Bates Caprilli CC Panel restuffing

[Jaegermonster]

I have the above mentioned saddle. Today I took my mare to a vet/chiro/massage/acupuncturist due to some issues we have been having, and he also looked at my saddle and was able to pinpoint the problems. Evidently it is in the CAIR panels.
He recommened that I get the panels redone with wool. I have heard of several posters here doing this, and was wondering who you used and how did the saddles turn out when they came back? If you don't want to post here pm's or emails are fine.

[jn4jenny]

Try searching the forum for "bates wool" and choose the "Show Posts" option. Within minutes, I identified at least three forumites who'd had the procedure done, and I'm sure there were more if I cared to keep combing the posts.

When I was exploring that option with my Bates, I found that many saddlers didn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. None of them would quite tell me why, but the answer was usually along the lines of "The CAIR panels are very difficult to work with."

[Jaegermonster]

I did search but I only found one person, who has already responded to pm I sent. I used different words though so I'll try again, thanks
I was afraid someone would say the saddlers didn't like to fool with it. Other than this issue, which is causing my horse a lot of discomfort the saddle is fine and I like it, so I really would like to get this taken care of.

[Jaegermonster]

ok so I just searched both posts and threads with "bates wool" and "Bates wool" and the only posts I got were yours and mine. Oh well. I'll keep trying, and maybe in the meantime someone else will respond.

[woodstock]

Jaegermonster- Do you mind my asking what your problem is with the fit? I ask because we've been having a heck of a time finding a saddle to fit the medium pony I ride. Of the tons we put on his back, the Caprilli seemed pretty good- the front of the panels (just below the withers/gullet) fit fabulously (started higher up than other saddles, if that makes sense). However, it was so strange- the back part of the panels literally bounced on his back as he walked. At a standstill the fit was fabulous. Tack store "saddle fitter" insisted it was not a problem and that the CAIR would "break-in" and mold to his back. Personally, I was skeptical because I have never, in my years of fitting saddles to strange-backed animals (granted they were the narrow, shark finned TBs rather than the round pony of this instance) had a saddle where the back part of the panels moved up and down as the animal moved. At any rate- we took the saddle back so I could try to ride in it. Wow- it was horrible. I felt like I was floating above his back. Seriously, it was like my balance was completely gone.

So anyhow- just curious whether there was any truth to the panels "breaking in"? (Sorry to hijack and thank you for indulging me :) )

Side note- the Nidersuss dressage saddle I've been borrowing doesn't bounce on his back at all. Hmmmmm.

[Jaegermonster]

No problem, woodstock, you aren't hijacking.
I bought the saddle when my mare was 3, after she fell on my Jaguar (ACK). It fit nicely when it was new and I actually really liked the panels. Well, now she is 6 and after a couple of gullet changes back and forth and so on and her body has matured and changed apparently so has the saddle. the last 6 weeks or so I have had issues with her starting to stop occasionally and also not wanting anyone to sit the canter.

If you turn the saddle upside down and stand it on it's pommel, just about in the middle across both panels parallel to the ground is a line all the way across both of them. And the panels also both bulge out in the very center,like a lump into the horses back, so they are sort of bowed really weird. You really can't see it, but you can feel it, and after the vet showed it to me today it was plain as day.

I had my horse down to a vet today that also does chiro, massage and acupuncture and he showed me the saddle, then the horse and the places where she was the most sore and needed the most work corresponded with those places on the saddle. Apparently what has occurred is the CAIR panels have broken down with time, and this vet says he sees more problems from horses who are ridden with the CAIR saddles than almost any other, and he does not recommend them. Other than that, he said the saddle looked balanced and the gullet width was good, just the panels were shot. I like the saddle and it fits me, and he recommended that it might be worth the $$ to get it stuffed with wool since it was fine in other aspects.

IIRC when I first got my Bates, it did feel kind of floaty and weird, but once I got used to it I started to like it. I guess it grew on me. It broke in nicely and now I really do kind of like it, and it is comfortable.

[mvp]

Woodstock and Jeagermonster--

I bought my Bates Caprilli with the intention of having it reflocked with wool. It was a great decision. For about $1,200 and another $200 for reflocking, I got a good quality saddle that would fit my horse and many others for much less than it would cost to buy a really high-end, wool-flocked saddle.

I loved the changeable gullet system which was new at the time. Since few manufactures of close contact saddles were making wide trees and wide gullets then, the saddle was the best option for my wide-shouldered horse.

