"Two Finger" rule petition to FEI

[Sebastian]

So, I recently received an email from a good friend of mine (a Dressage Trainer in TX) re: this petition (http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/SavingTheHorses/) aimed at getting the FEI to implement a "two finger" rule regarding flash nose bands at all sanctioned Dressage events. She's also written articles at horsesforlife.com regarding the biomechanics of the horse's mouth re: the nose band.

I had ALSO just read Jimmy Wofford's latest article in Practical Horseman titled "Is it Art or Violence?" regarding the same issue...

I chose to sign the petition. The movement seems to be "grass roots" at the moment, but more BNTs seem to be signing on...

So, what do you all think? Genuinely curious.
Thanks,
Seb :)

[Cat - OnceUponADressageDream]

About time! How do people think cranking their horses' mouths shut to the point of pain will help develop 'harmony'?

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

According to a recent thread on this forum everyone is doing the 2 fingers anyway, so everyone will sign, right?

[Renae]

Saying two fingers, however, is unenforacble. Whose fingers? Two fingers of a child vs. two fingers of a man are two very different distances. Whose fingers shall be the official fingers?

[bort84]

According to a recent thread on this forum everyone is doing the 2 fingers anyway, so everyone will sign, right?

Hahaha, that's funny. I remember that thread, and I remember thinking, ha! Some people must not be responding, or some people are fibbing a bit = )

I think it would be great to implement something like this for flashes and cranks. I really don't have a problem with a reasonably tight cavesson/flash (my horse responds 100% differently with just 1 hole tighter cavesson setting, but he's got a few leftover neuroses from his past...), but those cranks can reeeeeally crank. And when they have felt/cotton strips underneath to pad it more, it just looks ridiculous.

I get that horses at upper levels often have nervous mouths, but a severely cranked crank looks just as bad to me (worse) than one that just fidgets with the bit more than they "should." Many upper level horses develop some ticks due to the level of contained energy, not saying it's to be overlooked, just that, it's expected to a certain extent. So those ridiculously tight cranks hardly fool anyone.

That being said, I'm not sure how they can effectively create a standard that works and is "standard," but it seems to me they could come up with some sort of "two-fingers" device that is standardized. Sort of like a "hand" has been standardized to 4 inches. Seems plausible. Maybe a little standard 2-finger stick could be carried around by officials to be squeezed underneath flashes, haha. It would also have to be standardized as to where the two fingers is measured, I'm assuming under the chin, but that would be an area for people to fudge a bit if it's not specified.

Anyway, good idea in theory.

[ToN Farm]

It's a totally ridiculous idea.

[slc2]

I think it's great!

It would be a revolution!

Instead of just 'giving someone the finger', we could buy this device, and give them a 'standard finger'!

DAYUM! I want one of my own!

[Tiffani B]

They should also regulate the tightness of girths, the thickness of saddle pads and the amount of tension allowed on the reins.

[OnyxThePony]

Only two fingers worth of indent around the flash? I dunno... might be some crazy runaways...

oh me-ow onyx put your claws away :lol:

Now if they ever try to regulate two fingers of scotch after the ride..

[Sebastian]

:lol:

Now if they ever try to regulate two fingers of scotch after the ride..

Yes, I would riot over that one too... :winkgrin:

For those who think it's "ridiculous", please elaborate. Do you think it's unenforcable? Do you think it's a non-issue? :confused:

Enquiring minds and all that... ;)
Seb

[slc2]

Well for one thing, you can put two fingers in a flash or noseband that has been cranked up with a girth tightener so tight it indents the horse's nose an inch...that would be the FIRST problem......:lol:

[Touchstone Farm]

Good idea in theory, but in practice, unenforceable. How do you determine "two fingers?" Smaller horse do you have to find an enforcer with proportionately smaller fingers and for the draft-type, do you have to find the sumo wrestler so you can borrow his fingers?

I understand and agree with the idea, but...

[lizathenag]

there will be a standard two fingers bar made of platinum that they will keep in Paris. . .(next to the meter bar)

[Ghazzu]

Make it easy, then.
Omit the cavesson :D (ducking and running...)

[Trevelyan96]

Two fingers, one finger, who cares! Let the show managers vote on who has the most standard size finger, but jeez... lets please start somewhere! I am so tired of seeing horses with fat bulging out from under and over their nosebands and huge bumps that weren't put there by god just because someone thinks its a mortal sin to be seen with a horse that can actually open its mouth a hundrenth of a centimeter.

[lalahartma1]

I think it's a great idea.

[ise@ssl]

In response to the comment - who's fingers. I've NEVER seen a CHILD doing bit checks at recognized shows. So that comment makes no sense. Yes there would be a difference between hand sizes but I think the POINT is obvious. Stop clamping horses' mouths SHUT.

[monstrpony]

Make it easy, then.
Omit the cavesson :D (ducking and running...)

