Christian Ahlmann to CAS tomorrow

[canyonoak]

Long long ago in a galaxy not so far away, the event known as "Hong Kong" took place.

Approximately 196 days ago, maybe 200, but who's really counting, right?

And the Great Doping Sting was set up, fizzled, and caught 6 riders in Medication A offenses that the FEI Tribunal basically begged the FEI not to pursue.
So the FEI Tribunal handed out suspensions--ranging from time already gone by for Courtney King-Dye, and 3 months to a high of 4 1/2 months for the jumper riders (Pessoa, ALves, Lynch,Hansen and Ahlmann).

But here we are, and the German FN has grimly taken its case to the CAS (Court of Arbitration for Sport) , demanding MORE punishment for Christian Ahlmann.

So tomorrow is the big day of reckoning at CAS and I plan to set aside a few breaths in honor of Christian Ahlmann and all the stupid, useless, wasteful, superfluous and unnecessary grief the FN continues to cause.

Here's to Ahlmann--whatever he did or did not do, he has been punished and life ought to move on.

[MEP]

So tomorrow is the big day of reckoning at CAS and I plan to set aside a few breaths in honor of Christian Ahlmann and all the stupid, useless, wasteful, superfluous and unnecessary grief the FN continues to cause.

Here's to Ahlmann--whatever he did or did not do, he has been punished and life ought to move on.
__________________

I'll be right there with you, hoping the CAS throws the blankety-blank case out!

[Kareen]

I don't understand you folk. Do you approve of Doping? Don't you find this has caused the sport and horse-industry as a whole an enormous loss of respect and credibility?
I can only speak for Germany but the general public here is rather non-amused. Maybe in N.A. you see things differently because you are used to being ignored or even looked down upon by the non-horsey public. But to us here this is a rather new experience and I for my part hate to see the public support we've had in this country for the industry over a few hundred years put at the stakes by some ignorant moron who apparently can not read or does not care to read the existing regulations. Sorry but this is so far beyond my understanding, I am out.

[ridgeback]

I don't understand you folk. Do you approve of Doping? Don't you find this has caused the sport and horse-industry as a whole an enormous loss of respect and credibility?
I can only speak for Germany but the general public here is rather non-amused. Maybe in N.A. you see things differently because you are used to being ignored or even looked down upon by the non-horsey public. But to us here this is a rather new experience and I for my part hate to see the public support we've had in this country for the industry over a few hundred years put at the stakes by some ignorant moron who apparently can not read or does not care to read the existing regulations. Sorry but this is so far beyond my understanding, I am out.

Of course the German's are not amused when are they ever:winkgrin: I can assure you the general public does not look down on horse people in this country...ignore probably:lol: This case is stupid and the fact your country keeps bringing it up is hurting the sport more then if they had dropped it after the initial ruling. :no::no::no:

[freestyle2music]

The Ahlman case is a little bit different than the Beerbaum case, but IMHO Ahlman is punished now by the German Federation of fighting back, while this same federation pampered Beerbaum in his doping case.

Didn't we have a same kind of situation in Holland, Anky can do what she wants and when a student of Coby made a mistake in lunging P&P they were taken to court by our National Federation. I hope for Ahlman this case will end the same as in the Power and Paint case, where the Dutch National Federation was forced by the Court to free Coby and her student from all accussations and publish this verdict on their websites and in their magazines.

It's obvious that Christan Ahlman had stepped on the very long toes of some people in the FN.:yes::yes:.

Theo

[Kareen]

BS excuse me. the only thing that is quite obvious in it is that Ahlmann considers himself superior and worthy of a blank wild card to do whatever he pleases. His press statement was also quite pathetic as it revealed a complete lack of comprehension and self-critizism. It's not the fault of anybody in the FN that he's unable or unwilling to read the medication rules. It's his fault alone and he is rightfully charged. There have been huge petitions in this country to get the man permanently banned from showing as many equestiran professionals and amateurs feel he is doing tremendous harm to the view the public takes on equestrian sports altogether.
Why do you think the German equestrian scene grossly appreciates the charges? Must be because we are all sour because we didn't win anything much like this uniglobal explanation for why people disagree with the way some riders train or ride *LOL*.

[ridgeback]

Y'all can handle it any way you want and you are but that doesn't change the fact many think Germany is overreacting...JMO I'd bet if this was Ludger it wouldn't be handled the same...again JMO

Christian if the German's throw you under the bus you can come to the U.S. and start over heck we won the gold this year:)

[freestyle2music]

Kareen : Just tell me one thing !

