"The Relativity Of Soundness" - Between Rounds with Anne Gribbons

[katnetzler]

As a service to our online equine community, the Chronicle (http://www.chronofhorse.com) is pleased to offer our weekly Between Rounds columns for free on the COTH Forums.

The Relativity Of Soundness
March 6, 2009 Issue

Our columnist believes that technology shouldn’t be the only tool employed in the decision to purchase a horse.

In January, I read the fabulous story “Graf George—What I Remember” (Jan. 30, p. 33) (http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=20508042848022&ShowArticle_ID=1332901090743842), written by Dr. Paul McClellan, the long-time treating veterinarian for all of the horses belonging to Dick and Jane Brown and ridden by Guenter Seidel.

Having just helped Graf George, Guenter’s first Olympic mount, to move from this earth to greener pastures, Dr. McClellan tells us about the long and fascinating relationship he had with this horse. It’s a beautiful and also a realistic and fulfilling tale about taking risks and having faith and passion overcome real and imaginary obstacles.

Particularly interesting to me is the story of George’s physical state at the time of purchase and during his career.

Graf George, or just “George” as he’s referred to in the story, had already put on considerable mileage when he and Guenter met. He had been to one Olympic Games with his original trainer, Michael Poulin, and then worked with another rider in between.

Dr. McClellan described in touching terms the excitement and happy anticipation obvious in Dick and Jane when they presented him with their new hopeful acquisition. The veterinarian started by examining George’s feet and found them pleasing.

Unfortunately, anything above the hoof had “issues” galore, such as ringbone, enlarged suspensories and an unusual knot on the side of his right knee. But Dr. McClellan wasn’t discouraged, because he had already noticed the boldness, determination and brilliance in the eyes of this gray gelding, and he knew the horse had the will to overcome the odds against him of going to another Olympics.

The road there was by no means easy, and maintenance was a priority. Obviously, the magic worked, because George and Guenter qualified to participate in the 1996 Olympic selection trials in Gladstone, N.J. In the middle of those trials, George was shipped off to New Bolton Center (Pa.) with a severe case of colic. He didn’t have surgery, and in the end he made the Atlanta team, but it was a close call, and the most perfect set of legs would have been of no value if his digestive system hadn’t responded to treatment.

Disappointing Results

So many times when I’m involved in a pre-purchase exam at either end of the spectrum of sellers or buyers, it becomes obvious to me how futile and sometimes frustrating those events are.

We are really fooling ourselves if we think a “clean” vetting will lead to a career free of physical problems or even guarantee that the horse will live to see another day. What Dr. McClellan saw in George when he looked at him was not his weaknesses, but, instead, his potential strengths. And that aspect is often overlooked or pushed into the background when we try to protect ourselves from future problems.

Many years ago, when I first started buying horses from Europe, I would ask the seller for X-rays, and sometimes the reaction was violent.

In particular, the breeders who had lived with the young horse for years and seen him every day since his birth would balk at this requirement. They took it as a personal insult, and on several occasions the issue of X-rays would put a stop to the sale.

Although I argued all the reasons for my point of view, I knew in my heart that they were not wrong. For years, I found myself turning down perfectly sound horses—who remained sound for long careers— because of “bad” navicular pictures.

At that time, many American veterinarians were used to examining the images of Thoroughbred feet and were not familiar with the warmblood “look,” and therefore they were cautious. Even today, however, I find that when a potential buyer gets cold feet and wants to drop the ball, it’s always the navicular bones that get blamed.

How many times have we gone over an ailing horse with a fine-tooth comb and not been able to find what’s wrong, or found it only when it’s too late to fix the problem? And sometimes not at all.

Quite often those are just the same horses who pass their pre-purchase exam with flying colors. After that they are no good to anybody.

Some horses are what I call “excuse horses,” never really fit for action because they have a new little problem every day. They are too light for heavy work and too heavy for light work. No radiographs will protect you against that kind of horse, because they are allergic to effort and have “work avoidance” down to an art form.

The Heart Of The Matter

It’s the other kind of horse that makes the grade and wins your heart, the George kind of horse who overcomes his physical shortcomings and belies all of our dire predictions.

I have been privileged to meet several of those noble animals, and every one of them makes me grateful for the experience.

My very first Grand Prix horse was one of those special creatures. His name was Tappan Zee; he was a Thoroughbred by Royal Charger, and he had two huge bowed tendons from racing to win. Not only did he change careers, allow me to train him to Grand Prix, get to selection trials at Gladstone, earn a USDF gold medal and allow me to enjoy numerous wonderful events on his back, he also did it unconditionally.

At 19, Tappan fell in his stall during the night and broke his pelvis. We found him in the early morning, fighting to get up. His efforts had steamed up the windows, and he was soaking wet. While waiting for the veterinarian, he finally put his head in my lap and died.

I was too young and inexperienced then to know what a rare, brave and generous animal I was losing, but I know it well today.