:yes::yes::yes::D

[bort84]

Well for one thing, you can put two fingers in a flash or noseband that has been cranked up with a girth tightener so tight it indents the horse's nose an inch...that would be the FIRST problem......:lol:

Wouldn't that depend on where you put the fingers? (That sounds so weird, haha.) I think it would be hard to put two fingers underneath the bony part of the jaw on a very tight crank (maybe a flash though). You could slip them in on the softer parts of the face or in the dip between the bones, but if the spot is specified where there needs to be 2 fingers (I'd think the bony underside) that could maybe work.

Also, it seems like the same standard could probably be used on horses of different sizes without that much of a proportion issue.

Anyway, I'll say again that this will likely never happen because it's probably too hard to implement. But I think you probably could have some sort of standard "finger" stick (haha, again, sounds so strange/bad!) that the bit/bridle checker could slip under the cavesson/flash.

I don't know, it's a start to try to take the reliance off a super tight flash/crank, though perhaps not feasible. Interesting thought though.

[Tiffani B]

Since every horse is an individual there should be some leeway on this. Even one finger is still loose - it's not clamped. Heck, even half a finger is still giving the horse room to move. Clamped so tight that skin bulges out around the leather? Inexcusable - and glaringly obvious to all observing.

I think perhaps a rule written in general terms would be more reasonable. But to say all horses have to go with two fingers or more of room is taking away a person's right to fine tune their horse, and not allowing for individuality in equines.

Maybe some photos to show the "limits" of face bulging allowed (as in, none :cool:) and examples of what will be penalized. In the ASB world we have a few diagrams to assist judges in defining certain rules about what is allowed/desirable/not allowed/wrong and it definitely helps both judges and competitors understand.

My earlier response, though tongue in cheek, was made to make a point. If the point of this rule is "horse comfort" why not regulate absolutely everything that might affect their comfort? And where does it stop? :no:

[webmistress32]

you can't eliminate abuse with regulations.

the Tenn Walker people are living proof of that ...

[bort84]

Since every horse is an individual there should be some leeway on this. Even one finger is still loose - it's not clamped. Heck, even half a finger is still giving the horse room to move. Clamped so tight that skin bulges out around the leather? Inexcusable - and glaringly obvious to all observing.

I think perhaps a rule written in general terms would be more reasonable. But to say all horses have to go with two fingers or more of room is taking away a person's right to fine tune their horse, and not allowing for individuality in equines.

Maybe some photos to show the "limits" of face bulging allowed (as in, none :cool:) and examples of what will be penalized. In the ASB world we have a few diagrams to assist judges in defining certain rules about what is allowed/desirable/not allowed/wrong and it definitely helps both judges and competitors understand.

My earlier response, though tongue in cheek, was made to make a point. If the point of this rule is "horse comfort" why not regulate absolutely everything that might affect their comfort? And where does it stop? :no:


Yeah, I agree with two fingers likely being way too much room on a cavesson, and that a strict "two-finger" rule would take away some of the fine tuning abilities. I don't use flashes all that often, so I'm not sure what amount would be appropriate there, but I'm sure the same problem would arise. This is an area they'd definitely have to take some time to figure out if this idea is to be even potentially considered as a rule.

I honestly have no problem with a pretty darn tight cavesson, but some of those cranks with felt underneath just look awful! And I'm pretty immune to and accepting of bad looking things coming from the saddleseat world, haha. A super tight crank tends to create a lot of poll pressure in addition to the obvious jaw clamping issues. And it's not the crank cavesson itself; I like a crank because they seem to be more adjustable and fit better if you're careful to avoid a pinch.

I'm not really sure how they could come to an agreement on an appropriate measurement, and I'd imagine pictures of what isn't good would probably be too subjective and lead to a lot of disagreement any time someone was fined/disqualified/whatever.

So, while this idea is nice in theory, it probably isn't going to work. I was just saying that if "two-fingers" were for some reason to become the standard, I don't think that part would be that hard to implement. The hard part would be getting everyone to agree on some sort of measurement that is reasonable... Unlikley.

[flshgordon]

The text of this petition is laughable and makes the entire thing completely unenforceable. Seriously....THIS is how you word something in order to get people to sign a petition???:no:

While I don't disagree with the fact that some people crank their nosebands or flash too tight, this is never going to pass written in such "idealistic drivel". You can't quantify something by saying "everyone in the whole world has done it this way forever so that it did not need to be written down". That's complete BS....everyone in the world has not 'always done it this way'.

If you want to promote a new rule or whatever, it needs to be quantifiable either by prohibiting the piece of equipment, giving a measurement (sorry fingers do not qualify as a measurement) or proving some injury to the horse (like a scientific study that a horse can't breathe with a flash on).

[flshgordon]

then of course there is the person who commented on that petition saying "a dressage horse is not correctly trained if it cannot go in a bitless bridle"

sheesh :no:

[Tiffani B]

How about simply saying that if you gently grasp the noseband on the underside, you should be able to move it, both up and down and side to side? That it cannot be embedded into the flesh so deeply there is no movement possible?