4 riders were caught on using the same substance during the HongKong Olympics.

Why should CA be punished with 2+ years and the rest with 3 to 5 months.

When I read the German Dressage forums about this topic I also read that they think it is :....ridiculous...............

Also, das ist nun echt alles mehr als lächerlich...

Theo

[freestyle2music]

Allthough the hearing this morning toke over 7 hours.
The CAS stated they will need more time come to a
conclussion in this case.

En de boer hij ploegde voort ;)

Theo

[Coreene]

En de boer hij ploegde voort ;)

Theo:lol: :lol: :lol: !!!

[MEP]

I don't understand you folk. Do you approve of Doping? Don't you find this has caused the sport and horse-industry as a whole an enormous loss of respect and credibility?


Kareen:

I can only speak for myself, and I don't speak German, so I can't follow the ins and outs of this specific case in the German equestrian press or bulletin boards, but I do have strong opinions about doping.

First, I think that the FEI has gone way overboard in it's zero tolerance policy (and if I can ascribe intent to an institution, I'd guess that they are trying to impress the IOC in their zealous effort to make the sport "squeaky clean"). While we all recognize that there is doping and that unscrupulous people will cheat, the FEI has gone beyond the the obvious need to guard the equine athletes from this threat to interfering with a responsible horseman's ability to manage his horse on a day to day level under a rigorous regime of competition. Even human Olympic athletes are allowed mild anti-inflammatory therapies - why shouldn't the horses be allowed the same consideration?

Second, I think a lot of people here object to the way the FEI handled the capsaicin issue: They could have announced that they would be testing systemically for it, but they didn't - it appeared as if they were trying to trap people. Even though capsaicin has been on the banned list for some time, as I understand it, the testing regime prior to the Olympics looked for the substance as a sensitizing method (on the legs) rather than in the bloodstream. So, no excuses, riders shouldn't have been using it, but apparently it had be "tolerated" prior to the Olympics. Further, even the FEI tribunals explanation for the punishments handed down stated that there are legitimate therapeutic uses for the substance.

So, to answer your second question, I believe the FEI itself set up a situation that "has caused the sport and horse-industry as a whole an enormous loss of respect and credibility" and that the FN's decision to continue to pursue punishment for C.A. just drags this out more - they're making the sport and the individual look worse for a very minor infraction.

Third, as I understand it, Christian Ahlman stated that at the final "inspection" taken by the FN of all riders' equipment going to Hong Kong, he placed the package of the substance on the table and it was not commented on or removed by whoever was doing the inspection. I may not have the facts clear there, but I understood that's one of the reasons he objected to the FN's move to sanction him further.

Fourth, I suspect that a lot of us mere followers of the sport wonder what he did to cause the FN to make such a big stink about this? He has been a solid member of the squad for years now. I don't know his reputation in Germany, maybe he's considered a "bad boy" -- but I sure never got that impression though!

So, to answer your first question, No, I don't approve of doping - in fact I'm completely against it! But I feel the FEI should go get the guys who are using performance enhancing substances rather than mildly beneficial therapies!

I know that this leaves a grey area - drawing the line between enhancement and therapeutic - and that many people are uncomfortable with grey areas. But, I feel that clear-cut distinction between doping and therapy can and should be made, so that caring and responsible horsemen can be allowed, and encouraged, to take the best care of those special animals that have the ability to compete at the highest levels of the sport.

[Kareen]