We have had school horses with impossible conformation, legs like corkscrews, and I would hate to know what radiographs might have revealed. They made up for all of that with a never-failing work ethic and a will to succeed. For years and years they did their jobs and were never lame or cranky.

In the meantime, we had some show horses with near-perfect conformation, wonderful potential and all of the care and maintenance in the world, who could never get through the day without complaints.

I understand what Dr. McClellan saw in George’s eyes, which overcame whatever he observed in his body. That keen look of eagles and the body language that spells pride and energy should mean as much to us as images of bone and conformational flaws. In the case of George, and several horses of his elk that I’ve met, the spirit and will (and sometimes a high pain threshold) combine to overcome the science.

Today the technology is so advanced that every deviation from the “norm” can be detected with radiographs, ultrasound and blood tests, and you can pick a horse apart before he even takes a step out of the barn. These tests often override the original purpose of searching for that right horse.

I have seen people walk away from the equine that would have fit right into their picture of what they wanted because of a shadow on cellophane that may have been an artifact.

Taking risks is almost disallowed in our American society. Everything must be so “safe” that our instincts are rubbed out in the name of proper procedure.

Well, the fact of the matter is that life itself is a dangerous business, and chances are pretty great you will die from it. Just like people, some horses can rise above it all and beat the odds. If you think you can see that quality in a horse, and dare to bet on him, you may not end up at the Olympics, but you could be in for the ride of your life.

Anne Gribbons

Anne Gribbons moved to the United States from Sweden in 1972 and has trained more than a dozen horses to Grand Prix. She rode on the 1986 World Championships dressage team and earned a team silver medal at the 1995 Pan American Games. An O-rated dressage judge based in Chuluota, Fla., Gribbons serves as co-vice chairman of the U.S. Equestrian Federation Dressage Committee. She started contributing to Between Rounds in 1995.

[canyonoak]

one word: lawsuit

The American Way

[Peg]

Why would a lawsuit happen unless everything was not disclosed? Everyday is a crapshoot. You work hard to condition the horse properly and provide a safe environment, but still things happen. Life happens! :)An excellent article. Thanks for sharing. Peg

[ToN Farm]

That was one of the best articles I've read in a long while. I agree with everything she's written. I've noticed that most people looking for a horse do not want to consider an older horse, because they want their horse to last for many, many years and figure that with the older horse, they have only a few good years to enjoy him.

[Foxhound]

I agree as well. Two years ago I bought a (then) 17 year old horse. I did not do radiographs. He was working consistently and sound, and we could not get him to show unsoundness on the flexions.
Last year he had what turned out to be a stone bruise, but I had the vet x-ray the foot just to be sure. For the heck of it, I had him x-ray the other front foot as well. I fully expected to see changes. Lo and behold, both front feet and fetlocks were very clean.
The horse is now 19, and shows no sign of slowing down. He'll probably be ridden well into his 20's.

[EqTrainer]

I agree w/this 100%. It's a big reason I have stopped, for the most part, selling horses.

[Mozart]

Totally agree with the article as well. canyonoak has a point regarding the effect of a litigious society but I also think some of the reason for the trend toward ever increasing pre-purchase ordeals is the influx of "new owners". People getting into sport horses seem to want everything, a young horse, big, lots of show miles, good temperament, spotless pre-purchase...and cheap.

I have noticed that parents almost never want to buy older horses for their kids anymore, they want something they can re-sell in a few years and maintain or increase their "investment". Horses and investment are words that just do not belong in the same sentence.

People bemoan the lack of schoolmasters but exactly how many people are prepared to take on older horses with maintenance issues.

[magnolia73]

I took a risk and bought a horse who's price had been dropped because of Xrays. Yeah, she'll need maintenance sooner rather than later. But for a very cheap price, I got a lovely, rideable, sweet and talented mare. At low price points, something will be compromised. So many people compromise on anything but soundness and end up with unrideable horses anyway.

Horses and investment are words that just do not belong in the same sentence.

LOL, my dad told me that years ago.

I figure, if I need to retire my Niki early, at least I have a friendly, likeable pretty mare to stick in a pasture.

[crthunder]

My friend just prepurchased a young mare and chose not to buy her after they found an OCD, but not entirely because of the OCD... The very (I stress VERY) poor attitude and distasteful dealings with the owners on the day of the PPE made her decide to walk away. Everything was kosher until then... and now there may be a lawsuit because of the seller's continued harassement of her over the past week over the PPE.

When I bought my first horse, he did not flex clean on one leg (turned out he trotted out of the slight uneveness) and my vet said to take xrays JIC, but otherwise he looked fantastic. Probably just a little "bleh" from the long trailer-in. BUT the owner dropped the price for me right there, and said he would pick him up the next day at no cost to me if the xrays were not clean.

I have no qualms about going reasonable with the number of xrays,especially with a good history, but it's the sellers that make the difference in the end for me!

