Need Advice I'm worried

[ljshorses]

I have been breeding for quite awhile and have had the pleasure to work with some very nice stallion owners so maybe I have become spoiled? I won a breeding to at stallion through a reputable organization last year. Before bidding on the stallion I contacted the owner and asked since it was frozen semen if they would mind if I used it in 2009. The owner of the stallion agreed to this. I won 2 breeding doses with no live foal guarantee. Since I had an account with SBS I requested that the frozen be sent there before December 2008. I supplied all the paperwork needed for this as well as contacted SBS to be ready to receive this frozen semen. This was in Febreuary 2008 and many emails and calls were sent to stallion owner to try and set this all up. By December it was becoming quite clear that this was not going to happen. I could not get a response from the stallion owner so I contacted the organization where I won the auction and they then contacted the stallion owner who then contacted me.

I had requested to the organization a refund since the stallion owner was not communicating with me and not delivering the frozen. Well an angry stallion owner contacted me by phone and said that we had plenty of time and I need not worry. Later the next month I believe (I have saved all correspondenses but not sure without looking back at the actual date) the so said there was a issue with the frozen and would I like to have fresh instead. I said sure that would probably be best. The so owner wanted more money for the fresh. I said never mind, just send me the frozen and send it to SBS or refund me my money. The so owner never actually said what the problem was with the frozen but assured me I would be getting it.

After another month goes by and no semen I contact the so again by email and again asked for my money back. This time the so said that they would send fresh at no additional cost (other than shipping and collection). I agreed with that and told the so I planned to breed this mare early April or even possibly March. The so said no problem and just email first of March.

Well, first of March came and I emailed 3 times with no response. After 3 days of no response I called. The so answers and I proceed to say hey, I need info still like...who do I call for a collection, what days is he collected, how much notice do I need to give for a shipment, what additional fees do I need to pay and how much are they, and do you want my Fed Ex number for shipping? The so says I will email you right away a form with all the info and I need to sign the agreement and get back to them. I said great but we may need the semen as soon as a week if mare starts teasing. I then was told that they don't ship until April. I agreed to that since that is more preferable to me anyway but said then please get the info to me as soon as possible so that we can plan the breeding early April. The so said okay.

A week goes by and I get no paperwork. I email, no response, so I call. I call and so says I will get this by weekend because they are going away. I explain to them that I am now totally uncomfortable with the lack of communication and I would rather just be refunded. That I want to breed the mare in possibly just 3 weeks and nothing has ever been resolved. The so was a bit rude and said they would get my mare bred. There was not much for me to say except I was very uncomfortable and have never had such problems with any so before. They didn't even respond to my worries, they just said they would get my mare bred.

Now, am I wrong to worry? I have nothing yet from this so about the breeding. I am worried that even if I somehow get the semen and somehow am lucky enough to get mare infoal that who knows if I'd get a breeder's certificate. If communication has been this bad what can I assume? I don't want this mare to go open this year. I'd rather at this time go with a reputable so that I would know would do whatever possible to make me feel comfortable. This so imho thinks that since this is an auction win, then it just isn't a priority. I must say, it would definitely take quite a bit for me to ever even consider breeding to this stallion again. But I stand to lose well over $1000 and would at least like to feel somewhat comfortable with the situation, which I certainly do not at this time.

p.s. please forgive the very long post.

[clint]

I think you are being remarkably calm. I'm afraid that such extreme measures to get communication from this stallion owner would have sent me into orbit. I would simply want a refund, and if possible, I would love to know who this stallion owner is. ;)

[ahf]

What Clint said. You are being unbelievably reasonable. As a matter of fact, all your posts here have been thoughtful and reasonable. I would have been batsh$t by now. THe registry was perfectly happy to take you money. At this point, they should be perfectly happy to refund you.

Like Clint, I would love to save myself the trouble of ever thinking about dealing with this SO. Life's too short, and there are too many great SO's out there.

I should add that normally I'd be wondering about a backstory, and wouldn't post. But you are a very sane member of this BB community. I think you are calling it as it actually happened. You deserve better.

[CathyKb]

I think you are being remarkably calm. I'm afraid that such extreme measures to get communication from this stallion owner would have sent me into orbit. I would simply want a refund, and if possible, I would love to know who this stallion owner is. ;)

Agree!!!!!!

[Waterwitch]

I think you are being remarkably calm. I'm afraid that such extreme measures to get communication from this stallion owner would have sent me into orbit. I would simply want a refund, and if possible, I would love to know who this stallion owner is. ;)

Ditto.