You guys create complicated questions where the solution is rather obviously lying at hand. Ad 1) Ahlmann did not put anything on the table before he was caught. Ad 2) Capsaicin has as you rightly say been a banned substance for quite a long time. Are you suggesting the doping authorities should have given out a warning 'dopers please stay away from Capsaicin from now on, we can finally detect it and will test for the coming x years'? I must say that would be quite a funny approach towards doping-control *LOL*.
I don't approve of double standards. I absolutely do approve of a rigorous anti-doping approach because as long as the zero tolerance rule is in place internationally it's simply illegal to apply listed substances without declaring them properly.
What you call a mildly beneficial therapy could in fact have been abusive practice of blistering and since no samples were ever taken from the horse's feet (wonder why...) there is no proving right or wrong.
If the rules only apply to a selection of people (those who do not compete at the top) how much credibility does the sport really have? It also makes you wonder why despite grossly advanced veterinary methods and the 'super care' those top athletes alledgedly get they don't in average hold up as long as they used to and 'medical maintenance' has nowadays become a widely accepted necessity.
If horses don't hold up on their own in the sport with care and considerate training (and just that!) it's the sport that needs to change, not the medication rules.
There are a few developments to go along with commercial equestrian sport we are facing today which are simply not beneficial and need changed. For instance it is near impossible for a top level jumper to get a winter break (meaning a time where he is trained off and turned away for just light work and no jumping before training up and showing again). Another detrimental development is the intern. young horse circuit. Horses aren't given time to mature but are worn out in young horse classes that are way too stressful and the increased travelling adds to the stress of adult equine athletes tremendously which is paid little to no respect to.
If we soften up on medication horses are consequently exposed to an even higher level of stress for the sake of the top-sport which can not responsibly be justified.
Good horsemanship would be to allow the top competitor a break when he needs one. But this would be more cost effective than applying some ointment containing a listed substance or keeping him on 'mild antiinflammatories' (whatever you consider those to be).
The mild antiinflammatories you are talking about all have significant adverse effect potential much like any other drug depending on the doseage and frequency of 'use'.
There is no indication for any medically effective substance but a medical condition. And horses having medical conditions should not show. It's as simple as that.
The number of limping horses in international competition is appalling - medication or not. If we equestrians don't address this, someone else will. I would think part of why Peta doesn't have such a foothold in this country as it does in the US is because we have generally stricter regulations for animal welfare here. Come to think of it, didn't Peta originate in the US?!

[Coreene]

Of course, now that Stella Artois seems to be his new beer of choice, how long until until he's riding under the Belgian flag? ;)

[Kareen]

You know what I don't care as long as he keeps his horse off medication while it is showing. I won't shed a tear if he leaves. Most riders show where it is most convenient for them, I wouldn't blame him, he needs to make a living and I have no idea whether he has learned a job beside riding. If Belgium will have him I thank them well and wish him good luck. May he be smarter about his 'maintainance' strategies of choice in the future ;)

[ridgeback]

MEP you couldn't have said it better..:)

[MEP]

You guys create complicated questions where the solution is rather obviously lying at hand. Ad 1) Ahlmann did not put anything on the table before he was caught.
This was according to Ahlmann's account: Someone associated with the team managers inspected all the equipment. Plus there was a pre-travel final blood test - and in both those instances he maintains he was not informed he was doing something wrong. If you're saying he's lying, well, I don't have any information other than his statement. Unfortunately, I tend to believe him.
Ad 2) Capsaicin has as you rightly say been a banned substance for quite a long time. Are you suggesting the doping authorities should have given out a warning 'dopers please stay away from Capsaicin from now on, we can finally detect it and will test for the coming x years'? I must say that would be quite a funny approach towards doping-control *LOL*.
Yes, actually I do think they should have made that announcement, because they do make major announcements about how they are running the testing programs at major events. The testing program is not a game of chance - this substance, as written in the FEI tribunals findings, has both therapeutic as well as sensitizing properties.

I don't approve of double standards. I absolutely do approve of a rigorous anti-doping approach because as long as the zero tolerance rule is in place internationally it's simply illegal to apply listed substances without declaring them properly.
because as long as the zero tolerance rule is in placeThis is my point: The zero tolerance rule needs to be changed! and as far as i know, there is no way to declare "illegal" substances properly.
What you call a mildly beneficial therapy could in fact have been abusive practice of blistering and since no samples were ever taken from the horse's feet (wonder why...) there is no proving right or wrong.
There was in fact a way to prove it: as part of the testing protocol the FEI had listed equipment that they could use to detect topical applications on the legs - they opted apparently not to use this equipment, so could not distinguish where the capsaicin had be applied on the horse (back and muscles = therapeutic, lower legs = sensitizing. The FEI did not follow it's own protocol. Too bad.

If the rules only apply to a selection of people (those who do not compete at the top) how much credibility does the sport really have? It also makes you wonder why despite grossly advanced veterinary methods and the 'super care' those top athletes alledgedly get they don't in average hold up as long as they used to and 'medical maintenance' has nowadays become a widely accepted necessity.
If horses don't hold up on their own in the sport with care and considerate training (and just that!) it's the sport that needs to change, not the medication rules.
In my experience, there are loads of reasons why horses may not stand up over time: bad footing, conformational weaknesses, improper shoeing. I don't think that moderate use of mild anti-inflammatories or topical liniments are the primary culprits.