Becky

[Dune]

GREAT article!!:yes: I've had horses at both ends of the spectrum (and some in between;)). The wonderful, never lame PSG horse who when vet checked the buyers' vet said, "I don't understand how this horse is still standing, let alone doing his job." The hot-house flower who passed his $1000.00 vet check with flying colors who was "work allergic" with a myriad of problems...never the same leg or area which was just a treat. :rolleyes: BUT, then there was the young TB that a vet did find something in the x-rays which he felt compelled to tell me about but then said I should buy the horse anyway (seller's vet....I know, I know)....never should've bought that one. :no: Vet covered his butt but made sure the sale went through, horse developed intermittent issues later. It's tough to know for sure... The ones with that "heart" though, too bad there's not a vet check for that, just a "gut check". :cool:

[esdressage]

Fabulous article.

The funny thing is, agreeing with what ToN Farm said, that if people were to buy an older horse they'd probably be in better shape anyway. An older horse that has had a career and is sound has proven he can hold up. If he's still happy and ready to go every morning, he's also proven his heart and desire. Instead, people want the young horse with the miles… hmmm, not logical. That horse hasn't proven himself over time and may have been worked with too much, too young to get the record people are dying to see to buy him.

Truth is, finding a horse with no problems at all is virtually impossible. I remember horse shopping when I was a kid and my instructor would take us to see horses out of our budget. She said that if we found one we wanted, and vetted him/her thoroughly enough, we'd find our negotiation points. There's no perfect horse by the numbers; aside from obvious, limiting physical issues, it's truly what's in their hearts and minds that makes a good horse great.

[Eclectic Horseman]

What an excellent article. The truth is that "horses can't read x-rays."

Instead of veterinary diagnostic tools, the risk averse purchaser should rely much more on common sense. To me, the fact that a horse is currently doing what the purchaser wants him for is a much better predictor of soundness. The best possible situation is when the purchaser has seen, or knows someone else who has seen, the horse over an extended period.

A purchaser should be wary, of course, of horses that have been "layed up" for any reason for any significant period of time or those that have not been doing what the purchaser wants to do with him. Young horses are a risk on many different levels--that's why they are less expensive, not more.

When you've been around a while, you collect all sorts of stories about horses that couldn't pass a prepurchase, but then finally succumbed to something else that was not revealed by the pre-purchase examination.

[mvp]

I don't think that people are turning down imperfect horses for the "bad" reasons Gribbons and others have suggested.

It's not that Americans just want a damned guarantee for everything.

It's also not that they will back that up with a lawsuit that will cost them plenty to pursue.

It's that they know they will spend lots of money, time, effort and love on any horse they buy. Good horsemen know that perfect conformation and great, long careers don't correlate, but it makes no sense to play an odds game when it's so expensive to do so.

I know sellers want deals to work, and that it's frustrating to be subjected to the standards of fussy would-be owners. Before you blame them for being risk-averse or just ignorant, recognize that they will end up losing and regretting their mistake of not being conservative in their PPEs if they don't.

The soundest horse I ever bought had no PPE aside from the flexion tests my friend and I did on her in the yard. Her game, business-like look, her survival on the track and then in this guy's rather poor field also figured into my evaluation of her. She taught me the important lesson described in this article, but I had to see the horse for myself to make the call. I'm happy because now I *know* that I can see that "sound look" in a horse's demeanor and to factor it into any PPE.

[Bellfleur]

Yes but what are you supposed to do when you have one set of pictures and 5 vets (2 FEI) say no problem "not clinically significant in warmbloods" to quote one vet and 2 vets go I would not ever touch the horse and one vet says ok maybe he will develop a problem that will require maintenance years from now?

All the vets are fairly well know, all are looking at the same x-rays so what are they seeing that is so flipping different. I am not sure how the interpretation of the x-rays can vary so widely??

The horse in questions passed one of the toughest flexion tests I have ever seen, him passed the thermography, ever other joint in his body was perfect. He is only coming 4 in June and has never taken a lame step in his life nor suffered any major injuries. He has been in steady work for 8 months now and still is fine.

What should I do with this gelding? Still attempt to sell him? Donate him to a college program or a research program?

[mvp]

Not in literal mathematical terms, but in the sense of combining many sources of data.

Take all the data you have so far-- including the rest of the horse's body and mind.

Take all the DVM opinions you have so far.

Take the soundness history of this horse.

Check the histories of his older siblings or half-siblings. Do these horses seem to hold up?

Take interpretations of digital radiographs of warmbloods with a big grain of salt-- both are relatively new.

Last, decide just how treatable the potential condition is, and how much you maintenance you are willing to do.

Does this sound obvious, too hard, too vague to be useful? I think it is probably a general scheme for using PPE information

[freestyle2music]

one word: lawsuit

The American Way

That's also what I heard from manyyyyyyyyyyyyy insiders.

But I would add "lack of real knowledge"

AG is completely right in her article. I have even seen many very good horses (with remarks on their X-rays) sold to the UK, Japan, Scandinavia etc... and they lived happily ever after and made it to the Olympics safe and sound.

