Can you show the A circuit hunters in a bitless bridle??

[Riorider]

Wondering if anyone has some advice they can share. I have a Hanoverian that's 17.2 hands and can't find a bit that makes him look soft in between the jumps. He LOVES to jump. He canters down to 5ft like you would canter a 3ft jump. I was riding him in a segunda dee bit but he's still too damn happy after the jumps. I just recently started riding him in a training sidepull bitless bridle and he LOVES it and is so soft and responsive, before and after the jumps. I know the A circuit hunters wouldn't approve of him going around without a bit. What else can I do or try to get him not to be so happy after jumps???:confused:

[Couture TB]

Have you tried bits that use poll pressure? or the comfort snaffles? Do you mean he rushes after the jumps? It might be possible if you are catching him in the mouth over fences and that is why he is happier in a bitless

[ExJumper]

Could you be a little more specific on what "happy" means here?

And you may want to revise your title. Your question doesn't appear to be "Can you show the A circuit hunters in a bitless bridle" but rather is "What else can I do or try to get him not to be so happy after jumps."

And the answers to those questions would be vastly different :)

[Riorider]

Yes he rushes after the jumps leaping and playing

[Couture TB]

Do you happen to have video of him jumping?

[Riorider]

He loves to play by leaping after the jumps. The bitless brdle provides me with more control to collect im and get him back to jump the next fence. I also want to know if the hunters would allowme to show without a bit?? So i'm kinda asking 2 question.

[Riorider]

No I don't have a video, but should probably do one

[Riorider]

Who makes the comfort snaffle??

[Molly99]

Can you show in the hunters w/ bitless bridle? Yes

Will you be penalized? Most likely as it is unconventional tack.

[Riorider]

I thought so!! I might just go and do the jumpers with him since playing or leaping won't penalize him or me. After all 5ft is a piece of cake!

[Lucassb]

One of the things that a hunter is judged on is acceptance of light contact with the bit. So - while it is not "illegal" to show in a bitless bridle, most judges would not use you.

One thing to consider is whether the rider's hands are causing the reaction upon landing when using a bit or whether there was some issue in the horse's mouth that is aggravated by the bit upon landing. Otherwise, it would be somewhat surprising that the horse went so differently in a bitless rig.

[Riorider]

I have been told that I have very good hands. I recently had his teeth floated which were sharp but only stopped him from tossing his head at the canter. Are there any excercises you can do to get him quieter without drugging or longing to death???

[gloriginger]

I have been told that I have very good hands. I recently had his teeth floated which were sharp but only stopped him from tossing his head at the canter. Are there any excercises you can do to get him quieter without drugging or longing to death???

Take some dressage lessons, if you learn how to ride him through to the bit you will be able to quiet him through collection and movements.

[RioTex]

After being forced into a bitless bridle to prevent losing anymore riding time with a horse that had a surgical tooth extraction, I cannot imagine that there is a reason, other than protest, that he goes easily in a bitless and bucks in the corners in a bit. I am SOOO ready for my horse to be well again.

[Riorider]

Thanks for the advice. I'm a little afraid to start dressage only because the headset is so different from hunters to dressage. He pokes his nose beautifully and I would hate to mess with his head carrige.

[Riorider]

Riotex, My horse is the opposite he goes better without the damn bit!!

[gloriginger]

Thanks for the advice. I'm a little afraid to start dressage only because the headset is so different from hunters to dressage. He pokes his nose beautifully and I would hate to mess with his head carrige.

yeah...basic dressage is not going to "mess with his head carriage" and by saying that it makes me think even moreso that you would benifit from basic dressage lessons.

[Riorider]

OK, I'll give it a try. Next question who would be willing to come out and teach me the basics??

[DudMarv]

I had the same issue with a horse I used to own. He was a TB with a tail up in the air like an Arab, he would even whiny over the fence! And then buck/play afterward.

Is your horse young? He might just grow out of it, mine seemed too. And I did make him a jumper for the reason of him being celebratory. It didnt bother me very much, the fact that he was having a great time was enough for me, and obviously I hardly ever placed because of time faults!

Yours might work out of it with a little age and experience.
Good luck!