There are a few developments to go along with commercial equestrian sport we are facing today which are simply not beneficial and need changed. For instance it is near impossible for a top level jumper to get a winter break (meaning a time where he is trained off and turned away for just light work and no jumping before training up and showing again). Another detrimental development is the intern. young horse circuit. Horses aren't given time to mature but are worn out in young horse classes that are way too stressful and the increased travelling adds to the stress of adult equine athletes tremendously which is paid little to no respect to.
If we soften up on medication horses are consequently exposed to an even higher level of stress for the sake of the top-sport which can not responsibly be justified.
Good horsemanship would be to allow the top competitor a break when he needs one. But this would be more cost effective than applying some ointment containing a listed substance or keeping him on 'mild antiinflammatories' (whatever you consider those to be).
The mild antiinflammatories you are talking about all have significant adverse effect potential much like any other drug depending on the doseage and frequency of 'use'.
There is no indication for any medically effective substance but a medical condition. And horses having medical conditions should not show. It's as simple as that.

Again, in my experience, it is impossible for a mild anti-inflammatory or liniment to mask a medical or soundness condition. I also think that most of the high level competitors - those that are good horsemen and who practice sound management programs find ways to give their horses appropriate time off.
The number of limping horses in international competition is appalling - medication or not. If we equestrians don't address this, someone else will. I would think part of why Peta doesn't have such a foothold in this country as it does in the US is because we have generally stricter regulations for animal welfare here. Come to think of it, didn't Peta originate in the US?!
Oh, yes, Peta isdefinitely USA grown, but they took much of their inspiration and tactics from radical European animal rights groups, didn't they??? ;)

[canyonoak]

Christian Ahlmann, along with the other jumper riders, was found guilty of a Medication A offense, because at the time of the drug test and the FEI tribunal decision, and the EVIDENCE presented -- that is all that was proven. It was easy to prove, as Ahlmann explained he had been using it for years, being FEI drug tested on a quite steady basis as he was placing in big competitions.

That is how he got on the German team in the first place.
In fact--that is how ALL the accused jumper riders got on their repsective teams: by competing in the big FEI classes, winning, being drug tested, passing the FEI drug tests, and being picked for their respective teams.

Equi-BLOCK in any form is designed to block the nerve endings, so repeated applications of it would hardly be advisable to make the horse's front legs MORE sensitive.
Of course, the FEI,covering all its bases, claims that it was ALSO wrong of the riders to use capsaicin for its pain-deadening qualities.

But the reality is -- the FEI and the FN both want to get into bed with WADA, the crazed-with-power anti-drug organization that runs Olympic sport.

For this, the head FEI vet was fired and replaced 11 days before Hong Kong began.
For this, the ridiculous 'pre-test' was hatched and carried out to 'catch' the dread drug abusers. Of course, this all backfired. It was designed by pinheads.

And all the frou-frah that the FN has employed since that time, making sure to mention WADA/NADA (the national arm of WADA) in every press release, has just rendered their motives ever more visible.

[Kareen]

http://www.focus.de/sport/mehrsport/reiten-springreiten-ahlmann-urteil-erst-in-kuerze_aid_377570.html

http://www.ksta.de/html/artikel/1225702659064.shtml

http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2008/11/03/964655.html

http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2008/11/04/964814.html?cmf=1

http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2008/11/05/965617.html

http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2008/11/11/969893.html

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/0,1518,573496,00.html

http://www.zeit.de/online/2008/35/pferde-doping-ahlmann?from=rss

http://www.n-tv.de/Nach_DopingVorwuerfen_Ahlmann_soll_zahlen/220820083810/1012500.html

http://www.ftd.de/sport/sportmix/pferdesport/:Ahlmann-nach-CAS-Anh%F6rung-zuversichtlich/483233.html

http://www.welt.de/welt_print/article3320905/Die-Reiter-kaempfen-um-ihren-Ruf.html

This is only a small selection from the non-horsey press. Last time we've had this degree of negative public press attention was in '96 during the polling affair and I'll be quite happy to see the back of it because if you are trying to tell me this is not damaging the industry I think you are simply wrong.
There is so much screaming and whining on here about why equestrian sport isn't getting enough media attention in N.A. I think I know now. Because many N.A. based equestrians seem to think they are out of bounds.
Here riding is part of the country lifestyle. That's why so many people breed and you find local horseshows in every corner of the most rural places. I'd love to keep it that way and if it means to let go of a few self-righteous jumper riders I'll happily sacrifice those if I can keep the cosy feeling of seeing non-horsey spectators at horse-shows and having crowds at the stallion parades and busloads of school children smiling happily etc.
To hell with commercial sports it ruins just about everything sport has ever been about. What about fairness, ethics, trying the best you can, the skill of losing with grace...

