Those of you who ride Jumpers & Dressage...

[tidy rabbit]

How do you find that place between getting your heels down and a half seat without throwing your horse onto the forehand? Is it possible? Or do you ride in a deeper seat?

[raave05]

if you are riding your half seat correctly then you should remain over your horse's center of gravity, and thus shouldn't be influencing him to go onto his forehand. only if you are in front of your horse's movement will you be influencing him to fall onto his forehand.

just look at eventers (at least the good ones)...they gallop big fences in half seats all the time, and their horses are balanced.

[JumpWithPanache]

I ride in a deeper seat, for the most part. I like getting my horse in front of me and adjustable. She goes around quite nicely in a hunter half seat as needed, but finds more comfort and direction when I sit on her. I flat mine like a dressage horse, but with a lot of stretchy work thrown in. This seems to give her trot and canter work a very stretchy but uphill charachter that has served us well in the hacks despite the fact that she is not a daisy cutter.

[PlantersPunch]

I would argue that keeping your horse on their hind end has a lot more to do with legging them up into the bridle than sitting on their back. While I see the need to sit deep to do some of the collected work for dressage, I don't agree with the need to sit on them to keep them from falling onto their forehand.

Does that make sense?

[XenophonKnows]

With thought towards getting a USHJA Instructor Certification I am rereading George Morris' book The American Jumping Style. Just a few pages in are several pages of photos of different riders in 3 point (Full seat) a 2 point (Half seat) contact positions. He discusses riding/jumping with and behind the horses motion. He talks about different types of horses needing different types of rides. For example, a heavier European type of horse needing more of a full seat (perhaps longer reined) ride as opposed to a TB or other type of "hot, sensitive" horse that would require a more "with the motion, light seat contact" type of ride.

I have heavier types of jumpers I ride that I very much sit to. In fact, I sit the strides between fences in combinations. I also ride more sensitive horses that are not happy with a firm/heavy/deep seat contact, and require that I incline my upper body more forward. But my seat bones are always able to 'stay attached' to the horses back when needed, even on the sensitive horses.

Give the horse the ride he needs.

[Donkey]

I hear ya! As an eventer I find it to be one of the most challenging things as a rider to switch between jumping and galloping length stirrups and dressage length stirrups and seat. When I was purely a jumper rider it was a lot easier as the focus was on improving for the purpose of jumping and eq and not multiple disiplines. i recommend focusing on the one that you get more and then figure out what and why it is different for the other situation, especially figure out if you are using your aids incorrectly or overusing them for the one that you are having more success with. My guess (a big leap considering no info) would be that you are relying on your seat and hands too much to rock your horse back and that you need to use your upper body and a stonger leg (more effective half halt) to get the same result in a half seat. Which proabably comes down to rider conditioning - two point w/out stirrups is your best friend.

[Kimberlee]

Put more weight in your heels in the shorter stirrup length. And teach the horse more self-carriage. Then it won't matter "where" you are the horse will stay more balanced and independant of your weight. Your shoulders should not be so far forward in a two-point position as to off-balance your horse onto the forehand. GM books are always great to learn more about position. When I switch back and forth, I just refocus my weight and really strech down through my heels. It is much harder for me to go back to the dressage, than to go from dressage to jump seat/two-point.

[Sebastian]

Ditto most of the above...

One thing I have found is that it's VERY important to keep your hips under you. Since Eventing, I probably DO ride with a bit more "seat" now when jumping, but my old Jumper Trainer was always after us to keep our hips to the front of the saddle. It's really a matter of keeping your "core" engaged, your leg ON and a soft BUT connected elbow -- which is how you push them up into the bridle.

Hope this helps. :D
Seb

[dags]

I have a bum knee that has always made sitting the canter difficult for me. Toss in a sensitive TB and I mastered the half-seat as a junior. Started teaching and realized that a lot of people struggle with effective aids in the half-seat, or at least, aids that are as effective as when they are full seat.

A common factor tends to be the reins are too long, shorten them up a good deal for the half-seat, so they float well forward of the withers yet stay below the crest. Also, work in variations of the half seat- if you need more driving aids, think "soften" in your knees, drop into your heels, and bring the upper body back some, so that your seat ends up closer to the saddle, though still not touching. Kind of like "hovering" over his hind end.

A typical exercise I use is to plant the hands on the neck- really anchor the knuckles in the flesh so horsey can't pull them forward- keep your weight more back (over your heels) than forward, and put leg on until horse is forced into the bit. If he hits the bit and softens, yay! Relax your fingers and keep the hindend engaged with your leg, but don't release or move your hand, he can stay right there. Nice and up and in front of you without your toosh ever touching the saddle. If he hits the bit and resists, leg him up and let him pull against his own neck till he gets tired of it. When he softens relax as described above.

The trick is that he's fighting his own neck - and not your hand - when he resists in his jaw, and the neck moves with the rhythm of the gait so you know your hand is still following, even though it has set an uncomprimising barrier. Some horses (the duller ones) will need a heck of a lot of spur before they give, but when they get it they will literally pop up in front of you and offer you a ridiculously manuverable hind end. When they really get it you can communicate balance with just a touch of leg and a squeeze of your fingers :)

[Tuesday's Child]

dags - thanks for posting that exercise. I'm currently teaching my horse to go on the bit, and it's requiring more seat than I'd ideally like. I will definitley be trying that out!