Even on my horse, who sometimes wears what I consider a "tight" cavesson, the noseband can easily be moved up and down his face a few millimeters. And some days, he works without a cavesson... I adjust it on a daily basis depending on what degree of ADD he wakes up with that morning. :winkgrin:

[RoeVee]

Good in theory - nightmare to enforce. What is tight for one person, isn't tight for someone else. Subjectivity is never good for rules. Needs to be more black and white. Do away with flashes, cranks, et al would be enforceable - but that isn't the right answer either.

[class]

meh. i signed it. everything else in dressage is a judgement call, but this judgement call is apparently going to be impossible to make? :rolleyes:

[Elatu]

And search people's tack boxes for the set of pliers that they are tightening up the flash and the cavesson with! I've seen it done.
If these "yo-yo's" trainers would learn how to ride/train themselves, they would'nt be putting the poor horses under this duress.
About time someone put some motion forth to stop this.
Where knowledge ends abuse begins.

[Sebastian]

The text of this petition is laughable and makes the entire thing completely unenforceable. Seriously....THIS is how you word something in order to get people to sign a petition???:no:

While I don't disagree with the fact that some people crank their nosebands or flash too tight, this is never going to pass written in such "idealistic drivel". You can't quantify something by saying "everyone in the whole world has done it this way forever so that it did not need to be written down". That's complete BS....everyone in the world has not 'always done it this way'.

If you want to promote a new rule or whatever, it needs to be quantifiable either by prohibiting the piece of equipment, giving a measurement (sorry fingers do not qualify as a measurement) or proving some injury to the horse (like a scientific study that a horse can't breathe with a flash on).

Ok, this is going to sound snarky -- and I REALLY don't mean it that way...but... :winkgrin:

Are you saying that because the petition is poorly worded, you feel that it's pointless -- or do you legitimately disagree with the intention?

I realize the petition is not a "work of art" but I think this movement is in it's infancy and it's not meant to "be the rule change" just an "announcement" (for lack of a better word) that competitors see a problem that they would like addressed by the FEI...

Seb :)

[Sebastian]

meh. i signed it. everything else in dressage is a judgement call, but this judgement call is apparently going to be impossible to make? :rolleyes:

Exactly. Isn't just about EVERYTHING in Dressage subjective? I fail to see how there can not be some kind of reasonable standard achieved.

Not to go off on a tangent (but, here I go :lol: ) similar justification is used to support the FEI's zero tolerance of drugs. Since we can't ASK horses how they feel, we can't know what's therapeutic and what's enhancement. I find that ridiculous in this day and age. They just don't want to do the work involved with coming up with proper guidelines. :mad:

But, back to the two-finger rule... :yes: :winkgrin:
Seb :)

[1faith]

I would love to sign the petition where do I sign!!

[Sebastian]

I would love to sign the petition where do I sign!!

Link is in my OP. Thanks!
Seb :)

[ChelseaA]

They should also regulate the tightness of girths, the thickness of saddle pads and the amount of tension allowed on the reins.

hahaha
agreed!
Though I am totally against the cranking of nosebands/flashes, don't get me wrong.

[Elatu]

They should also regulate the ..............and the amount of tension allowed on the reins.

But then the FEI/NF's would have to re-educate the judges.

[merrygoround]

One would hope that sooner or later someone would realize that tightening the nose band to Cerebus's Gate really doesn't accomplish the desired result.

Perhaps we need an education commitee at each competition. :yes: :yes: :yes:

[lewin]

Alternately we could change the rules that deduct points whenever a horse shows a hint of tongue. No need to overtighten the noseband if you aren't penalised for horses that just like to play with their tongue.

[canyonoak]

I guess I am not getting the point of another rule to clutter the landscape.

At our shows in California, TD's and ring steward personnel check nosebands now.

No one I've seen seems to have a problem with this. At all.
And I am talking local shows right through CDI's-- no problems.

If you want a rule complaining about modern dressage in all its abuse, yadda-yadda, then word the petition that way. Saying nosebands,etc., but meaning The Big Picture is just...useless.

[Petstorejunkie]

I think we should go a step further and do away with flsh nosebands in competition all together... useless pieces of crap i say.
if you want to activate the longitudinal axis use a drop noseband.
if you want to clamp your horses mouth shut, you need equitation lessons and a good equine dentist.

[bort84]

At our shows in California, TD's and ring steward personnel check nosebands now.

No one I've seen seems to have a problem with this. At all.
And I am talking local shows right through CDI's-- no problems.

What do they check? If they check tightness, are there guidelines for what is too tight or not? Just wondering if they've written a rule somewhere about it because I can't imagine people not getting huffy if a steward were to say their noseband was too tight if there aren't very specific rules about it. I'm just wondering how they go about it and what exactly they're looking for.