[Donella]

Amen Kareen. At the end of the day, if your horse can't make it through the competition without the use of illegal substances, then perhaps you should be questioning why you are there in the first place. The last thing we need is for our sport to turn lax like the breed show industry where disregard for the treatment of the horses (tail peppering, blood letting, denerving ect ect) is almost commonplace. It's pretty flipping simple, don't, under any circumstances whatsoever, use banned substances in any amount (not exactly neuroscience here). If you have eyes and you can read, should be pretty simple!

In these situations, the horses should come first, always, no exceptions.

[ridgeback]

IMO have a zero tolerance is not putting the horse first...human olympians can use some anti-inflammatories.

I'm pretty confident if Ludger Beerbaum can lose the gold medal for Germany Christian won't shut down all horse sport in Germany.

[Kareen]

You are right but that's not the point. And I can understand you don't give a lot about horse-sport in Germany. I was merely trying to point out why the German FN took this approach and why it is not as ridiculous as some may think it is.

[Sebastian]

MEP -- WELL SAID!!!

IMHO, the zero tolerance policy of the FEI is in and of itself -- abusive. And, while I understand the argument that we don't necessarily know when "therapeutic" becomes "enhancement" -- if the stupid FEI would just come up with a consistent guideline of "reasonable" amounts, the playing field would at LEAST be level.

To expect equine athletes to compete at the PINNACLE of the sport without ANY benefit from herbal OR modern medication is absurd. It's no wonder our (collective) horses are breaking down left and right... As it stands they can receive NOTHING but hay and water. It's ridiculous.

The "bleeding hearts" are literally loving our horses to DEATH!!
Seb :)

[canyonoak]

It just does not seem so complicated to me.

You do the test.

So many zeros to the right of the decimal point= clean.

one to two zeros less = gray zone and PR can argue it out.

Fewer zeros to the right of the decimal point, and the horse has been given whatever it is.

The ELISA test used by the labs these days (and this has been pointed out ad nauseum) does NOT test for the substance but rather shows the antibodies created in the presence of the substance or something very like it. Surely, parameters can be figured for horses in much the same way they are figured for humans.

AS has also been pointed out ad nauseum, human (Olympic) athletes are allowed all sorts of NSAID's. I even printed the list . Twice.

FWIW, reading a bunch of German newspapers, all quoting from the same press conference and the same press releases is about as useful as reading the versions in English: ie, sad that no one seems to want to bother to actually do any real research.

I can only hope that FEI and CAS wake up and start thinking about the future of horse sport.

[MEP]

It just does not seem so complicated to me.

You do the test.

So many zeros to the right of the decimal point= clean.

one to two zeros less = gray zone and PR can argue it out.

Fewer zeros to the right of the decimal point, and the horse has been given whatever it is.

The ELISA test used by the labs these days (and this has been pointed out ad nauseum) does NOT test for the substance but rather shows the antibodies created in the presence of the substance or something very like it. Surely, parameters can be figured for horses in much the same way they are figured for humans.

AS has also been pointed out ad nauseum, human (Olympic) athletes are allowed all sorts of NSAID's. I even printed the list . Twice.

FWIW, reading a bunch of German newspapers, all quoting from the same press conference and the same press releases is about as useful as reading the versions in English: ie, sad that no one seems to want to bother to actually do any real research.

I can only hope that FEI and CAS wake up and start thinking about the future of horse sport

What she said! ;)

[slc2]

We may have to try and understand that there might be a lot about Ahlman that we don't know. Sure, it's possible that someone in the organization has a personal dislike of him, but it's also possible that the opposite is true, that the organization has a legitimate reason for treating him differently.

Think of it this way. There are two sides to this. Sure, someone may bear him a grudge, but it's also possible that no one gets to act irresponsibly, even if they ARE a long term team member. Imagine what it would take to knock an established rider despite him doing years of team riding. If you turn it around the other way, it suggests there is something very right with the system, not something very wrong.

Kareen, you have to try and understand WHY you are getting the American reaction you are getting:

1. One of our riders got busted for her horse testing positive for Felbenac

2. Another one of our horses behaved very, very untypically at the Olympics and this horse and rider are also adored all over the USA.

3. Another one of our horses many americans believe was scored unfairly low.

Americans are really smarting after these Olympics.

