What do you think of these stallion suggestions? [Archive]

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FullCircleTraining

Mar. 2, 2009, 06:19 PM

A friend of mine told a friend of his to contact ME about stallion suggestions? What?? :confused: Anyway...

Mare is a 16h OTTB, approved Old N.A. with a score of 103. She's "sweet" but can be a bit too sensitive and reactive, and her foal by Riverman is a little bit too much for the owner. AA friendly foal with potential to be a good "all around" sporthorse for the lower levels is the goal. Temperament (quiet and sensible) and rideability are most important. Looking to add some bone and maybe a little height. Old N.A. approved stallion.

Pretend conformation isn't an issue and tell me what you think of these stallions. I know they're a bit of a hodgepodge, but the owner was very non-specific about her goals and she wouldn't tell me anything about the mare's conformation other than it's "good", so I wanted to give her sort of a broad selection.

I've also never handled foals by any of these guys, I've just heard good things from others who have/who know the stallion.

Wamberto (I know he's young and hasn't produced much yet)
Redwine
Ironman
Contango
Gatsby

Those guys make sense to anyone other than me? LOL

Dressage_Diva333

Mar. 2, 2009, 06:40 PM

It's hard to say really without seeing the mare. I've never handled any of their offspring either. However, here is my opinion FWIW on the boys you have posted :yes:

Wamberto, I like him a lot, I'm very interested to see how he matures and what he does in sport. I think he's got a very strong back, and loin, which would be beneficial for a typical TB. I love his sire, Rousseau. Overall I think he's a nicely put together stallion, I havn't seen a video, so I can't comment on that. He's got a damline that consists of jumping blood, so I bet he can jump as well. The complaint I have with Wamberto is that he didn't get Rousseau's fantastic head, but Wamberto's head definately isn't bad, just not as good as daddy's :lol: Thats actually an interesting thought breeding Wamberto to a TB mare, he seems to be very strong all over.

I like Redwine a lot, I'm breeding a TB mare to him this year actually. His neckset is so good, and he seems to be passing that onto his foals. The mare I'm breeding to him is a super mare, looks more like a WB. than a TB. Her neckset definately isn't awful, I think it's above average for a TB, but I want more shape to it. I'm really hoping Redwine can assist in that. He is such a beautiful stallion IMO! I'd love to see him in the Dressage ring, as I think he'd do quite well, but he is proving to be quite a nice hunter as well. Personally, I think Redwine really is one of the best deals out there right now. His stud fee is so reasonable, and my gosh, what a quality horse he appears to be! I think he's a very good choice for a TB mare.

I don't know a lot about Ironman and Contango, I really like both of them though. I can't say I've seen any TB crosses with them, at least none are coming to mind at this very second.

Personally, Ideal just doesn't do it for me. I like the Inschallah blood, but if I were so desperate for the Inschallah, I'd got for Ironman in a heartbeat over Ideal (yes, I know he is one generation farther from Inschallah, however, I like him so much better). I've seen several Ideal X TB's, and was not impressed at all by them. IMO, he's a foal producer, not a riding horse producer. I've seen lots of foals by him that I've actually thought were quite nice, and get rather good scores at their foal inspection. Then I see pictures of those foals grown up, and think "what happened?". I guess it may just be a personal preference, but I havn't liked many adult horses by Ideal...

Just my opinion FWIW, I'd have to say though, that Redwine would be my top pick for a TB mare out of your list :)

ancientoaks

Mar. 2, 2009, 08:49 PM

IRONMAN, IRONMAN IRONMAN.
We have bred two diverse, yet quality mares to him with amazing results. Some differences in the foals, yet incredible consistancies..
TEMPERAMENT....inquisitive, brave, QUIET, forward yet easily managed, lovely work ethic. always ears up...people loving...

LOOKS - consistantly IRONMAN (who is, one of the loveliest WB's out there..IMO, and who also happens to be an enormous talent, on the circuit in his day, and in the breeding shed)
Elegance , style, look of 'eagles' . Refinement withou weakness, strenght without coarseness.

MOVEMENT - amazing , really...both foals were way above , went way beyound the call of duty here. Lofty, light (oldest just got sold and the vet at the PPE said he was one of the lightest moving, most elegant he'd seen in years), reachy, yet always balanced..way beyound their years. suitable for dressage OR hunters. AND with our oldest (out of the arab mare) his jumping style was jaw dropping and his scope was just....well...took your breath away..