@ Lewin - I'm not sure how much the rules about tounges showing should change because, in my experience, most horses that loll their tongues out have bridle issues or have had bridle issues. Granted, once the habit starts, it can be very difficult to cure, so there are horses that eventually are doing it more for habit than out of nerves/pain/etc. Still, I think enough people feel that showing the tongue is often a sign of something negative and probably would continue to over tighten nosebands to compensate. Also, even if the judges aren't supposed to knock you down for a tongue showing, I'd bet that most would still take out points somewhere because it just creates a less relaxed and happy looking picture (so does a really tight crank though, haha).

So, though a tongue hanging out certainly bothers the horse less than a tight crank, not penalizing for the tongue would not fix the root of the crank or tongue problem. And, I think the behavior is something that should be knocked down since a judge can't always accurately determine who's doing it for "fun" and who's doing it because they're irritated.

[canyonoak]

USEF Rulebook, DR 121, # 4: a noseband may never be so tight as to cause irritation to the skin.

Out here, TD's seem to assume if they cannot slide a finger or two under the noseband it is too tight. And yes, I have seen competitors asked to loosen the noseband a hole and they comply with good grace.

Which is what I meant when I said there does not seem to be a big problem here.

This is called acting in a sensible manner.

[Dune]

Why am I envisioning a TD checking for noseband tightness, the fingers get stuck, the horse freaks out and suddenly you have a ridden horse flying around the arena with the TD in tow???!!!!:eek: (or I am the only one with such an active imagination??:lol:)

[bort84]

USEF Rulebook, DR 121, # 4: a noseband may never be so tight as to cause irritation to the skin.

Out here, TD's seem to assume if they cannot slide a finger or two under the noseband it is too tight. And yes, I have seen competitors asked to loosen the noseband a hole and they comply with good grace.

Which is what I meant when I said there does not seem to be a big problem here.

This is called acting in a sensible manner.

Well that makes sense (I'm not extremely well versed with the rule book, so I had forgotten that one). Maybe they need to better define "irritation." Like, if the crank is so tight that you have to put cotton/felt padding underneath it to prevent skin irritation, perhaps it is too tight, haha.

It would be nice if there were some sort of specific standard set though, because you know there are some people that will get their panties in a twist... And there are also probably some stewards that might be a little too extreme on how loose something should be.

Good to know it does happen in some areas though with some success.

[fuzzy.pony]

I think we should go a step further and do away with flsh nosebands in competition all together... useless pieces of crap i say.

Uneducated opinion, I say. The flash is very useful for horses who need a little extra stabilization for the bit, ones who also need the stability of a cavesson as opposed to a drop.

Like, if the crank is so tight that you have to put cotton/felt padding underneath it to prevent skin irritation, perhaps it is too tight, haha.

I think many who use additional padding, like cotton or felt or whatever, under a noseband do it for additional cushion and comfort, not to prevent skin irritation.

The number of nosebands I see that are too tight every year are VERY few. Maybe I just live in parts of the country with more erudite horsemen. A two-finger "rule" is bogus.

[TBDQ0328]

[Like, if the crank is so tight that you have to put cotton/felt padding underneath it to prevent skin irritation, perhaps it is too tight, haha.
.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that its safe to assume that everyone who uses cotton/felt padding has their noseband too tight. I use a half-inch thick piece of felt under my crank INSTEAD of the leather padding piece because the leather piece was way too small, sat on the jaw bones and rubbed like crazy. The felt does prevent skin irrataion because covers the entire back of the jaw not because its too tight. You can move my noseband up and down and side to side, stick a finger under it and put atleast 2-3 side by side under the flash. My trainer uses felt under her regular noseband because of where the buckle sits on her horse's jaw.
I think that the noseband has to have some give - I mean the horse has to MOVE its jaw to chew and accept the bit. Some people choose to use the imcorrectly (too tight) in a way that causes discomfort to their horse - and these people either need a better education or need to learn that doing so is not ok! But just because a person chooses to a crank or have extra padding doesn't automatically mean that their noseband is too tight - their might actually be a reason for their use!

[Jealoushe]

The number of nosebands I see that are too tight every year are VERY few. Maybe I just live in parts of the country with more erudite horsemen. A two-finger "rule" is bogus.

If no one is breaking the rule in your area, than the rule wouldn't be a problem, and shouldn't bother you:cool:

[bort84]

I don't think that its safe to assume that everyone who uses cotton/felt padding has their noseband too tight. I use a half-inch thick piece of felt under my crank INSTEAD of the leather padding piece because the leather piece was way too small, sat on the jaw bones and rubbed like crazy. The felt does prevent skin irrataion because covers the entire back of the jaw not because its too tight. You can move my noseband up and down and side to side, stick a finger under it and put atleast 2-3 side by side under the flash. My trainer uses felt under her regular noseband because of where the buckle sits on her horse's jaw.
I think that the noseband has to have some give - I mean the horse has to MOVE its jaw to chew and accept the bit. Some people choose to use the imcorrectly (too tight) in a way that causes discomfort to their horse - and these people either need a better education or need to learn that doing so is not ok! But just because a person chooses to a crank or have extra padding doesn't automatically mean that their noseband is too tight - their might actually be a reason for their use!

