Why don't we see riding like this anymore?

[pds]

Why don't we see equitation like this in the show ring anymore?

Look at that release!
Look at the riders back!
Look how he IS NOT down on the horses neck!

http://www.clipshack.com/Clip.aspx?key=23DB4075CA90A588

I wish I had been taught to ride like this when I was young.

This photo is out of the book I just purchased (I like to collect old equistrian titles) titled, Riding by Benjamin Lewis. 1936

Very interesting book and the technology they used at the time to get overhead shots.

[Dixon]

Good question. Thanks for posting a historical photo.

[Heineken]

That's pretty much the way I'm being taught...eyes up, heel down, back flat and body following the motion with the horse straight and on the aids...If you are in the right program you should look pretty much like that, maybe without the auto release.

[seabreeze]

I happened to notice the equitation of the rider in the picture of this ad the other day (I have nothing to do with this ad, by the way):

http://www.virginiaequestrian.com/main.cfm?action=Classifieds&sub=largeImage&ListingID=38508&PhotoID=62066

(Well, GM might say something about the open fingers ;))

[Samantha37]

seabreeze- that is actually Ishi on here! She has WestWind Farms in Marshall, VA

[wolfatbay2002]

That is how I was taught also, heels pushing down so hard my calfs burned.

[Tiffani B]

I have to comment on the tack and clothing! Wow! He looks like a Saddle Seat rider, prior to the standardization of the tack based on "discipline." (I'm guessing back then you rode it what you had or what worked, not in the "correct" equipment). Double bridle with a long shanked curb, jods, snap brim hat... I can't tell if he's in a cutback or a forward saddle but it looks like a hybrid, given how long the seat is compared to today's hunt saddles. But it appears to have knee rolls.

Very very interesting!

[Eventer13]

I don't mean to be the one voice of dissent here, but if I saw myself in a picture with a similar position, I would be thinking I was jumping ahead a bit. If the horse were to dissappear, he'd fall forward. Maybe its an eventer vs jumper thing, and I prefer more of a "in the back seat" look. However, I really like the hip and leg position of the rider in seabreeze's picture. Its secure, without inhibiting the horse.

Please don't get me wrong, I think that he's a lovely, relaxed rider and I LOVE the release, I just don't think its quite perfect. Then again, I really, really like guy in the Beval ad on the right hand side of the screen (with the old time photo). That's what I strive for.

[HookedOnReefing]

I still ride like that too. I don't do the weird praying mantis crest release thing or ride with my reins in my lap and keep my head up, nothing to see down there anyway. And I'm not even that old, only early 30's. But this is how we all rode back in The Netherlands where I grew up. We used flat as a pancake type saddles too. The bad thing is, I can't find a decently priced flat close contact saddle. Most have rolls and blocks to some degree and make me extremely insecure. I know they're supposed to help but they don't help me, those blocks and rolls are in the way and you loose contact with your horse.

I also think that blocks/rolls are not really helping out the newer riders and puts them in a less than technically correct position. But then again, what ever works for the rider as long as you stay out of the way of your horse. I don't really care how someone gets over the jump as long as they stay out of the way!

So I still ride in and buy old used pariani's and Crosby PDN's in good shape and look funny at jumper shows with my weird saddles, wearing my plain black or navy frock coats with my white breeches, white shirts and knitted ties:D

[chunky munky]

Uh.. am I the only one that notices that the jump is a cavaletti? That is not a jump. Show me same rider 3'6" or better then we can have a discussion of position.

[Ishi]

Seebreeze, that's me. I am so flattered you saw that and posted it, that's really a compliment, thank you so much! I did the Big Eq for years and years as a junior with a BNT, went to indoors, all of it. I used to love the eq, but I haven't been a junior in a while, I now gallop in the mornings, event and start young horses, the open fingers being a result.

I guess it's something that stayed with me. It was a great time, and I had a amazing trainer who I started with when I was just about 5 at a barn in NJ with an older guy who was Polish. He taught me such great basics, when I moved on, it all built from there.

[00Jumper]

Uh.. am I the only one that notices that the jump is a cavaletti? That is not a jump. Show me same rider 3'6" or better then we can have a discussion of position.

