Good Guinness Missing

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

Figured I'd help by posting something here.
Call Patrick Seaton with any info

12 year old 17hd Black ISH Gelding
Last seen in September at showpark before traveling from LA to New York.

415 797 0186 - patrick seaton

[LovesHorses]

From Facebook and Horseshowspy...


Ok...here goes, try to follow...On Sept 8th 2008, Patrick Seaton, using Ali as his agent and go-between, sent his grand prix mount Good Guinness to Frank Madden to sell. Frank had seen all the footage, and agreed to take the horse 'on the cuff' to sell. Patrick decided to send him after winning three CA prixs in '08, and he beleived he could sell Good Guinness on the East Coast for a good price as a high jr/ao horse. Ali assured him and encouraged him.....So in good faith he loaded his horse on Earl Jaque's van and he headed to NY. Mixed reviews followed, dissapointing offers, and the fact the horse was being shown in the childrens jumpers was a bit discouraging, but still Patrick trusted the horse was in good hands...Last week Patrick visited WEF to try horses and made a visit to Frank's barn to discuss sending Good Guinness back to CA. Patrick asked the grooms where Guinness was and they directed Patrick to his stall. THE HORSE BEING SHOWN AS GOOD GUINNESS, IN THE STALL, WITH GUINNESS'S PAPERS/HALTER...WAS/IS NOT GOOD GUINNESS! .. Patrick in shock asked where his horse was, and the grooms said that was him, it is not him. Frank said in fact this was the horse that was delivered to him-even though he had told Patrick he had watched all the videos from CA, and this horse is obviously not Good Guinness. Well, now we are on day 3 after the discovery, the police have been notified and the owner of Good Guinness, a prominent attorney, has called the FBI...this is huge...The imposter horse could use Good Guinness' passport as on paper their markings are similiar...All of us are hoping for a 'mistake' . The imposter horse is dark brown unbranded warmblood with a small star and is missing it's front teeth and has a scar on it's right hind leg. GOOD GUINNESS is a dark brown Irish horse, unbranded, with a star that has roaney edges, he has a super hind end and can be a bit strong, very careful... if you have any information please post it here anonymously if needed to protect yourself, or contact Patrick Seaton 415-797-0186.......

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

On top of that you wonder who the cute little dark horse belongs too... the "imposter horse".

[Andrew]

sounds to me that Earl Jaque's would be a good place to start since he had the horse on his van/rig

[JRG]

Always hoping for a good ending.

Is it at all possible that there was another horse on the van, and that GG was offloaded by mistake at another stop along the way or that the person reloading the horse after a possible stop mixed up the halters when reloading for the next leg of the trip?

Can you imagine getting your new horse, only to discover that he jumps much better then the video? Or the flip side, I thought this horse could jump better? What a mess.

[TSWJB]

That is terrible! i would never even think about making sure the horse you put on the van is the actual horse that arrives at destination. but yeah i guess you have to worry about that. and yeah could you imagine if you bought a nice horse and said wow! this horse jumped way better than when i tried him! yippee!!!!!

[WorthTheWait95]

I'm confused.

If Frank knew this horse 'obviously' wasn't GG why didn't he say something earlier? Like when the horse arrived??

[grandprixjump]

And see if that trailer made a detour to Mexico before going to the East Coast. I had a friend that a some people attempted to steal his GP appaloosa, got a new passport and everything, to take it to Mexico...
Is there anyway to check with the Mexico equestrian federation or even further SOUTH, see if anyone has recently recorded a NEW GP horse, or has a mediocre horse that is SUDDENLY winning in GP's?
Also immediately notify the FEI, a horse of that calabre will be noticed by someone. Do air shippers keep photos of the horses being flown? Might even look there for horses leaving the US that match his markings.....

[Dispatcher]

The imposter is missing his front teeth??? How the heck did that happen?

[WorthTheWait95]

The imposter is missing his front teeth??? How the heck did that happen?

:lol:
My 6 year old is missing a front tooth. It just never grew in. We had a school horse missing both fronts when I was a kid that the same thing happened to, didn't seem to affect him much.

[Dispatcher]

For some reason, I took it to mean all of his front teeth! You would think that would have prompted questions to the agent of any special feeding needs.

[vineyridge]

And this is why either microchipping or tattooing/branding is so very important. Any paper documents can be reused or forged, and when you are talking about animals as expensive as GG should have been, there is a lot of incentive for bad things to happen. The cross country distance makes the scam/fraud even harder to track back and prosecute.

[Melzy]

From the email that I received today, this horse left Patrick's hands in September 2008. That was 6 months ago and he's just asking about him now???

[ReSomething]

From the email that I received today, this horse left Patrick's hands in September 2008. That was 6 months ago and he's just asking about him now???

Well, that sorta makes sense to me - the horse was sent as a sales horse to the other side of the country and received at the other end in good order, wasn't till the sales weren't happening and Patrick Seaton happened to be where the horse was and decided he needed to make a decision that he actually went over and looked. I can sorta see that a brown unbranded horse with a small star might look alike if all you had ever seen was video footage. Granted the teeth might be a giveaway, but still.

Tattoos and microchips and DNA are good, but only if someone checks them. Hope the horse is eventually found and in good health.

[WorthTheWait95]

Well, that sorta makes sense to me - the horse was sent as a sales horse to the other side of the country and received at the other end in good order, wasn't till the sales weren't happening and Patrick Seaton happened to be where the horse was and decided he needed to make a decision that he actually went over and looked. I can sorta see that a brown unbranded horse with a small star might look alike if all you had ever seen was video footage. Granted the teeth might be a giveaway, but still.

Tattoos and microchips and DNA are good, but only if someone checks them. Hope the horse is eventually found and in good health.

What I find hardest to believe is that Frank would take ANY horse for 6 MONTHS on the cuff especially since this horse was actively showing. If he's willing to do that I've got a few I could send him :lol:. Seems like there would have been some communication after just a week or two about how the horse wasn't performing as expected, etc.

[Mardi]

just trying to follow...

who is Patrick Seaton in this story ? He's not the owner I take it, as the story says "owner of Good Guinness, a prominent attorney, has called the FBI.."

And the character named "Ali" is Ali Nilforushian ?

[Molly99]

According to results a horse under the GG name has been showing.

It is not uncommon for a trainer to take a horse from another trainer with no fees attached for a higher % commission. Plus if the horse has been showing, I would bet that someone is paying to lease him, at least covering his costs.

As for the video not matching the horse that arrived in ability. How many of us have looked at a video and then went to see the horse, only to find it was NOTHING like in the video? That is easy. Would seem Frank thought he could market him a bit differently and still get him sold.

[Roulett]

From Facebook and Horseshowspy...


Ok...here goes, try to follow...On Sept 8th 2008, Patrick Seaton, using Ali as his agent and go-between, sent his grand prix mount Good Guinness to Frank Madden to sell. Frank had seen all the footage, and agreed to take the horse 'on the cuff' to sell. Patrick decided to send him after winning three CA prixs in '08, and he beleived he could sell Good Guinness on the East Coast for a good price as a high jr/ao horse. Ali assured him and encouraged him.....So in good faith he loaded his horse on Earl Jaque's van and he headed to NY. Mixed reviews followed, dissapointing offers, and the fact the horse was being shown in the childrens jumpers was a bit discouraging, but still Patrick trusted the horse was in good hands...Last week Patrick visited WEF to try horses and made a visit to Frank's barn to discuss sending Good Guinness back to CA. Patrick asked the grooms where Guinness was and they directed Patrick to his stall. THE HORSE BEING SHOWN AS GOOD GUINNESS, IN THE STALL, WITH GUINNESS'S PAPERS/HALTER...WAS/IS NOT GOOD GUINNESS! .. Patrick in shock asked where his horse was, and the grooms said that was him, it is not him. Frank said in fact this was the horse that was delivered to him-even though he had told Patrick he had watched all the videos from CA, and this horse is obviously not Good Guinness. Well, now we are on day 3 after the discovery, the police have been notified and the owner of Good Guinness, a prominent attorney, has called the FBI...this is huge...The imposter horse could use Good Guinness' passport as on paper their markings are similiar...All of us are hoping for a 'mistake' . The imposter horse is dark brown unbranded warmblood with a small star and is missing it's front teeth and has a scar on it's right hind leg. GOOD GUINNESS is a dark brown Irish horse, unbranded, with a star that has roaney edges, he has a super hind end and can be a bit strong, very careful... if you have any information please post it here anonymously if needed to protect yourself, or contact Patrick Seaton 415-797-0186.......


I was getting group emails about this situation but never got the whole story. The emails I got also had pictures of both horses -- I wish I knew how to load pics on this forum
but I'm sure other's got the same email -- it might be helpful if someone posted the
pictures so you can see both horses and possibly ID the imposter horse.

[S A McKee]

According to results a horse under the GG name has been showing.

It is not uncommon for a trainer to take a horse from another trainer with no fees attached for a higher % commission. Plus if the horse has been showing, I would bet that someone is paying to lease him, at least covering his costs.



The horse showed last in 2008 on 8/27. According to the time frame in the OP the horse was shipped to NY almost shortly after that show.
Good Guinness next appears in Florida on 1/14/09. So there was a significant gap between the last 2008 date and his/whoever next show ring appearance.

So I'm not sure that your argument that 'someone is paying to lease him' covers much of the time frame from 8/27 to the present. Looks like the horse was unemployed for four months out of the six months in question.

[Horseymama]

This was sent to my Facebook inbox, I will try to link it here: (someone let me know if it doesn't work)

Missing Horse Flyer (http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?id=664639190&ref=name#/inbox/readmessage.php?t=1060538325808&mbox_pos=0)

I still don't see how this could have gone on for 6 months. If he was a successful Grand Prix horse and then all of a sudden was a Children's/Adult jumper, that would have been a big red flag for me!

I have had a problem with commercial shippers shipping us the wrong horse before, we had a van bring us a bay mare from quarantine in L.A. when they were supposed to bring us a bay GELDING. Imagine my surprise when she got off the truck! Luckily the owner of the mare didn't live too far away and was equally as surprised when he went to pick up his "mare!" We were able to get it figured out quickly and actually got to be friends with the other people!

But this doesn't sound like a mistake to me, this sounds like someone stole the horse, and I would venture to say it is Mexico. Good luck to all that are involved, I am happy to translate this message into Spanish and send it to some South American contacts, if that would help...

[cloudyandcallie]

And this is why either microchipping or tattooing/branding is so very important. Any paper documents can be reused or forged, and when you are talking about animals as expensive as GG should have been, there is a lot of incentive for bad things to happen. The cross country distance makes the scam/fraud even harder to track back and prosecute.

Exactly, it's inexpensive, and you don't need to tell everyone about it since people could remove the chip if they steal your horse. Chip your horses, dogs and cats.

I read the story on HSS and wondered why it wasn't on coth, since it's obvious that people should be looking for the horse everywhere. Without a lip tattoo or microchip or identifying scar, which you have a picture of, or an european brand with part of the life #, it's hard to find and ID a missing or stolen horse.

However, if this horse was accidentally delivered to the wrong person "how come" he/she didn't tell? Did he/she keep Guinness? :confused:
But then first you have to believe that the right horse was loaded on the transport. After all the things that went on years ago in Chicago and Fla with ins. fraud, I'd want to know if the right horse was loaded, and if so, who either accidentally or deliberately removed him before he arrived at his destination.

I hope the horse is alive and in the USA. Getting him back from Mexico would involve a lot of expense and even danger. First thing is to find out if someone else had another horse on that transport that is the horse now posing as Guinness and get all those records. That person got the real Guinness. But if there wasn't another horse on the transport, then either the "wrong" horse left as Guinness or someone trailering him stole him and made the substitution.

[thizzelledance]

just trying to follow...

who is Patrick Seaton in this story ? He's not the owner I take it, as the story says "owner of Good Guinness, a prominent attorney, has called the FBI.."



Patrick is the trainer who rode the horse.

Here's a link to his website where there's an ad for GG

http://www.patrickseaton.com/sales.shtml

[luvs2ridewbs]

who knows, maybe someone bought a c/a jumper sight unseen and they accidently ended up with GG. OR more realistically, the horse was stolen and is now long gone.

