is.

Certain traits will follow color in horses... for example... a grey stallion I knew... all of his grey get had incredible movement, long beautiful necks, good size and bred that on... his bays were more pony like, little to no incredible movement, good breeding horses, but lost much of the pizzazz that the greys carried on.

This is true for many of the other colors. Color is very important because it does carry traits.

Cindy

That's completely false. The grey color gene, just like any other color gene cannot influence how other genetic material is passed on to offspring or that it can "carry" other genetic material along with it. It's impossible! All you are seeing is certain traits being more dominant in some foals. Remember, the mare can have a lot of influence, or lack of influence on the foal as well. Color does NOT carry other traits along with it. Genes pass on traits and nothing can influence that one way or another.

[RiddleMeThis]

That's completely false. The grey color gene, just like any other color gene cannot influence how other genetic material is passed on to offspring or that it can "carry" other genetic material along with it. It's impossible! All you are seeing is certain traits being more dominant in some foals. Remember, the mare can have a lot of influence, or lack of influence on the foal as well. Color does NOT carry traits. Genes pass on traits and nothing can influence that one way or another.While I completely 100% agree that gray does not "carry" any traits with it nor does it cause any other conformation traits, Id like to point out that it IS possible for genes to pass together. KIT and Extension (along with a few others) is one example of this. They just have to be in close enough proximity to each other.

[Donella]

Well, they certainly are not bred FOR their color. I think grey is very likely the hardest color to sell (dressage market), and not because of anything related to health, but because it is not fashionable in dressage horses. Our Londonderry filly is going grey and I swear almost everyone that sees her says " Super filly! ....too bad shes grey".

[Daventry]

So here at my vet school some of us see grey horses and think "oh too bad!" since we have dissected multiple grey horses. All had melanoma, one was older and it was literally everywhere you looked.



You have to remember too that you are at vet school. You are going to be working on cases worth dissecting, or how else are you going to learn? I'm sure it's more beneficial to dissect a sick horse and be able to learn than always doing the healthy ones. So, I'm sure you're going to get all kinds of interesting diseases and problems coming in.

We had a very, very old liver chestnut Quarter Horse that we had to put down due to cancerous lesions and we donated to the local vet school so the students could learn. Does that mean that we should stay away from breeding liver chestnut QH's? :( I'm thinking you're just seeing an excess of them due to the nature of the school.

[RiddleMeThis]

Just because you are breeding your bay mare to a bay stallion doesn't mean you won't end up with grey!
You can only get a gray if you breed to a gray. Bay x bay will not give you gray. At least how the mutation stands right now.

[caffeinated]

Just because you are breeding your bay mare to a bay stallion doesn't mean you won't end up with grey!


Grey is a dominant sort of thing- if a horse carries it, the horse will express it and go grey, last I checked. Unless the gene mutates, or a different color gene mutates, I can't see how a bay to bay cross could ever get you grey.

Which is why it would hypothetically be "easy" to breed out.

I am very interested in the stuff on melanoma rates in homozygous v. heterozygous greys, as the owner of a grey :) I will probably do some googling on it, but if anybody has any links to articles on that specific point I'd be interested to read them.

[RiddleMeThis]

I am very interested in the stuff on melanoma rates in homozygous v. heterozygous greys, as the owner of a grey :) I will probably do some googling on it, but if anybody has any links to articles on that specific point I'd be interested to read them.
The only article I know of that mentions/talks about it is a research paper.
Here is the link
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v40/n8/abs/ng.185.html

It costs $18 to read just that paper or more for a complete subscription to the paper but here is a good summary from a researcher at UC Davis about the homozygous/heterozygous.

" They then looked at four traits in gray horses: speed of graying, amount of speckling, incidence of melanomas, and incidence of vitiligo. They typed 694 Lippizaner horses for the duplication and then looked at these four traits in those horses. Statistically, horses homozygous for the duplication grayed faster, showed less speckling, and had a higher incidence of melanomas and vitiligo.

Another interesting discovery was that horses that were genetically black (a/a) as opposed to A/A or A/a had a higher incidence of melanomas. This suggests that increased MC1R signaling (MC1R does not signal in bay-based horses because agouti blocks the MC1R receptor) promotes melanoma development in gray horses."

[columbus]

People love to drive themselves crazy and grey is so easy to see, so lets develop and irrational fear of living with a grey horse and ignore the huge majority of grey horses who live out long lives with no problems. I don't think I would say that any grey horse DOESN'T get melanomas...maybe they all do and you could autopsy the heck out of them and find one of those buggers in every grey horse...but it that why they died. I have know horses with melanomas their whole life, had long very very successful lives, who died in their 30s of something else. Because they are grey you do not know what they will have problems with. Working in Blood Banking and a major hospital there are many surgeries I would be terrified of having because the bad ones are so memorable but I have to remember that I am at the last stop for people...not their FIRST bypass but their THIRD bypass and with every complications possible...they come to us. So what I have is an IRRATIONAL fear, something the world is FULL of in our day and age. Too much information and too many people becoming experts with a small amount of information. Grey is just a color...like it or dont...but hate it because they are dirt balls sleeping on poop pillows. Now you want to be afraid think LIPOMA!!!! The invisible killer!!!!! PatO

[Meredith Clark]

I did a necropsy a couple of semesters ago. The owner brought the horse because it was sickly, couldn't keep weight, ect. When we opened it up it was FULL of melanomas. I mean EVERYWHERE. Quite sad.

I leased a grey that had a "bump" on his muzzle at 4. It did make me nervous but I don't think it would have been the make or break in my purchase (that was the price!).

People defiantly breed for grey, my friend has a "white" horse (he may have been darker when he was young, she got him when he was a bit older) and she's always trying to find another one and they're everywhere.

example: http://www.norsirefarms.com/ourwhitelady.html

[Ratatosk]

Thanks for the scientific angle on this RiddleMeThis. I've considered Cardento recently, and would for sure still breed to this very excellent stallion - just decided to ride the mare instead as the injury didn't take as long to heal as we initially feared- but I think I fininshed every conversation about it with "even though he is gray".

My prejudice has more to do with that I am a lazy groomer and don't like white hairs all over everything (obviously I'm quite prepared to get over it in a big hurry if I think the stallion is the right one).

[RiddleMeThis]

example: http://www.norsirefarms.com/ourwhitelady.html
Just wanted to point out that neither of those two (Our White Lady and Pure White Gold) are gray.

[nightsong]

So here at my vet school some of us see grey horses and think "oh too bad!" since we have dissected multiple grey horses. All had melanoma, one was older and it was literally everywhere you looked.

Is it worth the horse having a form of cancer for the beautiful grey color? ;)

I was reading a report that said that all gray/grey horses that don't succumb earlier to other causes will die of melanoma ON THE INTERNAL ORGANS. To all of those who say their grays have no melanoma, how can you tell?

[Daventry]

Just because you are breeding your bay mare to a bay stallion doesn't mean you won't end up with grey!

Heritability can carry for generations, and this includes coat color so you can breed and breed and breed and chances are you aren't going to breed the color out.

Oh I want to pull my hair out when I see this!! :eek: Grey is a dominant gene, meaning it CANNOT skip generations and then suddenly appear. Grey, Roan, Dun and single dilutes (Buckskin, Palomino & Smokey Black) are exactly the same. In order for a foal to suddenly turn grey, or any of the colors listed above, at least one parent MUST also be grey, or that color.

If you breed a non-grey to a non-grey, there is absolutely NO chance on earth of getting a grey foal. It's never been done, never happened, doesn't exist and never will !! Please don't come on here and say you've seen it happen. Yes, a bay can be bred to a bay and that bay offspring bred to a bay and suddenly a black or chestnut could pop up at some point. Yes, that is possible...but not grey. It's not how that gene works! I cringe everytime someone brings up the "grey recessive gene" that does not exist! :(

[Meredith Clark]

Just wanted to point out that neither of those two grays (Our White Lady and Pure White Gold) are gray.

Thanks I know, I was trying to point out that people DO breed for color... whatever color that may be is a moot point.

[dalpal]

So here at my vet school some of us see grey horses and think "oh too bad!" since we have dissected multiple grey horses. All had melanoma, one was older and it was literally everywhere you looked. So, honestly, why don't we breed the grey gene out? Just because people like the look of a grey horse doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me. I don't mean to start a trainwreck but honestly I see the grey gene as something that is a detriment to the horse.

There has been research on grey horses and no one has come to a conclusion as to the exact mechanism on why they get their own type of melanoma. They do know that it's not usually as lethal (and usually takes a very long time to progress) compared to a solid colored horse who gets melanoma.

Is it worth the horse having a form of cancer for the beautiful grey color? Personally I will never own or breed to one - both because of the melanoma and my goodness to keep one clean can sometimes be a hassle! ;)

I think this is absolutely silly (and yes, I have owned FOUR grays in my life/love them)....out of the FOUR...ONE had melonoma on his anus and penis. I bought him with the melonoma and never regretted it, as he was a fabulous schoolmaster. He developed ringbone problems and had to be retired. I gave him to a lady who needed a horse to walk her children around on....as far as I know, he is still going....he was born in 1982. ;)

One of my grays, was born in 1974, and he died in 2004...and not of melonoma...the neocropsy showed that he died of a sudden twist in his small intestine during the night. My vet said that type of twist is almost instant death and he didn't suffer long. But he did not die of Melonoma.

I had a gray arabian who was born in 1988...he is still strong and healthy.

I now own a gray 7 year old mare and I never even think about melonoma and OH MY GOD, she's a gray horse, she's going to die of cancer.

Hell, I have a BAY who had to have a sarcoid removed from his girth area (I didn't own him at the time)..so I guess we should probably breed out bays as well.

_hit happens with horses.....I would bet money that more horses die of colic, laminitis, broken bones, hell even bad homes than they do of melonoma.

[Merle]

You have to remember too that you are at vet school. You are going to be working on cases worth dissecting, or how else are you going to learn? I'm sure it's more beneficial to dissect a sick horse and be able to learn than always doing the healthy ones. So, I'm sure you're going to get all kinds of interesting diseases and problems coming in.

We had a very, very old liver chestnut Quarter Horse that we had to put down due to cancerous lesions and we donated to the local vet school so the students could learn. Does that mean that we should stay away from breeding liver chestnut QH's? :( I'm thinking you're just seeing an excess of them due to the nature of the school.

Just to clarify, the horses we dissected were actually bought at auction specifically for us to dissect, sadly. We don't know the history of them but presumably they were just your "average" grey horses. We, of course, have had some bays and chestnuts too and they do necropsy horses that were euthanized/died because of problems. However the horses I am specifically talking about were your "run of the mill" horses that they bought because they actually HOPED they were normal!! :) It's better to learn from normal anatomy than abnormal, although it was extremely interesting finding abnormal things.

On a sidenote, I have access to most scientific articles since I'm at school so if any of you ever want to access a specific article (and not have to pay for it!) just let me know. I'd be more than happy to send you the pdf. I think this sort of thing is extremely interesting!! I wish someone would do the research on hetero vs homozygous grey rates of melanoma, if foals who are born more grey than others have a higher rate, etc etc.

[dalpal]

Horses that are homozygous gray are more prone to melanomas.
Horses that are homozygous gray are more prone to vitiligo.
Horses that are heterozygous for gray are more likely to have fleabites.

And the one that is kind of related to your post:
Horses that are aa (for agouti) are also more prone to melanomas.

Now that's very interesting....ALL of mine have had Fleabites and only one had the melonomas.

You guys help me with the genetics here....refresh my memory on homozygous vs heterozygous

[RiddleMeThis]

You guys help me with the genetics here....refresh my memory on homozygous vs heterozygous
Homozygous means they have two copies of the gray gene, and heterozygous means they only have one copy of the gray gene.

[dalpal]

I was reading a report that said that all gray/grey horses that don't succumb earlier to other causes will die of melanoma ON THE INTERNAL ORGANS. To all of those who say their grays have no melanoma, how can you tell?

I can't...but I can tell you that it was NOT the cause of my ELDERLY horse's death...and 2 more are now in their 20s.

As someone else pointed out....if most of the grays were dying out at young ages, it would be something to talk about....but quite honestly, I have NEVER in my 20 years of riding, known ANY gray horse (and I've known MANY) die because of melonoma.

[Daventry]

Homozygous means they have two copies of the gray gene, and heterozygous means they only have one copy of the gray gene.

...which means that if a stallion is a homozygous grey, ALL of his foals will also get the grey gene. A heterozygous grey only has a 50% chance of passing the grey gene on to their foal. A heterozygous grey bred to a heterozygous grey means the foal has a 75% chance of getting the grey gene.

[Merle]

The horses who we saw with melanomas throughout internal organs had a few spots under their tail. We never thought it would be as bad as it was once we started opening them up. In one horse it was in every single lymph organ, lungs, liver, randomly in muscles, etc. So I think sometimes you don't know how bad it really is internally until you look inside.

[dalpal]

Homozygous means they have two copies of the gray gene, and heterozygous means they only have one copy of the gray gene.


Help me. :lol: So, there has to be a copy from both the stallion and the mare?

I "think" all of my grays have only had the gray gene on ONE side...most of the time, on the stallion's side.

[jdeboer01]

That's completely false. The grey color gene, just like any other color gene cannot influence how other genetic material is passed on to offspring or that it can "carry" other genetic material along with it. It's impossible! All you are seeing is certain traits being more dominant in some foals. Remember, the mare can have a lot of influence, or lack of influence on the foal as well. Color does NOT carry other traits along with it. Genes pass on traits and nothing can influence that one way or another.

