What can we do to bring hunters to the forefront more??

[findlymine]

Ok so back 20 or 30 years ago there where more customers paying the bills on hunters and the jumper ring was just for horses that could not make it as hunters for one reason or the other. Now we see more everybody and there dog backing a jumper because of the prestige of possibly owning a great one and offsettinbg some of the cost. Most horse shows offer a 25k grand prix every week and shows like hits offer a 100k class at the end of the circuit. My question is what can we do more of to promote hunters in the show world besides what the ahjf is doing to further the hunter and bring it back not to the front burner but atleast a long side the grand prix's. Believe you me I love to watch everyone jump those big jumps and race around the course. But, I am a sucker for a horse that pricks his ears and moves out and jumps the jumps happily. Every ones thoughts are welcomed!!!!!

[dghunter]

I don't have any grand ideas but I do prefer hunters to jumpers. I'm a perfectionist and like everything to look picture perfect over fences so the bit slower pace and wider turns fit me much better. I think the hunter derby is a good start to bringing it back. BF likes the jumpers because he can keep track of the scores and such (you either knocked down the pole or you didn't lol) and hates hunters because he has no idea what's going on despite explanations. I also think the handy hunter courses are very, very fun. I think line, diagnol, line, diagnol, maybe a single or two thrown in there gets kind of boring for a lot of people. I think that's where the hunter derby and handy hunter courses are stepping up and filling in those gaps. I've also seen a few shows that have slight bending lines in their hunter courses. So that's always fun. A lot of people always talk about making it more like you are out on a hunt. Just my (probably not at all helpful) two cents :)

[War Admiral]

Change the judging standard? ;)

[ef80]

A large part of it is that we over-specialize as well as "invite everyone to play" today. Horses went in all three rings and weren't locked in to one archetype. We also had an informal, but widely accepted development system for horse and rider. You mastered the basics in the Hunter ring, put on some polish in the Equitation ring and eventually stepped it up to the Jumpers. With this endless amount of sub 3' classes available there is no incentive to really master what you are doing. You can always cruise around in yet another pre-baby-low-schooling-etc division.

[tri]

Because watching hunters go is about the equivilent of watching paint dry. And then add the political issues and you have a slow tortorous death that could be used to break terrorist and might even be legal with the rules of the Geneva Convention.

[chunky munky]

The hunters will never draw the spectatorship that a Grand Prix will. To think that is possible (no matter what you do) is a mistake. I increasingly see that hunter shows and jumper shows are becoming completely different events.** ( Not my choice before you all get crazy) but this appears to be becoming a neccessity at most venues. For the hunters to survive managers need to give the people what they want. People want to ride their own horses these days. They want to feel special, not just invited as the people that pay all the entries so that money can sponsor the jumpers. Most people I have spoken to are tired of the seven ring circus, where nobody gets to watch each other, get their ribbon out of a box.* I believe that* hunter people are looking for the old style boutique horse show, where the social and fun parts were almost as important as the showing itself. I think it is wonderful that people want to excel and go to the highest level of the sport and commend all that do. But they are a small majority. Hunter shows will thrive if they understand who the audience is. Its the riders and their friends and family who want to enjoy their horses, enjoy each others company, win some nice prize money, get photos when they win nice perpetual trophies, get a video of their best round ever and enjoy the parties and all the special things that a special show can give them. Just a thought, but I feel that to survive and thrive that this is where the hunters need to put their emphasis. I like the Derby/ 4' classes too, but those folks are not even the tip of the iceburg when it comes to todays amateurs and people that just want to enjoy the sport.

[danceronice]

Because watching hunters go is about the equivilent of watching paint dry. And then add the political issues and you have a slow tortorous death that could be used to break terrorist and might even be legal with the rules of the Geneva Convention.

ROTFL....something between this and War Admiral's answer. In all seriousness, chunky monkey makes some really good points.

[Eventer13]

Because watching hunters go is about the equivilent of watching paint dry. And then add the political issues and you have a slow tortorous death that could be used to break terrorist and might even be legal with the rules of the Geneva Convention.

So, just send all the ex-Gitmo detainees to the Hampton Classic next year?

As an eventer, and someone who has *some* idea of what I'm watching, I do really like the derbies. I like the varied course, the height, and the natural obstacles. Its nice when the course is a little different for every competitor, not the typical line-diagonal with X number of strides between.