A correct position is a correct position, no matter the height of the jump. To demand more of an old photo is silly - take what you can learn from this photo and remember it for what you think it's worth. And also, it's not a cavaletti - it's an oxer, though I'm having a hard time judging height due to the angle of the photo. Not 3'6" but what are you going to do? :rolleyes:

The rider is NOT jumping ahead, and the fact that you might think so demonstrates how far removed modern jumping position is from a balanced seat. The rider's hind end is not rammed into the back of the saddle because his body is behind held tall, supporting his horse while it jumps through its back and into his hand. His seat is light, his leg position is absolutely solid (calf has slipped back perhaps a hair if you're going to be picky). Were he farther forward, he would have looked like he was jumping ahead, and were he farther back he would not be able to balance and support his horse as it took off and landed. As it is he is right where he needs to be. ;)

Beautiful photo, OP, thanks for posting. :)

[sporthorsefilly]

Back in the 60's riders were taught to ride well, to do the proper release with following arms, that did not interrupt the horses use of head and neck. I learned from Capt. Littaur, who also taught Bernie Traurig (Maclay/AHSA Medal 1961) and Stephanie Steck (AHSA Medal 1963) This is how I was taught,

http://www.herselffarm.com/images/Golden%20Power.jpg

What happened was the George Morris began teaching the crest release, which is the intermediate style used before you learn "following arms." Sadly too many people decided that was the "in-thing" and good riding went down the drain.

What is worse is that top hunter riders are laying on the neck, hanging off the side of the horse...why? So you can see the bascule better??? Ugh. This really looks horrid over a 2'6" fence. Perhaps we need some of the older riders to come back and teach the proper method of riding.

Bill Steinkraus over atleast a 5 foot fence, with perfect style from the 50s/60s: http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/eventing/steinkraus_bold_minstrel_200.jpg

[neutral milk hotel]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/Photo_Gallery/Images/1130311072144331/MichelleMorris.jpg

Michelle Morris at the 2007 Maclay Finals, showing good form (IMHO).

[MIKES MCS]

[QUOTE=sporthorsefilly;3928460]Back in the 60's riders were taught to ride well, to do the proper release with following arms, that did not interrupt the horses use of head and neck. I learned from Capt. Littaur, who also taught Bernie Traurig (Maclay/AHSA Medal 1961) and Stephanie Steck (AHSA Medal 1963) This is how I was taught,

http://www.herselffarm.com/images/Golden%20Power.jpg

I just have to comment on something in this picture that has nothing to do with the rider , ALTHOUGHT ABSOLUTLEY FLAWLESS FORM....
If you notice the horses hoof , the angle is perfect this horse has a toe and heel , we didn't chop up our horses feet back than they way they do now .. why is it blacksmiths feel the need to chop off toes and round feet.. Maybe cart horses need to stand straight up but our TB's NEed thier toes ... another thing the saddle is flatter than flat NO over stuffing poking into the back.. no HUGE knee blocks interferring with the shoulder, No Thigh blocks digging into the ribs.. I wonder how much of our horses chiropractic needs are due to saddles designed to keep a "Rider" in good position rather than the rider themselves keeping in good position.. We haven't just screwed up our riding with all our artificial technics we've managed to screw up alot of horses too.

[fordtraktor]

Eventer13, the back seat is something that is a tool in the toolbox. It is not necessary to be behind the motion over a small jump with even terrain.

I think this picture is a great example of the American system of riding with the motion.

You also have to take into account the two pictures are taken at different points in the arc of the fence. The man in this photo will probably look pretty much like the Beval add on the backside of the jump (the Beval photo is captured in descent, this one is on the way up).

[seabreeze]

Seebreeze, that's me. I am so flattered you saw that and posted it, that's really a compliment, thank you so much! I did the Big Eq for years and years as a junior with a BNT, went to indoors, all of it. I used to love the eq, but I haven't been a junior in a while, I now gallop in the mornings, event and start young horses, the open fingers being a result.

I guess it's something that stayed with me. It was a great time, and I had a amazing trainer who I started with when I was just about 5 at a barn in NJ with an older guy who was Polish. He taught me such great basics, when I moved on, it all built from there.

I should've known I'd be picking on a COTHer!!:lol:

Yes, Ishi, you're seat and leg really did stand out to me. As for the fingers, I didn't mean to be critical (with a seat like that you're in no danger of bumping that horse in the mouth); I was just trying to avert the inevitable naysayer. How I wish I could ride as beautifully! A good eye with poor application, I'm afraid :no: LOL.

