pony sires and laminitis

[myhorsehannah]

I have been checking out Welsh pony stallions for breeding to my horse mare this year. I have been surprised to see signs of chronic laminitis in some very popular leading pony sires (which I will not name here). This is my first time breeding to a pony stallion. How common a problem is this? Should I eliminate from consideration a top sire (that is otherwise a perfect match for my mare) because he appears to have foundered?

[Daventry]

For starters, I'm not sure how you can detect chronic laminitis problems in a pony from, I assume you are speaking about photographs. Regardless, I think founder and laminitis can be a problem in ponies, period, not just in pony stallions. Remember, not everyone has the same feeding program, turn-out programs, etc. Obviously, if an older pony is shoved out on grass and allowed to get obese, is predisposed to Cushings or Insulin Resistance, etc. problems can arise. Not everyone is diligent with their animals. "Some" older ponies take a lot more work than others.

We just purchased a new pony stallion who is consistently high up on the USEF Leading Pony Hunter Sire list. He's 22 years old this year. Fortunately for him, his previous owners took wonderful and diligent care of him, and he honestly doesn't look a day over 12!! His diet was well monitored over the years and he wasn't allowed to over graze. I have seen others though that are turned out on 40 acres of grass and left to fend for themselves. They are obviously at a much higher risk for problems.

If you do a search on Google, you should be able to find lots of studies and research articles on the predisposition of laminitis and whether it is inheritable or not. Many studies are now showing that insulin levels correlate with a predisposition of laminitis.

[rideagoldenpony]

I firmly believe that a predisposition towards laminitis is completely heritable.

I totally know what you mean about "seeing it" in pictures. There are certain body types that are the ones that will get it -- while others won't -- and once you've seen it, it becomes really obvious (IMO).

Our ponies live out on lots of grass in the spring. I only currently own one mare that I ever worry about/keep an extra eye on (though she has never foundered). The rest of them, while they of course gain weight on spring grass, do not ever founder, and I've lived here and managed my ponies this way on this farm for over 18 years.

[myhorsehannah]

[QUOTE=Daventry;3922118]For starters, I'm not sure how you can detect chronic laminitis problems in a pony from, I assume you are speaking about photographs.


No, not from photos, I went to see some stallions. Quite easy to detect when there has obviously been some rotation.

[exvet]

There are a few of us who strongly suspect that the predisposition whether insulin resistance is to blame or it turns out to be another component of metabolism is heritable. I owned a welsh cob who's full brother, full sister and dam all foundered prior to the age of 5 - different feeding programs, all highly athletic and all went on to perform/compete. They were/are classic in their symptoms, history & obviously share some specific bloodlines. I was told at the AAEP conference that a study should be coming out later this year or early next year with further information regarding inheritance/genetics and laminitis/insulin resistance.

[goodpony]

I also very much suspect that these predispositions run along certain lines....good on you for going out and looking/deciding for yourself. There is a certain someone in my breed with four very very bad feet and it is NOT obvious in photos unless you KNOW what you are looking at....the individual does pass them on with some consistency---and it never ceases to amaze me the number of folks who aren't even aware of the issue. Ive been amazed by some photos posted here in this forum promoting this and that stallion with unmistakeably missmatched feet--or offset cannons too....apparently this is not a problem for some people. Sorry didn't mean to go so far off topic....again good on you for going and seeing for yourself.

[erinwillow]

Interesting topic!

To start I would also like to re-itterate what many have already highlighted, the fact that sometimes founder is caused by stupid human influences, i.e. too high protein diet, not enough turnout, etc. That being said, I am wondering if folks have an opinion on hoof color/form and founder. For example our stallion and many of his progeny have these black, "hard as nails" hooves that quite literally take care of themselves. We've owned our boy since hes was a year and a half and have never ever had an issue with founder. So, is there any relation to hoof color and type to founer??

[rideagoldenpony]

So, is there any relation to hoof color and type to founer??

My own opinion is that it is a body type issue, vs a hoof issue.