[Paint Hunter/Jumper]

I agree with everything that has been said-- on both sides. As a hunter, I find that it is talked down on by a lot of people, but in reality it is how most of them started! I think that every discipline in the equestrian sport should not be looked as equals, because they are all very different. I think that if people looked at each discipline separately and did not compare them, everyone would be happy :) They are all special in their own way:lol:

[chunky munky]

Amen to that. Let every one enjoy their animal partners in the way that suits them both with no judgements as long as we stay on the correct side of cruelty or abuse. There has always been a "nationalist" element to people believing their discipline is the most highly evolved which seems kind of silly. Having personally competed in several disciplines of horse sports I have never found one particular area in which the overall excellence of the group as a whole raised them above another.

[TrakGeorge]

My friends and family who have watched me over the years prefer the jumpers than the hunters - including my 82 yr. old grandmother!

As everyone has mentioned...it is VERY easy to follow - a timed score pops up and you can keep track who is winning. Jumpers are easy for any one to follow - down rail or extra time = bad round, clear round = good round and on to jump off. . Watching the same perfect hunter course of line, diagonal, line, diagonal is BORING. They like seeing people miss distances, go off course, have rails down - just having more technically challenged courses, which you don't get at local shows. (Cross rail and 2 ft classes get boring after that 18th million one) In jumpers you can have a pink saddle pad and get a little color to the mix (horse and riders are so much easier to follow) unlike where everyone looks the same.

Also people prefer jumpers at my barn as hunters are VERY subjective and in some cases political. We can't afford nice horses who can compete against the fancy A horses. With a jumper you stand a good chance of winning a blue ribbon.

And I hate to say it - your typical backyard rider can't afford good trainers. They get how to kick, run, and turn. They don't care that they are yanking on horses mouths or are causing them to trip over there feet. It is easy to yell "Faster!" :no:

[mvp]

The "Save the Hunters!" movement has a long history. It has included breeding and young horse award programs, an encouragement of "grass roots" local circuits as a way to invite more people into horse showing, national competitions, and finally, derbies. Even derbies aren't entirely new, with past big wigs in the hunter world having called for more "outside courses" at shows.

You could read two recent threads in this forum to get another sense of just what has "caused" the hunter ring's slow implosion. One is "help for not-so-rich eq riders" and the other is "W-2 Ammies and 'industry' vs. 'sport'" (which I started). It could just be me, but I think many people feel priced out of the hunter ring, and perhaps the eq ring as well.

That's too bad because I think both divisions encourage good riding and training in a way that lower-level jumper divisions don't.

What I learned by reading and posting in these threads is that no one wants to talk about it. In fact, some who disagreed with me also seemed to get little mean-spirited and accusatory of "po' folks" who rock the boat. I think the logic is: "Leave things as they are because good horses and good riding trump all.... and maybe you/your horse just don't cut it." Of course if that's because I can't afford a competitive horse or the cost of a show trainer, well, then we return to the economic problem and the implosion of the hunters.

Many people did suggest that I retire to the jumper ring. Smarter competitors, or those less willing to endure criticism while they buck any sort of trend in the hunters already have fled... which is how we got here in the first place. I don't mind disagreement, but I do mind when it gets mean-spirited. So long as suggesting change is met with that kind of attitude, I think the hunters will remain as they are-- controlled by a very few for the benefit of a very few.

[ShannonH93]

These are just my two cents, and as a teenage girl I'm not sure it'll carry the weight as some of the posters. (and I may just be pointing out the obvious)

But I think that trainers are too concerned with losing clients because they aren't having 'fun.' Kids want to go fast and high, and therefore don't learn the proper way to ride, get striding, adjust the striding and give their horse the support they need.

There's the perfect example of this at my current farm, and I love my trainer to death! -But- I think she's too easy on a couple of the kids. They have very nice horses but have no desire to ride them correctly, they just yank them around courses and booting them to "run faster" the whole time.

I, on the other hand, was "raised" by a very strict oldtimer, so I know better than to take your baby straight into the jumpers with the intentions of winning. I am not "jump crazy" and actually value proper horsemanship, riding correctly over basic courses (hunter courses) before adding the technicality of the jumper courses.

So, I supposed to sum it up, people just don't think that the hunter ring is "fun" and are allowed to think that :lol: I would have never been allowed to take a horse that wasn't ready into the jumper ring, even if this horse was to eventually be a jumper.

Maybe I'm just rambling and maybe its just that it makes me sad to see out of control kids in the jumpers (local shows, mind you) and trainers allowing it, all for the sake of a board payment and lesson fees. =/

[luvs2ridewbs]

I think Chunky monkey and MVP made some good points. I do think people feel priced out of the hunters AND there is no decent prize money. So hypothetically, I'm going to spend 100k on a horse that will be judged subjectively with no real, set standard and if I'm lucky, I'll come home with a check for 50 bucks. Whats the motivation? (FWIW, I love the hunters and have shown it for years. But now I'm looking at the prospect of shopping for another hunter, and Is it worth it?)
I do think Derbies are helpful and as the prize money goes up, owners and trainers will be more interested. I also think that we need to bring back the prestige and social aspects to the hunters to encourage people to participate. In order to bring in spectators, we need a written standard. NO more, "thats what the judge felt like pinning today", but instead "that horse fit the ideal hunter standard as outlined by USEF".