I'm glad you're flattered...the trainers of your youth would be proud!

[ccoronios]

sporthorsefilly -

Glad you posted the picture of Bill. I was going to try to find one of Mary Mairs Chapot. DAMN - that woman could equitate over 6'.....made me ILL!!!! In the very best way...;-)

Carol

[BAC]

Then again, I really, really like guy in the Beval ad on the right hand side of the screen (with the old time photo). That's what I strive for.

I know exactly what photo you are referring to, I love that picture too. There is such an air of softness and relaxation in it, not the stiff, perched appearance so prevalent today.

[naters]

Seebreeze, that's me. I am so flattered you saw that and posted it, that's really a compliment, thank you so much! I did the Big Eq for years and years as a junior with a BNT, went to indoors, all of it. I used to love the eq, but I haven't been a junior in a while, I now gallop in the mornings, event and start young horses, the open fingers being a result.

I guess it's something that stayed with me. It was a great time, and I had a amazing trainer who I started with when I was just about 5 at a barn in NJ with an older guy who was Polish. He taught me such great basics, when I moved on, it all built from there.


Wow! Wish I could ride half as good as that picture!!!!

[Small Spark]

There are still many good riders jumping in that form in the international ring. The stylist I would like to emulate is definitely Markus Ehning,
http://www.sportvox.fr/IMG/markus3.jpg

[Samantha37]

Wow! Wish I could ride half as good as that picture!!!!

You should see her ride in person- she is even better to watch IRL;) She can ride the toughest horse and make it look sooo easy!

[BAC]

sporthorsefilly -

Glad you posted the picture of Bill. I was going to try to find one of Mary Mairs Chapot. DAMN - that woman could equitate over 6'.....made me ILL!!!! In the very best way...;-)

Carol

Funny you should mention MMC, I was just glancing through George Morris' book this morning and admiring her. IMO Bill Steinkraus and Mary Chapot are the epitome of style and classical equitation, I consider myself fortunate to have had the opportunity to watch both of them compete during their years riding with the USET. :yes:

[RugBug]

If the horse were to dissappear, he'd fall forward. Maybe its an eventer vs jumper thing, and I prefer more of a "in the back seat" look.

I disagree that this gentleman would fall forward if the horse would disappear. His center of gravity is pretty firmly over his feet.

[Fallbrook]

I was browsing through some photos from HITS Ocala - looking for a particular horse, and it occurred to me that they must have fabulous footing at that venue because, with few exceptions, the riders can't seem to take their eyes off of it -

Fab-footing (http://www.photostockplus.com/home.php?user_id=34487&tmpl=56&event=262247&action=viewphoto&album_id=262338&rank=3&pcount=45) - look at the next 20 or 30 photos in the album :(

Note - not picking on anyone in particular - but I did notice the continuation of an unfortunate trend :(

[pds]

Okay, so let's look at a more modern picture with proper equitation. This is from the book, Reflections on Riding and Jumping - Winning Techniques for Serious Riders by William Steinkraus. Revised edition 1997, Page 200

http://www.clipshack.com/Clip.aspx?key=3EB20461EA735BD6

Pay particular note to his photo comments.

"...is entirely characteristic and entirely correct, showing perfect contact, perfect balance and complete sympathy."

[2 tbs]

Why don't we see equitation like this in the show ring anymore?

I don't know about you, but I see it just about every day! In my mind at least :lol: That's how I imagine myself riding but apparently my body translates that into something far less appealing and ideal!! :rolleyes::winkgrin::lol:

[pds]

I wonder if George Morris regrets his endorsement and teaching of the crest release?

[SpicyMonarch]

I wonder if George Morris regrets his endorsement and teaching of the crest release?

Are you serious? Why would he? It's one more tool to have in the toolbox.

[RugBug]

I wonder if George Morris regrets his endorsement and teaching of the crest release?

I think GM regrets that people take things to such extremes.

The crest release is useful. It SHOULD be taught as it saves a lot of horse's mouths while people are learning to jump.