Theo

[atlatl]

Ultimately, it is the buyer's money and their decision. If the seller doesn't like the outcome of the PPE and the decision that the buyer makes; oh well.

I know how much risk I am willing to assume for the money that I'm willing to spend on a horse. It is my decision to make. I recently passed on a 4 year old that the PPE put at a grade one lameness on one hind leg. Given the price and the fact that I'm already paying board on one gimpy gelding, I passed. Yes, it may have been something he outgrows but given my situation I was not willing to take that risk. Yes, I realize that I may have passed on a great horse and that's a risk I was willing to take. The bottom line is that it was my decision and I'm willing to live with it.

If buyers in the US suffer from a "lack of real knowledge", it is equally fair to say that sellers frequently suffer from a lack of any knowledge of the buyer's situation and perspective.

I find it very hard to believe that the number of lawsuits involving purchases of horses is anything close to significant. Yeah, there are a couple of high profile ones but it's the exception and not the rule.

[atlatl]

Not in literal mathematical terms, but in the sense of combining many sources of data.

Take all the data you have so far-- including the rest of the horse's body and mind.

...

Does this sound obvious, too hard, too vague to be useful? I think it is probably a general scheme for using PPE information

I think the problem with what you propose is that you don't have "data"; you have a bunch of anecdotes. It still all comes down to risk management for the buyer.

[EquusMagnificus]

Good horsemen know that perfect conformation and great, long careers don't correlate, but it makes no sense to play an odds game when it's so expensive to do so.

In fact, I think it is related. What is the problem is our conception of conformation.

Conformation is often being viewed as another word for "pretty" while TRUE FUNCTIONAL conformation is NOT necessarily pretty!

Heck, have you seen a conformation shot of Baloubet du Rouet? He's NOT a pretty horse! Yet, he is at the top of the game. Apparently, his conformation is PERFECT for the job and he is SOUND. Otherwise, he would become too costly to keep at the top or he would simply be crippled.

Same with Salinero. Goodness, that's one ugly horse! :lol:

Perfect functional conformation is the key to success and that, no PPE will tell it. It is up to us, riders, breeders and buyers, to educate ourselves on the REAL definition of a good conformation. ;)

[RiverOaksFarm]

One of the best horses I ever owned went so lame during the flexions that I asked the vet to please stop, don't hurt him, I'm going to buy him anyhow. With some corrective shoeing he became sound again, and he never took another lame step, and went on to make it to FEI, and I wouldn't trade the time I had with that horse for the world.

[slc2]

I think that ignoring xrays and ultrasounds is just as wrong as interpreting them without any understanding or knowledge. Because xrays are often not read properly or not understood, does not mean their value is nil.

Exaggerating the importance of a flaw in a pleasure horse is just as counter productive as buying a lame horse after ignoring or not taking xrays.

And purchasing a horse for top sport that is unsound is not a mistake anyone really can afford.

NEITHER approach will always be guaranteed to work.

The BEST approach is to have a very knowledgeable person offer an educated opinion on xrays and ultrasounds, and have him or her examine videos, examine the animal, and check it over entirely.

I have bought several 'iffy' horses and had years and years of pleasure and joy with them, and learned tons until their conformation faults caught up with them, and you can SAY all you want about how much you learned, but it is tortue to put all that love and time and effort into it and have it jerked out from under you. It is one of the most heartbreaking things that can happen in the horse world.

But I frankly got sick of saying, 'oh, I've spent every day of my life for 5 or 10 years training this horse and now I can't enjoy the results, i have to take a big financial hit, and now I have to try to find some way to keep this horse or find him nothing less than a perfect new owner, and I may have to quit riding to afford to take care of this one'.

A person of my limited means can't just say, 'I'll just add on to my barn or board one more' when a horse has to be retired due to unsoundness. Today we see frightening results of what happens when a 'pet' lame horse no longer has a home - no one wants him. I've also spent a very long time watching people push unsuitable horses in inappropriate work and break them down...

it's not all about 'courage' and the wonderful kind horse doing whatever we wish despite crooked legs and faulty conformation - there is a point at which expecting an animal to do that becomes grotesquely unfair.

The issues mentioned in the article aren't really so simple. There are two sides to it, and no easy answers, except that xrays and evaluations are only as useful as the skill of the person doing them MAKES them.

[grayarabpony]

I think it's the best piece Anne Gribbons has written for the Chronicle.

I liked the fact that she included the "spectacular" (my quotes, not hers), almost-conformationally-perfect animals that aren't worth squat because they have zero try. I've heard about them; they cost as much money and heartache as a horse with an actual physical problem.

[Equa]

I have just paid for a lovely horse who vetted well, with a couple of minor things. It was heartening to read Anne Gribbon's piece at this time, because I now feel more comfortable about my not inconsiderable investment in this horse. He IS doing his job currently, and well, and he hasn't had any unexplained breaks in competing during rise rise through the ranks. I know someone else was looking at him prior to us, and passed him over for another, similar level horse, which made me a bit paranoid about what I didn't know.