My apologies. I didn't mean to make a sweeping generalization like that (I usually catch myself and add a disclaimer before, haha), so try not to take offense. What I was picturing in my mind when mentioning the padding is some of those upper level horses with pros on them (who know better but also know that a tense mouth is less noticeable with a tight crank) that have leather padded cranks plus extra padding underneath but still have skin bulging out all over the place and you can see the horse does not have a calm looking mouth at all.

I think a super tight cavesson/flash is less of an issue generally at lower levels because the horses are working on a more relaxed level. Anyway, didn't mean to offend the padders out there. I know some horses have extra sensitive bits = ) I just meant that there are definitely those out there that have to put in extra padding because of the tightness of the noseband.

[Sebastian]

USEF Rulebook, DR 121, # 4: a noseband may never be so tight as to cause irritation to the skin.

Out here, TD's seem to assume if they cannot slide a finger or two under the noseband it is too tight. And yes, I have seen competitors asked to loosen the noseband a hole and they comply with good grace.

Which is what I meant when I said there does not seem to be a big problem here.

This is called acting in a sensible manner.

That's good to know. I've yet to see or experience that, but I applaud the TDs who are doing it.

Seb :)

[flshgordon]

Ok, this is going to sound snarky -- and I REALLY don't mean it that way...but... :winkgrin:

Are you saying that because the petition is poorly worded, you feel that it's pointless -- or do you legitimately disagree with the intention?

I realize the petition is not a "work of art" but I think this movement is in it's infancy and it's not meant to "be the rule change" just an "announcement" (for lack of a better word) that competitors see a problem that they would like addressed by the FEI...

Seb :)

I didn't think that was snarky :D

And no, I would not support the petition unless it is addressing a specific thing that is being violated. It would have to be some measurable rule. Like someone said.....what if the next thing is "your girth is too tight"? I don't disagree with the intention to keep horses from harm, but I also don't feel there are many horses being truly harmed by this. It leaves the door open for "PETA" type rules about dressage. I don't like the way this petition implies that the whole world has always had this accepted rule. That's simply not true.

I have never seen someone tighten a noseband with pliers and holy crap, I hope if you see that, you notify the TD! Or I hope the poor horse takes care of the person for us!!! :winkgrin:

I just don't see this as big of a problem as some people seem to. I am sure there are some who overdo it, but few and far between. I've seen maybe one ever that I thought someone needed to do something about.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

So, if you're like me, and you take the flash off your bridle and never use it...you could avoid the whole two finger issue.

[Sebastian]

LOL. Although I think Ted would support a two "peep" rule... :lol:

Seb :)

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

A minimum of two peeps in that rule!

[Karoline]

Two months ago I attended a dissection clinic. The poor pony's nose was dented where the noseband had been tightned all its life. We looked at a corresponding skull and could see that the nose cartilage showed a depression as well. What made it really sad was that when we opened its jaw and looked at its dentition, the horse had clearly had no dental work in forever. The top molars were overgrown and had driven the bottom molars into the gums, there were large open abscesses in the back of the mouth. I can imagine how this horse must have felt with the bit and how it may have tried opening its mouth only to have its rider tighten the noseband.

I vote for 2 fingers to.

[mjmvet]

*giggle* I looked at the title, and thought it was referring to 'two fingers of gin' or 'two fingers of scotch'....I think that should be a prerequisite before going in the ring! =)

I take the whole cavesson off myself. No hiding anything then!

[godoget]

Two months ago I attended a dissection clinic. The poor pony's nose was dented where the noseband had been tightned all its life. We looked at a corresponding skull and could see that the nose cartilage showed a depression as well. What made it really sad was that when we opened its jaw and looked at its dentition, the horse had clearly had no dental work in forever. The top molars were overgrown and had driven the bottom molars into the gums, there were large open abscesses in the back of the mouth. I can imagine how this horse must have felt with the bit and how it may have tried opening its mouth only to have its rider tighten the noseband.

I vote for 2 fingers to.

I've seen something similar to what you are describing. THAT WAS NOT DUE TO A CRANK! More likely, it was due to a too small halter that was left on 24/7 or nearly so. I don't think you could cause that kind of damage even if you used a pair of pliers to tighten the nose band. Unless of course you left the horse in the bridle all the time. And, obviously, a tight halter wasn't that poor creature's only problem. That being said, I think a very tight nose band, like a lot of other things, can serve a purpose in training as a very short term fix. If you have to go into the show ring that way, it is a crutch. I'm not sure how really abusive it is, unless you employee pliers (that blows my mind). I've seen some horses in pretty damned tight nose bands that managed to take and chew treats. Felts or fleeces can also be used for making nosebands tighter, by the way.

[Fixerupper]

the horse had clearly had no dental work in forever.

Perhaps the stewards should be checking whether the horse should be floated as well?