What about Lethal White Overo -- a lethal intestinal disorder linked to color? Or "Lavendar Foal Syndrome"? Also, horses that are homozygous for Silver Dapple almost always have serious vision problems? Just something to think about.. Do we REALLY know that certain genetic traits aren't linked to color?

[scpezold]

I currently have 2 greys and would have more. Sucker for a grey. My 25 yo mare had lump on her shoulder. Turned out to be a sarcoid. Never had any problems with my greys or greys I have known. This was my first experience with a sarcoid and was treated with topical meds and eventually fell off. Never another issue. I too have heard about melanomas in greys. If it is more prominent in greys I can assure you it would not deter me from owning one. Nothing better looking then a grey. Nothing. Did I mention I am a sucker for a grey :lol:

[grayarabpony]

The offspring only needs one G allele to be gray, since it's dominant. If the horse is Gg, that's heterozygous. If it's GG (both parents had to be gray in order for this to happen) the horse is homozygous for gray.

[RiddleMeThis]

Help me. :lol: So, there has to be a copy from both the stallion and the mare? Fro a horse to be homozygous for gray, yes both the sire and the dam have to be gray.

I "think" all of my grays have only had the gray gene on ONE side...most of the time, on the stallion's side.If they only had gray on one side they were heterozygous for gray.

[dalpal]

...which means that if a stallion is a homozygous grey, ALL of his foals will also get the grey gene. A heterozygous grey only has a 50% chance of passing the grey gene on to their foal. A heterozygous grey bred to a heterozygous grey means the foal has a 75% chance of getting the grey gene.


Popping the advil here. :lol:

Here's my gray mare's family tree

Dam..Bay Her Sire's famil tree...Bay, Black, Chestnut
Her Dam's Family Tree..Gray, Chestnut, Dark Gray

Sire...Gray His Sire's family tree...Gray, Chestnut, Gray, Chestnut, Gray,
chestnut

His Dam's family tree...Bay, Chestnut, Black, Bay Chestnut, Bay,
Bay

I'm assuming this means she is HOMOZYGOUS, right?

[RiddleMeThis]

Also, horses that are homozygous for Silver Dapple almost always have serious vision problems?
Im curious where you have heard or seen this. I have seen many homozygous silvers and talked to many owners and breeders of homozygous silvers and not once have I heard anything about vision impairment.

[dalpal]

Fro a horse to be homozygous for gray, yes both the sire and the dam have to be gray.

If they only had gray on one side they were heterozygous for gray.

I just proved myself wrong...I looked at my mare's registration papers....I had no idea that her dam had gray on her side of the family.

[RiddleMeThis]

I'm assuming this means she is HOMOZYGOUS, right?
Nope heterozygous as she would only have ONE copy of the gray gene.

[dalpal]

Nope heterozygous as she would only have ONE copy of the gray gene.

ROFL..I'm so blondely confused. But, she has gray on both sides?? This has become a very interesting/educational thread for me.

[RiddleMeThis]

ROFL..I'm so blondely confused. But, she has gray on both sides?? This has become a very interesting/educational thread for me.They mare herself was bay. Since she was bay and not gray she has no gray gene to give.

[LookinForSpace]

Now you want to be afraid think LIPOMA!!!! The invisible killer!!!!! PatO

Can you explain this statement? Do you mean *lymphoma* (cancer) or *lipoma* (fatty deposit)? In dogs, lipomas are common and rarely cause a problem unless they happen to occur in an area where they interfere with movement or are on a pressure point when the dog sits or lies down. Vets usually say not to worry about a lipoma. Is it a different story in horses???? :confused::eek::confused::confused: (Or were you being facetious?)

[Daventry]

ROFL..I'm so blondely confused. But, she has gray on both sides?? This has become a very interesting/educational thread for me.

Remember, grey is a gene that cannot skip generations. So, if a horse gets the grey gene, they MUST turn grey. If they do not turn grey, they did not get the gene. Your mare's dam was bay, so the dam did not get the grey gene from her dam, which means she has no grey gene to pass on. The only way for a grey to be homozygous is if both the sire and dam were also grey.

[Peggy]

I've known three that died of melanomas. One had little to nothing externally, died in his stall one night and necropsy revealed a ton internally (IIRC, they said the cause of death was that his spleen blew up?). Another (just last week-RIP Casey:cry:) had a ton externally, some of which had caused his sheath area to grow and grow and was euthanized. The third had external ones and then apparently developed an internal one near the pituitary gland (I think--it's been awhile).

Now, I've been around horses a long time, so have known a number of grays that have presumably died of something else. Still, I'd have a hard time convincing myself to buy one. But that's my choice and and I'm not going to condem anyone who chooses to buy a gray horse.

Interesting about the hetero- vs homozygous. I'd never seen anything official on that, but suspected that it might be the case. And, no, I don't know anything WRT that on the above three horses.

[risingstarfarm]

Just wanted to add that I'm also a believer in the link between gray color and jumping ability in some cases!

[Merle]

Can you explain this statement? Do you mean *lymphoma* (cancer) or *lipoma* (fatty deposit)? In dogs, lipomas are common and rarely cause a problem unless they happen to occur in an area where they interfere with movement or are on a pressure point when the dog sits or lies down. Vets usually say not to worry about a lipoma. Is it a different story in horses???? :confused::eek::confused::confused: (Or were you being facetious?)

Lipomas are a cause of colic in the horse. Search for strangulating lipoma and I'm sure you'll have plenty to read about it!

[dalpal]

Remember, grey is a gene that cannot skip generations. So, if a horse gets the grey gene, they MUST turn grey. If they do not turn grey, they did not get the gene. Your mare's dam was bay, so the dam did not get the grey gene from her dam, which means she has no grey gene to pass on. The only way for a grey to be homozygous is if both the sire and dam were also grey.

Ah, I'm loving this...thank you guys for explaining all of this to me.

This mare has had all dark bays and chestnuts....my mare was the ONLY gray that she ever had. I think she had 7 or 8 foals total. Even the other Graf Genius baby (4 years older than my mare) was chestnut.

[Daventry]

Im curious where you have heard or seen this. I have seen many homozygous silvers and talked to many owners and breeders of homozygous silvers and not once have I heard anything about vision impairment.

I've read a few articles on this. Homozygous silvers are more prone to ASD (Anterior Segment Dysgenesis) which is a genetic eye disorder. Heterozygous silvers seem to carry a harmless copy of the gene.

[EventerAJ]

ROFL..I'm so blondely confused. But, she has gray on both sides?? This has become a very interesting/educational thread for me.


"Gray on both sides" doesn't matter if the gray isn't IMMEDIATELY in the pedigree: sire or dam. Grandsire, granddam, or beyond is mostly irrevelant in the gray discussion.

Example:

Parent A: Gray. Heterozygous (Gg)
Parent B: Other color (gg)
Parent C: Gray. Homozygous (GG)

Offspring AxB: 50% chance gray (Gg), 50% chance other. (gg)

Offspring AxC: 100% gray. 75% chance homozygous (GG), 25% chance heterozygous (Gg)

Offspring BxC: 100% gray. 100% heterozygous.

Offspring AxA: 75% chance gray, 25% chance other. 25% chance homozygous gray (GG), 50% heterozygous gray (Gg), 25% other (gg).


Grays can ONLY come from (one or both) gray parents. Homozygous grays MUST have two gray parents. ONE gray parent can only produce a gray that is heterozygous (or other color).


And just to "muddy" the water.....Grays are essentially ANY other color, with the dominant gray gene layered on top. You can have black grays, chestnut grays, bay grays, etc. So gray horses (heterozygous ones anyway) are capable of producing whatever "base" color they possess. This is why you look back into the pedigree, to see what the "base" is. For example, if chestnut ancestors are prominent, it may be carrying the chestnut gene beneath the gray. :)


Here is a pedigree to dissect: Arctic Morning (http://www.pedigreequery.com/arctic+morning). Arctic Morning gets her gray from her dam.

Sire: Carnivalay is bay.
Dam: Morning Jo is gray (gr/roan as called by Jockey Club). Morning Jo gets her gray from her sire.
--Damsire: Wise Exchange is gray... BOTH his parents were gray, so he is *possibly* homozygous. However, Morning Jo is clearly heterozygous because her dam was chestnut.

Following Wise Exchange's gray alllll the way back, you find a common culprit of this whole mess: The Tetrarch. (http://www.members.shaw.ca/wishon-ranch/tetrarch.jpg)

[Daventry]

Ah, I'm loving this...thank you guys for explaining all of this to me.

This mare has had all dark bays and chestnuts....my mare was the ONLY gray that she ever had. I think she had 7 or 8 foals total. Even the other Graf Genius baby (4 years older than my mare) was chestnut.

Remember though, it's not that the dam produced your grey mare, as she had no copy of the grey gene to pass on to her daughter. The grey sire was the one that produced the grey in your mare.

[dalpal]

Remember though, it's not that the dam produced your grey mare, as she had no copy of the grey gene to pass on to her daughter. The grey sire was the one that produced the grey in your mare.

Gotcha...okay.
First one...colt/chestnut LOTS OF CHROME
second one..filly/born blood bay like momma, but did have white hairs in her coat. She had the Hanoverian inspection team stumped...they registered her a BAY ROAN. I had to change her papers when she turned two and had a gray tail. :lol:

He threw the same exact chestnut/chrome with a dark bay mare at the farm..it was a gelding too.

Is there any color/sex correlations as well??????

[RiddleMeThis]

I've read a few articles on this. Homozygous silvers are more prone to ASD (Anterior Segment Dysgenesis) which is a genetic eye disorder. Heterozygous silvers seem to carry a harmless copy of the gene.
Do you know where I could find the articles? I would love to read them.

[Daventry]

Do you know where I could find the articles? I would love to read them.

If you use Google and search for Anterior Segment Dysgenesis, you should be able to come up with lots of literature on it.

[Daventry]

Gotcha...okay.
First one...colt/chestnut LOTS OF CHROME
second one..filly/born blood bay like momma, but did have white hairs in her coat. She had the Hanoverian inspection team stumped...they registered her a BAY ROAN. I had to change her papers when she turned two and had a gray tail. :lol:

He threw the same exact chestnut/chrome with a dark bay mare at the farm..it was a gelding too.

Is there any color/sex correlations as well??????

Roan is the same as grey, one parent must be roan in order to pass it along. Dun, and all three single dilutes (Buckskin, Palomino and Smokey Black) are the same.

Did your blood bay filly have lots of chrome too? I'm betting she was either a Rabicano or Sabino....which is just an expression of white markings along with the horses coat color.

[twofatponies]

Im curious where you have heard or seen this. I have seen many homozygous silvers and talked to many owners and breeders of homozygous silvers and not once have I heard anything about vision impairment.

I think this only applies to the Rocky Mountain Horse or possibly the Missouri Foxtrotter, where there has been overbreeding for that color, without selecting out ones that also carry a vision problem. It might have been introduced by a particular stallion? Sorry, can't recall more than that.

[dalpal]

Roan is the same as grey, one parent must be roan in order to pass it along. Dun, and all three single dilutes (Buckskin, Palomino and Smokey Black) are the same.

Did your blood bay filly have lots of chrome too? I'm betting she was either a Rabicano or Sabino....which is just an expression of white markings along with the horses coat color.


So funny that you mention this. :lol: Graf Genius was out of the Trapper line. I was told that Trapper threw lots of "wierd" colorings.

The THIRD colt that I mentioned was a chestnut, lots of Chrome and had Rabicano markings along his belly and hips....LOTS of white hairs in the coat, but NEVER turned gray.

My filly had lots of white hairs in her coat, no significant white chrome...but had ONE silver leg.

You can see it here on this 3 month old picture

http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd129/grayboomerang/Pets-Diva%20at%202/?action=view&current=be9f.jpg

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Since this went to anecdotal stories, I will add and say yes, I have known a gray horse with a terrible melanoma (Arabian mare). Now, did it kill her? Well it took over her muzzle/mouth and I believe she was put down. So in a round about manner, yes. She was not that old either...early teens if I recall correctly.

Of course the horse I leased that died of cancer was a blood bay with minimal white--but that was some rare internal cancer.

I personally am in the camp that is too lazy to deal with grey (or is it gray...I should go to bed...) and therefore would not purposefully breed for that color. However, if the horse fit what I wanted then I guess I wouldn't care.