[Daventry]

I have a Hanoverian that's 17.2 hands and can't find a bit that makes him look soft in between the jumps....Yes he rushes after the jumps leaping and playing...I recently had his teeth floated which were sharp but only stopped him from tossing his head at the canter. Are there any exercises you can do to get him quieter without drugging or longing to death???


Sigh! I don't think you're problem right now is with finding a bitless bridle and whether you can show in it or not. Your horse needs to get broke. You shouldn't be trying to hunt down a quick fix that will "make him look soft" between the fences. The art of riding is to TEACH them HOW TO BE soft and obedient. Besides lots of flat work lessons and possibly some good training rides by a knowledgeable professional, I'd check the saddle fit (I'm betting it isn't fitting him properly) and possibly rule out any lameness or back problems.

Lower level dressage lessons with a trainer who knows the dressage pyramid inside and out would likely do wonders for your horse. As for conflicting with your hunter training, I agree with the others...it won't! It will only make it better. I regularly have young horses switching between Training Level Dressage and lower level Hunters with no problems. As for moving your horse into the jumper ring instead of getting to the root of the problem and fixing it....I can only say :no::sigh:

I'm sorry, but 5 ft. is not a piece of cake if the horse is constantly jumping, leaping and playing after the jumps. Even 3 ft. would be a problem in a tight triple combination with what you are describing. Personally, I think your horse is trying to tell you something....either that something is uncomfortable, he needs to be more broke on the flat, or needs to do more miles over lower fences. Just because a horse is talented over fences and it comes easy for them doesn't mean they should move up any faster through the heights than any other horse!

[Horseshowaddict]

And why exactly would you be jumping 5ft if you are going to be doing the hunters? 4ft is the max height a rated hunter can do anyways.

[Riorider]

And why exactly would you be jumping 5ft if you are going to be doing the hunters? 4ft is the max height a rated hunter can do anyways.
The reason I jumped him 5ft is to see excatly how much scope and talent he has. He was a good foot over it too. And to be honest with you after that jump he didn't play after it. Go figure right?? Maybe he was trying to tell me that is what he likes to do. When the fences got bigger he stopped playing.

[Silk]

Doesnt sound like you should be jumping around courses of 5 foot fences. I rather doubt this horse is clearing a course of 5 ft fences with a foot to spare.

Just sayin'.......

Go ahead ans show in the bitless. If he is overjumping a five foot fence by a foot, imagine what he'll be doing over a 3 ft fence? No bit in the world is going to correct that.

[Riorider]

His father did Grand Prix so have half of his offspring. But some are out winning in the hunters too. FYI in florida at West Palm he won some hunter classes and the judge told me he was a foot over the fences but had exceptional form. Didn't seem to have a problem with it!!!

[MR]

There is currently a petition going around, asking the USEF to allow bitless bridles in dressage. Would be great to see!!!

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/allow-bitless-bridles-in-usef-rated-competitions

[evans36]

If he's bucking after the jumps, you might check the saddle fit and have a chiro out to see him. If he loves to jump, he might still do it happily on the front end but then cut up on the back end of the jump out of pain, especially if he's a horse that really tries to use his back but his back is out of whack.

If he really is just having a good time, take the other advice on here and do some dressage work. Don't be worried about the headset - you won't be there for that really and at the lower levels the horses don't look like they do in the grand prix photos you see. However, he will learn to listen to your body more (and you'll learn to use it more) through your core and your seat so that maybe you can calm him more with that and he won't be so aggravated by your hands.

Even if you've been told you have "good" hands, it may just still be too much pressure for him - some horses just can't take ANY. Also make sure you're not riding him in a regular nutcracker snaffle - they pinch the tongue something terrible when you pull back quickly, and it sounds like you might be doing some of that for control after a jump.

He's a big guy, so you need to be using all the assets you have to control him - and your hands/the bit are the littlest ones you have!

[evans36]

There is currently a petition going around, asking the USEF to allow bitless bridles in dressage. Would be great to see!!!

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/allow-bitless-bridles-in-usef-rated-competitions

I wish the USEF would take a stand to allow these without penalty in all divisions... it really hurts the horses who MUST use them for legitimate reasons like past injuries, etc. I rode the cutest little mare once who couldn't stand a bit because she had basically been abused by a rider with terrible hands (she was a rescue, obvi). She rarely placed in the hunters, even at local shows... I heard through back channels a couple times that it was the bitless.