[ise@ssl]

It's difficult for me to believe people have not seen overtight cavesons and flashes at Dressage Shows. And the bit check is very often done AFTER the ride - and I can't imagine that the riders who are told the noseband or flash is too tight would ever say they won't change it. They should probably do the bit check on the way INTO the ring and have the rider make the change to the caveson or flash BEFORE the ride.

For those who really feel this isn't such a bad thing. I would ask you to ride your next Dressage test with your teeth clenched together and see the affect it has on not just your teeth but specifically our JAW and your NECK and by the end of your ride you will probably be feeling it in your shoulders and back.

I would also add that you shouldn't think those people using crank nosebands are worse than those using regular cavesons. And the pliers use is ABSOLUTELY HAPPENING.

[Sebastian]

I've seen something similar to what you are describing. THAT WAS NOT DUE TO A CRANK! More likely, it was due to a too small halter that was left on 24/7 or nearly so. I don't think you could cause that kind of damage even if you used a pair of pliers to tighten the nose band. Unless of course you left the horse in the bridle all the time. And, obviously, a tight halter wasn't that poor creature's only problem. That being said, I think a very tight nose band, like a lot of other things, can serve a purpose in training as a very short term fix. If you have to go into the show ring that way, it is a crutch. I'm not sure how really abusive it is, unless you employee pliers (that blows my mind). I've seen some horses in pretty damned tight nose bands that managed to take and chew treats. Felts or fleeces can also be used for making nosebands tighter, by the way.

With all due respect, I must disagree. Per FEI judges my friends and I have spoken with -- autopsies have been done on some very well known horses (no, I'm not going to name names) and several of those competitors had crushed AND broken noses -- the cartilage was completely broken down in the area where a "too tight" nose band would have been. So even if you don't want to believe that there's an issue with the simple bio-mechanics of the horse's mouth...there really is an issue with what is essentially -- cruelty.

And, I'm actually glad for you if you've never seen a BNT (or any crap trainer for that matter) pull out the pliers...but it does happen, much more frequently than any of us would like to acknowledge.

It's bad enough what some of these horses go through at home, a place totally out of our control... But, I just don't see why it's so bad to want to at LEAST clean up the show grounds.

I really do recommend Jimmy Wofford's article to anyone who's curious about this...it's available online. You don't need a subscription to read it... And, then you don't just have to take my word for it. :winkgrin:

As usual, JMHO.
Seb :)

[canyonoak]

<< Per FEI judges my friends and I have spoken with -- autopsies have been done on some very well known horses (no, I'm not going to name names) and several of those competitors had crushed AND broken noses -- the cartilage was completely broken down in the area where a "too tight" nose band would have been. So even if you don't want to believe that there's an issue with the simple bio-mechanics of the horse's mouth...there really is an issue with what is essentially -- cruelty.>>

The horse is wearing a "too tight" noseband for an hour a day and has crushed bones?

And KEEPS ON wearing this noseband every day for a few years? Several years?

And who is doing these autopsies?

Oh come on...

[Dune]

I've seen something similar to what you are describing. THAT WAS NOT DUE TO A CRANK! More likely, it was due to a too small halter that was left on 24/7 or nearly so. I don't think you could cause that kind of damage even if you used a pair of pliers to tighten the nose band. Unless of course you left the horse in the bridle all the time. .

Exactly!! :yes:

Perhaps the stewards should be checking whether the horse should be floated as well?

Ha, ha, good one!;)



For those who really feel this isn't such a bad thing. I would ask you to ride your next Dressage test with your teeth clenched together

.

Ride my tests like that all the time! :lol:

<< Per FEI judges my friends and I have spoken with -- autopsies have been done on some very well known horses (no, I'm not going to name names) and several of those competitors had crushed AND broken noses -- the cartilage was completely broken down in the area where a "too tight" nose band would have been. So even if you don't want to believe that there's an issue with the simple bio-mechanics of the horse's mouth...there really is an issue with what is essentially -- cruelty.>>

The horse is wearing a "too tight" noseband for an hour a day and has crushed bones?

And KEEPS ON wearing this noseband every day for a few years? Several years?

And who is doing these autopsies?

Oh come on...

Unbelievable, sounds like urban legend to me too. :rolleyes:

[ise@ssl]

So Dune - I'm gathering from you posts that you think this is funny? OK? Not detrimental to the horse?

[Sebastian]

Well, I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree with you, canyonoak, et. al...we are frequently on the opposite side of "what constitutes abuse" in horse training...

But, I can tell you this little story...it happened to me personally.

Back when I had my horse Echo (the ex-GP horse that was trained within an inch of his life...), I loaned him to a friend who was going to a lower-level dressage show because her horse went lame. At the time she was taking lessons with a trainer at the barn that I did not care for, so I told her the condition was that the trainer could NOT get on and ride him under any circumstances. Fine...terms accepted. Then, trainer decided that he needed to wear a flash because he wasn't coming through...(what's wrong with THAT picture) So my friend came and asked me if that was ok. I said sure, but he hates them so don't make it too tight. And, honestly, you just need more leg. He's a warmblood and lazy. My friend laughed, agreed, but the flash was still added to make the trainer happy. THEN, during the next lesson, trainer decided flash was "too loose." She then proceeded to tighten the flash SO TIGHT that when my friend picked up the reins to ride, Echo was SO PISSED he threw is head to the ground and pulled her off over his head... She related this story to me later... I told her to loosen it if she wanted to continue with him and she agreed.

