What to look for in an ad?

[Sonja Patterson]

I'm looking at ads for a young dressage horse to purchase. As an amateur dressage rider would I be more likely to get a good horse if the ad states 'suitable for amateur' or does this indicate a lesser quality horse?
What do you look for in an ad for a nice competitve type horse?

[luv2ride113]

To piggyback on this question, I have wondered the same thing. I have noticed many ads that say quiet enough for an amateur but quality enough for a professional. Also, what does it mean when a horse is suitable for a Young Rider? Does that mean the horse is not suitable for an amateur who's not advanced?

[TKR]

As a breeder, I think I can answer for a good number of us -- most breeders understand that good temperment is first and foremost a quality that is a "must". The largest market for horses is probably the female amateur. Even the "more qualified" or professional riders appreciate a horse that has a good work ethic. Dressage in particular requires a temperment that is conducive to doing such detailed and consistent work. So, in answer to your question -- an "amateur friendly" horse does not mean the talent is not there to go up the levels or compete in any competition. That said, the price will also possibly dictate how much talent (or maybe who is offering the horse or what part of the country the horse resides) this particular prospect has, which is also subjective. Even if someone is breeding horses known to be more of a "professional" ride does not guarantee success at the upper or international levels, so it's a good idea to breed for a temperment that insures some measure of success and a happy home (to me at least). Good luck with your search!
PennyG

[Fairview Horse Center]

There are different types of amateur horses. Some are really for serious amateur riders. Those riders can deal with a sensitive, more reactive horse. A horse that is a bit spooky will be nothing out of the ordinary to those riders, almost expected as they like the brilliance that comes with that package. They are also totally comfortable riding a horse with huge gaits. These riders are amateurs, but usually ride several horses per day.

Then there is the amateur horse that still has big gaits, but is easier going, less reactive. These horses will still be competitive, capable of earning solid 7s with some 8s. Will probably lose the brilliance bonus scores.

Another amateur type is one that has good gaits, but easier to sit. A more comfortable ride, very easy going. They will still earn the upper 60s to 70 scores.

SO it depends on what you are looking for, and what you can ride.

[merrygoround]

To me suityable for an amateur, idicates that the horse, when nslightly confused will not engage the type of histionics that destroy the rider. ;) :)

[mvp]

If you are an amateur in the (implied) sense that you ride badly or are basically afraid and unathletic, then you want a kind, smart horse who "thinks first and runs later."

If you want a horse that you can enjoy day after day, one that can show you how wonderful it is to bring a horse along, then you still want the same good mind.

So don't worry about the way that sellers or others who create euphemisms and categories. Think about how to describe the kind of horse you get along with, and about which questions you can ask sellers to elicit the specific information you want.

Then actually go on a date with the horse in person. There is no substitute.

I did choose a breeding stallion just from a series of phone calls to the owner and a video. I scrutinized both of them both for signs of a good or bad mind. I also asked the owner to give me examples of what she did with her horse that made him seem good-minded to her. She told me, for example, that she trail rode him herself... but that's not much information since I don't know how well she rides. I asked who led him around and if they regularly used a chain (some stallions then circulating required two people, each so armed). Did he live in a barn with mares, and if so, how did that work out? You can see what I mean about probing questions.

As to price. I think you should be willing to pay for a good mind, but not to the point that a breeder makes you feel that your amateur status is some sort of handicap or should make *your* kind of horse cost more. I think we ought to be breeding kind, smart, tractable horses.

[Bellfleur]

Typically for me when I say suitable for amateur I am referring to an excellent mind. One that is willing to tolerate mistakes and that does not take advantage of situations and has a brave and intelligent mind on their own.

I have seen many other ads that refer to suitable for amateur to mean less than talented in the movement or conformation or completely a slug and you must kick to go forward every stride.

