Stallion approval of the future - discussion with out fights, please.... [Archive]

STF

Mar. 9, 2009, 10:32 PM

With some registries recognizing the 30DT and some not, what do you feel stallion owners are going to do?
Edgar made a post on the 30DT thread that go me thinking as he said “giving more stallion owners options”, but are options fair? I mean does that make fair playing ground for stallion quality.
What the Oldenburg may approve as full stallion quality may not be what the Hanoverian will?
I think the 30DT is great and I think SilverCreek looking into the 70DT, etc is even better to put us on level playing ground with the Germans. I also agree with the 10Day Test mirrored after my fellow Swedish counterparts, which has proven itself very successful and worthy for a very long time.
I just see this big gap in the term “approval” because what one registry will consider or deemed worthy to have testicles, another may not.
Is the overall goal to have a testing that ALL registries will accept, eventually……. (long term goal)…… universal recognition?!?!
I was talking with a registry representative today which I will not name out of respect, but they explained that there were a few stallion in the 70DT who, even with good scores they would not accept for various reasons.
I know its all a work in progress, but I’m just wondering everyone else’s educated thoughts on this?! Mostly for those who have a young stallion prospect or an upcoming “maybe” out there, what are your thoughts?
Last, kudos to those trying to get a program started in the states, it’s really needed in the long run.

showjumpers66

Mar. 10, 2009, 01:30 AM

We should have answers to many of your questions this week.

Tiki

Mar. 10, 2009, 09:44 AM

There is also the issue of no matter how well they do at a stallion performance test or in the show ring at PSG, that some of the registries are looking for a specific type. In the past, stallions fully approved in one registry in Europe were not accepted as approved by some others because of this difference in type and breeding goals. Yes, many stallions are approved and bred across registries. Also, with the EU requirements that stallions approved in one registry must be approved in all enters the picture, even though some registries seem to be able to find a way to filter out some stallions.

I would like to see the performance requirements standardized, but often a registry does at least want a look-see at a stallion before they make their final decision. That's OK too.

tri

Mar. 10, 2009, 10:29 AM

Is the overall goal to have a testing that ALL registries will accept, eventually……. (long term goal)…… universal recognition?!?!

IMO, the goal should be to have a testing that promotes quality but allows the process to be cost effective within the industry.

As you said, the Swedish have a 10 day test that is not accepted in Germany but Swedish warmblood horses have universal recognition.

Different studbooks have created different systems that work for their membership base. Tying ourselves to what another studbook requires makes it difficult to create the best system we can create here, and if you add the criteria of making it acceptable to ALL the euro studbooks just becuase Americans have split themselves up among all those studbooks, well, that is a big mountain to try and climb and not necessary.

If there was a good test, professionally run, economical to the stallion owners and the stallions from the test go on to solid sport careers and good breeding stats, then stallion owners will flock to it - and to the registries that accept it, leaving the registries that don't, without a market here.

andy.smaga

Mar. 10, 2009, 12:13 PM

I'm talking only from the jumper's point of view.

Each registry has it's own policy to approve a stallion, that's OK.
The SF for example has no 10, 30, 70 or 100 DT and is still considered as one of the best SB for jumpers.

I think that a stallion need to prove himself in the ring, doing high level Grand Prix. Only then he deserve the right to breed, then breeders will decide, looking at the quality of the offspring if he deserve to continue to be a breeding stallion.

Whatever the system to approve a stallion the final decision belongs to the quality of the offspring, I don't know a serious breeder that will test an unproven stallion on his best mares, (except when it's his own stallion:))

So to approve a young and unproven stallion it's not an important issue (he will not ruin the best mare lines), as long as the breeders are educated (they will test him in small numbers with second order mares).

The only exception comes from very effective marketing, for example, the thousand plus mares presented to Diarado.

TKR

Mar. 10, 2009, 12:20 PM

I really don't think you will see a "universal" approval. You have to remember that each registry has an "ideal" that it tweaks at inspections from year to year and because they all have different (to some degrees) "ideals" or goals, that is exactly why there are different registries. I think each registry will continue to evaluate an individual stallion by their own standards and needs for achieving those goals.
PennyG

Tiki

Mar. 10, 2009, 03:26 PM

I think that a stallion need to prove himself in the ring, doing high level Grand Prix. Only then he deserve the right to breed, then breeders will decide, looking at the quality of the offspring if he deserve to continue to be a breeding stallion. So, Andy, then you basically propose that no stallion should be allowed to breed until he is about 10 years old? or at least 8???

tri

Mar. 10, 2009, 04:01 PM

Sebastian

Mar. 10, 2009, 05:18 PM

I didn't get that at all from Andy. What I think he is saying is that whether or not a stallion gets some kind of "approval" as a young horse is irrevelent because the proof is in the pudding.

If a stallion is approved and he can't perform and his foals prove not to perform, the "approval" is irrevelent.

If the stallion is NOT approved and he DOES perform and his offspring perform, then NOT being approved is irrevelent.

It is a great point that the Selle Francias do NOT have stallion testing and are considered some of the best in show jumping -which is what I breed for. But they do have, what is it called? Fountainblue?

From the perspective of choosing a stallion for my mare, tri is RIGHT ON!

Seb :)

andy.smaga

Mar. 10, 2009, 05:46 PM

Tri translated my message, in a clear way. Sorry for not being good in conveying my ideas in English.

And yes, we have Fontainebleau, and that is the finals of the young jumpers (4, 5, 6 and 7 y/o), at this occasion stallions can be presented for approval.
Until very recently, only the performance was used to get approval, now they examine the stallion, because they want to improve the "look" of the SF (the amateurs, being 90% of the buyers, are sensitive to a lovely head and a "sexy" look)

We all know that the "cute" horse has no advantage in the jumper ring versus a "normal" looking one.
Because I'm looking at horses having the potential for Grand Prix, I don't care about the looks...

At the end of the day it's the breeder who decide what stallion is going to have his mares.

Fortunately, there are so many different goals breeders want to achieve, that many very different stallions will be successful at stud.
And that is good. We need a large gene pool.

STF

Mar. 10, 2009, 09:51 PM

And see we have again, another breed that is still (and has been for a VERY long time at the top of the game)........ being the Selle Francias breed, mostly in Jumping. Yet some would consider their approval process inadaquate (sp?).......
I have been told many many times that the 10 Day Swedish system is not a way to do this either, but Flyinge has proven its ability to produce top standing horses in the world with their programs.

SilverCreek

Mar. 11, 2009, 03:07 PM

Stallion licensing is a tricky situation. With all of the breed associations in recent years having different requirements and procedures, it can be very confusing for both breeders and stallion owners. We have officially made a press release on another thread about the formation of the new North American Sport Horse Federation. This Federation is designed to support the North American registries and provide an educational portal for the breeders. We hope to create an avenue for the registries to receive the testing and performance requirements they desire. We do not expect all the registries to come under one "umbrella" of requirements, but will provide the 30/70 day test format for all those that desire to accept it. (Future press releases will announce which registries will do so.) If the registries accept the testing, this does not mean that they are specifically a "proponent" of European testing per say, nor will it signify that they are responsible or report to a European counterpart. They will be doing so to make it easier for stallion owners to follow a testing/performance route that will be accepted by numerous organizations, which will hopefully expand the support for ALL the registries. When there gets to be so many requirements for each individual registry, it can be daunting for the stallion owner and they may begin to be more selective in the registries they will bring the stallions to than they would be if the process was more universal.

Please let me emphasize that the new Federation will support ALL the North American registries - even if they do not want to accept the testing format. ISR/OLDNA is conducting their own 10 Day test and we support them whole heartedly in their endeavor. The Federation will work very hard to provide education about each testing format and their requirements and purpose. Also, it will be up to each individual association to provide their own performance requirements, pedigree requirements, and conformation/movement requirements. Each of the registries involved with this new Federation have been very positive, encouraging, and forward-thinking with the suggestions that have been made. Even though each registry will always be its own separate entity when it comes to some of the requirements, they are working very hard to be as "universal" as possible. What a great time for American breeders!!! Below is a copy of the official press release:

"March 6th and 7th marked the final days of the 30-Day Stallion Testing hosted by Silver Creek Farms. Located in Broken Arrow, OK, Silver Creek Farms recognized the need for a universal stallion-licensing format comparable to the 30/70-Day tests held in Germany and accepted by the FN. Silver Creek Farms is establishing a program that will be accepted and embraced by most, if not all of the sport horse registries currently operating in North America. To that end, a meeting took place on March 5, 2009, in which the majority of the North American sport horse registries participated. The American Hanoverian Society, American Holsteiner Horse Association, American Trakhener Association, Belgian Warmblood Breeding Association, Canadian Sport Horse Association, International Sporthorse Registry / Oldenburg North America, KWPN NA, Oldenburg Horse Breeders’ Society, Rheinland Pfalz-Saar International, and Swedish Warmblood Association of North America were all represented at the meeting. In an effort to create a dynamic, progressive, and cohesive performance test, input was requested from all of the registries in attendance. The meeting was extremely productive and the collective brainstorming that occurred from some of the top representatives of sport horse breeding in North America was energizing and refreshing.
“Our hope,” stated Summer Stoffel, president of Silver Creek Farms, “is to create a unified testing for all sport horse registries. The testings at Silver Creek Farms are conducted in accordance to the rules and regulations of the FN (German Equestrian Federation) and the BMELV (German Federal Ministry).” Barbara Sikkink, manager of Silver Creek Farms, went on to state, “We are trying to create a testing location that is central in North America, and that is not owned, operated, or financed by any registry entity.” The goal is to establish a performance test that will be recognized both in North America and allow reciprocity with the European registries.
There have been two previous 30-Day tests held at Silver Creek Farms with the third completed this past weekend. The first 70-Day test at Silver Creek will be held this fall. There has been a real need to launch an alternative performance test that would replace the longer 100-Day format. Previous 100-Day tests have put North American breeders on par with Europe and have moved North American breeding programs forward. With the changes made to the test in Europe, and concerns about long-term impact and injuries on young stallions, an implementation of the 30/70- Day test program will address those issues.
It was the unanimous decision of the representatives present that there was a need for the creation of the new North American Sport Horse Federation (NASHF). This new Federation will act as a unified voice for sport horse breeders and registries in North America. Barbara and Summer will coordinate the Federation’s efforts internally and with national organizations such as the USDF and USEF. Further plans include quarterly news bulletins and an up-to-date website to help breeders keep abreast of all new developments and offer educational tools. There will also be a list of associations who will be accepting the testing format posted on the new NASHF website. Stay tuned for more information!"