[Ghazzu]

Yes but what are you supposed to do when you have one set of pictures and 5 vets (2 FEI) say no problem "not clinically significant in warmbloods" to quote one vet and 2 vets go I would not ever touch the horse and one vet says ok maybe he will develop a problem that will require maintenance years from now?

All the vets are fairly well know, all are looking at the same x-rays so what are they seeing that is so flipping different. I am not sure how the interpretation of the x-rays can vary so widely??

The horse in questions passed one of the toughest flexion tests I have ever seen, him passed the thermography, ever other joint in his body was perfect. He is only coming 4 in June and has never taken a lame step in his life nor suffered any major injuries. He has been in steady work for 8 months now and still is fine.


Well, as has been said above, and as my radiology professor used to say "animals walk on their legs, not on their radiographs".

Absent a fracture, a radiograph alone really isn't a "diagnosis". It's a tool for arriving at one.

For example, navicular changes on the radiographs of a sound horse aren't "navicular disease".

Lameness is not defined as a change in radiographic findings, it is an alteration in gait caused by pain.

Trouble is, people think/want the xray machine to be a crystal ball.

Understandable with the prices paid for many horses.

[slc2]

Part of the condemnation of xrays involves ignorance, of clients and in the past, mostly anyway i hope, vets, who looked at warmblood xrays and didn't understand what they saw. That doesn't mean some big honking spavin all down the front of both hocks shouldn't ring off little tiny alarm bells in your head.

[Perfect Pony]

I am sure we have all had horses that "passed" that ended up lame, and horses that "failed" that went on to be sound forever.

I too thought this was a great article. My current horse tried to die of colic while I had her on trial, and has an undiagnosed occasional right hind foot drag (not a vet anywhere can find a damn thing wrong with her).

She was released from the clinic and I wrote a check for her without a PPE, she was just special and I knew it. More than 2 years later I am thankful every day to have her.

[Missy's Mom]

[QUOTE=crthunder;3928849]My friend just prepurchased a young mare and chose not to buy her after they found an OCD, but not entirely because of the OCD... The very (I stress VERY) poor attitude and distasteful dealings with the owners on the day of the PPE made her decide to walk away. Everything was kosher until then... and now there may be a lawsuit because of the seller's continued harassement of her over the past week over the PPE.

What would be the problem with just telling the sellers that they were being obnoxious and she just preferred to not to do business with them? That puts the responsibility right where it belongs - on bad behavior, not on the vet or on the horse.

[flshgordon]

I don't think that people are turning down imperfect horses for the "bad" reasons Gribbons and others have suggested.

It's not that Americans just want a damned guarantee for everything.

It's also not that they will back that up with a lawsuit that will cost them plenty to pursue.

It's that they know they will spend lots of money, time, effort and love on any horse they buy. Good horsemen know that perfect conformation and great, long careers don't correlate, but it makes no sense to play an odds game when it's so expensive to do so..

I would politely disagree with all of the above! :yes:

many, many, MANY people are in fact looking for a guarantee, that is a fact. Most of these are first time buyers who do not understand the implication of one (or six) vet opinions.

The article is very accurate that there are still vets who do not understand how to read the xrays for a warmblood vs what they are used to in a TB or QH.

[Surviving the Dramas]

A really interesting article. Anne Gribbons was actually in NZ judging at our Nationals last weekend. I agreed wholeheartedly with her comments and scoring all weekend.

We have all heard/experienced horror stories about vet checks etc, but at the end of the day it is the horse that you are looking at, not his xrays.

We purposefully did not get a vet check for my schoolmaster. We knew our vet would probably talk us out of buying him. If I put a confo shot up most people would be horrified and claim he wouldn't make it past 1st level! He has successully competing at GP winning Regional Championships and National year end awards along the way etc etc. He has the heart of lion and the temperament of a pussy cat, and no one ever told him his legs were shot and none of his body matched up!
At 16 he is still going strong, still performing all of the GP movements (when his dumb rider gets her 1x's right) and is on some maintenance supplements, but at the end of the day we saw his spark, his talent, and his heart when we purchased him and he has yet to prove us wrong. He has been performing these movements since he first hit GP at 9. We recently had him xrayed and no arthritic changes were found at all in hocks/fetlocks. Needless to say my vet was astounded. We have had to deal with soundness issues occassionally, but these have 100% been attributed to poor shoeing, and now that has been sorted, he is back to full fitness and going strong.

In 5 years time or in 5 days time he may throw the towel in/break down/whatever and I will retire him with extreme humility to the retirement paddock to be fat, happy, and loved until he dies. I politely disagree with slc2 on this one. While I would be saddened to lose our hour a day together riding, you should know with ANY horse no matter its conformation/age etc that your ride today could be your last. Horses are not infallible and you play the hand you are dealt.

[slc2]

So, y'all are basically saying, it's a great plan to buy a horse with obvious conformation faults and lameness problems, to ignore xrays and not get pre purchase exams, because of Anne Gribbons' article?