I would demand a refund and not take "no" for an answer. Clearly the SO has proven to you multiple times they can not be trusted to do what they say they are going to do. You will be pissed at yourself later if you let them continue to walk all over you...particularly if you end up with no foal.

Get your money back.

[amdfarm]

Yep, all of the above! Good luck w/ whatever you decide. I wished I had your patience. :)

[ljshorses]

Thank you all for letting me vent. Much better than taking it out on hubby and kids. I really, truly have tried to get this all squared away with no luck. I am afraid though since the auction was a year ago if they would even consider refunding me? I would be happy to give the so name to help prevent this from happening to other mare owners but I don't want to publicly bash anyone. You can pm or email me if you want that info.

There are many, many SOs that are very good to work with. Mare owners can get nervous and worried easilywhen trying to juggle mare cycles, breeding dates etc.. etc... I tried to get this SO today to understand that and to realize the stress she has put me under but I really got the impression she could care less about my troubles or my $1100. Maybe that isn't a lot to everyone but with the hardships of trying to remain in business in this economy, it really is a lot to me. Plus, if I don't get that refunded then I have no money for another stud fee so then the mare remains open anyway, ugh.

I also thankyou all for your kind words. I try very hard to treat others the way I want to be treated. Sometimes it can be very hard not to lose your temper. Thanks again for letting me do this venting so as not to lose it on those I care about. I think I will take the advice and contact the registry to see if I can get a refund. I hope no one else has to go through this stress.

[Indy-lou]

You sound remarkably sane. It's too easy for some breeding related businesses (vets, stallion owners, etc.) to lose touch with the fact that lost time on a breeding cycle and other issues related to poor communication cost the mare owner dearly, not to mention the needless stress involved, which is significant in these economic times. I would call the auction registry again and offer up copies of your correspondence and ask that they refund the money. Enough fruitless effort on your part already. It is classy of you not to name the stallion owner in this board (or give hints) , and probably prudent from a legal standpoint, but business people need to wise up that in the horse business, reputation is everything, (people talk!) and eventually doing "bad" business like this will cost them in the long run. Good luck to you, I genuinely sympathize.

[classicsporthorses]

Wow, I commend you.

Possibly you just want to up the anty some when you speak with the SO or in an email to say that this is a breach of contract and you will be contacting your attorney. We'll see you in court.

That's a lot of $$ and a lot of BS from the stallion owner.

[Touchstone Farm]

I agree with all the posters here. There are so many good SOs to work with, why deal with one that is blowing you off -- and not giving you what you thought you were purchasing in the first place (frozen).

I would request a refund pronto. If they aren't forthcoming and the registry is of no help, point the SO to this thread and let them know we are all wondering who this SO is that we should avoid!

[dbaygirl]

Ditto to above posts. As an outsider looking in, it's plain to see that the SO's lack of intention was pretty much proven by December 2008. Also, given her track record and by her own admittance, there were "problems" with the frozen, why risk taking the frozen just to end the stress of interation or lack thereof with said SO just to find out that it was not viable semen? The only way to end this and/or obtain any satisfaction financially or emotionally is to send all correspondence with SO to the registry in an effort to get your money back. Unfortunately, you may not get your money back in time for breeding your mare when you originally wanted to. To speed up the process, you could make an offer to the SO. Namely: IF the registry cannot refund you in a timely manner correlating with your original breeding schedule made at the time of bidding for the breeding, the SO can have their public opportunity to defend their name on a public forum or forums, such as this one.

Question: Do registries have safety checks in place to protect mare owners from situations like this? I've had a "bad" situation with one very well known registry in the past. It appears to be a delicate legal situation when there are three separate parties to an agreement. The registry makes the money, but has no say over how the breeding donators conduct their business, thus they in some part should be held responsible for contracts obtained through them to ensure that each party measures up to what has been promised.

Can you borrow the money to breed your mare to another stallion while working out getting refunded for the auction breeding? At least you don't miss the year...good luck.

[blackstallion2]

The stallion owner has stalled and stalled and stalled....
I'd send all correspondence to the beneficiary of the auction AND the stallion owner with a certified letter requesting immediate refund. There's no harm in stating something to the effect of "failure to return 100% of the $ paid on XX date for the semen from XX stallion to your organization within 10 days of receipt of this letter shall result in further civil and/or criminal action as allowed to the fullest extent of the law."

No response to the letter = out the stallion and the auction please.