Tasker

Mar. 11, 2009, 03:15 PM

In the future, I will probably continue to pick my stallions (either owning or breeding) by their performance & that of their offspring as I am breeding another generation to compete PSG and higher. Since I have to ride these beasties, there is a lot more that goes into my decision than a breeding license, permit or test score at 3 or 4 years of age. All of that stuff is just a stepping stone in the career of a top horse. And as it takes quite a bit of time to develop a Grand Prix horse (dressage), I would rather be a bit behind the curve of having the get of a new stallion and go with a stallion that is a 'been there, done that' type of horse, than having the first foals to hit the ground and be biting my nails for the next 6-8 years wondering 'what if?' with a freshman young stallion. In having BTDT, the older stallion has proven that he is A) trainable B) sound C) mentally competent D) gifted 'enough' to preform at a high level.

Mind you, this is just my opinion. :)

Congratulations on a job well done Silver Creek for running and facilitating the new testing procedure. It is great to have the option here in the US. :)

Vineyard Eventing

Mar. 12, 2009, 01:09 AM

You are amazing and your press release SERIOUSLY is music to my ears! I feel lucky that my first stallion was able to go through the 100-Day Test, which was great and I had no issues with putting him through the test. I now need to get his younger brother approved, and feel at a loss because I don't feel I know which test to put him through. Being registered KWPN, but wanting him approved with other registries as well, it is very confusing and tough to choose what to do with him. Do I send him to the 10 day test and just go ISR/ONA but not be able to go with any other registries? Do I send him through the 21 day KWPN test and not be able to go with any other registries? Do I send him to the 70 day test and HOPE that everyone will accept it? Goodness, I WISH he were a year younger so some of this "stuff" would be more ironed out.

I commend everyone who is trying to put together a system where hopefully most and preferably ALL major registries will accept it.

I also feel that just because we have one test for all registries does not mean that the registries have to "loose" their identity on what should or should not keep their testicles. They still have their inspections and can still decide for themselves what "type" they are looking for and are willing to approve. The test would just show the athleticism, temperament, rideability, etc of the stallions. And each registry could then put their own determination on what a "passing score" would be. So what one registry accepts as a passing score does not neccessarily have to be what all registries accept.

I think this is FABULOUS and I am excited to see where the future takes us. I just hope the future gets here, oh in say... the next month or two. That would be soon enough for me! :lol::lol::lol:

tri

Mar. 12, 2009, 11:27 AM

Is there a timeline on when a decision will be made and U.S. breeders have that list of registries? I am sure there are more stallion owners out there in addition to Vineyard who are trying to make their own decisions on which path to take.

I do believe that it will be the registries that make a clear path that meets the criteria of both quality & cost effectiveness that will have the majority of stallion owners interested in them.

But having to do a 30 day and a 70 day, the costs still do add up. It doesn't sound like it is as expensive as the 100 day. Does anyone know what the cost for the ISR's 10 day test will be?

not again

Mar. 12, 2009, 12:27 PM

Financially it is still a very large amount of money.

Edgar

Mar. 12, 2009, 12:34 PM

Vineyard, I think it seems smarter to get him licensed first with the KWPN before you invest in a test just focused on that registry. They licensed 2 or 3 stallions in this country in 30 years so good luck, I probably would not go there. The same thing goes for the ISR, why limit yourself, they will accept a 70 day test, it would be silly if they did not and their own 10 day test does not grant lifetime approval anyway. Just doing the performance test does not get a stallion licensed with any registry and although it is possible to do the performance test first it is so to say putting the cart before the horse.

Tri, doing both the 30 and 70 day test is more expensive than the 100 day test was. Just the 70 day test may be slightly less. The 30 day test is less but then you have to spend a whole lot more than the 70 day test to get a performance record deemed sufficient for lifetime approval by your chosen registries. I am sure Silvercreek is doing its best to keep tests affortable but these tests do cost a lot of time and money to manage and hire the kind and knowledgable people for a short time to do the test at a level that is acceptable at an acceptable facility. Standing an approved stallion is not going to be cheap anytime soon but being able to do so with a credible record in the US is worth a lot in the end. The registries that do not put on or accept a credible test in the US will likely lose stallions and members to the ones that do.

SilverCreek

Mar. 12, 2009, 03:04 PM

Thanks for the clarification and support Edgar. There will be so many of your questions answered in our next press release as to costs, decisions, registries accepting the test, what those who won't are trying to do. But, I can tell you that it will be very exciting. The testing format is designed to provide choices. Stallion owners can take their stallions to the 30 day test (which is ideal for those stallions that will be campaigning as sport horses anyway). They will be out of their training program for the shortest period of time, it costs less, and they will be showing anyway. The 30 day test is accompanied by performance results. (Announcements as to what is required from each registry will come from the registries, but the Federation's new website will also have links to the information.) However, if the stallion is unable to meet the performance requirements (he is sick, lame, or other reasons) then he can come back and do the 70-day test for final licensing. That would be the only time when both of the tests would be recommended. Otherwise, it would be sensible to just do the 70-day test. The only time when the stallion would attend both tests would be when the performance couldn't be met. There is so much information getting sorted out between the registries right now. We will make this the easiest and best transition for the stallion owners so they will not feel "surprised". Please be patient with us. This is quite a huge undertaking, but we are working fervently to sort it out. Dates for the 70-day test and costs should be announced within the next month. We are working the date out with the registries so that the majority should be able to send judges from their registry to make the day after the stallion test a final licensing site for multiple associations. :) Exciting stuff! Please be patient with us! We are working as fast as possible!

Tiki

Mar. 12, 2009, 04:10 PM

I would think that the one caveat for doing ONLY the 70 Day Test is that the stallion will need to be a heck of a lot better prepared for the 70 days than some stallions in the past have been going into the 100 Day Test. There will just not be time to 'train' the stallion and get him fit. He'd better be 'there' before he arrives.

tri

Mar. 12, 2009, 05:38 PM

Edgar, I agree with everything you posted. I thought the numbers posted on the other thread regarding the pricing for the 30/70 route added up to less than the number bandied about for the previous 100 day testings.

It will be nice to have some transparency - hopefully? - on the fees involved so there isn't the confusion.

But, having a cost effective way to stand stallions, breed mares, market, track, etc., should be a top goal of all the registries that operate in the U.S. "if" those registries are truly interested in helping build the industry here with an eye to be competitive internationally.

horsechick

Mar. 12, 2009, 07:01 PM

This timing is great for stallion owners like myself....I bought a young stallion named Amazing from Silver Creek last year, and have been struggling to figure out the most cost effective way for a "one woman show" like myself to try and get him approved. It is a daunting thought to think of spending so much money for the *possibility* of having him approved with one registry and then having to do it again for approval with a different one. I am very excited at the prospect of having a test that may be accepted by more than one registry, and it hopefully will mean being able to offer him to a broader range of mare owners.

Big thanks to Summer and Barbara for leading the way in this (and of course for selling me Mr. Fancypants as he is affectionately known :lol:)

PineTreeFarm

Mar. 12, 2009, 07:59 PM

It's great that there will at least be some communication between the WB registries and big thanks to SilverCreek for helping bring this about.

But if the new Federation is to represent sport horse breeders why aren't representatives from the IHF, IJF, and more importantly from the new Hunter Breeding Futurity involved. Especially as the new Futurity program is being run by the USHJA. And the biggest market in the US is Hunters after all.

IJF horses have done well and represent some of the most successful US jumper breeders. Just seems like you'd want to get some of those folks on board.

SilverCreek

Mar. 12, 2009, 08:05 PM

That's a great suggestion. Since this Federation is in the early stages, and there are so many organizations, it is taking some time to get feedback from all and to make sure all bases are covered. Thank you for the suggestion. After all, we are an inclusive organization, not an exclusive one. However, that doesn't mean that all registries will be on board. We have invited the AWR, but they respectfully declined. We will have an official list of all participating organizations shortly. The press release just listed the ones that were crucial in the launch of the new Federation. Barbara and I are very honored to be able to serve as a "spokesman" of sorts on behalf of the breeders and stallion owners to all the registries. So keep the feedback coming! We won't be able to make everyone happy unfortunately, but we'll sure try! :)

SilverCreek

Mar. 12, 2009, 08:07 PM

risingstarfarm

Mar. 12, 2009, 08:15 PM

Actually, IJF is already involved. Cheryll Frank is involved with the new Federation in the capacity of BWP registrar - she can also represent the IJF/Young Jumper program.

STF

Mar. 12, 2009, 08:31 PM

Let me also stress that there is absolutely no favoritism in the Federation. We welcome the registries coming on board, and look at all the organizations as fundamental to the foundation of this Federation.

Kuddos to what your doing Summer! Huge step and lots of work, Im sure. Now question, you mentioned that reps of the ATA and SWANA were there? They have always had their own set of standard approvals for stallions (did not recongize the past testings given by others), is that going to change in the states now, or are they thinking about it?

I know it will go back to a lot of the requirements per registry, as there are a few horses I noticed in the past that did not fulfill the pedigree requirements for those of like the AHA or GOV due to questionable dam lines or non status dam lines (IE - GOV requires 3 generations of approved stallions in the mare line, etc). So I guess in 3 part, we have registry requirement, testings and the preformance quota per age level?

From talking to many others, it seems even WITH the testings people are going to breed based on superior preformance (example - Popeye K) and not based on test scores in total.

Again Kuddos to SilverCreek for taking it on.
:yes:

PineTreeFarm

Mar. 12, 2009, 08:47 PM

Actually, IJF is already involved. Cheryll Frank is involved with the new Federation in the capacity of BWP registrar - she can also represent the IJF/Young Jumper program.

No need to try and put a spin on it.
While Cheryll Frank is involved, she is not involved as a rep of IJF. It's quite likely that she could be the rep for IJF but we don't really know that at present.

I simply wanted to ask about the other groups, that's all. SilverCreek answered my question and I appreciate her position that you can't make everybody happy. And more importantly looks like there are some open minded individuals involved.

IJF brings an established program, classes recognized by USEF and great communications to the table. The new Futurity will likely provide the same type of exposure, maybe more as the National Federation is involved. And IHF brings a group of Hunter breeders with lots of experience. Plus all three bring $$$$ to owners and breeders.

jdeboer01

Mar. 12, 2009, 08:54 PM

This is very, very cool! What an exciting time for American breeders!

Silvercreek, does the Federation think that, eventually, there can be multiple 30/70 day tests in different regions? Like an East Coast, West Coast kind of thing in addition to Oklahoma? The sheer size of the U.S. is quite a hurdle!