[Dazednconfused]

I really have no idea what I am talking about ;) and this is purely anecdotal.... but I was told that horses born black or bay or brown have less chance of the melanomas than the ones born more grayish. :)

Er...except all horses are born some other color before they grey...so that doesn't really make any sense, I'm afraid. ;)

[columbus]

This topic has so many loops it makes my head spin.
On the loop I added... Lipomas are another very common tumor type that are in many horses without regards to color...probably much more common than lethal melanomas. They are fat tumors...not necessarily in or on fat horses. Like a melanoma they can exist on or in a horse causing no problems. When they do cause problems it is usually due to being in the intestinal area and during a roll possibly they are flipped over the intestine and strangulate the gut. They also might re roll and un-wrap the gut. The intestine is hung on a sheet in the abdomen and sheet has strips and globs of fat through out. The melanomas are also found in this sheet as well and a lump of melanoma can do the same thing. If your horse is grey it probably has melanomas externally and or internally. However and horse can have lipomas and it is likely in many older horses especially those easy keepers. Melanomas can grow in the wrong spot and cause a problem. Lipomas isually cause problems only in the intestinal tract. It is not accurate to say melanomas don't cause ANY problem but the horse usually co-exists with the melanomas for a long life. My question for the OP would be...did the greys you autopsied with melanomas die of their melanomas or were they euthanized so you could do your autopsies? PatO

[columbus]

I have tried to observe this one on my own...no statistics because that is MATH...as soon as I say something like homozygous horses grey out faster than heterozygous horses I see one of the foals born white(because they have greyed out en-utero) from a heterozygous mating(grey to non-grey). I have a mare who is likely homozygous grey with two foals, both born chestnut by different chestnut sires who are about the same shade and intensity of red. They are a year apart and the younger is greying out faster with an different greying pattern. The older is a filly and she will dapple slowly with her head whitening first and she has three sisters by the same sire who is chestnut and who are dappling in the same pattern at the same rate. Perhaps the greying "pattern" came from the sire but the gene to grey came from the dam. The younger colt will dapple little and grey out quicker more in the pattern of his mother but not as fast as his mother. His mother does have a lump on the underside of her tail bone since she was 4 but the kids show no signs of lumps yet. They will get tumors...I will worry...they are spectacular athletes and my life is richer for having them. Do I consider color when selecting mates for my mares...definately...because I am afraid of greys...nope...because there is color bias from customers...yup. PatO

[00Jumper]

Example:

Parent A: Gray. Heterozygous (Gg)
Parent B: Other color (gg)
Parent C: Gray. Homozygous (GG)

...

Offspring AxC: 100% gray. 75% chance homozygous (GG), 25% chance heterozygous (Gg)

...

Sorry, but as a bio major I have to step in and correct your math. :winkgrin: All offspring will be grey, 50% will be homozygous, 50% will be heterozygous. GGxGg = GG, Gg, GG, Gg. :D

So gray is dominant to the agouti gene? I sometimes try to figure out my mare's color genotype when I'm bored to try and fantasize about what her eventual foal will look like. It's a bit tough coming from a family of bays! :lol:

[RiddleMeThis]

Sorry, but as a bio major I have to step in and correct your math. :winkgrin: All offspring will be grey, 50% will be homozygous, 50% will be heterozygous. GGxGg = GG, Gg, GG, Gg. :D

So gray is dominant to the agouti gene? I sometimes try to figure out my mare's color genotype when I'm bored to try and fantasize about what her eventual foal will look like. It's a bit tough coming from a family of bays! :lol:
Gray is dominant to everything.

[jdeboer01]

Im curious where you have heard or seen this. I have seen many homozygous silvers and talked to many owners and breeders of homozygous silvers and not once have I heard anything about vision impairment.

The condition is "ASD":

Silver is linked to an eye disorder called ASD (Anterior Segment Dysgenesis). This genetic disease is carried by many silver horses. Heterozygous horses (one silver gene) appear to have no problems associated with ASD, but carry a harmless gene. Some homozygous horses, however, do have vision problems from ASD. To avoid the problem of ASD, many breeders will not breed two silvers together.

And from horseadvice.com:

ASD is not unique to the Rocky Mountain Horse�it occurs in all breeds I have examined that carry the Silver Dapple gene�most of those that have a chocolate color coat with or without dappling. This includes the Shetland Pony, Miniature breeds, Rocky Mountain, Kentucky Mountain Saddle, Mountain Pleasure, Morgan, Bashkir-Curly, Naraganssett Pacer, and Haflinger. The author�s statement that the disease is most prevalent in the Rocky Mountain Horse breed is probably not accurate. The disease is probably just as prevalent in some of the other aforementioned breeds. It has only been studied extensively in Rocky Mountain Horses because the breed Association recognized it and was proactive to determine whether the abnormality was a severe defect.

David T. Ramsey, DVM
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Ophthalmologists
Assistant Professor

[Bentley]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDE Driver
I really have no idea what I am talking about and this is purely anecdotal.... but I was told that horses born black or bay or brown have less chance of the melanomas than the ones born more grayish.

Er...except all horses are born some other color before they grey...so that doesn't really make any sense, I'm afraid. ;)

I get what CDE Driver was trying to say. I think what he/she means by "more grayish" isn't that they didn't have a base coat, just that they lost that base coat faster than some of their counterparts. I know of one that was virtually a roan chestnut before his weaning, and another 3yr old that only had remnants of grey on his knees with the rest already being white grey.

And I've noticed that correlation too, anecdotally of course. Some of the heterozygous grey's that I've known tend to 'grey out' slower than the homozygous counterparts. Now this is anecdotal, and I'm only basing it off of ones that I *think* might have been homozygous b/c they had two grey parents. They still may not have been GG technically, but they were that absolute white grey, not a flea bite in sight, which seems to be a bit of a sign of a homozygous grey.

Its these ones that I've known that 'grey out' quickly, or become that lovely, but oh so hard to clean white grey are also the ones that I've seen with melanomas around their genitals, mouths and throats. Other ones, like my mare, who was born dark bay, went almost solid black at 2 is still quite darkly dappled at rising 9, a guaranteed heterozygous, and is also going slowly fleabitten, don't seem to have the same problem (knocking on wood of course!).

No absolute proof by any stretch, and for some I'm basing their quick greying off of photo evidence of their younger years since I knew them later in their lives, but it does seem to have some correlation.

[2enduraceriders]

I have never had one with problems.
Ours have lived to 39, 27, and 24.

[Pronzini]

As an aside and in furtherance to the dominant gray discussion, there is a semi famous conundrum in TB breeding regarding a gray's breeding. In 1979, in the middle of Steve Cauthen's slumps to end all slumps, Affirmed lost 2 races in a row to relatively obscure runners, Radar Ahead and Little Reb. Little Reb was a bay horse by Reb's Policy out of Tulita by Tumollo.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/little+reb

Little Reb's dam was a roan.

Since neither of her parents was a registered gray or roan and you can only get a gray from a gray, where did she actually come from?

One of those pre DNA mysteries that I remember because Bloodhorse actually did an article on it after her son made it big. I don't recall the Jockey Club responding to their inquiry.

It appears that sometimes you have to take those pre DNA pedigree charts with a grain of salt.

As for the OP's original question, I wouldn't want to even contemplate a horse world that never saw Mahmoud, or Native Dancer or Spectacular Bid or The Tetrarch. Good breeders breed good horses and let the color chips fall where they may--and some even create legends.

[City Ponies]

I am one on the camp that WOULD breed for grey. Maybe it's because I can only afford to breed once every few years, so color is a major factor when choosing a stallion. If I had two identical studs in quality for my mare, one bay/chestnut and the other black/grey, I'd choose the black or grey. I know there are no guarantees, but my odds are better. I LOVE grey horses, always wanted a little white pony growing up, never got one. Eventually I'd love to get my future show horse, the next one, to be grey. Of course those darn chestnuts and bays pop up and I just can't refuse, I guess it's true you don't ride color :)

On the topic of melanoma, my 30 yr old QH we assumed died from it. He had a few (like 3) exterior bumps, lost weight one winter and no matter what we could never put it back on him, always anemic despite injections and supplements. Finally we put him down, no necropsy, but 3 different vets couldn't find any other possibilities after 30 or so neuro and blood tests, so we all just figured it was. He was blood bay.

Also saw 2 palomino Appendix's riddled with internal melanoma, died at age 12. Both had necropsy and found tumors lining the intestinal wall. A friend had told me about her horse, a 14 yr old dark bay OTTB, that died of it. However, of all the greys I've known none have suffered other than some exterior bumps and all lived to old age. So I'm happily searching for a nice grey!

[Waterwitch]

Little Reb's dam was a roan.

Since neither of her parents was a registered gray or roan and you can only get a gray from a gray, where did she actually come from?

Well since there is no true roan in the TB breed (and if we assume this pedigree to be accurate, which seeing that some of the color information is curiously missing and that anyone can edit this site we can't) she would have been genetically grey, and likely got it from a grey sire even though his color isn't listed on pedigree query. He goes back to Tetrarch through his dam, who even though HER color is also not listed could have been grey.

ETA: Some of the missing colors are there on allbreedpedigree.com - so if those are accurate, the other possibility would be sabino roans registered as roan/grey. Either way we are looking at a likely case of misregistration somewhere along the way.

[KimPeterson]

I don't know if this means anything but the old grey stallion I use to have Cavaleer (now Capitaan) was melanoma free the last time I saw him at 22 and he is about 24 or 25 now and still breeding sound - leg sound - alive and welll... The TB gelding I use to own that was grey died of colic at 23 but long before any melanoma hurt him (he did have lumps). A good friend had a mare with them that died at about 18...so I think it really depends on teh horse and I don't think they all get them or at least if my stallion had them they where not visable and not effecting him...do you think some have stronger resistance than others?

[City Ponies]

Well since there is no true roan in the TB breed (and if we assume this pedigree to be accurate, which seeing that some of the color information is curiously missing and that anyone can edit this site we can't) she would have been genetically grey, and likely got it from a grey sire even though his color isn't listed on pedigree query. He goes back to Tetrarch through his dam, who even though HER color is also not listed could have been grey.

ETA: Some of the missing colors are there on allbreedpedigree.com - so if those are accurate, the other possibility would be sabino roans registered as roan/grey. Either way we are looking at a likely case of misregistration somewhere along the way.

Is it not possible that with the Tetrarch line some rabicano got in there? Perhaps a bay with some roaning, and at time of registration they had assumed she would go grey all the way and was just late shedding. I know it's been fairly recent since they've changed over the "roan" classification to grey. And back then color variations were well... underclassified.

[Pronzini]

Well since there is no true roan in the TB breed (and if we assume this pedigree to be accurate, which seeing that some of the color information is curiously missing and that anyone can edit this site we can't) she would have been genetically grey, and likely got it from a grey sire even though his color isn't listed on pedigree query. He goes back to Tetrarch through his dam, who even though HER color is also not listed could have been grey.

ETA: Some of the missing colors are there on allbreedpedigree.com - so if those are accurate, the other possibility would be sabino roans registered as roan/grey. Either way we are looking at a likely case of misregistration somewhere along the way.

In my mind's eye, I still remember the Bloodhorse article (some wag actually printed it on gray paper) so I imagine they researched it before they ran it. I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure Tumollo was a brown horse and Khalita was chestnut so it is virtually impossible that that pedigree was correct.

At about the same time, someone filed a court case disputing the parentage of a Cornish Prince colt that they purchased. The colt was chestnut and Cornish Prince was a dominant bay who never sired another registered chestnut. I don't recall the result or if the Jockey Club pulled the papers

DNA arrived just in time. :)

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Well since there is no true roan in the TB breed (and if we assume this pedigree to be accurate, which seeing that some of the color information is curiously missing and that anyone can edit this site we can't) she would have been genetically grey, and likely got it from a grey sire even though his color isn't listed on pedigree query. He goes back to Tetrarch through his dam, who even though HER color is also not listed could have been grey.

ETA: Some of the missing colors are there on allbreedpedigree.com - so if those are accurate, the other possibility would be sabino roans registered as roan/grey. Either way we are looking at a likely case of misregistration somewhere along the way.

A bit OT, but My JC TB chestnut has a great deal of "roan" in his coat, but he is absolutely not grey by any means. I didn't know this about it being an impossibility. I guess he isn't a "true" roan--it isn't as prevalant as a QH roan for instance, but nonetheless this thread has been very interesting from a genetics standpoint!

[fordtraktor]

My grey TB has had tail/anus melanomas since he was 5. He is 19 and has a few more. You never know what is inside, but he suffers a lot more from his ringbone that he ever has from his melanomas.

I would buy another grey in a heartbeat if it happened to be the nicest horse I looked at. So many things can go wrong with a horse in the space of a few minutes that I have stopped worrying about maybe-in-15-years types of problems.

[Pronzini]

Is it not possible that with the Tetrarch line some rabicano got in there? Perhaps a bay with some roaning, and at time of registration they had assumed she would go grey all the way and was just late shedding. I know it's been fairly recent since they've changed over the "roan" classification to grey. And back then color variations were well... underclassified.

I guess anything is possible but it probably more likely that there is just dodgy parentage which was more common than you would think before cameras in the breeding sheds and DNA. When I was a kid, it was fairly common to see a TB pedigree like this "By Stallion A or Stallion B out of mare C" and the one the breeder thought was the sire based on breeding date was listed first. And that doesn't even account for accidental fence jumping, negligently switched horses or halters and even pure larceny. To this day, there is a raging debate in certain Kentucky circles as to who actually sired Graustark. Ribot is the official sire but Graustark really resembles Swaps who was also a stallion at Darby Dan at that time.

Anyway to keep it on the OP's topic of grays, the nice thing is that grays only come from grays so if a gray is born to two non gray parents, something's not right. Similarly, a breeder can control whether he or she gets a gray just by stallion and mare selection--it can't sneak up on you like upright pasterns or offset knees.

[Portia]

I would buy another grey in a heartbeat if it happened to be the nicest horse I looked at. So many things can go wrong with a horse in the space of a few minutes that I have stopped worrying about maybe-in-15-years types of problems.
Isn't that the truth! :yes:

[Iron Horse Farm]

I have had 4. One I bred (bay mare gray stallion) and three I bought.

Oldest TB mare was starting to have some melanomas when I sold her in foal at about 14. My gelding never had one and the big gray TB mare that I bought directly off the track at age three has none at 10. BTW, she was "pink" when I bought her. Her JC papers said ROAN, but she was white by 5. :)

[Mozart]

I'm of two minds on this. I read an article in a horse mag once (do I remember where?...no..) that an Australian researcher (a vet I believe) has determined that horses are the only animals exhibiting this coat colour (other than ageing related) and for that and a number of other reasons is proposing that grey be considered a "disease of the coat". Not sure how I feel about that but I think a grey horse would have to be pretty special for me to buy it.