[Sukey1971]

Lower entry fees and stabling costs, particularly for the non-prize-money classes such as baby green or limit, would be a start. To this end, shows should work harder to get and use more volunteers. The volunteer coordinators should be people who know how to get, train, and use volunteers. I’ve seen some shows with volunteer coordinators who just want to hang with their own little cliques and get the prestige of being on a committee rather than really getting something done.

More prize money in the top divisions, too. Maybe it is time to get rid of the green divisions and just have a 3'6" open division, and a 4' division. If the 4' division had more prize money than the 3'6" division it would fill. Maybe hunters-only shows would be a good idea, because if the hunters did not have to subsidize the jumpers’ prize money there would be more for the hunters. I’ve seen show prize lists where the A/O Jumper division cost $50 a class but paid $5000 in prize money while the A/O Hunters also charged $50 a class but paid $1500 in prize money.

Better enforcement of certain rules. The drug rules need to be enforced evenly, fairly, and across the board. A few years ago there were a lot of trainers set down for tranq usage, but some of the BNTs who were some of the worst offenders weren’t touched. It is disheartening to many competitors to know that they have to abide by the rules but the BNTs don’t. The amateur rules need to be enforced better as well. It should be the job of the USEF, not the other amateurs, to enforce them. If the USEF can’t be bothered to enforce amateur rules, maybe we should abandon the amateur definition and go to a point system where anyone with over, say 5000 lifetime points rides in one division, anyone with 3000-4999 points rides in another, anyone with under 3000 points rides in a third division. Eventually this would result in the newbies riding against people who don’t show much or win very much, people with more experience and wins riding against each other, and the BNTs riding against each other.

Judging standards need to be high and to be enforced. Judges need to be trained in the standards and trained to take their jobs seriously, and there should be no shortcuts to getting a judge’s license. Prospective judges should have to pay expenses for the first few learner judging assignments themselves and if they show ability and desire, the USEF should help them pay for the rest of the learner judging.

Last but not least we need better PR and education of new riders. I know people who have no idea why it is important for a hunter to jump with its knees above the horizontal. I see a dearth of hunter-related articles in the magazines, COTH included. I stopped taking PH years ago because it became too dumbed-down and dressage-oriented. The few articles I’ve seen in recent years seem to focus on either the ultra-rich or the shoestring budget folks, and almost none focus on the actual training of a hunter. Most hunter riders are somewhere in between the ultrarich and the shoestring budget, and that’s where the focus needs to be. I see a lot of kids talking about doing jumpers when they would probably be much more comfortable in the hunters. I hear young trainers dissing the hunter division when they really don’t understand it. They want to ape the Europeans, who also don’t understand hunters. I know trainers who don’t teach flatwork to their hunter riders. There is such a thing as hunterseat flatwork and it needs to be taught again.

[ohsareee]

I must say, I strongly agree with Shannon. There are many trainers who just value the money in the buisness. They know these parents want results from their buck and the trainer knows that if she puts in minimal time to make maximum profit, these kids could easily go into the jumpers ring and win with a horse that can place its feet and these kids just knowing how to make the horse go and to steer.

But, I have seen many jumpers who have better eq than the kids winning in the eq ring.

I think the problem is many trainers aren't putting in the correct amount of time. You can pick up a hunter "prospect" at an auction for 3grand that has the right movement and with the correct training could beat some of these 100grand horses that are sold to the lazy riders that dont want to train a horse, they want one thats already there.

[mvp]

Sukey1971-- Your idea about creating a life-time point system is faboo! It would do a huge hunk of the job I had intended with my "whack idea" (in the W-2 Ammies thread) that also tried to have comparable people and horses competing against each other. It would certainly be less offensive and easier to legislate than my money-based idea.

This reasonably fair competition what makes a sport fun, right? Boxers, wrestlers and other athletes are sorted into weight classes and that doesn't seem to undermine their sport. Some of that thoughtful handicapping in the hunters might help ours.

People can always diss the hunters as a sport because it is subjective. Accountability and clear explanations from judges would help.

The "even playing field" with respect to drug testing is also needed. I'm glad you brought it up and hope you don't get flamed for mentioning this unsavory topic.

As a competitor, it pisses me off when horses are drugged. Mine got to where he is by slow training that made him understand his job. That's a natural tranquilizer, but it won't allow for the quick training and constant showing that gets someone recognized.