J

SilverCreek

Mar. 12, 2009, 09:01 PM

Ronda, thank you for your help. Let me say that Ronda has been one of our top advocates through this whole period. From the Federation's standpoint, who will represent the associations is up to each individual association. And, the positions are not limited. If 5 different people want to be involved from an association, we welcome it. We are really try to create a collective atmosphere. It is up to the board members to distinguish who they want to have informed. As I mentioned before, we are still working on the collection of all of those who wish to be involved. This thing almost literally came together overnight, and the overwhelming positive response from everyone was tremendous.

When it comes to breeding based on performance, we absolutely endorse and understand that. We always tell breeders that you can't just breed based on test scores. Having the testing format available is just another tool for stallion owners to be able to provide the bloodlines to breeders, and to have an educated opinion from professionals in the field. It is used as an educational tool (and of course to fill licensing requirements). It is not designed to detract from performance at all. Each registry will have their bloodline, conformation, movement, performance, etc., requirements for approval. Their goal is to make it as unified as possible while retaining their individuality. That's what makes the sporthorse industry great. We can have a plethora of wonderful breeds to suit rider's individual needs. More power to you for breeding to stallions that have proven themselves in sport!

SilverCreek

Mar. 12, 2009, 09:09 PM

In regards to multiple tests, we are preparing for it. :) But, the key is to have enough stallions to sustain it. Our facility was chosen for the launch because, believe it or not, it is exactly the same distance from the Canadian border to the Gulf of Mexico and from the West Coast to the East coast. This provides and equal opportunity (from both time and financial perspective) for stallion owners to be able to attend the test. (Not to mention the whole facility is designed for stallions.) The challenge is to have enough stallions to support the test. With all of the costs involved, just to have the test be able to pay the bills, there has to be 8 or more stallions in the 30-Day test. We have personally made up the difference for the last three tests. With the 70-Day test, in order for the index to work properly (and lets face it, its not perfect and that's a whole other thread), there has to be 15 or more stallions. With registries only approving 3-6 stallions a year, it can become difficult to sustain the tests. That is why the support of the stallion owners is so valuable. However, if there is an ample number of stallions attending each test, we will be more than happy to help establish tests in other regions. After all, one of our main goals is to help the stallion owners provide good stallions to the market. This includes making it as economically feasible as possible.

MagicRoseFarm

Mar. 13, 2009, 12:11 AM

Let me also stress that there is absolutely no favoritism in the Federation. We welcome the registries coming on board, and look at all the organizations as fundamental to the foundation of this Federation.
I think it is great that a Federation is being resurrected with new focus. This will bring a new era to the sporthorse industry if its goals can selflessly include the statistical information and marketting unity so badly needed for the majority of those involved in the SH industry in NA. I hope that once the stallion testing issue becomes addressed, the Federation will have the capacity to address other issues pertinent to the majority (ie mare owners, trainers, competitors) vs the minority (stallion owners)

IMHO the Associations that have very little representation in NA will immediately appreciate the additional support system the Federation can offer them. I also think that, once the Federation begins to prove its ability to represent ALL aspects and interests of the American SH industry, more of those Associations that are reluctant to commit immediately will also offer their support.

DownYonder

Mar. 13, 2009, 06:06 AM

We have invited the AWR, but they respectfully declined.

Wow, I wonder why AWR doesn't want to be part of the new Federation. I was hoping ALL the sport horse and warmblood registries operating here would be glad to participate in an umbrella organization that can help lobby our national governing bodies like USEF regarding matters near and dear to sport horse breeders and owners - such as "one horse, one number". It is really a shame that AWR doesn't want to participate.

MagicRoseFarm

Mar. 13, 2009, 11:29 AM

Wow, I wonder why AWR doesn't want to be part of the new Federation. I was hoping ALL the sport horse and warmblood registries operating here would be glad to participate in an umbrella organization that can help lobby our national governing bodies like USEF regarding matters near and dear to sport horse breeders and owners - such as "one horse, one number". It is really a shame that AWR doesn't want to participate.

From my experience the AWR is ahead of their times in some ways (and saw this coming with the stallion testings). I personally appreciate that it is conservative in some ways and does not dive in at every new venue. However ,they are extremely supportive of those programs they DO support.

Since you are totally uninvolved with the AWR, I suspect the fact that YOU bring them up is just a dig, save it. It does not serve the greater good of the efforts of so many, it just stirs manure that inhibits the unification all are working toward.

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 13, 2009, 12:00 PM

Although this may help the registries, it is not what we need to support individual breeders needs. We still need an organization run by an elected board of breeders, etc, and supported by individual memberships. We need an organization to be able to lobby TO <against> the registries to make them more open to breeders needs, not their own agenda.

STF

Mar. 13, 2009, 12:32 PM

dbay55@yahoo.com

Mar. 13, 2009, 12:44 PM

I didn't get that at all from Andy. What I think he is saying is that whether or not a stallion gets some kind of "approval" as a young horse is irrevelent because the proof is in the pudding.

If a stallion is approved and he can't perform and his foals prove not to perform, the "approval" is irrevelent.

If the stallion is NOT approved and he DOES perform and his offspring perform, then NOT being approved is irrevelent.

It is a great point that the Selle Francias do NOT have stallion testing and are considered some of the best in show jumping -which is what I breed for. But they do have, what is it called? Fountainblue?

SF has a "classic cycle" which is young horse competitions everwhere during the year. Finalists qualify to compete at the end of the season at Fountainbleau. The Dutch also have a classic cycle in addition to their inspections. I am not sure how it fits in their systems today, but it was a compulsory series of competitions.

Conscience 101

Mar. 13, 2009, 12:56 PM

No need to try and put a spin on it.

My goodness, that seems unnecessarily harsh for a supposedly friendly discussion forum! :eek:

not again

Mar. 13, 2009, 01:28 PM

STF

Mar. 13, 2009, 01:34 PM

My goodness, that seems unnecessarily harsh for a supposedly friendly discussion forum! :eek:

Please dont come on this with alias and start this crap.
At least she called it as she saw it with her REAL name and was not afraid to stand with her own thoughts and not behind a troll name :rolleyes:. Just because someone said something that you did not agree with, does not make it wrong. :o

DownYonder

Mar. 13, 2009, 01:58 PM

Since you are totally uninvolved with the AWR, I suspect the fact that YOU bring them up is just a dig, save it. It does not serve the greater good of the efforts of so many, it just stirs manure that inhibits the unification all are working toward.

Uh, wrong. Since the new federation is something many breeders have long wanted - an umbrella organization to help educate breeders, bring the registries together to work on issues of importance to breeders, work with the national governing bodies, etc. - I am honestly wondering why AWR does not want to participate. I can't help but think that the federation will be of benefit to ALL sport horse breeders and registries. So how does AWR's non-participation serve "the greater good"? Seems to me that it is the one "inhibiting the unification all are working toward". (And believe me, I have the same questions about any other sporthorse registries that decline to participate in the federation.)

This federation is NEEDED and I have been fairly vocal in lamenting the demise of the FNASHR. I am very glad to see this new federation spring up to take its place and I sincerely hope that ALL the sporthorse registries in N.A. will offer their support to it.

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 13, 2009, 02:20 PM

Uh, wrong. Since the new federation is something many breeders have long wanted .

Nope, what we have wanted is an organization to give US a voice AGAINST the controling organizations and registries. This looks like it will be more of them organizing together to have MORE power to do what THEY want, so LESS power to the breeders.

What we need HAS to be supported by INDIVIDUAL memberships, and ALL decision makers have to be ELECTED by the individuals.

siegi b.

Mar. 13, 2009, 02:27 PM

SilverCreek

Mar. 13, 2009, 02:33 PM

Actually, this new Federation was designed as a way to provide a voice to the registries from the breeders as well as create good communication between the registries. I don't feel that there is a need to lobby "against" the registries. The feedback that we got from all of them is that they want to understand the plight and needs of their breeders and provide good customer service. Barbara and I truly understand the needs of a lot of you being mare and stallion owners ourselves. We both started out as being small time mare owners and grew into owning stallions that need to go through licensings. And if we don't understand, then we are certainly willing to listen and learn. Not only should this Federation stand as a unification of registries, but also of the registries and breeders as well. The main purpose of the Federation is not to promote stallion testings. It is just one of the many tools that the Federation plans to help make available for those that are interested. We fully expect that not all registries, or stallion owners for that matter, will want to take that avenue. But, it is there to be used if desired.

On behalf of the Federation, we do not feel that the decline of AWR is inappropriate. If a registry would like to take some time to observe the Federation and the goals that it stands for, then we completely understand. That is their priority. The registries are really coming into this with an open mind and this Federation will be very successful if the breeders have the same mindset. I know things have not always been easy, but we really are on the forefront of change and streamlining things. We need everyone's help to have positive, forward momentum. Thanks to everyone!!

andy.smaga

Mar. 13, 2009, 02:34 PM

Why do stallions go through testing? Not trying to be rude, but trying to get a historical/ physical/ financial justification for the process. Is it really necessary in 2009 and beyond? Is there $10-$12 thousand dollars of benefit? Is the horse better from the experience? Do we need the statistics in the current sport arena? Do we guarantee better/more competitive foals from the effort? Just a few musings in the era of downsizing and economic reversal. Is there a better way to prove a stallion's merit without breaking the bank?

It is necessary because of some registrie's traditions.

But when you look at today best stallions (proven through their offspring) they are all high performance sport horses.
On the other hand, if you look at all the winners of the different Korungs for the last 20 years, none of them did anything of importance in the show ring (I'm talking jumpers, the only thing I know a little about)
So it doesn't harm to have stallions testing, because at the end, the best ones will be recognized through performance: the only judge of quality.

I want to congratulate the individuals supporting this new federation, because this will allow the breeders voice to be heard and considered.

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 13, 2009, 02:44 PM

I actually sort of agree with "not again" ..... I do think that stallion candidates should be evaluated on pedigree, conformation and basic movement by a judging committee, and that they should also be required to do a short (10 to 30 days) performance test in order to be able to judge the horse's gaits under saddle, his temperament in the stall and under tack. In addition, the horse should pass a radiographic and semen exam. After that there should be compulsory competitions spread out over two years or so, as well as evaluation of the first two crops of foals (with minimum number required).

I think a system like that would allow the stallion owner to spread costs out over a longer period of time in addition to being a lot less expensive to begin with.