[Florida Fan]

And why exactly would you be jumping 5ft if you are going to be doing the hunters? 4ft is the max height a rated hunter can do anyways.

Exactly---hunters show on form. If you are obsessed with the fact that your horse jumps 5'----time to switch to the jumpers, which will require a lot more discipline. Most jumpers in the upper levels have flatwork equivalent to second level dressage. If you live in Fla, I live in Wellington, you can watch so many nice horses both hunters and jumpers every day. And you can find a trainer which can guide you to success.

[SillyHorse]

yeah...basic dressage is not going to "mess with his head carriage" and by saying that it makes me think even moreso that you would benifit from basic dressage lessons.
You and your horse would definitely benefit from some basic dressage training. I don't know what you think a dressage "headset" is, but at the lower levels the way of going is very similar to that of a hunter. In fact, I've seen hunters do very well in Training Level classes at schooling shows.

OK, I'll give it a try. Next question who would be willing to come out and teach me the basics??
Depends on where you are.

[gloriginger]

The reason I jumped him 5ft is to see excatly how much scope and talent he has. He was a good foot over it too. And to be honest with you after that jump he didn't play after it. Go figure right?? Maybe he was trying to tell me that is what he likes to do. When the fences got bigger he stopped playing.

okay- not trying to pick on you- but "doing jumpers" is about a whole lot more than how big the horse can jump- if they can jump high great but they need to have a lot of other very strong flat skills. If you watch jumper riders, their horses will demostrate many dressage movements- half pass, piaffe, collection, extension.

What many of us here are trying to tell you is that you need to school your horse more on the flat- and someone who can teach you basic dressage (which simply means training) to help you with your overall riding. If you tell us where you are located we can perhaps help you- or you can look on USDF website for trainers in your area.

[Daventry]

If he's bucking after the jumps, you might check the saddle fit and have a chiro out to see him. If he loves to jump, he might still do it happily on the front end but then cut up on the back end of the jump out of pain, especially if he's a horse that really tries to use his back but his back is out of whack.



:yes::yes:

[meupatdoes]

Honestly, if your horse is happy after the jumps, let him be happy after the jumps.

If you really want to make sure your bases are covered, have a brand-independent saddle fitter out. The number of people who say, "My saddle fits perfectly!" when in fact it does not fit AT ALL is pretty amazing.

Once you are positive that the saddle fits, ride him playfully. If he plays, he plays: slap a grin on your face and think he's hilarious. When it gets to the point that you are trying to quash a horse's high spirits and playful approach to his work, something on the horsemanship train has derailed.

One of mine has an ego the size of Mount Everest and has been known to do his own version of "showing off" in the hunters. One day he *knew* he had nailed a line, so he celebrated with a giant buck that almost lawn darted me, then waited politely for me to get my sh*t together before turning smoothly down the quarterline and presenting the gathered spectators with a master class on how to do the long approach to the single oxer.

He squealed in the air over that one for good measure to.


To date, that's my favorite trip on that horse.


So, let your horse have fun.
At the very least, attempts to 'modify' his approach should have a positive spin. So instead of saying, "Don't buck!" ask him, "Hey, hotstuff, can you show the judge how lovely your canter is?" Correcting the horse for having fun and enjoying his job seems very counterintuitive to me.

[luvs2ridewbs]

I don't really think a horse in pain would play less over fences of height and more over lower jumps. I do agree that you should rule out pain/saddle fit but it sounds like your horse just really loves jumping. Enjoy him in the jumper ring or the hunter ring, and find a bit that is comfortable and effective for him. Also, you do not need a dressage trainer to teach you flat work. Any good jumper or hunter trainer worth their salt should be able to teach you how to properly flat a hunter/jumper horse.

[Silk]

Well...if he has already won at WEF, why change anything. Obviously he is exactly where he should be, right? can't do much better than winning at WEF:)

I assume he liked the way he was bitted when he won that class. I am sure he didnt win a hunter class by "being happy" and bucking after the fences.

