Kyra Kyrklund next project : Lusitano Stallion PSL Rico [Archive]

FillyMe

Mar. 3, 2009, 09:55 PM

Very cool to see KK on a Luso. I have a question though, what do you mean by training the half pass and even the changes require a lot of work? I have a Luso and doing a lovely half pass on him is so easy. All his lateral work is pretty easy actually. We are still perfecting the changes. No problem in one direction but still a tad late behind in the other. He happens to have amazing trot lengthenings too. Just curious since I had never heard that before about the half pass. Thanks.

FleetwoodStarr

Mar. 4, 2009, 02:03 AM

The horse looks great, and as a lover of the baroque horses I'm excited Kyra is riding one with the intent of showing. However, is it just me or does his hind end look weird in the trot? It certainly is stoppping him engaging, it just looks odd- I'l be curious to see a conformation pic.

pintopiaffe

Mar. 4, 2009, 03:27 AM

Some of the most athletic Lusitanos have some of the most sloped hind ends. There was a recent article that says it correctly (it's 3:33, I've just gotten off a 10hr shift ;) ) but a moer angled croup (vs flat) and lower set tail are common in certain lines, and seem to go hand in hand with the more baroque heads. It is different to the eye not used to it.

As a breeder slowly evolving my program to Iberian lines along with my baroque pintos, I'm THRILLED to see another in the top spotlight. As a rider, I have come to immensely respect and value the soft back and easy trainability of the Iberian.

I too do not understand the comments about half pass. I've been riding Lusos at my teacher's for a decade... from High School schoolmasters (airs) to green beans. Lateral work is usually very, very easy with them. Just as many of them have FABULOUS extensions as any cross section of any other sporthorse breed I've known... different lines are bred for different work. They are, afterall, originally bullfighting and basically 'ranch' horses bred for work, a few lines bred for parades and showing off... but different strengths in each line--and of course each individual...

slc2

Mar. 4, 2009, 05:29 AM

People who look at the horses with an unbiased eye can usually see that while the horse may go sideways very willingly, there is a lack of ability to develop suspension in the half pass.

CapitolDesign

Mar. 4, 2009, 09:18 AM

I love Kyra K's riding and limited exposure I have had to her training style.

ButterflyIris

Mar. 4, 2009, 10:45 AM

He is gorgeous :)

It will be interesting to see how competitive he is.

I guess they'll be doing a running braid?

dutchmike

Mar. 4, 2009, 07:45 PM

unbiased

:D:D:D:D Roflmao that coming from you

slc2

Mar. 4, 2009, 08:10 PM

is "biased" Dutchmike-ese for 'didn't agree with Dutchmike about something in the past' :D

I have no 'breed bias'. I love 'em all, and try to understand the strengths and weaknesses of each breed and each individual horse.

dwblover

Mar. 4, 2009, 09:48 PM

He is so beautiful! I can't wait to see him in action.:)

FleetwoodStarr

Mar. 4, 2009, 10:18 PM

PintoPiaffe- Some of the most athletic Lusitanos have some of the most sloped hind ends. There was a recent article that says it correctly (it's 3:33, I've just gotten off a 10hr shift ;) ) but a moer angled croup (vs flat) and lower set tail are common in certain lines, and seem to go hand in hand with the more baroque heads. It is different to the eye not used to it.

The correlation between the hind quarter conformation and head conformation is interesting. I've been around PREs and Lippies, but not to many Lusitanos. I've seen some sloping hind quarters on the other baroque breeds, this one just looked more extreme than I've seen on the other breeds. I've also noticed in the horses I've seen that the sloping hindquarters predisposes them for engagement and collection, which why I'm interested in seeing his conformation shot, as it is clear his hindquarters are not getting in the way :)

As a breeder slowly evolving my program to Iberian lines along with my baroque pintos, I'm THRILLED to see another in the top spotlight. As a rider, I have come to immensely respect and value the soft back and easy trainability of the Iberian.

I agree, its wonderful (and not surprising in my opinion) to see more top riders bringing in the occasional top quality PRE/Lusitano.

pluvinel

Mar. 5, 2009, 06:15 AM

People who look at the horses with an unbiased eye can usually see that while the horse may go sideways very willingly, there is a lack of ability to develop suspension in the half pass.

The Lusitano was never bred to have suspension in the half pass....suspension, by definition, makes you slow. You don't want to be slow in the bull ring.

This video's been around, but worth re-watching...this is what the Luso was bred for
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgG_Gwy7Ysg

Rusty Stirrup

Mar. 5, 2009, 06:28 AM

Somehow I'm led to believe that if KK is working this horse that she feels he must have the suspension and talent necessary. But, of course, we could clue her in........

slc2

Mar. 5, 2009, 07:09 AM

Exactly. The horse looks fantastic and I'm pretty sure a horse that Kyra Kyrkland would wind up with would be rather capable. But that doesn't mean all the Lusitano and Andalusians are the same as this horse, or even, that the best of them are exactly the same as other types of horses.