I agree. Several registries have a 10 day testing. I think the Trakehners had a single Novice/Training Level Horse Trial requirement. 10 Days will tell the quality and behavior of a horse, but it should not be at the cost of half a 100 Day Testing :no:

If I have a sales horse that I send to a trainer for evaluation and pricing, in a week, they will be able to know about it's talent, temperament, and rideability. How much will I have to pay for that week to 10 days at the trainers?

Stallion Testings are a marketing ploy. What is MOST important is evaluating the offspring, and FEW registries leave a stallion's breeding license to be dependent on the offspring results.

ise@ssl

Mar. 13, 2009, 02:48 PM

I hope the 10 Day test catches on. I feel this test is well suited to those stallion owners who prepare their stallions well and don't want to send them away for long periods of time or may have logistics problems due to the size of our country. I also like that the ISR/OLDNA is also including an additional test for "specialists" - stallions can obviously do all of those if the owner wants that but some are definitely headed into specific careers as far as performance and this additional test on specific disciplines helps provide MORE information and input from guest riders and judges.

Given the economy - I don't see the ability for our market to handle multiples 30 or 70 day tests and the location in Oklahoma is a long haul for some areas of the country.

showjumpers66

Mar. 13, 2009, 02:53 PM

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 13, 2009, 03:02 PM

That is why IMO stallion testing needs to be done by the registries approving a group of training facilities around the country that are already in place. Hilltop, the Hasslers, Bob Orton, Ken Borden, etc. The training director and staff are already in place. A stallion could be sent to an exsiting apprived center for evaluation. Then the final evaluation and guest rider part could be part of the registry tour at certain locations.

showjumpers66

Mar. 13, 2009, 04:06 PM

STF

Mar. 13, 2009, 05:22 PM

Comparing 10 days with a trainer for a sales evaluation with a stallion test is comparing apples to oranges. The expense of keeping a horse in hunter/jumper training and competition (say 2 shows during the month) is in the $4000 to $6000 range per month. With that taken into consideration, the expense of the test is right in the ballpark with the same type of exposure. Also consider that there are expenses related to staffing a test (training director, grooms, riders, judge riders, and judges - salaries, housing, travel expenses, etc.) and hosting the test (facilities, equipment, staffing, management, etc.).

I gota agree with Barbara here.......
Just a two day dressage show last weekend cost me $800+ after all costs. H/J shows can range from $400 to $1000 a day depending on a lot of factors.
I have put the numbers to it a lot of times and the testings is much more economical than preformance if you have someone else riding/training your horses.

I think some of this will be a "go and resolve" as the company is started. You cant expect everything to be prefect in the beginning and it does sound like most of the founding members are very open to discussion on what breeders/trainers/owners are thinking.

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 13, 2009, 05:48 PM

Well, there are certainly pros and cons to that. The pro being that there may be locations closer for the stallions to attend, but that is really the only pro I can see. The cons are -

Consistency in scoring and management is lost with multiple hosts, judge riders, and/or training directors. There would not be an adequate way to compare these stallions.

Like there is not a HUGE discrepency in scores and results from the varioius tests in Germany? People pick and choose their testing places and TD. They also send low score horses to boost their good ones results.

Availability and disruption of training facilities in regards to clinics, clients, and competitions is often difficult to manage especially with stallions. Can the host site commit the resources and put their clients on the back burner for the entire period?

No need. The facilities are already staffed and take in training horses. Stallion owners would just get their name on a list for when A slot is available. Evaluating a stallion for scores for gaits, jump, ridability, temperament does not need to be done with a group. Everyone has always said it is not the order or placement in a Testing that has anything to do with results as a sire, or even performance. Stallion owners are wasting huge amounts of money for a system that has not proven to have any valid results. Germany is looking to change the system to accomodate smaller countries. It is set in stone, or not?

Multiple locations will lower number of stallions attending each test site and none of the tests will achieve minimum numbers to make it financially viable. Silver Creek is committed to ensuring that the test succeeds and we are financially backing it. Who is going to make up the bottom line at all of these tests?

It is not tests. It is an evaluation. The testing can be done in the final 3 days, like it has been. It can be part of the inspection tour at specific locations. I have seen 3 Inspectors at some places on the tours. They are already there. Mare Performance testing does not need to be done for a month, or 70 Days. How much does it cost for a Mare Performance Test? People have to pay for riders, pay to bring in judges, etc How important are the mares in this country?

Reciprocity across different registries (and in Europe) would be lost which adds up to more expense for stallion owners. The sole purpose for following the European standards for testing is to offer a better value for the stallion owners.

Stallion Owners now pay and attend various inspections now. Just make the inspection more comprehensive to include a 3 day performance test. They already do the conformation, free gaits, and free jump.

PineTreeFarm

Mar. 13, 2009, 05:59 PM

I gota agree with Barbara here.......
Just a two day dressage show last weekend cost me $800+ after all costs. H/J shows can range from $400 to $1000 a day depending on a lot of factors.
I have put the numbers to it a lot of times and the testings is much more economical than preformance if you have someone else riding/training your horses.
.

About those costs for H/J shows.
I have a horse in training with a BNT. Total monthly expenses including board, training, shoes is about $1000 a month. If I added in two shows it would be about $1500. I have a horse in another state that is shown by a pro. He doesnt need much in the way of a program but his costs including 2 shows a month had been about $1200.
I believe the costs you are quoting are for AA shows and full care.
In many areas of the US there are quality one day shows. In the NE a good one day show will cost around $130 in entry fees + van + pro ride. Under $300 total.
A multiple day AA show costs about $750 minus any prize money.
Point being that you can make showing cost whatever you want it to.
The Zone divisions make it affordable to gain recognition and year end prizes without going broke. It would be virtually impossible for a one day USEF rated show to cost $1000 a day.

not again

Mar. 13, 2009, 06:08 PM

This is not necessarily my position but one that has been voiced to me so I will share it:
"If I send a young horse out in training and it competes several things are different.
(a) the competition is USEF/USEA/USDF approved and operates under the appropriate rules.
(b) the officials are licensed and trained in their discipline.
(c) there is drug testing.

In addition I can choose my trainer. Also vet and blacksmith, massage therapist, etc. are my choice."

Just a point of discussion regarding the relative costs of showing a young stallion versus sending him to a testing. Not everything is about the actual dollars being spent, but about the choices being made.

Zlotych

Mar. 13, 2009, 06:27 PM

DownYonder

Mar. 13, 2009, 06:45 PM

Nope, what we have wanted is an organization to give US a voice AGAINST the controling organizations and registries. This looks like it will be more of them organizing together to have MORE power to do what THEY want, so LESS power to the breeders.

What we need HAS to be supported by INDIVIDUAL memberships, and ALL decision makers have to be ELECTED by the individuals.

Yes, you have been proposing this for how many years now? And while I do not disagree that an organization of BREEDERS might be helpful, you have apparently done NOTHING to get it organized. So someone else took the bull by the horns and formed an organization of REGISTRIES.

But nothing is stopping you from forming your organization of individual breeders. Go ahead - maybe it can become a member of the new federation, too.

tri

Mar. 13, 2009, 06:54 PM

Andy and I are in agreement, maybe because we both are involved with jumpers and dressage people tend to have different mindsets.

Nope, what we have wanted is an organization to give US a voice AGAINST the controling organizations and registries. This looks like it will be more of them organizing together to have MORE power to do what THEY want, so LESS power to the breeders.

I don't think anyone can blame an organization especially a domestic one for wanting to wait and see if this is what it will be like with more and more control exerted by europe over our industry or if the Federation will evolve into a true voice and proponent for American breeders with aggressive marketing of an American sporthorse product instead of continued marketing of the european product.

It is also refreshing to see other posters, especially Siegi - we are in complete agreement! -, posting on a 10-30 day testing with the young horse compititions, etc. It is very similar to what France has and I posted very very long long ago that a system like what they did in France might work very well here. I was blasted for it back then. It is really nice to see the open mindedness to it now. Long road!

showjumpers66

Mar. 13, 2009, 06:54 PM

PineTreeFarm, I wish we could get off that easily. :yes: The only one day hunter/jumper shows that I know of are schooling shows which are great for amateurs and kids, but just not a viable option for promoting stallions and upper level sales horses or earning recognition as having a top breeding program.

The rated shows are typically 4 to 5 days long and often 2 or more weeks back to back. The jumpers run about $700 (more if there are Grand Prix entries or Classics) a week for entries, stall, office fees, etc. with the hunters running $1000 or more depending on the number of classes. Then there are day fees (covers the cost of the grooms), training fees, braiding, per diem (for grooms and trainers - housing, food), hauling, bedding & hay, etc. Farrier is $200 plus. Board and training around here will run $900 to $1500 per month. It adds up very quickly. Sometimes we get lucky and they pay their entries, but sometime not. We do show horses ourselves, but also have some out with trainers. We are just too busy at home to stay out on the road.

tri

Mar. 13, 2009, 06:55 PM

Downyonder, ugly as usual.

not again

Mar. 13, 2009, 07:01 PM

It would be nice if other stallion owners would step up to the plate and talk about our common needs and the systems from Europe. Unless you have bred and raised a stallion and had it "out there" for mare owners, you could have a flat view of a very round and unusual world. FHC has had many years of experience as a stallion manager/owner as well as seeing the situation for the mare owner's side. I see a lot of merit in her concerns.

Stallion testing is an area for stallion owners, but a gala auction supported by all the European and American registries may appeal to a larger base of horse owners.

showjumpers66

Mar. 13, 2009, 07:33 PM

I agree that there is more than just the stallion testing and we look forward to the feedback that we receive.

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 13, 2009, 08:02 PM

FHC, for someone that stands 2 stallions that have not been through the approval process, you certainly have strong words and opinions about it, especially to folks that have and are putting their $$ where there mouths are.

Actually, I think I DID put my money where my mouth is by deciding to stand non-European licensed stallions. It has been a long road proving my "opinions" but their offspring have stood toe to toe with many European licensed stallion's offspring and have been looked upon very favorably in many disciplines.

The expense of getting an Approved stallion does not pay, and the process puts a huge burdon on stallion owners that keep hoping it will. Stallion Approval is a marketing gimmick. It gets all eyes on the testing. They put on a show to increase interest in their product. It is all about the newest, greatest phenom, then off to the next one. That system is NOT breeding for sport. Maybe we need to find one that IS, but IMO joining the European registries together will not help us to lead.

ljshorses

Mar. 13, 2009, 08:03 PM

I don't stand a stallion but breed mares and always hope to sell foals for profit. The black and white is the foals from tested, approved stallions sell better and for more. That has been my experience for many years so it would be hard to get me to breed to an untested, unapproved stallion unless it was for myself or a custom breeding for a client. What Silvercreek is proposing seems like a great idea for mare owners and therefore I support it wholeheartedly. Maybe if I had a stallion other than my teaser I would feel differently. I just think it's great that someone is trying to get so many organizations together and looking for ways to benefit all. Keeping testing centralized and less expensive and possibly shorter is a great start. No system is perfect from the onset, but this is a great effort that needs support and only constructive helpful criticism. Kudo Silvercreek!!!