Not long after this episode (and some others that had proceeded), the trainer took in a young horse and proceeded to leave a bridle on it (with a loose ring bit) 24/7. The horse had a bloody mouth after EVERY meal.

Same trainer had another rider point out one day in the ring that her horse's mouth was bleeding. All she did was shrug it off and continue -- after making a rude comment to the person who pointed out the blood.

She would also ride EVERY HORSE with two whips which she used frequently and left lots of welts on all of them...

Eventually a group of us got together and went to the BO and said -- either you ask her to leave or WE all leave. Thankfully, they drop kicked her.

So, I guess my question to those of you who "poo poo" this whole issue... When DO you take off the rose colored glasses???

And, if you HONESTLY can tell me you've NEVER SEEN a horse abused in the name of "training" -- you are very lucky indeed.

Oh, and if you want names -- PM me. This trainer is still quite a presence in the CA dressage community.

Seb :)

[Karoline]

I've seen something similar to what you are describing. THAT WAS NOT DUE TO A CRANK! More likely, it was due to a too small halter that was left on 24/7 or nearly so. I don't think you could cause that kind of damage even if you used a pair of pliers to tighten the nose band. Unless of course you left the horse in the bridle all the time. And, obviously, a tight halter wasn't that poor creature's only problem. That being said, I think a very tight nose band, like a lot of other things, can serve a purpose in training as a very short term fix. If you have to go into the show ring that way, it is a crutch. I'm not sure how really abusive it is, unless you employee pliers (that blows my mind). I've seen some horses in pretty damned tight nose bands that managed to take and chew treats. Felts or fleeces can also be used for making nosebands tighter, by the way.


I do not agree, I have seen other skulls showing that damage presented by german vets and it was attributed to the tight noseband. When you consider that the growth plates (bones) do not close until a horse is between 6 and 8 and that horses are started now earlier and earlier - 2 1/2 to 3 even for warmbloods you can imagine the damage that can be done on the cartilages of the nose which are very slim even in adult age when the noseband is cranked very tight. Understand that I have seen riders use a girth tightner to tighten nosebands - I am not talking snug.

Its not just halters left in the field on semi abandoned horses though I am sure that can and does happen.

[bort84]

I'd tend to agree that a slight dent could be caused by a noseband. It does seem silly, but I've known horses who had one that I'm pretty sure did not get it from being in a too tight halter when little... Like a lesson horse that wears a bridle a lot and gets a very tight cavesson because he's not the happiest in the mouth.

Now, I'll admit it seems a bit far fetched, but I think it's certainly a possibility that shouldn't immediately be called out as completely ridiculous since none of us have a good proving/disproving story. And it doesn't have to be a very big dent for it to still be kind of disconcerting.

Anyway, though I think it's good to bring the issue into the light more, it's probably a rule that will be difficult to pass with anymore severity than how it currently stands - skin shouldn't bulge, etc. Also, it does get to the point where you have to decide how far you can regulate a horse's discomfort without getting too PETA.

Still, it's frustrating to me to see top riders in obviously overly tight cranks/flashes at large televised shows. That's the kind of thing I expect in your standard breed show disciplines but do not wish to see in a disciplince that prides itself on its classic values and traditions, etc. It's a bad thing for the sport and its image. Obviously some people are going to go all cynical on me and say "well modern dressage has nothing to do with classical dressage" but still. It should, and if we ignore these issues, we get away from what dressage is about - harmony between horse and rider created by the highest levels of training, not by using gadgets dressage people give every other discipline grief for.

And again, I started in the saddle seat world and have seen and used a lot of techniques that outsiders would consider questionable since they have no idea how it works or what the end goal is, so I have a pretty strong stomach for alternative training methods. But, I love dressage for the reason that most of its participants don't use that kind of stuff. People that do generally do so quietly because they know it's frowned upon. Shoot, people harrassed me just for using a running martingale on a horse that really needed it to get over some training issues from his shady past, haha.

[Fixerupper]

My take on this 'discussion' isn't that anyone here disagrees that bad trainers abuse horses... I believe that a bad trainer/rider can take ANY piece of equipment and make it abusive.
The point apparently is - should the FEI regulate how tight a nose band should be?
We 'socialists' in Canada don't even have that many rules. ;)

[bort84]

My take on this 'discussion' isn't that anyone here disagrees that bad trainers abuse horses... I believe that a bad trainer/rider can take ANY piece of equipment and make it abusive.
The point apparently is - should the FEI regulate how tight a nose band should be?
We 'socialists' in Canada don't even have that many rules. ;)

You're right, I just think that I think it's important in most areas of life to have people speak up about things they don't like even if it won't make much of a difference (like those crazy left wingers and right ringers - if we can just meet in the middle, we'd have perfection, haha). That way even if appropriate rules really can't be passed, at least it's known that something is frowned upon - I haven't actually read this petition, but it seems that maybe it's written a little too, um, broadly and PETA-esque, which is unfortunate if that's the case.