[Molly99]

The horse showed last in 2008 on 8/27. According to the time frame in the OP the horse was shipped to NY almost shortly after that show.
Good Guinness next appears in Florida on 1/14/09. So there was a significant gap between the last 2008 date and his/whoever next show ring appearance.

So I'm not sure that your argument that 'someone is paying to lease him' covers much of the time frame from 8/27 to the present. Looks like the horse was unemployed for four months out of the six months in question.
See to, not showing that time of year isn't a red flag. The fall in the NE is mostly year end shows at the level Frank would be showing. And then nothing until you get to Florida, again not surprising. We have plenty of horses that do no shows from the end of August until they ship to Florida for the winter months and sale horses are less likely to be shown. At the show, yes, but showing, not necessarily.

I was thinking of a lease being the reason he is being shown now, not that the horse was leased the entire time.

[Calhoun]

My cynical side crawling out . . . how much was this horse worth in Sept 2008? Insurance money? I'm having a hard time getting my head around someone not checking in on their horse for that length of time. Also, your horse has ability to win "many Grand Prixs" (according to Patrick Seaton's website) and suddenly he's demoted to children's jumper? It does not add up with the facts presented.

I'm confused, why wouldn't the owner know the horse was being leased?

[caffeinated]

I'm having a hard time getting my head around someone not checking in on their horse for that length of time. Also, your horse has ability to win "many Grand Prixs" (according to Patrick Seaton's website) and suddenly he's demoted to children's jumper? It does not add up with the facts presented.

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, but I can see this happening pretty easily.

People lease horses out or send them places all the time without checking on them constantly... I can see a bigger trainer sending a horse to another bigger trainer and assuming everything is fine until the horse isn't selling after 5-6 months.

And because there was a little break in the showing action, the "demotion" wasn't necessarily an alarm bell right away.

On the flip side, there's so many possibilities here that the mind boggles. Could be shady dealings on any of the individuals' parts... or an innocent shipping mistake... or a nefarious shipper out to take advantage of everybody else... or Mexicans. Where's Jessica Fletcher when you need her?

[Calhoun]

I agree get Jessica Fletcher or Jack Bauer - LOL

[lonewolf]

For anyone who's interested, I found a video of the horse on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuZrbkAqdnM

[Dun Ciarain]

In this age of digital photography, I would assume that when a valuable horse is shipped across country and neither the owner nor the agent/trainer/other person familiar with the horse is available to accept delivery of the horse that:

1. Photos of the horse being shipped are sent ahead to the final destination.

2. That the receipient of the horse sends photos back to the point of origination to verify the horse is the correct one.

Since there was no chip and no brand, are color and size the only identifiers?

"I'm shipping you a very expensive horse to sell, it is brown." Six months later I check with you and the horse I sent you isn't the horse you have??? No one questioned the diminished abilities of the horse they received? Since apparently no one can verify if the correct horse was ever received and it has been six months since the horse was supposedly shipped...it will be very hard to prove what happened.

Photos of Good Guinness competing:

http://www.sheriscottphotography.com/galleries/summer_festival_2008_d-g/index.htm


The six month time frame to find out your horse is missing really bothers me.

"Well, now we are on day 3 after the discovery, the police have been notified and the owner of Good Guinness, a prominent attorney, has called the FBI...this is huge..."

I can't image any prominent attorney who would let an expensive horse to be shipped across the country to be sold without someone accepting custody/responsibility for horse at the destination.

Instead of "this is huge", I would say "this is suspicious" that it took six months to find out that they have the wrong horse.

[nycjumper]

Umm... people ship horses to trainers all the time. I highly doubt that someone was thinking this would happen. And from the surface, it sounds like the horses were similar(esque) in looks. So even if they had a pic of a bay horse getting off the trailer, would that necessarily have changed things?

If horse is coming off GPs in CA, ships cross-country, I would assume there was some downtime while they prepped him for FL and it wouldn't have necessarily raised any alarm bells, esp being in a BNT barn.

Again - for a lot of people - this isn't about their precious Dobbin being sent away. They are pros. How much do you think they are checking in regularly, esp if the plan was to get the horse ready for GPs at WEF (which are a step up and would probably have required some legging up)?

[Dun Ciarain]

My cynical side crawling out . . . how much was this horse worth in Sept 2008? Insurance money? I'm having a hard time getting my head around someone not checking in on their horse for that length of time. Also, your horse has ability to win "many Grand Prixs" (according to Patrick Seaton's website) and suddenly he's demoted to children's jumper? It does not add up with the facts presented.

I'm confused, why wouldn't the owner know the horse was being leased?

I agree, it may be perfectly innocent, but these types of things seem to happen during recessions (quick drops in the horse market coincide with recessions) or when something else is up. Some things just sound suspicious, like "I left my child with a babysitter a month ago and the babysitter disappeared, I guess it is time to notify the police...".

It is hard to believe the the destiantion did not verify that the horse they signed for was the correct one. The first thing I would look at is the chain of custody of the horse. I assume that the horse was signed for by the shipper, agent and the receipient.

[eqrider1234]

Yeah the first thing i thought of when i read this was of what when on in florida and chicago with the horse killing for insurance money.. although i wasnt alive i did read the book and this does sound like it could be something similar, but I think it would have been easier for them to kill the horse rather than find another horse that looks like it, wait six months and then freak out and get everyone involved.. and idk does insurance pay for missing horses? or just dead ones?

[Dun Ciarain]

Umm... people ship horses to trainers all the time. I highly doubt that someone was thinking this would happen. And from the surface, it sounds like the horses were similar(esque) in looks. So even if they had a pic of a bay horse getting off the trailer, would that necessarily have changed things?

If horse is coming off GPs in CA, ships cross-country, I would assume there was some downtime while they prepped him for FL and it wouldn't have necessarily raised any alarm bells, esp being in a BNT barn.

Again - for a lot of people - this isn't about their precious Dobbin being sent away. They are pros. How much do you think they are checking in regularly, esp if the plan was to get the horse ready for GPs at WEF (which are a step up and would probably have required some legging up)?

You're right, this isn't about Dobbin, it's about a lot of money. Professional people document such transactions since they are liable if something goes wrong.

[horsegurl]

[edit]

And for all the comments--The horses are so similar looking, I don't think Maddens could possibly have known the horse arriving wasn't Guinness. There's gotta be a place to see the flyer. I can't find it on Patrick's website (brilliant!). It's on Facebook on various friends profiles.

[edit]

Funny enough, sometimes these stories have a way of ending happily months and months later. Fingers crossed for Guinness.

[Roulett]

I just got the email blast on missing GP horse but the photo's of the imposter are
very small -- I have lifted them off my original emails from a few days ago so
you can see them better and possibly ID imposted horse. I hope this works, I'm
not real familiar with this photobucket program.

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo27/russianjumper86/IMG_0445.jpg

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo27/russianjumper86/wrong.jpg

[caffeinated]

and a couple photos on Anne Gittin's site (http://www.annegittins.com/scripts/store/imageFolio.cgi?direct=00003-WEF_2009--All_Files_Here/WEF09-files/3577-Good%20Guinness&img=)... (this would be whichever horse is competing under the name... from WEF)...

Not that it matters, or one could tell from those photos... I'm just a crazy webstalker.

And on the USEF site on all the WEF entries, underneath it says something about the owner not being active- so did this horse actually compete (whoever he is) or was he disqualified after?

[gwenrowdy]

Sorry if this has already been posted somewhere; this is a crosspost from the Friends of TB Friends yahoo group. The "Joe" she's referring to is Joe of TB Friends, who rescues many TBs. What a nightmare!


To those of you ALL Over the country. Please copy and paste this and email to
all--especially those that frequent feed lots, Mexican type rodeo things, etc.

Good Guinness is a 12 yr, 17h ISH (warmblood), Black, with small star. He
belongs to Patrick Seaton, and was shipped (here's the scary part)last September
(!) from L.A. to NY to Beezie Madden's barn. He never arrived.

The story goes roughly like this: Patrick Seaton was called by the Madden's,
that Guinness just wasn't performing, and so he traveled east to see the horse.
When he got there, voila! It was not his horse Guinness, who had arrived at the
barn, it was some other black horse. Patrick, the trainer, just discovered this
in the past few days.

If you would please forward this info to every horse person you know. Who knows
where Guinness is? Maybe he's at Joe's? Who knows. Hopefully not in a Mexican
Rodeo somewhere, or ....worse. I posted the flyer in the "photos" section of
this website. please help.

Thanks
Kylee

[nycjumper]

Thanks for the clarification. ;) I'm quite sure there was documentation. It appears from the original post is that the horses were similar enough in height, color, marking that GG's coggins, etc could be used. My point is that people seem to be blaming original rider for not checking in sooner and quite frankly, I'm not sure why he would if he was notified horse arrived safely & was on track to show at WEF in Jan.

There appears to be a lot of questions going around
1) If Ali has been at WEF for months - did he not check in & notice the horse was different?
2) The missing teeth/scars on legs prob would have raised an alarm bell - that seems strange that no one asked about that
3) A GP horse showing in C/A Jumpers??

Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Molly99]

Caffeinated - that just means the owner is not a USEF member. Which according to a search on USEF that owner is not a 2009 member.

[SuperSTB]

I sold a horse that was shipped to a ranch that was only 5 hrs away. Supposed to be a quick trip. The horse did go missing for a couple days... still don't know wtf happened.

Anyway- precautions we took: photo of horse loading on trailer, and photo of truck trailer that picked up horse. I also jotted plates of truck AND trailer. Also got the driver's name and cell phone number (incase he was brokered out by hauling co). Called the new owner once the horse was loaded and off.

The new owner called me after the arrival date was missed. I forwarded on all the info include pics and she contacted the shipping company. It's not uncommon for shippers to contract with other shippers.

I don't take much stock in microchipping but I do with branding and tattoos! Microchipping is at the whim of the chip design matching scanner capabilities. But my crew is tattoo'd so I don't need to chip.

[Dun Ciarain]

I just got the email blast on missing GP horse but the photo's of the imposter are
very small -- I have lifted them off my original emails from a few days ago so
you can see them better and possibly ID imposted horse. I hope this works, I'm
not real familiar with this photobucket program.

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo27/russianjumper86/IMG_0445.jpg

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo27/russianjumper86/wrong.jpg

Well, if this is the "Imposter Horse," even I can tell that it isn't the right horse and has the wrong markings (and I'm no pro). I've hacked alongside GG as well and the fake GG even looks smaller.

[paintjumper]

As my Granny used to say to me when I was a child,when my "stories" used to be a bit suspect, I smell a dead rat in several people's pocket. And if he was mine, no messing around with Jessica Fletcher, it would be Jack Bauer all the way!
I sure hope he is safe and found soon.

[Roulett]

Well, if this is the "Imposter Horse," even I can tell that it isn't the right horse and has the wrong markings (and I'm no pro). I've hacked alongside GG as well and the fake GG even looks smaller.

Here they are side by side HEAD SHOT --- playing with photobucket on this one --- I don't
think they look anything alike!

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo27/russianjumper86/Picture1.jpg

[Bluehorsesjp]

Thanks for the clarification. ;) I'm quite sure there was documentation. It appears from the original post is that the horses were similar enough in height, color, marking that GG's coggins, etc could be used. My point is that people seem to be blaming original rider for not checking in sooner and quite frankly, I'm not sure why he would if he was notified horse arrived safely & was on track to show at WEF in Jan.

There appears to be a lot of questions going around
1) If Ali has been at WEF for months - did he not check in & notice the horse was different?
2) The missing teeth/scars on legs prob would have raised an alarm bell - that seems strange that no one asked about that
3) A GP horse showing in C/A Jumpers??

Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I don't really question a GP horse showing in the Ch/A jumpers. I currently own 2 ex grand prix horses. I started with both in the AA jumpers. They gave me confidence because the knew what they were doing and had enough scope to get out.
If someone has that type of money, wants to move up I find nothing unusual about mounting someone on a GP horse for the ch/a jumpers.

[caffeinated]

There's a thread on h/j with more info...

I dunno, given the value of the horse I find it much more likely that it was swapped/switched at some point, and if sold, sold for a reasonably high amount of money, rather than possibly ending up at a feedlot or mexican rodeo... but you never know...