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 13, 2009, 08:06 PM

Yes, you have been proposing this for how many years now? And while I do not disagree that an organization of BREEDERS might be helpful, you have apparently done NOTHING to get it organized. So someone else took the bull by the horns and formed an organization of REGISTRIES.

But nothing is stopping you from forming your organization of individual breeders. Go ahead - maybe it can become a member of the new federation, too.

I am simply NOT the person to start this organization. I am a person that does not work within the European system, so anything I start will not be taken seriously by the European breeders. I would be happy to help, but it must come from a group of mainstream European breeders.

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 13, 2009, 08:22 PM

I don't stand a stallion but breed mares and always hope to sell foals for profit. The black and white is the foals from tested, approved stallions sell better and for more.

Foal prices have more to do with how fancy the farm is that is selling them, and my farm is not fancy. 10 years ago, I said I would never breed to a non-European Approved stallion. I said I had to, to sell the foals. I found out that was not true.

showjumpers66

Mar. 13, 2009, 08:48 PM

The Federation's purpose is not to join the European registries together, but rather to join NORTH AMERICAN based associations. For years, we have all been voicing concerns and needs in regards to breeding. We hope that by joining forces, we can help make changes. I understand that you don't believe that this will work, but why not give it a chance?

Maybe we need to find one that IS, but IMO joining the European registries together will not help us to lead.

showjumpers66

Mar. 13, 2009, 08:51 PM

We would welcome your assistance. The Federation is not limited to the mainstream European breeders ... all sporthorse breeders are welcome!

I would be happy to help, but it must come from a group of mainstream European breeders.

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 13, 2009, 08:57 PM

IMO, what we need HAS to be run by an ELECTED board, and supported by INDiVIDUAL memberships. This is not the same thing. It is the opposite.

We would welcome your assistance. !

Great idea! This IS "my input". How can I go about helping the Federation to be run by an Elected board, and funded by individual memberships?

not again

Mar. 13, 2009, 09:20 PM

"The Federation's purpose is not to join the European registries together, but rather to join NORTH AMERICAN based associations."

It seems to be a fundamental problem to be American and European at the same time. It is like dual citizenship? Since foal registrations are credited to European based registries from most of the member registries, how does that benefit North American breeders? It seems it will continue to shrink our votes with the World Breed Federation.

How does complying with German agricultural law benefit American breeders? Do we then get the auction selections and breeder bonuses for prize monies won like German breeders do?

EU law seems very complex. It seems very difficult regarding the many countries trying to maintain traditional registry systems while complying with the overlay of international regulations. How do we overlay our tax code and any aspects of the new stimulus package regarding horse breeding with the EU/German system being put in to place here?

Lastly: If there is a income shortfall on stallion testing, does the new Federation pick up the financial liability? How about the liability of care, custody and control?

showjumpers66

Mar. 13, 2009, 09:21 PM

Many regional groups have tried this and have failed due to a lack of membership support. We really need the support of the associations. My suggestion to you is to speak with the board of directors of your registry about attending the next meeting as their representative.

showjumpers66

Mar. 13, 2009, 09:30 PM

How does complying with German agricultural law benefit American breeders?

I can answer this based on first hand experience. When we tried to activate Cathalido with CWHBA's they did not accept his ISR 30-day Short Test results. Our options at that point were to send him to the 100-day test or he needed Grand Prix results. We exported Cathalido to Germany for competition. He is now in Southern Germany and, again, his test results are not acceptable. With the Euro high, we have had interest in Cathalido offspring in Europe, but have lost sales since his daughters and sons would not be eligible for approval due to his testing status. We are not the only breeders who have experienced this problem. We hear feedback from the breeders who are pushing for these changes.

showjumpers66

Mar. 13, 2009, 09:33 PM

Silver Creek Farms assumes the financial liability for the testing as a private testing station.

Lastly: If there is a income shortfall on stallion testing, does the new Federation pick up the financial liability? How about the liability of care, custody and control?

ljshorses

Mar. 13, 2009, 11:07 PM

Foal prices have more to do with how fancy the farm is that is selling them, and my farm is not fancy. 10 years ago, I said I would never breed to a non-European Approved stallion. I said I had to, to sell the foals. I found out that was not true.

My farm is not fancy but yet I have seen over and over again that this does indeed make a difference. Maybe it is the geographic area, I don't know in your case, but I can assure you it has made a huge difference here. I can show you the results over the years. I have kept pretty good records. The results speak for themselves.

MagicRoseFarm

Mar. 14, 2009, 12:44 AM

My personal hope that this Federation will be managed, NOT by the Registries, but by individuals from all aspects of our industry, and selflessly SUPPORTED and PROMOTED by all the American based Associations (and respected and integrated with the USDF, USEF, USEA,USHJA etc ) However, this direction might cause direct conflicts of interest between some associations and their Euro sisters. Hindsight is 20/20 and it really didn't function the best last time around although I recognize much has evolved since then.

Re the sidenotes on saleability.. In the 60-70 foals we bred, I have found that the better the horse the better the price, papers or not, no matter what association, especially when dealing with educated buyers. That might be different for someone selling prospective breeding stock affiliated with a specific association, but we have also sold breeding stock to some who were seeking totally different accompanying registration.

DownYonder

Mar. 14, 2009, 07:17 AM

Downyonder, ugly as usual.

Yawn.

DownYonder

Mar. 14, 2009, 07:56 AM

I can answer this based on first hand experience. When we tried to activate Cathalido with CWHBA's they did not accept his ISR 30-day Short Test results. Our options at that point were to send him to the 100-day test or he needed Grand Prix results. We exported Cathalido to Germany for competition. He is now in Southern Germany and, again, his test results are not acceptable. With the Euro high, we have had interest in Cathalido offspring in Europe, but have lost sales since his daughters and sons would not be eligible for approval due to his testing status. We are not the only breeders who have experienced this problem. We hear feedback from the breeders who are pushing for these changes.

Barbara, thank you for this example, as it points out what I have been driving at for so long. If we want our horses to be accepted on a par with the European horses, we HAVE to have a testing/approval system that is recognized by the Euro registries so we can export mares and licensed/tested stallions to Germany, Holland, etc., and know that they will be accepted for breeding there.

Breeders here are producing very good quality horses, and some ARE exporting stock to Europe. But if those horses are stallions that went through an unrecognized testing here, then they CANNOT BREED for the European WB registries. And if they are mares sired by stallions that went through an unrecognized testing here, they CANNOT GO INTO THE MMB of the European WB registries.

We are shooting ourselves in the foot regarding parity with the European registries if we develop a stallion approval system here that is not acceptable to Europe because it would mean that our American/Canadian bred horses could never be used in breeding programs in Germany, Holland, Denmark, etc. While there are about a half dozen of you on this forum that are VERY vocal and VERY adamant about not seeing the need for a testing/approval system accepted in Europe, there are HUNDREDS of breeders belonging to AHS, Oldenburg (GOV), RPSI, etc., that DO see this need. They may not be on this forum, but believe me, they are out there, quietly going about their business of breeding foals that meet the pedigree requirements for breeding status in Germany, Holland, etc.

And that basically, is the crux of this matter, and the reason that Silver Creek has worked so diligently to set up a testing system that will be acceptable in Germany, at least. So I say once again - many kudos to Summer and Barbara for their vision, their commitment, and their leadership.

ise@ssl

Mar. 14, 2009, 08:21 AM

Well I suppose it's nice to think that YET ANOTHER umbrella organization will help pull the breed organizations together but I can honestly say I'd be surprised if it happened. Economically this is a rather tough time to pull another group together. As horse owners we all know the COSTS of belonging to and registering our horses with existing (and requisite) organizations is horrendous. And even worse - I'm never able to see what we really get for all these fees.

Showing costs are off the charts and dropping entries are everywhere.

My biggest concern has always been having ONE DATA BASE for all sport horses and ponies WITH ONE NUMBER for each horse or pony. I'm quite certain I will never live to see it. Even as the discussion here speaks to yet a "new and improved" National Federation - I'm wondering how this new group will get some registries that belonged to the old Federation but NEVER worked to make it successful. PLEASE- don't start some personal character association about individuals - that's where these things always go and it chases more people away than it draws into the discussion.

While Oklahome is equi-distant to the borders - that presumes that breedings stallions are equally dispersed to all the states in the US - that's just not true. And quite honestly having seen a severe tornadoe years ago in Ohio - I'm pretty gunshy about sending one of my horses into areas where they are fairly common. Just me - others can make their decision.

Perhaps now is the time to look at changes and re-organizations - JMHO but financially our industry has not yet been impacted to the extent it will be over the next few years I'm PRAYING people take a serious look at their breeding programs relative to the economy and ask themselves if it's time to cut back and wait for an upturn. The increase in good horses going to slaughter is in the news all the time.

DownYonder

Mar. 14, 2009, 08:25 AM

I am simply NOT the person to start this organization. I am a person that does not work within the European system, so anything I start will not be taken seriously by the European breeders. I would be happy to help, but it must come from a group of mainstream European breeders.

Here is the issue as I see it. An organization of BREEDERS is not going to immediately have the same clout with our NBGs as an organization or REGISTRIES. Many breeders are going to be loathe to join yet another association to pay fees to, esp. one just getting off the ground and that may only attract a small number of breeders in its first few years.

OTOH, an organization of REGISTRIES represents HUNDREDS of breeders. Also, since many of our NBGs are already familiar with the names of these registries, this organization of registries is going to have far more clout with the NBGs than a new association with no name recognition or proven history.

Again, an association for breeders could be a nice idea, but it would take YEARS to build up the membership to numbers large enough to actually have a voice that the NBGs might listen to. The new federation automatically represents a LARGE membership, so its chances are far better of having a quicker impact on our NBGs.

not again

Mar. 14, 2009, 09:15 AM

If having an event horse going in Aiken offers any comparison to a testing, I can accurately say the cost is less and results count more: for year end awards for the USEA and a specific registry. And are transparent. Why not have regional events offer a stallion division or mare division that registries could support and tally the results accordingly? The organizers in eventing are very talented at organizing, and open to ideas to expand their sport. Since everything is already in place, it would just mean a few extra horses for the officials to evaluate.
Just a thought.....