This mare is one that I have that has a 'amateur' mind. Super gaits, exceptionally comfortable, super affectionate, and very very pretty. When she went to this horse show (her first one) one non horse friend was holding the riding jacket and videoing the warmup while the rider was in the schooling ring. Ring steward came over and said "you are in in two minutes" (she had not gotten the updated sheets with the new times the night before and we thought she had another 16 minutes before her ride). We had a serious hurry up and get in the ring. So I am taking wraps off (underneath the mare and not looking at all) and the rider asks for her jacket. The jacket gets handed up by the "unknowing friend" STILL IN THE PLASTIC WRAPPER from the dry cleaner. Here is a 5 yr old mare at her first show where it is chilly and WINDY with the plastic dry cleaner bag flapping around her in the breeze. She stood there quietly while the rider fished her jacket out of the bag and put it on and then handed the hanger and the bag back to the non-horse friend then proceeded to go ahead into the arena and go right to work with only about 8 minutes warmup. 19 horses and she was 7th and the first place was 67. something but 2nd thru 6th were all 66. something. She got a 66 even so easily could have been in the top ribbons but for her one mistake.

This is my idea of an amateur horse. video link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgLHVQkvCTw

[not again]

There is a great thread going on the eventing forum. Denny Emerson posted this gem:
My friend David Hopper has bought and sold literally thousands of horses over the past 50 years.

Here`s his handy 1-10 scale:

1,2,3,4-----Very quiet, steady, forgiving. These horses basically ABSORB the riders` mistakes.

5,6-------Ideal competition horses, still calm enough, but with enough spark to really excel.
These horses, within reason, TOLERATE their riders` mistakes.

7,8------Hotter, more intolerant of pilot error, needing of calm, subtle aids, talented, perhaps, but only very good riders can "get at" that talent. These horses MAGNIFY their riders` mistakes.

9,10-------Too hot, they bring only pain and misery

USE THIS SCALE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[horsetales]

From my view point for my youngstock, I'm not using ammie temperment to define talent/potential. I'm an amatuer, and I'm trying to look at it as if I were going to keep it - does the horse forgive my shortcommings, how reactive are they.

As someone else pointed out I have found there are 2 types of amatuers. I had a mare (eventer) extremely level headed, never refused, super honest with no spookiness to her, BUT she had a huge engine in her. She went to a junior (13 yr old) that is a serious competitor (2 yrs later they are doing great together). Even though she never did anything that wasn't asked, you could feel her power and that scared many people. Her mind is totally amatuer friendly and she has the ability to go to the upper levels.

[Valentina_32926]

Also, what does it mean when a horse is suitable for a Young Rider? Does that mean the horse is not suitable for an amateur who's not advanced?

No - it means the horse has enough talent (in sellers mind:lol:) to do decently in the Young Riders competitions (FEI). That means the price will be higher because there is more talent there - it does NOT mean the horse is not Ammy friendly. :)

[Valentina_32926]

There is a great thread going on the eventing forum. Denny Emerson posted this gem:
My friend David Hopper has bought and sold literally thousands of horses over the past 50 years.

Here`s his handy 1-10 scale:

1,2,3,4-----Very quiet, steady, forgiving. These horses basically ABSORB the riders` mistakes.

5,6-------Ideal competition horses, still calm enough, but with enough spark to really excel.
These horses, within reason, TOLERATE their riders` mistakes.

7,8------Hotter, more intolerant of pilot error, needing of calm, subtle aids, talented, perhaps, but only very good riders can "get at" that talent. These horses MAGNIFY their riders` mistakes.

9,10-------Too hot, they bring only pain and misery

USE THIS SCALE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like this scale. My older SWB mare is a 4 - very reactive to legs aids but will try to figure out what rider wants even if rider doesn't know how to ask.

My Dutch mare is a 6 or 6.5 - for trails she's good rider AA friendly (less so than SWB mare). For competition if you can't ride she'll hollow out and go like a giraffe. But she's competitive in the toughest competition although laast show changes were preceeded by a vault in the air - so rider needs good balance. And if you don't ask her correctly she'll do a LY rather than a SI, etc... however her natural athleticism makes her scores better even at Third level (I'm working on getting her and I better so we can continue up the ranks - PSG here we come!).
If she were for sale I would sell to an AA - but that AA would have to test ride my SWB mare first to see if she could handle my Dutch mare. :lol:

[Eclectic Horseman]

The last couple that I have had on the market, the first question out of prospective purchasers' mouths was "does he spook?" I think that sellers are trying to play to this largest group of prospective purchasers by calling the horse "amateur friendly" while not guaranteeing that the horse won't act like a horse.

I don't think that the amateur/professional distinction is very helpful at all. It has become almost a euphemism for a horse that is suitable for a beginner or very timid rider. Such a horse is probably not going to be much of a competitor beyond the lowest levels, because he will not be quick enough off the aids.