[Laytian]

Which website is she referring to that has the photos? :confused::confused::confused:

[dmj]

was also going to say that my friend bought a GP horse and shows him in the AA jumpers - why? Because she could. Simple as that.

[Sebastian]

was also going to say that my friend bought a GP horse and shows him in the AA jumpers - why? Because she could. Simple as that.


But that's not really the point here... This horse was sent east to be sold. Running a GP horse around the AA's is REALLY crappy marketing, IMHO...

And, as they say -- "something is DEFINITELY rotten in the state of Denmark"

Those two horses look nothing alike... (ok, they're both brown).
Seb :)

[Sebastian]

Which website is she referring to that has the photos? :confused::confused::confused:

Go over to the H/J forum. It's all laid out there.
Seb :)

[nycjumper]

The horse according to the original post was sent to be a high jr/ao horse. High Jr/AO - at WEF. That's a long way from C/A. So methinks that would again raise some questions somewhere along the line.

No one is questioning that there are (although I would think usually ex) GP horses in the AA ring. But again, not the point nor again, going off the OP, was the intention for this specific horse.

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

I find it highly irritating that people are doubting the details of the story. With the FBI involved I'm sure things are moving how they should and truth is being told, or found out.

[countingstrides]

See if this link works to view the entire flyer. I just got it again today, so I hope this works:

http://equestrisol.com/goodguinness/GoodGuinness.html

[countingstrides]

I just posted a link to the flyer that I hope will work over in the H/J forum. Here it is again:

http://equestrisol.com/goodguinness/GoodGuinness.html

[Dun Ciarain]

I find it highly irritating that people are doubting the details of the story. With the FBI involved I'm sure things are moving how they should and truth is being told, or found out.

Irritating???

What is irritating is that someone can send a horse across the country to a reputable trainer and no one bothered to verify the horse was the right one until six months later. If someone had bothered to check the markings, which are obviously different, six months wouldn't have passed. It is amazing that a package sent by FexEx or UPS for $10 or $20 has far more documentation, prove of sending and prove of delivery than an expensive horse had in this case.

[vineyridge]

Does anyone else remember the weird story about the TB stallion who was supposed to be shipped from the UK (?) to Australia. After a few months, it was discovered that the wrong stallion was in Australia and the right one was somewhere like the Czech Republic.

If a round the world mix-up can happen, surely a transcontinental one could as well.

[BLBGP]

If it was a honest mistake, I think we can assume that someone somewhere is really thrilled with the horse they bought as their new low level jumper who turned out to be such a superstar!

Hopefully GG is ok and safe somewhere.

[horsegurl]

Yes. IF...But one would think if a hauler messed up, delivered wrong horse..or whatever...the other horse wouldn't so closely resemble the horse that was supposed to be delivered.

[Missy's Mom]

Yes. IF...But one would think if a hauler messed up, delivered wrong horse..or whatever...the other horse wouldn't so closely resemble the horse that was supposed to be delivered.


Actually, the horses being so similar would make it easier for the hauler to make a mistake.

But there are several things in the story as related that are questionable. It remains to be seen whether those inconsistancies are because of something nefarious, or because the story is getting muddled in the retelling.

I wouldn't be so quick to cast aspersions on the folks involved until something official comes out.

[horsegurl]

...I can see your point. And yes, the story is snowballing thru the generations of the story tellers!

[JBTheBest]

Some posts have referred to the Maddens, who is the player in this? Frank and/or Stacia, I didn't think they did anything together anymore, but I could be wrong, don't know them personally.

[Dispatcher]

Whew! After reading all this, I am SO glad I can ride and enjoy my horse and not have to deal with all this "wheeling & dealing"

This high level competition is way out of hand. I know it has always gone on at some level ( at least the last 40 years that I know about) but, boyohboy it's out of this world nowadays.

What ever happened to real competition and skill? Why are so many "professionals" acting like this? Rhetorical question.

[Dun Ciarain]

[edit]

I agree.

The only thing anyone really knows is that there is a horse named Good Guinness is he is for sale.

Everything else is speculation unless some statement by the parties invovled is made.

[grandprixjump]

Everyone realizes now his star could be very large and also he could have coronet bands, socks or stockings. Using Freeze branding, the hair would grow back white... So to really look for him you would need to know his style of jump, and base color...

[Ambrey]

Somebody out there is wondering why their children's hunter is suddenly jumping 5'.

[Hi Jump]

I think it entirely plausible it is legitimately a mistake. Two similar horses unfamiliar to the shipping handler, and as soon as the halter with the horses name accidently gets put back on the wrong horse at a layover barn, who really would be the wiser, as mentioned contracted haulers meet and take a horse off to head another direction and nobody notices. In completely good faith both the trainers think the horse has arrived in Wellington, the coggins markings are rendered by vets not artists, and even upon checking it could easily be mistaken as correct. So the wrong horse slips into the program which could be the result of an honest mistake. How would Maddens staff not simply think the horse was off from with a long haul and new rider? In the general routine in a busy barn I would think it easy for a horse to sort of absorbed into whatever level of program the horse fit in with minimal discussion. It is uncommon, but totally plausible to me.

I am sure it has been tremendously stressful and it would be nice if everyone could keep their eyes open , just in case. Hopefully this has a happy ending and becomes another tale to be told years from now.

Synergy Sporthorses
Home to stallions Cotopaxi & Raffaello
http://hunterjumperstallions.com
Go Captus!

[Feride]

The "impostor" horse is with Frank not Stacia. One of his clients was showing it and leasing it.

[Ruby G. Weber]

Yeah, and I just heard they know what killed Phar Lap. Arsenic is his apples. They're pretty sure the butler did it.

Seriously though - The best thing anyone can do for GG the "missing" horse is tell a friend. Forget all the speculation, conjecture and theorizing and simply get the word out.

[nashfad]

OMG---how horrible!! Who was the shipping company?

[half seat]

Sorry if this has already been posted somewhere; this is a crosspost from the Friends of TB Friends yahoo group. The "Joe" she's referring to is Joe of TB Friends, who rescues many TBs. What a nightmare!


To those of you ALL Over the country. Please copy and paste this and email to
all--especially those that frequent feed lots, Mexican type rodeo things, etc.

Good Guinness is a 12 yr, 17h ISH (warmblood), Black, with small star. He
belongs to Patrick Seaton, and was shipped (here's the scary part)last September
(!) from L.A. to NY to Beezie Madden's barn. He never arrived.

The story goes roughly like this: Patrick Seaton was called by the Madden's,
that Guinness just wasn't performing, and so he traveled east to see the horse.
When he got there, voila! It was not his horse Guinness, who had arrived at the
barn, it was some other black horse. Patrick, the trainer, just discovered this
in the past few days.

If you would please forward this info to every horse person you know. Who knows
where Guinness is? Maybe he's at Joe's? Who knows. Hopefully not in a Mexican
Rodeo somewhere, or ....worse. I posted the flyer in the "photos" section of
this website. please help.

Thanks
Kylee

Everything I have read said Frank Madden's barn... He is located on Long Island.

[Parker_Rider]

This is all a little fishy... I mean, I know I watch waayyyy too much CSI: Miami, but it's been a long time since I've read a Jodi Jaffe novel (or Hot Blood:The Money, The Brach Heiress, the Horse Murders for that matter) and I don't think I'm projecting here... I know it's all conjecture at this point, but if a not-so-flashy (sorry Imitator..), toothless horse got off the trailer at your barn, supposing to be a GP horse... wouldn't you call someone and double check? I know that sounds shallow, but if this horse was just shown before it got on the trailer, and GG was going to be sold, my guess is that GG was not looking scruffy that day. It's the toothless that gets me. Again, shallow (but I'm thinking like a high roller ;) haha jk), but I can't think of a lot of people with that much money who would pay for a front-toothless horse when there's another one coming along (again for.. what.. a couple hundred a least?) who has all his teeth and that aesthetic value?

Sorry. I'm procrastinating on a paper (or 4). And conspiracy theories are a lot more fun than what I have to write about... :)

And this is why I ship my horses myself, even if it means 3 trips across the country!!!!!

[beeblebrox]

nm

[Haalter]

It's the toothless that gets me. Again, shallow (but I'm thinking like a high roller ;) haha jk), but I can't think of a lot of people with that much money who would pay for a front-toothless horse when there's another one coming along (again for.. what.. a couple hundred a least?) who has all his teeth and that aesthetic value?

Seriously? A winning GP jumper and you'd be worried about the aesthetics of some missing teeth? No wonder it's so hard to sell horses these days! Although it surprises me that the BM/trainer didn't ask about the teeth and if the horse needed any special dietary program, which would have clued the seller in immediately after the horse arrived...

[Parker_Rider]

Seriously? A winning GP jumper and you'd be worried about the aesthetics of some missing teeth? No wonder it's so hard to sell horses these days!

I didn't say I would be!! If someone was ready to hand me a GP horse that had GGs scope, it would take me approx. 2 milliseconds to take that deal. I'm just saying I've seen people turn down good horses for less! Again, I said it was shallow and I'm procrastinating and picking apart everything.

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

I agree.

The only thing anyone really knows is that there is a horse named Good Guinness is he is for sale.

Everything else is speculation unless some statement by the parties invovled is made.

Patrick has made statements, no hoax. Who has the time to conjure up something to serious to be a hoax. Idk how this is so unbelievable. The story is true, nobody knows who's to "blame" or who made the "mistake". Withthe FBI though, let's home they can do more of a serious job than the Police.

Honestly! Why all the speculation? Just do a good deed and spread the word that the horse is missing, people love him and would like to find out where he is or has been. Not hear about how their story is fishy or unbelievable, like hell it is! And they have to deal with it.

Spread the word!

[MagicRoseFarm]

This might be a lesson to all Shipping a horse long distance to braid a yellow cattle tag into the horse's mane AND one in the tail with the horse's name on it- made with a Sharpie... I received two horses from Europe once and insisted this be done with them...

[Glimmerglass]

Missing since September 2008 ... and this is March 10, 2009?

[Horseymama]

So if it was an honest mistake, then where were they supposed to deliver the Ch/AA jumper to? Can it be that hard? Let's say they put 10 horses on the van, and let's suppose one was delivered to Arizona, one to New Mexico, five to Texas, one to Louisiana, and two to Florida. Can't they just call those people? Isn't there some kid somewhere that bought a Ch/AA jumper that now has a strong horse with a really huge jump that wonders if it was the same horse she tried? Where are the other horse's owners or buyers? This other horse didn't just appear out of thin air!

The fact that this other horse just appeared and looks similar raises a red flag to me. If not, wouldn't the owners of the other horse would be wondering, too?

[dalpal]

This might be a lesson to all Shipping a horse long distance to braid a yellow cattle tag into the horse's mane AND one in the tail with the horse's name on it- made with a Sharpie... I received two horses from Europe once and insisted this be done with them...

Or you could just take a big Sharpie and Write.."PROPERTY OF" on the actual horse...in big, bold letters. :lol:

I'm sorry, I know this is a very serious situation and I hope that GG is found safe.

I think we live in an age where people just can't believe that _hit happens and it has to be a conspiracy. I refuse to believe it was anything other than an accident until someone has evidence that proves something different.

[countingstrides]

I just think it's so sad that so many people on this board with absolutely no connection to the situation are so cynical and are saying things that could hurt someone's livelyhood. What does this say about the horse people we surround ourselves with, and the world we live in? Very sad.

JM .02

[SuperSTB]

So if it was an honest mistake, then where were they supposed to deliver the Ch/AA jumper to? Can it be that hard? Let's say they put 10 horses on the van, and let's suppose one was delivered to Arizona, one to New Mexico, five to Texas, one to Louisiana, and two to Florida. Can't they just call those people? Isn't there some kid somewhere that bought a Ch/AA jumper that now has a strong horse with a really huge jump that wonders if it was the same horse she tried? Where are the other horse's owners or buyers? This other horse didn't just appear out of thin air!

The fact that this other horse just appeared and looks similar raises a red flag to me. If not, wouldn't the owners of the other horse would be wondering, too?


I don't know anything about this particular incident but the horse I sold that went "missing" was more than likely turned out in a huge lot with other horses and they didn't know how to pick her out from the herd. But who knows- it was just not as cut and dry as it should have been.