[DMK]

Well...if he has already won at WEF, why change anything. Obviously he is exactly where he should be, right? can't do much better than winning at WEF:)

I assume he liked the way he was bitted when he won that class. I am sure he didnt win a hunter class by "being happy" and bucking after the fences.

precisely. If he's young and truly just porpoising and playing after the jumps, be happy you have a horse who likes his job. If you just stay out of his mouth over the jump and then gently correct him ("son, it's not the time or the place") and go on without making a big deal out of it, he will lose the habit.

Or maybe he will be like my 17 year old who KNOWS when he has laid down a really nice trip and leaves me finessing the final circle as he porpoises his last strides after he turns off the final line. It just makes me laugh and laugh. I don't care if the judge does knock me down for it, but if he wants to give a happy head shake after 15 years of having a steady job (racing to hunter), who am I to think that is a bad thing? ;)

[Riorider]

Well...if he has already won at WEF, why change anything. Obviously he is exactly where he should be, right? can't do much better than winning at WEF:)

I assume he liked the way he was bitted when he won that class. I am sure he didnt win a hunter class by "being happy" and bucking after the fences.
I had a chiro/acupunture guy go over him and he said his back was fine that he just enjoys his job. When he won at WEF with his previous owners they wouldnt tell me what bit they showed him in. They gave be a waterford bit (ball bit) with him but all he did is take it and hold on to it giving me no control whatsoever!! So I'm going to try the new Pessoa bit with the copper balls tomorrow if he likes it. They say it's very soft and won't pinch him.

[Riorider]

precisely. If he's young and truly just porpoising and playing after the jumps, be happy you have a horse who likes his job. If you just stay out of his mouth over the jump and then gently correct him ("son, it's not the time or the place") and go on without making a big deal out of it, he will lose the habit.

Or maybe he will be like my 17 year old who KNOWS when he has laid down a really nice trip and leaves me finessing the final circle as he porpoises his last strides after he turns off the final line. It just makes me laugh and laugh. I don't care if the judge does knock me down for it, but if he wants to give a happy head shake after 15 years of having a steady job (racing to hunter), who am I to think that is a bad thing? ;)
He just loves to leap across the ground shaking his head up and down and YES he also grunts when he does this. He's never bucked after the jumps just leaps. Gotta love him!! But sometimes it's very frustrating after laying down a beautiful trip he has to go and ruin it.

[bingbingbing]

His father did Grand Prix so have half of his offspring.

Who is his sire?

Did I miss the age of your horse?

[Riorider]

Who is his sire?

Did I miss the age of your horse?
His sire is Rio Grande. His full brother is Rio's Filius who is replacing him at Charlot Farm in Canada.

[bingbingbing]

I love Rio Grande. Rio's Filius has some big shoes to fill! And while Rio does have Grand Prix offspring, half of them are not Grand Prix jumpers.

How old is your horse?

[Riorider]

he's 7yrs. old and grew again now almost 18hands.

[BLBGP]

What?? Are you saying that half of Rio's offspring are competing Grand Prix? If that is true, that is amazing and I would think a new record!

I would be intrigued to see photos of your horse. Why aren't you planning jumpers for him if it's so easy for him? Do you have a trainer? It's all about the flatwork...you don't know basic dressage?

If he won at WEF, sounds like something's changed for him since then either in health, saddle fit, riding, feed, or training.

[Riorider]

What?? Are you saying that half of Rio's offspring are competing Grand Prix? If that is true, that is amazing and I would think a new record!

I would be intrigued to see photos of your horse. Why aren't you planning jumpers for him if it's so easy for him? Do you have a trainer? It's all about the flatwork...you don't know basic dressage?

If he won at WEF, sounds like something's changed for him since then either in health, saddle fit, riding, or training.
What I meant to say is most of his offspring are competing in the jumper divisions heading towards Grand Prix. I know of one competing now in the Grand Prix. Super Mare!!

[xabbracadabra]

This seems kind of troll-ish to me....

To many different stories

[coriander]

Bingo. That was my thought from the first page, but then I'm a cynic...

[DMK]

it's definitely an ... unusual ... post, but the question of how bad to get after a horse who plays after the jump is a good one.

Also I notice that people read "A" and infer "B" without so much as a second thought. I have horses who have done well at West Palm. I have also had horses who did well at WEF. They were not necessarily the same horses or the same shows. ;)

[Riorider]

This seems kind of troll-ish to me....

To many different stories
This seems kind of troll-ish to me....