This IMMEDIATELY colors nearly everyone's reactions to the international scene. People went completely crazy when this happened. The person who this happened to, Courtney King-Dye, is adored here in the USA. People IMMEDIATELY jumped on every organization, drug testing lab, rule and regulation, and declared them all null and void, corrupt, etc. Now all of a sudden, EVERY drugging case is unfair, every positive test is unfair, all the organizations are unfair and playing favorites, everyone in them doesn't have a brain in their heads.

Many believe that small amounts of a substance are a very different matter from large amounts. Many believe that small amounts should be allowed (just look at the rules our FN had for years and you will see why they think that). Many believe that it is possible to establish a minimum amount, and fair to do so.

The fact that small amounts can test positive has riled up people even more. They assume that if the horse tested positive (an American horse anyway), it HAS to be because of some casual contact or mistake of someone else, not an American trainer, groom or rider intentionally applying the substance, and certainly there would never be a small amount detected because someone wiped the substance away before the test was done, it must be an accident.

The OTHER thing to understand is our FN has a very, very different approach to medications than the FEI, and has for many, many years, people have grown up believing anti inflammatory medication is a 'help to keep the horse in the ring', not cheating or performance enhancing. Too, I am not sure people understand how much anti inflammatories and topical medications affect performance. They are not used for no reason.

[ridgeback]

We may have to try and understand that there might be a lot about Ahlman that we don't know. Sure, it's possible that someone in the organization has a personal dislike of him, but it's also possible that the opposite is true, that the organization has a legitimate reason for treating him differently.

Think of it this way. There are two sides to this. Sure, someone may bear him a grudge, but it's also possible that no one gets to act irresponsibly, even if they ARE a long term team member. Imagine what it would take to knock an established rider despite him doing years of team riding. If you turn it around the other way, it suggests there is something very right with the system, not something very wrong.

Kareen, you have to try and understand WHY you are getting the American reaction you are getting:

1. One of our riders got busted for her horse testing positive for Felbenac

2. Another one of our horses behaved very, very untypically at the Olympics and this horse and rider are also adored all over the USA.

3. Another one of our horses many americans believe was scored unfairly low.

Americans are really smarting after these Olympics.

This IMMEDIATELY colors nearly everyone's reactions to the international scene. People went completely crazy when this happened. The person who this happened to, Courtney King-Dye, is adored here in the USA. People IMMEDIATELY jumped on every organization, drug testing lab, rule and regulation, and declared them all null and void, corrupt, etc. Now all of a sudden, EVERY drugging case is unfair, every positive test is unfair, all the organizations are unfair and playing favorites, everyone in them doesn't have a brain in their heads.

Many believe that small amounts of a substance are a very different matter from large amounts. Many believe that small amounts should be allowed (just look at the rules our FN had for years and you will see why they think that). Many believe that it is possible to establish a minimum amount, and fair to do so.

The fact that small amounts can test positive has riled up people even more. They assume that if the horse tested positive (an American horse anyway), it HAS to be because of some casual contact or mistake of someone else, not an American trainer, groom or rider intentionally applying the substance, and certainly there would never be a small amount detected because someone wiped the substance away before the test was done, it must be an accident.

The OTHER thing to understand is our FN has a very, very different approach to medications than the FEI, and has for many, many years, people have grown up believing anti inflammatory medication is a 'help to keep the horse in the ring', not cheating or performance enhancing. Too, I am not sure people understand how much anti inflammatories and topical medications affect performance. They are not used for no reason.

Kareen don't listen to SLC:no:

[MEP]

I have been opposed to the FEI zero tolerance policy since Ludger Beerbaum lost the gold medal for Germany because he used an antibacterial (corrected to say, it was a cortico-steroid) ointment/cream on a rub-sore. That was absurd. The US ended up with the gold medal. They earned the silver. I was very pleased that they earned the silver, but disappointed that they got the gold because someone was punished for appropriately treating his horse. That never should have happened.

Medical findings in humans in recent years have shown that inflammation is a major underlying cause of many diseases and degenerative processes. Nevermind that the US NF allows small doses of anti-inflammatories, but the IOC allows mild anti-inflammatories for human athletes - I don't see why they should not be allowed for horses.