Suspension is NOT something you want in a ranch horse or a speed horse, but for perfect using gait the horse should only lift his feet clear of the ground sufficiently to be nimble and handy, not bend his knees and hocks any more than he needed to. For speed a horse's gait should be as flat as possible; most speed comes from the speed with which the legs are drawn forward and there's a very minimum amount of bend of hocks and knees and lift that goes along with speed.

The Baroque breeds are not bred solely for speed, and a small amount of suspension doesn't affect speed, so I don't quite go with that argument, but the key with suspension is that it involves body lift as well and that is not something that is desirable with a working horse.

The problem is any more than necessary upward lift in the gaits, whether of the body (suspension) or the legs themslves, is wasted motion, and while it improves the horse's ability to do dressage, it represents an unneccessary expenditure of energy as well as disturbing the rider's position with stronger motions of the back and lifting of the back. The Andalusians and Lusitano horses were developed as multi purpose horses, not dressage horses, even so individuals still have dressage traits - just look at this one.

freestyle2music

Mar. 5, 2009, 08:19 AM

dutchmike

Mar. 5, 2009, 08:44 AM

There is(was)? an american breeder in Portugal called Rex Henry who managed to breed some with a incredible natural suspension specially xerxes had just as much if not more then a lot of WB's and there are more breeders doing so nowadays. Lusitanos bred mainly for bullfights are in days passed.

amdfarm

Mar. 5, 2009, 10:43 AM

The Lusitano was never bred to have suspension in the half pass....suspension, by definition, makes you slow. You don't want to be slow in the bull ring.

This video's been around, but worth re-watching...this is what the Luso was bred for
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgG_Gwy7Ysg

That video was FABULOUS and that's one of my favorite songs. That horse looks better than some stock horses bred for working cattle. Those spins, tucks and runs, half passing at warp speed. Wow. Thanks for sharing that, I hadn't seen Merlin, but he's awesome.

Good luck to KK and Rico.

Lieslot

Mar. 5, 2009, 01:04 PM

Urggg, wished I hadn't watched this video. Yup, horse moves awesomely, but I can't stand the blood on the poor bull :cry:. Was not enjoyable to me, stopped watching halfway.

Any other videos out there of Lusi's at work, then without the bull involved? I think I'll do youtube search.
So what's the avg size of this breed? 15hh to 16.2hh?

Can't wait to see Kyra in action with him, picture looks wonderful.

Lieslot

Mar. 5, 2009, 01:25 PM

slc2

Mar. 5, 2009, 07:23 PM

"This video was fabulous"

I have not sat and cried while I watched a video for a long time, but that video had me sobbing. Bull fighting with man or beast is disgusting. That horse's sides are bloody from the spur BEFORE the bull hit him, and then he gets jabbed with the bull's horns. Horses do not 'like' such things.

dutchmike

Mar. 5, 2009, 07:49 PM

"This video was fabulous"

I have not sat and cried while I watched a video for a long time, but that video had me sobbing. Bull fighting with man or beast is disgusting.

Ok specially for you. The bull gets his revenge;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJh2dXx73bA&eurl=http://www.cavalonet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=1721

quietann

Mar. 5, 2009, 08:07 PM

Okay, answering my own post really, I didn't know anything about Portugese equitation, but waw, interesting.
I just watched this, quite cool really. :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=channel
Doesn't this seem a real fun way of practising some dressage movements.
I think I need to get my ring organised, buy some flowerpots, rails etc... :D

This has popped up in a couple of places recently. I love the idea and do wonder if my wicked fast little maresy would enjoy it (once she was done spooking at some of the obstacles!)

dutchmike

Mar. 5, 2009, 08:07 PM

Okay, answering my own post really, I didn't know anything about Portugese equitation, but waw, interesting.
I just watched this, quite cool really. :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=channel
Doesn't this seem a real fun way of practising some dressage movements.
I think I need to get my ring organised, buy some flowerpots, rails etc... :D

It actually started in Italy and is taking the world by storm. They even have European and world championships now
http://www.workingequitationuk.com/

narcisco

Mar. 5, 2009, 08:45 PM

Did that guy die? Why did he get off the horse and tease the bull? Translate, please, then explain.

dutchmike

Mar. 5, 2009, 08:56 PM

Did that guy die? Why did he get off the horse and tease the bull? Translate, please, then explain.

He got pissed because the bull hit his horse so he dismounted to show the bull that he wasn't happy so Joao who weighs roughley 170 lbs wet thought he could impress a +1200lbs bull ;). Yeah he survived , is fine and learned a very important lesson don't screw with a bull.lol

Tanyanoel

Mar. 5, 2009, 09:01 PM

dutchmike

Mar. 5, 2009, 09:15 PM

Sorry, it was hard to appreciate everything because my eyes were glued to the sides of the horse that were bloody from this guys spurs. I would move of the leg quickly too if I was being spurred that deeply.

