What does this horsey behavior tell you and what would you do about it? [Archive]

Meggan82

Mar. 9, 2009, 10:05 AM

I'm just going to provide the scenario about what's happening and not interject any of my thoughts, because I want opinions about what's going on here.
We start off with some stretching work at trot and canter, then I pick him up and ask just basic lateral work. He starts getting tight in his back...then he starts spooking. In anticipation of said spook, I flex him away from the scary and put on some more inside leg.....he gets worse, tighter, giraffe like, to the point where I end up in tears and horse has won.

Thoughts? :confused:

2enduraceriders

Mar. 9, 2009, 10:11 AM

In anticipation of said spook, I flex him away from the scary and put on some more inside leg.....he gets worse, tighter, giraffe like, to the point where I end up in tears and horse has won.

Trainer gets on horse. Horse performs beautifully, no spooks, a little resistant and tight in the lateral work but NOTHING compared to the tightness I get, and works out of it, stretching into contact, snorting, happy.

Thoughts? :confused:

My first thought is rider error.....sorry.
It sounds like you are tensing and setting this up.
Try totally changing your routine and ride more assertively (a bit aggressively). Horses pick up extremely fast on how the rider feels. As soon as you worry the horse will. The trainer is not so the horse is not.

Meggan82

Mar. 9, 2009, 10:13 AM

My first thought is rider error.....sorry.
It sounds like you are tensing and setting this up.

That's okay.....I don't like things sugar-coated for me! :lol: I appreciate honest opinions and really want to try and get thru this!

kahjul

Mar. 9, 2009, 10:15 AM

FWIW-My mare went through a similar thing in her training. It only happened in lateral work. She would do it in lessons or when we were working alone and in any arena. When I was in front of my trainer, she could talk us through it, but it was still there. What finally made it stop was a friend who said it looked like my mare felt 'boxed in'. As an observer, she could actually see the change in my mare's eye. As if she suddenly felt that either the work was too difficult, or I was asking too much or something. With my firnds awareness in mind I started asking for a bit less and went from sitting to rising trot in all my lateral work. About a month of this and she was no longer apprehensive at all and the spooking had stopped completely. She now is back to lateral work in sitting trot and I can ask for alot more with her staying quiet.

rileyt

Mar. 9, 2009, 10:28 AM

I totally agree -- rider error.

To be more specific - I suspect you are giving clashing aids. Your horse "understands" what you want, and performs well the first few times, but something about the way your ride the movement is causing pain/discomfort for the horse. So horse gets progressively more tense, and ouchy, starts resisting and spooking. (because it starts to hurt more and more)

It may also be that there is a subtle physical problem with the horse (either one of your making, or something small wrong with the horse). Your trainer is skilled enough to work the horse through it (and/or "support" the injury) well enough that horse can still perform, whereas you, as the weaker rider, can't quite guide him through it "pain free".

Either way - I think this is a pain/frustration response on the part of the horse.

Ambrey

Mar. 9, 2009, 10:32 AM

In anticipation of said spook, I flex him away from the scary and put on some more inside leg.....he gets worse, tighter, giraffe like, to the point where I end up in tears and horse has won.

Hmmm, anticipating a spook is the worst thing you can do (ask me how I know this!:lol:). Besides what you're trying to do to be proactive, you're also giving him those little, invisible signs that say "you're going to spook here."

OK, here is another Jane Savoie word of wisdom. If you're going by an area thinking "don't spook, don't spook!" your visual image is "spook, spook!" What I do (or try to do) is keep a visual of him walking/trotting/whatever smoothly and confidently by the "bad zone." At the same time I'm watching his ears and trying to keep them on me, giving him something to do.

(eta: I totally feel your pain, because sometimes one really bad unexpected spook can just throw me off and get my adrenaline pumping, then I'm kind of a lost cause :()

sweetiebob

Mar. 9, 2009, 02:04 PM

I agree with many others. You are tensing up in anticipation of problems. I had a similar problem. Whenever I rode near the outside door of our indoor arena, my mare would spook or refuse to go near the door. She's been at the same barn for over 10 years. Now instead of tensing my body up, I let it relax. On my trainers advice, I pushed her with my legs, to go to the door and gave her a slap on the rump. To my surprise she obeyed and we started to work. She forgot all about the door and listened to the work of the lesson. Work with your trainer and see what helps.