[patch work farm]

My best advice is to ask the seller. I too like the scale, but my opinion of where my horse might "fit" may be different than what you think. I find that many people today go to an ad or a web site, read and interpret what they want and move on if the seller didn't use "key words or phrases" (sort of like a resume) but in fact, through conversation more information might come out.

When I am interested in a horse, I call and ask, ask, ask...not sure why that is no longer the case? I don't pay any long distance charges anymore, maybe I am in the minority but even when I did, it was worth finding out that the horse was/or was not what I was looking for. To rule it out without a conversation isn't necessarily fair to the horse but worse yet, you might pass on your dream horse!

[FriesianX]

It has become almost a euphemism for a horse that is suitable for a beginner or very timid rider. Such a horse is probably not going to be much of a competitor beyond the lowest levels, because he will not be quick enough off the aids.

I disagree, I think it means a horse that can be TONED DOWN easily for a less advanced rider. I've had several horses now that you could put a rank beginner on, and they would slow down and become "steady eddies", but if you put a good rider on them who demanded more, they could be made more reactive and sensitive. My stallion is actually like that - he can tune out if necessary. To me, an amatuer's horse is one that is forgiving, and has a range of reaction that can be accessed, depending on the rider. Of course, what this thread shows us is that there are MANY different definitions of amateur horse.

Taking off on the 1 to 10 scale - several trainers told me that they consider any horse that is 4 or higher to be too reactive for many middle ability riders. So even using the number scale, we see different definitions.

I agree with Patchwork - the real key is to call and ask a lot of questions. If there is video available, ask to see it, and ask your knowledgeable friends and trainer(s) to review it. If at all possible, go visit the horse more than once. If it is a long distance transaction - go spend a night and visit the horse at least over two days, especially if the horse is of riding age, so you can get on its back more than once. If the horse is in a remote, hard to access area, and you decide it isn't worth the travel costs to get there, but are still interested, ask a vet or someone local to evaluate the horse, both for ground manners and soundness. Some vets will at least give you their professional opinion on how the horse is reacting to stimuli that day. Ask for additional, unedited video, and ask for specific things - such as saddling, bridling, lunging, working over ground poles, walk and trot in hand, etc - all this will help you evaluate the horse and its relationship with the handler.

As someone who sells a few horses each year, I do get questions like "has he ever spooked" or "has he ever bucked", once I got a question "has he ever refused a jump"? YES, of course, he's a HORSE! There is truly no such thing as bomb proof, and if you want perfectly safe, you are in the wrong hobby:lol:. But some horses are much, much, much less reactive to external issues than others. They can still be trained to be quick to the aids - less reactive does not have to be plow horse.

Funny though, this sure illustrates how one word is viewed so differently by so many!

[Eclectic Horseman]

I disagree, I think it means a horse that can be TONED DOWN easily for a less advanced rider. I've had several horses now that you could put a rank beginner on, and they would slow down and become "steady eddies", but if you put a good rider on them who demanded more, they could be made more reactive and sensitive. My stallion is actually like that - he can tune out if necessary. To me, an amatuer's horse is one that is forgiving, and has a range of reaction that can be accessed, depending on the rider. Of course, what this thread shows us is that there are MANY different definitions of amateur horse.

Taking off on the 1 to 10 scale - several trainers told me that they consider any horse that is 4 or higher to be too reactive for many middle ability riders. So even using the number scale, we see different definitions.

I agree with Patchwork - the real key is to call and ask a lot of questions. If there is video available, ask to see it, and ask your knowledgeable friends and trainer(s) to review it. If at all possible, go visit the horse more than once. If it is a long distance transaction - go spend a night and visit the horse at least over two days, especially if the horse is of riding age, so you can get on its back more than once. If the horse is in a remote, hard to access area, and you decide it isn't worth the travel costs to get there, but are still interested, ask a vet or someone local to evaluate the horse, both for ground manners and soundness. Some vets will at least give you their professional opinion on how the horse is reacting to stimuli that day. Ask for additional, unedited video, and ask for specific things - such as saddling, bridling, lunging, working over ground poles, walk and trot in hand, etc - all this will help you evaluate the horse and its relationship with the handler.

