Curious about AHS naming rules

[Dressurfan]

Hi,
Does anyone know the rules for naming a foal to be registered AHS out of a VhW mare by a KWPN but AHS and VhW approved stallion? The stallion I have in mind is Rousseau. I see that two of his VhW offspring have names beginning with F (Fiorano and Fürst Rousseau). Is there a reason their names begin with F? So what i'm really asking is: What letter would this foal's name start with. Thanks!

[Touchstone Farm]

Hanoverians are usually named with the beginning letter of the stallion's name. In the case you described, it would be an "R".

I don't quite get the reasoning behind the Dutch naming "tradition." I believe it goes up the alphabet in order for each year. But really who cares one way or another about a year? I'd rather be able to follow the line better through the naming...than what year the stallion was born. Anyone know why that is? I suppose the tradition started somehow.

[Dressurfan]

Yes, I know hanoverians are usually named with the same first letter as their sire, but then why are Rousseau's German hanoverian offspring named with F's? There are exceptions to the rules such as some W horses are being named with F's. So im hoping someone can enlighten us on the finer points of the rules.
I agree with you: it's way more interessting to have a clue as to the horse's bloodlines from their name than just the year of their birth like the dutch naming system.

[DownYonder]

Rousseau's sire line goes back to the TB stallion Furioso xx (Rousseau - Ferro - Ulft - Le Mexico - Mexico - Furioso xx). That is why his German foals have names that start with "F".

If Ulft, Le Mexico, and Mexico had been registered in Germany as foals, they would also have had "F" names.

[bloomingtonfarm]

As a KWPN breeder it has been useful and interesting to be able to easily date the age of a stallion or a mare or a competitive gelding just by his name but it could still be misleading if the name was change.

But nothing being perfect, you have to look at the breeding really to get a real sense of what bloodline you have.

As for the Hanoverians, if we take Stakkato for example. Don’t you think he should be a 'G' line if we want a real insight of what this stallion is made from? Well, I mean his sire is from the S line, Semper Idem but if you care to look, his bloodline indicates more of this ‘G’ line characteristic as he has Goldschlager I three times through Gotthard twice and only once Semper Idem.

Another thing that I appreciate from the KWPN is that they put more emphasis on the mare line than the sire line. You will often find good mare line bearing the same ‘end’ such as the ‘loma’ line, ‘ anta’ line etc. As we all know, the mare is more important than the stallion.

It is not that I want to start an argument here, every registry has to start somewhere and it doesn’t really matter because in any case you have to look further.

[andy.smaga]

The letter that refer to the stallion line is not very clear, as many examples can demonstrate.
The letter that refer to the year the horse is born is very straightforward and because we don't change the name of our horses in Europe, it is easily understandable.
The Selle Français initiated this system and some other SB followed, but with a different starting letter. (for the same year a SF will have a different starting letter than a KWPN, for example...)

[Dressurfan]

Thank you DownYonder, that is exactly the info I was looking for. Did you know that off the top of your head? I am impressed. Do you by chance have a link to somewhere in a rulebook where it discusses such instances?

[Home Again Farm]

I would call the AHS office and ask. I have Rousseau due soon from my AHS mare and was planning on an R name.

[Touchstone Farm]

Home Again Farm -- Yes, the only Hanoverian foals I'm aware of start with an "R."

Hey, I wasn't denigrating the Dutch for their naming convention. Just curious how it started and what its purpose was for the year being the important point for naming. I like the KWPN for their strict standards, and if I wasn't so familiar and interested in Hanoverians, I'd consider the KWPN when breeding. Hope that clears things up for some of you.

Edited to add: It goes to show that no naming convention is going to have all the answers or cover all the possibilities. And if I remember correctly, don't the Westfalens hold the mares in such high esteem that they use the first letter of the mare's name to name the foals?

[mzm farm]

I do not know about the Westf., but it is true for the Traks.
Foals are named with Mom's first letter.

[andy.smaga]

I have no problem with the way registries choose to name the foals.
If the number of foundation stallions (or mare) didn't exceed 26, then it is the best system.:D

[DownYonder]

Thank you DownYonder, that is exactly the info I was looking for. Did you know that off the top of your head? I am impressed. Do you by chance have a link to somewhere in a rulebook where it discusses such instances?

Yes, I knew that Rousseau descends from Furioso xx, and I also knew that the Hanoverian naming conventions follow the sire line. It appears, though, that AHS has a little bit different interpretation on this than the Verband. From the AHS directory: "The foal's name must begin with the first letter of the sire's registered name." There is an exception to this - offspring of "W" line stallions that go back to Feiner Karl and Ferdinand are given "F" names (apparently to distinguish them from the Furioso descendants). At any rate, it does sound as though AHS will require Rousseau foals to have "R" names. Best bet, though, is to call the office and ask.

Quite honestly, I rather like the way the Trakehners handle naming conventions. EVERY foal - colts as well as fillies - are named after the dam. Those folks are SERIOUS about recognizing their mare lines.

[alexandra]

Actually the German Hanoverian Verband published the naming conventions for some of the "new" stallions from lines that are not hanoverian. I do not know in which issue of Der Hannoveraner, but I remember seing it not too long ago.

We in Germany do not name the foals officially as the registry does not store foal names.

[Touchstone Farm]

mzm farm -- you're right. It's the Trakehners, not the Westfalens. Too much studying yesterday!

[DownYonder]

Actually the German Hanoverian Verband published the naming conventions for some of the "new" stallions from lines that are not hanoverian. I do not know in which issue of Der Hannoveraner, but I remember seing it not too long ago.

We in Germany do not name the foals officially as the registry does not store foal names.

Alexandra - I am curious about this. If foals are not named "officially" because the registry does not store foal names, then why does it have naming conventions? :confused:

[alexandra]

Easy: for the mares at their inspection (they need to be entered into the mare book with a name - unless it is on of the pre stud books) and for the stallions after licensing.
The german hanoverian breeding registry does not care about names of geldings at all. Each foal is obviously in the database with its unique lifenumber, but for the colts as long as the are not licensed they do not appear with a name.

(Maybe when the geldings are registered for showing with the german national branch of FEI where they have a name the Verband makes a connection as they work together with their databases, but I am not sure about that.)

I have e.g. a mare that is entered into the hanoverian mare book as Flaminia, but since that name was taken and she would have received a number by the FN behind that I had her entered with the FN as Flaminya. So she has two names in the FN database. A breedname and a showname. The database provides these two fields (an additional field for breedname). The key in the database is the unique and unchangable lifenumber.
The showname can be changed for a fee, but the breedname with the hanoverian registry will always stay the same.
I am not 100% sure about foal names, but to my knowledge no WB registry in Germany registers names of foals in their database.

[EllenAspen]

We have two foals we got registered Hanoverian. Their sires SHOW name is All the Gold...that is how everyone knows him. But, his registered Hanoverian name is Grand (he is by Gepard). For Hanoverian purposes, we had to name our colts with names that started with a "G".

But, for USEF show purposes, we have other names for our colts...just as All the Gold has two names. Actually, our colts have three names...Hanoverian, show, and what we call them around the barn...

We were confused too when we went for our first inspection...we had "A" names picked out...

Hope this helps...