The ethical problem with training by needle aside, it bothers me that the BNTs on the ruling committees of Hunter World are the same people strangely exempt from its rules... the ones they made up!

Power, in general, ought not to be concentrated. But as a dissenting nobody, I think it would be very hard to get into the center of things. That's why I'm happy to hear from people who have novel, thoughtful ideas formed "outside the box."

[luvs2ridewbs]

I agree with the train by needle comments. Whats so ridiculous for the hunters is: in the end, if your horse is too hot for the hunters, don't tranq him. Put him in the jumper ring! There should be no need for trying to get unsuitable horses into this ring.
Also, lets hear more about accountability and transparent judging. I once posted that we should make the judges cards accessable like they do in dressage shows, so people have actual feedback. I don't think your trainer's one opinion after you came out of the ring is enough.

[twobays]

I think the problem is many trainers aren't putting in the correct amount of time. You can pick up a hunter "prospect" at an auction for 3grand that has the right movement and with the correct training could beat some of these 100grand horses that are sold to the lazy riders that dont want to train a horse, they want one thats already there.

I couldn't disagree more. Yes, there are certainly nice horses to be had cheaply and yes, I think some people could use more of a work ethic. But I don't think its fair/reasonable to say that everyone who wants to show can easily go and pick out a prospect and turn it into a 100k horse.

And I resent the idea that anyone who doesn't want to bring along a prospect is "lazy." I'm an adult and I rode plenty of babies/greenies when I was a kid...I just don't have the time (I work) or ability to risk my neck bringing along a baby. If I want to go out and enjoy my made horse, that's my business, and it isn't your place to pass judgment on me.

[dghunter]

Also, lets hear more about accountability and transparent judging. I once posted that we should make the judges cards accessable like they do in dressage shows, so people have actual feedback. I don't think your trainer's one opinion after you came out of the ring is enough.

Lol I was just going to post about the dressage scoring when I read your post! I rode dressage for awhile and it was very nice to be able to pick up my test and be like "oh judge thought my circle looked more like an oval" etc... I think hunters should do that. Have a section for each jump and then evaluate the approach and actual jump itself. Then have a separate section for miscellaneous things like missed lead changes or a slight buck in the corner or what not. And they can give you a score out of 10 like in dressage so you know for instance you got 8/10 for getting a little tight to fence 6 or whatever. And then they just add up your points and points possible and whoever has the highest percentage wins. *sigh* if only if only.

[MILOUTE55]

Because watching hunters go is about the equivilent of watching paint dry.

:lol: :yes:

[meupatdoes]

Well, for starters the horse shows could, you know, NOT spread the adult amateur divisions over two days (which is just obnoxious) in the middle of the week.

Old Salem and Monmouth, for example, here's lookin' at you.

[Ajierene]

Judging standards:

I missed championship in my division once because my gelding was just a touch more up (a touch being, he was four years old, off the track a couple of months, still a bit quick but very controllable - NO buck or canter). The other horses looked 'easier'. Oh, sorry, didn't realize I was a hunter or pleasure division....thought it was EQUITATION!!!!

Rules:

Correct me if things have changed, but when I showed in hunter/eq you could not go in short stirrup AND open equitation. You could not go in green horse AND open hunter. So why did this little girl on the perfect pony at a county fair get to take home first for...um...at least 8 divisions! Start with short stirrup equitation, green horse, move on to junior equitation, pleasure horse, open equitation, junior hunter, open hunter....

What ticked me off the most was that in the later divisions the judge stopped pinning the girl. Her mom threw a hissy fit. Girl starts pinning again. These are, what $5 a class - the only show most of the kids get to per year on backyard horses. Why does the snotty girl with a trainer and at least $20K little welsh purpose bred pony get all the ribbons?

Reasons why I left hunters - I still may go to the occasional show here and there, but jumpers, dressage and eventing are much more rewarding. Easy to see how you did and what you need to do to improve.

[findlymine]

Vey interesting thoughts eople keep up the good work!!!! My thing is should we offer more big $$$$ hunter classes to make it more likely that someone would want to pay the bills on a nice hunter like they do the jumpers??

[twobays]

Vey interesting thoughts eople keep up the good work!!!! My thing is should we offer more big $$$$ hunter classes to make it more likely that someone would want to pay the bills on a nice hunter like they do the jumpers??

I don't think that'll make a difference. People don't buy (and support) jumpers in order to make their money back in prize money. Its a prestige thing, having a horse of international quality. At this point, hunters doesn't have an international stage, so the presitge of owning a top hunter isn't the same.

Plus, the horse world already has an elitist image. I don't think striving for a world where rich absentee owners foot the bills for professionally-ridden hunters is something our sport needs/wants. Honestly, its the last thing we need.