As someone who sells a few horses each year, I do get questions like "has he ever spooked" or "has he ever bucked", once I got a question "has he ever refused a jump"? YES, of course, he's a HORSE! There is truly no such thing as bomb proof, and if you want perfectly safe, you are in the wrong hobby:lol:. But some horses are much, much, much less reactive to external issues than others. They can still be trained to be quick to the aids - less reactive does not have to be plow horse.

Funny though, this sure illustrates how one word is viewed so differently by so many!

Funny how you never see ads for dressage horses that say: "Dead to the aids." "Lazy" "Lethargic" "Backward thinking." "Plug" etc.

It's not because those horses don't exist. My point is that the words "amateur friendly" are sometimes used to describe those horses rather than a more accurate (but negative) description. And there is a huge market for those horses, but buyers usually do not want to admit that they are beginners or timid riders. So there is a tacit agreement to use the words "amateur friendly."

But we reach the same conclusion--you cannot judge a horse by the way that the seller words the advertisement.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Funny how you never see ads for dressage horses that say: "Dead to the aids." "Lazy" "Lethargic" "Backward thinking." "Plug" etc.

Dead to the aids, plug, lazy etc is usually more of a training problem than actual temperament. Backwards thinking is a sour attitude, again usually a training problem.

My most tolerant and least reactive horses can be easily trained to be light to the aids, and do not need constant reminders to go forward. They love their job. They just don't care if a standard falls over, or the rider loses their stirrup.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Dead to the aids, plug, lazy etc is usually more of a training problem than actual temperament. Backwards thinking is a sour attitude, again usually a training problem.

My most tolerant and least reactive horses can be easily trained to be light to the aids, and do not need constant reminders to go forward. They love their job. They just don't care if a standard falls over, or the rider loses their stirrup.

I don't disagree. I made no comment whatsoever on how the condition was caused (poor training, lousy riding, exercise intolerance due to veterinary issue, or soundness.)

I was merely making the point that no seller ever describes a horse that way in an advertisement. The converse is that you don't see a horse described as "extremely reactive" "hot" "spooky" "kinetic" etc. either. That sort of temperament can be created too--it can also be a training problem.

But I thought we were talking about wording in advertisements.....

[Fairview Horse Center]

I was merely making the point that no seller ever describes a horse that way in an advertisement.

Very true. Ask a lot of questions, then definitely go for a visit, or several.

[horsetales]

I disagree, I think it means a horse that can be TONED DOWN easily for a less advanced rider. I've had several horses now that you could put a rank beginner on, and they would slow down and become "steady eddies", but if you put a good rider on them who demanded more, they could be made more reactive and sensitive. My stallion is actually like that - he can tune out if necessary. To me, an amatuer's horse is one that is forgiving, and has a range of reaction that can be accessed, depending on the rider. Of course, what this thread shows us is that there are MANY different definitions of amateur horse.!

I agree, one of my yearling's sire was once ridden by grand Prix rider Margie Goldstein-Engle. When he was retired he went on to pack around a very timid youth in Long Stirrup. Amateur mind/professional talent horse

[FriesianX]

You know, over the years, I have called on a lot of ads, and have actually had people tell me the horse is lazy, slow to respond, hard to get forward. Or takes a strong rider, or requires a whip. The ads don't say a lot, but I've found most (not all, but most) sellers are pretty willing to answer questions when someone calls. The worst answers I get are when I talk to people who simply don't KNOW any better - I don't think they are trying to mislead, they just don't know the difference.

Now, having said that, I'll fully admit there are some dishonest people in the horse selling business (ask me about my friend's daughter who ended up buying a horse who was DRUGGED every time she came to ride it, grrr), but I've actually found more honest people than otherwise. Maybe I've been lucky?

If you see a horse that peaks your interest - start with an email, have some specific pre-written questions in mind, and if it still sounds interesting after that, pick up the phone and call.

Some questions I always ask (every horse I've bought has been a baby, not yet under saddle, so keep that in mind):

Is the horse up to date on shots and worming?
Has the horse had any injuries or illness?
How much ground work has been done with the horse?
Do they pick up all 4 feet, tie, lead, load, clip, bathe easily?
Would you object to me contacting your vet about the horse's health history?
If the horse was inspected, could I see a copy of the scores?
Does the horse have any bad habits, such as cribbing, weaving, etc?
How does the horse get along with other horses in a pasture setting?
Would you describe the horse as brave? Nervous? Timid? Pushy? Mouthy? What is the horse's best gait in your opinion?
Which discipline do you think the horse is best suited for? Why?
Have any of the horse's relatives competed (even at lower levels) in that discipline?