Because it might work out in your favor? Somehow, I'm not so sure that's exactly the message she was hoping to convey. I don't think Gribbons would advocate buying unsuitable, unsound horses.

If that IS the message, that we should buy obviously sick injured or unsuitable horses for vigorous sport riding, that it isn't a message we should put into practice.

I think that it's a very emotional piece, written in the wake of Graf George's death, written with deep emotion, but not meant to be a methodology for buying horses, more about meeting setbacks with top veterinary care, etc.

The horses Gribbons deals with every day are a LOT closer to perfect than the horses I've owned in my life. With better conformation, they may heal better from injuries. Their injuries may be less severe. They may also get better veterinary care than most of us have access to. What she views as a 'corkscrew leg' is probably a pretty minor fault compared to what I see in my 'Econo-horses'.

Most amateurs, who typically buy no more than half a dozen horses in a lifetime, and have limited experience even with the sport we are trying to do, are not so badly served by getting prepurchase exams, getting xrays, and the whole rest.

Horses go lame, it's true. Horses get hurt, sometimes vets aren't right, sometimes people misjudge a horse, but my experience has been that in general, prepurchase exams and choosing conformation (not pretty halter class conformation, but using conformation) and balance is the way to go.

I DO see people pass on horses for things that will most likely never interfere with their use of the horse, all the time. These are often first time buyers. I've seen people turn down horses because 'His ears are too curved' or because of some tiny thing on an xray, when the horse was to be used for very light pleasure use. People DO go too far at times.

But OTHERS go too far to the other extreme, insisting a horse they're selling is fine when there are obvious problems, and the horse is not suitable for intended use.

THe bottom line for me is that extremes just don't work.

On the one side, for a person on a budget, there isn't any such thing as a 'perfect horse'. We are buying horses that have issues all the time. To some extent, we're taking a gamble. We have to balance as best we can, the prepurchase findings with an unknown amount of risk and not having a very accurate chrystal ball.

But does that mean the opposite extreme is true, that no one need get a prepurchase exam, or that we can ignore obvious problems that if a horse shows up lame for a prepurchase ride, we should grab it up? Because maybe it might work out?

No, I don't think that's good practical advice either.

[Surviving the Dramas]

No slick,

That wasn't what I got from Anne Gribbons article. What I got from it is that clean xrays and perfect conformation aren't the be all and end all. I agree with that. I would never discount xrays, but you have to be realistic about what purpose you are buying the horse for. If the horse IS suitable for what you are purchasing it for (which can be confirmed by how the horse is training/current level of soundness yaddaya) then why should a slightly off set of xrays make buyers walk away. I understand horses are an investment, and people don't want to get caught up in a booboo, but hell, it happens, even with the best xrays out there!

We sold a horse just over a year ago with a slightly offset knee. We dropped his price accordingly. We told everyone looking at him about the knee. We had a lady come look at him, ride him, love him and get him vetted. My vet did the vet check (purchaser had no problem with this) and my vet wrote a note in the vet cert mentioning the offset knee. She walked away from the purchase - despite the fact that she only wanted to do 1st level MAXIMUM and didn't want to jump. (WTF?!?!) His new owner recently competed him at NZ's Nationals and placed in a hugely competitive class, with not a single soundness worry...

[slc2]

That's a real good example of your point. That kind of stuff is a shame, but someone got a very nice horse because of the walk-away buyer's unrealistic view.

[Schiffon]

20 years ago, the x-ray era of vets not knowing how to interpret warmblood x-rays when they had looked at TBs their whole career began. Now we are at the beginning of the era where vets who have looked at film x-rays for their whole career are using those rules and applying them to digital x-rays that can see so much more, with so much more definition, blown up to multiple times greater than life size.

Since little research will be done to objectively correlate digital x-ray findings with clinical outcome, it will take years before vets individually and collectively get enough experience and "feel" for what findings in a clinicall normal horse are relevant and what are not.

I think in many cases, a "failed" ppe is simply a case of buyer's cold feet and the seller should just disregard it and go on and think twice before lowering the price if the problems noted are truly debatable.

In other cases, I think a buyer goes into a ppe fully intending to use the likelihood that something negative will be mentioned as a strategy to chip away at the price. I think this is unethical but just part of the game and if they are within the price range I was willing to bargain, I'll bargain, otherwise their case has no merit to me. To me, unless the x-ray findings are severe enough to warrent lowering the price to a pleasure horse price (eg from 5 figures to giveaway or 3 figures or low 4 figures) it makes no sense to me to lower the price for xrays. A lame horse is worth nothing, so if a minor x-ray finding scares you, it makes sense to not buy the horse but I think it is crazy to be willing to wager 18k that the horse will stay sound for the next 10 years but be unwilling to wager 20k.