[Kareen]

Ehm that's not quite what happened. First of all it was a corticoid and that alone makes you wonder: Why put a corticoid externally on a rub-sore *LOL*
I'll not go into detail about all the rest but the bottom line is if your horse needs any kind of performance-enhancing medication during a given test, it is not prepared correctly and shouldn't compete.
If horses can't stay sound during competition it's the competition that needs altering, not the horse needing drugs.
To be quite honest I don't eat the argument that humane athletes are allowed all kinds of things. They can decide for themselves. Our horses have no choices therefor we are responsible and as long as the zero tolerance exists being caught with a positive test in A and B sample means nothing else but you haven't played by the rules.
I am really apalled by how many excuses people tend to find when the absolute goal to win is at the stakes :(
Whether or not oneself should pop an advil if not feeling 100% is one question everybody may judge for themselves. Whether or not it is ok for a horse to show on NSAID's (which all with no exception have serious adverse-effect-potential) is a question completely apart and should not be influenced by cultural considerations or habitually tolerated drug ab/use really. *shock*

[Fixerupper]

To expect equine athletes to compete at the PINNACLE of the sport without ANY benefit from herbal OR modern medication is absurd. It's no wonder our (collective) horses are breaking down left and right... As it stands they can receive NOTHING but hay and water. It's ridiculous.

The "bleeding hearts" are literally loving our horses to DEATH!!
Seb :)

yup

[MEP]

Ehm that's not quite what happened. First of all it was a corticoid and that alone makes you wonder: Why put a corticoid externally on a rub-sore *LOL*
yes, I did look it up and it was Betamethasone:
Betamethasone is a moderately potent glucocorticoid steroid with anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressive properties. Unlike other drugs with these effects, betamethasone does not cause water retention. It is applied as a topical cream, ointment, foam, lotion or gel to treat itching (e.g. from eczema). Betamethasone sodium phosphate is sometimes prescribed as an intramuscular injection (I.M) for itching from various ailments including allergic reactions to poison ivy and similar plants.

So, while it might not have been what *I would* put on a rub sore, I'm going to guess it was to prevent swelling. Wow, take him out and shoot him for trying to prevent swelling.


I'll not go into detail about all the rest but the bottom line is if your horse needs any kind of performance-enhancing medication during a given test, it is not prepared correctly and shouldn't compete.
This was not a performance enhancing medication by anyone's stretch of the imagination.

If horses can't stay sound during competition it's the competition that needs altering, not the horse needing drugs.
To be quite honest I don't eat the argument that humane athletes are allowed all kinds of things. From what I have read, human athletes are allowed to use low doses of specified mild drugs. Nothing Performance Enhancing. They can decide for themselves. Our horses depend on us to make ALL decisions for them. Our horses have no choices therefor we are responsible and as long as the zero tolerance exists being caught with a positive test in A and B sample means nothing else but you haven't played by the rules. I'll say it again, the zero tolerance policy should no longer exist. Yes, people got caught, and yes, they have been punished for breaking a rule that in my opinion, should be removed. That's not an excuse for those that have already been caught and punished, but they have received their punishment under an unfair and unwise rule so leave them alone.
I am really apalled by how many excuses people tend to find when the absolute goal to win is at the stakes :(
Whether or not oneself should pop an advil if not feeling 100% is one question everybody may judge for themselves. Whether or not it is ok for a horse to show on NSAID's (which all with no exception have serious adverse-effect-potential) key word here is potential. If used judicially, they are beneficial in reducing the risk of long-term side effects from inflammation - if abused, everything has the potential to have adverse side effects. is a question completely apart and should not be influenced by cultural considerations ???? Whose culture? Not quite sure what you're getting at here. or habitually tolerated drug ab/use really. *shock*

I guess what I find most shocking, is that people expect horses to do much of anything, let alone compete at the highest levels, without benefit from herbal OR modern medication as so well stated by Seb.

[Fixerupper]

The whole controversy regarding medicating top level horses is such a bunch of crap... the easy answer is 'give them time off' and yet the $$money$$ (prize money) spent to reward the top level horses competing year round keeps increasing. The simple answer is rules to limit the number of competitions within a given time frame that any one horse is allowed to compete in. If the NF's and the FEI would step up to the plate on that kind of rule it would take the pressure off the trainers and riders. If a rider has sponsorship from any source that is not a 'horse lover' there is relentless pressure to win win win, and how many 'horse lovers' sponsor top level riders/horses? Even the breeders have a vested interest in having their get out there competing.
If the simple answer is 'don't compete so often' then make that the rule. Don't try to enforce it through the back door by blaming medication as the problem.
Whew...glad I got that off my chest :D

[tm]

All zero tolerance policies are simply a license for governing bodies to not have to actually think. Or use good judgement. Or common sense.

[Fixerupper]

Yup.. the tail wagging the dog....