I'm afraid it is very common and ofcourse on a dark horse not so noticeable. It has always bothered me to. Having said that and having tried bullfighting once it really is a matter of live and death and a little misstake can cost dearly. It makes eventing look like a walk in the park. Like I said I tried it once and never ever again. I like to live. Ofcourse it also cruel for the bull but on the other hand they have a better life then any calf that is being raised for veal meat or any pig that is being raised for meat etc etc.

slc2

Mar. 6, 2009, 06:23 AM

The bull doesn't 'get his revenge', it is just another animal getting abused, bulls don't understand 'revenge' that is a human subject. Bullfighting is a human invention.

dutchmike

Mar. 6, 2009, 08:11 AM

Bullfighting is a human invention.

Yep just like rodeo, keeping dogs on a short chain, growing pigs in a stall without any room to move in , zoo's etc etc it is all cruel in some way. Mental distress sometimes is worse then fysical distress. I agree it is far from perfect but on the other hand I know if I had a choice between being born and be stuck in a cubicle since day one with hardly any light standing in my own crap etc etc untill the day I die 24/7 or growing up free and with no worries and then being send to war for whatever reason it would be a hard choice to make. I don't defend bullfighting but I don't condem it either. I see it as it is. We are far from living in perfect world

egontoast

Mar. 6, 2009, 08:22 AM

if I had a choice between being born and be stuck in a cubicle since day one with hardly any light standing in my own crap etc etc untill the day I die 24/7 or growing up free and with no worries and then being send to war for whatever reason it would be a hard choice to make.

argument- FAIL.

reminds me of someone's ex boyfriend when faced with the multitude of reasons for her declining to continue the relationship. "Yes, but I didn't BEAT you."

dutchmike

Mar. 6, 2009, 08:59 AM

argument- FAIL.

reminds me of someone's ex boyfriend when faced with the multitude of reasons for her declining to continue the relationship. "Yes, but I didn't BEAT you."

Really?. So lets make this hit home a bit more. Is it better to live free for 5 years free ,having all the food you need and then die or is this scenario better?. You just turned one and a bit they throw a saddle on you ,make you run untill you are really close to getting a heart attack over and over again if you don't win they disgard you and you either end up at the meat man or if you are one of the very few lucky ones that get a good home and get used for something else or maybe the strain is to much on the track and you actually make your leg snap like a toothpick. Is it perfect?. Anything that involves animals in captivity has a certain cruelty factor no matter how much we luv them or how much we think we take care of them. In that case the looney PETA people are right but will I stop riding horses ,having my dog stop eating chicken, steak or whatever for it. No way Jose.

Bullfighting and other animal stuff is like discussing abortion you have pro life and pro choice and it will never ever get resolved. Just the way it is.

Just to add that no animal has a choice to choose like humans have in a relationship. An animal might really dislike its owner but they cannot walk away yet the human can walk away from their animal(pet) anytime they feel like it so you cannot compare human to human relationships to human -animal relationships ;). I think there are plenty horses that would love to say " I want to leave because you beat me"

Shiaway

Mar. 6, 2009, 10:35 PM

In the words of one of my favorites:

"And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?"

Anyway, to get back to the original topic. I notice whenever a lusitano thread comes on here we always have to post negatives about the breed. Why not just appreciate them for their good points and acknowledge that they might have some challenges? Why always jump to stereotypes?

Because they're not the "normal" dressage horse? So don't buy one and let those of us who like them, enjoy them.

I have an average lusitano. Well I consider him average but maybe you would think him sub-par or something. I don't know. But anyway, lateral work has always come very easy to him. He was taught, not by me, very correctly and if you can sit you can do some very nice lateral work on him. Not just going side ways like crazy. Well I have that problem in the canter HP but that's because I can't sit down. My trainer doesn't have the problem at all. And the few seconds I can sit down I don't have the problem either. So it's all about the rider.

I don't think it's entirely fair to lump an entire breed together and say that they have trouble doing HP etc. Especially because in Brazil they are breeding more and more sport-horse types now.

There are more and more competing at the bigger shows than there used to be. I don't think it's just a fad. People were doing dressage on these horses for a long time before modern dressage came around.

And if you haven't ridden any of them, you don't know what you're missing because they can be a whole lot of fun. They don't have the quarterback gaits for sure (nor do a lot of WBs) but I think they can do well depending on the right training etc.

And as for bull fighting I don't even open those videos anymore. I don't care how well the rider can ride the horse and how fast the horse can fling itself sideways across the ring. It's not humane, it's not "beautiful" in any sense and it has nothing to do with dressage IMO.

Shiaway

Mar. 6, 2009, 10:46 PM

PS.