Foal # 1 - out of a 'sport type' purebred arab mare. Colt went premium at a time when arab crosses were NOT that 'encouraged'. Now three (and sold) this now gelding has impressed EVERYONE who happened to see him, vets, visitors, trainers, etc etc. TAll, tons of bone (he is 16h + as a 30 mo old), yet elegant and serene. you can do anything with him but he never sacrifices his dignity for the peacefullness.
Foal # 2 - out of a Mr Prospector bred hunter type mare (she had innate PERFECT hunter style over a fence, untrained)...Still have him, he's just a yearling now. again, elegance without haughtiness, totally peaceful (my husband trims his feet without me holding or tying or anything. colt just stands there.), jumps in a trailer, ponies behind a golf cart...just a doll baby...movement to die for, near perfect conformation...just consistancy that you don't find among most stallions especially with diverse dams...both nice girls, believe me, but 'different'....
both these colts were by far the best we have bred on over 35 years....
And his owner is a peach..totally professional and supportive. semen is incredible...

here is the colt out of the TB mare http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/ancientoaks/ironjetfullsideperfect6ADx.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/ancientoaks/ironjet817trotleftsidehillextx.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/ancientoaks/ironjet817cantergatherupxxx.jpg

and the colt out of the arab mare as a two year old...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/ancientoaks/ironstoneclvhunttrotclassxx.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/ancientoaks/ironstonemac907sideviewperfxxxxx.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/ancientoaks/ironstonejumping1408.jpg

Whitfield Farm Hanoverians

Mar. 3, 2009, 08:53 AM

Why not go straight to Rotspon & breed your own son/daughter. His semen is excellent. Easy frozen with him normally.

FullCircleTraining

Mar. 3, 2009, 09:13 AM

Thanks for the replies so far!! Great information and I really appreciate having other perspectives. :yes:

Keep any other thoughts or suggestions coming!

Amoroso

Mar. 3, 2009, 01:46 PM

Redwine has produced a good number of premium foals to date, and he has an approved son standing in Europe. The "R" line is known for good minds and rideability so that would likely be a good match. We are breeding one of our mares to Redwine this year, and I'm fairly exciting to see the results in 2010 (which feels like a long way off).

The list of stallions that you have generated are all very different, and I think you need to narrow down conformation type and desired foal type to start eliminating unsuitable stallions. Which of these stallions best fits with your mares and your desires in her?

Contango is a fantastic stallion, love his offspring and wouldn't steer you away from him at all. I believe ISF is offering a LFG on his frozen as well which is a great deal. However, on their website it mentiones not to breed him to mares with the following traits:
-long sloping pasterns
- short length of poll or heavy throatlatch
- roach back or sickle hocks
- low heel
- short strided or toed out walk

Just things to be aware of, and ISF obviously knows what works and doesn't for this fellow. If your mare is suitable, I would be picking from either him or Redwine.

FullCircleTraining

Mar. 3, 2009, 02:26 PM

The list of stallions that you have generated are all very different, and I think you need to narrow down conformation type and desired foal type to start eliminating unsuitable stallions. Which of these stallions best fits with your mares and your desires in her?

Amoroso - Having a list of stallions that are quite different was actually intentional on my part. :yes: I've been asked to give ideas to a woman that I don't know with a mare that I've never seen, and all she'll tell me is what I put in my original post. When I asked what her mare's conformational strengths and weaknesses were, she literally said "oh, her conformation is good". So I figured I'd give her a list of a few different "types" of stallions who all are known to pass on the things she's looking for - bone, temperament, and all around athleticism - and let her choose from there.

Thanks for your input on Redwine and Contango! :D

diva4ever

Mar. 5, 2009, 10:02 AM

In my opinion, you can never go wrong with Ironman. He's got the greatest temperment and passes it onto his children. They're incredibly easy to handle and work with and train. The first time his son Ironrule was ridden around the arena was on a rainy, windy night and he didn't flinch once! Most of his children are not only ridden by amateurs, they usually help to break them. He passes his conformation on, including his head and neck set, which make them winners in hunter breeding but can also later excel in eventing, jumpers, or dressage as he's got offspring in all areas. see ironmanonline.com for more info.

If you're looking at crossing specifically with TB's, his son Ironrule was reserve in the nation last year in 3 y.o. hunter breeding and will start his own breeding career this year. Ironman had a daughter this year, Inca, out of a Gran Prix mare and she is perfect in so many ways...from conformation to temperment (she loved people from day one and always tries to be helpful in whatever way she can), to jump (already in the first week). His son Ironstar was Champion at his first horseshow with his amateur owner. There are many out there out of TB mares, all which do very well in whatever demographic they show.

lalahartma1

Mar. 5, 2009, 11:14 AM

patch work farm

Mar. 6, 2009, 09:22 AM

You did not say if the mare owner was willing to work with frozen or not, both Wamberto and Contango would be frozen so that might move them off the list.

I do not have experience with either Ironman or Redwine but I will tell you that I love, love, love my Rotspon sons (again an option with frozen) and have heard nothing but RAVE reviews about both Redwine and Ironman offspring-I think you have heard it repeatedly already about Ironman. I would expect that in a number of years, those same reviews will come through about Redwine, he is just that much younger and has less progeny on the ground. In every post I have read about these stallions, I have not seen one thing that the owners have complained about so I would say these two might be your best bet.

Although I LOVE both Wamberto and Contango you mentioned that they need to be AA user friendly and if the owner is not a good rider, the movement might be too big for them?? Just a thought, I have a big moving mare and it has taken a lot of time for me to sit her trot-I also have her daughter who is a HUGE mover and she is for sale because I know I won't be able to sit her trot!