Its far to easy for shippers to mix up horses and honestly there are drivers who don't know how to handle horses- they are just paid to drive from A to B. Horse people just *assume* that other horse people are doing the hauling when that just not always the case.

BTW- when I hauled my own cross country, we stopped at one place that was frequented by cross country shippers... uhmmm we witnessed horses coming off the trailer and turned out together. While at one hand I'm glad they got out to stretch their legs but on the other hand- I'm hoping this was okay with whomever is paying to ship these ponies.

[dalpal]

I just think it's so sad that so many people on this board with absolutely no connection to the situation are so cynical and are saying things that could hurt someone's livelyhood. What does this say about the horse people we surround ourselves with, and the world we live in? Very sad.

JM .02

I think it's the World in general.

Do you guys remember the recent tragedy with the NFL players lost at sea? It was semi big news here, since Smith had played at NC State. Our local news runs a comment board on stories.......I cannot tell you, how many people were screaming that this was a hoax, conspiracy.......All I could think was...YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME????? You think these boys swam away to some island and left one to hang onto the boat for MANY hours in hopes that someone would come rescue him? I hate it when people jump to conclusions.........god forbid, that the story told, might actually be the truth??????????? That would be boring.

[4Martini]

We had a horse show up at my barn and the owner had said on the boarding contract that he weighed 1600 lbs or something. Well, big cross country shipper shows up and unloads average sized grey horse. BO calls owner (who was moving cross country at the time and was not answering.) We were weight taping the horse. The shipper kept saying - it's the only grey one... We didn't actually get hold of the owner for I remember two days. We got hold of her husband who said "Big Grey Horse."

Turns out it was the right horse and the paperwork was filled out incorrectly. But man were we freaked out that we had the wrong horse.

[witherbee]

Sad situation and I hope they find poor Guiness safe and sound.

If it WAS a mistake, you'd think they could just go back to all the deliveries made when Guiness was with that shipper and find out what horses went where. Because a lot of time has gone by, he may have changed hands since then, but it should be fairly easy to follow the trail. That is what makes me think theft is involved - I'm sure they must have checked back, but evidently did not find out where all of the other horses on the van went....

[joiedevie99]

I boarded my retiree at a barn last year where someone sent a horse on trial to a woman. The woman's trainer called to say the horse wasn't working out and she was going to bring it back. The trainer came back and left the wrong horse in the stall. The owner showed up later that afternoon (at the time the trainer was supposed to come) and found a different horse with the same markings in the stall. It was wild. Police were out quickly. She finally got a hold of the woman who had picked up her horse on trial only to find out that the woman had her horse and loved him. She had two days left on the trial but had decided to keep him.

So, it turned out that the trainer was just looking to dump an OTTB that happened to have the same markings and the woman who bought her horse had no clue the trainer was up to anything. All turned out well- the woman dumped the trainer and went through with the purchase of the horse. The mystery horse stayed because everyone felt so bad for him and was sold a few months later with some groceries. You have to wonder, though, how many other people the trainer has tried to scam this way... and how many others are out there.

[Glimmerglass]

Does anyone else remember the weird story about the TB stallion who was supposed to be shipped from the UK (?) to Australia.

The horse in that case was Dubai Excellence (http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2005/s1457235.htm) who ended up in the Ukraine.

Per the Thoroughbred Times (back in 2005) (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/29667/stallion-dubai-excellence-believed-to-be-in-ukraine):

Therefore the real Samood is in Australia and, more than likely, the real Dubai Excellence, a 6-year-old by Highest Honor out of Colorado Dancer, is in Ukraine, the sources, who requested anonymity, told The Blood-Horse.

Both horses were bred by Sheikh Mohammed's Darley Stud. Dubai Excellence was sold by Darley in early January to Ted Van Heemst's Evergreen Stud near Perth, Western Australia, while Samood is believed to have been purchased around the same time by Ukranian interests, the sources said.

Both horses are then understood to have left Darley's direct care for a livery yard before being dispatched to their respective destinations and this is where a mix-up may have occurred, according to those familiar with the case, but investigations have not yet been concluded.

Anyhow back to this sorted tale which makes no sense. While folks can say the FBI is involved (as if that is worth a nickle - the collective agency couldn't find tomorrow on a calender) that and $2.50 will get you a ride on the Subway. Maybe the conenctions watched the movie Changeling and thought "hey, what if that happened to that horse".. who knows.

[onwego]

So what happens to the imposter horse?

[adhock]

I know this horse and Patrick Seaton because my daughter showed the horse extensively for Patrick and the owners in 2007 and 2008. This is a terrific horse--but he was no Children's Jumper: An NAYRC horse, yes, a point and shoot, no. I think that the one time she showed him below level 7 he had no interest in the jumps (maybe some stayed up?)--but over level 7 and he was fantastic and was one of the top junior jumpers on the West Coast! For the life of us, we couldn't figure out why he was doing the Children's Jumpers in Florida but we figured the kid must be a heckofa rider. Brave, strong, funny personality (didn't always go around with a smile on its fence but jumped the moon), honest, no tolerance for boredom, always sound and eager. We kept asking about him in Florida and referred a number of potential buyers who were interested in high jr/a-o horses and we were perplexed when no one tried him.

I urge everyone who's interested in helping to at least go to You-Tube and watch some of his rounds. Most A-circuit California jumper trainers (including the Californian that referred him to Frank Madden and who was in Wellington this whole time) knew this horse -- both because of his record and his distinct way of going. I find it totally improbable that no one from California who was on the WEF showgrounds didn't spot the swapperoo. Call it myopia????

It is common to send junior jumpers to reputable trainers to sell across the country. It takes a while to sell a high-end horse these days--unless you get very lucky. When my daughter was a junior, she rode for lots of people and Patrick and the wonderful owners of Guinness were among the best and only wanted the best for the horse. They doted on him and always put the horse's interest first. Everyone, please keep your eyes and ears open. Check out the videos and please help!

[Roulett]

I know this horse and Patrick Seaton because my daughter showed the horse extensively for Patrick and the owners in 2007 and 2008. This is a terrific horse--but he was no Children's Jumper: An NAYRC horse, yes, a point and shoot, no. I think that the one time she showed him below level 7 he had no interest in the jumps (maybe some stayed up?)--but over level 7 and he was fantastic and was one of the top junior jumpers on the West Coast! For the life of us, we couldn't figure out why he was doing the Children's Jumpers in Florida but we figured the kid must be a heckofa rider. Brave, strong, funny personality (didn't always go around with a smile on its fence but jumped the moon), honest, no tolerance for boredom, always sound and eager. We kept asking about him in Florida and referred a number of potential buyers who were interested in high jr/a-o horses and we were perplexed when no one tried him.

I urge everyone who's interested in helping to at least go to You-Tube and watch some of his rounds. Most A-circuit California jumper trainers (including the Californian that referred him to Frank Madden and who was in Wellington this whole time) knew this horse -- both because of his record and his distinct way of going. I find it totally improbable that no one from California who was on the WEF showgrounds didn't spot the swapperoo. Call it myopia????

It is common to send junior jumpers to reputable trainers to sell across the country. It takes a while to sell a high-end horse these days--unless you get very lucky. When my daughter was a junior, she rode for lots of people and Patrick and the wonderful owners of Guinness were among the best and only wanted the best for the horse. They doted on him and always put the horse's interest first. Everyone, please keep your eyes and ears open. Check out the videos and please help!


I remember this horse winning a huge 1.40M class at Showpark and also remember
he had a second rider -- was that your daughter?

[alterbychoice]

[edit]

I think the first logical step is to ask the hauler where he is.

I truly hope the best for this lovely gelding, he doesn't deserve any of this.

[Long Spot]

Adhock you have a pm.

[Mardi]

Disclaimer: I do not know Frank Madden, and I do not mean to cast any aspersions when I say this:

I ride at a h/j barn, although I'm not a h/j person. At this barn there are 4 h/j trainers, and a cast of clients, horses and ponies.

It is not unusual for a big trailer to come in at any time of the day or night, and pick up or drop off horses. RARELY is a trainer or owner there to send the horse off, or receive the new horse. It's all done by grooms.

The turnover of horses is astounding. Some stay for weeks or months, and then suddenly they're gone. A few stay for a year or more (usually if they're owned by children). Before I moved there, I had never seen anything like it.

It seems entirely plausible that the horse who arrived at Mr. Madden's wasn't the real GG, and no one noticed because chances are the grooms took delivery of the new horse. When it came time for the horse to be taken out of the stall and tacked up, the grooms did that too.

In other words, Mr. Madden never got that close to the horse to see exactly what had arrived from California.

[Mardi]

By the way...wouldn't hurt to get NetPosse involved.

[Foxtrot's]

Geeze I hate that - when old news comes up as new news. So he was never found in six months?

[gwenrowdy]

Apparently the "switch" was just discovered a few days ago; at least that's how I'm understanding it.

[horsegurl]

what happened to the original thread about the missing GP horse?

I think we gotta keep this top of mind--for the horses sake.

[caffeinated]

Probably removed from naming names and conjecture about the people involved.

The most recent news I saw was an article on thehorse.com that mentioned finding a European microchip in the imposter horse.

[cloudyandcallie]

Probably removed from naming names and conjecture about the people involved.

The most recent news I saw was an article on thehorse.com that mentioned finding a European microchip in the imposter horse.

RNB said it got poofed last night after I told her about it.
Oh good an european microchip? I didnt think they did much chipping over there.
Well they will at least know who the importer was of the fauxgoodguinness.
You can go to HSS BB for uncensored thread.

[ChocoMare]

It was moved to a new COTH Forum called ANNOUNCEMENTS under "Missing Horses" :D

Ta dah: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=98

[elsbet]

The post in the Missing Horses area doesn't have much information. Is there somewhere else that we can get more information? Sorry, but I'm not sure which board HSS is?

[cloudyandcallie]

horseshowspy.com
under the bus
scandal of the decade or something like that thread. the info was copied to coth.

[caffeinated]

The post in the Missing Horses area doesn't have much information. Is there somewhere else that we can get more information? Sorry, but I'm not sure which board HSS is?

There's also more info on HC's hunter/jumper board (pretty much a copy from HSS, though)

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

It was moved to a new COTH Forum called ANNOUNCEMENTS under "Missing Horses" :D

Ta dah: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=98

They really should have kept that thread here. It will recieve more notice on this board.

[lonewolf]

When they moved the thread they also deleted all the posts.

[War Admiral]

They really should have kept that thread here. It will recieve more notice on this board.

Agreed, agreed. Not to mention, "Announcements" should be at the TOP of the forum list, don'tcha think?? :confused:

[california_jumper08]

Its pretty crazy stuff! I know most of the players involved in this little drama so I'll try to keep everyone posted on here about any new devolpements :) I don't post here much, but I figured there would be much speculation and interest about this one.

[bascher]

The trainer (?) Patrick Seaton posted over on HSS, but he had nothing new to report about the situation.

[Fallbrook]

RNB said it got poofed last night after I told her about it.
Oh good an european microchip? I didnt think they did much chipping over there.

The Oldenburg Verband Microchips horses they inspect in the US and they take DNA samples. I imagine they do so in Germany as well, although the imposter horse had a Holsteiner brand, I believe.

[Mardi]

They really should have kept that thread here. It will recieve more notice on this board.

yep.

[Mardi]

You can go to HSS BB for uncensored thread.

can't log in...

[anna's girl]

Me either.

[DidleyZip]

Oh good an european microchip? I didnt think they did much chipping over there.

They are all microchipped now before being shipping over here.

[Roulett]

Let's take another good look at GG - I cropped it a bit from an email I just got. I have
seen this horse jump at LAEC and Showpark, he has a big jump, easy to recognize...
He is out there somewhere --



http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo27/russianjumper86/GG1.jpg

[Party Rose]

Will be moved to a new COTH Forum called ANNOUNCEMENTS and then it'll be listed under "Missing Horses" is my interpretation. The Forum (like Off Course, Dressage, etc....) will be up and running as soon as COTH can get it up.

[Roulett]

Will be moved to a new COTH Forum called ANNOUNCEMENTS and then it'll be listed under "Missing Horses" is my interpretation. The Forum (like Off Course, Dressage, etc....) will be up and running as soon as COTH can get it up.