When these kind of horses can make it to the GrandPrix,

Pssst. Theo. They already have.

Lusoluv

Mar. 7, 2009, 03:38 PM

OK, here's a Luso exhibition video with no bulls or blood. It's a beautiful demonstration of harmony between horse and rider. I haven't seen any WBs capable of this sensitivity and I've owned WBs and Iberians. Note rider's hand position!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG9efPyerw4&NR=1

enjoytheride

Mar. 7, 2009, 03:50 PM

Here is the horse merlin in training, there is some bullfighting but most of the video is work against manmade bull and in a field. You can hate bullfighting all you want (and I do) but I am amazed at the lateral work of this horse. Every time one of these videos gets posted it devolves into a bitchy argument about bullfighting, animal abuse, etc. Recognize that it is an awful sport while at the same time admiring the athleticism of the horse. You can do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMLUEZhNP-k&NR=1

slc2

Mar. 7, 2009, 03:52 PM

Where you are wrong is in insisting that everyone must see this video and then feel exactly what you feel and see it the same way you do.

Even taking the bullfighting out of it, I don't agree with you, and I feel no importance in being able to 'admire the riding and ignore the bullfighting', as you insist people must do. Why must they do that?

The style of riding, the brutality of it, the abruptness of it, the macho show-offiness of it, the harshness of the aids, the overuse of the spur and weight and rein, the extremeness of the performance, goes right along with bullfighting.

Frankly I find the lateral work not 'incredible' at all, but absolutely awful, the horse is running like crazy with his head jammed up and his back down and hollowed out, there's no rhythm and the horse is tight and tense, with a flat, quick gait. I'd not be surprised if after tearing sideways like that the horse can barely walk for three days.

If a competitive dressage rider rode like this y'all'd be screaming bloody murder.

The horse had blood on his sides BEFORE being jabbed by the bull. Take away the bull, the riding is still horrific.

enjoytheride

Mar. 7, 2009, 03:55 PM

I don't see blood anywhere on that horse Merlin, do you want to show me the time frame where you can see "bloody spur marks" because I see none. Where did I insist that everyone agree with me? I think you can hate bullfighting, think it is cruel, dangerous, and barbaric without loosing the ability to admire the horse working.

dutchmike

Mar. 7, 2009, 07:40 PM

Slc what are you talking about?. There are women doing it aswell for your information [edit] Nothing macho about them

slc2

Mar. 7, 2009, 07:43 PM

Macho has nothing to do with being male, Dutchmike, and the personal insult is rude, and you know it - I hope it makes you feel terribly clever to say something like.

"I think you can hate bullfighting, think it is cruel, dangerous, and barbaric without loosing the ability to admire the horse working."

That is my point, I am fully capable of separating the two, and do NOT admire the work, I think it's horrible, it goes against everything I admire and value in working with horses, and I still do not see why in the name of heaven I have to agree with YOU and admire this stuff! You admire it, fine, I don't.

Fine, take away the bull, take away the bullfighting arena, put the guy in a tail coat and a top hat and put him in a horse show, it would STILL make me want to throw up.

Why do I have to admire it? Because YOU DO? That's ridiculous. Just because you admire something doesn't mean I have to!

Shiaway

Mar. 7, 2009, 09:11 PM

I always promise myself I'll stay away from these threads and I just can't seem to do it.

I own a lusitano and I agree with SLC. I don't really admire that type of riding and especially because I own a lusitano and know how sensitive he is and how willing and brave he is I feel like it's taking advantage of that sort of temperament.

I only think showing these kinds of videos further impress upon people that lusitanos are just cow ponies, quick sensitive and fast but tight and not good in the dressage ring. Instead I have seen many videos of lusitanos being trained and shown in the dressage ring that would be a much better representation of what they have to offer to the world of dressage.

They may not have the same suspension as some WBs do but I've also seen some WBs that don't have it either. So of course there is a variety in every breed from horse to horse. I hope that Kyra enjoys her lusitano and let him be a positive influence for other lusitanos in dressage.

And SLC, I have that same thought when people laud this type of riding. If someone showed a video of a pro dressage rider with a horse whose head was that cranked in, it would be carnage.

ETA. I like how she works with this PRE:

http://www.horsehero.com/5201/5214/7954

I'm not good enough to judge what kind of quality but I feel like it's a better representation of a lusitano in dressage.

pintopiaffe

Mar. 7, 2009, 09:45 PM

Luar was the first Luso to go to the Pan Ams. He has more suspension in one hoof than most horses have in their entire body. He has it ALL. Baroque, suspension, electricfying extensions...

And a son who was in this past Olympics.

Really, when you look at how few Lusos there are on the planet, and that quite a few have made it to Nat'l and Int'l competition, the % 'ain't bad.