[ljshorses]

The stallion owner has stalled and stalled and stalled....
I'd send all correspondence to the beneficiary of the auction AND the stallion owner with a certified letter requesting immediate refund. There's no harm in stating something to the effect of "failure to return 100% of the $ paid on XX date for the semen from XX stallion to your organization within 10 days of receipt of this letter shall result in further civil and/or criminal action as allowed to the fullest extent of the law."

No response to the letter = out the stallion and the auction please.

Since I said I would wait until the weekend when she said I would have everything I need by then...hmmm??? I will wait until Monday and if I am still in the same boat I will take your advice. At this point I really don't trust them or the stallion station he's at.

[dbaygirl]

The stallion owner has stalled and stalled and stalled....
I'd send all correspondence to the beneficiary of the auction AND the stallion owner with a certified letter requesting immediate refund. There's no harm in stating something to the effect of "failure to return 100% of the $ paid on XX date for the semen from XX stallion to your organization within 10 days of receipt of this letter shall result in further civil and/or criminal action as allowed to the fullest extent of the law."

No response to the letter = out the stallion and the auction please.


Well said, blackstallion!!!! I second the motion.

[not again]

What a nerve wracking experience for you! I have never bought an auction breeding, and this horror story just adds to my fear of ever getting one! Egads!

[Maryanne Nicpon]

I just want to play devil's advocate here. I do not doubt a word that the original poster said and it sounds like this particular stallion owner is one to avoid. But, please don't blame the auction. I have run two major stallion service auctions for several years and yet, I am still surprised each year at the number of people who, 1. don't read the rules, 2. don't read the details of what they are bidding on, 3. never make contact with the stallion owner to get their questions answered. It is so easy to register and bid in these on-line auctions now, that people seem to be bidding who are not serious. We had one person enter bids on our three most popular stallions in one auction one year. We utilized proxy bidding, and she entered very high amounts "so she would be sure to win one". Of course, she won all three and did not want to pay for them. We managed to sell one of the breedings to the next highest bidder and she paid for two. Only having one mare, she decided to hold one over until the next year, even though it was a donation for only one season. Then she tried to threaten to sue the organization who ran the auction. It is situations like this that make good stallion owners not want to donate to the auctions.

[ljshorses]

I just want to play devil's advocate here. I do not doubt a word that the original poster said and it sounds like this particular stallion owner is one to avoid. But, please don't blame the auction. I have run two major stallion service auctions for several years and yet, I am still surprised each year at the number of people who, 1. don't read the rules, 2. don't read the details of what they are bidding on, 3. never make contact with the stallion owner to get their questions answered. It is so easy to register and bid in these on-line auctions now, that people seem to be bidding who are not serious. We had one person enter bids on our three most popular stallions in one auction one year. We utilized proxy bidding, and she entered very high amounts "so she would be sure to win one". Of course, she won all three and did not want to pay for them. We managed to sell one of the breedings to the next highest bidder and she paid for two. Only having one mare, she decided to hold one over until the next year, even though it was a donation for only one season. Then she tried to threaten to sue the organization who ran the auction. It is situations like this that make good stallion owners not want to donate to the auctions.


Well in my case, I called the SO way before I even bid. I asked if I could use it the following year since it was for frozen. I was told I could use it the following year and it was excellent quality. I realize some people get carried away with auctions but I never bid before speaking to stallion owner. I have won many bids over the years and this is the ONLY time this lack of communication and NO paperwork ever happened to me. I still have no contract or anything. I will say I got some info today that makes me feel like there is a slight possibility this may all still work out so I am hoping and will post if it gets resolved.

I have to say though, I have talked to some SOs recently that went above and beyond to help me out so I wouldn't have to leave my mare open. I have my faith restored that at least there are many kind, honest and caring people out there. I wish this had not happened but I am honored to have spoken via pm, email and phone to these wonderful people. I will for sure spread the word of their integrity to other mare owners looking for quality stallions managed by wonderful SOs. This one bad apple isn't going to spoil the bunch in my case.

[Edgar]

I agree with black stallion and it is as simple as ; you paid for frozen semen that you did not receive, that was the initial auction offer and that is what you bid on and they did not deliver. I have had this experience and am all for working things out but at some point you need to be able to go forward with your allready paid breeding or like in this case if they can not deliver, get a refund. Seems to me that point has passed.

[patch work farm]

Hmm, although I agree you are calm about it, many years ago I got burned twice and just swore off of the auctions altogether.

In the first scenario, my mare got in foal but aborted the foal 3 months before her due date (then I found out the stallion was positive for EVA and ONLY after my mare aborted did anyone else find this out-despite asking in advance). After that fiasco, I stayed away from that stallion and chalked up my loss since I couldn't really prove that is why she lost the foal (necropsy didn't provide proof).