I think it's important to keep GG's picture in front of everyone, no matter where
the thread ends up --- could be someone sees the pic who hasn't been online
or didn't received the email blasts regarding same. JMO

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

I'm suprised "they" haven't moved the thread and it's replies back. Regardless of the names mentioned almost all the replies contained valuable information and pieces to the puzzle... Dissapointed

Everyones in a tiff about it on facebook/HSS

[Moderator 1]

...this thread also contained a fair amount of speculation and accusations, which violates board policy. As this case is also being reported by mainstream media, we've reinstated the thread in the main forum.

Here's a link to The Horse article (http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=13763)referenced.

We've removed or edited some posts to comply with board policy, which we urge all posters to adhere to if the thread is to remain open.

Thanks!
Mod 1

ETA: The Announcements forum is still a work in progress. If the format works, once we get the other subforums up, the location may change. Feel free to PM with input. :)

[cloudyandcallie]

Sad situation and I hope they find poor Guiness safe and sound.

If it WAS a mistake, you'd think they could just go back to all the deliveries made when Guiness was with that shipper and find out what horses went where. Because a lot of time has gone by, he may have changed hands since then, but it should be fairly easy to follow the trail. That is what makes me think theft is involved - I'm sure they must have checked back, but evidently did not find out where all of the other horses on the van went....

Yes, first if it were my horse, I'd want to know if the right horse was loaded on the transport. If so, then I'd want a manifest of every horse being delivered on that shipment, and every stop and layover on the trip. Then I'd hire a private detective to go to every barn and interview everyone who had a horse on that shipment, and I'd want to look at those horses. Someone may have gotten the wrong horse and decided it was a better deal that getting their horse. And I'd want to know if there was a switch after he got to his destination. So I'd want pix of the horse showing last year as GG in the East.
It's a hard and expensive thing to have to do, but deductive invetigation can eliminate some of the suspects.
And the FBI "ain't Elliot Ness," so don't expect them to solve this problem, unless an insurance company is pushing in. In fact, I'd think the ins. co for this horse would send out it's investigators to find out what happened. Insurance investigators are usually very good.

[fordtraktor]

Or if the horses looked pretty much alike (sounds like they did), the person who got GG could have been like "whew, he sure jumps better than he did on the video!" and been happy with their new horse. I would not automatically assume that if a switch happened in transport, the person who got the horse knew about it any more than the Maddens did. Could have, but maybe not.

What a wild story.

[caffeinated]

Or if the horses looked pretty much alike (sounds like they did), the person who got GG could have been like "whew, he sure jumps better than he did on the video!" and been happy with their new horse. I would not automatically assume that if a switch happened in transport, the person who got the horse knew about it any more than the Maddens did. Could have, but maybe not.

I dunno, from what I've been hearing the horse isn't an easy ride- if someone was expecting a nice, easy, lower level type jumper, and got GG, they might not be so thrilled. (I thought the same thing at first, till I learned more).

Then again, I have a niggling suspicion that this isn't as simple as an accidental switchup, but to say any more would be total conjecture I suppose.

[fordtraktor]

It would definitely be my guess that this is not a mixup, but if that is the case I doubt someone unsuspecting got the horse and just decided to keep it instead of fessing up. It is most likely this was all planned by someone on purpose.

You're quite right, it is very possible they IF there was a mixup they got GG and were disappointed in their horse that had sounded easy to ride. It is just so hard to say what happened, but it is also unfair to presume that someone was just handed this grand prix jumper and decided that rather than telling someone there was a mistake they would just keep it. I would just think that would be the most unlikely of all.

[War Admiral]

Thanks for bringing the thread back.

I've got to be honest: my sympathies lie with the horse. He didn't ask for this, and it looks like he was a solid citizen who worked hard and did the job well for his connections. I pray that he is found alive and well, I really do.

But I'm sorry, I'm of two minds about this. The whole thing sends up red flags. I'm all in favor of frank and open discussion about it because (a) it might help find the horse, which is paramount; (b) there are sad lessons to be learned here for the rest of us, like CHECK ON YOUR HORSE no matter WHOSE sale barn you are sending it to; and (c) there is a LOT of ugly back story on a LOT (though not all) of the people who are known to have been in the horse's chain of custody during its last known hours, and I truly believe those who weren't around for all that the first time need to be aware that these are repeat offenders who were set down for very valid reasons that didn't just happen once, but again and again and again. That is the fact.

I hope they find the horse safe and sound, I really do.

[LetsChat]

For anyone who's interested, I found a video of the horse on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuZrbkAqdnM

What a cool horse, this is a tradgedy. Hopefully the horse is well where ever he is, if not that would be a complete shame. I haven't been able to read all the posts, the thread was gone for a day or so but I do want to comment so here goes. As for the horse being demoted, that might not be a HUGE red flag, what if a wealthy young kid wants a horse to move up to the Juniors with but is just stepping into the jumpers, you would probably put them in the C/A first. Also, it really isn't THAT unheard of for people to buy horses that are way outclassed of the division. ie. buy a regular working hunter to do the A/A hunters. If you have money and you want a horse that won't blink if you put them wrong you buy them with a surplus of scope. I also don't think it is that odd that he sent the horse to a BNT for the sale and didn't follow up until Florida. Like others have said Frank was probably at all the indoors and Syracuse, then the holidays, maybe he had people hacking the horse and lessoning but it wasn't until the circuit that it became glaring the horse was misrepresented, or unbenounced to him, the wrong horse. This is just such a shame. I hope the horse is returned safe and sound.... Also, on a totally different note, I saw the flyer, what do you think happened to the stand-ins front teeth.... A cribber or an accident, just curious because it seems like they are really worn down....

[LetsChat]

So if it was an honest mistake, then where were they supposed to deliver the Ch/AA jumper to? Can it be that hard? Let's say they put 10 horses on the van, and let's suppose one was delivered to Arizona, one to New Mexico, five to Texas, one to Louisiana, and two to Florida. Can't they just call those people? Isn't there some kid somewhere that bought a Ch/AA jumper that now has a strong horse with a really huge jump that wonders if it was the same horse she tried? Where are the other horse's owners or buyers? This other horse didn't just appear out of thin air!

The fact that this other horse just appeared and looks similar raises a red flag to me. If not, wouldn't the owners of the other horse would be wondering, too?

The only problem with this is that if someone got a competitive GP horse for a C/A price they may have flipped it (I mean quickly resold, not flip in the idea of missing a jump)... Unfortunately.

[satori]

The hauler that Patrick Seaton hired to transport GG was Earl Jacque, and the last stop before Frank Madden's was Barney Ward's. All people dealing with Barney Ward in the last six months should be notified so that they can verifify that a mistake has not been made, and they did not receive the wrong horse.

[donotbotherme]

The hauler that Patrick Seaton hired to transport GG was Earl Jacque, and the last stop before Frank Madden's was Barney Ward's. All people dealing with Barney Ward in the last six months should be notified so that they can verifify that a mistake has not been made, and they did not receive the wrong horse.

A horse fitting the description named Kayne is winning in the Junior/A/O jumpers at Gulfport. Owned by McClain Ward, ridden by a different junior find pictures, looks exactly like the horse.... No previous show record before 11/08... If it is the horse, the horse is safe and well cared for....

[adhock]

A number of you have asked if I have any snaps. I just dug these up and sent to Patrick. If the horse is being ridden by a junior now, it might help to get the visual...

http://community.webshots.com/album/570492574wZGzbh

[2bayboys]

A horse fitting the description named Kayne is winning in the Junior/A/O jumpers at Gulfport. Owned by McClain Ward, ridden by a different junior find pictures, looks exactly like the horse.... No previous show record before 11/08... If it is the horse, the horse is safe and well cared for....


Now isn't THAT interesting?!!! ;)

[caffeinated]

A horse fitting the description named Kayne is winning in the Junior/A/O jumpers at Gulfport.

Kanye, you mean. :)

[luvs2ridewbs]

anyone have a photo/video of that horse?

[Phaxxton]

A horse fitting the description named Kayne is winning in the Junior/A/O jumpers at Gulfport. Owned by McClain Ward, ridden by a different junior find pictures, looks exactly like the horse.... No previous show record before 11/08... If it is the horse, the horse is safe and well cared for....


There is a picture of Kanye on this web page: http://www.resolutionfarm.com/Horses%20Sold.html

He appears more bay (and not as black) to me than the picture of GG on the flyer... The star marking looks similar.

[CoolMeadows]

Go here: http://www.flashpointphotography.com/ and search Gulf Coast week 3, horse is Kanye.

Is that him?

[caffeinated]

Go here: http://www.flashpointphotography.com/ and search Gulf Coast week 3, horse is Kanye.

There are more pics in week 1 and week 2, if that helps anybody.

[tidy rabbit]

There is a picture of Kanye on this web page: http://www.resolutionfarm.com/Horses%20Sold.html

He appears more bay (and not as black) to me than the picture of GG on the flyer... The star marking looks similar.

I would hazard to guess a change in color is because the horse has been body clipped. The clipped dark horse is always a little lighter. Wonder if it is the same horse?

I knew a woman in CA who had a bay horse shipped across the country. She saw it once, bought it and had it shipped. When it arrived she came to see it at the farm. She rode it and enjoyed the horse but was never certain it was the horse she'd bought.

Fascinating story going on here with all the parties involved. :rolleyes:

I hope the owners find their horse safe and sound. :(

[arktos19]

Wow. Just compared a head-on photo of Kanye from Gulfport with the photo of Good Guiness on the Patrick Seaton missing horse flyer and the resemblance is strong.

[tidy rabbit]

Same here. That star is unusual and it sure looks like the same horse.

[RHdobes563]

The star does look like GG's...

[CoolMeadows]

Wow. Just compared a head-on photo of Kanye from Gulfport with the photo of Good Guiness on the Patrick Seaton missing horse flyer and the resemblance is strong.

It really is a strong resemblance. The star is unique with roany spots in it. I hope it's him and this gets sorted out quickly.

[Mardi]

The similarity between those two horses- Kanye and GG- is uncanny.

Not only is the star the same, but the jumping style (forelegs) is nearly identical.

Good sleuthing !

[Quinn]

Has anyone informed the owner/agent of the possible "mix up?"

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[2bayboys]

Very amateur photo comparison, GG on left, Kanye on right.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2129301590100462194neZlph

What an amazing coincidence!! :cool:

[Moesha]

Wow there are a few pictures from Gulfport in the welcome where the head, neck and jumping style are almost identical to pictures on the CA barn site one's.....it sure does look like the same horse...

Wow what a strange situation...

[Moesha]

Very amateur photo comparison, GG on left, Kanye on right.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2129301590100462194neZlph

What an amazing coincidence!! :cool:

Wow that is the same horse!

[caffeinated]

Thanks for that side-by-side... looks the same to me.

[Phaxxton]

I would hazard to guess a change in color is because the horse has been body clipped.

Yes, good point and entirely possible.

Wow. Just compared a head-on photo of Kanye from Gulfport with the photo of Good Guiness on the Patrick Seaton missing horse flyer and the resemblance is strong.

After reading this, I did the same thing... and I agree. That is a very distinctive marking and the resemblance is striking.

Agree with all that I just hope the horse - whether Kanye or not - is found safe and sound and returned to its rightful owner. :yes:

[Beethoven]

There is definatly a close enough resemblance that it needs to be looked into!!

Has anyone notified Patrick??

[LearnToFly]

This is so cool

[tidy rabbit]

I'd be on a plane right now....

That can't be a coincidence.

[2bayboys]

Somebody might have some 'splainin to do. :mad:

[CoolMeadows]

Has anyone informed the owner/agent of the possible "mix up?"

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

I'd imagine Patrick has been informed before it hit COTH, but I emailed him the link to the pix in Gulfport.

[Reds-n-Greys]

Love he's even being ridden in the same type of noseband....

Looks like the power of COTH may have struck again!

[lawn chair]

What a fantastic (not in a good way) story! You couldn't make this up if you tried. Here's hoping it's the same horse and that he is in good condition. And that the inevitable financial/legal nightmare is resolved quickly.

[Beethoven]

I still want to know who the imposter is! I am interested to hear what his mircochip comes back as! They should know by today according to HSS.com.

[ComeAbout]

Unless someone has already informed the powers that be instead of just posting this info here, I suspect "Kanye" will suddenly and mysteriously disappear as well...