I'm not predjudiced, I like Iberians of any flavour, including Spanish Colonial. I'm smitten with baroque. Period.

slc2

Mar. 7, 2009, 09:47 PM

It is the horse's sensitiveness that makes that sort of riding so upsetting, Shiaway, I see that the way you described above.

The video Shiaway chose is a really lovely picture of what the best Lusitano breeders are doing, as well as a gorgeous picture of stretching and putting appropriate basics on a Lusitano. What a wonderful, quiet rider.

That discussion of stretching (on the video) is one of the best I've ever seen, I especially loved her comment about 'I don't want to 'fiddle' him down by using the reins right and left'.

dutchmike

Mar. 8, 2009, 10:35 AM

Why do I have to admire it? Because YOU DO? That's ridiculous. Just because you admire something doesn't mean I have to!

Actually , I don't. Just like to point out there are so many different cases of cruelty happening ,even here in the USA and that before you start talking about foreign cultures that first you should clean up your own country. How can I as a dutchman condem bullfighting when we do stuff in Holland that is 10x more cruel. I can't ,I would be a hypocrite. There seems to be cruelty to animals in every nation ,some intended and some unintendedbut cruel just the same. It is just so much easier to point a finger at others and call them barabaric etc, etc without looking in the mirror

slc2

Mar. 8, 2009, 01:37 PM

That's what's called 'paralogical thinking' - thinking outside the bounds of logic.

Consider reading -

http://www.indiauncut.com/iublog/article/38-ways-to-win-an-argument-arthur-schopenhauer

It's not a serious discussion of how to argue, it's a very sarcastic jab at all the ridiculous ways people TRY to argue.

One can say, 'that is cruel' without implying that one does nothing cruel in one's own country, and one can consciously not admire something well before everythign is perfect in one's own country, in fact, it might make one more aware of what's wrong in one's own backyard to sit down and think about what someone else is doing and compare it to one's home area.

alibi_18

Mar. 8, 2009, 02:25 PM

When these kind of horses can make it to the GrandPrix, we will see (the same thing that happened with Olympic Ferro) that the half passes will get more suspension, but many of these Lussies at lower levels show half passes that look very rushed.

At lower level, haven't you also seen big, long, tall warmbloods rushed into collected movements and 'framed'? (even at higher level as well....) Some are often rushing in because of their innate capabilities...it is so easy to do lateral work with such horses that it is 'fun' to do so, no matter how you do it! Which we all now will never really go far.

Just to point out those name for people to look at : Rafael Soto and his two great andalusians stallions Evento and Invasor.
Ignacio Ramblas and Oleaje another andalusian stallion. And Juan Antonio Jiminez and Guizo, a great Lusitano stallion.
Also note that John Whitaker have been the leader in England in EVENTING with Novilhero another Lusitano.

PRE, Lusi and Lippi are really really good in dressage. But in a different way we are use to see. They are made to have suspension, have good lateral mouvement and are excellent to everything that require collection. Their only usual lack is the extended gaits...and that what are made most of the dressage test today... And most of the German breed are so hard to collect naturally but have lots of extension power and so, are rush into forced frames and really bad collected movements....

There is some breeders now that are looking for the mix between collected and extended horses...Lusi X Trakhener... The best of both world.

Oh! and for Pluvinel: Yes, Lusitanos were bred to have suspension...underneath themselves and suspension is not about going slow... Suspension is a moment of waiting for the next movement, the 'where to go', the more you have; the quickest you can be. It is a different way of thinking and as nothing to do with the moment of 'suspension' you can have when doing extended gaits... When a horse is bullfigthing (for example) for sure he has to go quick but if he has enough suspension to keep off the ground one or two or three of his legs for one more sec. in order to avoid the bull and then be able to swift all his weight carefully on the outside and then jump back into position...that is suspension. It seems to go fast, and it does, but at the same time it isn't. Decomposition of the movement that is suspension. And Passage is so natural for them which is the best example of suspension.

pluvinel

Mar. 8, 2009, 02:52 PM

alibi...I happen to have a Lusitano out of a top bullfighter's (now retired) string. When I was at his farm, we had long discussions about his approach to training for the bull ring.

My original post of Merlin was to illustrate the traditional FUNCTION for which the Luso was bred. The Lusitano was was bred as a working horse....some may not like the "work" chosen for the horse, but the fact is that the reason they have good minds and agility is due to the fact the "functionality" was needed for the rider's safety...not to show off, going pretty in a 20x60 arena presented to a subjectively judged assessment (that, shall we say, could, just perhaps, be polically influenced)....the criteria for Lusitano breeding was functionality in an activity that could result in the rider's or horse's death.

My fear is that if the Luso gets too popular the breed will go the same way a lot of working dog breeds have gone....the dogs were bred such that the working qualities were bred out of the dogs and in some cases have produced genetically defective animals....or as has already been mentioned, cross-breds will be produced and the essence of the breed will be lost.