[Daventry]

My own opinion is that it is a body type issue, vs a hoof issue.

I agree that overall "hoof quality" has nothing to do with a predisposition for founder or laminitis. But then, I guess you'd have to check the research literature to see what it says, to be sure. Regardless, ponies with the best hooves and the best body types can easily be made to founder with poor management and/or environmental factors. I'm a firm believer in ponies not needing oats, an abundance of alfalfa or too much grass...especially the older ones. Keeping them exercised, fit and at a good weight will help the older ponies ward off any future problems!

[cottagefarm]

wasn't there a study done on a heard of Welsh ponies and Dartmoor some yrs ago?
I think it was in Virginia at a farm that had beed breeding for many yrs and they (researchers ) did find that laminitic (metabolic) tendencies were inherited to a certain extent.

I'm always very cautious with the management of ponies as they can become butterballs very quickly when the grass starts to emerge in the spring.

Good luck with your search.

[JB]

Absolutely it's a predisposition of ponies in general to be prone to IR, and certain lines specifically to be much more prone to it.

If you go into this knowing this, you can pick lines that are not in the "extra" category, and then feed and manage your foal properly, then you can reduce your chances of causing/allowing laminitis.

[goodpony]

hoof quality and hoof conformation is definitely a heritable characteristic....It is also possible for a severely upright hoof to be predisposed to laminitis do to some pre-existing degree of rotation (wether it be diagnosed club foot, or suspiciously upright angles). There may be more truth in certain "types" being more predisposed to laminitis than others as many pony breeds tend towards shorter more upright pastern/hoof angles....might very well be some combination of 'nature' and 'nurture.'

[VirginiaBred]

wasn't there a study done on a heard of Welsh ponies and Dartmoor some yrs ago?
I think it was in Virginia at a farm that had beed breeding for many yrs and they (researchers ) did find that laminitic (metabolic) tendencies were inherited to a certain extent.

Yes. I'm familiar with that study.

[GAEventer]

wasn't there a study done on a heard of Welsh ponies and Dartmoor some yrs ago?
I think it was in Virginia at a farm that had beed breeding for many yrs and they (researchers ) did find that laminitic (metabolic) tendencies were inherited to a certain extent.

I read the same article. It was published in Equus magazine I believe, and they used the ponies at Farnley Farm as part of their study (I'm guessing it's ok to use the farm's name since it was published in a national magazine). They did find that the ponies inherited particular characteristics and some were predisposed to foundering. Part of the study also stated that some people are keeping ponies too plump because that was what was favored in the hunter ring.

I myself owned a Farnley bred mare, who we had to monitor constantly or she'd balloon. We sold her down in Wellington, and the next time I saw her she was a rolly polly; huge crest, fat hindquarter, no flank....

[Janet]

I remember getting information from the ACPS about a genetic predisposition to founder. IIRC, there was an offer to send in a few mane hairs and they would do DNA analysis, and tell you if the horse had "the gene" which predisposed to founder.

Obviously, horse management has a big part to play. The genetic part is just a predisposition.

[erinwillow]

Janet,

Do you have any further information on this "gentic" predisposition among certain Connie lines? Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

Thanks,
Erin

[Sugarbrook]

A big help in this whole problem with ponies (I am speaking of hunter ponies) is how they are being presented in the ring. I blame the judges. If they are not "hog fat" they are not judged the same as one that is in shape and not "hog fat". I cringe at the ones in the ring in the model (pony finals is a good example) who, to me, look like laminitis waiting to happen. So, in the judges eye, fat wins???? I am no novice to all of this. I have had some get to fat trying to be shown. I have had laminitis. It is a heart break.

I know other breeders will agree with me. I body clipped one today that is 4. I was worried he might be too fat, but took the winter coat off, and he looks great to me, but, as I said a bit ago, he would be too lean for the model. Yikes, what do we do??