Although I secretly swoon over a gorgeous grey (and I did own one at one point) I hate seeing stained greys and the thought of all that maintenance makes my head spin. I am a plain bay kind of girl now.

I also do not take the melanoma risk lightly. Yes, so much else can go wrong with horses but for that very reason...why take on yet another risk?

That said, I would not throw a big jumping grey Holsteiner out of my barn.....did I mention I'm of two minds? lol.

[vineyridge]

There are a lot of suppositions in the TB Stud Book about parentage. A couple of the major ones that have caused controversy, going way back in time, that would cause earthquakes if a different sire could be proved, are 1) Galopin being by The Flying Dutchman, not Vedette; and the foundation sire Eclipse being by Shakespeare, not Marske.

"Fence jumping" in the TB world isn't as uncommon as one would think. For centuries, all the stud books had to go on was the breeder's word. I'm not even going to raise Milkie again because the Palomino folks get so bent out of shape.

In the TB world, all grays trace back to a single sire in the 1840's name Master Robert. Because of the prevalence of Native Dancer and Mahmoud there are more and more TB grays. Since it is dominant, there is a chance that in the distant future, all TBs will be gray.

Tesio thought gray was a disease in horses and refused to breed to them.

More than just a few of the early Oriental horses in the GSB were gray. Does anyone know if gray is a color that is found in horses other than those that trace back to Barbs and Arabs?

[Pronzini]

In the TB world, all grays trace back to a single sire in the 1840's name Master Robert. Because of the prevalence of Native Dancer and Mahmoud there are more and more TB grays. Since it is dominant, there is a chance that in the distant future, all TBs will be gray.



Gray may never have another opportunity like Native Dancer--and gray blew it :)

His most influential sons like Raise A Native, Atan and Dan Cupid were chestnuts.

His most influential daughter Natalma was a bay.

His most influential gray son was Dancer's Image whose stallion career was marginalized by scandal. Beyond that, off the top of my head, I remember grays like Restless Native, Native Charger, grandsons like Icecapade (whose best and most influential son Wild Again was a dark bay) who were all nice horses but not breed changing.

The most influential gray TB today is probably Unbridled's Song who gets his color from Caro, a Grey Sovereign grandson, but if he keeps siring stallions like Buddha his long term influence on the breed will be self limiting.

TBs aren't going all gray any time soon ;)

[Ladybug Hill]

I am not sure why folks get so emotional when we just discuss facts. If someone doing research shows that a horse can have melanomas internally with no sign externally, then what is the point of the anecdotal stories about "my grey horse never had melanoma and lived to be 25".

To me it seems irresponsible to ignore the possible health issues with any genetic trait. Even if these health issues are often benign. Yes, we should probably deal with some of the more life/health/fertility threatening ones effectively first.

I personally am not a fan of grey, both for grooming and health issues. I hate the molting of the young grey horses--makes it very difficult to groom for sales pictures without full body clipping--which I am not apt to do lightly.

Having said that, I have bred to grey stallions and have owned a grey mare that I did breed. But I have eliminated those colors from my own herd now. I do drool over an occasional grey stallion and would use them if it just made sense in regards to all other traits. I would certainly buy a grey for riding purposes if it were a good match for me.

As far as the Milkie issue, I do breed an occasional Milkie bred horse and I would not get emotional over the question of pedigree. He did have a slightly different body type also so perhaps he was a crossbred. However, I love the color so glad he is in the studbook! :D

[Vesper Sparrow]

[QUOTE=Pronzini;3939426]The most influential gray TB today is probably Unbridled's Song who gets his color from Caro, a Grey Sovereign grandson, but if he keeps siring stallions like Buddha his long term influence on the breed will be self limiting.
QUOTE]

Just curious--what have you got against Buddha for sport horses? Any concrete experience?

[grayarabpony]

I can't see all TBs being gray one day either. Native Dancer's most prolific descedant, Northern Dancer, was bay, and most of the top runners have been bay or chesnut.

[Tasker]

Having grey horses and competing with them is my way of supporting several companies - Quik Silver, Wonder Blue, etc. :lol:

What would those companies do without the financial boost of grey horse owners cleaning their beasties up on a regular basis??? :winkgrin:

[Pronzini]

[quote=Pronzini;3939426]The most influential gray TB today is probably Unbridled's Song who gets his color from Caro, a Grey Sovereign grandson, but if he keeps siring stallions like Buddha his long term influence on the breed will be self limiting.
QUOTE]

Just curious--what have you got against Buddha for sport horses? Any concrete experience?

I'm talking from my perspective as a racehorse breeder who has watched Buddha's star flame out and fall faster than any stallion I can think of in the last three years. The reason I suspect a bunch may be available for the sporthorse market is that as a group they made terrible racehorses. But I can't imagine too many people have real concrete experience in the sporthorse because he's still pretty young.

As far as overall influence on the TB breed (like changing the dominant breed color from bay to gray as was alluded), Buddha missed his chance. He doesn't breed over 100 mares a year any more like in his hype days and he probably never will again. IMO, even if he is the next Furioso, it just won't matter as far as the whole TB genome is concerned.

[Vesper Sparrow]

[QUOTE=Pronzini;3940139][quote=Vesper Sparrow;3939932]

I'm talking from my perspective as a racehorse breeder who has watched Buddha's star flame out and fall faster than any stallion I can think of in the last three years. The reason I suspect a bunch may be available for the sporthorse market is that as a group they made terrible racehorses. But I can't imagine too many people have real concrete experience in the sporthorse because he's still pretty young.

QUOTE]

Thanks! I have a 2005 version who looks like he might be not a bad dressage horse--it's too early to tell--but I agree that I couldn't imagine him ever making it as a racehorse. He's way too slow and a big wuss as far as physical toughness is concerned. But he's got a great temperament for a riding horse.

[LookinForSpace]

Lipomas are a cause of colic in the horse. Search for strangulating lipoma and I'm sure you'll have plenty to read about it!

Ah, so it IS a different story in horses, that explains it. Dogs don't colic and I've never heard of strangulating lipomas as a cause of bloat (though bloat is generally unexplained...:eek::no:) or other intestinal complication.

... Lipomas are another very common tumor type that are in many horses without regards to color...probably much more common than lethal melanomas. They are fat tumors...not necessarily in or on fat horses. Like a melanoma they can exist on or in a horse causing no problems. When they do cause problems it is usually due to being in the intestinal area and during a roll possibly they are flipped over the intestine and strangulate the gut. They also might re roll and un-wrap the gut. (SNIP)
However and horse can have lipomas and it is likely in many older horses especially those easy keepers. Melanomas can grow in the wrong spot and cause a problem. Lipomas isually cause problems only in the intestinal tract.

Vet recommend leaving lipomas alone in dogs unless they interfere with movement, sitting or lying down, or other normal activity. They don't tend to cause problems internally, and some breeds are more prone to them than others (yep, the *easy-keepers/chowhounds*).

Thanks for the clarifications. :cool:

[imapepper]

.

I don't buy because of color. I buy because of jump and canter :D And I keep ending up with greys :rolleyes: Go figure. If I were breeding for color, they would all be shades of bay :) with very little chrome. I don't even like greys. The constant manure stains drive me nuts. But I own 2 grey horses because they jump really cute and the top 2 on my list to breed my grey mare to are grey. Because....you guessed it....they jump really well :winkgrin: I have one on my list that happens to be dark brown/black but I would be willing to bet I will get a grey from this mare so it really doesn't matter

[3Dogs]

imapepper, agree with you - especially as noted that the Holsteiner lines, representing some of the really great jumpers - are so infused with "greys" :D

but I also, like you, am partial to those bays with minimal chrome :yes:

[CBoylen]

I'll pick a grey over any other color if given half a chance. I certainly don't shop by color, but if I come across a nice grey when I'm looking, that's probably going to be the one I end up buying. They're just more appealing to me.
I'm always much happier when the homebreds come out that color too :).
I've never seen health problems related to being grey bother a show horse, and I've seen a heck of a lot of extremely competitive grey show horses.

[PineTreeFarm]

I'm a sucker for a nice grey horse.
Yes, it does take more time to clean them up but they look so neat when clean.

I've never had a horse with a health problem specific to being grey. Maybe I'm just lucky.

I have a young horse who has a grey full brother. I was sort of disappointed that my horse isn't grey. I keep looking for grey hairs but he's three so I guess I can give up on that now.

[DLee]

I am wondering about the ASD (eye issue) in the silver gene, is the silver gene in a wild bay? Because I have a wild bay 3yo, and I have occasionally wondered lately about her vision (or lack of maturity:lol:).

[RiddleMeThis]

I am wondering about the ASD (eye issue) in the silver gene, is the silver gene in a wild bay?Nope silver is a completely different gene than Wild Bay. Id love to see a picture of your wild bay.

[Portia]

To the OP, who somewhere along the line in here asked for names of grey horses who have done well as performance horses. I don't know about dressage or racing or eventing, but for the jumpers, here is a partial list (many of whom, but not all, are stallions and most of whom are related one way or another).

Capitol I
Cassini I
Cassini II
Cumano
Corrado I
Corland
Concorde
Clinton (by Corrado)
Cornet Obolensky (2008 Olympic horse, by Clinton)
Dobel's Cento (another Captol I)
Larino
Carthago Z (another Capitol I)
Gotthard (the top of the other line of grey jumpers)
Prinz Gaylord (his grey came from Goldberg, who was by Gotthard)

Others, from top 50 on the current WBFSH jumper rankings:
Redefin (gelding by Larino)
Corlato (mare by Corofino)
Cedric (gelding)
Silvana (mare by Corland)

I mixed the two lines of grey jumpers when I twice bred the REAL Portia, who got her grey from her Prinz Gaylord dam, to the young grey jumper stallion Torino, who gets his grey from his Cassini I dam. I bought her as a 2 year old not because of color, but because of her breeding and jump potential. I bred her to Torino not because of color, but because I really liked his Heartbreaker/Cassini breeding. I got two grey foals, one born bay, the other born chestnut, and I love them both -- not because of their color, but because they're both sweet kids who look like they'll have their mom and dad's jump along with their color. :)

[DLee]

Nope silver is a completely different gene than Wild Bay. Id love to see a picture of your wild bay.


Here she is last summer. Bonnie (http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f62/dianad1/?action=view&current=015.jpg)

I'm glad to hear about the gene!

[RiddleMeThis]

Here she is last summer. Bonnie (http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f62/dianad1/?action=view&current=015.jpg)

I'm glad to hear about the gene!
Shes awesome! Do you know her bloodlines?

[Ghazzu]

So here at my vet school some of us see grey horses and think "oh too bad!" since we have dissected multiple grey horses. All had melanoma, one was older and it was literally everywhere you looked. ;)

One of my greys died at the age of 20 of eosinophilic infiltration of his GI tract.

Another died at age 18 of a fractured P-1.

Currently the 21 year old grey mare looks fine.

And there's an 11 year old mare who looks just fine, and her 7 year old son...

[Waterwitch]

To the OP, who somewhere along the line in here asked for names of grey horses who have done well as performance horses.

Don't forget Gem Twist, Cruising, Murphy Himself, Courageous Comet...

[Beezer]

Psst, Portia ... your WB bias is showing! :winkgrin: :lol: :winkgrin:

I'll meet your list ;) and add some TBs off the top of my curly little head. For jumpers: Bonne Nuit and his line, not the least of whom were Good Twist and Gem Twist; hunters, Catch on Fire (another Bonne Nuit horse), Diamond Bracelet and all the lovely gray TB hunters I rode and/or loved as a kid ;) ; for eventing: Loyal Pal; for racing (and here the list is endless and historic): The Tetrarch, Mahmoud, Native Dancer, Promised Land, Lady's Secret, Silver Charm, Winning Colors, Icecapade, Free House, Runaway Groom, Great Lady M, Spectacular Bid, Skip Away, Caro, Unbridled Song, Tapit, Smoke Glacken ... I could keep going, but y'all probably don't want me to. :p

Put me in the camp that tends to like a little flash. While there's no doubt that The Original Sainted Beezer was a horse in about as plain bay wrapper as you could get and another wonderful hunter of mine was a cool dappled liver chestnut with zippo white, the rest of my herd over the years has been a pretty loudly colored set, including grays. Now, two of the grays DID have melonomas and one had to be put down in his mid-20s because of them, but that wouldn't stop me from owning another gray if everything else was right about the horse. :)

[DLee]

Shes awesome! Do you know her bloodlines?

Thank you! I think we might have discussed her last spring when I was thinking about buying her and I had never heard of a 'wild bay'.

I kinda sorta know her bloodlines. :lol: She is out of a TB mare that I have no idea the bloodlines of but here is a picture (http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f62/dianad1/?action=view&current=IMG_4419.jpg) of baby Bonnie and her mama.
Her sire is Lyric of the Isles, out of a TB and by O'Leary's Irish Diamond. Here he is, Lyric (http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f62/dianad1/?action=view&current=LyricoftheIsles.jpg)
, he is now gelded and I don't know if he is grey or not. O'Leary's Irish Diamond is grey.

[Lulu]

I understand that grey horses are prone to melanoma because they have more melanin in their skin... but I don't quite understand why that is. Does anyone have any insight into that? Do horses of any other color have darker skin too?