[Beethoven]

Maybe someone here should call Patrick then. I am not nominating myself though as I have horrible phone skills!

[Dun Ciarain]

Love he's even being ridden in the same type of noseband....


Well, I wouldn't put too much into the noseband - it is the most overused noseband in jumpers today.

[CoolMeadows]

Maybe someone here should call Patrick then. I am not nominating myself though as I have horrible phone skills!

I just talked to him, he is going to check his email for the link I sent to the Gulfport pix. He sounds so upset, poor guy!

[2bayboys]

Just want to make it clear that I am NOT Martha S on HSS. My webshots link was copied from here.

[Beethoven]

I just talked to him, he is going to check his email for the link I sent to the Gulfport pix. He sounds so upset, poor guy!

I am glad he was notified!

[Callierin]

Gulf Coast Mid Winter III - February 18-22, 2009

5th $4,000 Open Jumper 1.30m - Ami Des Gemmes, Owner: Richard & Donna Marki, Rider: Amanda Flint
6th $1,000 Open Jumper 1.35m - VDL Theresa Lady, Owner/Rider: Amanda Flint
4th $7,000 Open Jumper 1.40m - Texas Hold 'Em, Owner: Kathleen Kamine, Rider: Amanda Flint
2nd YJC 5 Yr Olds 1.15m - Largo, Owner: Richard & Donna Marki, Rider: Amanda Flint
4th $1,000 YJC 6Yr Olds 1.20m - Wrenegade, Owner/Rider: Amanda Flint
5th $1,000 YJC 6Yr Olds 1.20m - VDL Chinedine, Owner: Gilliam Dunleavy, Rider: Amanda Flint
4th $1,000 YJC 7/8 Yr Olds 1.30m - Ami Des Gemmes, Owner: Richard & Donna Marki, Rider: Amanda Flint
7th Green Conformation Handy Hunter - Superboy, Owner: Kathleen Kamine, Rider: Amanda Flint
6th Green Conformation Hunter Model - Superboy, Owner: Kathleen Kamine, Rider: Amanda Flint
Green Conformation Hunter: 5th, 8th, 7th & 8th U/S - Superboy, Owner: Kathleen Kamine, Rider: Amanda Flint
2nd $500 Jr-A/O Jumper 1.30m - Kanye, Owner: Maclain Ward, Rider: Maria Van Buskirk
1st $500 Jr-A/O Jumper 1.30m - Kanye, Owner: Maclain Ward, Rider: Maria Van Buskirk
4th NHJL Low Jr-A/O Jpr Classic 1.30m - Kanye, Owner: Maclain Ward, Rider: Maria Van Buskirk
Champion Jr-A/O Jumper Division 1.3m - Kanye, Owner: Maclain Ward, Rider: Maria Van Buskirk

from the results page on www.resolutionfarm.com - sellers of "Kanye"

[Phaxxton]

I just talked to him, he is going to check his email for the link I sent to the Gulfport pix. He sounds so upset, poor guy!

I'm really glad you were able to get in touch with him! :)

[2bayboys]

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." William Shakespeare

[Dispatcher]

Maclain Ward needs to be notified. I want to hear his version of events.

[luvs2ridewbs]

If it is the same horse, he sure is doing well in the jr jumpers. Maybe his rider will want to buy him from Patrick and things will turn out for the best.

[Moesha]

I still want to know who the imposter is! I am interested to hear what his mircochip comes back as! They should know by today according to HSS.com.

I feel badly for that horse too...who knows where he is supposed to be...and the fact he is being called the imposter horse! :(

[adhock]

Sure looks like the same horse to me. Top line a bit different, thinner, but that could be the result of 6 months in a different program. If this is the case, it would make sense particularly if Guinniss had been dropped at the Wards prior to or just after the layup in Brewster. In any event, if true, this would be an one birthday (tomorrow) that Patrick won't forget! Here's hoping...

[ComeAbout]

Notify Mclain Ward?! Are you CRAZY?! Time is of the essence here. A trapped animal is a dangerous animal... "Kanye's" very existence relies on swift and immediate action by the proper authorities. This isn't a just a little game of cat and mouse. The players in this scenario are not newbies. Since Patrick has indeed been informed, lets everyone just wait and hope that it's not too late already!

[Ibex]

Notify Mclain Ward?! Are you CRAZY?! Time is of the essence here. A trapped animal is a dangerous animal... "Kanye's" very existence relies on swift and immediate action by the proper authorities. This isn't a just a little game of cat and mouse. The players in this scenario are not newbies. Since Patrick has indeed been informed, lets everyone just wait and hope that it's not too late already!

Overdramatic much? :cool:

[War Admiral]

I choose to refrain from further speculation at this point, but how's'about donotbotherme as COTH Poster of the Year??

*applause*

[cloudyandcallie]

Great detective work and kudos to whomever made the comparison between Gulfport and GG.

[Roulett]

Very amateur photo comparison, GG on left, Kanye on right.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2129301590100462194neZlph

What an amazing coincidence!! :cool:

wow, really close, maybe too close!

[CoolMeadows]

He isn't in the results or pix after week 3 and they're finishing up week 6 of Gulfport now.

Where's Kanye now?

[vxf111]

Overdramatic much? :cool:

You do know what Barney Ward has admitted he did in the past, right? I don't think it's overdramatic to suggest that he might engage in some "foul play" if discovered switching horses.

[QM2]

I really think everyone needs to take a DEEP breath.

What makes you think that this wasn't a simple mistake on the Ward's part as well as Frank's team.

My guess is that the mix up happened with the shipper.

1) Shipper got horse confused.
2) Grooms took GG from shipper thinking that it was mystery horse.
3) Grooms at Frank's barn took mystery horse thinking that it was GG.
4) Both horses perform at a reasonable high degree.
5) Ward's rider's were thrilled with horse they were riding and Barney sold horse to McClain thinking we have us a great deal.
6) Frank's thinks horse isn't quite what they were told but is ok. Will try in lower divisions to see what happens.

I really don't think that this is a case of a stolen horse I think it is more like a simple mix up.

[LetsChat]

I choose to refrain from further speculation at this point, but how's'about donotbotherme as COTH Poster of the Year??

*applause*

Based on the name and the fact that it was their one and only post I am thinking this person probably isn't going to show up ever again. Touchy situation but good sluething. I feel bad for the kid riding the horse, they probably paid a pretty penny for a lease on a winning Junior Jumper and to be involved in this is just a mess. Especially after winning so much at Gulfport. It looks like the horse is healthy and sound and obviously doing well with the junior rider which honestly is the MOST important thing!!! :yes:

[half seat]

I think we all need to RELAX. The horses look similar. Lots of horses look similar. It's a good lead, yes, and the lead has been communicated. Let Patrick, GG's owner, and the authorities take it from here... and I think we all need to stop jumping to the conclusion that this is DEFINITELY GG. I'm sure that will be sorted out with time.

[LetsChat]

If you go back to the results posted it looks like the horse is being LEASED out by McClain and not showing with him as the trainer but from another barn..... Contact them and maybe they know where he is. I highly doubt the leaser's (people leasing and paying the bills) have any idea they are being duped or are involved in this. They probably think they are just leasing a great horse from an Olympic gold winner. Really that is the shame, that those people may have to return a horse. Shady business....

[CoolMeadows]

Kanye IS Good Guinness according to Patrick. Anyone showing in Tampa now? The shipper may have been confused, but he has made some interesting statements that will come out once GG is home and safe.

[JustJump]

Notify Mclain Ward?! Are you CRAZY?! Time is of the essence here. A trapped animal is a dangerous animal... "Kanye's" very existence relies on swift and immediate action by the proper authorities. This isn't a just a little game of cat and mouse. The players in this scenario are not newbies. Since Patrick has indeed been informed, lets everyone just wait and hope that it's not too late already!

What on earth are you drinking?

The horse is RECORDED under McLain's name, LEASED to a junior, who is paying full training board on it, and it's WINNING.

I don't think McLain is about to jeopardize his prospects by vanishing Kanye. What would he have to gain?

I have yet to hear a scenario offered that would explain how this could possibly have been a purposeful switch? Where's the benefit to the criminals?

Glad it looks like the horse is found. I hope the other one is doing well now that it's not expected to jump the big fences!

[War Admiral]

Based on the name and the fact that it was their one and only post I am thinking this person probably isn't going to show up ever again.

Oh, I agree, and trust me, I also totally understand why. Whoever s/he is, posting that, even under an alter, took real, real, REAL guts. I'm just saying I don't think that fact should be overlooked.

[half seat]

Kanye IS Good Guinness according to Patrick.


Thanks. Hadn't seen that posted yet... I hope Patrick is able to get him back safe and sound.

From a link posted earlier, it looks like Kanye is with a rider out of Resolution farm -- www.resolutionfarm.com -- I'm sure someone at the barn would know where he is now.

[vxf111]

If the Resolution Farm website is correct, Mclain has owned the Kanye horse for some time and leased it to Resolution. Then I assume it went back to him when the lease was up. Mclain didn't notice that his horse looks entirely different when he got it back? I can believe that someone taking a horse to sell might not know it's mannerisms/markings-- but Mclain didn't recognize that his horse looked different?

Where was Good Guiness coming from anyway? From Patrick's in California. Resolution is in NJ, so is Frank Madden (NYC suburbs, right?). The Wards are somewhere in New England. I am missing why a stop was made in New England on a horse going from California to NJ/NY. This is assuming that the horse didn't go from a show or to a show, but assuming it went from barn to barn-- why would you stop in New England between Cali and NJ/NY?

[vxf111]

I have yet to hear a scenario offered that would explain how this could possibly have been a purposeful switch? Where's the benefit to the criminals?

Free trade up of a winning junior jumper for a winning GP horse?

[eqrider1234]

Oh, I agree, and trust me, I also totally understand why. Whoever s/he is, posting that, even under an alter, took real, real, REAL guts. I'm just saying I don't think that fact should be overlooked.

wait what did they say? and that is good guiness, the resemblence is uncanny.... i cant believe the names i was reading barney ward? that aint no coincidence.. :eek::eek::eek::eek:

[caffeinated]

Brewster is in NY, not New England.

Either way, I'm not sure "Kanye" was at resolution, it just said the horse was leased to a rider from that farm (the same rider who rode him at Gulfport). And since the horse was shipped from CA six months ago, it all could have happened within that time frame (even if it was just a mixup)

[joiedevie99]

Where was Good Guiness coming from anyway? From Patrick's in California. Resolution is in NJ, so is Frank Madden (NYC suburbs, right?). The Wards are somewhere in New England. I am missing why a stop was made in New England on a horse going from California to NJ/NY. This is assuming that the horse didn't go from a show or to a show, but assuming it went from barn to barn-- why would you stop in New England between Cali and NJ/NY?

The Wards are in NY as well.

[S A McKee]

?

Resolution is in NJ, so is Frank Madden (NYC suburbs, right?). The Wards are somewhere in New England. I am missing why a stop was made in New England on a horse going from California to NJ/NY. This is assuming that the horse didn't go from a show or to a show, but assuming it went from barn to barn-- why would you stop in New England between Cali and NJ/NY?

Frank Madden is at Hunters Moon on Long Island. Not NJ.
Wards are in Brewster NY

[vxf111]

Okay, I couldn't remember where the Wards were. If they're in NY, then it makes the explanation of the stopover more reasonable. I think I got Barney confused with Paul V. One of them is in New England, it must be Paul.

[LetsChat]

If the Resolution Farm website is correct, Mclain has owned the Kanye horse for some time and leased it to Resolution. Then I assume it went back to him when the lease was up. Mclain didn't notice that his horse looks entirely different when he got it back? I can believe that someone taking a horse to sell might not know it's mannerisms/markings-- but Mclain didn't recognize that his horse looked different?

Where was Good Guiness coming from anyway? From Patrick's in California. Resolution is in NJ, so is Frank Madden (NYC suburbs, right?). The Wards are somewhere in New England. I am missing why a stop was made in New England on a horse going from California to NJ/NY. This is assuming that the horse didn't go from a show or to a show, but assuming it went from barn to barn-- why would you stop in New England between Cali and NJ/NY?