[JB]

IMVHO, take this for what it's worth - it's soooo much easier :rolleyes: to get that "fit" look to the neck (ie the crest) with a fat pony, than to actually work the pony hard enough and correctly enough :rolleyes:

[Janet]

Janet,

Do you have any further information on this "gentic" predisposition among certain Connie lines? Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

Thanks,
Erin
No, I don' remember any specific lines being mentioned. But try asking Marynell. I think she had access to the raw data.

[Wowelsh]

I also believe that this has a heritable element to it. I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit that I have a few ponies who are absolutely obese...with the ability to move freely over 8 acres and regular trims we have never had a case of laminitis. I don't have the time to exercise all of them and just refuse to lock them in dirt pens.

A long time pony breeder told me long ago that she believed there is a "founder gene". When people who have been breeding longer than I've been alive offer me info, I tend to listen up.

JMO, but I would never include a pony who had a history of laminitis in my breeding program...no matter how fabulous it was otherwise.

[Windswept Stable]

My thoughts are that it is coming from both factors... both genetic predisposition compounded by environmental influences --i.e. being kept fat as a tick to show or else lack of monitoring on lush grass. I would be terrified to keep ponies on lush grass 24/7.

I rarely keep ponies on grass 24/7. I had just started boarding a pony 3 winters ago for someone and it foundered on me-- IN THE dead of winter.. not a blade of grass to be found. The pony was as FAT as a sherman tank. obese. Her founder was due to metabolic reasons. The owner's vet said to always watch this pony's daughters --because now their chances of foundering were much much higher. I dont know if that is a scientific fact or not - daughter vs son? But I do have 2 of her daughters. One is in foal now, a very very well bred gal -- but she has a cresty neck.. and I had a harder time getting her to cycle before getting her in foal. Young pony too- 6 yrs old. Interesting enough, I have the younger sister (now 4) and she is just the opposite. We are in the opposite situation with her-- she is lean --in what I consider good growing weight---BUT she needs to be FAT to show in model classes!

I think everyone knows the farrier saying... as I have heard it multiple times from multiple farriers... there are two kinds of ponies ,
The ones that HAVE foundered, and the ones that WILL founder.

[UnderTheSonWelshCobs]

I think everyone knows the farrier saying... as I have heard it multiple times from multiple farriers... there are two kinds of ponies ,
The ones that HAVE foundered, and the ones that WILL founder.

If my farrier said that he'd be looking for a new client. That's simply not true. I have MANY ponies. The "founder" type too... minis and shetland types. I do pony rides for a living we use little grade mini types for that. I have one 26, one 19, one 17, several in the 8,9,10 category and not ONE of them has ever had even so much as a bout with laminitis never mind founder.

They are on grass all the time. I do bring them in during the day to keep them out of the sun and to work with them but they aren't "restricted". They get *gasp* fed good amounts of feed (beet pulp + purina Ultium) and they even get timothy hay or Orchard/Alfalfa (whatever is available). I don't feed coastal.

The ONLY lamanitic pony I have is one who came to me off a DIRT lot, thin and foundered. Most of his issue now is mechanical. I keep a grazing muzzle on him when turned out and I do feed him LOW STARCH (protein is not the issue that's very old thinking) but I have no proof any of that is his issue. He is laminitic on and off with no apparent trigger. He is not fat, has no crest, does not get fat pads on his body. I can feel his ribs year round though he's not "skinny" in any way. He sheds out great and has no apparent cushings issue. So who the heck knows!

I too believe in a heritable factor. I, like another poster, would never bring a laminitic pony into my breeding program (if I still had one). I used to breed Welsh Cobs and crosses. I've never had ANY problem with my Cobs they've never had a restricted diet and I don't keep them thin.

It's simply not true that there are only ponies that have and ponies that will. When people say that I gotta admit it's like nails on a chalkboard to me. I've known people who refuse to buy an appropriate sized pony for their child because they don't want a pony around it will founder. I know others who don't feed their ponies well because it will founder. That is such uninformed thinking. My own vet told me that you cannot fast or feed inadequately a laminitic pony or you will.. yes... cause them to FOUNDER!!

