What % of seller's price to offer and to pay?

[cwg]

I know this is a very general question and the answer depends on lots of factors -BUT...When you start to negotiate with a seller, approx what % of the price do you make for your first offer and what % do you end up paying? For example, would you make your first offer as 70% of the selling price? More? Less?
I know that the answer depends on age of the horse, time of the year, how long the horse has been for sale, how much you want it, the price of the horse, part of the country where horse is located, etc.
I'm just looking for general guidelines, not hard and fast rules.

[NJRider]

You can offer anything you wish but you had better clarify whether the price is negotiable before you waste anyone's time shopping out of your price range. You can research the market and assess how much in line a horse is priced and go from there, not just assume sellers "mark up" their horses.

[RiverOaksFarm]

Here's what I think :)

- if the price is fair, pay it.

- if the price is below fair, pay it and count yourself lucky.

- if the price is above fair, offer a fair price.

I don't see how percentages can play into it. For example, I don't like playing pricing games, so I price my horses fairly from the start, I don't mark them up in advance so I can reduce the prices to 70%. There tend to be more pricing games with the uber-expensive horses and with horses with multiple trainers involved, but I wouldn't go horse shopping assuming everyone is playing pricing games and assuming I can knock off x percent. Many times you'll find horses which are already fairly priced from the start -- and right now with the economy, I'm seeing plenty of horses which are already a steal, I don't think I could offer those owners less and have a clear conscience.

[Bronte]

Whoa! With a top class seller, no negotiation. The price is the price. With less than that, on a sliding scale............ I once purchased a 6 yrs old (well bred ~ but next to nothing done with him, for his stud fee).
Be careful not to offend.

[RiverOaksFarm]

You can offer anything you wish but you had better clarify whether the price is negotiable before you waste anyone's time shopping out of your price range. You can research the market and assess how much in line a horse is priced and go from there, not just assume sellers "mark up" their horses.

That's a really good point too. There is no point in wasting the seller's time or the buyer's time if there is no chance you'll ever agree on a price anyhow -- it's better/easier for everyone involved to touch on those things at the beginning.

[MelantheLLC]

Whoa! With a top class seller, no negotiation. The price is the price. With less than that, on a sliding scale............ I once purchased a 6 yrs old (well bred ~ but next to nothing done with him, for his stud fee).
Be careful not to offend.

I don't agree with this. You can always make an offer. And they can always say no.

The key to getting the best price on anything is to be ready to walk away, and live with your decision. Whether you are the seller or the buyer.

[camohn]

I have had folks offer half of my asking price. Since my horses are always reasonably priced I do ask WHY the low offer. The answer is usually "I know he is worth more than that but that is what I can afford." I DO take exception to folks wasting my time showing them the horse and mailing videos out when they know they can't afford the horse. If the horse is a TB I also frequently get "because I can get an OTT for half that price". My answer for that one is usually "but someone has already lost a lot of money on that horse because it was intended to run and can't do it's job. My horse has not failed at his intended job yet." I have nothing against OTTs, I have had lots of them......but just because the race horse owner is losing a lot of money on his horse does not mean I have to. Now if someone was to reasonably tell my why my horse was not competitively priced that would be a different ball of wax. But..to answer the question:
If the horse is a bargain I pay full price and don't quibble.
If the horse is priced about average I will offer/expect to be talked down on mine about 15%
If the horse is overpriced then offer what you feel the horse is worth. No percentage will really work there.

[JanWeber]

If you are seriously interested in the horse, you should know the market for horses of that type (breed, age, experience, temperment, soundness) and know if the price is in line with the market. "It doesn't hurt to ask" in offering a low price is an insult to the seller if you know the horse is priced fairly. If it is, but is out of your price range, you should have made that known up front when you asked if there was any flexibility in the price (which you DID, right?)

[NJRider]

When buyer makes an inquiry who is also using their trainer to help them, I remind them that my price does not allow for any commissions, shipping, etc....so to keep those other expenses in mind. I also price my horses very fairly and go out of my way to accommodate them. I still had someone spend about $800 on a plane ticket to try a horse, go home and make a low offer because of the shipping costs. They basically threw away $800 for nothing.

Both buying and selling is an arduous process. It takes a lot of Advil and a good sense of humor!

[cwg]

I haven't been horse shopping in a long time. I've always paid the asking price. But the experiences that I am having this time around have caused me to ask the question. I've had several sellers tell me that they priced the horse assuming that the buyer would give them a lowball offer and that includes horses priced under $10K to over $60K ($60K horse wasn't for me. Just got into a conversation with someone at a horse show):winkgrin:
So I wasn't sure what price range to be looking at if the asking price didn't really represent what the seller wants for the horse.

[MelantheLLC]

Both buying and selling is an arduous process. It takes a lot of Advil and a good sense of humor!

This is very true.

I don't personally low-ball. I just offer what I believe the horse is worth if it's in my price range.