As far as the FEI regulating noseband tightness... I'm on the fence. They do bit checks, and only very specific (and quite mild) bits are allowed. It's not that much of a stretch to see that a noseband tightness could be regulated as well. I don't think it's the same as a tight girth, and it can't be marked down at this point like too tight reins can be. Perhaps we could make it a judging thing? Since all of that is subjective anyway, haha. That'd sure open up a can of worms!

Because of the other regulations in the discipline (no martingales, no crazy bits, no gadgets on show grounds, etc), it seems in keeping with the spirit of the discipline to check nosebands. If this could be implemented fairly and with a reasonable measurement (two fingers would be a LOT on a cavesson), I think it makes sense.

Now if they went into the saddle seat world, where waaaaaaay crazier things are allowed, I think you'd see some trouble making it work. In dressage though, it just makes sense to me. A too tight cavesson/flash is the same as a "gadget" in my mind and it detracts from the whole picture.

It's less of an abuse thing to me (there are way worse things happening elsewhere anyway) and more of an incorrect thing that should be marked down. So again, maybe it could be taken into account in judging. It certainly takes away from a relaxed image just like a tongue hanging out or a severely overflexed nose does.

Just my thoughts. Not sure if it could work and be standardized without seeming too "don't hurt the poor wittle horsie," but I think it probably should be penalized in some way.

[Fixerupper]

For some time now, at the the higher levels, they are not looking for relaxed in any case :no:.

[bort84]

For some time now, at the the higher levels, they are not looking for relaxed in any case :no:.

Haha, fair enough. I'll admit I often like the slightly more energetic performances (and the fancy movers that I know aren't to everyone's taste) but there's definitely a fine line to travel so that the horses don't get so hot they can't do the movements freely and without tension.

[Fixerupper]

Yup :)

[ise@ssl]

Well perhaps in this day of phones that take photos we all have the opportunity to "snap" a few photos at horse shows or when horses are being tacked up (with pliers) at horse shows and post them on BB's or send them to the USEF and other organizations - with the simple captions - Is This O.K???

We have lots of websites showing bad things that are being done to horses by run down farms and people with little horse knowledge but lots of aggressive training - let's STOP KIDDING OURSELVES THAT THEY ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO STEP OVER THE LINE OF WHAT'S RIGHT OR WRONG.

[Dune]

So Dune - I'm gathering from you posts that you think this is funny? OK? Not detrimental to the horse?

Don't be ridiculous, but I don't believe the exaggerations either.:no:

[slc2]

Where are all the vile people putting the nosebands so tight?:)

And pliers? Heck, people used to talk about seeing people tighten them with a girth tightener...maybe tings are actually better now!

And, if a TD thinks equipment is adjusted improperly, s/he DOES have the ability and the authority to do something about it. And actually, I think they already do. I think the rule being proposed is superfluous. TD's stop things they feel are overly much.

[freestyle2music]

I didn't go through this whole thread, so maybee it was mentioned already.

When we talk about a low noseband the two finger rule would be welcomed, but with a high noseband this will seriously hurt the skin of the horse.

Theo

[amastrike]

Nosebands should be optional. If dressage is about willing harmony between horse and rider, isn't it more harmonious to have a horse who is obedient and not resistant without a noseband to restrict his ability to resist the bit?

[ise@ssl]

Now that would be a fun Challenge Class - to have riders come in and ride at the level they normally compete in WITHOUT cavesons!! Then see how the scores vary..........tee hee

[Sebastian]

Now that would be a fun Challenge Class - to have riders come in and ride at the level they normally compete in WITHOUT cavesons!! Then see how the scores vary..........tee hee

:lol: :lol:
I might even PAY money to see that!! :winkgrin:

Seb :)

p.s. Here's an article (http://horsesforlife.com/content/view/1375/1221/) written by one of the proponents of the rule.

[ise@ssl]

Really this could be a great fundraiser. The winners would be those who scored above or as close to their highest score in the same test at the show.

[ise@ssl]

Seb -
This could be called the Caveson Cup Challenge~

[Sebastian]

Seb -
This could be called the Caveson Cup Challenge~

:lol: LOL :lol:

Love it! EXCELLENT use of alliteration too!
Seb :)

[starkissed]

I like the idea of loose mouth ties. I have never been a huge fan of them anyway(it gets in the way of my horses eating grass haha) But it shouldn't be that hard to implement in theory, it all depends on people doing bit checks at the dressage test.
2 fingers however is the most ridiculous measurement. You can fit 2 fingers under the tightest band around the nose. I don't have a good measure off the top of mye head though. Maybe finger width under the chin, where there in bone. If that makes sense