[Daventry]

He is laminitic on and off with no apparent trigger. He is not fat, has no crest, does not get fat pads on his body. I can feel his ribs year round though he's not "skinny" in any way. He sheds out great and has no apparent cushings issue. So who the heck knows!

Those can all be signs of a pony who has had Insulin Resistance problems for quite some time. Initially, they "can" start off with similar symptoms to Cushing's, but then end up being on the thin end of the scale, as far as weight goes. If you are feeding him beetpulp with molasses, that will do it!

[Windswept Stable]

If my farrier said that he'd be looking for a new client. That's simply not true. I have MANY ponies. The "founder" type too... minis and shetland types. I do pony rides for a living we use little grade mini types for that. I have one 26, one 19, one 17, several in the 8,9,10 category and not ONE of them has ever had even so much as a bout with laminitis never mind founder.

They are on grass all the time. I do bring them in during the day to keep them out of the sun and to work with them but they aren't "restricted". They get *gasp* fed good amounts of feed (beet pulp + purina Ultium) and they even get timothy hay or Orchard/Alfalfa (whatever is available). I don't feed coastal.

The ONLY lamanitic pony I have is one who came to me off a DIRT lot, thin and foundered. Most of his issue now is mechanical. I keep a grazing muzzle on him when turned out and I do feed him LOW STARCH (protein is not the issue that's very old thinking) but I have no proof any of that is his issue. He is laminitic on and off with no apparent trigger. He is not fat, has no crest, does not get fat pads on his body. I can feel his ribs year round though he's not "skinny" in any way. He sheds out great and has no apparent cushings issue. So who the heck knows!

I too believe in a heritable factor. I, like another poster, would never bring a laminitic pony into my breeding program (if I still had one). I used to breed Welsh Cobs and crosses. I've never had ANY problem with my Cobs they've never had a restricted diet and I don't keep them thin.

It's simply not true that there are only ponies that have and ponies that will. When people say that I gotta admit it's like nails on a chalkboard to me. I've known people who refuse to buy an appropriate sized pony for their child because they don't want a pony around it will founder. I know others who don't feed their ponies well because it will founder. That is such uninformed thinking. My own vet told me that you cannot fast or feed inadequately a laminitic pony or you will.. yes... cause them to FOUNDER!!


Glad that it is so easy for you.
Sadly founder does happen. Even in the best managed and best intended programs. If it were so simple to manage, someone would be rich with finding the "cure" because I do not know too many owners that indend to founder their ponies.
Honestly, I think geographics may play an important rule too. and honestly--there are probably as many interventions as there are posters for treatment of laminitis.
-it was in favor to bute and vasodilate during a laminitic spell, and now from what I just heard this week, the new theory trial out there - is vasoconstrict and antihistimanes. Too much bute and they move to much--increasing the chance of rotation. I am not saying what is right or what is wrong--just that there are many theories out there--and until one is scientifically proven-- who knows what is best?
-Personally, for those laminitic bouts that some get no matter what-- I have found the
chastberry herb in EVITEX seems to really help. A pony breeder of 40 years recommended it to me and swears by it.

[quicksilverponies]

I agree with you Patti. I have had ponies in my breeding program that have foundered before I purchased them. But who knows if it is genetic predisposition or the type of care the pony received with a prior owner that caused the founder. I certainly would never rule out a broodmare for just that reason. Also, the grass in some areas is WAY different from the grass in other areas concerning its nutritional content. Keeping ponies out 24/7 on grass in Florida is not at all the same as keeping them on grass 24/7 in TN or even here in Ohio. I have dealt with many many foundered ponies doing rescues in years past and there are just too many variables involved to be able to make generalizations in breeding. I have not had a pony founder while in my care, but I am probably much more familiar with what to look for in a potential case than some people might be. And that is not to say that it won't ever happen in the future.