[3Dogs]

I forgot to post pictures of my grey TB - a NZ TB I got from Butch and Lou Thomas -he was something! I wish I knew his bloodlines - 17.1 hands-

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g189/raggedgarden/Maxdoeseq.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g189/raggedgarden/DontLookBackFarm004.jpg

what a wonderful horse he was!!!!!!

[DLee]

And GORGEOUS, 3Dogs!!!

[jackalini]

Horses that are homozygous gray are more prone to melanomas.
Horses that are homozygous gray are more prone to vitiligo.
Horses that are heterozygous for gray are more likely to have fleabites.

And the one that is kind of related to your post:
Horses that are aa (for agouti) are also more prone to melanomas.

Had a heterozygous gray (with flea bites) that developed terrible melanomas, leading me to put him down at 14. Guess we were unlucky. :(

Having said that, I would buy another gray again if it was the horse I liked the best. Even if they do occassionally look like pintos. :winkgrin:

[buschkn]

I actually don't care for greys personally. I LOOOVE a dark steel dapple grey, but most greys turn white fairly quickly or without that steely phase so I am not really drawn to them. Harder to keep clean, the white hairs seem to stick to everything more than the dark hairs (why IS that? just had this talk w/a friend about her grey), and I love flashy markings, so that is lost too.

That said, one of my colts is grey and adorable, and of the 4 stallions I am breeding to this year, THREE are grey!! Why? Because I don't breed for color. A huge number of the top jumping lines consist primarily of greys, as someone pointed out. I hope for solid colors with some chrome, but would just be happy with healthy babies that possess their parent's abilities. :) Grey or no.

[Outyougo]

Remembering the adage A good horse comes in any color.

Over my horse life (50 years) i have had a few grey horses. My husband and I kept one from 14 years to the end at 28 years yes we believe it was grey horse cancer. that did not stop me from buying one a few years ago.

Spud ( from 14 to 28) was a wonderful person. He started life as a 4H horse did saddle set and trail before we bought him--we got him back when the "killer market" would not accept grey horses (here in Oregon) he was wonderful did every thing we eve asked him to do Hunted with a drag hunt ran low level point to point races. went to the beach jumped around novice eventing (hey he was 14 when we started jumping him give a man a break) He lives a few years in full retirement then lost that sparkle in his eye so now he lives under an apple tree.

I have long ago lost count of the horses I have owned but one liver chestnut pony, a bay TB who took me around Rolex and a buckskin pony cross rate top notch.

While I love a PPB (Plain Paper Bay) I don't pass on a grey for fear of a few "warts" or a bit more grooming. None of us are laving the planet alive.

My least fav chestnut with blaze and multiple stockings flash gone weedy!

[Portia]

You're right, Beezer -- I do have WB bias, but mostly because I've read more about WB breeding than other breeds. :)

I forgot about one of the greatest grey jumpers -- Milton!

And of course, a great grey hunter -- Rox Dene. :)

[silver2]

Interesting- in Ireland there is a large percentage of gray horses, many of whom are Connemaras that often live into their 30s and you hear about melanomas much less often than you do in the US.

Of course there is no sunshine in Ireland ;) perhaps that's why?

[Equilibrium]

Interesting- in Ireland there is a large percentage of gray horses, many of whom are Connemaras that often live into their 30s and you hear about melanomas much less often than you do in the US.

Of course there is no sunshine in Ireland ;) perhaps that's why?


Yeah, that's it alright! The last 2 summers have been void of all sunshine and warmth so a good couple of years for grey horses!

My friend has a Sea Crest mare who is now 24 I believe. She doesn't have any issues and that mare is very very rarely inside and has never had a rug on in her life. And my SIL has a 30 yo grey pony who also gets no special treatment and she's happy as can be! They have an extra gene for toughness over here called the "chances are we will never be pampered gene"!:D I think it then becomes recessive when they move to America for a life of pampering!

Terri

[showjumpers66]

The majority of grey Holsteiners (jumpers of any registry with Holsteiner influence for that matter) come from the Anglo Arab, Ramzes. I added additional stallions to your list. It shows that the grey is coming from primarily four stallions, Ramzes (Anglo Arab), Manometer (Thoroughbred), and Amurath I/II (Shagya Arab). Inschallah (Anglo Arab), is seen frequently in other registries. Pretty amazing to see the influence!

Capitol I - 2x Ramzes
Cassini I - (son of Capitol I)
Cassini II - (son of Capitol I)
Carolus I - 3 x Ramzes (son of Capitol I)
Cumano - (son of Cassini I)
Corrado I - (dam is by Capitol I)
Corland - grey from motherline with ties to Ramzes, Manometer xx, and Amurath II
Concorde - I don't know a grey Concorde
Clinton - (son of Corrado I)
Clinton - (son of Carolus I)
Cornet Obolensky - (son of Clinton)
Dobel's Cento - (son of Captol I)
Larino - motherline goes back to Ramzes in 6th generation
Carthago Z - (son of Capitol I)
Gotthard - color comes from Amurath I
Prinz Gaylord - (great-grandson of Gotthard)
Lansing - Ramzes, Amurath II x 2, Amurath I (pretty interesting to see him go back to the brothers Amurath I & II 3x)
Calido I - by Cantus and dam to Ramzes
Calido II - by Cantus and dam to Ramzes
Clearway - (son of Capitol I)
Ladas - dam by Cascavelle and second dam to Ramzes
Cantus - Ramzes, Amurath II, Amurath I
Cascavelle - (son of Cantus)
Calato - (son of Capitol I)
Cassiano - (son of Cassini I)
Cardento - (son of Capitol I)
Champion du Lys -(dam sired by grey Thoroughbred, Largny)
Silverstone - (son of Champion du Lys, dam sired by Carthago, second dam to Gotthard)
Mr. Blue - (dam to Inschallah)
Zirocco Blue - (son of Mr. Blue)
Oldenburg/Imperial - (son of Inschallah)
Sir Caletto - (motherline to Amurath II & Jason (Anglo Arab))
Caracas - (motherline to Inczydent (Anglo Arab) & Amurath II)

[Kyzteke]

Haven't read all the posts, so sorry if this or something like it has already been posted, but I found it interesting:

http://archaeology.about.com/b/2008/07/20/white-horses-and-genetics.htm

So basically, since the "fashion" was for gray (white) horses, Man created this problem. It never fails to amaze me what "fashion" does to animals, and the repercussions are so long-lasting.

[Mozart]

Don't forget Gem Twist, Cruising, Murphy Himself, Courageous Comet...

Watermill Stream, Stanwick Ghost and MARIUS!!! :)

[vineyridge]

Ramzes with by the gray TB Rittersporn, a scion of Dr. Birdsall's French Grey Line from Le Sancy, and out of a gray Shagya mare with mostly gray on both sides. The chances are very good that he was homozygous for gray.

Did he only throw gray offspring?

Manometer gets his gray from the dam side and that also goes back to the French Grey Line.

According to the colors listed on Allbreed Pedigree, there is no way that Inschallah should have been gray. His sire was gray from his dam, but both HER parents are listed as Chestnut. Of course, they could have been registered before their chestnut turned gray.

Just looked at allbreed for Capitol, and there is no way that Folia could have been bay. She was by a gray, out of a gray, and her sire Maximus was by a gray out of a gray. Wouldn't he have had to have been homozygous for gray?

[tri]

I haven't read this whole thread but my main breeding mare is in her teens and is gray and competed in the big ring in jumpers. Other than a sniffle, she hasn't been sick a day in her life, is smart, easy keeper and gives me fabulous jumper foals, two of which are also greying, one not. The oldest, a chestnut going grey mare, is making her debut in the jumper ring with lots of promise and maybe even more athletic than her mom.

[Waterwitch]

Just looked at allbreed for Capitol, and there is no way that Folia could have been bay. She was by a gray, out of a gray, and her sire Maximus was by a gray out of a gray. Wouldn't he have had to have been homozygous for gray?

If you breed two heterozygous greys you have a 25% chance of getting a non grey.

[Kyzteke]

According to the colors listed on Allbreed Pedigree, there is no way that Inschallah should have been gray. His sire was gray from his dam, but both HER parents are listed as Chestnut. Of course, they could have been registered before their chestnut turned gray.


Allbreed is either wrong or something because Inschallah was gray. I've seen several photos of him. THis is the one I've seen most often:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/GREAT_STALLIONS/inschallah/inschallah.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/GREAT_STALLIONS/inschallah/inschallah.html&usg=__lpcykyAQj6mJRW2qhCc563Nc6PU=&h=267&w=387&sz=24&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=tL2nx5fH8Kx1EM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3DInschallah%2BStallion%26gbv%3D2%26hl% 3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG

He is the sire of Ideal (also gray) and there might be a photo of him their website. Also the damsire of Rohdiamant & Royal Diamond. Royal Diamond is gray, Rohdiamant bay.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by vineyridge http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3941997#post3941997)
According to the colors listed on Allbreed Pedigree, there is no way that Inschallah should have been gray. His sire was gray from his dam, but both HER parents are listed as Chestnut. Of course, they could have been registered before their chestnut turned gray.
Inshallah's sire, Isreal, was gray, so yes, there was a 50% chance that he would be gray, and he was, and is listed as gray there.

[grayarabpony]

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/inschallah2. La Neuvaine's color must be listed incorrectly.

Abendfrieden was bay, so Manometer was heterozygous. Since Maximus was out of a gray mare, he got the G from the dam and g from Manometer and would also be heterozygous for gray. Therefore Folia could be bay.

[SGray]

.....So basically, since the "fashion" was for gray (white) horses, Man created this problem. It never fails to amaze me what "fashion" does to animals, and the repercussions are so long-lasting.

my first horse (grey) died at age 28 (non-melanoma related)

my second horse (bay) I lost track of

my third horse (grey) died at 30+ (possibly melanoma related) (and she was fat and happy until the day she was stricken and I had her put down)

my fourth horse (bay) died at age 15 due to vet. errors (malpractice really)

my fifth horse (grey) is doing fine

my sixth horse (grey) is 23 and doing fine

so generally my greys have had nice long lives

with or without melanomas, we all die of something eventually

read through the death notices in the Chron. and elsewhere and I think you'll find dozens of causes (colic, broken bones, copd, poisoning, etc) more prevalent than melanoma and much younger ages in general for those cases

[Beezer]

Portia, given your mare and her beautiful babies, it's obvious that your time learning WB bloodlines has been well spent. :) I was just funning you, and at the same time trying to point out to the OP that grays have long been a mainstay of top TB breeding, so the color ain't going anywhere soon.

[cloudyandcallie]

How old is Ideal, the grey Oldenburg? He still looks pretty good in his ads.

I once boarded where the BO had 2 greyTB mares she raised from foals, one she put down at 25 due to infirmities of old age, and that mare's daughter, who had melanomas on her anus and died with me holding her head at the age of 29 from an unspecified illness.

I have a grey and white (50/50)WB who was dappled and is now fleabitten and white. Damn was grey, sire was bay and white pinto. I'm concerned about both melanomas and skin cancer, since 50% of him, including his big rump, sunburns. He's hetrozygous, and stays inside during the day in summer. He has no melanomas and no other skin problems.
I suspect that some greys pass on the "melanoma" gene like some humans pass on the "cancer genes" for different forms of cancer. I'd be interested in someone doing research on that concept.

[SilverSpringFarm]

I think this only applies to the Rocky Mountain Horse or possibly the Missouri Foxtrotter, where there has been overbreeding for that color, without selecting out ones that also carry a vision problem. It might have been introduced by a particular stallion? Sorry, can't recall more than that.

This is partially true. ASD can happen to any horse of any color. It also occurs in other animals, humans included.

At this point they don't know if the prevalance of ASD in Rockies and Foxtrotters is due to Silver or due to inbreeding for that particular color. There haven't been enough studies done to prove it either way.

[Kyzteke]

my first horse (grey) died at age 28 (non-melanoma related)

my second horse (bay) I lost track of

my third horse (grey) died at 30+ (possibly melanoma related) (and she was fat and happy until the day she was stricken and I had her put down)

my fourth horse (bay) died at age 15 due to vet. errors (malpractice really)

my fifth horse (grey) is doing fine

my sixth horse (grey) is 23 and doing fine

so generally my greys have had nice long lives

with or without melanomas, we all die of something eventually

read through the death notices in the Chron. and elsewhere and I think you'll find dozens of causes (colic, broken bones, copd, poisoning, etc) more prevalent than melanoma and much younger ages in general for those cases

The point is not that all gray's die young. In fact, my favorite mare's sire was grey & lived to a ripe old age...and he wasn't that well taken care of either.

The point is that the propensity for melanomas was created in the gray (white) horse because of the breeding for one thing (color) at the expense of alot of other things. Of course I'm sure 2000 years ago (or however long ago it was), they didn't know what melanomas were, much less genetics.

The fact is a gray horse DOES have a better chance of having and dying from melanomas. Period. Just because many don't, doesn't mean many won't. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions -- there are ALWAYS exceptions.

Personally, a stallion (or mare) has to be x2-x3 times better in all ways for me to buy/breed them if they are a gray. But it has nothing to do with melanomas....it has to do with my personal breeding program (which is based around a cremello stallion) and the fact they are SO hard to keep clean.

But I did breed to Ideal and there are afew others I would breed to as long as I had at least a 50% chance of getting a non-gray foal.

But stop breeding grays? Nah -- that would just be silly.

[ewells]

Ideal I believe is 23 this year.