If McClain has owned the horse for some time how come the USEF only shows a record for the horse as of 11/08. McClain never showed this prize Junior / A/O - GP horse or never leased it before. I am sure that is what Resolution farm was told, why would he say, oh I got this horse on a shady deal but pay me for the lease. Has no other show record, too fishy!

[half seat]

If the Resolution Farm website is correct, Mclain has owned the Kanye horse for some time and leased it to Resolution. Then I assume it went back to him when the lease was up. Mclain didn't notice that his horse looks entirely different when he got it back? I can believe that someone taking a horse to sell might not know it's mannerisms/markings-- but Mclain didn't recognize that his horse looked different?



Curious where it says that on the Resolution farm web site. I can't find that the horse was owned by MW for some time and then returned... The horse showed as recently as February 4th with a rider listed on the Resolution Farm web site...

[War Admiral]

A horse fitting the description named Kayne is winning in the Junior/A/O jumpers at Gulfport. Owned by McClain Ward, ridden by a different junior find pictures, looks exactly like the horse.... No previous show record before 11/08... If it is the horse, the horse is safe and well cared for....

FBO EqRider: donotbotherme is the one who initially posted the POSSIBLE connection of dots...

[vxf111]

If McClain has owned the horse for some time how come the USEF only shows a record for the horse as of 11/08. McClain never showed this prize Junior / A/O - GP horse or never leased it before. I am sure that is what Resolution farm was told, why would he say, oh I got this horse on a shady deal but pay me for the lease. Has no other show record, too fishy!

Oh sorry...

I probably wasn't clear.

All I was trying to say is that Mclain must have had the horse some time PRIOR to the mixup. It wasn't like it was sent to him from Kalamazoo and he (like Frank Madden) had a horse come off the trailer that he never saw before.

Sometime prior (we don't know when) to the purported switch-- "Kanye" was at Resolution. Resolution says "thanks for leasing us this horse, Mclain."

All I am saying is that it indicates Mclain owned the Kanye horse some time prior to the switch, if that's what happened. Resolution clearly don't have him now or else why did they post "thanks for sending us this horse" and list him under sold horse. Maybe I am misinterpreting that?

I might not scrutinize the coggins on a horse I've never seen before, to see if the markings match-- but I sure as heck can tell you whether horses I OWN have a faded/roany star or a small filled star.

[80s rider]

Did McClain think his horses TEETH grew back? Someone must have noticed that!

[half seat]

Oh sorry...

I probably wasn't clear.

All I was trying to say is that Mclain must have had the horse some time PRIOR to the mixup. It wasn't like it was sent to him from Kalamazoo and he (like Frank Madden) had a horse come off the trailer that he never saw before.

Sometime prior (we don't know when) to the purported switch-- "Kanye" was at Resolution. Resolution says "thanks for leasing us this horse, Mclain."

All I am saying is that it indicates Mclain owned the Kanye horse some time prior to the switch, if that's what happened. Resolution clearly don't have him now or else why did they post "thanks for sending us this horse" and list him under sold horse. Maybe I am misinterpreting that?

I might not scrutinize the coggins on a horse I've never seen before, to see if the markings match-- but I sure as heck can tell you whether horses I OWN have a faded/roany star or a small filled star.


I interpret that section of the "Horses Sold" to mean that the horse was leased TO the rider at Resolution Farm by McClain Ward. That's all, not that the lease was up. The horse is still showing with that rider. Their results are listed on the Resolution Farm web site. I don't think that post in the horses sold section means that the lease is up or the horse is no longer at that farm.

I think the web site indicates that Resolution Farm clearly has the horse now - at least as of last month. The horse is competing with the same rider that's listed on their web site. The web site even lists their results.

[caffeinated]

Oh sorry...

I probably wasn't clear.

All I was trying to say is that Mclain must have had the horse some time PRIOR to the mixup. It wasn't like it was sent to him from Kalamazoo and he (like Frank Madden) had a horse come off the trailer that he never saw before.

Sometime prior (we don't know when) to the purported switch-- "Kanye" was at Resolution. Resolution says "thanks for leasing us this horse, Mclain."

Yeah, but "some time" can mean different things.

The mixup supposedly happened in September- that's more than enough time for him to lease the horse to another farm or rider, prior to the horse going to Gulfport (where he showed with the rider mentioned on the resolution page)

[vxf111]

I interpret that section of the "Horses Sold" to mean that the horse was leased TO the rider at Resolution Farm by McClain Ward. That's all, not that the lease was up. The horse is still showing with that rider. Their results are listed on the Resolution Farm web site. I don't think that post in the horses sold section means that the lease is up or the horse is no longer at that farm.

You might be right. I would have thought though, if they still had the horse, he wouldn't be listed on the "sold" page. You might be right.

[Long Spot]

Did McClain think his horses TEETH grew back? Someone must have noticed that!


Just to lighten the mood..

Don't you know you never look a gift horse in the mouth, 80's rider? ;)

Just glad to here there seems to be a solid lead here. I'm going to wait until Patrick is able to say more before I say anything else.

[LetsChat]

Just to lighten the mood..

Don't you know you never look a gift horse in the mouth, 80's rider? ;)

Just glad to here there seems to be a solid lead here. I'm going to wait until Patrick is able to say more before I say anything else.

And as I have said before the horse is competing and doing well which means he is being taken care of, is healthy, sound, in the US and unfortunately just the brunt of a big mixup or scam.

[vxf111]

All I know is that I hope the threads get unravelled and everyone gets back the horse they should have-- and that the horses are no worse for wear.

It sure is a FUNNY coincidence, no? I mean, commercial shippers much haul boatloads of plain bay TBs back and forth from sales, and somehow manage not to switch them up all the time?! Nobody, no groom, no rider, NOBODY noticed that the Kanye horse seemed different?!

[LearnToFly]

So is the mystery horse that showed up in place of Good Guinness actually the real Kanye?

[Dispatcher]

Did McClain think his horses TEETH grew back? Someone must have noticed that!


That's too funny!! Exactly waht I was thinking.

So is the Imposter horse really Kanye?? Someone really needs to talk to Maclain Ward!

[Long Spot]

That's what I'm really interested to hear about.

WAS there a Kanye on the van with Guinny. That's the question of the hour, I think.

[LetsChat]

That's what I'm really interested to hear about.

WAS there a Kanye on the van with Guinny. That's the question of the hour, I think.

There are only two Kanye's registered with the USEF, the other one seems to have an extensive show record in the A/O - Junior hunters to Regular Workings. At one time owned by Don Stewart. I am thinking Kanye just appeared and the imposter horse was just a poor sole that looked like him and could jump a reasonable height. Probably a horse the Wards wanted to get rid of or someone swapped on a trade. I doubt anyone is looking for that horse. Sorry to say that but just a hunch. I hope this gets resolved, people need to be honest, it would solve so many of the worlds problems!!!

[2bayboys]

According to thehorse.com, the imposter horse has been identified.

'Imposter' Horse Identified in Missing Jumper Case
by: Liz Brown
March 12 2009, Article # 13770

A horse that was purported to be missing Irish Sport Horse Good Guinness has been identified as a horse named Con Air. This horse was imported from Holland in 2004, according to New Jersey trainer Frank Madden, who received Con Air in place of Good Guinness last September.
"That's all we know at this point," said Madden said.

California-based trainer Patrick Seaton said he shipped Good Guinness to Madden last fall, in hopes the horse would sell on the East Coast. However, a different horse was delivered to Madden as Good Guinness.

The switch only came to light last week, when Seaton went to check on Good Guinness at the Winter Equestrian Festival in Wellington, Fla.

Since distributing a flyer about the missing horse, Seaton says he has received several suggestions.

"We have a few leads, and we're following up on them," Seaton said.

[LearnToFly]

....so.... how did GG turn into Kanye?

[Midge]

Notify Mclain Ward?! Are you CRAZY?! Time is of the essence here. A trapped animal is a dangerous animal... "Kanye's" very existence relies on swift and immediate action by the proper authorities. This isn't a just a little game of cat and mouse. The players in this scenario are not newbies. Since Patrick has indeed been informed, lets everyone just wait and hope that it's not too late already!


Holy Cow, let's unsaddle the drama llamas. IF this is the same horse, it appears to be in the posession of a lessee. IF there is a sneaky deal going on here, it is all over the Internet and offing the horse would not be a wise choice.

[Roulett]

....so.... how did GG turn into Kanye?

who's the owner of Con Air?

[Quinn]

Sorry Midge but I disagree. Until this is figured out and GG is found and safely with his owners, his safety is a concern.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Janet]

IF this is the same horse, it appears to be in the posession of a lessee. How can it be "in possesion of a lessee" if it is competing in Amateur Owner classes?

[tidy rabbit]

who's the owner of Con Air?

The irony of that name.....

[vxf111]

Is there a three way switch (in which case, the person who thinks they have Con Air has Kanye-- unbeliveable that 3 people haven't noticed not entirely subtle differences between horses) OR is Kanye actually Con Air renamed (or they never showed him as Con Air, just as Kanye?)

[half seat]

How can it be "in possesion of a lessee" if it is competing in Amateur Owner classes?

They are Jr / AO classes. Is it possible the rider is a junior?

[arktos19]

How can it be "in possesion of a lessee" if it is competing in Amateur Owner classes?

GG/Kanye was being ridden by a junior in low junior/ao jumpers

[caffeinated]

There is a dutch Con Air registered with USEF, but I looked up pictures, because I'm an insane web-stalker, and it's definitely not a horse that could be confused with the other two.

Though perhaps I should webstalk the other three Con Airs and see if any of them match up.

But I'm guessing he came from Europe with that name, and didn't show under it if he showed here... Just a guess.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

How can it be "in possesion of a lessee" if it is competing in Amateur Owner classes?

It appears the horse shows in the Junior Jumpers, not the A/Os.

[Peggy]

There are four Con Airs in the USEF database (first attachment). Two are bay. One of those is a gelding. Show record of gelding, which ends in Sept 08 are is second attachment.

[HCF]

They are Jr / AO classes. Is it possible the rider is a junior?

Yes, I think it was mentioned a few pages back that Kanye is being shown by a junior.

[Janet]

They are Jr / AO classes. Is it possible the rider is a junior?
Thanks,

I didn't notice the Jr part.

[CoolMeadows]

Con Air... oh my what a fitting name!

I don't know how GG became Kanye but one of the players is saying, "Kanye can't be GG, I was there when MW imported Kanye and he has white socks!"

The Kanye/GG in the pictures definitely doesn't have white socks. Weird story.

[caffeinated]

There are four Con Airs in the USEF database (first attachment). Two are bay. One of those is a gelding. Show record of gelding, which ends in Sept 08 are is second attachment.

That's the one I looked up- found him on a photographer's website and he has a big white blaze and socks. :)

[Quinn]

Just gets curiouser and curiouser doesn't it?

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[LearnToFly]

There are four Con Airs in the USEF database (first attachment). Two are bay. One of those is a gelding. Show record of gelding, which ends in Sept 08 are is second attachment.

There's a picture of that horse on page 25 of this pdf:
http://www.saltblockgazette.com/files/SBjuly08.pdf
No way that wouldn't be noticed.

[LetsChat]

Con Air... oh my what a fitting name!

I don't know how GG became Kanye but one of the players is saying, "Kanye can't be GG, I was there when MW imported Kanye and he has white socks!"

The Kanye/GG in the pictures definitely doesn't have white socks. Weird story.

This is getting crazier by the post. I would safely say based on pictures that Patrick should at the very least contact Resolution Farm and see the Kanye horse, but for McClain to have another one that doesn't fit the description is even weirder and why isn't that record coming up on the USEF search. I am losing faith in someone I thought to have risen above the family name scandal.... This is all too weird!

[tidy rabbit]

I don't know how GG became Kanye but one of the players is saying, "Kanye can't be GG, I was there when MW imported Kanye and he has white socks!"

Who has white socks? MW or Kanye?

[War Admiral]

Patrick now confirms that "Kanye" is GG. Thank GOD.

[caffeinated]

I need a flowchart.

[LarissaL]

There is a dutch Con Air registered with USEF, but I looked up pictures, because I'm an insane web-stalker, and it's definitely not a horse that could be confused with the other two.

Though perhaps I should webstalk the other three Con Airs and see if any of them match up.