[UnderTheSonWelshCobs]

Those can all be signs of a pony who has had Insulin Resistance problems for quite some time. Initially, they "can" start off with similar symptoms to Cushing's, but then end up being on the thin end of the scale, as far as weight goes. If you are feeding him beetpulp with molasses, that will do it!

He gets no beet pulp. He gets WellSolve low starch, he's the only one I give coastal hay to and he is muzzled. Not a lot more I can do to keep the starch out of his diet.

There's no rhyme or reason to his bouts. We've tried to track it but is seems untrackable. he came to me with the issue, did well for over a year with proper diet and trimming, then out of the blue had a bout. Got over it, did great for awhile then bam out of the blue another bout.

For my others the beet pulp is without molasses when I can find it but I rinse the hell out of all my beet pulp because I worry about all the sand I see in it more than the molasses.

My most "IR" looking mare has the greatest four feet I've ever seen.

I never said it was "easy" for me Windswept. I'm just saying there aren't only two kinds of ponies "those that have and those that will". There are many many many ponies that never have a bout of laminitis or founder in their whole life. I've known TONS. They never required anything "special" and they never had laminitis or foundered. So that whole "only two kinds those that have and those that will" really gets on my nerves. I've seen many people forgo getting wonderful ponies for their kids because people have told them that. I've had many people balk at buying a pony when I was a breeder because they were told the same thing.

I know as many horses who have had laminitis as I know ponies. And here's the kicker.. generally ponies recover much more easily. One of the vets I know specializes in founder. She says it's much harder on horses than ponies. She's rather deal with a pony founder any day of the week.

I also know TWO animals that "foundered" due to whiteline disease. It was one front foot in both cases. Neither of them were nutritional cases but they were treated as such anyway. It was a disaster for them. I finally took over their care and they both recovered fully with no further issues. No special feeding requirements. There are a lot of causes for laminitis out there that don't involve food at all.

Horses founder as a result of laminits. Not all laminits ends in founder. The key is catching it quick and treating it aggressively to avoid rotation aka "founder". I see the terms being used to mean the same thing.

[Windswept Stable]

I agree with you Patti. I have had ponies in my breeding program that have foundered before I purchased them. But who knows if it is genetic predisposition or the type of care the pony received with a prior owner that caused the founder. I certainly would never rule out a broodmare for just that reason. Also, the grass in some areas is WAY different from the grass in other areas concerning its nutritional content. Keeping ponies out 24/7 on grass in Florida is not at all the same as keeping them on grass 24/7 in TN or even here in Ohio. I have dealt with many many foundered ponies doing rescues in years past and there are just too many variables involved to be able to make generalizations in breeding. I have not had a pony founder while in my care, but I am probably much more familiar with what to look for in a potential case than some people might be. And that is not to say that it won't ever happen in the future.

Very well said. And I agree 100% that keeping ponies out on the gras 24/7 in Florida is a whole different can of beans than keeping them on the grass here in VA or in TN or OHIO. Georgraphic Differences. What works for Son down in Forida may well send my herd into a disaster.
And I also do not eliminate a nice broodmare because of a prior founder, because as Melinda says--there are too many factors to conclude that it was pure genetics.
So, Son--I get it-- the two kinds of ponies statement is your pet peeve. Was not trying to get your beef. It's a generalization and was meant as no harm. I will continue to say it--because all in all--it has never caused my sales any problem. I would rather potential buyers be overly cautious than to allow a problem to happen. And I totally agree, founder on a horse is much more difficult to treat/overcome.
Actually, one of my grand old mares is having one of those episodes right now --the episodes that you describe. FOR NO REASON. I have been the most cautious with her, fed her well (not overly, but well and low starch)..protected her from high fructose early grass.. to no avail.
I hope to get her in foal. Not only because she is extremely well bred and one of my best producers, but she is also much easier to manage while she is foal. I am not convinced her problem is genetic, actually I have to wonder with some of these easy episode ponies--could they have a miniscule pituitary tumor or something wacky like that going on?