[yellowbritches]

There is a difference between sitting light in the tack with your heels down and galloping on, and flinging yourself past your horse's center of gravity and knocking them to their forehand. I think everybody's position is a little different (Philip Dutton has a very unique galloping position but he is also quite tall in the upper body). you might just have to play with your position and see where you need to be to keep them up and light in front, but still be light in the tack. However, obviously you also need to continue using your aids properly and riding the horse into a following contact.

Wish I could give more insight, but I think I have figured it out just by riding a lot of horses both in real dressage work and over fences (and both over fences in show jumping and on cross country). Might just be one of those things you have to figure out through experience.

[tidy rabbit]

I think I need to add more detail to my question...

So if you're doing dressage canter work and you step into your outside stirrup to get the down transition to trot, it throws the horse's balance off and that's why you get the trot step.

So if you're doing what I normally do in my half seat, which is to put nearly all my weight into my feet, I am helping my horse to put his weight on the forehand. So how do I find that place in-between? That place where I'm helping him come through and lift his forehand off the ground while still being in good position to find the jump?

Likewise if I'm going from a nice extended trot to a walk, and I push my weight into my stirrups my horse will crash to his forehand and most likely stumble.

Additionally the horse I'm discussing here is 4 and doesn't really have much "self carriage" yet. My older horse is much stronger and carries himself with more ease.

So I'm wondering... how do you keep that elevation while still having weight in the irons?

[Sebastian]

So I'm wondering... how do you keep that elevation while still having weight in the irons?

Tighten your core (stomach muscles) and keep your shoulders back and chest out. And, your leg ON.

Seb :)

[dags]

Your heels should actually fall right around, or likely right behind, the horses center of gravity, which is right around the girth area, so stepping into the heel shouldn't tip them onto the forehand. Additionally, the weight shouldn't be entirely in your feet, but distributed equally along you leg muscles and primarly in your inner/top theigh. Riding dressage, with its comfy full seat that doesn't really require leg to stay with the movements, and actually prefers the leg to be free to move for cues, may mean the constant support of your entire body with your leg muscles feels a bit foreign. But, as my equitation trainer used to harp on endlessly, in the half seat she should be able to rip the stirrups out from under me with zero change in position. Maybe some stirrupless work in the two-point would help? It is absolutely the most horrid thing ever, but it works.

[mvp]

You really want your jumping horse to go forward from either your seat or your leg.

Mine actually has three separate buttons for "go" that I can use in any combination to get gradual or quick acceleration. One is my inclining my shoulders forward (core still straight and strong). One is closing my leg. One is (from the half seat) almost sitting for part of a stride. I think about grazing the saddle or scooping him up with my sitting bones for part of the canter stride. But unless I have asked him to explode away from my aids, he ought to stay in balance.

So here's what I'd try to teach you and your horse to go in balance from either your seat or your leg, and how to make them separate. Post at the canter, except spend two or three strides up and two or three down. If he starts to fall forward in the up phase, stay up leg him into the bridle until he softens and rocks back again.

Then sit and leave him alone. He's replaying the tape in his head about what just happened, and what he did to make you sit where your (soft) seat and vertical body don't invite him to lose his balance again-- the same balance you just taught him he had to hold himself regardless of your position.

If he scoots away from your seat while you are sitting, on the other hand, the "reward" for slowing down and balancing there is a few strides in the two-point (same balance) while you pet his neck at least once.

Can you picture what I mean?

[dags]

dags - thanks for posting that exercise. I'm currently teaching my horse to go on the bit, and it's requiring more seat than I'd ideally like. I will definitley be trying that out!
Your welcome! The key is to never pull back, set the hand with fair contact, and as they lighten up in front shorten the rein to adjust, but do not pull back to take up the slack. Its really good to have somene on the ground for this one because it can take stupid amounts of leg, and its nice to have someone down ther saying, "nope, still not engaged. More leg" because some will be tempted to go for more hand. It worked awsome on our giant, lazy beast that essentially fell apart unless you were driving with everything you had, and there's just no time for that between jumper fences. The nice thing about the excercise is thay when it is done correctly the point at which it has finally worked is extremely obvious. Ours would literally leap up in front, and the hand would soften and we'd let him carry himself for a bit. Then we'd test- when the leg is on and the hand is squeezed does he balance, or does he resist? If he accepts the balance we assist in that endeavor, softly and with subtle shifts in weight. If he resists it's back into the circle of buried hand and huge spur.

He was, of course, built like a limousine :D

[Horseymama]

Just because you are asking for a downward transition and dropping into your heel doesn't mean you should drop the support in your leg. Try posting the canter as an exercise. This helps activate the horse's hind end. First post every stride and make sure he feels as uphill and activated on the "up" of your post as he does on the "down." Then sit two strides, up in two-point two strides, and try to keep him uphill. Then try three strides sitting, three strides up out of the saddle, all the while concentrating on keeping your leg on and him moving off of his hind end, even when you are in two-point.

I find riding both disciplines is great cross-training for your muscles!

[boosma47]

Tighten your core (stomach muscles) and keep your shoulders back and chest out. And, your leg ON.

Seb :)

Thoroughly agree with this.

Always remember, your horse stays balanced when you stay balanced, whether you are in 2 point, 1/2 seat, light seat or full seat. It is your whole body that influences the whole horse.

Practice 1/2 seat to standing straight up in your stirrups, bringing your hips forward (hold mane if necessary). Go back to 1/2 seat, then to full seat. Feel if your horse can maintain his balance while you do this. If he can't, you need to stay over his center of gravity.

It is all in the flexibility of your hips that allows your horse stay in front of your leg and off his forehand.