Bayou Roux

Mar. 9, 2009, 02:16 PM

Gloria

Mar. 9, 2009, 02:38 PM

twofatponies

Mar. 9, 2009, 03:13 PM

My husbands mare will turn into stupid Ms. Spooky if I get anywhere near a "don't you dare spook, dammit" attitude. She can feel it, and she loves the fight, I swear. If I am in a cheerful, good humor it doesn't happen. If I'm having a bad day, she will take issue with some random thing that's been in the arena every day and get more and more worked up. It is very challenging for me to control myself (am I breathing, are my thighs relaxed, is my back relaxed, are my shoulders relaxed) when I am anticipating a spook. She never spooks when my husband is riding because he never remembers to worry about it!! I feel like reminding him sometimes! :P

One thing that helps, especially when I am riding alone, is to put something in the spooky place that I have to concentrate on - ground poles, for example - so I can't think about the spook. Then she won't think about it either. Or she might spook a little once, but when I don't react to it, she won't start repeating it and increasing it. With the poles there I have to concentrate on my line to the poles, looking across them where we are going, etc. and it helps keep me focused.

If it's boredom, something like that (poles) might help, too, as well as just trying to do your exercises in a different pattern - like leg yielding by practicing spirals instead of going from the centerline to the track. Or serpentines in which you practice transitions, instead of doing transitions on a circle or around the track.

rileyt

Mar. 9, 2009, 03:34 PM

I agree everybody who has posted so far as potential pitfalls. Another possiblity is, your horse may be bored... Maybe your horse knows every routine you do with him, and decide he should entertain himself... That happens to me a few times. Once I ask something that is completely different from my daily routine, or ask something that is much harder than we are usually schooling, which requires him to pay more attention to me, the spooking stopped. One time I was so tired of my training level horse' silly spooking, I asked him to canter 10 meters circle, then allowed him to stretch a bit, and then trot 6 meters circle, then alowed him to stretch a bit, and then counter canter... Well, that sure cured it... He was SOOOO happy. Go figure.

Now the difficult part is to decide the cause of the spooking. If he is apprehensive, you need to back off. If he is bored, you need to kick it up a notch. As you see, the approach is completely opposite, and you will get a negative result if you misinterpretate the cause...

Respectfully, I disagree.

One of the best things I've learned as a rider, (and it took me a long time, hearing time and time again different theories on how to ride a spooking horse), is that you ride the horse. not the spook. Granted, it takes a certain security to ride the horse knowing he's about to leap sideways, and more novice riders can't help but get tense if they really think they're about to be put on the ground.

But, it matters not whether the spook is "genuine", or caused by laziness. You can tie yourself into knots trying to figure that all out.

You ride the horse. If you ride by a frieght train, you ride the horse. You ignore the train. If your horse starts to bulge the inside shoulder (because of the train), you fix it the same way (and with the same blend of compassion and discipline) as you would ride any horse with a bulding shoulder... because the horse is IGNORING YOUR AIDS. THAT is what needs to be fixed. Not the train.

Its not the spook that needs to be fixed. Its the moment when the horse ignores your aids.

AnotherRound

Mar. 9, 2009, 05:24 PM

I agree with almost everybody and their suggestions. I also thought that when he begins to tense, or raise his head, you right then need to work with him to relax and use his back and drop his head, worling on that until he does, rather than repeating the movement. When he isn't bending and responding correctly, you need to re-bring him back to working for you, no matter why he did that. If you do that right away, you are working through the errors until you both have your basic working fram of mind and body back again. You can't just ride into a movement, do your circles or spiral or half halts, whatever is appropriate to get him working and you connected again. then every time you or he disconnects, you right away get it back, working util its back. That's the only way to get through it and is what I believe your trainer is doing.