Tiki

Mar. 14, 2009, 09:56 AM

I applaud this effort and sincerely hope it will work. Just think of an example outside the horse world for a minute.

Who has higher clout with Congress???? The CEO of a big corporation or a few people from the neighborhood?

Who has more clout with the big insurance companies???? Large hospital corporations, or the AMA, or a disgruntled patient?

Who has more clout with the USEF???? Well, maybe no one there. :cry::no::confused: :D:lol::winkgrin:;) :mad:

It will indeed give a bigger voice to American breeders to have the registries on our side - IF they are willing to do this - and it sounds like they have a really good start.

To all those who say you don't have to have your stallions and mares inspected, tested and registered - that's the hunter world. Maybe that IS the biggest market in this country, but sorry, it's NOT the only market.

If this country becomes isolationist in it's breeding policies and has breeders inspecting each other's horses (basically what forming some type of breeders group with full control is essentially proposing) we will drop farther and farther behind in International competition. Do you really want to be last at the Olympics? Do you really want to be last at the Pan Am Games. Do you really want to be beat by some of the countries that don't even have horses, but send a couple of riders to some other country to buy and ride a horse and qualify to ride in the Pan Am Games?

Our level of riding and training is still way behind the European countries. Do you seriously want to dumb down the breeding world here that some of us have worked soooooooooooo hard to build up? We're now getting comments from the inspectors that a lot of the horses that we breed are fully competitive with what is being bred in Europe. We can't do that without an outside, independent process.

Why aren't our American bred horses doing better at International level competition? Our riders and trainers. Everyone wants to take short cuts. Do you really want to dumb down the horses enough so that any Tom, Dick or Jane can ride them and no longer being good enough to qualify for International competition? Hunters aren't part of any International Games. I have absolutely nothing against hunters. I just sold one of mine who just went to be a Show Hunter in Georgia, but I, myself, don't do hunters. I am absolutely passionate about dressage - good, classical dressage. I also have a jumper out there that I bred who, I think, is going to be very good.

I also see nothing wrong with breeding pleasure horses for Tom, Dick and Jane to ride and enjoy, but that's not my market. I'm not trying to sell them horses and I don't want them telling me what to breed.

I think this is a super idea. Some of you have been trouncing the North American Sport Horse Federation for a while - and rightly so. It seemed to just kind of die a slow death. If this rejuvenation works, it could provide a strong voice and a super marketing vehicle. They could support the Young Horse Tests more fully. Right now there is the North American Breeder's Futurity at Dressage at Devon with pretty good prize money. I believe that is mostly sponsored now by ISR/OLNA. It was supposed to be the Federation's baby. It could be expanded. There are probably lots of other things that could be done that would never work if proposed by a bunch of individuals. The sport pony network failed because a bunch of individuals all thought their way was better and no one could agree on anything. I just don't see a Breeder's Group working here.

Please, let's give it a chance. Silver Creek has put in a lot of work on this. Several of you said in the past, why let one registry run the 100 Day Test, we could do it anywhere. NO ONE but Silver Creek ever stepped up to the plate!!!!! You go Silver Creek!!!!!!! I'm not sure how I could help, but if you (Barbara or Summer) can think of anything - try me!

PineTreeFarm

Mar. 14, 2009, 10:18 AM

To all those who say you don't have to have your stallions and mares inspected, tested and registered - that's the hunter world. Maybe that IS the biggest market in this country, but sorry, it's NOT the only market.

No, it's not just the Hunter market. It's also the Jumper market. IJF simply requires that the stallion be nominated to the program. No mare inspection. It's working out pretty well for them.

SilverCreek

Mar. 14, 2009, 02:20 PM

Perhaps there has been a misunderstanding...When Barbara and I approached the registries with the idea of a new Federation, we approached it with the idea of an organization that worked with the breeders in mind. Many times Barbara and I have explained concepts from a breeders point of view that perhaps they just hadn't considered. What we would like to have happen here is an association of registries working FOR the breeders. Which is very much the mindset that ALL of the registries displayed at the meeting - EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN. This is NOT a group of European controlled registries seeking to gain control over the American market. Barbara and I are working for the BREEDERS. On the same side, we are working to provide things, such as stallion testing, that will aid the registries to provide services to the stallion owners and breeders more readily, which in turn will make it easier on the BREEDERS to fulfill registry requirements. We have told all the associations that we will work to provide whatever testing they need. We are not biased to a European test necessarily. However, we feel strongly that some of these registries that do have to answer to another organization and do need a certain form of testing should be able to provide it to their breeders. For those organizations that don't, congrats! You live in America. You have the choice to do whatever you deem necessary for your breeders. We are not saying that one organization's sport horses are higher quality than anothers, nor do we advocate that standpoint. We are just trying to create an organization that works to unify American breeding as much as possible. Not unifying in the sense that the associations have the same standards or requirements, unifying in the sense that it is easy for breeders and stallion owners to come to one place to get answers and representation. When all of the associations sat in one room, they all realized they have more in common than not - European and American. We all want to breed great North American sport horses!!! While the 30/70 day format has its advantages in helping NA stallions' licenses be valid internationally, that may not be the interest of some North American stallion owners. That's perfectly understandable. The Federation is not going to be biased.

FHC, if an organization wants to organize a "stallion evaluation" program, there's nothing wrong with that. It will bring its own challenges and scrutiny just like the FN testing has. There just doesn't seem to be a "perfect" way. Everyone has different goals and purposes for their stallion that may or may not require certain formats of testing. The fact that you have made a great business from un-licensed stallions is testament to a great work ethic and intelligence. You have found your market and you're good at it! There is nothing "wrong" with that. We have to remember that America was founded on freedom, why not use that concept to our advantage and create something wonderful? Anything is possible. We don't all have to conform to one model, and that is completely against our new mission for the Federation, which is why the registries were all quick to jump on board.

Let me also say that we designed the Federation to be a free service to the breeders. The registries themselves will donate, but there will be no officers of the Federation from any of the registries. This was also the idea of the registries, believe it or not. They don't want breeders to feel like this is a vehicle for their agendas. Breeders will not have to pay membership, but will be able to take advantage of all the services. The registries are trying to pay back and support something that works for their breeders. They realize that if the breeders feel supported and empowered, then it is better for them. It's a win/win situation. I know it sounds like fairy tales and roses, but it is already formulating wonderful things. In fact, the database was already discussed at length at the meeting with the registries working together on solution. They understand that this would also be a good step towards making strides with USEF, USDF, USEA, and USHJA. So please don't count it out! It just takes a little time.

BTW, I feel like there isn't a more perfect time to form this. With the economy low, breeders need more help than ever. For the first time, the majority of the registries have sat in the same room and come to the same conclusion. When times are rough are when you usually see people coming together to make something greater than the sum of the parts. The atmosphere has changed. It's no longer every man for himself.

ljshorses

Mar. 14, 2009, 03:02 PM

That was very well said SilverCreek and I agree with Tiki in that if there is anything I can do to support your efforts please feel free to ask. This might not be for every breeder and those who have been able to sell foals and young stock sired by untested stallions, well that is great but I think that those are the minority when it comes to sport horses. I have had more and more hunter, jumper and eventer riders these past few years come looking for young stock as the dressage riders have always done. And now that they are also buying young unproven stock they want bloodlines from tested stallions. Things appear to be changing and I the small breeder could use the help of such an organization as this. I love what you are trying to do and would love to be apart of such a ground breaking organization. Again, great job!!!

siegi b.

Mar. 14, 2009, 03:31 PM

Silver Creek - the fact that you had the attention of most warmblood registries in the US speaks volumes! Thank you for making that first step possible and let's hope that this will lead to more meetings between the registries in order to facilitate a unified approach with the USEF, USDF et al in addition to providing a standardized way of testing stallions.

Thank you!

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 14, 2009, 03:35 PM

What are the goals (short and long term) for the new Federation?

How will officers / BOD be chosen?

Will this be "owned" by a single entity, or can power/control be changed due to breeders wants?

To make changes, do breeders need to work "thru" their Registry representative?

Will there be open meetings that all can participate?

Will the new Federation be in a position to pressure the registries for changes that breeders need in the US? or will that jeopardize the funding?

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 14, 2009, 03:40 PM

Silver Creek - the fact that you had the attention of most warmblood registries in the US speaks volumes!

Oh, I don't think there is any doubt about that. I think the registries are pretty worried about breeders creating a Breeders Association that would have power in numbers to force changes if they want to continue to do business here, and take away their absolute control. Something that pacifies the breeders for the time being and stops us from seeking more is a Godsend to them.

siegi b.

Mar. 14, 2009, 03:57 PM

Darlyn - not sure I agree with that..... but I'm going to the annual meeting of my registry next week and intend to find out what's going on. :-)

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 14, 2009, 04:09 PM

The KWPN would be IMO, one not worried about a breeders association. They have become so in tune with their breeders needs, and have been very open to change to meet breeders needs. Their common sense view point about inspections, accepting TBs, Register A & B, the Hunter and Gelderlander books to support those breeders, and with all of their openmindedness, the quality and worldwide respect for Dutch horses has never been stronger. What's not to love? :winkgrin:

Edgar

Mar. 14, 2009, 06:08 PM

Darlyn wrote:
"I think the registries are pretty worried about breeders creating a Breeders Association that would have power in numbers to force changes if they want to continue to do business here, and take away their absolute control."

That seems like a pretty silly statement to me. One which you right away dispell yourself by saying:
"The KWPN would be IMO, one not worried about a breeders association."

First of all there is not one registry in this country with absolute control. Second of all this is a Federation to make things better for breeders and the registries they govern. It is no difference to govern a breeders/membership driven Federation than a registry that is Breeder/membership based. An American organization like the AHS is completely membership driven allready, it is nice to have a connection which helps registries cooperate but no federation is going to tell them how to select horses or run their registry. They will still have their own rules and decisions to make.

I can see why this is less inviting for organizations like for instance the AWR because they are not run by the membership and don't have a membership elected board that runs the registry. They do not have absolute control either nor do they seem to require a stallion test so they can choose not to play. Each organizations has to do what they think is in their members best interest.

Equine Reproduction

Mar. 14, 2009, 11:34 PM

Interesting discussion. I will say that we (Jos and I) probably have a bit more insight into the whole process than most here, literally having put stallions through testings (both the 30 day and the 100 day), competed those same stallions, been on boards for two major warmblood registries, etc. With that said, sitting in on the meeting was interesting and insightful. I applaud Silver Creek for the undertaking of trying to create a cohesive organization that is multi-faceted and most emphatically is NOT about Euro registries, but is attempting to create a voice for sport horse breeders! Definitely not a task for the weak!