[VirginiaBred]

Don't limit founder to ponies, welsh or otherwise. We took on an Arab mare years ago for a client that had foundered so badly more than once she was pitiful.

We seen horses founder also. It's a nightmare.

[UnderTheSonWelshCobs]

Wind.. I would think if you have trouble getting her in foal you are looking at some form of metabolic issue whether caused by the pituitary or something else. I know with IR (like with diabetics) the progesterone can be all wacky which will cause problems carrying a foal

I just inherited my farrier's ponies because.. yeah.. I needed TWO more to take care of. The little mare screams some sort of issue like cushings. She is on and off laminitic (he tells me I haven't had her long enough to know) but her feet show NO signs of ever having rotation. She supposedly heaves in summer and is a no sweater though I saw her sweating yesterday. He also reported that the last couple of times he bred her she didn't carry the foal. She'd had foals in the past. Seems as her issues get worse her ability to carry a foal was lost. Not that she ever needed to be bred*LOL*.

I'm thinking of trying the whole chaste tree berry thing with her. I'm going to try it on the other pony I inherited with the hoof issues. I hate dealing with this stuff so I have no clue how I became keeper of the hoof issue. Nothing I've ever had has been a problem.

My goal is to get her stabilized and find her and her buddy a new home. I don't need more ponies. I really can't even afford to deal with these two as it is. But I just don't know what else to do, I couldn't say no when he asked me to take them after he lost his property in a divorce.

[VirginiaBred]

I'm thinking of trying the whole chaste tree berry thing with her. I'm going to try it on the other pony I inherited with the hoof issues. I hate dealing with this stuff so I have no clue how I became keeper of the hoof issue. Nothing I've ever had has been a problem.


If you do try that, would you please start a new thread about how it did or did not help? I've heard about it for years but never tried it either.

[Windswept Stable]

If you do try that, would you please start a new thread about how it did or did not help? I've heard about it for years but never tried it either.

We do need a new thread..but the chasteberry in-- Evitex... I had my mare stabalized on it... but decided to take her off of it because she was what I thought "too thin" actually she looked like a concentration camp mare... but anyway... 8 weeks after stopping it-- Here we go again with a bout of it.. I just ordered a new gallon jug of it yesterday.. hope it gets here soon to help ease this mares situation. It really helped last time. And this time--I am NOT taking her off. Sandy O Brian swears by the stuff..
It also helped the other mare that I bought with sore feet --Watercolor, but she is doing ok without it since last fall, but I do keep her on a magnesium supplemented daily vitamin


Here is the website

http://www.emeraldvalleyequine.com/

I do not know if one can get the stuff at a health food store or not--- and if so-- what the comparable doseage would be.

[VirginiaBred]

Cool. Thanks Patti!

[092556]

I agree with...
Very well said. And I agree 100% that keeping ponies out on the grass 24/7 in Florida is a whole different can of beans than keeping them on the grass here in VA or in TN or OHIO. Georgraphic Differences. What works for Son down in Florida may well send my herd into a disaster.

I was wondering if the footing, the hardness of the ground might also be a factor. Here in Florida the ground is so much softer and more forgiving than the ground at a friends farm in Kentucky which was like concrete except when it rains. What is the ground like in your area?

I was also wondering if there is any data on ponies foundering Geographically?
Do ponies founder easier, quicker or what ever you want to call it in areas that have good quality grass?
Is the grass a better quality be cause the soil isn't soft sand which allows the nutrients to leach away from the roots.
Would a pony that is prone to founder be easier to manage in the south?

This has really been an eye opening thread, I have never (knock on wood) had any thing founder. But after reading this thread i'm worried, here is a picture of my candidate for founder. She (section B Welsh, 13.1, 14 yrs old) was very obese when I got her 3 years ago. The only time she ever lost any weight and just looked fat was when she was nursing her 5 month old colt. She is scratching on a tree in the yard, she is the roaming gnome. She is officially on a diet.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa170/hacooke/IMG_3996.jpg