Unfortunately, as a whole, society seems to take something that is good and make it bad. For example, Hunters need to be so quiet that a little exuberance kills your chances at a ribbon, Big Eq riders have to have a 'long leg' so they ride with stirrups a bazillion holes too long that causes them to jump ahead and have a swinging lower leg because there is no support, WP have to go so slow that aren't even doing a recognizable gait, reining horses have to 'whoa' so hard and slide so far with their butt so tucked under them they look like they're going to sit on their tushes, Big Lick horses have to have so much action they make them sore, etc. A little is never enough. Same thing with the crest release. Thankfully, things are coming back around.

[twobays]

I think GM regrets that people take things to such extremes.

The crest release is useful. It SHOULD be taught as it saves a lot of horse's mouths while people are learning to jump.

Unfortunately, as a whole, society seems to take a something that is good and make it bad. For example, Hunters need to be so quiet that a little exuberance kills your chances at a ribbon, Big Eq riders have to have a 'long leg' so they ride with stirrups a bazillion wholes too long that causes them to jump ahead and have a swinging lower leg because there is no support, WP have to go so slow that aren't even doing a recognizable gait, reining horses have to 'whoa' so hard and slide so far and with their butt so tucked under them they look like they're going to sit on their tushes, Big Lick horses have to have so much action they make them sore, etc. A little is never enough. Same thing with the crest release. Thankfully, things are coming back around.


That's a great point RugBug...I hadn't ever really thought about how all disciplines take (good) things to an extreme. Now my head hurts from thinking too much before noon.

[superpony123]

Uh.. am I the only one that notices that the jump is a cavaletti? That is not a jump. Show me same rider 3'6" or better then we can have a discussion of position.

..that's an oxer, not a cavaletti.

it's a lower oxer but for it's small size, the spread is larger. (not large in general but proportionally, it looks bigger than the jump itself)

its a demonstration of balance and good form. i'm sure the man could have done the same over 4'. but even so, i'd rather see a rider who jumps nicely like that over something small than a rider throwing themselves foreward or something over a large jump

[superpony123]

I was browsing through some photos from HITS Ocala - looking for a particular horse, and it occurred to me that they must have fabulous footing at that venue because, with few exceptions, the riders can't seem to take their eyes off of it -

Fab-footing (http://www.photostockplus.com/home.php?user_id=34487&tmpl=56&event=262247&action=viewphoto&album_id=262338&rank=3&pcount=45) - look at the next 20 or 30 photos in the album :(

Note - not picking on anyone in particular - but I did notice the continuation of an unfortunate trend :(

:lol::lol::lol: i notice that too. but then again, look at tommy and popeye..
http://www.dorschfarms.ca/refsire-pics/popeye_k1.jpg
those jumps are 3'6'' and 4'. you are probably somewhere from 5-8 feet in the air. it isnt always the best idea to look down, but at those heights, it wont have as much of a consequence (if any at all) as it does at a much lower height, say, 2'6''.

ill admit im guilty of this occasionally, though, on bigger jumps (think 3' and up). doesn't realy do much cause i usually look up quick enough before we land but i only seem to do that when there's no jumps ahead :lol: bad idea, but i do sometimes. i dont know why. on the bright side, i get to see my pony's ncie knees

[caevent]

I was browsing through some photos from HITS Ocala - looking for a particular horse, and it occurred to me that they must have fabulous footing at that venue because, with few exceptions, the riders can't seem to take their eyes off of it -

Fab-footing (http://www.photostockplus.com/home.php?user_id=34487&tmpl=56&event=262247&action=viewphoto&album_id=262338&rank=3&pcount=45) - look at the next 20 or 30 photos in the album :(

Note - not picking on anyone in particular - but I did notice the continuation of an unfortunate trend :(

Oh my goodness. That was horrifying. I knew that there were some ugly trends, but to see rider after rider after rider committing these awful mannerisms - well, just proves that classical horsemanship is more and more a thing of the past.

[hjprincess09]

I was browsing through some photos from HITS Ocala - looking for a particular horse, and it occurred to me that they must have fabulous footing at that venue because, with few exceptions, the riders can't seem to take their eyes off of it -

Fab-footing (http://www.photostockplus.com/home.php?user_id=34487&tmpl=56&event=262247&action=viewphoto&album_id=262338&rank=3&pcount=45) - look at the next 20 or 30 photos in the album :(

Note - not picking on anyone in particular - but I did notice the continuation of an unfortunate trend :(

I'd have to agree. I use to do the whole duck and look thing (the trainer I was with did so, and I assumed that it was alright and helped in getting the correct lead...). A few rides on a stopper with a shoulder drop and spin out or who would land and buck, taught me to not duck. The only way that my trainer managed to stop the floor staring was to make me pay - each look down over a jump ended up with me paying $5 to anyone watching and who caught it - I lost a lot of money with that one until I stopped and today, its only prelevent if I'm nervous or my horse is wayyy hot/nervous.