I would never buy or breed w/ a grey. I hate the clean up. But thats my Type A personality showing through.
We had a 18 hh Hanoverian Gelding at our barn that 2 yrs ago the trainer felt he was having difficulty with maintaining the contact on the bit he was a young horse 5 so just thought it was a training/stage he was going through. Over time it didn't get better and she felt his glands in his throat latch area were enlarged maybe growing, finally got a vet to take a biopsey. Guess what Melanoma insurance company was not happy he had chemo to shrink them but didnt appear to work so he then had them surgically removed. Even with their removal he just cant get comfortable and stay on the contact so his career is over. He went from being a very promising dressage horse worth 50-60k to you couldn't give him away and because he is a gelding you cant breed him. If he was would you? Here is in my opinion a good reason to at least be concentious. We all want a beautiful horse but it also has to be usefull when that is gone what do you get. I felt very sorry for his owner who when she bought him really felt like she had finally got her dream horse.

This does not mean that I have never admired a gorgious grey or even wanted one its just now I dont have the money or time to risk it.

[ponygirl]

Just looked at allbreed for Capitol, and there is no way that Folia could have been bay. She was by a gray, out of a gray, and her sire Maximus was by a gray out of a gray. Wouldn't he have had to have been homozygous for gray?

Folia was indeed a bay. Now as for Capitol's sire...well that's a whole nother story :)

See this article: http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/GREAT_STALLIONS/capitol%20I/capitol.html

[Portia]

Last week I watched as my chestnut-turning-grey yearling filly raced around her pasture at full speed, lead rope trailing from her halter, just waiting for her to step on the lead rope and kill herself. Why was she running around with lead rope trailing?

Because I had put the lead rope on when I opened the gate to the pasture to let in her 2 year old bay-turning-grey brother (who had 10 minutes before pulled back, broken the tab on his safety halter, and gone for his own run around the property and declined to be recaptured), but just as I attached the lead rope to her halter, I dropped it. Why did I drop it? Because I was startled when her brother, instead of coming in through the open gate, decided it would be more fun to jump into the pasture, from a standstill, over the 4' fence.

This followed on the events of the previous Saturday, when my coming-7 year old bay gelding had understandably spooked when, during a lesson on a windy day, the jump we were walking past suddenly blew over, wings and all. Having dumped me, he also took a high-speed tour of the property, ending when he slipped on a hard rocky spot while making a turn. He came up lame and within ten minutes could barely move, the muscles on his left side having seized up. (He was fine after doses of bute and muscle relaxants and a few days off.)

So all three of my horses tried to kill themselves within a week, thankfully none of them succeeding, or even doing serious damage. But this is why I do not particularly worry about whether melanoma may kill them 25 years from now. ;)

[Ghazzu]

The point is that the propensity for melanomas was created in the gray (white) horse because of the breeding for one thing (color) at the expense of alot of other things. Of course I'm sure 2000 years ago (or however long ago it was), they didn't know what melanomas were, much less genetics.


I don't think you can assume that people were deliberately breeding *for* grey.
Since it's dominant, it wouldn't take any effort in that direction to become common.

You could just plain breed for fast, and get grey.

[showjumpers66]

The fact that so many Holsteiners are now grey is very good evidence that when breeding for the best jumpers, the cream has come in a grey package strongly influenced by Ramzes. No one was breeding for color, but rather the qualities that make a good upper level show jumper.

[Kyzteke]

I don't think you can assume that people were deliberately breeding *for* grey.
Since it's dominant, it wouldn't take any effort in that direction to become common.

You could just plain breed for fast, and get grey.

Read the article I posted. Yes, they WERE breeding for gray -- or at least "white." Supposedly, the mutation that causes melanomas in gray horses trace to a single stallion -- supposedly an Arab (that part is assumed).

[RodeoQueen]

I have an 8 year old Grey who's bloodlines go back to Tetrarch, too! My horse is primarily black - yes, still today, very black with some dappling but his face is white. As a 2 he was all black with these funny white spots on him that our vet called Bird Shi$ Grey! There are pictures of the Tetrarch with these same odd spots.

My horse has no tumors at this time.

Can you color experts answer this: do all grey horses go through dapple stage, then "flee bite" stage or are dapple and flea bite types of "grey?"

laura

[Pronzini]

Read the article I posted. Yes, they WERE breeding for gray -- or at least "white." Supposedly, the mutation that causes melanomas in gray horses trace to a single stallion -- supposedly an Arab (that part is assumed).

Actually I looked at your article and it said this

That the selection for white hair was intentional seems likely, given the deep historic cross-cultural mythology associated with white horses.

That's not a fact but a supposition based on an unsupported premise held by the author. Given that gray horses are found worldwide in different breeds both of you could be right. I'm sure that someone somewhere in the long history of the world specifically bred for the color gray because they liked it. I'm also positive that the breeders who used the services of Native Dancer did so because he was fast and he sired fast horses who won a couple of Kentucky Derbies among other big races. In the TB in particular, there has been a prejudice against gray horses at different times and places.

[sporthorsefilly]

I adore gray horses, because I love the COLOR! How foolish to condemn a particular color, if you are truly going into medicine why not ask "why" these horses are prone to melanomas and dedicate yourself to working toward a cure. Trying to eradicate gray horses, is not the answer.

The OP better get used to all sorts of things in breeding. Can't wait to see what this pre-vet person says about Persian Cats or Pekinese dogs!

Shouldn't she also ask why people who have Hemophilia or Tay Saks, or Retinitis Pigmentosa have children, knowing that they can pass on these problems.

Veterinary medicine, all medicine, is about finding answers or solutions to problems, not about wondering why anyone would want to produce a gray horse.

Off my soap box now.

[SGray]

just to add -- I hate having greys -- the inevitability that you will find a big green splotch on your horse the morning of your earliest class in the show.......the yellowing of the tail.....the white hair all over you as you groom....the fact that they often seem to want to be a different color and try to attain that by rolling in the mud more than any other color of horse.......the way the shape of their hair means that you don't get the same wonderful shine to the coat that you can with chestnut, bay, etc.....

loved my big bay guy

but when you find a horse with a really good mind, great conformation, etc you take it -- no matter if it's purple

[vineyridge]

Couple of things I remembered--
Gray horses were frequently the mounts of generals in the days of formal warfare. Think Napoleon, Robert E. Lee, and many others. Reason--they could be easily seen for purposes of rallying the troops. Perhaps that is why gray chosen as a plus for the Lippizaners and the Percherons.

There also used be a foxhunting bias towards the huntsmen and field masters riding grays for the same reason. When I was a teenager, I rode in a hunt and was told that there should always be at least one gray among the hunt officials--whips, field master, huntsman, etc.

The Nature article answered my question about whether modern day grays appear in any horse breed that does not have Oriental horses in the lineage.

[RiddleMeThis]

My horse has no tumors at this time.

Can you color experts answer this: do all grey horses go through dapple stage, then "flee bite" stage or are dapple and flea bite types of "grey?"

lauraNot all horses go through dappling and not all horses flea bite, but some do both.

Flea Bit and Dapple are really just stages of gray but some stay in those stages for a long time.

[Waterwitch]

Couple of things I remembered--
Gray horses were frequently the mounts of generals in the days of formal warfare. Think Napoleon, Robert E. Lee, and many others. Reason--they could be easily seen for purposes of rallying the troops. Perhaps that is why gray chosen as a plus for the Lippizaners and the Percherons.

There also used be a foxhunting bias towards the huntsmen and field masters riding grays for the same reason. When I was a teenager, I rode in a hunt and was told that there should always be at least one gray among the hunt officials--whips, field master, huntsman, etc.

The Nature article answered my question about whether modern day grays appear in any horse breed that does not have Oriental horses in the lineage.

And to come at this from a related but slightly tangential angle, grey from Iberian (and probably Barb) sources was inadvertently reinforced in the Irish Draught population due to selection during the World Wars of only dark coated Irish Draughts, sent to the continent by the thousands to be used as artillery horses. This is the proposed reason that grey (and chestnut) are the most common coat colors in the breed.

[grayarabpony]

Dapple is usually seen when the horse is young and still has dark pigmented hair.

Fleabites show after the horse has turned white, and are usually a dark chesnut/ maroon color. I've heard that they can intensify with age.

[Waterwitch]

Fleabites show after the horse has turned white, and are usually a dark chesnut/ maroon color. I've heard that they can intensify with age.

IF this happens (going white to fleabitten), it certainly is not always the case.

My dappled grey mare (8 in May) is starting to flea bite amongst her dapples (as is her full sister, who is two years older). Their half brother, went from dappled to flea bitten with black, brown, and red flea bites (he was born very dark brown). For awhile he seemed to be getting more fleabitten with time, but now at age 13 (14 in August) looks like he may be thinking about going the other way toward white.

ETA: the most fascinating change I've seen in my own horses are the ones that are born chestnut and go rose grey, then a dark blue steel grey at age 3/4 that almost looks black based. Not all of my grey chestnuts get dark like that so it is curious.

[RiddleMeThis]

Gray tends to darken the pigment of the hair and then turn it white. Its really quite interesting to see.

[Janet]

Read the article I posted. Yes, they WERE breeding for gray -- or at least "white." Supposedly, the mutation that causes melanomas in gray horses trace to a single stallion -- supposedly an Arab (that part is assumed).
The article you posted, while interesting, had several non-sequitors, and this is one of them.

The existence of white horses in many different populations, despite their propensity to develop skin cancer and die young, is certain evidence of human interference. This would only be a logical/rational statement if a large percentage of gray horse died BEFORE REACHING BREEDING AGE.

There is no basis for assuming, either under human domestication, nor in the wild, that gray horses, in general, "died young".

IIRC, the average lifespan of a feral or wild horse is 7 years. Most gray-horse-melanomas don't cause problems until well after 7.

So the presence of gray horses "in many populations" is most definitely NOT "evidence of human interferance". In fact, since gray horses are a relatively small proportion of the equine population, even though they color is genetically dominant, it could be considered evidence supporting the proposition that humans selected AGAINST gray.

The other non sequitor is here
That the selection for white hair was intentional seems likely, given the deep historic cross-cultural mythology associated with white horses. It makes no sense at all from a logical basis. It would be just as logical to say that "white hair" had "mythology assoicated with it" BECAUSE it was rare.

[Mozart]

Gray tends to darken the pigment of the hair and then turn it white. Its really quite interesting to see.

Can you think of any other animal this happens to? Aside from age related greying or a white juvenile coat? I can't...

[RiddleMeThis]

Can you think of any other animal this happens to? Aside from age related greying or a white juvenile coat? I can't...

Does it have to be in another animal?? I dont really understand how that applies.... ETA: Dogs have a form of a progressive graying thats not associated with just general aging http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/greying.html http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/GENETICS/ColorGen.html

[SGray]

"The article you posted, while interesting, had several non-sequitors, and this is one of them."


Quote:
"The existence of white horses in many different populations, despite their propensity to develop skin cancer and die young, is certain evidence of human interference. "



sounds as if the author of that article may not understand the difference between human melanoma and equine melanoma

[Mozart]

Does it have to be in another animal?? I dont really understand how that applies.... ETA: Dogs have a form of a progressive graying thats not associated with just general aging http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/greying.html http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/GENETICS/ColorGen.html

I only ask the question in relation to the proposition that the graying gene is "bad" and should be considered a "flaw" or disease of the of the coat (as was proposed by one researcher). I just couldn't, off the top of my head, think of any other mammal that demonsrated this sort of life time colour change other than an age related graying or a white juvenile coat. If that was the case then perhaps there was a stronger case to be made that the gene is some sort of bizarre anomaly.

It's all really idle chit chat anyway..I don't think anyone is going to stop breeding or buying grays based on this thread ;)

[grayarabpony]

IF this happens (going white to fleabitten), it certainly is not always the case.

My dappled grey mare (8 in May) is starting to flea bite amongst her dapples (as is her full sister, who is two years older). Their half brother, went from dappled to flea bitten with black, brown, and red flea bites (he was born very dark brown). For awhile he seemed to be getting more fleabitten with time, but now at age 13 (14 in August) looks like he may be thinking about going the other way toward white.

ETA: the most fascinating change I've seen in my own horses are the ones that are born chestnut and go rose grey, then a dark blue steel grey at age 3/4 that almost looks black based. Not all of my grey chestnuts get dark like that so it is curious.

I think it all depends on how soon the horse goes gray. My horse was never dapple gray; she was born dark bay, then went rose bay, then was white with a little bit of black points by the time she was 6. After that the flea bites started showing up, somewhat to my chagrin. She's still cute though. :)

[Portia]

It is very strange watching young grey horses develop and change color.

The REAL Portia, went through the chestnut-rose grey-steel grey-white progression, with several stops at "a color not found in nature" along the way. When I bought her just before her second birthday, she was a dark reddish brown mud color. At four she was that lovely rose grey, then she gradually lost the red -- except for the center of her tail -- and went dappled steel grey. Every season when she grew a new coat then shed out, she changed color. At 13, she is mostly white with some dark points and some reddish flea bites.

Portia's born-bay son is now shedding out his winter coat and, at nearly two, has darkened considerably overall to a much darker brown-black, with patches of grey. Her born-chestnut daughter, now shedding out her first winter coat, looks to be on the same rose grey path as Portia. Both are following the transitional "color not found in nature" cycle, too.