But I'm guessing he came from Europe with that name, and didn't show under it if he showed here... Just a guess.


I cyberstalked the one Gavin Moylan rode/rides and it doesn't appear to be him either.

http://www.gavinshorses.com/photos.html (fourth row, left side - "Gavin on Nic")

[CoolMeadows]

This is getting crazier by the post. I would safely say based on pictures that Patrick should at the very least contact Resolution Farm and see the Kanye horse, but for McClain to have another one that doesn't fit the description is even weirder and why isn't that record coming up on the USEF search. I am losing faith in someone I thought to have risen above the family name scandal.... This is all too weird!

Yeah, I've always said you can't judge a son by his father, I truly hope that is still the case! And, this was just posted on HSS:


Hey everyone...thanks so so so much! I received 2 calls this morning and an email link to the photo's from gulf coast...it's defininetly GG!
Spoke to Annabelle @ their barn in New Jersey and the horse is there and the cops are on their way.


Fingers crossed that GG is with his people soon. :)

[CoolMeadows]

Who has white socks? MW or Kanye?

:lol: Who the hell knows at this point!

[LearnToFly]

Okay, so the horse currently being shown as "Kanye" is actually GG. The horse that was being called "Good Guinness" is actually Con Air, according thehorse.com... And someone is saying that the horse they imported as Kanye has socks and a blaze? And we have record of the only bay Con Air listed in the USEF in July 08 with his owner (that's listed on USEF) as a horse with socks and a blaze?

...So where/who is the real Kanye?

[Phaxxton]

Yeah, I've always said you can't judge a son by his father, I truly hope that is still the case! And, this was just posted on HSS:

What is HSS? Can you post a link?



Fingers crossed that GG is with his people soon. :)

AMEN! :yes::yes::yes:

[2bayboys]

So who is this imposter horse Con Air and why isn't somebody missing him?

And if it was just a mistake, why are the police needed?

[trubandloki]

Fingers crossed that GG is with his people soon. :)

Fingers crossed!


I do feel for the kid who is leasing though. They sure are stuck in the middle of a mess.



And if it was just a mistake, why are the police needed?

Not saying anyone did anything here - But frequently it is easier to get your property back with the police present. Sometimes they are nice to have just to make sure everything is documented.

[Peggy]

Okay, so the horse currently being shown as "Kanye" is actually GG. The horse that was being called "Good Guinness" is actually Con Air, according thehorse.com... A horse that has socks and a blaze? And someone is saying that the horse they imported as Kanye has socks and a blaze? And we have record of Con Air in July 08 with his owner (that's listed on USEF) as a horse with socks and a blaze?

...So where is the real Kanye and how the heck does a horse with socks and a blaze pass as GG?
No, there appears to be more than one Con Air--the one posing as GG and the one in the USEF database (and on page 25 of the magazine PDF that someone posted). I think:confused:

Love your sig line, BTW.

[Midge]

As much as it is SO tempting to believe, I just cannot imagine a well known rider with a permenent cloud over his head thinking he can do a bait and switch on a relatively well known GP horse with an unusual jumping style.

The question is what would be the benefit? The horse world is so small. I could see it happening if they sold the horse for all the money to, say, Australia, but how would you explain an extremely high dollar horse with no mileage? The horse was 'leased' right here in the US of A and shown on a winter circuit. The risk/reward ratio is WAY off.

Barney might have just done it for laughs- to see if he could get away with it, but I don't think he would have put it in McClain's name.

A whole lot of horses still get sold through Barney. Something like this would jeopardize a whole lot of business.

[vxf111]

I am so glad GG is going to be returned. I have dealt with the folks at Resolution before and they seemed VERY honest and unlikely to intentionally misrepresent a horse. I am sure they are embarassed and upset that this happened.

Trying to get this straight... correct me if I am wrong...

The horse at resolution IS GG (was showing as Kanye, brown with a faded/roan star and front teeth).

The horse with Frank Madden IS a horse named "Con Air" (was showing as GG, brown with solid star and missing teeth)

We think Mclain imported a horse named Kanye and that Kanye had white markings.

We have elimited the possibility of the one bay gelding listed with USEF as "Con Air" from being the one Frank's got, because the one listed with USEF has white markings. So the horse Frank has isn't USEF registered or at least not under the name "Con Air."

[caffeinated]

Okay, so the horse currently being shown as "Kanye" is actually GG. The horse that was being called "Good Guinness" is actually Con Air, according thehorse.com... And someone is saying that the horse they imported as Kanye has socks and a blaze? And we have record of the only bay Con Air listed in the USEF in July 08 with his owner (that's listed on USEF) as a horse with socks and a blaze?

...So where is the real Kanye and how the heck does a horse with socks and a blaze pass as GG?

ok, crazy horse-switcharoo-scandal-scorecard:


Apparently "Kanye" is actually Good Guinness.

Both Good Guinness, and his imposter, who is registered as "Con Air" somewhere (probably in Europe) are plain bays with teeny white stars.

The Con Air registered with USEF, with the most recent show record, has a blaze and socks and is not related to this at all :)

Someone somewhere said the horse showing as "Kanye" has white socks, but that's clearly false as there are about a gazillion pictures out there of the horse, and he has none.

[Marli]

I've been lurking along reading all of this. Forgive me if this sound ignorant, I'm not familiar with these higher caliber horses (TB's my specialty), but aren't any of these horses microchipped/branded/tattooed?

Seems that if any of them had some kind of true identifications on them (by any method) it sure would make it simpler to decipher the horses. Anyone know?

[LearnToFly]

I am so glad GG is going to be returned. I have dealt with the folks at Resolution before and they seemed VERY honest and unlikely to intentionally misrepresent a horse. I am sure they are embarassed and upset that this happened.

Trying to get this straight... correct me if I am wrong...

The horse at resolution IS GG (was showing as Kanye, brown with a faded/roan star and front teeth).

The horse with Frank Madden IS a horse named "Con Air" (was showing as GG, brown with solid star and missing teeth)

We think Mclain imported a horse named Kanye and that Kanye had white markings.

We have elimited the possibility of the one bay gelding listed with USEF as "Con Air" from being the one Frank's got, because the one listed with USEF has white markings. So the horse Frank has isn't USEF registered or at least not under the name "Con Air."

And I'm wondering if another switch happened and the horse that was imported as Kanye is now "Con Air" and that the horse that has been "identified" as Con Air is maybe Kanye?

[Wanderluster]

This whole series of extraordinary events sure makes a good case for permanent ID'ING for all show horses such as lip tatooing, or micro chip.

[Phaxxton]

I've been lurking along reading all of this. Forgive me if this sound ignorant, I'm not familiar with these higher caliber horses (TB's my specialty), but aren't any of these horses microchipped/branded/tattooed?

Seems that if any of them had some kind of true identifications on them (by any method) it sure would make it simpler to decipher the horses. Anyone know?

Con Air was microchipped... that is how he was officially identified as Con Air and NOT Good Gruinness (despite living and showing as GG for 6 months).

Not sure if the real GG (aka "Kanye") is microchipped -- but microchipping would only confirm that he is GG. It wouldn't have necessarily helped locate him in this situation.

[joiedevie99]

Posted by Kristin on HSS:

"all is well that ends well...it is him, he is safe. He has been leased for a year started in Sept. Earl made a HUGE MISTAKE he is devestated and Barney is one pissed of short stocky man....What happened is Earl unloaded at Barney's and took the wrong horse to Franks. Barney's group was expecting a black horse in on trade , and they assumed it was Guinness, and went from there. It honestly appears, no deliberate mistake was made. ******* happens and it sure did. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE FOR HELPING US, tomorrow is Patricks birthday, and * Guinness is the best gift in the World. I have spoken to Earl, who is devestated and crying and feels horrible. I have never heard him like this, it was HIS MISTAKE, no one elses......"

[LearnToFly]

Con Air... oh my what a fitting name!

I don't know how GG became Kanye but one of the players is saying, "Kanye can't be GG, I was there when MW imported Kanye and he has white socks!"

The Kanye/GG in the pictures definitely doesn't have white socks. Weird story.

This is what has me confused. How did the Kanye that was imported with white socks turn into the GG Kanye unless there was some crazy extra switching?

[Long Spot]

I think you may just see a rash of micro-chipping and personal branding starting.

[CoolMeadows]

Posted by Kristin on HSS:

"all is well that ends well...it is him, he is safe. He has been leased for a year started in Sept. Earl made a HUGE MISTAKE he is devestated and Barney is one pissed of short stocky man....What happened is Earl unloaded at Barney's and took the wrong horse to Franks. Barney's group was expecting a black horse in on trade , and they assumed it was Guinness, and went from there. It honestly appears, no deliberate mistake was made. ******* happens and it sure did. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE FOR HELPING US, tomorrow is Patricks birthday, and * Guinness is the best gift in the World. I have spoken to Earl, who is devestated and crying and feels horrible. I have never heard him like this, it was HIS MISTAKE, no one elses......"

Wonderful news! Still a weird story, but wonderful news!

[Phaxxton]

This is what has me confused. How did the Kanye that was imported with white socks turn into the GG Kanye unless there was some crazy extra switching?

I have a feeling perhaps the info re: MW importing a Kanye may be misinformation...

[LetsChat]

Posted by Kristin on HSS:

"all is well that ends well...it is him, he is safe. He has been leased for a year started in Sept. Earl made a HUGE MISTAKE he is devestated and Barney is one pissed of short stocky man....What happened is Earl unloaded at Barney's and took the wrong horse to Franks. Barney's group was expecting a black horse in on trade , and they assumed it was Guinness, and went from there. It honestly appears, no deliberate mistake was made. ******* happens and it sure did. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE FOR HELPING US, tomorrow is Patricks birthday, and * Guinness is the best gift in the World. I have spoken to Earl, who is devestated and crying and feels horrible. I have never heard him like this, it was HIS MISTAKE, no one elses......"

This is the best thing ever..... I am so happy all was sorted out!!!!

[2bayboys]

Something still isn't adding up with the explanation written on HSS.

It says that it was the shipper's mistake, that the Wards were expecting a black horse in trade, and ended up with the real Guiness. Who they then named Kanye and leased to JR rider.

The imposter horse Con Air goes to Frank Madden's posing as Guiness. Nobody notices, horse is shown under the name Guiness in Children's Jumpers.

OK, but where was the horse Con Air *supposed* to end up? Was he the horse the Wards were expecting as a trade? A children's jumper? Who suddenly sprouted wings, changed names, and got leased for mucho bucks to a JR to ride?

Is that plausible?

[vxf111]

Could it be that there are really only two horses involved in the switch, plus a third totally unrelated.

Hypothetically speaking, say Owner has two horses: Kanye, a bay with lots of white; and Con Air, a bay with a star. Kanye is great, has a good record. Con Air is a dud. Owner wants to lease/get rid of Con Air-- but who will pay for a dud? If Owner tried to sell Lessee on Con Air, Lessee wouldn't want him-- Con Air has no record.

Instead, Owner talkes up Kanye, who has a decent record. Lessee goes online, see that yes-- Owner has a horse named Kanye with a record. USEF horse results don't show the horse markings, so there's no way Lessee would guess that Kanye has white markings. Lessee agrees to lease "Kanye." Owner sends along dud Con Air, who he knows can be switched for GG (all the while, keeping the real Kanye at home and out of the deal).

GG arrives at Lessee's under the name Kanye. He's great, of course, because GG is a grand prix horse. Meanwhile, Owner has gotten rid of the dud (went to the person who was supposed to get GG) and still has his nice Kanye horse, whose name can just be changed. Owner has gone from having one good horse and a dud to two good horses.

Not saying that's what's happened, but isn't that a possibility?

[Phaxxton]

I think you may just see a rash of micro-chipping and personal branding starting.

How would a microchip have helped locate the real GG any faster? Do you anticipate trainers scanning microchips when horses arrive at their facility?

ETA -- I know it would help positively identify the horses... but I'm not sure it would have helped FIND GG any faster in this situation.

Also, I assume GG was microchipped... otherwise, how did they get a positive ID so fast today?

[CoolMeadows]

I have a feeling perhaps the info re: MW importing a Kanye may be misinformation...

I think you may be right. It was a strange bit of info but came straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. ;)

Happy early birthday to Patrick!