Nevertheless, I do not take the seller's feelings into account. It is not an emotional matter. Frivolous offers are part of the game, just like sellers who don't tell the buyer everything they know.

Ask a realtor. The hardest part of closing a sale is getting the emotions out of the way, on both sides. We all have stories about the exasperating behavior of the other side. With buying and selling horses, count yourself lucky if you just end up exasperated and not lied to and cheated.

There are no rules about what can be offered, what's "rude," etc.

Buyers, simple courtesy, keep appointments, communicate promptly; sellers, if you don't like the offer just say no.

[kashmere]

NJrider - When you say your price does not allow for any commissions, what do you mean by that? i'm not well-versed in commissions etc., never having horse-shopped with a commissioned trainer. I would assume you mean that 100% of the purchase price goes to you as the seller, and the buyer then pays their trainer etc. whatever commission they are being charged on top of that, independently of you. Is that right?

Do asking prices ever include commission? That wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense.

[Couture TB]

Almost all of our horses prices are firm, as they are priced at what they are worth at the time. ie if the horse has not been ridden in awhile and is out of shape so they can not try it over a ton of fences then they are not priced what they are when they are in training.

It is quite a headache when people come out to try horses that they can not afford and assume that the price is neg. My question is why waste your time and the sellers time in doing that? If you can not afford the horse, which is fine, ask if the price is firm or if they are open to offers.

I have only ever made an offer lower then the selling price on a horse once. The trainer and owner knew that I loved the horse, I looked at him for a client but he needed to much work for them. I told them flat out that if I could afford him I would buy him. I managed to sell a youngster and I had been keeping in touch with the trainer. The horse was still for sale. I told her pretty much hay, this is what I can afford, I am not trying to offend you but this is all I have and they sold the horse to me as the owner cared about having him go to a trainer that would give him good training. The trainer I delt with would have purchased him but he was to small for her. So I lucked out :)

But really, most of the times when dealing with breeders (not backyard ones, and I do not mean small breeders but ones that breed low quality horses) and trainers horses, or show horses the price is the price

[NJRider]

NJrider - When you say your price does not allow for any commissions, what do you mean by that? i'm not well-versed in commissions etc., never having horse-shopped with a commissioned trainer. I would assume you mean that 100% of the purchase price goes to you as the seller, and the buyer then pays their trainer etc. whatever commission they are being charged on top of that, independently of you. Is that right?

Do asking prices ever include commission? That wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense.

Yup. It mean that my horse's price is what it is...if the buyer has a trainer act on their behalf or lives on the other side of the country, I am NOT taking those expenses off my already low price because they are paying their trainer a commission or have a $1000 shipping charge. I have had buyer's trainers try to pilfer money when they were not even personally involved...so I make it clear that the price is what it is. Now, if I end up working with my own trainer and SHE acts as my agent on my behalf, that is different. I make sure that I am happy enough with the selling price to allow for her commission.
Did I say you need Advil for buying and selling? More like straight scotch!

[EqTrainer]

You can offer anything you wish but you had better clarify whether the price is negotiable before you waste anyone's time shopping out of your price range. You can research the market and assess how much in line a horse is priced and go from there, not just assume sellers "mark up" their horses.

Bold and italics are mine.. I agree w/this 100%. I do NOT negotiate on sales prices unless something significant comes up on the PPE. I do make sure I tell people this first.. but as a buyer, if your intention is to negotiate, you should ask first. Not everyone brings it up right away like I do.

[mbm]

hmmmm but since most folks wont discuss what they paid for a horse how the heck does anyone know what "fair" is?

[atlatl]

I do NOT negotiate on sales prices unless something significant comes up on the PPE. I do make sure I tell people this first.. but as a buyer, if your intention is to negotiate, you should ask first. Not everyone brings it up right away like I do.

Interesting. As a buyer I do not negotiate on sales prices when something significant comes up on the PPE; I stop there. I realize this is odd, but if you've agreed on a price and something comes up in the PPE that you can live with, why re-negotiate? If it doesn't matter, it shouldn't matter in the price. If it does matter, why proceed with that horse?

[webmistress32]

one rule I go by in negotiation: your first offer doesn't insult the seller AND they accept it, you've just been had.

[Gracie]

A friend of mine sold a horse to someone who came with their trainer. My friend and the buyer agreed on the sales price and a date to pick up the horse. The trainer approached my friend later and said if she wanted to deal to go through, my friend would have to pay the trainer a percent of the agreed sales price; otherwise, no deal.

The trainer believed that they had enough influence with the buyer to blow the deal. My friend paid the percent to the trainer.