I was skeptical of Cair panels for many reasons. I didn't think balloons of air would have the same ability to conform to a horse's back as wool or even high quality foam. They aren't especially bouncy (which would be a serious problem for both horse and rider). But they did seem hard.

I also didn't like or understand how four separate balloons would provide a continuous surface of padding. Since the balloons met right in the center of each panel, I was worried that my horse would not be cushioned right underneath my center of gravity.

I also had no idea how the balloons would last over time. During a discussion with a tack-shop employee at a place that sells a lot of new and used saddles, she suggested that CAIR balloons don't last forever.

So if you like the saddle's geometry for you, and if you like the basic shape of the tree and also the panels for your horse, I think a Bates saddle modified with wool is a great idea. The gussetted panels make it possible to have these saddles flocked with wool. Foam-flocked panels do not offer the same option.

[sunnycher]

About 6 years ago I had mine restuffed. I wasn't planning to do that. The fitter was a gentleman from Utah, I believe, and on his drive from there to a bunch of big barns he worked with several times a year, he stopped in Reno, where we lived at the time.

I had 2 young draft crosses and a shark finned 17 + hand OTTB. I was trying to see if my Bates CC could work on all of them?

Anyway, he did the whole 'fitting' thing, then just suggested we change out the air for wool.
He told me:

1. Air panels really don't protect from pressure 'points', like when you are on an air mattress and you put your knee down to get up, it goes directly to the floor. Same with the panels,

2. There are 2 bladders on each side, one on the front and one at the back, and they meet/overlap in the thinnest part where a saddle would 'bridge. Right there, is not good padding.

3. Wool is bettter, as is will settle into their shape. Over time it will sort of 'mold' to their back.

I found that when he did the change, my saddle felt less 'bouncy' for me to ride. It was still wonderfully soft in the seat, but I felt much closer to the horse.

I need to have it touched up, it's been years, but I'm glad I did it.

BTW, the cair panels came out easily, they are just glued and maybe stapled in a few places (if I remember correctly). No big deal.

Good luck, gina

[fish]

One of my clients bought 2 Bates saddles which he had wool-flocked by the dealer: Rocking B Saddle Shop in Hillsborough, NC, run by Dennis Brooks. He and his son, David (now a County Rep. in addition to all-around saddle fitter) have been doing saddle-fitting/ rebuilding for 15+ years, and do a very nice job.

[monstrpony]

I have a friend who had a Bates dressage saddle changed from Cair to wool, also by Dennis Brooks. She is very happy with it. I discussed this with him once, and I'm pretty sure he said the same thing about the problem spot being at the junction between the front and back bladders, sometimes they overlap a bit and product a ridge in the middle of the panel. Anyhow, it was not a big deal to make the change. I don't recall if I asked the cost, but if I did, it was a couple of hundred $$.

Dennis does really good work, and really seems to understand saddle fit.

[lesson junkie]

I have been out of the tack "biz" for a few years now, so maybe Weatherbeeta has changed the saddle. The Cair panels we saw at the Weatherbeeta Weekend were very thin and high up, right under the seat, with synthetic wool flocking between the panels and the horse. The panels were for shock absorption and comfort, not for fit. The fit was made flexible by the exchangeable gullet for tree size and the wool flocking for back conformation and long lived performance. So unless it's changed since '06, your Bates is wool flocked already.

Our Weatherbeeta rep told us the gullet should be changed by a saddler, because it's easy for a lay person to rearrange the wool flocking and create thick/thin places by accident.

[mvp]

My Caprilli was made well before 2006.

I can't keep up with Weatherbeeta's Master Plans for constantly designing new saddles to keep us bellied up to the bar. (Which saddle description does not advertise the same things-- a narrow twist, optimally balanced seat and long/forward flap to suit the elegantly long legs manufacturers know you have?)

I never thought the leather and velcro whatnot on my Caprilli was all that and a bag of chips. It was fine for $1,200. It's less fine for $2,000-- but then try to find a saddle made of better materials for that amount now.

Still, as I have said elsewhere, if you have to spend close to $2,000 anyway, the inexpensive reflocked Caprilli works... and will for a long time.