I wasn't asking for your opinion!! Some people are decent horse people others are horses @$%#^!!! If you no what I mean!!!

[fatorangehorse]

Stop it. This is clearly a child. Find better sport in another thread.

[Florida Fan]

What I meant to say is most of his offspring are competing in the jumper divisions heading towards Grand Prix. I know of one competing now in the Grand Prix. Super Mare!!

er---most of RG's top quality showhorses, are hunters, if you do your homework. RG qualified for the Olympics in "96, same year as my mares dam. What class did you win at WEF and where is the GP mare by RG competing? I have not seen her here---(WEF). We have a broodmare by RG and appreciate any info on GP horses from that line.

[xabbracadabra]

This seems kind of troll-ish to me....

I wasn't asking for your opinion!! Some people are decent horse people others are horses @$%#^!!! If you no what I mean!!!

Hardly, I would just like to see correct information on your horse and not things you are making up to make him look better.

[ExJumper]

I wasn't asking for your opinion!! Some people are decent horse people others are horses @$%#^!!! If you no what I mean!!!

I had my suspicions, but with a reply like this? Definitely a troll.

[chawley]

Or maybe he will be like my 17 year old who KNOWS when he has laid down a really nice trip and leaves me finessing the final circle as he porpoises his last strides after he turns off the final line. It just makes me laugh and laugh. ;)

Haha, that is exactly what my 15 year old TB does. I always ask my trainer and barnmates to wait to clap until I come down to the trot because he'll do the same thing if he thinks he did a good job. It makes me laugh too!

Back to the original poster....Like others have said, I would rule out pain first. My aforementioned packer started doing this after jumps this winter and the vet found his hip to be out. After two treatments, he's back to his normal self. He never acted in pain either.....

If you rule out pain, I'd go back to the basics with him teaching him to respond and come back to you immediately. I have found jumping nothing but poles or cross rails during these educational times is plenty. Another thing to try is a rubber bit. Sometimes horses that can be strong react very positively to soft, gentle bits. He sounds like a great horse - good luck with him!

[Small Spark]

er---most of RG's top quality showhorses, are hunters, if you do your homework. RG qualified for the Olympics in "96, same year as my mares dam. What class did you win at WEF and where is the GP mare by RG competing? I have not seen her here---(WEF). We have a broodmare by RG and appreciate any info on GP horses from that line.

Catwalk is a Rio and was at WC finals last year with Darrin Dlin. Excellent mare and a testament to Augustin's program.

[Mozart]

Rio's Rhapsody is showing Grand Prix and iirc recently won Canadian show jumping championship. No question those babies can jump...

OP it is really hard for anyone to give appropriate advice without seeing the horse go and see what his issue is. If he did well in the hunters while bitted, I suspect the bit is not the issue. Maybe he feels more playful after the bigger jumps as he is impressed with himself. Regardless, that is not an issue fixed by bitting but by careful schooling.

You might get more useful advice if you posted a thread asking for recommendations for trainers in your specific area.

[Portia]

Rio Grande had another son who did very well at GP, for a couple of years at least, Billy Bob (IIRC).

[hollyhorse2000]

OK, I'm going to treat this as a real question i.e. how do I get my horse to stop bucking and playing around after each jump? If he doesn't do it in a bitless bridle, then it would seem to indicate a teeth/mouth problem or a hand problem. If both have been ruled out, then start a training program where you jump him over a pole, then a cross rail, then slowly raise the fences. Find out at what level he begins to "play." Then back down and practice at that lower level for a while until you can raise the fence again and see if it has stopped.

Also, what about gynmastics where there isn't much room to buck after each jump?

I agree that some good schooling on the flat, whether you want to call it low level dressage or not, is probably needed . . .

[wyldhorseb]

why would you show a 5 year old in "AA" circuit hunters if all you can jump him in is a sidepull bitless training bridle and he leaps and plays after jumps? try some different things at home and see what works before you worry about horse shows. =]

[Anticipation]

There's a video on this horse's ad of him showing at HITS Tuscon without a bridle. I found it really interesting!

http://www.exchangehj.com/listings/burberry.html

[xabbracadabra]

Intresting video but he obviously goes well in a bit to from the pictures. It did look like he was late on his changes behind once or twice though.