No, I don't agree with Amberry, I don't think a spook is ok, and no, I don't agree that its okay that you anticipate a spook. How do you have the time to think about a spook if you are working on your connection and on keeping him focused on you and his job? If you are anticipaitng a spook, you are not working on your connection with your horse, and not working keeping your horse connected to you from moment to moment with you. Where are you letting up your vigilance on your work, and why?

I just keep thinking about me with my trainer, she says you have to ride him every moment, there is no rest or free ride not for a moment, so even though I come across things like you just describe, a squirrelly movement, a spook, they can't develop into very much loss of connection with him or me because I am right on him the very next moment, and we don't begin the movement until we are reconnected. under this kind of work, there is no room for a spook, because you are working right over him. He can't move out from under you or invert, because you are working on his connection and through impulsion ever single moment. that will begin to reduce the amount of time you are disconnected from him, and will begin to communicate to him that he is going to keep working every moment. Like your trainer is doing.

Edited to add: Exactly, RileyT, that is exactly what I was thinking, you said it, I just skipped reading your post, but that's it, baby.

sid

Mar. 9, 2009, 05:41 PM

Totally agree with RileyT -- great post.

katarine

Mar. 9, 2009, 05:47 PM

Ride the horse. It doesn't matter where you are, or what is happening around you. Ride the horse. Your trainer rides a ton of horses and doesn't bother to notice there's a blanket on the rail, or someone rearranged the jump standards, etc....s/he is just up there riding and fixing and supporting and sending and blah blah blah- if you'll jump up there and think about what you need to do and just ride the mare, she'll be fine. Sure, she'll expect you to be distracted, but don't be tempted...ride the horse :)

slc2

Mar. 9, 2009, 06:10 PM

Agree with rileyt, ride the horse, not the spook.

Most likely, you don't ride your horse as forward as your trainer, and when you give an aid, he doesn't take it seriously, when he doesn't listen to the trainer, she makes a correction - quickly, and his answer is, 'oh my, i better do that'.

Spooking happens when horses are not working and forward.

The solution is to go more forward, and work them more. This loosens up their back muscles so they settle down mentally.

They pick a spot in the arena and spook there over and over, not due to fear, but because that's where you are not working them, and not paying attention to them. They spook where you are the LEAST working them and making them go forward.

Bend your horse, send him forward, bend him, go forward, don't look at what he is spooking at, look straight ahead.

Try not to have a tense tight, stiff hold on the reins, keep the contact, don't make the reins longer, keep them the same length, but AT THAT LENGTH, feel like the reins are made out of jello, like they are a little loose and your shoulders and arms are a little loose and jello-y. Feel kind of loosey goosey in the shoulders and arms, like you can easily bend the horse left or right, but this is really important - keep him pushed up to the bridle, so you feel him on both reins, just be sure it isn't a rigid, stiff feel you have.

Are you crying because you're frustrated, or are you afraid you're going to get hurt? If you're scared to death and sobbing out of fear, something more needs to change.

If not, ride more forward, ride with a loose soft feel in your arms, go FORWARD and grit your teeth and say, 'I can do this and i am GOING to do this!'

Just ride the little stinker, ride it like you stole it.

Another thing you can do to build your confidence is to take the mounting block over to where he spooks, and get on him there, and ride him around in a walk in a circle around the mounting block. Ride him for an hour there, at a walk, no matter how many times he spooks, just keep going.

Lieslot

Mar. 9, 2009, 06:12 PM

Maybe you need to be a bit firmer.
My horse has a new-ety too, as soon as we start working, he pulls the reins out of my hands, so I nearly land with my face on his withers.
I immediately start worrying, checking saddle, bit, etc etc, convinced he must be in pain somewhere, else he wouldn't pull the reins out of my hands for sure.
But then my husband gets on him (who normally does no more then trailriding and doesn't really know what he's doing in the ring). And guess what, no pulling reins out of his hands..... coz all he needed was a single yell and he never tried it again with him.