[Fixerupper]

Unfortunately... not out of steam yet ;) - if the NFs and FEI made a 'limited competition' rule they could justify the zero tolerance medication rule! If a given horse can't be 'made sound' in a reasonable time frame - most minor/moderate injuries will heal within a 2 to 3 month time frame with rest. Then a 'no meds' rule starts to make sense - no flogging of dead horses - then you can separate the 'wheat from the chaff'.

All right - I'm done...honest

[Kareen]

Exactly my point. Besides it doesn't really matter whether you are a GP jumper or a pony-clubber, if you get a rub-sore someone hasn't paid enough attention to properly fitting, clean attire or you have been plain and simple overworked. Both of which should not result in putting on whatever-corticoid-or-else ointment but to a period of rest until healing. $$ rules and if the horse's best interest gets in the way it'll be trampled by your oh so ribbon-keen fans much like prescribtion happy veterinarian colleagues. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. Common sense is best applied where regulations fail. Such nonsense could easily be stopped by simple regulations (as in limited number of starts per anno). But wait - this could get in the way of $$ again so let's forget about it. The argument could have quite a funny potential if it wasn't quite so unpleasant truth...

[ridgeback]

Exactly my point. Besides it doesn't really matter whether you are a GP jumper or a pony-clubber, if you get a rub-sore someone hasn't paid enough attention to properly fitting, clean attire or you have been plain and simple overworked. Both of which should not result in putting on whatever-corticoid-or-else ointment but to a period of rest until healing. $$ rules and if the horse's best interest gets in the way it'll be trampled by your oh so ribbon-keen fans much like prescribtion happy veterinarian colleagues. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. Common sense is best applied where regulations fail. Such nonsense could easily be stopped by simple regulations (as in limited number of starts per anno). But wait - this could get in the way of $$ again so let's forget about it. The argument could have quite a funny potential if it wasn't quite so unpleasant truth...

We have a PITA lover here no point in trying to talk sense into her. :lol::lol::lol:

[Fixerupper]

On the other hand - does pulling a horse out of competition for a rub really make sense?? Let's not put too fine a point on it....

[lilleblaa]

Hi, lurker here...

I dont think it has been mentioned before, but the amount capcasin found in Hansens horse was 52 picogram, so 0.000 000 000 052 grams. Im not an expert, but... hom much does a horse weight in comparison? around 500 kg at least (?), 500 000 g...

And Courtneys case too, it just seems a bit strange to be disqualified for a few nanograms of handcream or ultrasound cream...

I think FEI should find limits and drop the 0 tolerance, how many 0s is it really possible to obtain, sooner or later even better metodes of testing will be discovered and if that horse as near someone eating potatochips, sorry there goes that medal...

[Sebastian]

Hi, lurker here...

I dont think it has been mentioned before, but the amount capcasin found in Hansens horse was 52 picogram, so 0.000 000 000 052 grams. Im not an expert, but... hom much does a horse weight in comparison? around 500 kg at least (?), 500 000 g...

And Courtneys case too, it just seems a bit strange to be disqualified for a few nanograms of handcream or ultrasound cream...

I think FEI should find limits and drop the 0 tolerance, how many 0s is it really possible to obtain, sooner or later even better metodes of testing will be discovered and if that horse as near someone eating potatochips, sorry there goes that medal...

My point exactly. None of us advocate the "prescription happy vet." But, saying a horse shouldn't compete because of a rub is just as absurd.

Seb :)

[Fixerupper]

There is an ad hoc vet committee currently reviewing the FEI medication rules (if you feel like it you can find it on the FEI website - I can't be bothered to spend the time searching that very complicated site at the moment :cool: ) The USA's own Dr. Tim Ober is one of the members. (Maybe an email might be in order??)

We can only hope that the committee will see through the PETA PITA BS (how's that for acronyms) and make the drug testing more 'real world' than 'real science'. Since I was very young child (a long long time ago) the philosophy behind the FEI drug testing reads - if we can find it - it is illegal. As someone else put it here - hay, oats and water... anything else is potentially illegal (potentially...only because they don't have a test for it YET). There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of thought put into what is reasonably therapeutic and what is in fact doping or performance enhancing... I'm sure we are all breathlessly awaiting the day that they can successfully test for Adequan and Legend!!!

How can we take it back from the PETA's and the scientists and make about the horses!?! (she cries ;))

[MEP]

How can we take it back from the PETA's and the scientists and make about the horses!?! (she cries )
:yes::yes::yes: Thank you!