[MsM]

I liked the article but...
I do take a bit of issue with the will and work habits overriding conformational/radiographic flaws.
I have a horse with conformational/radiographic flaws. I bought him in spite of them, knowing that lower-level dressage was a reasonable career choice for him. He has a FABULOUS work ethic. In fact, part of the difficulty is that he doesnt show problems until he cant hide it anymore. I literally (of course unknowingly) rode him with a broken bone in his leg. He was NQR but willing and the vet wanted to see... All his desire and my care have not been able to keep his problems from occuring. I have owned him for 12 years and he has probably been lame for four of them. :rolleyes:
If I was pickier about the PPE and radiographs I wouldnt have bought him. I don't regret buying him, but I know that I gambled on the impact of his issues and, to some degree, lost.

[Couture TB]

I always told people whatever you do don't tell my competition horses what their x rays say because they think they are as sound as can be!

[merrygoround]

"Life itself is a dangerous business, and chances are pretty great that you will die from it".

:lol::lol: Only chances are?, and here I"ve been thinking it's a sure thing. :yes:

Otherwise, great article. :)

[Arathita]

I also thought it was a great and timely article. Hopefully, it will be food for thought for many people.

[Hi Jump]

I wonder how many people would be riding if they had to meet the same stringent physical and performance standards horses are held to? Likely no one over 30 years old and only half under. As a breeder I can't imagine myself being held to comparable conformation and movement standards I expect of my breeding stallions and mares. Good thing we don't adhere to those standards ourselves or we wouldn't have the amazing master riders we do to watch and look up to.

Lisa, Synergy Sporthorses
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[njhunterrider]

What a wonderful article. I just had one of my sale horses returned to me after he did not 'pass' the PPE, or rather did not 'pass' the buyer's expectations of how a horse should 'pass' a PPE, perfectly. However, he did 'pass' (with flying colors) in all of the non-veterinary areas she was looking for. I have learned over the years that you cannot apply your expectations to anyone else, so while I feel my expectations are realistic and the buyer's were not, I'm sure the buyer sees it visa versa. Unfortunately for the potential buyer, I think she will have to look for a very long time as well as spend a lot more money to find a nice, big horse that will meet all of her expectations perfectly, but that is her decision and she is entitled to it.

I know I will find a buyer who will see though a 'slight change due to a slight confirmation flaw' and will see a horse who like almost all others is not symmetrical, and therefore should not have all his positive qualities overlooked.

I bought my young gelding regardless of finding a 'slight change of a front fetlock' during the PPE, his other qualities well outweighed something that was most likely manageable, and possibly would not bother him at all. Luckily, he has had no problems with the fetlock and competes on a high level as a hunter jumper. Unluckily, he got his hind leg caught in a pasture fence when he rolled under it, and spent 3 months on stall rest, thousands of dollars in vet bills, and gave me many sleepless nights of worrying. Thankfully he has made a full recovery from the injury and during his last check-up I joked with my vet that we thought we would have to worry about his front fetlock, silly us! He laughed and said sometimes people should think more about stories like mine during PPE's, and remember it probably won't be what is found in the x-ray's that will lay up their horse.

[mvp]

And in the Northeast, that's about 10K per year if nothing goes wrong, before you paid for your first lesson or show or joint injection.

That 10K is for a hobby. It money is post-taxes, post-mortgage, post-tuition, post-retirement account contribution, what have you.

So I get a little annoyed when those who "know horses" (perhaps through dearly-bought experience) look down their noses at less-knowledgeable buyers for being conservative about PPE results. We _are_ less knowledgeable, we know it, so we pay DVMs to help us minimize risk on a large investment-- one that will cost a great deal whether we screw up or not.

If you read my post above, you will see that I have bought one without an proctological PPE. I have also bred one who is not perfect, so I think I have been on the other side of this fence. But I would NEVER ask someone to lower their standards to take an imperfect horse that I bred or wished to sell. It sucks, but it would be my job to find a buyer who did accept my horse, warts found in PPE and all. If I'm not happy with that, I ought to produce better horses.

[slc2]

"proctological PPE"

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::D:D:winkgrin::winkgrin:; );)

Boy you DO go 'in depth' on your prepurchases, ROFLMAO!!!!!

[up-at-5]

Great article!!!! I loved reading about her OTTB with the bowed tendons.....

How many of us know people who are whiners about every ache and pain? Those people who call in to work sick, just because they have a small ache....or those that "can't" do this or that because their allergies are bothering them, or their pinky finger hurts??

How many of us know people who carry on, day in, day out, with chronic pain? They never complain, and often, people comment that they didn't know the person was suffering, because that person never moans about it...

Horses and people are very similar, I believe, when it comes to work ethic, and pain tolerance(or lack thereof).