[vineyridge]

I think the darkening before graying may also happen in humans with the gray gene. I have it--gray gene--got it from my mother, who got it from her father, who got it from his father. We are the only ones in the family who never dyed our hair, so I can't say if it is in any others--well, I have a 2nd cousin with it--, but we both started out with dark hair that darkened, then went white. My cousin was blonde before he went white. Sometimes in my case, a particular hair couldn't decide when to stay white and would have bands of dark and white and dark and white. Since humans don't quite shed like horses and the length of the hair is so different, it's possible the mechanism of the graying turning on and off is similar.

I started to go gray at age twelve, and by 35 was almost completely white haired. Same with the other family members I mentioned.

[Ghazzu]

Read the article I posted. Yes, they WERE breeding for gray -- or at least "white." Supposedly, the mutation that causes melanomas in gray horses trace to a single stallion -- supposedly an Arab (that part is assumed).


"They" covers an awful lot of ground.
I breed Arabs.
I do not give a tinker's dam what color they come out--in fact, I wish my young stallion had *not* gone grey--he was a gorgeous liver chestnut.
But I got a grey.
Does that mean *I* was breeding for grey?

[Kyzteke]

"They" covers an awful lot of ground.
I breed Arabs.
I do not give a tinker's dam what color they come out--in fact, I wish my young stallion had *not* gone grey--he was a gorgeous liver chestnut.
But I got a grey.
Does that mean *I* was breeding for grey?

There is an extended version of the article on The Horse website. White horses were considered a status symbol -- that was the color of kings, princes, generals and the victors.

It was a more desirable color than others in many cultures and for many centuries, so you are right, "they" does cover alot of ground. Sorry I can't name every horse breeder from the beginning of time to now. But the point was, (and it IS more than sheer speculation, this research has been done on the genetics of the gray mutation), this strong preference for white "bonded" this increased chance of melanoma with the gray color gene. That is why about 70% of gray horses over the age of 15 will develop melanomas compared to a MUCH smaller % of other colors.

If you do not care what color your horses are, then (rather obviously, I would think), you are NOT breeding for gray. "They" were.

[Kyzteke]

Here's the entire article. Don't shoot the messenger.



For more than 100 years, equine researchers have been examining why gray horses that are losing hair pigmentation are often concurrently affected by melanomas—tumors characterized by a massive production of the pigment melanin.

According to European researchers, humans cherry-picking gray coat color milleniums ago--due to the social prestige of riding a white horse—also inadvertently selected a gene mutation that predisposes horses to melanomas.

Professor Leif Andersson, PhD, from Uppsala University and the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, explained this selection for melanomas was likely not noticed as the gray mutation has no negative effects on the function of the horse throughout most of its life.

"A gray horse is as strong and runs as fast as any other horse and is probably better adapted to an environment with strong sunlight because the white coat reflects sunlight and its black skin protects from UV-damage," said Andersson. "Identifying the genetic cause of the gray coat color in horses is important because 70-80% of gray horses more than 15 years of age have melanomas and reduced lifespans," due to these growths.

Based on previous research, Andersson and colleagues knew that the mutant gray gene was found on a specific region of chromosome 9. In this study they identified and evaluated four candidate genes located in the same region as the gray-causing mutation.

The researchers identified the relevant gene, based on a duplication they discovered.

"We hypothesize that this genetic duplication results in the proliferation of melanocytes, melanin-producing cells, in certain areas of the skin which predisposes gray horses to the development in melanoma," Andersson explained.

At the same time, there is a hyperproliferation (an abnormally high rate of cell division) of melanocytes in the hair follicles elsewhere on the body that depletes stem cells necessary for replenishing future stores of melanocytes. Eventually, horses with the gray mutation effectively run out of melanocytes and exhibit premature graying.

The research group is now breeding transgenic mice (in which one or more genes of another species—in this case, the horse—have been incorporated) that mimic the mutation in gray horses so that scientists can study the graying process and the development of tumors in great detail.

The study, "A cis-acting regulatory mechanism causes premature hair graying and susceptibility to melanoma in the horse," was published in the August edition of the journal Nature Genetics.

[Ghazzu]

That is why about 70% of gray horses over the age of 15 will develop melanomas compared to a MUCH smaller % of other colors.


And you conveniently leave out the fact that when that smaller % of the "other colors" do develop melanomas, they are much more likely to be malignant than those in grey horses are...

[Vesper Sparrow]

It is very strange watching young grey horses develop and change color.

The REAL Portia, went through the chestnut-rose grey-steel grey-white progression, with several stops at "a color not found in nature" along the way.

I have one like this. His colour is a work in progress. He looked like a slightly dappled buckskin when I first got him at 2--at 3, he slowly turned dark dappled rose grey. I think it's too bad that his lovely white blaze and stockings are slowly being erased. I kind of hope he does end up with the chestnut or bay flea bitten look, which I like.

He does have one odd thing. I think he was probably born a bay, but he does have wide horizontal chestnut brindling on his lower legs. It could be just strange dappling, but it almost looks like brindling. And he also has one or two white Tetrarch spots on his rump and a hint of a rabicano skunk tail.

[Kyzteke]

And you conveniently leave out the fact that when that smaller % of the "other colors" do develop melanomas, they are much more likely to be malignant than those in grey horses are...

What is up with you anyway?

What am I, the source of all answers regarding melanomas in gray horses? Do you think I have some ulterior motive?

If people want information there is tons of it out there...*I* don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other.

Lighten up. Yes, that's a fact. So? I believe it even states that in the article...it certainly does in most articles on melanomas.

Go have a drink or cut back on your caffeine or take a nap...CHILL!

[lolalola]

Back to the OP - it appears that she was dissecting grey horses at school who were filled with melanomas, but they were apparently healthy horses purchased at auction for the express purpose of dissection? Might be an interesting experiment to open these horses up, as in colic surgery, note the melanomas, then sew the horse back up. Let it recover, and see how it takes for obvious disease progression. Of course, not many vet schools can afford to keep a bunch of grey horses around for years ...

[Guilherme]

So here at my vet school some of us see grey horses and think "oh too bad!" since we have dissected multiple grey horses. All had melanoma, one was older and it was literally everywhere you looked. So, honestly, why don't we breed the grey gene out? Just because people like the look of a grey horse doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me. I don't mean to start a trainwreck but honestly I see the grey gene as something that is a detriment to the horse.

There has been research on grey horses and no one has come to a conclusion as to the exact mechanism on why they get their own type of melanoma. They do know that it's not usually as lethal (and usually takes a very long time to progress) compared to a solid colored horse who gets melanoma.

Is it worth the horse having a form of cancer for the beautiful grey color? Personally I will never own or breed to one - both because of the melanoma and my goodness to keep one clean can sometimes be a hassle! ;)

I have six grey horses (ages 4-26). One has one, small melanoma. This is equal to the average within our breed (Mangalarga Marchador). Brazilian vets in country tell me that melanoma incidence is about 1 in 6.

We select our breeding for its temperment, conformation, and gait. Color is about the last item I consider.

G.

[Fessy's Mom]

I haven't read this whole thread, but having just lost my dear Jack two weeks ago yesterday to melanoma at the young age of 11, I am pretty certain I will not be looking for another grey horse - ever. :no:

[vineyridge]

I was reading something last night, and this jumped out at me apropros this thread.

One of the Roman emperors in the 3rd century AD was always accompanied by a troup of guards mounted on white horses.

So it does appear that white has been a desirable color for ceremonial horses for almost 2000 years. Since that's the case, people probably did breed for it and are a cause of its persistence in horses.

[bloomingtonfarm]

I adore gray horses, because I love the COLOR! How foolish to condemn a particular color, if you are truly going into medicine why not ask "why" these horses are prone to melanomas and dedicate yourself to working toward a cure. Trying to eradicate gray horses, is not the answer.

The OP better get used to all sorts of things in breeding. Can't wait to see what this pre-vet person says about Persian Cats or Pekinese dogs!

Shouldn't she also ask why people who have Hemophilia or Tay Saks, or Retinitis Pigmentosa have children, knowing that they can pass on these problems.

Veterinary medicine, all medicine, is about finding answers or solutions to problems, not about wondering why anyone would want to produce a gray horse.

Off my soap box now.

Please, the OP was only asking a question.... no need to jump at her like that. You have an interesting point of view and I agree for the most part but I am sure there is a much kinder way to put it.

Why so many threads end up to a harsh and mean reply.

Often a simple question goes to a lot of mileage and gave us the opportunity to learn much. I don't know if it is the fact that being behind a screen change our personality and make some more aggressive than they really are but it often gets bad.

I loooove grey horses too, my heart always skip a beat or two when I see a nice dapple grey... too bad we can't fix the color for good! And I have two grey horse, one 6 and the other had melanoma when I bought her 5 years ago and now at 18 it has not evolved and she is still in a very good health.

But I can understand why the OP is asking this question... AND it is only a question; there is no reason to treat her like this.

Ok I am ready... you may blast me now ( I know my english must be terrible )

[Ghazzu]

What is up with you anyway?

What am I, the source of all answers regarding melanomas in gray horses?


Apparently not.


Do you think I have some ulterior motive?


No, just a propensity to overgeneralize.


If people want information there is tons of it out there...


some of it accurate, some of it not.


Lighten up.


I'm *fine*. Had a nice relatively relaxing week of spring break, if you don't count the afternoon I spent cleaning in the anatomy lab.



Go have a drink or cut back on your caffeine or take a nap...CHILL!

Consider taking your own advice.
Just sayin'...

[SmokenMirrors]

I hope none of you mind me responding, I am not of the sport horse circle or hunter/jumper...I merely own a grey mare. My mare, Smoke, is a dapple grey Percheron. I bought her because at the time I fell in love with her gentle nature and her open and kind face. She had been abused by a farrier, she was stubborn and she didn't want to stand in harness. Yes, she is a driving draft. Her driving skills are wonderful, she gives me 110% of herself every time I ask her to do something, I won my first blue ribbon in driving with her, and be it in ladies fine driving or under saddle or doing farm work, she can do it all and does it well.

When I bought her, I had many people tell me, oh she is a grey she is going to get cancer, or oh no your going to loos her early. Does Smoke have bumps? Sure she does, on her left side, two on her right, one in her mouth by the crease of her lips where the bit lays, and one on her anus. I have had the vet come out and do a scraping of the one in her mouth, I watch it and check it every month to ensure it isn't getting any bigger, as I do the other bumps on my mare. Do I worry that as she gets older, as she is 16 already, will get cancer? Damn right I am.

When I retire Smoke and let her be a much loved pasture pet, then begin my search for a new draft to drive and show, will I look at dapple grey drafts? You bet I will. I don't mind having to be diligent in every little bump and lesion or anything else, she has given me so much pleasure in my life that if, God forbid, she does come down with it, then it is my job to ensure she has a great life, goes with dignity and she will never suffer in my care and on my watch.

[erinwillow]

Wow. Is this thread really happening? Speaking from a breed perspective, if we "do away with" greys then the Connemara as a breed might very well go down the tubes!!:eek::no: Okay, then add to that the Lippazans and some Arabians, etc. So, How about I suggest that this idea is ludacris! Also, being a grey does not necessarily EQUAL death by melanoma. Are there some deaths caused by melanomas, sure, as are there deaths by injury, genetic dispositions like HYPP and a hundred others, there is neglect, there is accident, the list goes on and on. I do not at all think that an outright cessation of breeding grey horses or ponies is at all the answer. We might be wise to invest $$$ into further research and see if we can't find an environmental factor that triggers malginant melanomas (as I am sure there are melanomas that are just unsightly however, non-malignant). In this way, we as horsekeepers can at the very least try to reduce risk....

[Kyzteke]

No, just a propensity to overgeneralize.



some of it accurate, some of it not.
.

First of all, you do not know me well enough to know what sort of "propensity" I have for anything.

Second, I was simply attaching a link -- if I'd known I was actually writing a paper for review & grading I would have been more careful!

Thirdly, anyone who counts on BBs like this to be THE source of information on any subject is a fool. It can be a good starting point, that's all.

And lastly, I STILL think you need a drink....unless you are menopausal, in which case I'll cut you some slack....

[Portia]

But I can understand why the OP is asking this question... AND it is only a question; there is no reason to treat her like this.

Ok I am ready... you may blast me now ( I know my english must be terrible )
I agree with you completely. And your English is not terrible -- it is very good. Certainly far, far better than the Dutch (or German, French, Spanish, etc.) of 99% of the posters here! :) (Coreene and a couple of other regular posters actually do speak Dutch.)

[Ghazzu]

And I *still* think you make unwarranted assumptions.
Carry on.

[RiddleMeThis]

And you conveniently leave out the fact that when that smaller % of the "other colors" do develop melanomas, they are much more likely to be malignant than those in grey horses are...
I personally dont think the fact that grays get more melanomas than other colors has anything to do with how deadly they are in the other colors. It is fact that grays develop more melanomas than the other colors. The fact that when horses of other colors get melanomas they are more deadly has no effect on that fact what so ever and vice versa.

[springer]

More importantly, why are ignorant and stupid people allowed to reproduce? I think we should put a stop to it. I personally love greys, melanomas and all! :)

[bloomingtonfarm]

I agree with you completely. And your English is not terrible -- it is very good. Certainly far, far better than the Dutch (or German, French, Spanish, etc.) of 99% of the posters here! :) (Coreene and a couple of other regular posters actually do speak Dutch.)

Well, this is nice. I was opening this thread thinking ' Arm yourself now, there is certainly some mean comments coming to you' as I found COth can sometime be so very nasty (but it is true, sometime very nice too). So thanks, I am French, I know that I might do mistake without even noticing it.