The idea that a federation MUST be run by an elected board and be by and for the members, while definitely admirable, just isn't realistic. Having been involved in organizations that are run by essentially volunteers if you have good volunteers and elected individuals, things go wonderfully well. However, all too often it becomes a handful of individuals doing all of the work. They can't WAIT to get out of those positions and when those individuals leave, the organization will often stagnate or crumble. If you want to participate, step up to the plate! Volunteer your time, energy and talent! Sitting back and complaining about perceived issues before they even occur is not productive! I think volumes can be said about just how cooperative everyone was at this initial meeting simply by reading the press release! It was a combined effort and the result was a unified voice expressing all of the registries! The organization can be dynamic and a voice for sport horse breeders, but it takes a unified effort for that to occur. And as is often the case, when there are too many varying opinions on how things "should" be done, it results in chaos. It is in the planning stages and I believe that Summer and Barbara are looking for help and input on how to make it WORK!! Not for premature criticisms about where the problems might be. Think positively and offer positive, constructive, productive ideas!

With regards to competing a stallion at jumper shows, I would have LOVED to have gotten off for under $1,000 a weekend. If you're competing a stallion, which I think this thread is all about, when Mannhattan was competing (and that was over 10 years ago!!), the cost was well over $1,000. The entry fees were the cheap part of the equation! You had stall fees, hauling/gas, braiding, videoing, photography, food, hotels, etc. And remember, for most stallion owners this was NOT about recreation, but a business. Consequently, cutting corners usually isn't an option. Purchasing the professionally done photos is almost essential if you're marketing your stallion. Yeah, I could do my own photos, but just take a peak at some websites and ads that are out there and having professional photos can definitely make the difference. And, if you're planning on putting together a good promotional package, buying that professional video, even if it has only a few stellar moments, can be worth every penny.

I can honestly say that putting a stallion through the stallion testings is CHEAP by comparison to trying to get a stallion licensed through performance. No doubt about it. You can do EVERYTHING right and literally have the stallion become injured just as they're about ready to complete their performance requirements through competition. Mannhattan competed to Level 8 in the jumpers after he completed his 100 Day testing. If I had relied on competition for fulfilling his performance requirement, we would have ended up with an unlicensed stallion as he was injured just before he was ready to step into the Grand Prix Jumper ring <sigh>. I can't even begin to estimate how much we expended in competing him all of those years, but I know it was well above the $15,000 we ultimately spent on the 100 day test (that includes the cost of the testing, cost of transportation, vetting, etc.).

If you don't want to put your stallion through a testing, great! That's definitely a choice! Don't want to compete your stallion to a level that will garner him approval through a warmblood registry? Cool! Again, that's your choice! But there are those of us out there that believe it is important to have some sort of selection process for the stallions we choose to stand and breed to and that's our choice. I personally believe that it does make a difference both in the marketability of the stallion as a sire and in the value of the resulting foals.

Kathy St.Martin
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Lesley Feakins

Mar. 15, 2009, 08:34 AM

Well, I'm just thrilled someone has taken on this montumental task to provide what I hope will be a test, be it 30 days or 70 days that all Registries (if they so wish) can be on board.
In my opinion, this ultimately will benefit the stallion owners, the registries themselves and the breeders. Can't wait to hear the finer details and I think in this new wave of transparency, wouldn't it be helpful to know things like what (if any) meds the stallions are on prior to and during the testing.
Please, while you are considering the finer details, keep in mind the sport ponies...would the 30 day test be adequate for them?

The subject of specialization...the KWPN brought this in recently at its US keurings and it certainly makes me as a breeder stop and think even more about what disclipline I'm aiming for. Don't know how this is working out for the KWPN but I do think it gives the hunter sires more of a fair shake. I'm not a breeder of hunters but there are many many who are and typlically they do not put their stallions and offspring thru the registries and inspections...say as the dressage and jumper breeders do. Not saying the new testing should be departmentalized but perhaps its worth taking a look at in the early stages.

From my prospective, I wouldn't want to see the test being dampened down if we want to continue to be competitive with the euro market, we should continue to raise the bar and if that means being tough on ourselves, so be it.

Kudos to Silver Creek Farm!

EquusMagnificus

Mar. 15, 2009, 08:43 AM

From my prospective, I wouldn't want to see the test being dampened down if we want to continue to be competitive with the euro market, we should continue to raise the bar and if that means being tough on ourselves, so be it.

Yes!

I find it quite interesting, to say the least, to read some comments from people who one one hand, complain that buyers are flocking to Europe to find young horses and yet, seem to be afraid of setting up a gold standard system here.

Why not? Is there some sort of old club afraid of loosing their position? We are doing ourselves a huge disservice by being more lenient. There is a reason why people buy in Europe: trust. They trust the system those horses were put through. Why? Because it is rigorous. Not perfect or error-proof, but quite reliable.

I personally am drawn to one of the major registries BECAUSE they are so STRICT! The feat of having a mare approved with them or a foal complimented with them is doubled because I know they don't give away those scores easily.

I hope this new Federation will work! It looks like a great tool that we would all benefit from.:cool:

Tiki

Mar. 15, 2009, 09:37 AM

Please, while you are considering the finer details, keep in mind the sport ponies...would the 30 day test be adequate for them?

That's an interesting question Lesley. The 30 Day Test in Europe is just a preliminary test, and just about all stallions pass. The only way to get a lifetime approval or licence is to successfully pass the 70 Day Test, the full performance requirements or qualify, with an 8.0 or above for the BuCha.

The 30 Day Sport Pony Test is, I believe) a completely different test. I have no idea what the other registries in this country do when a colt is imported, or one born here and goes for approval. The ISR puts them through the 30 Day Short Test, as you well know, and that test is the last 30 days of training for the "Big Boys" and then they go through the exact same final 3 days of testing, at the same jump heights and the same cross country course and the same dressage test as the "Big Boys".

Who else inspects sport ponies here?
RPSI
GOV
Dutch??
Hano?
Westphalian?

and what do they do after the initial looksee when they look at them for conformation, type and gaits and maybe free jumping? and do they jump the same heights as the horses?

The idea that a federation MUST be run by an elected board and be by and for the members, while definitely admirable, just isn't realistic. Having been involved in organizations that are run by essentially volunteers if you have good volunteers and elected individuals, things go wonderfully well. However, all too often it becomes a handful of individuals doing all of the work. They can't WAIT to get out of those positions and when those individuals leave, the organization will often stagnate or crumble. Yup!!! the committee (horse) you started off to design will turn into chaos (a camel - probably with 3 humps). Remember the old adage "Too many cooks spoil the broth" That statement came about for a reason.

I'm still offering help, and I promise I won't bring any quacky opiniions with me or insist I know a better way to do it and go off on my own.

ise@ssl

Mar. 15, 2009, 09:41 AM

Silvercreek -
I've read your posts and I'm still unclear as to the structure of this Federation. Is this a non-profit corporation or is it a private corporation owned by you and your partner? As others have stated is this being run with a Board of Directors or just you two?

You say there is no membership and I'm trying to figure out how it will survive without funds from the outside.

I was very disappointed that the last Federation didn't function as an advocate for the Sporthorse Breeding Community in the US - specifically with respect to standing up to the USEF/USDF/USEA - ETAL with respect to complete horse records and HORSE RECORDING WITH ONE NUMBER PER HORSE OR PONY. Without this we CAN NEVER BE ON PAR WITH EUROPE - even if we do have great stallion testing. We cannot document horses or their performance careers. Our current system facilitates fraud with respect to the competition records of horses, changing names to drop a bad record or NOT giving proper credit to Breeders, stallions or mares and their offspring.

Will this Federation serve as an advocate?? If it will then MEMBERSHIP is important to show the number of people who are active in this industry to MUSCLE UP against the above referenced organizations that DO NOT SERVE US VERY WELL AT ALL AND TAKE OUR MONEY WITH NOTHING IN RETURN.

Home Again Farm

Mar. 15, 2009, 11:43 AM

The idea that a federation MUST be run by an elected board and be by and for the members, while definitely admirable, just isn't realistic. Having been involved in organizations that are run by essentially volunteers if you have good volunteers and elected individuals, things go wonderfully well. However, all too often it becomes a handful of individuals doing all of the work. They can't WAIT to get out of those positions and when those individuals leave, the organization will often stagnate or crumble. If you want to participate, step up to the plate! Volunteer your time, energy and talent! Sitting back and complaining about perceived issues before they even occur is not productive! I think volumes can be said about just how cooperative everyone was at this initial meeting simply by reading the press release! It was a combined effort and the result was a unified voice expressing all of the registries! The organization can be dynamic and a voice for sport horse breeders, but it takes a unified effort for that to occur. And as is often the case, when there are too many varying opinions on how things "should" be done, it results in chaos. It is in the planning stages and I believe that Summer and Barbara are looking for help and input on how to make it WORK!! Not for premature criticisms about where the problems might be. Think positively and offer positive, constructive, productive ideas!

This bears repeating. I find the unanimity of purpose between the registries very promising. I find the criticisms and pointed questions about the blueprint of the association to be highly premature and extremely negative.

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 15, 2009, 11:51 AM

I think a Federation to work towards accepted stallions testing is a very good thing, but as for being a North American Warmblood and Sporthorse Breeders Association, not so much. I just love it when we are told that participation needs to be liminted, because too many cooks spoil the pot. It is not even started, and our voice is limited.

I asked some question that are important to many people. I hope they get answered.

What are the goals (short and long term) for the new Federation?

How will officers / BOD be chosen?

Will this be "owned" by a single entity, or can power/control be changed due to breeders wants?

To make changes, do breeders need to work "thru" their Registry representative?

Will there be open meetings that all can participate?

Will the new Federation be in a position to pressure the registries for changes that breeders need in the US? or will that jeopardize the funding?

These are important if people are thinking this organization will be what we need to give breeders a voice. If This Federation has more limited goals, and will function mainly to promote acceptance of some type testing for stallions, then having it run entirely by 2 interested parties is less of a concern, but I still think a Breeders Association that serves ONLY the breeders interests, not private interests, is needed.

Edgar

Mar. 15, 2009, 12:55 PM

Darlyn wrote:
"It is not even started, and our voice is limited."

Darlyn, is there a reason why don't you become part of a membership driven breed organization were you can become active and propose the changes you are looking for??