The second scenario was a mess with the SO (who I also called before bidding)from day one, I gave up on even trying to breed to him. Eventually he was sold and the new SO actually honored the breeding, I just had to pay collection fees and a new booking fee.

Overall I too, got the same impression that someone else mentioned, not a priority thru the auction process as it is when you "buy direct". I realize there are MANY SO's who are amazing to work with (I have heard that Edgar bends over backwards, I know Judy Arnold does, there are MANY wonderful SO's out there) but experiences such as these can sour many of us from ever doing additional auctions.

I am not sure how the registries can manage the process but there should be a way to keep these folks from getting in the mix????

[ljshorses]

Hmm, although I agree you are calm about it, many years ago I got burned twice and just swore off of the auctions altogether.

In the first scenario, my mare got in foal but aborted the foal 3 months before her due date (then I found out the stallion was positive for EVA and ONLY after my mare aborted did anyone else find this out-despite asking in advance). After that fiasco, I stayed away from that stallion and chalked up my loss since I couldn't really prove that is why she lost the foal (necropsy didn't provide proof).

The second scenario was a mess with the SO (who I also called before bidding)from day one, I gave up on even trying to breed to him. Eventually he was sold and the new SO actually honored the breeding, I just had to pay collection fees and a new booking fee.

Overall I too, got the same impression that someone else mentioned, not a priority thru the auction process as it is when you "buy direct". I realize there are MANY SO's who are amazing to work with (I have heard that Edgar bends over backwards, I know Judy Arnold does, there are MANY wonderful SO's out there) but experiences such as these can sour many of us from ever doing additional auctions.

I am not sure how the registries can manage the process but there should be a way to keep these folks from getting in the mix????



You know it is a real shame that these bad experiences can sour one from using auctions. The auctions are fun, chance to save a significant amount of money and a great help to the organization that has them. It seems it's these few bad apples that really make it a scary thing.

In my case, all I would of needed to feel much better about this breeding would of been a contract that spelled everything out. And even if there were changes such as frozen to fresh then a "new" or revised and signed contract should be in place. FIRST phone numbers and email to reach person needing to collect stallion, the collection process including what days available and how much notice needed, when and where stallion stands, shipping info including whether or not the mare owner can use their own fed ex account, clear instructions on what is needed from mare owner such as mare info sheet, and signed dated. If I had that from the beginning I never would of started feeling so anxious. All of the auctions I have won in the past, the stallion owners once contacted that you've won, get you a contract and your all set like any other breeding.

So my proposal to the organizations using stallion breedings in their auctions would be to REQUIRE a standard contract to be sent to the winner of the breeding. REQUIRE a set amount of time in which to get the paperwork completed, REQUIRE a valid email and phone number for winner to be able to get the ball started, REQUIRE either a set booking fee or booking fee included in winning bid (too many people I know of have been very burned by the "booking fee" which often times is significantly higher than it would be for a breeding bought directly from stallion owner). This sounds like a lot but really could be as easy as a 1 page contract that all winners of the auction would get and a contact/info page.

[elizabeth Callahan]

I had a very bad experience form an auction as well. Won the bid, stallion got injured, couldn't collect for 2 cycles ( ok, I understand that), so I waited then stallion coliced badly and could not be bred that season ( or any other, as he died later that year.). No frozen available. Had a signed contract guaranteeing my service. Stallion owner told me that he wasn't going to refund money, I should have to get the refund from the auction sponsor since he never got any profit from the breeding. He got to write that amount off on his taxes as a charitable contribution though, so he did get value.( more than I paid, as well)
Called a lawyer, several letters were written and voila, my money was returned. Took 6 months, but I did get it all back. I have been very leery of auctions since.

[FairWeather]

He got to write that amount off on his taxes as a charitable contribution though, so he did get value.( more than I paid, as well)
mmm, no he didnt. You can only write off tangible expenses like collection fees and equipment, not a stud fee.
That does suck though that the auction did not make it right.

[ljshorses]

Well I decided to talk to the organization yesterday and explain what was going on.They were great and actually immediately talked to the SO who low and behold sent me a contract via email today. Still need to clear a few things up, but yea it looks like the ball is finally rolling. I just wish SOs understood how neurotic and easily upset mareowners can get when there is NO paperwork for a year....I feel so much better now, I really hope this all works out and I really wish all us mare owners could have something standard in place to protect us.