Sorry for those offended by the bullfight, but the history of the Lusitano breed is inextricably joined with the bullring.

slc2

Mar. 8, 2009, 03:01 PM

Bullfighting was not the only or even the most prominent use, Lusitanos and Andalusians were bred for.

pluvinel

Mar. 8, 2009, 03:15 PM

Bullfighting was not the only or even the most prominent use, Lusitanos and Andalusians were bred for.

Please do not confuse the 2 breeds. Mounted bullfights were outlawed in Spain for many centuries after Phillip V declared that "gentlemen" did not do those things.

The Portuguese tradition of the mounted bullfight has remained intact for many centuries. It is called the Art of Marialva....The Marquis of Marialva was the last royal equerry to the king of Portugal. The horses bred for that discipline have been bred for the bullring for many centuries.

The top sires in Portugal are former bullfighting stallions, Neptuno, Opus 72...the horses of Veiga lineage, for which the breeder chose for the bullfighting, are considered the apogee of the exquisitely sensitive horse....

Shiaway

Mar. 8, 2009, 03:27 PM

Right, but the two breeds were one breed only about 40 something years ago.

And while lusitanos have been bred to fight bulls I feel that they were also bred to work cattle in general like our QHs. They were also used in dressage many centuries ago. They were not exclusively bred for the bull ring.

And what about dressage is not functional? Maybe I'm totally naive (very possible) but to me dressage is not just going around a ring "looking pretty" as you put it. I don't think the dog show ring and dressage are comparable at all. The movements done in dressage are done for a reason. In a test you must preform them to get a score but in the school you must use them to achieve better balance or collection or whatever the thing is you are trying to work toward at the moment. Trying to train a horse so that it can more easily carry a rider and respond to his aides serves a definite function for sure.

but in regards to changing the breed: I'm all for making the lusitano more sporty if they can still keep all the wonderful baroque qualities the lusitano has. Otherwise, you might as well just buy a WB.

pluvinel

Mar. 8, 2009, 03:37 PM

Right, but the two breeds were one breed only about 40 something years ago.

The registries are consequences of politics and turf. The fact is that there are Portuguese breeders and there are Spanish breeders.....and some of the main Portugues breeders bred for the bullring....Manuel Veiga being the most prominent in that group.

pluvinel

Mar. 8, 2009, 04:01 PM

And while lusitanos have been bred to fight bulls I feel that they were also bred to work cattle in general like our QHs. They were also used in dressage many centuries ago. They were not exclusively bred for the bull ring.
True....and the best went to be proven in the bullring.

And what about dressage is not functional? Maybe I'm totally naive (very possible) but to me dressage is not just going around a ring "looking pretty" as you put it. I don't think the dog show ring and dressage are comparable at all. The movements done in dressage are done for a reason. In a test you must preform them to get a score but in the school you must use them to achieve better balance or collection or whatever the thing is you are trying to work toward at the moment. Trying to train a horse so that it can more easily carry a rider and respond to his aides serves a definite function for sure.
Hate to rain on this parade, but the fact that there is so much controversy about dressage judging should speak to this.

Jumping has functionality...you clear the jump clean or you don't. Racing has functionality....you win the race or not....steeplechasing has functionality...clear the hurdles or not....roping has functionality....your horse is quick enough and rider good enough to get the steer....dressage has well, ummm.....5 people who gave questionable scores to a rider whose mount balked and was very disobedient.

The proof of the pudding is whether the horse is good enough to keep its rider safe in front of a 2000 lb fighting bull.

but in regards to changing the breed: I'm all for making the lusitano more sporty if they can still keep all the wonderful baroque qualities the lusitano has. Otherwise, you might as well just buy a WB.

I guess I like antiques....and I like the Lusitano as it is...or as you say, "you might as well just buy a WB"....we can definitely agree here.

alibi_18

Mar. 8, 2009, 08:45 PM

Pluvinel, sorry but your first quote didn't mention anything about what you've just said, you only spoke about Lusi not being bred for suspension...which we agree isn't true...and as nothing to do with what you are now talking about...
Only if you were using 'suspension' in a pejorative way of endorsing all the WB of the dressage ring.

You seem to be quite against the dressage ring and I understand your point but as all the other sports, dressage is and will stay the basic for all the other ones. To achieve all of those 'prouesses' in the bullring your horse must be quick, willing, responding to the infime pressure of the legs and hands...and that is dressage...I wouldn't go bullfight on a horse that is unable to do shoulder-in nor tempis! For sure, in the show ring it isn't always like that but, lets just hope for the best by keeping our mind open and try to bring up to that level horses that are different.

And the best way for not loosing the baroque quality of those horses is to train them, breed them and show them intelligently.

dutchmike

Mar. 8, 2009, 09:05 PM

There is some breeders now that are looking for the mix between collected and extended horses...Lusi X Trakhener... The best of both world.