That would be more functional than to bitch and moan about things that do not even exist yet. I am sure you have some valid questions but you are putting it forward in a very negative way. Not until a frame for this federation is formed you will get a lot of your answers. why not make positive suggestions instead? It is a process that takes time to do right and should be given a chance to develop positively following a very positive initiation of the idea, last week.

Are your stallions and your breeding program licensed and/or registered with one of the registries involved in last weeks meeting? Why don't you start to work with them on some of your ideas you like to see implemented?

ahf

Mar. 15, 2009, 01:02 PM

ljshorses

Mar. 15, 2009, 01:32 PM

In order to assist with organizational or promotional $, I would support checkoff funding through my registry's membership renewals. A whole lot of worthy initiatives get funded that way in agriculture.

Something to think about, anyway.

Ooh great idea. And that's one way to not force membership dues for yet another organization. I however, would support it even if there was a membership due initially because I think this is something we as breeders in the U.S. would benefit from in the long run. Everything "new" takes time to get the wrinkles out. I again volunteer my services. I really want this to succeed.

ise@ssl

Mar. 15, 2009, 01:52 PM

Ponies in Europe are required to do the 30 day pony test. A few ponies in the US opted to do the 100 Day test but they were only required to do 30.

Lesley Feakins

Mar. 15, 2009, 03:19 PM

You mention that in Europe the ponies are required to do a 30 day pony test...how does that differ, if at all from the test required for the horses. As Tikki stated in her earlier post, the ponies here have pretty much been doing the same test as the horses with the exception of the test riders. Is there a difference?

Tiki

Mar. 15, 2009, 03:51 PM

Man Darlyn, you sure can you twist someone's words to meet your own goals.

STF

Mar. 15, 2009, 05:05 PM

I think what most ppl are worried about is a private owned Org/Fed that is run by politics, internal favoritism, etc. Stallions getting approved based on owners status, heavy promoting to board members or their farms, stallions, etc etc, yaddy, yaddy, yaddy.....
Im sure a detailed professional business plan will help clear up everyone fears.

You know as stong headed and onery as I am, there is no way in hell I would have even took this kind of project on. Summer, Barbara - the two of you are BRAVE souls, as you both know you cant make everyone happy. But..... in the same respect at least SOMEONE is trying to do something and its sad everyone wants to downplay it, slam it in the ground and already consider it a failure before it even gets started. :(

ise@ssl

Mar. 15, 2009, 05:22 PM

No Leslie - it's the same. They have to do cross-country, jumping and under-saddle work. They have guest riders and test riders. A mid-test evaluation and then a final test.

showjumpers66

Mar. 15, 2009, 08:02 PM

Honestly, the only nay sayers have been on this forum and it is just three people. Everyone else has been positive and supportive and the interest has been huge. The decision to create this Federation was made just 10 days ago, so give us a bit of time to get everything up and running.

showjumpers66

Mar. 15, 2009, 08:04 PM

Yes, the ponies will have a seperate testing format. It is mirrored closely to the 70-day test, but is held over a 30-day period. It will be no problem to run this test during the last 30 days of the 70-day test.

The 30 Day Sport Pony Test is, I believe) a completely different test. I have no idea what the other registries in this country do when a colt is imported, or one born here and goes for approval.

Tiki

Mar. 15, 2009, 08:10 PM

So basically the 30 Day Pony Test will be the same as what has been done before with ISR/OLNA and Hano running the test. I would expect, then, that this would open it up to the other registries that do Sport Ponies, GOV, RPSI, etc. That sounds great!!!!!

tri

Mar. 15, 2009, 08:15 PM

Hmmm, it seems like the same old same old. Anytime anyone starts asking some REAL questions - like Darlyn, me, etc., the personal assualts start and the name calling. Ya know, it gets old old old, when just asking a question is twisted into "you are being negative". Chin up Darlyn. The questions you ask are legitimate and bears answering.

BTW, I have some ocean front property in Arizona. Anyone want to buy? Now, don't be asking any questions or you might just be called a bad name!!! ;)

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 15, 2009, 08:35 PM

A healthy dose of skepticism in this day and age is not a bad thing. I am not a person that jumps on each new product, vaccine, feed thru fly control, or magic wonder drug/food, even if it is something I need and want. I don’t buy the new diet pills. I don’t click on those emails that tell me I have won a million dollars.

Anyone that has followed my posts will know who I am. Carefully checking out new things, and asking the hard questions has done me very well. Often when I ask those pointed questions, the answers I find lead me to walk down non-traditional paths.

Helping others to ask those questions is how I have lived my life. I teach people to take a good long look at their veterinarian, doctor, farrier, dentist, etc. I teach people to look to see if WHO is advertising the wonders of daily dewormer is Pfizer. WHO financed a drug study? WHO will benefit?

I don’t just board horses. I teach my boarders stable management. I tell them that if I can’t convince them about my boarding beliefs using real studies and examples, then they should not believe me. I believe any good barn manager, like a good teacher, trainer, parent, works their way out of a job.

I don’t make decisions for them. I guide them to the pros and cons of each problem, and let them choose. I teach people to look at vaccines to see what are really valid, before making a decision for their horse. I teach them that nothing is benign. I teach them to not just follow blindly.

I don't believe in letting people put their head in the sand to think they are protecting their horse with an annual or even biannual flu or rhino vaccine.

I don't believe that barns should preach quarantine for each new arriving horse for 10/14/30 days, and TOTALLY ignore those coming back each week from shows, foxhunts, clinics, and mixed barn trail rides.

Just because something has to do with breeding, does not mean I stop thinking, or seeking answers. It is who I AM. It does not mean I am not an optimist. It means I want to have a CLEAR picture of what is and isn't.

It is who I AM & always have been.

I also believe the best time to give input to how an organization is formed and its goals is BEFORE it is set in stone. We should WAIT to see how others set it up? Wait until the decisions have been made on how it will work? Why is putting these questions on the table so the "powers that be" HAVE our thoughts and input WHILE they are deciding how to set it up.

I have been opposed to thinking any organization is THE thing we need if it is “owned” by a single power. Why should I change my beliefs now? That is why I am ASKING these questions. I think openness is where an organization starts to be what we need.

As for my program, stallion approval is going to have zero effect on my goals, but I am concerned with the industry as a whole, and how it is perceived. What I am most interested in is the one number, tracking, and I really don’t want that to be put on a back burner. I think that needs to be the first and major goal of THE organization that breeders need.

If this new organization’s major focus is on stallion testing and approvals, fine, but saying an individual needs to work thru a registry is not giving power to breeders, and <drum roll> we will STILL need a North American Warmblood and Sporthorse Breeders Association run by an elected board of breeders, riders, trainers, judges, and vets, that is funded with individual memberships.

Zlotych

Mar. 15, 2009, 09:01 PM

Not everyone wants to reinvent the wheel with a "non traditional" breeding program, but having a place to start off with stallion testing that is standardized and accepted by many breeding organizations is a good thing. Its too bad that a few outspoken people always seem to ruin a good thing. I am sure the 'tough questions' will have answers at some point, if this whole program is even relevant to them. Its a fledgling idea and program at this point. Have some patience.

Equine Reproduction

Mar. 15, 2009, 09:33 PM

A healthy dose of skepticism in this day and age is not a bad thing.

Agreed.

I also believe the best time to give input to how an organization is formed and its goals is BEFORE it is set in stone. We should WAIT to see how others set it up? Wait until the decisions have been made on how it will work? Why is putting these questions on the table so the "powers that be" HAVE our thoughts and input WHILE they are deciding how to set it up.

The organization has not been formed yet! It's in its infancy and is at a stage where input is being requested! But, the flip side is that there needs to be SOMETHING in place in order to make adjustments and to tweak it so that it becomes a workable entity that will move forward. Flip side is that you don't want it so hobbled and loaded down with restrictions and requirements that it becomes too cumbersome to be effective.

I have been opposed to thinking any organization is THE thing we need if it is “owned” by a single power. Why should I change my beliefs now? That is why I am ASKING these questions. I think openness is where an organization starts to be what we need.

Ownership hasn't even truly entered into the picture. I pointed out that having it run by volunteers tends to be ineffective. Flip side is that it needs to be run in such a way that it's able to be changed if necessary. Discussion is on trying to establish an organization that works as a unified voice. In order to accomplish that, there needs to be input from the industry. Naysaying it without adding constructive input isn't productive. So...how to make it work? An organization with paid employees that is at the onus of the various registries? Making it a membership organization that breeders can apply to? Strictly volunteer? Or perhaps, having the people voted into office but they receive a salary for their work? I suspect the latter option is probably the most effective.

What I am most interested in is the one number, tracking, and I really don’t want that to be put on a back burner. I think that needs to be the first and major goal of THE organization that breeders need.

That was actually discussed as part of the meeting.

If this new organization’s major focus is on stallion testing and approvals, fine, but saying an individual needs to work thru a registry is not giving power to breeders, and <drum roll> we will STILL need a North American Warmblood and Sporthorse Breeders Association run by an elected board of breeders, riders, trainers, judges, and vets, that is funded with individual memberships.

Mmm...I didn't see that as what the focus of the federation was to be! What I heard was that it was an organization that would offer a unified voice to the registries AND the memberships of those registries AND Sporthorse Breeders. Indeed, as part of the discussion, it was asked what and who was not represented at the initial meeting and ALL of the registries offered up who else they felt was not there and would possibly be interested in participating in and having a voice with. The conscious effort was to NOT exclude anyone. It's an excellent step in the right direction. And, I certainly don't see anywhere that says a breeder needs to work through a registry. That's an individual choice. I think that most will agree that one breeds a particular breed of horse and works with a particular registry because you agree with most (if not all) of the goals of that particular registry.

One breeder attempting to make changes within the industry, no matter what it might be, pretty much is ignored. An entire registry that attempts to make changes has more of a voice, but when compared to other breed registries such as the Quarter Horse, Arabian or Thoroughbred industry, sporthorse registries are severely lacking in the clout they carry. Combining those numbers can only prove to be beneficial! Step up and SPEAK! Offer constructive ideas! Put your money where your mouth is! But don't start by tearing down something that is very much in the formative stages and decrying it as a failure right from the start. I'm just totally puzzled by the negativity on something that has the potential of accomplishing so much!

So let's discuss how to make the organization something that WORKS for breeders! Our registries are supposed to WORK for us, as well, no? We obviously don't all have the same ideas and beliefs (how boring would that be? <lol>), but I do think much of what we struggle for is the same - recognition of the animals we breed, identifying the parentage of animals in competition, a universal way of tracking performance animals, etc.

JMHO <smile>...

Kathy St.Martin
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