[suzy]

I thought it was a great article and elicited a lot of interesting responses. For people new to buying horses, it is important to rely on the vet. But, I think they can also put stock in their trainer's opinion (if they have one). One of my students purchased a lovely, big TB about 6 years ago that we were pretty sure would not have clean radiographs. But, he was ideally suited for this tall rider and very reasonably priced. The vet did a ppe that did not involve any xrays. We were clear with her as to our expectations of the horse, and she felt confident that, with some maintenance, he would fulfill our needs perfectly. And, he did. So, sometimes you have to think and act a bit outside of the box. The bottomline, though, is that purchasing horses is not a one-size-fits-all type of endeavor. Everyone has different needs, expectations, budgets and so forth and must be guided accordingly.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I thought it was a great article and elicited a lot of interesting responses. For people new to buying horses, it is important to rely on the vet. But, I think they can also put stock in their trainer's opinion (if they have one). One of my students purchased a lovely, big TB about 6 years ago that we were pretty sure would not have clean radiographs. But, he was ideally suited for this tall rider and very reasonably priced. The vet did a ppe that did not involve any xrays. We were clear with her as to our expectations of the horse, and she felt confident that, with some maintenance, he would fulfill our needs perfectly. And, he did. So, sometimes you have to think and act a bit outside of the box. The bottomline, though, is that purchasing horses is not a one-size-fits-all type of endeavor. Everyone has different needs, expectations, budgets and so forth and must be guided accordingly.


Exactly! A friend (who is an intermediate rider middle aged woman) recently purchased a young draft cross mare against the recommendation of her vet. Her vet is a RACETRACK vet, and naturally her criteria for soundness are geared toward thoroughbred racing. My friend wanted this mare to do some trail riding, maybe some hilltopping with the hunt or hunter paces. The mare's radiographs showed arthritic changes in the hocks.

I encouraged her to seek a second opinion, which she got from an equine vet school professor specializing in orthopedic surgery. He said that the radiographs were pretty typical of a cowhocked draft type, and that it shouldn't cause any problems for the type of work that my friend wanted the mare to do.

Well, my friend has done much, much less than she wanted to do with the mare, because of time constraints as well as her riding ability. But she absolutely adores her mare and it is a good match. I shudder to think what the result would have been had she purchased a young horse that met the approval of her race track vet! :winkgrin:

[KayBee]

I've never bought or sold a horse, but here's something I've heard from various people -- that sometimes vets are over-cautious in pointing out flaws because they don't want to be held responsible if the horse has issues later on. In other words, it's safer for them to NOT pass a horse...

True/False?

Just curious...

[Foxhound]

Kaybee, I would say that's true for sure, especially with more expensive horses. Vets are worried about malpractice lawsuits like anyone else. It's often safer for them to hedge their bets and point out every possible flaw in order to protect themselves from future liabilities.

[Bogey2]

great article!

[fuzzy.pony]

What is this, Lazarus Week?

[Eclectic Horseman]

What is this, Lazarus Week?


:lol::lol::lol:

[Ajierene]

Some great points in the article.

When I was in high school, the barn I rode at never x-rayed horses or did any PPEs. They bought horses and watched them go in the ring. I only remember one incident where a PPE would have been helpful as the horse was drugged, so was sound at purchase, but came up lame about a week later. I believe it was a chip in the knee or something similar. I definitely remember it was the knee....

When buying horses, I only remember one person who did a PPE and they had money and bought a horse for about $20K, which was a LOT for that barn.

My trainer's student got a great riding horse for a deal because his x-rays showed arthritic changes at 4. With maintenance, she evented him for a long time.

Another friend had a vet look at a horse she bought. She is a pleasure rider, so confirmation was not as important, but this horse was about 2 and she was worried about the mare's legs. The vet replied that yes, every leg was crooked, going in a different direction, but she is balanced the way she is so there is no point in messing with her at all to get her legs more straight. She is fine the way she is.

In a similar vein, my grandmother went to a new doctor and got all kinds of tests and x-rays to assess her 'baseline' for her age. When she walked into the doctor's office for the consultation, he was surprised at how straight and freely he walked. She looked confused and he stated she was so riddled with arthritis he thought a bent, stiff woman was going to walk through the door. She replied, rather indignantly, that THAT was not how you walked!

[slc2]

Yeah, yeah yeah...no.

I think some folks took the article too far. Of course it's true that a magnificent old campaigner like Graf Georg has some 'things'. Georg went thru some awful times that were not mentioned and he was just a really special horse. There is no explaining why some horses are like Graf Georg. They're a gift from God, that's all.

Fitness keeps a lot of these higher mileage horses, tight and healthy and sound, so does lots of good veterinary care and sensible use.

There are indeed horses that look like a mess and have lousy xrays and are up for a lot of work, and there are horses that triumph over a lot of problems, and there are horses that don't get prepurchase exams and are useful for a long time.

At the same time, I have a lot of faith in my vet and in matching the right horse to the right job. MOST of the time, it isn't going to be the wisest thing to put a lot of hard work on a horse with real problems, and MOST of the time, those 'real problems' show up pretty obviously in prepurchase exams. MOST of the time, horses aren't Lazarus, and they get hurt bad, and they get retired, or they have problems, and they don't event and jump and do upper level dressage for 20 years unless the problem was pretty minor. And MOST of the time, a prepurchase exam can help someone choose a suitable horse.

And most of the time, no, Lazarus isn't going to rise from the dead. At least, I would not go along counting on it.