A Portuguese prominent breeder Jorge Ortigao Costa actually is trying different mixes between Luso's and Trakheners. I have no idea what it turned out like because the last time I saw him about 5 or 6 years ago he just started. I do remember I was itching to know what would come out of that. His mixes of TB and Lusitano he did pretty well.

dutchmike

Mar. 8, 2009, 09:08 PM

Bullfighting was not the only or even the most prominent use, Lusitanos and Andalusians were bred for.

Nope they were origanally bred for warfare exactly the same with some of the upper level classical dressage movements they were all movements to get out of trouble if you were surrounded by the enemy

dutchmike

Mar. 8, 2009, 09:12 PM

but in regards to changing the breed: I'm all for making the lusitano more sporty if they can still keep all the wonderful baroque qualities the lusitano has. Otherwise, you might as well just buy a WB.

They are trying to create a Portuguese Sporthorse a type of WB mix etc. The pure Luso's will stay pure Luso's they are much to popular and to noble to go down the drain;)

pluvinel

Mar. 9, 2009, 04:26 PM

Since things in the internet have a way of morphing, let me clarify:

My posts have been to highlight the fact that the Lusitano horse was bred for "functionality" in an activity that could result in the rider's death. Sparring with the bull was a way of preparing for war. During the 800-year long Moorish occupation of the Iberian peninsula, bullfighting was used as a way of tuning up your skills in simulated war games against an agile enemy. This tradition continued after the reconquista.

I know of Lusitano breeders that are known to breed for color such as Ortigao-Costa....those that breed for temperament such as Andrade....and those that specialize in breeding for the bullring.

I am not aware of any Portuguese breeder that breeds for "bling" gaits. If those breeders are now emerging to cater to the marketplace for dressage competition horses, then I'm out of tune with the times…very possible. I was aware of some APSL controversies (er....discussions) on what the breed goals should be.

The fact that certain individual animals in the Lusitano breed do indeed have bling gaits is an accident of genetics, but not of specific breeding goals (to my knowledge). The breeding goals of the long-time, well respected breeders is for functionality. Take a look at the roster of important sires in the Lusitano breed and you will see performance (functional) horses and former champion bullfighting horses....Pincelim, Sultao, Emir, Neptuno, Opus 72. Tuim was former military (CN) and jumping horse, Cofre who sired many bullfighting horses.

Another "functional" use of the Lusitano is in driving. The Belgian driver Felix Brasseur won the 4-in-hand class at the 1996 World Driving Championships with 4 Lusitano stallions from the house of JMM (Mello). Two of those horses were sired by former bullfighting horses (Vidago and Jaquetao).

As far as inferring that I'm "against dressage," nothing can be further from the truth. My posts have intended to point out the functional roots of the Lusitano breed. Dressage, as it is currently practiced, does not have the functional requirements of the other equestrian disciplines I listed earlier. I think this is a fairly straight-forward statement of fact. Dressage is a subjectively judged sport and it is no secret that there are controversies about judging and many points of view about what to do about it.

alibi_18

Mar. 9, 2009, 10:11 PM

Probably I just don't understand your way of using 'functional' related to all those disciplines... How can jumping had more 'function' than dressage? Dressage is the root of all other discipline...you won't go far with a really badly trained horse. Dressage show might be 'corrupted' but its essence is to achieve the perfect balance between collection and freedom, the harmony within the partnership of a rider and his mount. (yeah, it sounds silly, juvenile and dreamy but still...most of it is written in the FEI dressage rules...)

The function of dressage is obtain the best of your horse, bests gaits, bests figures, best rythm, just best...and it is quite difficult...and it just can't be less or more functionnal then any other discplines...which are all looking for the same goal in competition, winning and being the best; more than often no matter what it takes.

And it is false to say that Luso or any kind of breeder are not looking to breed for the 'bling' (lets say it twice) 'bling' movements. A horse that don't have such abilities of 'showing off' and don't have such 'sparkling' gaits won't usually go far in his career even at bullfighter. The good bullfighting horses were the one with incredible amount of presence and tremendous gaits and they were finely trained....removing the bull, so you would get a bit of what show dressage should look like. And from what I know about PRE, breeders wouldn't care much about the mares because they were quite ugly and wouldn't move that good...so that is why they were only using stallions....

dutchmike

Mar. 9, 2009, 10:27 PM

I am not aware of any Portuguese breeder that breeds for "bling" gaits. If those breeders are now emerging to cater to the marketplace for dressage competition horses, then I'm out of tune with the times…very possible. I was aware of some APSL controversies (er....discussions) on what the breed goals should be.