[jn4jenny]

Funny you should mention the "mid panel bulge". That's exactly why I dumped my Bates in favor of a Black Country (and eventually an Amerigo). I was absolutely convinced that it pinched my horse at that point on his spine. Ironically, we are now on the hunt for another 17.5" Bates, not unlike the one I used to have, for a Pony Club friend. :lol:

Anyway, here's three more people who had the deed done:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3716125&highlight=bates+wool#post3716125 (referring to Kate at Duchess Saddle and Bridle in New York)

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3505148&highlight=bates+wool#post3505148

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3363929&highlight=bates+wool#post3363929

[Jaegermonster]

So unless it's changed since '06, your Bates is wool flocked already.



I bought my saddle new, and all the paperwork etc was with it. It all says it has the air panels and goes on and on to sing their praises. I think I have found someone who can do it, I have actually used before but she has moved and so. I found her again and she has quite a bit of experience with this with the Bates so I will probably send it to her next week.
Thanks for the responses, it's good to hear so many have done it and been happy with it.

[visorvet]

I have several Bates/Wintec saddles and think they are super-versatile. In October 2008 I purchased a used Bates Caprilli Event saddle that had been switched from Cair to wool flocking by its one-and-only owner. The saddle looks and functions perfectly, and I have not experienced any problems whatsoever. I was pleased to find that, even without restuffing, the fit to my horse was essentially identical to that of my Caprilli Close Contact and Caprilli Dressage saddles. I have heard comments from others that the panels tend to appear overstuffed when switched to wool, but that is not the case for my saddle. I suspect that they look overstuffed when they are overstuffed. The saddle's previous owner said that the work was done by Mary at M&M Tack Shop. Their website is here: http://www.mmtackshop.com/

I think they still do this, as around mid-November or so I called them when I was toying with the idea of converting my dressage saddle. They did not express any kind of reluctance about doing it, and said it is something they do regularly. I think they quoted me around $250 or so, but may be wrong. At any rate, it wasn't hugely expensive - certainly no more than $300, I don't think.

Good luck.

[Jaegermonster]

Thank you so much. I'm glad to hear of another success. I found someone (Ava Vettenburg) and am sending my saddle off tomorrow.

[Orchid]

Sorry to hijack-- but was wondering if anyone has any photos of their Bates after it was restuffed. I'm thinking of going this route, but am a little bit afraid there isn't enough leather there to accommodate the wool.

[pines4equines]

I had my Bates Caprilli restuffed with wool by Smith & Worthington in CT. You can google them. They did a fine job but the saddle just never fit my horse, it is now at the tack store on consignment. It's at Green Valley Tack in NY if you're at all interested. It was a beautiful saddle that made me sit perfectly however, it just never fit my horse even after the wool reflocking.

My horse has a short back and is a bit down hill. He also has those hollows after his withers so I think he was incredibly hard to fit.

[meupatdoes]

Jaegermonster- Do you mind my asking what your problem is with the fit? I ask because we've been having a heck of a time finding a saddle to fit the medium pony I ride. Of the tons we put on his back, the Caprilli seemed pretty good- the front of the panels (just below the withers/gullet) fit fabulously (started higher up than other saddles, if that makes sense). However, it was so strange- the back part of the panels literally bounced on his back as he walked. At a standstill the fit was fabulous. Tack store "saddle fitter" insisted it was not a problem and that the CAIR would "break-in" and mold to his back. Personally, I was skeptical because I have never, in my years of fitting saddles to strange-backed animals (granted they were the narrow, shark finned TBs rather than the round pony of this instance) had a saddle where the back part of the panels moved up and down as the animal moved. At any rate- we took the saddle back so I could try to ride in it. Wow- it was horrible. I felt like I was floating above his back. Seriously, it was like my balance was completely gone.

So anyhow- just curious whether there was any truth to the panels "breaking in"? (Sorry to hijack and thank you for indulging me :) )

Side note- the Nidersuss dressage saddle I've been borrowing doesn't bounce on his back at all. Hmmmmm.

The problem with air panels is explained when you imagine a balloon:
If you squeeze a balloon in one part, what happens? The balloon bulges in a new place. So you just move the pressure point.

Also, iirc, there are two air pockets in the CAIR panels, which overlap right under the seat. So you tend to have a bulge in pressure in the middle.

Add to the above the fact that you have multiple air pockets, which can leak and deflate at different rates over time, and you have many different levels of pressure between the horse's back and the saddle.



As for the OP, I know my saddle fitter has replaced CAIR panels with wool.
She is located in NY, so far from you according to your profile, but maybe she can recommend someone.
www.dutchessbridlesaddle.com