I also do not like the whole laying on neck -- if I were to do that on my mare, she'd ditch me very quickly.

[RugBug]

check this photo out. (http://www.photostockplus.com/home.php?user_id=34487&tmpl=56&event=262247&action=viewphoto&album_id=262341&rank=36&pcount=45) So lovely. You could nitpick a few things but I think he looks fantastic.

[Foxtrot's]

A rider like that decorates the horse, the other norm just causes a distraction from a beautiful, expensive horse. I shake my head that they get rewarded. "Showing off a bascule" - that's a crock.

I sincerely hope that the poster who said things were turning around is right.

[GilbertsCreeksideAcres]

That equine in the first picture on this thread looks a lot like a mule. Not that it matters, from an equitation standpoint. Just mentioning it.

[vineyridge]

If I could emulate any modern rider it would be Laura Chapot. She learned well from the greats. :)

GM has an Off Course in the Chronicle last week talking about the great photo of Democrat and General Wing and using it as an example of what hands and arms should do.

[SuperSTB]

That equine in the first picture on this thread looks a lot like a mule. Not that it matters, from an equitation standpoint. Just mentioning it.

People breed for fancy and pretty today, not so much back then. I have bunches of historical photos of tb's, stb's, morgans, etc that sport the larger ears, substantial knees and hocks, solid feet, and more prominant 'almost' to definetly roman nose :)

[00Jumper]

:lol::lol::lol: i notice that too. but then again, look at tommy and popeye..
http://www.dorschfarms.ca/refsire-pics/popeye_k1.jpg
those jumps are 3'6'' and 4'. you are probably somewhere from 5-8 feet in the air. it isnt always the best idea to look down, but at those heights, it wont have as much of a consequence (if any at all) as it does at a much lower height, say, 2'6''.

ill admit im guilty of this occasionally, though, on bigger jumps (think 3' and up). doesn't realy do much cause i usually look up quick enough before we land but i only seem to do that when there's no jumps ahead :lol: bad idea, but i do sometimes. i dont know why. on the bright side, i get to see my pony's ncie knees

Because if Tommy Serio does it on Popeye K, it's fine. :rolleyes: No, at that point of the jump, it's not going to affect the horse's way of going as long as he's looking up on landing, but that isn't the point. The point is that the style of riding is, to be frank, distracting. For a discipline that's all about showing off the horse, it's amazing how many riders distract from their animals by making big ducking moves over a fence and throwing their arms forward; a quiet ride will always serve to keep the focus on the horse first and foremost.

Also, and this might just be me, but while I respect Tommy Serio's riding ability and what I know of his horse training, I've never been a fan of his equitation. :no: And I feel strongly that if you're going to train professionally at that level, your eq should be pretty good. Better than most people's anyway. But that may just be me being a hard-a#$.

[springdaisy]

We used flat as a pancake type saddles too. The bad thing is, I can't find a decently priced flat close contact saddle. Most have rolls and blocks to some degree and make me extremely insecure. I know they're supposed to help but they don't help me, those blocks and rolls are in the way and you loose contact with your horse.

I also think that blocks/rolls are not really helping out the newer riders and puts them in a less than technically correct position. But then again, what ever works for the rider as long as you stay out of the way of your horse. I don't really care how someone gets over the jump as long as they stay out of the way!



I'm the same way. My first-and only-saddle was a 30+ year old Prestwick saddle that my uncle gave me. It is flatflatflat. Which can be a real pain when I'm in the saddle for over 5 hours, but I love that I started in it! I think it helped me learn not to depend on extra leather to keep my seat. :winkgrin:

[dalpal]

Okay....I'm learning alot about hunter/jumper form..loving the thread.

Also love the Ocala thread because I was able to find our equine vet's pictures :D

http://www.photostockplus.com/home.php?user_id=34487&tmpl=56&event=262247&action=viewphoto&album_id=262351&rank=25&pcount=45