It's often more in your head then in the horse's head.
Ride and work for every stride.
I have those days where I'm determined, convinced, they will work properly, forward and no silliness, and my determination flows over on to them and we have a great schooling session.
But admittedly the majority of the time I get on thinking, must be very soft in my hands (hold a feather), very light with my legs (cotton ball strokes), ...., and guess what, ... they totally take the p*ss that day. Spook in all 4 corners of my ring, think it's okay to suddenly stop from a trot to rub nose on knee, ... literally taking me for a ride.
It doesn't mean I have to be harsh, but just make sure I'm one step ahead of them so I don't even have to reprimand them.
I find that a little firmness in the beginning of the schooling session makes them so much softer and lighter as we progress during the hour.
So what I've learned : start firm, end light; coz starting light, turns it into a fight. :D

sid

Mar. 9, 2009, 07:00 PM

Stop worrying and don't fight. Use your judgement, if you know your horse. Dont' get stronger, don't get weaker from what someone tells you on a BB.

That human "fretting" compenent to riding/training is always counter productive. The only time to worry if you think there is a health/pain issue in your horse's response to what is being asked.

If you see someone do better with your horse than you do, then simply emulate them.

Mar. 9, 2009, 07:07 PM

then I pick him up and ask for leg-yield, shoulder-in, haunches-in...just basic lateral work. First few are good, then he starts getting tight in his back.

This one statement jumped out at me. How many "good" ones do you need? He's answered you correctly two or three times, but he keeps being asked the same question. For some horses, that can be very frustrating. Then the rider gets frustrated and tense, which accentuates the horse's anxiety and he starts looking for a way to get out of an uncomfortable situation and the spooks start.

That may not be what's going on your situation, but it was for a horse I used to ride. If I got firm with him, he just got worse. So I broke up the schooling stuff, tried not to do things in the same order every time and made sure he got loads of praise when he did things well. It's not coddling a horse to do that. It's adjusting to his personality.

I agree with everyone who says you ride the horse, not the spook. But if what you're doing is accentuating the problem, you need to change. That's also riding the horse.

quietann

Mar. 9, 2009, 07:09 PM

You're getting good feedback on the horsey behavior, which is what you asked.

But now I have to ask about the trainer behavior...is the trainer telling you this, too? Is she educating you? Training you? If not...why not?

Based on my experience so far, eliminating another person's tension is extremely difficult. I am a fairly timid rider, with a sometimes difficult mare. Both people who've worked with us can note tension, give me some instruction on reducing it (Breathe! Breathe! Breathe!), but it's a much different process.

I do find that when things start going sideways, focusing on my breathing helps. So does talking, to the horse, to the trainer, to myself.... Some people sing while riding, too.

Jane Savoie has a lot of good ideas for dealing with tension and spooks, and when I remember to do them, it helps. So does Centered Riding "soft eyes."

For known spooky or distracting spots, a tiny wiggle on the rein away from the spot helps. E.g. my mare likes to look out the arena door to the barn aisle, I know this, so I ask her to focus on me.

Meggan82

Mar. 10, 2009, 11:12 AM

Thanks everyone for the great advice.

I kinda knew it was me, so I've just decided to change my approach to riding him.

Not care about the spooks.
Not ask for too much, i.e. if he does a good leg-yield each way, we move on to something else.
Realizing that, *gasp* there is no judge in my arena...the entire ride does not have to be perfect....so he comes above the bit when he looks at something...big deal, just close my leg and ride forward.

Ambrey

Mar. 10, 2009, 11:17 AM

When my horse gets "looky," I try to change it up and get his mind on something else. That's the perfect time for a circle!

Gloria

Mar. 10, 2009, 11:56 AM

Respectfully, I disagree.

One of the best things I've learned as a rider, (and it took me a long time, hearing time and time again different theories on how to ride a spooking horse), is that you ride the horse. not the spook. Granted, it takes a certain security to ride the horse knowing he's about to leap sideways, and more novice riders can't help but get tense if they really think they're about to be put on the ground.

But, it matters not whether the spook is "genuine", or caused by laziness. You can tie yourself into knots trying to figure that all out.

You ride the horse. If you ride by a frieght train, you ride the horse. You ignore the train. If your horse starts to bulge the inside shoulder (because of the train), you fix it the same way (and with the same blend of compassion and discipline) as you would ride any horse with a bulding shoulder... because the horse is IGNORING YOUR AIDS. THAT is what needs to be fixed. Not the train.