[Happy Feet]

It is a tricky thing neg when buying horses. Like previous poster have said touching base, in the begining of the process about if the horse is neg, or how neg is the seller can really help withthe process. The buyer can get a feel for what the seller really is asking for, and if that is in the buyers budget and if on paper at least, it looks like a fair price for the horse. If you go to look at a horse for xyz price, you like the horse, and the horse is fairly priced for the market, then maybe ask for a 5% or so off the price, this will not offend most sellers, you might save a few bucks, you might not, but in the end still be very friendly afterward. Do not offer 1/2 of the price if there has not been discussion about if the seller is neg, or how neg and expect to have a pleasant and friendly response back. - Unless maybe something comes up unexpectedly on a PPE.
I know people are really wanting to feel like they have gotten a bargin in this economy - and there are some out there. But at the end of the day, people shouldn't go looking at horses they can only afford if the priced was dropped by 50%. Good quality, well trained horses are expensive, even in today's market, and be prepared to pay for that quality and training.
Edited to add: GET a GOOD trainer to help you navigate this process! I know most AA hate paying trainers comissions when they feel they can find themselfs there own horses. But in these sorts of situations when someone isn't really expierenced in buying horses to know what fair market value is on a horse and what sort of neg can or should be done, a trainer can in the end save you a lot of money or heartache!

[FriesianX]

one rule I go by in negotiation: your first offer doesn't insult the seller AND they accept it, you've just been had.


??? :confused: Really? I think some sellers are a bit more laid back then that! It takes a lot to insult many of us! I have had people make offers that were maybe a bit low, but I knew it would be a good home, so I happily accepted the offer. Do you think they feel they were had? I hope not - I always thought they got a really good deal, but my horse got a really good home! It isn't always worth haggling back and forth over a few dollars.

My goal is to place my horses in GOOD homes, and hopefully get a reasonable price for the horse. It takes a lot to insult me (and I really don't think I'm an exception here?) - in fact, I've only been insulted a few times, and in two recent cases, they were buyers who ran me through the mill - several sets of video, tons of special pictures, then an offer of 40% or 50% of my (already reasonable) asking price. The insult was not the offer, it was all the work to do special videos, rearranging schedules so my husband and I could both take a half day off to video, in both cases, pre-purchase exams scheduled, then cancelled last minute (which means the vet's schedule gets messed up too).

Generally, I am not insulted - I may counter, or I may just state 'we are so far apart in price, this might not be the horse for you'.

I don't think you can blanket state that you start at 30% of a price, or 80% of a price. As several have noted - if the price seems reasonable, then go with it. If you ARE going to make a low offer, let the seller know up front that your budget is "X", are you too far out of the price range? Most sellers will appreciate your up front honesty, and some will let you know they are flexible to a good home. They may want to see how you get along with the horse before deciding if it is worth accepting a lower offer.

Having said all that - I do know some "horse dealers" who always build in a cushion. The manager of a well known Warmblood place out here stated he always puts a $3,000 cushion in the asking price so buyers can feel like they got a deal :eek: Oh, I hate to hear that!

ETA - I agree with the comments about bringing a trainer or knowledgeable friend along. If you don't want to pay a full commission, ask your trainer about coming after you've tried a horse once or twice, and just giving you a short lesson on the horse, or even to review a video of you riding the horse. A 2nd set of eyes is a great investment!

[Speedy]

I actually just bought a horse 3 days ago. I paid full price (well, ok, the seller gave me a paltry $500 off so that I could tell my husband that I at least made an attempt to negotiate, and we had a good laugh about it, but I don't think that's what the OP meant!).

As a buyer, I won't look at horses that aren't in my price range and I won't waste anyone's time. If I come to try it, you know, as the seller, that I can afford it and that I'm in the market/ not a tire kicker. This particular seller knows that and offered me a nice prospect, based on what she knows my strengths/weaknesses/desires to be. Because she is as honest as the day is long and her horses tend to move at or around asking, I feel that I am paying what is fair when I work with her.

[Movin Artfully]

Here's what I think :)

- if the price is fair, pay it.

- if the price is below fair, pay it and count yourself lucky.

- if the price is above fair, offer a fair price.



This is the best advice I've seen. What a loaded question! You are going to get a different answer from every COTH post depending on what the person's affiliation is: breeder, trainer, personal owner, buyer, seller etc.

Here is my perspective as both buyer and seller.

As a seller- I do not negotiate. I know what my horse is worth and am happy to keep anything that I have as it increases in value. Regardless of the economy- if you truly have a prize for sale...it will sell at your price. This applies only to the truly broke, show proven, and/or school masters.

As a buyer- I look only at young/unproven prospects, which is a totally different ball game. There are SO many of these on the market- I am looking for high quality and bargain prices. I routinely make fair (sometimes quite low) offers- which if nothing else gives the seller an out if they cannot find a buyer at their asking price. I have had sellers contact me 6+ months later, happy to accept my offer.

I think it is appropriate for buyers to email request conformation shots and videos on all horses. A truly motivated seller should already have these ready and a buyer should never feel guilty for asking. I do not feel that prospective buyers should engage in phone conversations or test rides unless they 1) are willing to pay asking price if it is the perfect fit for them or 2) first ask about negotiation if they are not prepared to pay full asking price.

Bottom line: it's completely supply and demand driven.