Do you have recent video of the horse - all three gaits at liberty, and in hand at the walk and trot, going to and from the camera, and picking up feet, and maybe some of other groundwork (depends on how old they are, but if they are 3 or older, I'll ask for a bit of video lunging in tack)?

I like to have a list in front of me when I'm asking questions. You can screen some of the info by email - but in reality, I think you'll get a lot more over the phone! Like I said, I've had really good luck over the years, and I think it has affected the way I sell horses now. I'd much rather give too much info than not enough!

Good luck in your search - and if you get a bad vibe from a seller, trust your instinct and walk away...

[ToN Farm]

Funny how you never see ads for dressage horses that say: "Dead to the aids." "Lazy" "Lethargic" "Backward thinking." "Plug" etc.

It's not because those horses don't exist. My point is that the words "amateur friendly" are sometimes used to describe those horses rather than a more accurate (but negative) description. And there is a huge market for those horses, but buyers usually do not want to admit that they are beginners or timid riders. So there is a tacit agreement to use the words "amateur friendly."

But we reach the same conclusion--you cannot judge a horse by the way that the seller words the advertisement.Agree, and also your other comment about nobody saying the horse is hot, or difficult.

All sale horses are lovely movements and attractive, too.....don't you know. Most have FEI potential and are easy to sit.

It's a shame, because if you tell a client the truth, they lose interest.

[FuelsterFarm]

I try to be extremely forthright when describing the horses that I sell. Frankly, I would rather scare someone off than ask them to spend their time and/or money looking at a horse that my intuition tells me would be an unsuitable match.

At present, I have one gelding for sale that is a true beginner's mount - he is quiet, easy, on the lazy side unless really ridden, and not reactive to much of anything. When describing him, I am quick to point out that the reason I am selling him is that he is not naturally "spicy" enough for my tastes.

On the other side of the coin, I have a client's filly here that very well bred, a lovely mover, and has one heck of a jump. She is on the hot side, and I describe her as such.

When I describe an Amateur friendly horse, I agree with the consensus posted above in that it is a talented, but not "brilliant" (strongly reactive) mount that is forgiving of rider error.

My bottom line is that my reputation for being very forthright is worth far more than making a one time sale.

[Indy-lou]

In my mind, "amateur friendly" means a horse that has a temperament that is forgiving, able and willing to tolerate mistakes, a horse that does not require sensitive and highly skilled handling. But, you have to look at the age and training history of a horse described as such. If we're talking about a 3 year old with an "amateur friendly temperament", hopefully buyers will understand that this is an untrained horse, and the "amateur friendly" description is merely an assessment of the horse's general character and ability to tolerate uncertainty. An amateur is a handler/rider that is still on the learning path, not someone who can "read" every horse in every instance and apply the necessary adjustments to training and handling. An amateur may still may be capable in a lot of instances, including being athletic and able to stick on a horse that is exuberant. Even capable of sitting large gaits, but maybe not always that advanced in their seat, or ability to coordinate their aids to maximum potential. I do not think that "amateur" implies that a person "rides badly" or is "unathletic" necessarily. I would call that person a beginner. Some folks will forever be at the "beginner" stage due to lack of skills or ability or even natural talent, no matter how long they have been at riding. Amateur friendly in my book does not necessarily mean "beginner friendly". Beginner friendly is a rare and special horse that is already trained and has been there and done that, and isn't likely to get anyone hurt, and will keep going around quietly even if the aids are confusing. Amateur friendly means a less reactive and tolerant temperament IN GENERAL that overall, does not require the advanced skills of a professional in every instance . When talking about a young, untrained horse, then I think the term is used (or should be used) to describe a horses' natural temperament for "going with the flow" and not getting angry or exploding when communication is less than ideal. Just my opinion. I have observed a lot of "professionals" who are less talented at reading horses than some less experienced "amateurs". Bottom line, open communication between buyer and seller and hopefully both parties are being realistic. I have seen that a lot of people over-estimate their riding abilities.