[Portia]

Suzanne, you're more than welcome. And forgive me for presuming you were Dutch, simply because you have Dutch horses. I read French, can understand some spoken French, and speak enough to get myself from CDG into Paris and pick up the occasional item at the pharmacie, but that's about it. So believe me, you are doing much, much better writing in English than I could ever try to do in French. Bonsoir. :)

[Oakleigh]

I own numerous gray horses. One of them is a 26 yo mare, Holsteiner, by Capitano. She has never had a melanoma, nor is she expected to at her age. From this line, I have bred at least 10 more gray horses, none of which has had melanomas. Capitano was the sire of Capitol I.

I know more humans who should not have bred, than I do horses. This entire subject is ridiculous.

Oakleigh
Pat

[smm20]

I think the OP needs to do a study on the incidence of widespread internal melanomas in grey horses that did not die of melanoma. His/her observations are based on a very small sample size, however, the statement in post #117 is very telling - in one state (Oregon) greys were rejected from the slaughter market. Clearly there is a reason for this - internal melanomas????

I would love for the OP to apply for a small grant to do a much larger study. The sample population could be horses in slaughterhouses - the OP would observe the butchering of these horses and rank each into categories based on abundance of internal melamonas. Additional variables would be external color, homo/heterozygous grey (via DNA test of tissue sample - most expensive part), and age (the most difficult to record accurately). In a matter of 1-2 weeks, OP would have a significant sample size. This would be SO EASY, and would make a great publication to add to the CV.

Who knows? Some patterns might emerge, such as frequent location of internal tumors that would correlate with other health risks that we don't currently understand or associate with grey.

[SmartAlex]

Since this is the first day of spring:cool:, and I'm in a positive mood, let me put a twist on all of your thoughts that it's a difficult color to keep clean...

It is easier to see if I have really gotten my grey horse clean. Just like my white tile bathroom floor. Why oh why did I choose this!!! It/they aren't any more difficult to GET clean, just more difficult to get to LOOK clean.

You all with those brown horses, I know you have secret poopey stains on them ;)

[Pirateer]

Those of you talking about the greying out being unique to horses, what about a JRT or Dalmatian or bulldog or other dogs, born white who develop spots?

[rivenoak]

....the fact that they often seem to want to be a different color and try to attain that by rolling in the mud more than any other color of horse...

This is SO true of my mare. I think she's trying to go back to her baby color of chestnut by rolling in the reddish dirt/sand at every opportunity.:lol:

The inside hair of her ears still are chestnut, if you really look. It's so cute.

There also used be a foxhunting bias towards the huntsmen and field masters riding grays for the same reason. When I was a teenager, I rode in a hunt and was told that there should always be at least one gray among the hunt officials--whips, field master, huntsman, etc.

I'm aware of this as well. It's hard to hide when you're on the grey! And what looks better than a someone in their pinks mounted on a grey horse?!

[M.K.Smith]

You know... melanoma is a word I HATE right now... and although I own two greys, it's not becase of my horses. My husband was recently diagnosed with stage 4 melanoma.

First off... my husband was diagnosed with stage IIB melanoma and it was in remission prior to us having a child. I would be more than highly offended if anybody questioned our decision to have a child. In humans there can be a genetic link to melanoma, but it is not necessarily so.

Breeding grey horses is a personal decision IMO. My stallion is grey (heterozygous) & I think he exhibits the quality neccessary to be a stallion. His sire was grey and I chose to breed to him based on his qualities, not on his color. My stallion has bred once & his son is grey (heterozygous). I recognize that melanoma is much more prevalant in greys and I accept that. I also realize that typically in horses melanoma doesn't occur till later years and typically the horse will die of something other than cancer.

When we start regulating breeding decisions in horses then who knows where that leads.

Now, I've spent the last several days at NIH/NCI (National Institute of Health/ National Cancer Institute) and have seen quite a few human patients with melanoma... make that stage 4 melanoma... I have seen so many who on the outside look healthy and strong. You wouldn't know my husband was even sick. But on the inside they've got tumors all over the place!

So... going back to the OP's statement... it wouldn't surprise me at all if a large number of horses with visible melanomas also have many internal tumors as well. It is also very possible that a lot of greys that people say die of colic could be colicing because of tumors in their intestines which caused the colic- that would be an intersting study to see the results of.

It certainly appears that in horses the tumors are much slower growing... I can tell you from what I've experienced melanoma in humans is very agressive and stubborn- in about a months time tumors have popped up all over the place.

So... as I said... melanoma is something that I hate right now! I'd love to see a way to get it stopped in humans and in horses (and all other species- I've heard dogs can also get melanoma).

[MistyBlue]

MKSmith...my prayers and good thought for you and your husband.

I personally am not a fan of greys or melanomas. I think they look very attractive when show groomed....who doesn't?
But I;m not a huge fan of a walking Tide commercial (the before) every day other than show days. :lol: Not to mention that I have horrific luck with vet bills attacking me and I would have the grey with the expensive, bad, deadly melanomas. And even if I got the benign types...I'm really not wanting a lumpy horse.
Can someone explain to me something about greys? My mother had a grey eons ago when I was a teen. She bought him when he was 10 I think and sold him when he was 15. He was still pretty dappled when she bought him...darker mane and tail and points. In the 5 years she owned him...he did not get one bit lighter. Why not?
He did get melanomas...had a big one on his shoulder removed because it kept growing. The rest were smaller and stayed that way. All the greys at that barn were lumpy except for a grey Arab. I don;t think she had any on her.

[JWB]

Well since there is no true roan in the TB breed (and if we assume this pedigree to be accurate, which seeing that some of the color information is curiously missing and that anyone can edit this site we can't) she would have been genetically grey, and likely got it from a grey sire even though his color isn't listed on pedigree query. He goes back to Tetrarch through his dam, who even though HER color is also not listed could have been grey.

ETA: Some of the missing colors are there on allbreedpedigree.com - so if those are accurate, the other possibility would be sabino roans registered as roan/grey. Either way we are looking at a likely case of misregistration somewhere along the way.


We bred a Wekiva Springs filly (TB) a few years back... We did not breed for color BUT we did breed knowing he's homozygous for gray. The mare was a bay with one agouti gene... (We knew this from trial and error - 2 bay foals previously and one chestnut)

Her filly sired by Wekiva Springs was born solid chestnut - no gray to her at all and if we hadn't know better we would have registered her as such - but we knew (and she did at about 18 months) that eventually, she was going to turn gray.

The point is though, if we had bred to a stallion who was not homozygous, and since our filly turned gray rather late, we may have registered her as a chestnut in error.

[JWB]

I don't think you can assume that people were deliberately breeding *for* grey.
Since it's dominant, it wouldn't take any effort in that direction to become common.

You could just plain breed for fast, and get grey.


The bedouins bred specifically for gray in their Arabs. The gray horses were less visible from a distance against the sandy terrain. You could spot a black, bay or chestnut from much farther away - so much less desirable for warriors, stealth, etc.

Since Arabians play into every major sport horse breed out there, it seems logical to me that there would be a lot of gray offspring.

I've heard (and I don't know if it's accurate or not) that 85% of gray geldings/stallions will develop melanomas. That said, I don't know what the rate is on mares or what the rates are on other horses.

I've seen plenty of gray horses live long lives, I've also seen several put down due to melanomas. I would not breed specifically FOR gray but that said, I drool over a few stallions (Lintas, Cicera's Icewater, Torino) that are gray. If I ever actually decide to stop riding my girl long enough to breed her, I don't think that I would be deterred by coat color if a gray was genuinely the best choice.

[RiddleMeThis]

The mare was a bay with one agouti gene... (We knew this from trial and error - 2 bay foals previously and one chestnut) This does not tell you that she has only one agouti gene. All this tells you is that she has on A. You don't know what that other place holds.

[horserider12]

oh c'mon, we a ll know why grey horses are still around, they're so pretty! My mare is grey and going on 17 years old and she has been pure white since she was five and no signs of melanomas. Let's remember, many horses of all colors die of colic in old age from what? Tumors wrapping around their intestines, yes these are fatty but just as deadly as any melanomas. The two greys that I know that died of melanomas were well into their twenties, so odds are they were going to pass eventually from something, do any of you have ones that died young from melanomas? I haven't had a c hance to read the whole thread.

[magnum]

Here's the entire article. Don't shoot the messenger.

"Identifying the genetic cause of the gray coat color in horses is important because 70-80% of gray horses more than 15 years of age have melanomas and reduced lifespans," due to these growths.

I would never buy another grey (tho they sure are LOVELY to look at from a distance :) !) based on this fact. Especially the ones who are nearly white by age 3-4 (like my Schonfeld). He had a small melanoma by age 5 in the anus area ... and yes, my trainer had had an Irish Draught who died from melanomas at age 17, so when I found this one ... it was definitely cause for concern for me personally ...

When in Germany, I noticed a markedly REDUCED number of grey WB's vs. what you would see at an average show here in the States. They were simply a rarity there ... and even in England, I did not see as many as expected ....

Thanks to the OP for reminding us to consider all consequences of our decisions.

Magnum

[cloudyandcallie]

I would never buy another grey (tho they sure are LOVELY to look at from a distance :) !) based on this fact. Especially the ones who are nearly white by age 3-4 (like my Schonfeld). He had a small melanoma by age 5 in the anus area ... and yes, my trainer had had an Irish Draught who died from melanomas at age 17, so when I found this one ... it was definitely cause for concern for me personally ...

When in Germany, I noticed a markedly REDUCED number of grey WB's vs. what you would see at an average show here in the States. They were simply a rarity there ... and even in England, I did not see as many as expected ....

Thanks to the OP for reminding us to consider all consequences of our decisions.

Magnum

That's because the Germans sell all the greys to us.:lol:
But as posters have said, there's not a lot of breeding for grey, but for performance and other qualities. Without Inschallah there would be no Ideal (and isn't he very old?) (and no Cloudy who is grey and white). And in the wb books, there are lots of older German wbs who were grey and who stood at stud till they were in their late 20s. I chose my horse despite the fact that he was grey and white. He's messy, he's always manure colored, but he has a floating trot and he can jump the moon with a perfect bascule. Now if he were just bay!

I'm more concerned about colic than about melanomas, and wish someone could breed horses with 5 foot guts. (I also give my horse a lot of antioxidants, just in case they help his immune system fight off any melanomas.)

[Donella]

Go to the Holstein region in Germany. Ever notice that a good proportion of the top jumper stallions are grey??

[sisu27]

Not a breeder and have no dog in this fight (have had only bays my entire life), but I saw a lovely gray at a HT the other day and my first thought was "too bad he wasn't a bay, I'd be asking if he were for sale". He was a very nice dark, dapply steel gray but all I could think was why add one more thing to the list of horse owners worst nightmares?

I am ignorant and this may be a stupid question but do non-grays suffer melanomas as well? Perhaps with far less frequency?

[3Dogs]

Honestly, reading some of the responses on this thread, you might think we here are driven to select horses not on their prospective performance but on color, style, etcetera! Good golly, many many top jumpers are GREY! Many top hunters are GREY! So they develop melanomas - it is unfortunate, it is maybe life limiting in some way - but not before they can perform or any other color horse performs.

To this way of thinking, we might make sure no humans with some genetic issues that might produce shorter life span - keep them from breeding - I may be stretching the thoughts here but honestly - talent is talent. You are all certainly entitled to not loving greys and everyone IS entitled, but the idea that you eliminate greys from the breeding pool? Might eliminate some of the greatest talents around.

JMHO

[vineyridge]

Just because a lot of the early TBs came from gray Arabs doesn't mean that there are lots of gray lines in TBs. All modern gray TBs trace back to ONE stallion born in 1811 named Master Robert. All of the other gray lines died out, including the great sire imported to the United States named Messenger.

[Portia]

There are certainly some genetic predispositions that, if a horse has it, it should simply not be bred regardless of talent. HYPP, for example. For me, that also includes early onset navicular. But, for me, the possibility of an increased risk of melanomas, most likely when the horse is at an advanced age, is not one of those disqualifying factors. I can understand why others may not agree.

[Janet]

I am ignorant and this may be a stupid question but do non-grays suffer melanomas as well? Perhaps with far less frequency?
Yes, non-grays can get melanomas. In fact, I think it is specifically called "non-gray melanoma".
Much rarer, but much more deadly.

[angrychinchillas]

Fascinating discussion, thanks!

I have nothing constructive to add, only a tangent derail: does anyone know what it is about greys that make them smell like wet dog? I've noticed this especially in the years since I started braiding, and it's unmistakable. No other color smells like grey, especially when they're wet!

(I'm also dead certain it's not a matter of cleanliness, either, as I smell it on horses that have been bathed every morning for 3-5 days straight at a show...)

[ponygirl]

Fascinating discussion, thanks!

I have nothing constructive to add, only a tangent derail: does anyone know what it is about greys that make them smell like wet dog? I've noticed this especially in the years since I started braiding, and it's unmistakable. No other color smells like grey, especially when they're wet!

(I'm also dead certain it's not a matter of cleanliness, either, as I smell it on horses that have been bathed every morning for 3-5 days straight at a show...)

I am a lucky owner of 3 grays (ack!) and a bay. Only one of my grays has the wet dog smell and yes it is a funky wet dog smell. The other 2 grays do not have this smell. None of the grays are related either. 2 are mares (No WD smell) and 1 gelding - Wet Dog Smell.

[Portia]

Hmmm. Never noticed any wet dog smell on my grey mare. I'll have to check out the filly and the two year old gelding. Gawd knows the yearling looks like a wet dog these days. ;)