I beg to differ. Then again I only lived in Portugal for 26 years so what do I know. Rex Henry bred a horse called Xerxes or Xer one of the two as it is a while ago my memory is not what it used to be with names, anyway both those horses where from the Andrade lines if I remember correctly out of Martini. I rode this particular horse in Golega for the modelo e andamentos and he won that year and I think he won the overall champion horse of that year aswell in 1984/85 or something.
Guilherme Borba had some mares covered by this stallion as everyone was crazy about his suspension.The horse got sold to Germany after a short time. Also you are saying only some new breeders are breeding for a more foreward moving Lusitano and again I have to disagree. Since then Oliveira Sousa& Irmaos has bred some nice forward moving and with suspension Lusitanos like Hostil who belonged to me before I sold him to a lady in the UK ofcourse I cannot let this go without mentioning Dr Ferraz da Costa and others.

I also like to add that most (not all)modern bullfighting horses since the 1980 are not pure Lusitano's used by Joao Moura, Joaquim Bastinhas (he would love to have another quarterhorse like the one he had 20 years ago and ofcourse the Great late Mestre Baptista or even Manuel Jorge all there best horses where crossed with something else

FCH

Mar. 20, 2009, 07:02 AM

Hello to all, for me Rico is the best horse that ever seen in my short life, and I have heard his sons are above average, I hope that Kyra has the greatest successes.
By curiosity I found the child in his first competition, is small but seems to be a Lusitano well above average. Thus it appears that farmers who are mainly of Lusitanian must be very careful!
see: http://www.santoandrelusitanos.com/v1/html/quadra/cavalos.asp

lusolove

Apr. 22, 2009, 12:19 AM

I love the bullfight! I think it's fabulous. I want to go have a riding vacation in Portugal and see lots of bullfights! I don't see any blood on Merlin, and I don't see that he is abused. He obviously enjoys his work;or he would have been canned from the job (or injured by the bull) if he weren't up to the task. The horse would never have made it to the ring if he weren't up to it.

It's NOT remotely dressage, so don't try to compare.

I don't condone animal abuse. But, let's not be condescending; as there is extensive, abusive so-called dressage riding going on (mostly due to ignorance) even among the very top competitors. Beginner riders are abusive to the horse, unintentionally, aren't they? And so are even international caliber dressage riders, unintentionally.

STAL

May. 7, 2009, 04:00 PM

I'm from Portugal and I work at the stud farm were Rico was trained since his 3 years old. It's really awsome to see him work. Now that he is in England I can see his sun Zefiro working and it's a fantastic horse too. we are selling frozen semen for other countries, from Rico and his father Hostil.

Visit this link and watch the movies http://www.montevelho.pt/

J Lav

May. 7, 2009, 04:31 PM

Just to point out those name for people to look at : Rafael Soto and his two great andalusians stallions Evento and Invasor.
Ignacio Ramblas and Oleaje another andalusian stallion. And Juan Antonio Jiminez and Guizo, a great Lusitano stallion.
Also note that John Whitaker have been the leader in England in EVENTING with Novilhero another Lusitano.

Late into this thread and didn't really want to get involved but feel obliged to point out that John Whitaker has never been an Eventer!!!!!

He is a Show Jumper and Novilhero was a good horse but not a great horse. I believe he was returned to Portugal as he was not going to be scopey enough for the really top level and he did not attract much support as a stallion at stud in the UK.

dutchmike

May. 7, 2009, 04:40 PM

Late into this thread and didn't really want to get involved but feel obliged to point out that John Whitaker has never been an Eventer!!!!!

Novilheiro evented before he went to John ;)

J Lav

May. 7, 2009, 04:49 PM

Novilheiro evented before he went to John ;)

In the UK? No trace of him on BE website.

dutchmike

May. 7, 2009, 04:51 PM

yes in the UK. Google it maybe you will find something.

J Lav

May. 7, 2009, 04:56 PM

yes in the UK. Google it maybe you will find something.

If he competed affiliated he would be on the British Eventing website.Their records go back along way but there's no trace. Have tried different spellings but still came up with a blank.

Could he have had a different name?

dutchmike

May. 7, 2009, 05:02 PM

No idea he evented with Rachel Bayliss and has sired some eventing offspring

J Lav

May. 7, 2009, 06:09 PM

No idea he evented with Rachel Bayliss and has sired some eventing offspring

Ahhh..interesting. I have found one reference to him eventing in an article by his owner J P Giacomini, which states Rachel competed him to Intermediate level eventing, but there is absolutely no trace of him in BE records either under his name or the results of Rachel Bayliss!!

I have found one horse sired by him who evented at Intermediate level but no more.

dutchmike

May. 7, 2009, 06:20 PM

Ahhh..interesting. I have found one reference to him eventing in an article by his owner J P Giacomini, which states Rachel competed him to Intermediate level eventing, but there is absolutely no trace of him in BE records either under his name or the results of Rachel Bayliss!!

I have found one horse sired by him who evented at Intermediate level but no more.

Alot of stuff from beofre the mid 80ies never seem to have made it to the cyberworld. I know that from trying to go back in time and finding my own placings, articles etc.