Its not the spook that needs to be fixed. Its the moment when the horse ignores your aids.

Of course you ride the horse not the spook. And that is why you ignore the spook and find something to redirect his energy. At the same time, you need to understand your horses' personality so you know how to tackle the problem. When the horse ignore your aid, are you confusing him, does he misunderstand your request, is he testing you?

A horse that is ignoreing you because he is confused require you to slow down, break things up, etc. A horse that is ignoring you because he is testing you requires you to be firmer (not crueler). A horse that is plain playful may require a little bit of playtime first before you put him into serious work. If you don't put into the effort to understand your horse, you will end up using the wrong aids and the wrong techniques, and you will have a horse that is worse when you get off than when you get on.

You cannot ride all horses the same ways. Just like a good teacher cannot teach all students the same way. Yes. they all learn certain skills. And yes, there are basic rules. However, every horse just like every human, is an individual, and to achieve the best result, requires the teacher to put into effort to help the individual student.

No body ever says riding is easy. It isn't. And that is why it is so rewarding and intriguing. And that is why it is so important to have a really knowlegeable person to help anyone through sticky spots. The great horseperson sees the cause not the obvious.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein

Mar. 10, 2009, 05:30 PM

Mine spooks when he's tense either mentally or physically (or both). It's a release mechanism. So I'd work on forward over the back and only add the lateral work in when he's reasonably relaxed, and start the straight forward as soon as you feel him tensing up. Transitions within and between gaits are helpful too to get him thinking without worrying him, at least that's the case with my horse :)

Petstorejunkie

Mar. 12, 2009, 12:45 AM

your goal as a rider is to be THE most interesting thing to your horse at all times... that's how you get cooperation and a horse on the aides...
so in short your horse is finding you boring. Don't be a boring rider.
your horse looks outside the arena= rider is boring. Become more interesting by asking something of him that is physically or mentally challenging. This will vary from horse to horse. Some horses it's a twitter of a rein, others a spiral in and out, another may need a transition to get the attention back onto you.

To put it in a bigger picture: the less evolved rider uses force or pain to be interesting. the more evolved rider offers a challenge for the horse to solve.

merrygoround

Mar. 12, 2009, 01:39 AM

You're getting good feedback on the horsey behavior, which is what you asked.

But now I have to ask about the trainer behavior...is the trainer telling you this, too? Is she educating you? Training you? If not...why not?

Cannot help but agree.

I've dealt with horses like this. the last thing you want to do is try to maintain course. Start thinking!! Find something absolutely simply to do as a distraction, if that doesn't work, put his nose to your knee and send him on that small circle, tapping with your inside handed whip. Then send him forward in a straight line trot. More "stuff" will get him back in that same circle. They usually find it more comfortable to stop the nonsense and answer your resonable requests, than to play the fool.

goeslikestink

Mar. 12, 2009, 07:24 AM

Of course you ride the horse not the spook. And that is why you ignore the spook and find something to redirect his energy. At the same time, you need to understand your horses' personality so you know how to tackle the problem. When the horse ignore your aid, are you confusing him, does he misunderstand your request, is he testing you?

A horse that is ignoreing you because he is confused require you to slow down, break things up, etc. A horse that is ignoring you because he is testing you requires you to be firmer (not crueler). A horse that is plain playful may require a little bit of playtime first before you put him into serious work. If you don't put into the effort to understand your horse, you will end up using the wrong aids and the wrong techniques, and you will have a horse that is worse when you get off than when you get on.

You cannot ride all horses the same ways. Just like a good teacher cannot teach all students the same way. Yes. they all learn certain skills. And yes, there are basic rules. However, every horse just like every human, is an individual, and to achieve the best result, requires the teacher to put into effort to help the individual student.

No body ever says riding is easy. It isn't. And that is why it is so rewarding and intriguing. And that is why it is so important to have a really knowlegeable person to help anyone through sticky spots. The great horseperson sees the cause not the obvious.

yeap agree to that one