FullCircleTraining

Mar. 6, 2009, 09:37 AM

patch work - Now that's something I hadn't thought about. When I go through the list of stallions with her, I'll be sure to mention that those two might produce a big mover. Contango I would have known, had I considered it, but I wouldn't necessarily have thought that about Wamberto. Since I don't know what kind of rider she is, it's definitely worth mentioning.

Thank you so much! :winkgrin:

patch work farm

Mar. 6, 2009, 09:47 AM

Glad you took my comments for what they are worth! I can tell you that I try to breed AA horses since that is the majority of the market (and if they don't sell, my fat butt is the one that has to ride them). Over the years I have had several people ask "does he/she have HUGE movement?" My first question back is, "can you ride HUGE movement" because although I have been competing for 20+ years-I can't". I think too many times people get hung up on the movement and don't think about rideability.

Since I take my youngsters to breed shows, I have always felt in conflict with myself...at breed shows we WANT to see a HUGE trot-as riders we want a good walk and canter, the trot we can improve.

Good luck!

sporthorsefilly

Mar. 7, 2009, 08:33 AM

Yes, yes, yes!to Ironman! Not only is he a fantastic horse who produces gorgeous babies with excellent rideability, he has the very BEST owner to work with! Nancy is a lady with class and a professional with decades of expertise, everyone loves their Ironman babies!

Redwine is a gorgeous horse and his owner offers a fantastic LFG, I would work with her in a heart beat. Gorgous stallions with chrome to die for!

Another stallion you might consider if you want ammy friendly is Nevada owned by COTHer Fairvview horse center.
His daughter from a TB won the non-TB class at Upperville last year, very amateur friendly.

tri

Mar. 7, 2009, 09:17 AM

IMHO, I don't think anyone should recommend a stallion for a mare they haven't seen. That is one of the biggest problems with sporthorse breeding in this country - the lack of matching stallions to mares properly.

She's "sweet" but can be a bit too sensitive and reactive, and her foal by Riverman is a little bit too much for the owner.

Is this the holsteiner Riverman?

AA friendly foal with potential to be a good "all around" sporthorse for the lower levels is the goal.

She shouldn't breed, she should buy.

patch work farm

Mar. 7, 2009, 09:41 AM

Hmm, I believe the OP suggested the stallions she was interested in. Personally, I only provided my input based on what she said she was asking for and any knowledge any of us had about said stallions.

I do think you make a valid point, buying right now is a great suggestion, but I don't think that was what she asked about.

tri

Mar. 7, 2009, 09:55 AM

Please don't take it as a critisizm against those trying to help. I just feel strongly that this is the wrong way to go about choosing a stallion.

In addition, the list of stallions the OP gives are all very different from each other, bringing different things to the table and isn't Contango dead? and lower levels for what? and these stallions all have some very different hip angles and lengths of back, different types of croups,etc etc etc.

rocksolid

Mar. 7, 2009, 10:04 AM

Hi,
With an unproven mare, you should try to breed to a proven stallion. This will give you a better indication of the mares potential as a broodmare. If you breed an unproven mare to an unproven stallion and you don't like the foal. Who do you blame? Good luck. I also agree that I like to see the stallions in person before I breed to them.

patch work farm

Mar. 7, 2009, 02:54 PM

I do agree that the stallion choices were quite different from each other but the OP said exactly that initially.

You are correct, Contago is dead but ISF does have frozen available.

Majestic Gaits

Mar. 7, 2009, 03:58 PM

We have used Contango and produced super easy characters and good ridability. One went to a junior rider that did well.

Kathy

ancientoaks

Mar. 8, 2009, 10:42 PM

OMG gorgeous!

THANK YOU! IronStone has a wonderful new 'momma', altho still with us for a bit (thank goodness, I LOVE looking at him)...and Jet is so totally cool.and looking for that perfect place....

this is one of those stallions that seems to improve about ANY mare with consistant results across the board...my idea of a rare rare producer.

diva4ever

Mar. 9, 2009, 10:01 AM

ancient oaks---Jet is getting so big!! He's gorgeous. I've always been a fan of Stone, too. His jump is amazing. I can definitely see their daddy in both of them.

ancientoaks

Mar. 9, 2009, 10:30 PM

ancient oaks---Jet is getting so big!! He's gorgeous. I've always been a fan of Stone, too. His jump is amazing. I can definitely see their daddy in both of them.

we have sure seen it tremendously in their willingness to work, their people loving attitude...so much alike...IronStone has a bit of that arabian 'air' about him , which is charming and lovely to watch and photograph.
Jet is so comepletely balanced and strong for such a young guy, and his head, like his brother's , is just beautiful. I cannot say enough about Ironman..can't wait to free jump him just a tiny bit, if he's still here next fall...If you want to add trainabiity in factors of 10 to your foal, on top of everything else you get, then this stallion is IT...

FullCircleTraining

Mar. 10, 2009, 03:24 PM

Thanks to everyone for your continued input. :) Definitely sounds like Ironman and Redwine, provided their conformation compliments her mare's, should be the top picks (at least out of this group).